19/09/2014 Newsnight


19/09/2014

The stories behind the day's headlines. From Edinburgh and London, what next for Scotland? And what next for England? With Kirsty Wark and Andrew Neil.


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The noes win on the back of a wow, will Westminster keep its word? I

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think the people of Scotland should told the leadership at Westminster's

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feet to the fire. Now the millions of voices in England must be heard.

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Westminster will never go 50-50 with Scotland, it is never going to

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happen, they are big daddy. It means big change in our politics and

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constitution. We must absolutely accept that things are never going

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to be the same again. As the defeated Alex Salmond steps aside,

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we will ask what mice will Scotland extract for the price of the union.

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Here the Scottish referendum is provoking constitutional upheaval

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across the UK, with talk of English votes for English laws and even its

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own parliament, is it just talk? Tam Dayell has been pointing our our

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constitutional flaws for years. Good evening from Edinburgh, the

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country had no sooner woken up some what dazed and drained from the

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intensity of the past few weeks than Alex Salmond, Scotland's First

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Minister took everyone by surprise. Not even his friends saw his

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resignation coming. There will be a new First Minister of Scotland and

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it is very likely it will be a woman, his deputy, Nicola Sturgeon,

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that is for the future. Today for many people in Scotland, politicised

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for the first time, it is still about digesting the result, and a no

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to independence and wiping away tears of sorrow and join, and asking

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what will change. It has been a strange day in

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Scotland's biggest city, where voters chose yes, even though the

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country chose no. There has been disappointment and some celebration,

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some relief, but also commiseration. And as well as that, senior

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political resignation, which took many believers in the yes cause by

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complete surprise. Also tonight in the city's main square, appalling

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scenes, minor scuffles, but a group of unionists appeared to be

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organised arriving in George Square intent on causing trouble. The

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tensions between them were mainly between them and the police rather

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than a tense stand-off between yes and no. All the same it has been an

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unpleasant end to a day when most people have been absorbing the

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result. And a complete contrast to the somber but peaceful scenes in

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George Square, when yes voters heard the news of Alex Salmond's

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resignation. Events that were captured using flash photo--y.

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The yes campaign's ad hoc and disappointed heart, tears and anger,

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not just for Alex Salmond, but for their defeat. Salmond is saying he's

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standing down because David Cameron is refusing to do a second reading

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of the bill that would have given us the powers that they promised they

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would give us and that's why he's standing down. Alex Salmond's

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departure was not inevitable, although last night his

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disappointment was blatant. But today standing down with

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characteristic guile, he played to his country and his cause. It has

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been the privilege of my life to serve as First Minister, as I said

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often enough during this referendum campaign, this is a process which is

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not about me, or the SNP or any political party, it is much, much

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more important than that. The position is this, we lost the

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referendum vote, but Scotland can still carry the political

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initiative. Scotland can still emerge as the real winner. For me as

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leader my time is nearly over. But for Scotland the campaign continues

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and the dream shall never die. Have you heard that Alex Salmond has

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resigned what do you think about that? It is a shame to see him go, I

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have never been an SNP voter but I think he was a great politician. It

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is unfair, he has worked really hard for this for so long. He said he's

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standing down, he will leave? Are you making this up? I'm not making

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it up. The most dynamic and effective politician we have had

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here for the last seven years, you cannot knock that. Few here believe

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Alex Salmond deserves any kind of retribution, and his political exit

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shouldn't diminish his fundamental achievement, taking the SNP from

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what was a fringe party, to the Government at Hollyrood, and then

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creating a political movement with enghee that captured nearly half of

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the Scottish population. Yet a majority of voters found his

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arguments wanting. Yes, the number of votes 1,617,989. No the number of

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votes, 2,000926. The arguments won out, what currency would an

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independent Scotland use, were pensions safe? What about the ties

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of union. We have chosen unity over division and positive change rather

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than needless separation. Today is a momentous result for Scotland and

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also for the United Kingdom as a whole. By confirming our place

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within the union, we have reaffirmed all that we have in common. And the

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political divide may take time to fade, Glasgow, Scotland's biggest

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city, with the proud industrial as well as political past, was one of

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the places where voters chose independence, so why did no win? We

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are being asked to vote for no currency, there was never going to

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be a currency union, it was stupidity on stilts what was being

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put forward. And I'm actually surprised it wasn't a greater no. I

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think it is safe to say fear, sometimes a bit of selfishness,

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self-preservation, I know a lot of people who did say they were voting

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no it was about looking after themselves. But even in Glasgow that

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decision has brought quiet relief. This city chose yes, and the

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unionists' nerves of the last few weeks were very real. But we know

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now the vast majority of people who said no made their minds up more

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than a year ago, and simply didn't budge. Support for independence was

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always more fluid and in the end, yesterday, simply was not enough.

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Despite the three UK parties promises of more power for Scotland,

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for some, the chance of change has gone. I don't know what we are

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fighting for. So... I thought I would come down here and see people

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standing around and pushing for something but there's nothing.

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That's been filled on some of Glasgow's street with old prejudice.

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Tonight a stand-off, not between yes and no campaigners, but what appears

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to be a unionist group of hooligans bearing Union Jacks, spoiling for a

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fight. Stirring anomosities of the past. The BBC's Alan Little, who has

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been following the referendum from the start is here. We are talking

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about all sorts of implications for the unfortunately kingdom, but

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nobody saw Alex Salmond's resignation coming? When I came off

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air with you last night, the SNP and Scottish Government special advisers

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were still planning for the victory speech, that would take place in 3.

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04 in the morning. And we were making preparations to go and film

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that. It all changed in the middle of the night. When you think about

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it, it has been an extraordinary career. He bequeaths his successor,

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almost certainly Nicola Sturgeon, 1. 6 million people voting for Scotland

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to leave the United Kingdom, a decade ago that was impossible. He's

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First Minister of Scotland, not just the leader of the SNP and a lot of

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people feel that perhaps he led them all wait up and there has been a

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vote, but yes he's still the First Minister, do they feel in a sense

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destablised and like that fella said, a bit shell shocked by it all?

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People are shell shocked by it, it happened a few hours ago and nobody

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saw it coming. The implications haven't settled in. He did this

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before, he resigned as SNP leader, and he wasn't First Minister, and we

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never found out why he went. After his first ten-year stint as leader

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he as an unreadable figure. He had to make a decision, go now or fight

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the next election for 2016 and stay on for a few more years. Do I stay

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on or go at a high water mark of this achievement. Looks like that

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was the calculation, who knows. What he said today, he said he would be

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the SMP, but he believed you didn't have to be at the pinnacle all the

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time. Nicola Sturgeon became on in leaps and bounds and she was the

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more persuasive figure in the debate. She's out there and ready.

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Just after 7.00 this morning, David Cameron stood outside Downing Street

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and announced what he called a devolution revolution, which would

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deliver a balanced settlement and quick. We have heard the settled

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will of the Scottish people, and now the voices of the millions in

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England must be heard, he said. This rebalancing is designed, in part,

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finally to nail the famous West Lothian Question, first raised by

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Tam Dayell in 1977, ahead of a 1979 referendum on devolution. Why can

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MPs on Scotland can vote in legislation that applies only to

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England, such as education, but English MPs cannot vote in the same

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set of affairs. That will now end, says the Prime Minister, but how. I

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went to see Tam Dayell and asked if after 37 years he now felt

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vindicated? I don't go round saying "I told you so", I feel rather in

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the position of Cassandra, do you remember Cassandra, she warned the

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trojans of impending doom. The trouble was that nobody believed

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her. And I was in that position because you remember very well that

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there was considerable, not unpleasant, but ridicule about my

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view. Why did you not speak out during the campaign? There were

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people going out night after night to try their best to save the union.

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And it would be an absolutely betrayal by me of their efforts if I

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was to come on your programme, you asked me five days in succession,

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and say what I really thought that the promises made by the three party

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leaders were absolute rubbish. And they shouldn't have made them. And

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Gordon Brown should not have made the speech that he did without the

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authority. It is interesting you say he didn't have the authority to say

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what he did, some people say his intervention helped the Better

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Together vote in the end, but you don't think he had the authority to

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make that promise? I don't know whether his intervention made a

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difference. It may have been a plus, it may have been neutral, but my

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hunch is that it was a minus. With these last-minute promises some

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people thought well look we might as well go for the SNP and the real

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McCoy, rather than all these last-minute promises. But that

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didn't happen in the end, but the last-minute promises are here with

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us. What do you make of the way that David Cameron has reacted today? I

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don't think that the timetable is at all real. You see when it comes to

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England I'm for the abolition of the Scottish Parliament, I'm not

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negative at all. I will tell you why. Those people up in

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Aberdeenshire want to be run from Aberdeen, and not from Edinburgh.

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Finally the West Lothian Question is to be answered, with the idea that

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there will be English votes for English MPs? What would happen in

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the event of a Labour Government trying to enact domestic legislation

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do you think without the aid of Scottish Labour MPs? I think it

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would be wrong in principle for a Labour Government to impose, because

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that's the correct word legislation in England, using a Scottish

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majority, where those Scottish MPs had absolutely no say in their own

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place. But what should Ed Miliband do? Because he now says that he will

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look at any proposals put forward, what role should he play? I think

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he's got to face up to it that it is deeply wrong to try to pretend that

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Scottish MPs should vote decisively in English affairs. Even if it means

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an in coming English Government could not get legislation through,

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that is something they would have to deal with? It is a question of right

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and wrong. If the West Lothian Question, when you have done so much

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in your career, the West Lothian Question has been defining, you talk

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about Cassandra, but the defining moment. Surely you must be pleased

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that here you are, able to discuss this now, at this point where

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something radical is supposed to be happening. No, pleased would be the

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wrong word. I mean I'm extremely concerned about the future of

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Scotland. But as a parliamentarian, you must at least surely applaud the

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turnout, because people felt politically engaged? I certainly

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applaud the turnout. But were they politically engaged. They may have

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been politically engaged on issues such as deprivation and the health

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service. Were they politically engaged in the constitutional

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arrangements of the United Kingdom, I think less. It is just as well you

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are still politically engaged in the constitutional issues then, isn't

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it? Yes, but it doesn't mean that the rest of the world are. Yes, I'm

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very engaged in it. Because I don't want the break up of Britain. Tam

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Dayell, thank you very much indeed. How is Westminster reacting to all

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of this? Here is Andrew Neil in the London studio? Thank you.

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The existential threat has lifted but the remaking of the British

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constitution has just begun. Westminster's political leaders were

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so panicked by the prospect of a yes vote that they outsourced further

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Scottish devolution to Gordon Brown. He dusted down a blueprint from one

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of his old books which he said was nothing less than a modern version

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of Home Rule. Tory backbenchers and a few cabinet ministers furious at

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the lack of consultation said to David Cameron, fair enough, but only

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if England is cut in on the devolutionary action too.

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A new dawn this morning for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom

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too. For some days Westminster politics had been suspended as the

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three political parties pulled together to keep Britain together.

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But where there was harmony 24 hours Earl yes, at dawn, David Cameron

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brought discord. We have heard the voice of Scotland, and now the

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millions of voices of England must also be heard. The question of

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English votes for English laws, the so called West Lothian Question,

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requires a decisive answer. Discord because targeting Scottish and

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largely Labour MPs was something Ed Miliband just wouldn't or couldn't

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support. The man who used to live on this street, Gordon Brown, had in

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the last ten days created problems for his successors, for David

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Cameron the Tory Party were in a fury at Gordon Brown's plan to hand

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powers to Scotland and not England. Instead, the focus switched to

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Labour's response. We will deliver on stronger powers, for a stronger

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Scottish Parliament, a stronger Scotland, and I know that all-party

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leaders will meet their commitments to deliver on that promise. He

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didn't address the English question, Labour was more Scottish MPs and

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doesn't want to. After the cross-party truce of the last few

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weeks David Cameron performed a dawn raid on Ed Miliband, at 7.00 in the

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morning he announced plans to protect English MPs and English laws

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challenging the Labour leader in two days. If Ed Miliband doesn't move to

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protect English MPs, he's vulnerable to take from UKIP, and if Ed

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Miliband does move to limit the powers of Scottish MPs, he makes a

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life of future Labour Governments very difficult indeed. This morning,

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with one eye on the last vote, the Scottish referendum, David Cameron

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had his eyes firmly on the next vote, the general election.

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William Hague will now work out how to give more power to England at the

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same time as to Scotland by next January. This man, who represents

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the Tory backbenchers has some ideas.

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It makes sense to have a separate English parliament with all of the

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cost, bureaucracy that would go with that, but I think it would be

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perfectly possible to have English members of the Westminster

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parliament sitting part of the week, perhaps, on English legislation and

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part of the week on United Kingdom matters.

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But in a two-tier parliament a Tory administration would be more likely

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on English-only days, and Labour administrations on UK days. Which

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one is more important isn't clear? You don't preserve the union with a

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hollowed out parliament that doesn't sustain properly a national

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executive. That would be the consequence of this idea that has

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been mooted, that one has a UK parliament that only sits one or two

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days a week as a national parliament, the rest of the time it

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is an English parliament only. I would be very, very against that.

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Labour, furious at what they thought was Tory political opportunism, by

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the afternoon came out for a constitutional committee. Labour

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were furious at the Tories political opportunism today. By the afternoon

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they finally came out for a constitutional committee. We need

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significantly great devolution of power in England, because I think

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that we have seen devolution in Scotland and Wales work, and weed

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into to see that greater devolution in England. We have set out

:20:00.:20:05.

proposals to devolve to English local Government and want to go

:20:06.:20:10.

further. The Liberal Democrats have embraced a grand committee, Lord

:20:11.:20:16.

McKay will chair, he will allow non-English MPs to stay in

:20:17.:20:19.

parliament. Despite first move advantage, Downing Street still has

:20:20.:20:22.

questions to answer from its own. At the moment devolved politicians have

:20:23.:20:28.

a free hit. They can promise all sorts of exciting public goods and

:20:29.:20:34.

lay the blame of non-delivery on nasty, horrid selfish Westminster

:20:35.:20:37.

politicians. I want to put the stick back on them, it is important voting

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in a devolved assembly, you vote on how much they will tax you or give

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you, that should be the thread running across the settlement. Until

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we can get that into all constituent starts in the UKick Dom, I wouldn't

:20:51.:20:56.

go in a rush anywhere, and the first thing is to recall parliament.

:20:57.:21:01.

Labour won't match Tory plans on English laws, believe arcane issues

:21:02.:21:04.

don't decide elections. They are right, they don't. But UKIP might

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ensure English identity does. Parliament will have to watch out

:21:12.:21:15.

that the English, the happy men of the blessed plot stay that way. The

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Tories' plan nor more devolution means running a coach and horse

:21:22.:21:24.

through the rest of our constitution in a matter of weeks or months, we

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thought they might like to come on the programme and explain what they

:21:29.:21:33.

are doing, but they declined. It is only a 1,000-year-old constitution.

:21:34.:21:37.

We speak to Chuka Umunna, welcome to the Newsnight. We have got to

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Scottish votes for Scottish laws, with more devolution we will have

:21:43.:21:46.

more Scottish votes for Scottish law, why not English votes for

:21:47.:21:50.

English laws? Let's see the proposals from the Government. This

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is a great moment. It is good that people are talking about our

:21:54.:22:00.

politics, how we do things, sorting out this system we have. What is

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wrong with the principle of English votes for English laws? I think the

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problem with the package we have just seen is it is obsessed with

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Westminster. You have MPs talking aboutp me. Actually what we need to

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be doing is pushing power down and out of Westminster into our regions,

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into the rest of the country. Let's give power to the people. Why can't

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that done been the context of a Scottish Demos, and why not an

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English one that can do that if it wants? We haven't seen the exact

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proposals they will come forward. What is wrong with the principle?

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Let me say, the Scottish have just vote today remain part of our union,

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and now this seeks to exclude Scottish MPs. What we want to come

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up with a constitutional settlement that is inclusive and gives people

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power. Another thing that hasn't been noted on this I'm a London MP,

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there are certain issues which are devolved down to the mayor and the

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Greater London Authority. Are you going to therefore suggest I should

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be excluded from things. The power of the London Assembly is nothing

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like the Scottish Parliament? It is a red herring the London Assembly

:23:10.:23:13.

and you know it? What about Welsh MPs with the Welsh Assembly and

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Northern Irish MPs. Perhaps Perhaps they shouldn't vote on English

:23:20.:23:23.

matters? We don't want to have a second class of member. But we have

:23:24.:23:28.

a second class of MP at the moment, Scottish MPs cannot vote on any

:23:29.:23:32.

matters to do with health and education that affect their own

:23:33.:23:35.

constituencies, English MPs can on their constituencies. There are two

:23:36.:23:39.

classes of MPs. Let me ask you this point, if Scotland gets to set its

:23:40.:23:43.

own income tax, which is one of the proposals of Gordon Brown's Home

:23:44.:23:47.

Rule, the parliament in Edinburgh will set its own income tax for

:23:48.:23:52.

Scots, why should Scottish MPs vote on income tax level force the rest

:23:53.:23:56.

of the UK? This is something that is being looked at. What is the answer?

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The Government hasn't come forward with it. What is your answer? We

:24:00.:24:05.

would set up and it is not grand committee or constitutional

:24:06.:24:08.

committee. We will set up a constitutional convention, actually

:24:09.:24:10.

similar to the constitutional convention we set up prior to

:24:11.:24:16.

devolving. How does that work? We have said we will do, initially we

:24:17.:24:21.

will come forward with details on this in the next few months or so,

:24:22.:24:25.

we will have a dialogue in the regions and cities. How long of

:24:26.:24:30.

giving it? If you let me finish my sentence, of England and what we are

:24:31.:24:34.

aiming to do is a bottom-up process. No sir good the great and the good

:24:35.:24:38.

coming on to programmes like this, in term, dictating to people what we

:24:39.:24:41.

will do with the constitution. That is why so many people are being

:24:42.:24:47.

switched off from our politics. You have not asked a single question

:24:48.:24:51.

directly? In terms of the constitutional convention there will

:24:52.:24:54.

be a dialogue, we will come forward with details in the coming weeks. In

:24:55.:24:58.

the autumn of 2015 we will set up the constitutional convention, which

:24:59.:25:02.

will be bottom up, involvingive wok society. You likened it before we

:25:03.:25:06.

came on air there to the Scottish Constitutional Convention. Didn't

:25:07.:25:09.

you? It is him later. How long did that sit for? That sat for some

:25:10.:25:14.

time. Obviously you don't want a process dragging out for some time.

:25:15.:25:18.

It was exactly six years? We are not talking about six years in this

:25:19.:25:26.

instance stance. How long? The Prime Minister said Scottish and English

:25:27.:25:30.

devolution should move in tandem and go together, which could delay the

:25:31.:25:35.

Scottish devolution? You wanted an inclusive settlement, do you agree

:25:36.:25:38.

with that? I don't think there is any proposal on the day to delay the

:25:39.:25:43.

timetable, which has been set out for the proposed devolution in

:25:44.:25:46.

respect of Scotland. In terms of what happens in England, we haven't

:25:47.:25:50.

actually seen any proposals from the Prime Minister at all on that. All

:25:51.:25:54.

we have seen is a proposal to set up a cabinet committee, very

:25:55.:25:59.

Westminster focussed, headeded by a former leader of the Conservative

:26:00.:26:01.

Party, William Hague, I don't think that will cut it with the British

:26:02.:26:04.

people, given that people are hired with the whole way a that the system

:26:05.:26:10.

is run. The yes campaign, and the yes vote showed that Labour is still

:26:11.:26:14.

losing votes of white working-class males. The election, even though you

:26:15.:26:20.

won, is something of a crisis for Scottish Labour. Is that because it

:26:21.:26:26.

is widely seen as being run by nonentities that can't hold the old

:26:27.:26:29.

Labour vote together? I don't that characterisation. We have just had a

:26:30.:26:33.

no vote, by some margin that many didn't expect. You had Team Labour

:26:34.:26:40.

come together, Ed Miliband, Gordon Brown, Alastair Darling, the whole

:26:41.:26:43.

team came together and made and won the argument. If it is not run by a

:26:44.:26:48.

bunch of nonentities, other than the Scottish Labour leader could you

:26:49.:26:51.

name three members of the Labour Shadow Cabinet? Of our Shadow

:26:52.:27:01.

Cabinet. In Scotland? You have got Joanne Lamont. Kesia D ougdale. What

:27:02.:27:09.

does she do? Not entirely sure. She's education. Can you name more?

:27:10.:27:17.

No, I'm not a Scott. You don't know who your Scottish cabinet is in

:27:18.:27:21.

Scotland? I'm not a Scottish MP or a member of the Scottish Parliament.

:27:22.:27:24.

We better leave it there, I will give you the list. Thank you.

:27:25.:27:33.

Joining us now we have former Conservative and peer Michael

:27:34.:27:39.

Heseltine. You recommended a radical decentralisation from Whitehall to

:27:40.:27:43.

local Government. Good evening, can I just get your view on the West

:27:44.:27:47.

Lothian Question, do you believe it should be answered with English

:27:48.:27:52.

votes for English laws? Yes. And that would solve it for you, you are

:27:53.:27:56.

on the Prime Minister's side on that. Would that be enough for

:27:57.:27:59.

devolution in England or what more needs to be done? Well, HIV the

:28:00.:28:10.

privilege of producing reports for the Prime Minister and he through

:28:11.:28:17.

his minister, Greg Clarke, is now implementing what are pace-changing

:28:18.:28:22.

devolution arrangements. If you go to Manchester, Liverpool or Coventry

:28:23.:28:26.

and Warwick last week, they are entering into arrangements with

:28:27.:28:30.

central Government to take much more discretion into their own controls

:28:31.:28:33.

through the Local Enterprise Partnerships. Very significant

:28:34.:28:39.

funds. I mean about three months ago the Chancellor was able to offer ?6

:28:40.:28:46.

billion worth of selected programmes which had been chosen by the local

:28:47.:28:50.

people. This is only the beginning, but the idea that we have got to

:28:51.:28:57.

spend months, or in Labour's terms having an arrangement some time at

:28:58.:28:59.

the end of the next year, we are already doing these things. The

:29:00.:29:03.

essence is to do it on a bigger scale with greater urgency. What you

:29:04.:29:08.

are talking about is more decentralisation to the big cities

:29:09.:29:11.

and regions around the big cities. What has been talked about in your

:29:12.:29:17.

party? I'm sorry, sorry, we must. Let me finish the question and you

:29:18.:29:20.

can answer it? You have made a statement that is not true. We are

:29:21.:29:26.

talking about devolution to 39 component units of England. Every

:29:27.:29:30.

part of the country is included. Will they have tax-raising powers?

:29:31.:29:37.

Including the rural areas. No. It is decentralisation not devolution. If

:29:38.:29:41.

I could ask my question, what I want to know is this? Andrew listen are

:29:42.:29:46.

you interviewing yourself or me. I'm trying to ask my question so you can

:29:47.:29:51.

answer it? No, but you keep asserting things that are not true.

:29:52.:29:55.

In the deal with Manchester they have an arrangement if where if they

:29:56.:29:59.

get extra development taking place, they keep a part of the proceeds

:30:00.:30:03.

that arise from that development. They have been authorised to borrow

:30:04.:30:07.

money on the basis that there is a sharing of the returns on that

:30:08.:30:13.

money. So these are the beginnings of examples where the Government is

:30:14.:30:16.

already moving forward. No-one pretends it is the ultimate

:30:17.:30:23.

solution, but it is all already happening under this Government. Now

:30:24.:30:28.

to my question, in addition to all that, should there be what is good

:30:29.:30:32.

enough for the Scots is it good enough for the English, should they

:30:33.:30:37.

have an English demoss, an English arrangement where they set the

:30:38.:30:41.

framework and the laws in which this decentralisingation takes place. --

:30:42.:30:47.

decentralisation takes place? I don't see an idea to appeal to the

:30:48.:30:58.

majority of the the English parliament, saying all these others

:30:59.:31:00.

will have these powers but you can't. How could you seriously think

:31:01.:31:04.

a Government could ask those members of the parliament that represent

:31:05.:31:07.

English constituencies to vote for that. I don't think they will do it.

:31:08.:31:10.

I don't think the Government will ask them to, but I think if they did

:31:11.:31:16.

ask them to they wouldn't get the stuff through the Commons. What you

:31:17.:31:20.

are saying is if it is good enough for the Scots, and good enough for

:31:21.:31:23.

the Welsh, and the Northern Irish, it should be good enough for the

:31:24.:31:33.

English? I wouldn't use those words, I would say we need a decent system

:31:34.:31:37.

of governing this country and it should lie fairly across the four

:31:38.:31:41.

components of the United Kingdom. In an equal way? Equal is a difficult

:31:42.:31:46.

word because you have got all sorts of different resources and different

:31:47.:31:49.

equalisation programmes and you have to work all that out. Only a central

:31:50.:31:54.

Government can do that. You have got to realise that you are not going to

:31:55.:32:01.

hand over control to Scotland to its economy because they are so

:32:02.:32:04.

interwoven with the United Kingdom economy, as the no vote rightly said

:32:05.:32:08.

and persuaded people. So there has to be a Chancellor, you know, you

:32:09.:32:12.

can only have one person in charge of the Treasury. I got my question

:32:13.:32:16.

out, and I might even have got an answer, thank you very much.

:32:17.:32:24.

So England devolution is clearly on the agenda at last, there is even

:32:25.:32:29.

talk of new powers for Cardiff and Belfast. If it is good enough for

:32:30.:32:32.

Scotland it is good enough for the rest of us. What is this West

:32:33.:32:36.

Lothian Question all the politicians and pundits have been talking about?

:32:37.:32:42.

What is the answer? Is there more than one, two or three?

:32:43.:32:48.

Does Britain need another parliament? At the moment

:32:49.:32:51.

Westminster is the national UK legislature and the local

:32:52.:32:56.

legislature for England. So a Scottish MP can vote say on English

:32:57.:33:01.

education, yet an MP for England cannot vote on Scottish education

:33:02.:33:05.

because it is devolved to Hollyrood. That oddity is known as the West

:33:06.:33:12.

Lothian Question. If we were starting from scratch and

:33:13.:33:16.

money were no object the simplest way to answer the West Lothian

:33:17.:33:21.

Question would simply be to open a new English parliament, perhaps in

:33:22.:33:26.

Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds. We would devolve power to it as in

:33:27.:33:29.

Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. That will give you a

:33:30.:33:34.

parliament for each constituent nature in the union. They could

:33:35.:33:38.

taken a interest in local schools and hospitals and the UK wide could

:33:39.:33:43.

do federal topic, setting a UK budget, defence, foreign policy.

:33:44.:33:48.

That sort of thing. Alternatively, if you want to save

:33:49.:33:52.

yourself the cost of setting up a whole new English parliament and

:33:53.:33:57.

capital, then you could have the existing MPs with English seats to

:33:58.:34:01.

meet on their own without the other MPs to debate and discuss English

:34:02.:34:05.

matters. The so called English votes for English laws. That seems the

:34:06.:34:11.

likeliest proposal to come from the Conservatives, but the powers

:34:12.:34:15.

devolved to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, are wielded by

:34:16.:34:19.

local leaders. If you were to devolve power to England, you would

:34:20.:34:23.

need a similar sort of executive that would answer to England's local

:34:24.:34:27.

legislatures. That executive need not be very big, it is hard to see

:34:28.:34:32.

how devolution in England would work if the country didn't have its own

:34:33.:34:35.

First Minister. For example say there was a budget dispute between

:34:36.:34:39.

the four countries who would stand up for England. Suppose Labour was

:34:40.:34:45.

not collected UK wide for Government, but England had voted

:34:46.:34:48.

for a Conservative Government. Why shouldn't its voters be allowed to

:34:49.:34:51.

have the Government they chose. What kind of devolution is that? There is

:34:52.:35:01.

one big problem in introducing this constitution, England, 84% of the

:35:02.:35:05.

population. It would dominate a UK-wide federal parliament and vote

:35:06.:35:09.

itself favours at the expense of other nations. That is not an

:35:10.:35:12.

unfamiliar problem for constitution righters, it is one the US has had

:35:13.:35:17.

to deal with. We could borrow one of their solutions, we could give each

:35:18.:35:20.

of the four countries in the UK the same number of peers. That would

:35:21.:35:24.

mean the people of Belfast would have more representation from people

:35:25.:35:28.

in Bristol. It is not direct democracy but a way to aDom Kate the

:35:29.:35:33.

four nationalities within our country.

:35:34.:35:37.

Proposals for a form are likely to fall well short on that. The Tories

:35:38.:35:46.

are even cool on having an English First Minister. But massive reforms

:35:47.:35:52.

at break neck need is coming. More power is devolved from Westminster

:35:53.:35:59.

so the problem is growing, but votes for Englishmen on English topics is

:36:00.:36:03.

very rare to happen. Those walking the corridors of

:36:04.:36:06.

power, and not changing the rules of the game is often a virtue.

:36:07.:36:14.

We're not now just talking about more powers for Edinburgh. We're

:36:15.:36:18.

looking at a constitutional convulsion engulfing the whole of

:36:19.:36:22.

the UK. David Cameron has provided draft

:36:23.:36:36.

legislation in January, is that Israel feesable in

:36:37.:36:46.

I'm joined by Dominic Grieve, isn't it that David Cameron is trying to

:36:47.:36:49.

make a new constitution for the whole of the UK on the back of a fag

:36:50.:36:53.

packet? There is no doubt lots of people are saying lots of things and

:36:54.:36:58.

wanting things to happen quickly. I think it is all well intentioned and

:36:59.:37:02.

I think it is well intentioned from the leaders of all maintained

:37:03.:37:07.

parties at Westminster. But the reality is it will take time to do.

:37:08.:37:12.

One thing I'm absolutely sure about, unless we do it as a whole it won't

:37:13.:37:16.

work. The problem we had with the

:37:17.:37:20.

devolution package which I participated in parliament, is it

:37:21.:37:25.

was a top-down Westminster parts with bits of sovereignty. The

:37:26.:37:29.

message I take away from the referendum is people, apart from the

:37:30.:37:32.

question of Scottish independence, there was a bigger issue, how are we

:37:33.:37:38.

governed, a general sense of detatchment from politics. A sense

:37:39.:37:41.

of aversion to the political class who run the country. A sense that

:37:42.:37:45.

there is no difference between them and no authenticity, and a desire

:37:46.:37:51.

for change. The question for me as a politician is can we respond to

:37:52.:37:56.

this. I think we can, but whilst we certainly mustn't take a huge amount

:37:57.:38:00.

of time over it, we mustn't rush it either. Because it must be done as a

:38:01.:38:07.

whole. And the danger is that what seems to have happened is it looks

:38:08.:38:10.

to a lot of people outside that David Cameron has bounced into this.

:38:11.:38:15.

Not only that he was almost a rabbit in the headlights, I will deliver

:38:16.:38:18.

this, first draft legislation he said this morning by January. We

:38:19.:38:21.

hear the conversation that Andrew was having. What are the chances, if

:38:22.:38:25.

you are a betting man, what are the chances of delivering first draft

:38:26.:38:28.

legislation in January? We can sketch out by January. Ideas. But

:38:29.:38:38.

the idea we would have the exercise needed, in my judge, we will push

:38:39.:38:42.

this thing forward and get acceptance across the UK, I don't

:38:43.:38:44.

think that is possible. There are extra powers in Scotland.

:38:45.:38:49.

I really think people say up here sometimes that is not true. You are

:38:50.:38:52.

not going to deliver T I think there is a real retire to deliver that. We

:38:53.:38:57.

have to solve the West Lothian Question, or quite frankly England

:38:58.:39:01.

will go bang at some point, there is real resentment in the current

:39:02.:39:05.

system. Is there a way of fixing it and delivering an English

:39:06.:39:08.

parliament? I think an English parliament would be very difficult,

:39:09.:39:12.

it would be so dominant within the union. I think there are ways to

:39:13.:39:17.

resolve it within the context of a UK parliament but with English laws

:39:18.:39:22.

being ultimately reserved for legislation by English MPs. It can

:39:23.:39:29.

be done and it is complex but with goodwill it can be achieved. The

:39:30.:39:34.

Welsh devolutionlement needs to be looked at. From my time in

:39:35.:39:40.

parliament nobody knows what the paper means. We are often in dispute

:39:41.:39:49.

over the interpretation over a cack-handed piece of legislation.

:39:50.:39:52.

Thank you. We discuss the political ruction of

:39:53.:39:56.

the day with Beth Rigby deputy political editor at the Financial

:39:57.:39:59.

Times, and Steve Richards for the Independent. The big news today is

:40:00.:40:04.

that the union survived. But I would suggest that the second story is the

:40:05.:40:10.

way that Mr Cameron has now linked to the promised extra devolution to

:40:11.:40:13.

Scotland, which is a vow he and other leaders have made. Now with

:40:14.:40:18.

extra devolution for England, for they are linked, we have to go in

:40:19.:40:25.

tandem. David Cameron has played a political blinder in that sense

:40:26.:40:31.

today. He has said we will deliver as a cross-party agreement Scottish

:40:32.:40:35.

devolution. But I will layer over that and on to that a pledge to give

:40:36.:40:44.

English votes to English people. In doing so he has created a

:40:45.:40:48.

constitutional minefield. And the problem is whether he can deliver

:40:49.:40:52.

it. I would suggest he can't deliver it, on the Gordon Brown timetable.

:40:53.:40:56.

He may be able to agree the extra Scottish devolution, although there

:40:57.:41:02.

is argy bargy about that. But he cannot, starting from a standing

:41:03.:41:06.

start agree the English devolution as well? That what has changed

:41:07.:41:10.

today. He has said very clearly the pace of change is coupled with

:41:11.:41:15.

England. All constitutional change is driven by party self-interest. No

:41:16.:41:20.

party will say we will back something that harms us. However

:41:21.:41:23.

pure and noble it might seem in principle. The Tory position has

:41:24.:41:29.

been pretty consistent for a long time about English MPs having power

:41:30.:41:33.

over English laws. What has changed today is the coupling with the

:41:34.:41:36.

Scottish legislation, this is all meant to be sorted by January. It is

:41:37.:41:41.

bonkers, it won't be. The politics and the self-interest is obvious,

:41:42.:41:44.

but it can't be done in that timetable. I would say that what was

:41:45.:41:49.

clever about what David Cameron did this morning, he came out of the

:41:50.:41:54.

blocks at 7.00am, he promised to solve the West Lothian Question and

:41:55.:41:57.

resolve t he saw off Nigel Farage who the Tories were really concerned

:41:58.:42:02.

would try to present himself as a sort of English Salmond. But in

:42:03.:42:09.

doing so he set a train of constitutional consequences that he

:42:10.:42:16.

might not be able to deliver on. And the problem is that now having

:42:17.:42:23.

killed off the imminent people from the Tory Party, a few of them want

:42:24.:42:28.

the dual process to work. What you have said is right. Mr Cameron,

:42:29.:42:31.

having won the referendum and thought at one stage he may have

:42:32.:42:36.

lost it, he has done this from a sense of weakness. There was massive

:42:37.:42:41.

Tory backbench rebellion coming in against what he had outsourced to

:42:42.:42:46.

Gordon Brown and on top of that reinforce the Barnet formula for

:42:47.:42:50.

Scotland. Forget about self-industry, he had no choice but

:42:51.:42:53.

to make the offer and deliver it by the Tory MPs. What is interesting,

:42:54.:43:05.

and Nick they have broadly agreed on the principle of the English votes

:43:06.:43:11.

for English laws. But the timetable, I have heard a whole range, Rifkind

:43:12.:43:16.

and Clarke and others, saying this has to be thought through carefully.

:43:17.:43:21.

He has got them on board with the principle but real practical

:43:22.:43:29.

problems. This is Linton Crosby, sticking their feet to the fire.

:43:30.:43:34.

They are going to get Labour and they are worried about UKIP and

:43:35.:43:41.

depict Labour as the anti-part re party. Lyndon's hands are all over

:43:42.:43:46.

it, an historic day for Britain. He gets the Prime Minister to present

:43:47.:43:51.

it as a one question on the West Lothian Question which has been in

:43:52.:43:56.

the Tory manifesto as something to deliver for in a number of years. I

:43:57.:44:04.

want to ask you. Gordon Brown. The new leader of the Scottish Labour?

:44:05.:44:08.

Who knows. The man who will come to the Commons again, to fight, to make

:44:09.:44:11.

sure that Westminster delivers on its promise to the Scottish people?

:44:12.:44:16.

Yeah, well this whole thing has given him a cause, he hasn't gone

:44:17.:44:31.

through a complete met at that met huge change. When he Dame Shadow

:44:32.:44:38.

Chancellor in 1992, he felt he had to go into a tonal straitjacket of

:44:39.:44:42.

which there was no escape until the referendum campaign and he found an

:44:43.:44:46.

authentic voice. He will be player in future negotiation as well.

:44:47.:44:56.

That's it from London. Back to Edinburgh.

:44:57.:44:59.

Now Alex Salmond has failed to secure independence for Scotland,

:45:00.:45:03.

but he may have succeeded in triggering greater devolution across

:45:04.:45:12.

the UK. Has Alex Salmond with his great charisma deliver the most that

:45:13.:45:16.

could be achieved. Or has a broader political movement in Scotland been

:45:17.:45:19.

galvanised by the campaign. We will discuss that with the panel here

:45:20.:45:25.

shortly. Outside the Scottish Parliament this

:45:26.:45:29.

evening as the light faded a group of yes supporters gathered, perhaps

:45:30.:45:32.

for consolation, perhaps for company. Even handing out some

:45:33.:45:38.

leftover balloons couldn't mask the atmosphere of utter deflation. The

:45:39.:45:42.

Scottish Parliament was specifically designed by Labour, to "kill

:45:43.:45:47.

nationalism stone dead". Yet Alex Salmond was able to take it and bend

:45:48.:45:52.

it towards his political objective, firstly taking over the Government

:45:53.:45:56.

of Scotland, and then launching a bid for independence that took

:45:57.:46:01.

nearly half the country with him. As a consumate political operator he

:46:02.:46:06.

was able to exploit the unlikely scenario of being the leader of an

:46:07.:46:14.

organisation. And put himself as a Scottish every man and exploit

:46:15.:46:19.

Labour's difficulty, the Iraq War and the Blair-Brown tension, and in

:46:20.:46:23.

2011 amid a perfect political storm say hey I'm the leader of the

:46:24.:46:27.

natural party of the Government, return me to Government ah he got an

:46:28.:46:33.

overall majority, as well as killing nationalism stone dead, this place

:46:34.:46:39.

was to deprive every single party of an overall majority and he broke the

:46:40.:46:44.

system. Salmond's success didn't end there he managed to turn what was a

:46:45.:46:49.

decidedly minority taste for independence into a main treatment

:46:50.:46:54.

mass campaign that drew in disa-affected voters other parties

:46:55.:47:02.

had left behind or never reached. He was clearly no Obama, his message of

:47:03.:47:08.

hope and change got everyone's attention, the bright lights of the

:47:09.:47:18.

the media someone shone on him. -- shone on him. He managed to win over

:47:19.:47:22.

Scottish voters to the cause of nationalism. But going into the

:47:23.:47:27.

post-Salmond and post-referendum era can they hang on to them? There is a

:47:28.:47:31.

difference between voting in a referendum where you can see clearly

:47:32.:47:35.

the link between your vote and it comes into an outcome and it is a

:47:36.:47:41.

simple yes or no question. Asking them to vote at a general election

:47:42.:47:45.

might be given, it is about the link between your voice and what happens

:47:46.:47:53.

in the policy terms is mediated between political parties and

:47:54.:47:55.

discussions after the election. There is a school of thought that

:47:56.:47:59.

suggests the stars will never again be as perfectly aligned for

:48:00.:48:03.

nationalism. Not least having an old Eatonian Conservative Prime Minister

:48:04.:48:06.

pushing through a programme of austerity.

:48:07.:48:10.

In future, of course, they will trade upon what might have been. The

:48:11.:48:15.

yes campaign sold independence as this beguiling product, where all

:48:16.:48:19.

your dreams could come true. An independent Scotland can be whatever

:48:20.:48:24.

you wanted it to be. Of course it is difficult for the other side to

:48:25.:48:27.

counter the argument, which I'm sure they will make in the future and

:48:28.:48:30.

Nicola Sturgeon will make in the future. Just think what you could

:48:31.:48:35.

have had if you voted yes? Scottish nationalism clearly isn't going

:48:36.:48:40.

away. But how it moves forward after this defeat depends on many factors.

:48:41.:48:46.

Who leads after Alex Salmond and other parties deal with the

:48:47.:48:51.

grievances of question voters. If devolution didn't kill nationalism

:48:52.:48:54.

stone dead, there is no reason to think that even more devolution will

:48:55.:49:02.

do the trick either. That was David Grossman, here with

:49:03.:49:07.

me is Alan Little, and the chronicler of Scotland tomorrow

:49:08.:49:13.

Devine and one of his ancestors signed the Act of Union.

:49:14.:49:20.

A lot to chew over, big events. Tom you called the UK a failed and

:49:21.:49:24.

corrupt state. The truth of the matter is 55% of those who voted

:49:25.:49:30.

from an 85% turnover didn't agree with you? I didn't say it was a

:49:31.:49:34.

corrupted state but a failed state. It will be until there are

:49:35.:49:39.

substantial changes in it over the next several years. The changes I

:49:40.:49:46.

would like to see are these. One One is to ensure the promises are

:49:47.:49:50.

fulfilled as soon as possible. The promises to Scotland. It is more

:49:51.:49:55.

fundamentally significant to than that. To rebalance the union state.

:49:56.:50:00.

It has to be rebalanced in my view now that a we are going in a federal

:50:01.:50:06.

or that direction. If not they will be back here very soon. You said you

:50:07.:50:12.

were a you reluctant sign up for independence, you must be

:50:13.:50:16.

disappointed? I expected a no vote between 2-3%. I think Mr Salmond and

:50:17.:50:22.

I pay tribute to him is probably, well including the great Secretary

:50:23.:50:27.

of State in Scotland, during the Second World War, as the politician

:50:28.:50:32.

in Scotland who has made the greatest impact on politics. I come

:50:33.:50:38.

back to your question, which was... My question was were you not

:50:39.:50:42.

disappointed? No, because I expected it to happen. You were one of these

:50:43.:50:46.

people who was not a nationalist, in the sense of being a member of the

:50:47.:50:52.

SNP, but you saw the galvanising of the whole political discourse, must

:50:53.:50:57.

have been disappointed? I'm gutted, I would say I'm heartbroken I would

:50:58.:51:00.

say there are lots of people out there watching what has happened

:51:01.:51:07.

here. The Scots have been awarded voting no by being asked to go to

:51:08.:51:11.

the back of the constitutional queue within one day of voting. So

:51:12.:51:15.

Westminster parties can play games with one another to achieve

:51:16.:51:18.

political power. You are shaking your head? I think it is completely

:51:19.:51:22.

the reverse of what happened. I think what happened by voting no is

:51:23.:51:31.

Scotland has Regal vanised itself in an -- galvanised itself. Far from no

:51:32.:51:36.

being a relative vote. The Scots have seen it as a highly positive

:51:37.:51:50.

votealvanised itself. Far from no being a relative vote. The Scots

:51:51.:51:53.

have seen it as a highly positive vote. I think we are at the position

:51:54.:51:55.

of something great. The historian's view of whether or not the sense of

:51:56.:51:58.

nationalism was embodied in Alex Salmond and whether you think there

:51:59.:52:02.

will be a disapation there or people will feel, we talked earlier about

:52:03.:52:08.

this, there is disappointed. That whole idea that this idea that

:52:09.:52:12.

everybody has been galvanised by politics is a passing thing. A lot

:52:13.:52:16.

of people will be disappointed but a lot has been achieved. The peaceful

:52:17.:52:21.

ballot box nature of this whole discussion. How many people have

:52:22.:52:26.

been arrested? Anyone kill? Compare this I have just come from India, to

:52:27.:52:37.

the Kashmir issue. Land mass trying to breakthrough and 100 people

:52:38.:52:44.

killed every month. There has been some trouble I must say of two

:52:45.:52:47.

people. It is people falling out of the pub and that is the violence.

:52:48.:52:52.

You have to take a step back and remember in world terms to have a

:52:53.:52:55.

passionate discussion about the future of an entire people. How many

:52:56.:53:03.

people arrested and no-one killed. Isn't it extraordinary that

:53:04.:53:08.

Glasgow's second city of empire voted no. It is interesting how much

:53:09.:53:15.

of the country didn't. To have Edinburgh, Lothians, Orkneys, there

:53:16.:53:18.

is no surprise, much of the rest of the country which could have voted

:53:19.:53:21.

yes didn't. To me that was a huge surprise. We started in March or

:53:22.:53:28.

April at 31% we were told it wouldn't increase. The reason is did

:53:29.:53:36.

was because of a whole plethora groups. Those guys are not going

:53:37.:53:44.

home. They are not going home, what will they do, because if you say

:53:45.:53:48.

that Labour is stalled in Scotland at the moment. And voting SNP won't

:53:49.:53:53.

deliver you independence if suddenly there will be a new referendum. Who

:53:54.:53:59.

what does that mass of people do, do they form another movement, do they

:54:00.:54:14.

galvanise, or do they coallase for a long time. A lot of people have done

:54:15.:54:25.

it, friendship, and it needs some talking so we don't go to the

:54:26.:54:32.

talk-down ways, but just to go to a structure.

:54:33.:54:35.

We talked about Alex Salmond being the high water mark of the SNP, is

:54:36.:54:39.

it the high mark of nationalism? There was a grave mistake here, this

:54:40.:54:44.

is not nationalism. This is a movement for independence. Do you

:54:45.:54:51.

think there is a possible movement for independence? I have been

:54:52.:54:54.

getting tweets and texts today from people I met in the yes Scotland

:54:55.:54:58.

campaign. One young man who is a Green Party member says the

:54:59.:55:01.

membership of my heart has doubled in the last 24 hours. Others saying

:55:02.:55:10.

they have decided to join the SNP. Those are conventional political

:55:11.:55:14.

parties in a sense. The yes campaign was an unconventional thing, it felt

:55:15.:55:19.

more like a hobby than a chore. It felt like a carnival coming up, I

:55:20.:55:32.

met here at the Yestervil. That can't be sustained on a long time.

:55:33.:55:36.

You can can see what they are talking about in the last 12 hours,

:55:37.:55:44.

the possibility of a European movement that surround an idea that

:55:45.:55:47.

being ultimately independent for Scotland. They make it a party aimed

:55:48.:55:55.

at elections. It is a movement for independence and not nationalism?

:55:56.:55:59.

Because it is wider and deeper than the Scottish National Party. The

:56:00.:56:02.

Scottish National Party I would suggest is a minority in this

:56:03.:56:05.

dynamic, that is one of the reasons why it will happen. The genie is out

:56:06.:56:17.

of the bottle. I need a very deep warning to Westminster politicians

:56:18.:56:20.

if they think it is all over, it is not all over. In the same way you

:56:21.:56:27.

talk about the genie, and Alan talks about the Scottish Demos, will there

:56:28.:56:34.

be a corresponding English Demos. Something would have to happen the

:56:35.:56:37.

way that Scotland has been galvanised. We have been hearing in

:56:38.:56:43.

the course of the evening about the problems and about that happening. I

:56:44.:56:48.

slightly want to skis diss agree with the SNP -- want to disagree

:56:49.:56:56.

with the opinions about the SNP. Labour has a real problem facing it,

:56:57.:57:03.

I believe the SNP, oddly, post-Salmond could rebuild itself as

:57:04.:57:08.

a powerful political force in Scotland, a non-independent

:57:09.:57:10.

supporting party, but with policies with which a huge amount of Scots

:57:11.:57:21.

actually agree. His whole raison d'etre is political independence.

:57:22.:57:25.

One of the reasons why it did the impossible, and I don't global to

:57:26.:57:28.

the Scottish National Party. Is because it was seen to be performing

:57:29.:57:34.

highly competently and in administrative terms and delivering

:57:35.:57:37.

social and democratic policies to the Scottish people. If that was

:57:38.:57:40.

going to happen in England, surely there would have to be a rebranding

:57:41.:57:44.

of what is regarded as nationalism in England. So often it has been

:57:45.:57:50.

tainted by association. Actually what is wrong with the idea of

:57:51.:57:53.

building that again. Especially if we are talking about an English

:57:54.:57:57.

parliament. I don't like nationalism anywhere in the world, wherever I go

:57:58.:58:00.

there is a foreign correspondent, Alan has covered all the conflicts.

:58:01.:58:05.

But nationalism seen from the outside is an unattractive thing.

:58:06.:58:12.

Every nationalism thinks it is unique. That is complete nonsense

:58:13.:58:17.

what you have just said. This is civic nationalism and not ethnic.

:58:18.:58:20.

You have to remember that. Because we want to take this and look at

:58:21.:58:26.

this, is it possible that... . It is a terrible destablising force, I

:58:27.:58:30.

agree with you in human nature. Is it right the civic nationalism

:58:31.:58:34.

fuelled in a top-down way by Westminster could be part of the

:58:35.:58:38.

discourse, it could be a different kind of force, a civic force in

:58:39.:58:42.

England which is isn't at the moment? Re I didn't see English

:58:43.:58:47.

nationalism. I don't see where it exists. I see however. I see

:58:48.:58:57.

northern renalalism as a strong force, that is the direction it is

:58:58.:59:04.

going to go. Away from London, more devolved power to the north and

:59:05.:59:11.

North West, a Great Northern swathe. But not English nationalists and

:59:12.:59:14.

backbenchers. I felt that astonishing that you don't recognise

:59:15.:59:21.

that the modern form of English nationalism, without an English

:59:22.:59:24.

party is U Kim. There praisingly before you. Agree UKIP is a growing

:59:25.:59:31.

force and exactly sort of the things they will reach. The point of this

:59:32.:59:36.

was really to try to establish a modern rational kind of way of

:59:37.:59:41.

running a country. Lots of people are embarrassed that a notion with

:59:42.:59:45.

all the scandals that Westminster has, a place that still styles

:59:46.:59:51.

itself as the mother of parliament, and using an archaic voting that we

:59:52.:59:58.

couldn't get a vote to change last place. We will go to the back of the

:59:59.:00:02.

cue and not have any of the aspirations we have raised recently

:00:03.:00:09.

and insteppedly. How do you see this, you have followed it from the

:00:10.:00:13.

beginning, you have seen it mature into whatever happened yesterday.

:00:14.:00:19.

How does it go on? You can't move around a yes rally for people not to

:00:20.:00:23.

tell you they are not nationalists, they are not nationalists and don't

:00:24.:00:28.

vote for the SNP. Scotland is full of those people, they deny they are

:00:29.:00:31.

nationalist, they say it is not about that. The interesting thing is

:00:32.:00:34.

the Westminster party leaders came north again and again to fight

:00:35.:00:38.

narrow nationalism. And the enemy they were identifying, it didn't

:00:39.:00:44.

mean anything to most of the people. They don't believe they are narrow

:00:45.:00:47.

nationalists or nationalists of any sort. Thank you very much indeed.

:00:48.:00:53.

Here on this amazing from Andrew in London and me in Edinburgh, that is

:00:54.:01:05.

all we have time for, good night. Hello, there are some torrential

:01:06.:01:11.

thunderstorms rumbling around parts of England in the night and some

:01:12.:01:14.

into eastern England to start the

:01:15.:01:15.