Browse content similar to 29/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Party conferences in the run up to a general election usually lack edge, | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
they are dull, stage managed affairs. But you know what? Times | :00:12. | :00:22. | |
right now are far from usual. Here at the Conservative conference, | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
the familiar fight against Labour is on. But David Cameron tells us that | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
is not his only concern. I have a double battle on my hands, I have to | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
win a blue-red fight against Labour, which is about growing with our | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
economy and dealing with the deficit. But I also have to win back | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
people who have left my party. We ask if rebellion is in the air and | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
if we are seeing a slow decline of the old parties in Britain. | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
We go to Hong Kong where maybe something similar is going on. | :00:52. | :01:07. | |
Welcome to Birmingham, lots of Conservative blue this week, and | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
early blues for the party this weekend, today it seems to have | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
cheered up. 219 days until the next general | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
election. But they will go by in a flash. Time for a self-respecting | :01:25. | :01:35. | |
political party to rally round the leader and suppress any hint of | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
self-doubt. The Conservatives, needless to say, are a | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
self-respecting political party. I'm trying to get a grip on how the | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
conference is going? Everyone is feeling enthusiastic for next year. | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
Some really positive news coming out today, I hope the public are | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
listening. I think we have more chance now than we have ever had | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
before to put a good Conservative Government in next year. It was | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
better than I was expecting. Really? Absolutely. What were you expecting? | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
Slightly gloomy and I don't feel gloomy any more. I can't lie, there | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
wasn't a single dissenter among those I spoke to on and off | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
microphone. If success for a political party requires the members | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
to have self-belief, even perhaps when the polling evidence is a bit | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
ambiguous, then the Conservatives are obviously having a very | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
successful event so far. But the truth is, this conference is | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
occurring at a very strange time. Not only is a lot going on in the | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
world, the country is at war, but the divisions within the right of | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
politics in the UK are more intense than they have been for many years. | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
Seasons observers of these events recognise that something is | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
different this year. This is very, very unusual, it is basically a | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
four-way run in which one of the parties probably won't win any seats | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
but may influence 100 seats, you know. One of the parties will be | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
trying to prop up the haemorrhage, namely the liberal party because of | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
the post-tuition fees issue, and the other two parties trying to fight in | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
the current. There are no linear routes to victory in this. Well, it | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
really makes or breaks the mood, so really makes or breaks the mood, so | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
here. We will hear what he has to say in a moment. First Allegra is | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
with me. There is a sort of happy party out there, but anxious as | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
well? It is jolly a febrile. It is not so much the hunt for the red | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
under the bed it is the purple under the bed. You had Mark Reckless who | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
defected on Saturday and there is the question of who is next. I don't | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
think they are stupid enough to be here, they would be lynched. There | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
are people looking towards the south coast, and the constituencies where | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
there is large UKIP component. People have spoken to the MPs and | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
said is it you that's next, they have sworn know. No. I have spoken | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
to those people and their friends and they swear it is not them. When | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
Mark Reckless defected he was denying to the last moment. Also | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
UKIP are keen, the choreography is very important, the idea you would | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
purpose announce it just before the Prime Minister's speech, so the | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
maximum pain. I do think it is beginning to backfire, where you | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
once upon a time might have had a Tory Party that this week was | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
flirting with UKIP's ideas, I get the sense they are thinking we will | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
fight you and hard. The by-election that Reckless has triggered in | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
Rochester, the Tories will put everything into that. You might have | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
a situation where they lose Clacton, and UKIP will be riding high, the | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
Tories have loads of money, if they put everything into it and it is a | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
different seat and Mark Reckless is very different from Douglas | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
Carswell, he doesn't have as much personal follow, you can see a | :05:04. | :05:11. | |
status where they keep that and stop the UKIP bandwagon. I sat down with | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
the Prime Minister this morning to speak about the political divisions, | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
but we started on the pressing foreign policy question, | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
intervention in Iraq. Looking at the interventions of the last decade, | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
Iraq, Sierra Leone, Libya, Afghanistan. What is the success | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
rate, what sort of hit rate are we getting? You have what to look at | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
each individual case. The ones where I have been particularly involved I | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
am happy to defend. Afghanistan, not something I started but something I | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
have been involved in finishing, we will leave that country in a better | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
state than we found it. Where I think we will be drawing the wrong | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
lesson is we thought that the difficulties with these | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
interventions meant that Britain should some how turn entirely away | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
from the world. The reason why we have sometimes to get involved is | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
that otherwise these issues come and bite us here back at home. It was | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
terrorism on the streets of Britain that caused us to be involved in | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
Afghanistan. The same, I would say, applies in the case of Iraq today. | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
One of the things I brought was the National Security Council that | :06:21. | :06:22. | |
brings together the domestic concerns about security and | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
terrorism with foreign policy. That is the prism through which we should | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
see these things. The one that was purely, purely yours was Libya. Do | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
you think, looking at Libya, that we left that country having ousted | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
Gadaffi, we left in a better state than it was? We left it in a better | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
state in that we enabled the Libyan people to do something they wanted | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
to do, which was to get rid of Gadaffi. But you have to go back to | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
why did we intervene? We were facing a situation where there was going to | :06:53. | :07:01. | |
be a humanitarian catastrophe. Gadaffi was bearing down and | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
threatening to kill the people like rats. We intervened and that led to | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
the end of Gadaffi. The state of Libya today is not good, I accept | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
that. Our responsibility was to help the Libyan people in their hour of | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
need, we did that. We now need them to lead and sort out proper | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
governance of their country. If you said to the population of Britain | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
that the current effort in Iraq and the Syria and Iraq, if that is as | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
successful as it was in Libya I would be a happy Prime Minister and | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
say we were right to get involved? Of course not. These are two | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
different situations. In Iraq and Syria today we see a terrorist | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
organisation that has taken control effectively of a state that has huge | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
amounts of munitions and oil, huge amounts of money, and it has already | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
been carrying out terrorist plots and trying to carry out terrorist | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
plots in Britain. This is a direct threat to us. There isn't really a | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
walk on by option, even if we want it to. Have we got a strategy in | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
Syria? Yes, we do. A strategy that isn't we hope the Free Syrian Army | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
will come back from nowhere and strike Assad? It starts with action | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
at home, in terms of keeping our own people safe, stopping people from | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
travelling, making sure our antiterrorism laws are as strong as | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
they can be. It involves working with other countries and partners in | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
the region, building up local forces so they can take on ISIL. Some | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
people say it can't be a strategy if all you are doing in Iraq or Syria | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
is air strikes, because where are the boots on the ground, which I | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
would argue it is better, isn't it, if the boots on the ground are local | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
boots on the ground, even though that may take more time. But there | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
aren't local boots on the ground and not enough of them. If anything the | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
Sunnis are uniting around ISIS? In Iraq there is the Iraqi security | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
force. It is a joke, we spent years building them up and they fled at | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
the first sign of fighting? At the end of the day the only way you can | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
make these countries safe is by those countries themselves taking | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
responsibility for their governance and security. As Ban Ki-Moon said a | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
missile can kill a terrorist, in the end it is only good governance that | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
can kill terrorism. Iraq and Syria need the same thing, which is | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
functioning Government that backs the whole of the country, with | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
functioning Armed Forces backed by the whole of the country. You may | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
that is immpossibly difficult to deliver. What is the strategy for | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
delivering that? I'm not sure it is in our power to deliver functioning | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
Government to Syria and Iraq, any more than Libya? It is in our power | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
to help train up Iraqi security forces and that needs to happen. It | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
is in our power to help train up Kurdish forces and that is in our | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
power, and in Syria we are, with the Americans, helping to build up the | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
Syrian national opposition, who should provide a counter point to | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
the unacceptable inlegitimate regime. In time I believe there will | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
be a transition from that regime to one that can better represent the | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
whole country. If you are saying this is difficult, yes, it will take | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
time, yes, absolutely. There are lots of ways in which it can go | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
wrong, of course. But the threat to our country as such, that actually | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
even though it is complicated, difficult and needs a comprehensive | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
plan is not a reason to walk away. Let's go on to domestic politics, it | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
is an interesting time, I wonder whether you think that the greatest | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
divisions in British politics at the moment are within the right between, | :10:42. | :10:49. | |
if you like, anti-Europe, anti-immigration, sometimes rather | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
anti-business, antiforeign intervention, anti-overseas aid, | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
wing of the right, many in your party. One might think it is more | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
the Financial Times right-wing, which is more pro-Europe and | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
pro-business, it has a lot of Conservative values but nowhere | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
near? I don't see it like that. I would say the divide is still on the | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
centre right and right, you have parties and people who believe you | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
grow an economy through free enterprise. You have to tackle | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
problems like deficits. You do need to control immigration, our | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
relationship with Europe needs to change. We need to a dress the | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
things in the modern -- address the things in the modern world that | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
leave people feeling uncertain in a globalised world. That is a centre | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
right approach, when you compare it with the centre left approach which | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
doesn't care much about the deficit and is very for Europe, and very | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
poor in its support for free enterprise and business and making | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
anti-business noises. I have a double battle on my hands. I have to | :11:56. | :11:57. | |
win a double battle on my hands. I have to | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
which is about growing our economy, dealing with our deficit, taking on | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
the problems, but I also have to win back a people who have left my party | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
the problems, but I also have to win who are concerned and worried about | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
the pressures in our modern world. I have to reassure them. I absolutely | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
do get the problems of uncontrolled immigration. I do want to change our | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
relationship with Europe, I want to build a sense of national pride that | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
this country can be a success again in this modern world. I think it is | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
often about those divisions on the right, as you put t I would say a | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
lot of them are about reassurance and understanding, and going back to | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
your values about what makes you tick, rather than a fundamental | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
division which is what we have with Labour. The basic dilemma facing you | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
is a bit to the right to win the UKIP voters ore tack left to win the | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
centre ground. The argument is move to the right you still don't win any | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
UKIP voters, they will just ask for more, move to the left and you can | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
win a lot of centrist voters, how do you see that dynamic, you don't | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
recognise the dilemma? The left-right terms have had relevance | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
in the past. I don't feel that at the moment. I feel it is much more | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
about trying to get across our economic plan for Britain is not | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
actually from the pages of the Financial Times, just dry and dusty | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
economic, it is actually a plan to make sure people can feel if I work | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
hard I can get a job and buy my own house, my kids will get decent | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
schooling. The problem is people can feel disconnected from economic | :13:34. | :13:35. | |
success and we have to reconnect them. That is not actually just | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
about policies, it is about what is in here, it is about explaining we | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
need your aspirations and we can deliver them. That is not a left or | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
right thing. I think part of the potential problem you have then, | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
trying if you like to ride both these horses on the wings of your | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
party at the same time is that people are left a little bit | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
confused as to whether the real David Cameron is one who was talking | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
about green issues in opposition, and was trying to modernise the Tory | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
Party, or the one who is now banging on about Europe having said he | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
wasn't going to do that. There might be a lack of clarity to where you | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
are heart is? I have been party leader for eight years, Prime | :14:16. | :14:17. | |
Minister for four, people get a clear idea. I don't see the two | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
things in contradiction. People are worried is this country going to | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
deliver for me, is there a good job for my child, a good school place, | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
and is there going to be a clean and safe environment? Are we going to be | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
a country that keeps our promises to the poorest in the world does | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
Britain mean something to the world. I think a modern and compassionate | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
Conservative can appeal to all of those. People have had long enough | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
to work out what I'm for. I had an argument that if I asked you | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
specific questions about particular interesting litmus test about | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
whether you are a moderniser or Conservative or socially | :14:58. | :14:59. | |
Conservative person whether you would give a clear argument. Let me | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
try. Children at school, should they primarily be taught when they are | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
doing weight about kilograms or caught about pound and ounces and | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
stones? I think I would still go for pounds and ounces. Would you? Yes I | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
do. What about this one, you are in a public park. Rather like miles and | :15:18. | :15:25. | |
pints. You are in a public park, two men, recently married are kissing | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
each other. Is that sweet or is that mildly inappropriate? That's fine. I | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
have been very clear about this, this is where I do, as it were, | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
marry traditional and modern values. I believe in the family and | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
marriage. It is such great institution I think men should be | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
able to marry each other and women marry each other. And kiss each | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
other in public if they want? I kiss my wife in public I don't see why | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
you can't kiss your husband in public. We are get to go the heart | :16:00. | :16:01. | |
of it. You are a pharmaceutical company, based in Britain, competing | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
on the world stage, you have two candidates for a mid-level job, one | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
is a British one who is OK, the other is Latvian, graduate who is | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
really, really good, which one would you like that pharmacompany to | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
employ? I want to make sure the pharmaceutical company has good | :16:21. | :16:22. | |
British people to employ. In the end they have to chose. This is where I | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
think the answer to immigration is education and welfare as well as | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
border controls. I will summarise, you have given us one Conservative | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
answer, pounds and ounces, one modernising answer, gays kissing in | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
public, and the other sitting on the fence? Not really, I would rather a | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
pharmaceutical company. I'm no clearer about which side of the | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
fence you are on. The Carswelles and Recklesses don't believe you are one | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
of them, you will never deliver? I'm not sure, there are lots of things I | :16:55. | :17:03. | |
disagree with about Douglas Carswell. I want the company to | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
employ British people that is a clear answer. If they had the chance | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
between an OK Brit and good Latvian you would say take the British | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
candidate? It is up to them what they would do. I want them to employ | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
British people, and I want British people adequately trained, with a | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
welfare system that supports them into work to take the jobs. We are | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
having great success with this, 1. 8 million more jobs in Britain, the | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
majority going to British people. It is only when we fix education and | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
welfare we will have the problem cracked. I wonder if you are in | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
danger. It is a problem for you? That was a pretty clear set of | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
answers, if you love each other get married, when I bake a cake I do it | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
in pounds and ounces, I want British people employed. I said you would | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
give straight answers, but you were on both sides of the argument? I was | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
explaining myself, the politics is about definition. People don't quite | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
know if you are Mr Moderniser, Mr Centrist, going for the Labour | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
voters? They have had four years of modern, compassionate Conservatism, | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
that is how I describe it. No-one would agree with every bit. Some | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
people say I like what you say about cutting tax, but I don't agree with | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
you about gay marriage, and some people say I love HS 2, I think it | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
is absolutely brilliant, but you shouldn't be changing the planning | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
system. You have to present what you believe in and say to people come | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
with me and I can deliver these things. No-one will like the whole | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
package but you should be consistent. I know you don't see it | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
this way, when you are trying to hold the party together, and there | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
are disparate wings in your party, quite a long way apart. Does the | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
fact that you have that situation and you are managing a Government, a | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
bit like John Major had to, does it make it very difficult to be | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
strategic and to think things through? Because unone of -- one of | :19:01. | :19:10. | |
the criticisms of your style of Government is you are shooting from | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
the hip, and you are great at putting out fires but there are a | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
lot of fires? I would say party and political management is important, | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
and parties are broad church, it is a team, you try and take with you. | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
That is an important part of politics. I would challenge the idea | :19:26. | :19:27. | |
this Government hasn't been strategic. When it comes to getting | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
the deficit down, long-term strategic decision, reforming the | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
pensions system, reforming welfare and our schools. Often things that | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
have been quite unpopular in the short-term, long-term strategic | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
changes for our country. I mentioned HS 2, fabulously unpopular with some | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
in our country, but I think undoubtedly the right thing to have | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
modern infrastructure. In politics you have to make decision, sometimes | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
you can't go ahead in the way you want to and all the rest of it. I | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
would say this Government has been very long-term and strategic. Rachel | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
Sylvester, the Times columnists describes how Theresa May was going | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
to make a statement in the Commons but told to make it on the Radio 4 | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
programme because otherwise we would lose the next three hours, as an | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
awful way of doing Government. I don't know if it is the real | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
description? It doesn't ring any bells. It would be terrible if | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
someone said that? It is if you are saying every day in modern politics | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
you are fighting battle of handling the media and answering questions. | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
Yes you are. I said I wanted to run a country not a 24-hour television | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
channel. You are trying to handle that tough but keeping your eye on | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
the long-term horizon, I would argue when it comes to the big decisions | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
about the future of the country that is what we have done. I often walk | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
into the Cabinet Room and I look at the chair where Churchill said in | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
May 1940, and the famous five days in May when Britain had to decide to | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
fight on or give in, today it wouldn't be five minutes before you | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
were outside wanting the interim decision from the cabinet. Life in | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
modern politics with a news cycle that does last half an hour puts | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
additional pressure on it, you have to deal with those things but keep | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
your eyes on the prize. Thank you very much Prime Minister. Thank you. | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
Some debate over whether the Prime Minister was wearing a purple | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
UKIP-coloured tie, it might have been taken as a blue. A quote that | :21:33. | :21:40. | |
Cameron says his economics doesn't come from the FT, and the phone is | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
abuzz with insulted reader. In Hong Kong the business of | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
politics is handled different, it is not much politics in public, more | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
place for business. The leader of Hong Kong is called a chief | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
executive. Since the British left in 1997 the chief executive is elected | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
by a committee of a few hundred people. There has long been a | :22:03. | :22:11. | |
promise that change will come, but Beijing will pick the candidates. It | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
is like you can have any colour you like as long as it is black. The | :22:16. | :22:24. | |
protests resulting from the decisions could be the greatest | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
since Tiananmen Square. The occupation of central Hong Kong | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
is growing. Early this evening there was talk of 100,000, as work finshes | :22:35. | :22:41. | |
the numbers swell each night. With two days public holiday coming up | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
later this week, concerns are building about a possible | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
confrontation. There is definitely a big, big worry, the last thing | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
Beijing and Hong Kong wants. But there is a fear that some activists | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
may well like to push the situation to that extent, in order to get | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
through their objectives. That is the danger, because that's the whole | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
stability of Hong Kong. The whole image of Hong Kong and China at | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
stake. So I think that Beijing is really worried about that. And | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
that's the last thing that the Beijing leadership wants. The | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
authorities are in a corner, faced with protests, many of which | :23:25. | :23:26. | |
unauthorised, they have little choice but to deploy. When they | :23:27. | :23:43. | |
dowsed activists with teargas yesterday it escalated things, and | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
the umbrellas they used to shield themselves was a symbol of the | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
movement. The danger of this, and there is a good probability of this | :23:51. | :23:58. | |
is the Chinese leader, who is a very muscular leader, he asserts himself | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
very strongly, he will see what happened at the weekend as a threat | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
to the first of the two systems, the Chinese system. We can't allow this | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
to happen on Chinese sovereign territory because it might give | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
other people ideas within mainland China, the Hong Kong disease as it | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
is called would spread, therefore you would get a toughening of the | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
official line in Hong Kong, that will mean even more polarisation and | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
things will not get any better. What this boils down to is a trial of | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
strength over how Hong Kong's new chief executive or leader will be | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
elected. Beijing has agreed that everyone will get a vote on that in | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
2017. But from a list of candidates chosen by a committee, something the | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
protesters oppose. Some people have criticised Beijing and said it has | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
gone back on its word. I'm not so sure about that. I think what the | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
central Government or technically the legislature in Beijing has come | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
out with on various occasions since 1990 has been consistent with the | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
original intention. This was the President's idea in the 1980s, you | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
need someone you can trust running Hong Kong and that involves some | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
sort of screening process for the position of chief executive. China | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
ever sensitive about its image in the world must now deal with a | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
fiercesome problem. These protests are assuming a mass character, but | :25:28. | :25:35. | |
among the demonstrators are activists with hardened views | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
likened to the type of power exercised in Beijing. It brings to | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
mind Tiananmen Square, but also the protests that brought down the | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
Government of Ukraine. Tonight the police are largely absent from the | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
centre of Hong Kong, and protesters control swathes of the financial | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
district. The atmosphere is peaceful and even public transport has come | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
to a halt. But this will alarm party leaders in Beijing, for it is a | :26:02. | :26:09. | |
brazen challenge to their system. It is coming up to 6.00am in Hong Kong, | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
we can briefly chat to Johnson Yeung, one of the organisers behind | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
the Occupy Central movement. Thank you very much for joining us. Tell | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
us what level of support do you think your group has, your movement | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
has among the population in Hong Kong? Well, I believe that there are | :26:26. | :26:35. | |
more than 15,000, I mean 500,000 people who marched on the streets | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
and they still stand firm on their stronghold. I believe it creates | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
great pressure on the Government and Beijing. They have to decide to | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
withdraw their rifle police from the streets and reorganise their own | :26:53. | :26:59. | |
strategies. So this movement is stunning for me now. I never | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
believed or anticipated Hong Kong people are so firm on fighting for | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
democracy, even when the police shoot teargas or pepper spray or | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
even use weapons to hurt them. So I believe this will create a huge | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
political tension to the Government to decide whether they should listen | :27:23. | :27:33. | |
to the people fighting for democracies. Where does this end? | :27:34. | :27:40. | |
Because of course they are not going to give in very easily, how long do | :27:41. | :27:49. | |
you go on with the protests? Well, I believe the supporting force of the | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
Hong Kong people to this movement is still growing. On Saturday there | :27:54. | :28:06. | |
were about 50,000 people on the street, there are more than 150,000 | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
people on the streets. Also the movement has spread. On Saturday | :28:13. | :28:21. | |
there was only Occupy Central in the commercial centre in Hong Kong, but | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
right now they expanded to the bay and even across the harbour to | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
another urban area. So the force is expanding and I believe this will | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
create more pressure on them so we have hoped that there is hope for | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
the Government to compromise and listen to the demands of the people. | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
Thank you very much, we will try to stay in touch with you to keep | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
abreast of the story. Back to events here at the | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
Conservative Party Conference. In terms of policy the big topic of the | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
day has been welfare and how to cut it. We look at what George Osborne | :29:05. | :29:11. | |
had to say. It is the last Conservative | :29:12. | :29:13. | |
conference before the general election next year. The Tories need | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
to propose some big cash-saving measures, so they have turned to a | :29:20. | :29:27. | |
rather familiar stories of savings. Working age benefits in Britain will | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
have to be frozen for two years. This is the choice Britain needs to | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
take to protect our economic stability and to secure a better | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
future. The fairest way to reduce welfare bills is to make sure that | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
benefits are not rising faster than the wages of the tax-payers who are | :29:46. | :29:53. | |
paying for them. I can't recall him saying anything about freezing the | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
cost of living for two years. So that's going to have a real knock-on | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
effect, because obviously if the cost of living carries on rising. | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
And the benefits have been frozen. Then the majority of the country | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
will end up in a worse position than they are, so in reality I don't | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
think he will be helping them at all. The starting point is the | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
coalition have set themselves a target of cutting the definite by | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
?37 billion by 2018/19. It told us it wants to cut the first ?12 | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
billion by cutting spending on benefits. They got the detail today. | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
The freeze will take ?3 billion off the benefit bill, but it comes after | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
other benefit cuts have been implemented. In to 10 the coalition | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
decided that working age benefits should not move at retail price | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
inflation but the lower consumer price inflation rate. In 2012 they | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
overrode the decision and squeezed the growth rate for benefits down to | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
1% a year for three years. Why have the Conservatives gone for the | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
working age benefits bill again? One of the most important reasons is the | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
party would have calculated it is not a popular form of spending. When | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
people think of benefits they think of unemployment, media depictions | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
like Shameness and Benefits Street, filmed on this street in Birmingham. | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
In truth, most people affected by the cuts don't live in places like | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
this. If I was looking for people who would be affected by the working | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
age benefits squeeze I would come somewhere like here, anywhere with a | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
lot of people. Back in 2012 last time there was a big squeeze in a | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
similar way, the IFS estimated 9. 5 million families would be affected | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
by the change. Seven million with people in work, and 2. 5 million | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
where no-one was employed. There is a perception that there is one group | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
that funds the been fits and another who lives off it. It is much more | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
complicated. There is a growing number of people in work receiving | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
state support, primarily driven by low pay and getting stuck there, and | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
high-cost housing. The state is bailing these people out all the | :32:04. | :32:05. | |
time. We have to deal with those root causes rather than seeking to | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
cut, cut, cut from the working age population. A wide swathe of | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
households is being affected, but there is one group that isn't. What | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
we have heard today is consistent with what has been done over the | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
last five years in particularly in terms of benefit changes and tax | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
changes. The old have been fully protected whilst the young, those of | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
working age, particularly young people of working age have continued | :32:31. | :32:37. | |
to lose significantly. Why aren't incomes for working age families | :32:38. | :32:44. | |
falling in the period up to 2012, but for retired households they | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
rose. They are pursuing a policy of we are all in it together and you | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
cannot exclude the pensioners who are so far protected. Why do they do | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
it? There are votes in this, and we are months away from a general | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
election. Benefit cuts aren't so much about unemployed and employed, | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
the bigger divide is between the young and old. Our economics | :33:09. | :33:16. | |
correspondent is with me, Duncan Weldon, put all the welfare cuts | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
into the context of the fiscal challenge facing the next | :33:21. | :33:22. | |
Government, particularly a Conservative Government? George | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
Osborne was speaking about the budget deficit, the fiscal situation | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
today, and he had good news and bad news. The good news, half the | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
deficit has been eliminate, and the bad news the other half has to be | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
eliminated in the next parliament. To put numbers on it, George Osborne | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
is looking at a ?25 billion hole to plug under his parts. ?25 billion, | :33:43. | :33:51. | |
welfare cuts is ?3 billion, he wants to ?12 billion of welfare cuts, ?3 | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
billion, only a quarter, all that pain and only a quarter he's looking | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
for next parliament. Can he hope that economic growth, it has taken | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
off to some very substantial degree, can he hope that will release him | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
from the constraints? That is always the hope. As the growth comes back | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
the budget deficit looks after itself. Growth is strong and | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
employment is strong. Inflation is low, what is missing is wage growth. | :34:18. | :34:24. | |
Because wage growth is missing that means income tax receipts are | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
missing too. Looking at the recent figures it is pretty much flat year | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
on year, spending is in line with where they want it to be but tax | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
revenues not so much. There is no money coming in even though they | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
have growth that is the issue. Thank you very much indeed. For a | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
while the Sunday mirror thought it was boss of Fleet Street taking a | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
ministerial scalp at the start of the Conservative Party Conference. | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
There was the issue of texting photos to what he thought was a | :34:58. | :35:05. | |
young party worker. Many think the scandal is from the newspaper rather | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
than the party itself. It is entrapment and the question that the | :35:10. | :35:17. | |
public interest was nailed on. Thirdly the journalists used | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
pictures of two women who had not given their permission for the | :35:22. | :35:28. | |
pictures to be used in this way. Steve can tell us more in London. | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
Give us the where we are on this story as of now? What we know as of | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
this evening is that the story was initially offered as a complete | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
package, in other words the investigation had been done, the | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
subterfuge enacted and the wicked pictures of the MP, of the minister | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
were found, it was initially offered to the Sun and the Mail on Sunday, | :35:50. | :35:59. | |
both turning it down and the Mirror picked it up. Why did they do that? | :36:00. | :36:12. | |
The Telegraph has been criticised in the past by. The Press Complaints | :36:13. | :36:28. | |
Commission about similar issues. The likelihood is that IPSO, the new | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
independent press standards organisation which has taken over, | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
if you like from the PCC, will follow the similar line. As things | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
stand it looks pretty likely unless their evidence is very strong that | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
IPSO will fight against the Mirror for having done it. Steve, what can | :36:45. | :36:51. | |
you tell us about who the reporter was, the freelance reporter? I can | :36:52. | :36:59. | |
tell you that Sophie Whittams the Twitter character, the 20-something | :37:00. | :37:10. | |
Tory PR girl, #team 2015. Was Alex whittam working for the website | :37:11. | :37:19. | |
order, order. There was a comment that they were looking forward if | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
Evan was wearing a tie on the first night on Newsnight. What that will | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
mean to him I'm not sure. The Mirror have issued a statement saying they | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
stand by the story, there was clearly public interest. They are | :37:34. | :37:41. | |
acknowledging that some of the pictures used by Alex Wickham, | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
belonged to real people and not posed by model, therefore they are | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
doing something to fix that. If you want to see the story of one of the | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
women whose pictures were used without their permission you can | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
read it in the Sunday Mirror. Thank you very much indeed. I'm joined | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
here in Birmingham by Jim Waterson the deputy editor of Buzzfeed in the | :38:07. | :38:17. | |
UK, and John Whitingdale. Good evening, the role of Buzzfeed in | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
uncovering what this journalist had done in terms of defusing various | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
MPs or attempting to was pretty good. Tell us what you guys did? | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
What it was is this story was out there and there were many defences | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
for it. We looked back at the account that was used to uncover and | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
to encourage the MPs to send pictures. It is worth noting the MPs | :38:42. | :38:48. | |
didn't need that much encouragement, particularly the one who was caught | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
out, he engaged willingly. We looked back at the account that had been | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
deleted and tell how the story came out. You can trace deleted tweets? | :38:57. | :39:04. | |
Yes, even though it had been deleted nothing on-line is delighted. Leted. | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
We want to know the technique she was using to try to entrap these | :39:10. | :39:17. | |
guys? Some were approached over pictures of a Jack Russell, they | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
would say it was a beautiful picture and in the hopes that it would be | :39:22. | :39:33. | |
taken in. So Brooks Newmark was flattered and that got him. Who sent | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
the first saucy picture? My understanding is Brooks who said he | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
has no-one to blame but himself, didn't much encouragement to start | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
sending the pictures. Do you think he should have gone, in your view? | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
He has no-one to blame, he takes responsibility and certainly he was | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
sending pictures of things he shouldn't have been to people on | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
Twitter. Do you think he should have gone? The problem would have been, | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
you and I know the way politics operates. If he hadn't this entire | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
conference would have been dominated by the with question about his | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
survival. He probably put the interests of the Conservative Party | :40:14. | :40:15. | |
first, recognising the story was as big as it was. Having said that | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
there are very serious questions, which have been raised about the | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
tactics used. Let's just, does somebody have to go for doing | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
something that isn't illegal, she wasn't under age or she wasn't | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
unwilling. He wasn't posting the pictures out to women who didn't | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
want to. Apparently it is a guy who appears to be having an affair or | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
trying to have an affair. Is that a resigning issue, that will exclude | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
an awful lot of people? That is a matter for Brooks, and he has been | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
very up front and said right from the start he has behaved like an | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
idiot. I don't think any of us would disagree with that. I think he did | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
decide that in the interests of the party he wanted us to have a good | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
conference and it shouldn't be the issue. Let's talk about the paper | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
what do you think about that? I think the Mirror have to justify why | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
this was in the public interest. On the face of it they employed tactics | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
in breach of the rules. Both the fact that it appears to have been a | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
fishing exercise and a number of MPs were targeted. And secondly that it | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
was clearly entrapment. The fact that two other newspapers, who have | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
never previously shown much reticence in publishing stories of | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
this kind, had decided not to run it, does I think raise serious | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
questions. It is a matter for the new regulator. How how old is that | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
OK regulator? It is the first big test of them. This is a bigger | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
issue, a bigger matter to determine than perhaps they would have chosen. | :41:49. | :41:51. | |
But it will be a test. Are they ready to take it on? That is a | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
question which you have to put to Alan Moses, he's doing a fringe | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
meeting with me tomorrow morning. I hope so, they said they are in place | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
and said they will be more independent, they will be tougher, | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
we wait to see how they will determine the case. How did it go | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
down with your readers? There is enormous global interest in the | :42:11. | :42:13. | |
story. We have been getting traffic from all over the world. I think | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
people both love the original story and as we are worrying about how it | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
came about it is still the story of the conference and a story that | :42:24. | :42:31. | |
people want to know more about. Over the decade and centuries, there | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
have, just occasionally, been a few great realignments in British | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
politics, moments when the coalition of supporters that make up the | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
political parties shift and fracture, on an issue that becomes | :42:45. | :42:52. | |
so divisive that it transforms the landscape of politics from then on. | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
We offer then a new party, but a new approach to politics. Most recently | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
the break-away SDP, led by the infamous gang of four, nearly beat | :43:03. | :43:09. | |
Labour in the popular votes in 1983, there by guarnteeing a major victory | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
for Margaret Thatcher. In the early 1900s, the rise of Labour helped | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
drain support away from the old liberal party, and transformed | :43:19. | :43:20. | |
politics for the rest of the century. In both of these cases the | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
left's vote was split and the right's united. It can happen the | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
other way. Joseph Chamberlain, the great son of Birmingham, where the | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
Tories meet today, split the Conservatives over tarrif reform in | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
the early part of the last century, and guaranteed his party's | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
irrelevance for the next century. The Corn Laws split the | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
Conservatives in half and helped consign them to opposition for a | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
decade. Today the right vote is once again split, the issue is Europe. | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
The question has to be whether the rise of UKIP is a mere flash in the | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
pan, a blip soon forgotten, or another moment where party support | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
does fracture irreconcilely, and in the ensuing mess British politics is | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
transformed for a long time to come. We have the assistant editor of the | :44:19. | :44:26. | |
Spectator, a former editor of the Telegraph, and a columnist for the | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
Times. Charles, do you think the right in British politics at the | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
moment is falling apart? I think the real history of what is happening | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
now is the right has grown stronger, particularly on the issue of Europe. | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
If you look over 30 years it is stronger and stronger, because it | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
moves up from the bottom, it is a genuine popular movement. It is | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
resisted by the establishment. This keeps coming to a head whenever | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
there is an electoral or referendum question, because the establishment | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
wishes to evade it and the wide opinion, which is to have the issue, | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
I noticed Matthew's paper this morning said the question of Europe | :45:03. | :45:05. | |
can wait. That is classic establishment view of the matter. | :45:06. | :45:08. | |
That wouldn't be the view of the people who care about the subject. | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
The reassignment and the event is simply the right asserting itself a | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
bit more and saying what it really thinks and that is the end of it? It | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
is not hard right or sectarian right, it is the Conservative Party | :45:21. | :45:23. | |
as opposed to the leadership has become a euro-sceptic party. Now | :45:24. | :45:30. | |
Matthew, you wrote a piece suggesting really that David Cameron | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
could let those UKIP defectors go and the party would be better off | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
without them. The departure of Mark Reckless the air in the room got a | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
great deal fresher. There are two or three more who ought to go, I hope | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
they will, they should be pushed if they don't go. I don't agree with | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
Charles, it is true that the right is flexing its muscle, but the | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
Conservative Party always had a hard right. On the whole in the past it | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
has learned to resist them, it needs to do that this time. What is the | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
view in the hierarchy of the Conservative Party about where this | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
is all going? I think within the hierarchy there is a desire to shut | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
it down, to tell those people perhaps your views aren't welcome in | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
the party and maybe you would be more comfortable in UKIP and good | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
rid dense. They don't want any more defections because it is hugely | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
important to them. Some of those backbenchers feel pushed by the | :46:31. | :46:32. | |
establishment ignoring, which is what Charles was saying. David | :46:33. | :46:39. | |
Cameron isn't particularly go at listening to backbenchers, and he | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
gives the impression they are I idiots. I'm puzzled by Matthew on | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
this subject, surely it is a major issue of policy on the future of the | :46:50. | :46:52. | |
country, it is a European issue that really matters. It is not weird | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
sectarian matters, it is of first importance. Obviously people get | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
frustrated if their leadership is reluctant to talk about T We were at | :47:05. | :47:11. | |
a point in the 1980s, the SDP came along and you had Margaret Thatcher | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
for a decade. She was electorally getting 45% of the vote. Are we at | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
the point that we have the danger that the right splits and you get a | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
left-wing Government. The left seems very united, the claps of the Lib | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
Dems means the left has one party? It would be a splinter rather than a | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
split. The greater danger is the Conservative Party moves sharply to | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
the right in order to stop the splinter and ends up losing a lot of | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
votes from those who might otherwise see themselves as Conservatives. It | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
will lead to a split in the Conservative Party. I noticed in | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
conversations I have been having with euro-sceptic ministers who | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
started to say after 2015 if the hard write in the parties starts to | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
agitate and we have lost the election, they don't want to be part | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
of that group any more. They want to move away either to send the guys | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
out of the party or form their own, not liberal | :48:12. | :48:13. | |
out of the party or form their own, view as a more sensible party. There | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
is a sense of frustration on both sides, there is | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
is a sense of frustration on both opening up, not in the next few | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
months but possibly the next few years, with more voices calling for | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
a bigger split. Charles you would like a coalition or pact between | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
UKIP and the Conservative Party? It doesn't look at all probable. Some | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
people in the Conservative Party are more distant from UKIP than the | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
Labour Party? With Keneth Clarke heaving are the Government, there is | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
no strong Europhile at the top of the Government. The shift over the | :48:47. | :48:49. | |
years. You are bringing it back to Europe? I do think fundamentally, it | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
is two things, Europe and the feeling of disaffection of people | :48:56. | :48:58. | |
who don't see themselves at the top of society. That is why UKIP has an | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
appeal to Labour voters as well. You haven't mentioned immigration? It is | :49:04. | :49:15. | |
related to the immigration question. A lot of UKIP people are very | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
unreasonable, but the fundamental issues are very important issues. | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
The sense they are being suppressed is extremely damaging for politics. | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
It would be a sad day for the Tory Party if Keneth Clarke couldn't | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
really be thought of as any more a Conservative. Wouldn't it? They | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
would be losing a very large chunk of their centrist support, if Keneth | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
Clarke is told he's not welcome where does it leave the Conservative | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
Party? It is the case on both sides of the party, the important thing if | :49:45. | :49:50. | |
they want to continue to win votes rather than splitting into fragments | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
so the left always wins. They need to unite and find out how to do | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
that. There is a party management issue, both sides don't feel they | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
are getting on but don't feel united by the leadership. What was the | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
advice to sensible people to the Labour Party when it looked in | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
danger of lurching to the left. There was a sense of the hard right | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
of the Labour Party going in there. The advice was to take no notice and | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
stay in the centre. I would give the same advice to the Conservative | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
Party now? There is an issue of bad faith here people are told by the | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
Conservative leadership there are answers on Europe and the | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
Conservatives are a euro-sceptic party. But when people try to put | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
flesh on the bones they are accused of being bad people. There will be a | :50:43. | :50:50. | |
reign dumb? Reverend come. Referendum. There is, but it is not | :50:51. | :50:57. | |
a good idea to go in and not say where you stand on things. There is | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
an odd neutrality. The debate hasn't been resolved here, we look forward | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
to it continuing and maybe it will be resolved before long. Gentleman | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
thank you. That is it for tonight. Last week in his conference speech | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
Ed Miliband used the word "together" 51 times. Today George Osborne | :51:17. | :51:22. | |
unveiled his political philosophy in one word, see if you can spot it. | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
Good night. Choose life. Choose jobs. Choose a career. Choose a | :51:29. | :51:35. | |
family. Choose prosperity. Choose washing machines, cars, compact disc | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
players and electrical tin openers. Choose security, choose prosperity. | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
Choose good health. Choose David Cameron, choose the Conservatives. | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
Choose fixed interest mortgage repayment, choose a starter home, | :51:51. | :51:51. | |
choose your friends. | :51:52. | :51:59. |