Browse content similar to 28/10/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It is the missing question in the great EU debate. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Come the vote we will know what it is to remain in the EU, | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
Would we exit on terms that mean the grass here is | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
greener, or would we be left worse off than when we started. | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
It was the Prime Minister today in Iceland who raised the danger. | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
Norway pays as much per head into the European Union as we do. | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
When it comes to migration they actually have many more people | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
coming to live in Norway than we do, and yet while they pay they do not | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
Top Tory Eurosceptic Owen Paterson is here to tell us | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
the deal he expects Britain to get if we leave the EU. | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
Also tonight Gabriel Gatehouse is on the streets | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
of Turkey where the government is cracking down on Islamic State. | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
There was an explosion just now and what they are saying is the building | :00:52. | :01:02. | |
where the stand-off happened might have been booby-trapped. | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
Also tonight, the acclaimed political biographer | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
Robert Caro tries to compress his thousands of pages | :01:10. | :01:11. | |
If you try to do something and conceal it from the public, | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
in the first place they are going to find out about it. | :01:17. | :01:18. | |
if you have not brought them along, in the end you are going to fail. | :01:19. | :01:27. | |
Up until now, the Prime Minister has resisted firing the starting gun on | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
But maybe he was feeling frustrated, or maybe he just needed | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
a decent speech to deliver on a trip to Iceland. | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
Whatever motivated him, he weighed into | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
the fledgling argument by raising what is a most important question. | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
We know what it means to be IN the EU, but what does OUT mean? | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
We're going to devote quite a bit of the show to this question tonight. | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
The Prime Minister is in Iceland, which is not in the EU, but he | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
specifically talked about Norway, a country you might have thought was | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
The PM said he didn't think the Norwegian model would be right | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
Well, the BBC's political editor Laura Kuenssberg, formerly one | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
of our own, is over in Reykjavik, where the prime minister is. | :02:17. | :02:24. | |
Laura, on the politics of this, why would he raised this now? If you | :02:25. | :02:34. | |
listen very carefully in Reykjavik tonight, you might just hear the | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
sound of a third EU referendum campaign getting off the ground. Not | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
an official state campaign, not an official go campaign, but an | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
unofficial, different political campaign, the man in charge is David | :02:49. | :02:57. | |
Cameron. His complex campaign is he wants to stay and get a better deal, | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
if not pack up and leave. He is putting this message forward now | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
because although Downing Street denies there is any panic there is a | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
sense the momentum has been with those who would like the UK to exit | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
the EU. Downing Street thinks it is time to push back and try to expose | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
some of the problems with the suggestions they are putting | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
forward. That is why he is using this visit to make his case and that | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
is why he seized on the Norway model, the one he claims would not | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
be right for us. Never has so much attention been showered on Norway as | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
there has been today. Take this briefly through the substance of his | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
argument. This is all about control. Norway and Iceland have a looser | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
friendship with the EU. They trade with the EU and are part of the area | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
and can do business with whoever they like, but they have to pay for | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
the privilege and they are still bound by many of the rules and | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
regulations decided in Brussels. If you listen to the Norwegians talk | :04:05. | :04:13. | |
about that... We will hear from the Norwegians in a few minutes. Sorry | :04:14. | :04:15. | |
Well, we thought it might be useful to drill down into more detail | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
at the different kinds of non-EU membership that are out there. | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
First, we'll have to decide what freedoms we want and what | :04:24. | :04:25. | |
And secondly, the rest of the EU will have to decide what | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
Let's hear from our political editor Allegra Stratton about some | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
The Northern lights, you cannot see them from any old spot, you have to | :04:34. | :04:45. | |
go north to see them clearly, and so to the Prime Minister suggested | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
today Britain's future relations with the European Union. From | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
Iceland to David Cameron warned he could see clearly what Britain's | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
future looked alike. Some people have said the Norway option is | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
available to Britain. Norway pays as much per head into the European | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
Union as we do and when it comes to migration and they have many more | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
people coming to live and work in Norway than we do, and yet while | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
they pay they do not get a say. Is he right? Yes, Norway is often held | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
up by Eurosceptics as a prosperous, successful state operating with, but | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
not inside, the EU. Like Lichtenstein and Iceland they are | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
members of the European economic area that allows the free movement | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
of goods, services and people and capital within the area of the EU. | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
But by signing up they have to adopt much of the regulation of the EU, | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
but with less scope to influence that legislation. Eurosceptics have | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
distanced themselves from Norway in the last few days. What about | :05:54. | :06:08. | |
Switzerland? The Swiss are not in the European economic area, but they | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
have a series of bilateral agreements with the EU and as | :06:12. | :06:13. | |
members of the European free trade area they get favourable trading | :06:14. | :06:15. | |
relations. Boris Johnson has suggested we could join with the | :06:16. | :06:17. | |
Swiss and make a new outfit here of the European Union with free trade | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
with the European Union, but the right to help set the terms of that | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
trade. Critics say this only allows access to parts of the single market | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
and would exclude our financial services sector and Switzerland | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
still pays into the EU budget. There are so many different options and | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
all of them are worse than what we currently have. We have the best of | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
both worlds, we get to sit around the table and we have a say and all | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
of these other options would leave us worse off. We would pay and we | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
would have no say over the rules we would have to implement. I then not | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
other options? Turkey is an outsider to the EU, but they have struck free | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
trade agreements, giving them access to the single market, but there is | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
small print. This is small print. This only force UK to follow EU | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
trade policies. One last option, it is none of the above, but one day we | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
could become a kind of Singapore trade deal with the EU with out EU | :07:24. | :07:34. | |
red tape. Pro-Europeans this welcomes and loosened our client. | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
Their business models are different, they have oil and gas which is a key | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
part of their economy and comparing one country with another is | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
irrelevant. I want to see re-negotiation that works for us in | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
the UK. I knew Tory MP disagreeing with her leader's warning issued | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
from Iceland. The ad campaign think today David Cameron has blundered. | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
By rubbishing Norway they think he has placed himself firmly on the | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
inside of the referendum regardless of what he gets back from the EU. | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
Why has he done what he has done? One of the arguments that persuade | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
voters to stay in the European Union is the idea of Norway, that we would | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
still be subject to the same regulations. That is the strategy | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
behind the Prime Minister's comments today. Lots of examples of how | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
Britain could function outside the EU. Northern lights yes, but beacons | :08:38. | :08:45. | |
elsewhere as well. The outcome means we could be in a category of our | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
own. Nervous voters would like more details. | :08:51. | :08:59. | |
A little earlier I spoke to Vidar Helgesen, | :09:00. | :09:01. | |
the Norwegian Europe Minister, and I began by asking what he made | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
I don't think it was pointing to Norway as such, | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
but the Norwegian model of being affiliated with the European Union. | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
And it's serving Norway economically well, because being a part | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
of the single market is very important to us, to our businesses, | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
But it's also a system that has its dilemmas, because we are | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
Over 20 years more than 10,000 EU laws have been imported directly to | :09:29. | :09:37. | |
Because that's necessary for us to be part of the single market. | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
We don't sit at the EU decision-making table, | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
Is your influence limited, incidentally? | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
I mean, you must have an ambassador in Brussels who argues | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
Yeah, but our ambassador in Brussels is one of the European ambassadors | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
that doesn't sit at the meetings of EU ambassadors. | :10:00. | :10:01. | |
But it's better for us to be part of the single market through this | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
arrangement than being cut off from the single market, | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
There is some discussion and argument about what proportion | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
of European laws are e-mailed, faxed through to you, and you have | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
There's one figure about 9%, others I've seen another figure of 75%. | :10:18. | :10:25. | |
Do you know what proportion of law you have to comply with? | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
I think the latter is closer to the truth. | :10:30. | :10:31. | |
Any legislation, pertaining to the single market, | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
The Norwegian parliament, for each day | :10:36. | :10:42. | |
of sitting over the last 20 years, has adopted five per day EU laws. | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
And we do it while we are paying to the European project roughly | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
on a par with what we would do if we had been a member state. | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
It's conspicuous in Norway that the public are pretty happy with the | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
arrangement, at least there's no demand, there is antipathy towards | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
joining the EU, the political class, you included, you are fairly keen. | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
What is this gulf between the establishment, the political | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
You guys want in, they don't want in. | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
In Norwegian politics there is no membership debate looming at all. | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
Considering the financial crisis, I don't think anyone would be | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
surprised that there is a limited appetite for another | :11:32. | :11:33. | |
The reason why the EEA agreement is commanding | :11:34. | :11:45. | |
support in the Norwegian public and in Norwegian politics is simply | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
that it's good for business, it's good for the economy. | :11:49. | :11:50. | |
You would like Britain not to join you in the European economic area, | :11:51. | :12:05. | |
Since the rules are made in Brussels, in the EU, | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
and we import them, it's important for us that the rules are sensible. | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
And we believe that Britain at the table produces more sensible | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
EU rules than if Britain were on the outside, so that's why it's | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
in Norway's interest that Britain remains at the table. | :12:19. | :12:20. | |
Vidar Helgesen there, the Norwegian Europe Minister. | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
But as as we heard earlier in the show, it's not just Norway that | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
people cite as versions of what it might look like to be out of the EU. | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
Let's get some help from two other places, Singapore and Switzerland. | :12:36. | :12:37. | |
On the line from Singapore is David Kuo, who runs | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
an investment advice service there, and from Frankfurt, though she's | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
Swiss, is Dr Anne van Aaken who teaches at St Gallen University. | :12:45. | :12:53. | |
I am going to start with you. You are in Switzerland, Switzerland is a | :12:54. | :13:01. | |
very affluent place, by your observation does the Swiss | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
relationship with the EU work? Well, I would say it would be difficult | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
for Britain to repeat the Swiss model. It is a very special model | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
and it has to be understood historically by Switzerland not | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
wanting to join the EU and trying to have bilateral treaties. Since | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
Switzerland is not in the European economic areas, it has to make a | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
treaty for everything where it wants to have economic relationships with | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
the EU. That is where we currently stand. It is more complicated than | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
the Norwegian one, but it gives them more flexibility, like an a la carte | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
menu rather than a fixed meal? That is right, but services are not in, | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
which is difficult for Switzerland. Switzerland has quite a strong | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
financial industry sector, so that is difficult for them. The EU | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
basically negotiated that if one treaty is not adhered to, and the | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
Swiss had a referendum in 2014 concerning the free movement of | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
persons, then all the other treaties can be terminated as well. So in a | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
way even though they are bilateral treaties, on its single issue it is | :14:24. | :14:31. | |
a package. You do not take the whole package. All or nothing. Thank you, | :14:32. | :14:39. | |
that is very useful. Singapore is not directly comparison to the UK, | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
but the suggestion is the model of being an enterprise Hub, a kind of | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
offshore almost halved against a large continent, it certainly seems | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
attractive to some people. How attractive do you think and how easy | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
would it be for the UK to become like Singapore? | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
We are part of a free-trade organisation, free trade region here | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
for the Association of Southeast Asian Nations. -- it is called the | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
Association of Southeast Asian Nations. Part of a bigger | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
organisation but at the same time there are big differences between | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
that and the European Union. 80% of the trade done by Singapore is | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
outside and only 20% is within those nations. Singapore does work, it's a | :15:32. | :15:40. | |
very successful economy. For it to work what do you need? Singapore | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
taxes are very low, much lower than the UK ones. It's certainly one | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
area, as far as Singapore is concerned we have one of the lowest | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
corporation taxes, no capital gains tax whatsoever and no inheritance | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
tax, it's very attractive for corporations who want to come here, | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
financial institutions and wealthy individuals. Those people who want | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
to pass on their wealth to the next generation. As far as the UK is | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
concerned, it needs to copy that model. Reduce its taxes to an | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
it'll start to attract corporations and financial institutions which | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
they already have. It'll encourage those companies to | :16:18. | :16:26. | |
stay within the UK and not think about moving elsewhere. Thanks | :16:27. | :16:27. | |
Here with me now is the former Conservative cabinet minister and | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
you've been listening to the whole caboodle of options and things, | :16:34. | :16:42. | |
which is your favourite by the way? My favourite option is the British | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
option, we are the fifth largest economy in the world, we have a huge | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
deficit with our European neighbours up to ?70 billion per year, 5 | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
million Europeans they'll want to do a deal with us. What was useful | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
about your clips, it shows there are different solutions for different | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
countries. What was interesting, none of them missed, they almost, | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
actually, key movement, towards global regulation, global | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
government. What you missed out is that we want to get our seat back on | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
those global bodies. The Prime Minister set out five questions he | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
thought were important today. I thought we could go through some of | :17:21. | :17:22. | |
them quickly, because they are useful. Would the UK still be | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
obliged to follow EU rules on free movement of people? In your opinion, | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
if we're out, would free movement apply? It depends what the final end | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
solution is. I'm asking what your preferred solution would be. The | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
Treaty of Rome was free movement of labour and the Treaty of Lisbon free | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
movement of people. What I'd like to see is laws made in our own | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
parliament so we get back control of our immigration policy. Not free | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
movement? Not like Norway. It has to be negotiated. Will the UK be forced | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
to pay an EU subscription fee like Switzerland and Norway? It depends | :18:07. | :18:08. | |
what the end solution is. I don't know where these figures have come | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
from. The figures I've seen, Norway pays about half. You would expect | :18:13. | :18:22. | |
the UK to or not? It all depends what the end solution is, I want to | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
get back to the global level, I want Britain to take a 4 seat on the WTO. | :18:27. | :18:35. | |
Norway, which was missed out by their minister, chairs the global | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
body committee... A global committee on fish. They export 3 billion euros | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
of fish. It isn't an answer to the Prime Minister's question. What the | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
UK pay the EU 's abduction? I don't want to hear about fish, I want to | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
hear about the UK subscription under the scenario you are advocating, yes | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
or no, it's quite simple. You might not want to hear about fish but | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
fishermen do. We've talked to you about fish before and Norway, I can | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
remember sitting over there talking. And you interrupted me last I'm like | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
you are interrupting now. I won't interrupt if you answer the question | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
about the EU subscription, will we pay one or not? | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
I want to move to a global system where we have full representation as | :19:19. | :19:26. | |
a full nation on a global bodies. We are represented by a 28 of a | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
commissioner, highly unsatisfactory as we move to global regulation. The | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
EU is retreating as a law creator, the global bodies moving. You have | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
to think out of your EU box. Is it an answer to the question will see | :19:40. | :19:47. | |
you -- have you answer the question the public will read into it what | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
they want. You are presuming we will be in the EU. The EU is going to | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
leave us. I've explained a scenario and you fail to tell me whether | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
we'll pay a subscription, I'm thinking your answer is no. You are | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
assuming we'll be in something called the EU. The EU is leaving us. | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
It won't be like Norway, we won't pay a subscription? We'll be getting | :20:10. | :20:16. | |
our seat back. Would we be in a trade deal with EU, would we be in | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
the trade steel if it's negotiating with other nations? Yes, I said that | :20:23. | :20:31. | |
already, we have a huge... We'll come up with a solution in | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
everybody's interest. What if they set terms which you don't like for | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
us to have access to the market? The market? Reply minister says 31 other | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
governments and parliaments, will they all agree to the UK's new | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
relationship? The procedure is they go into a locked room, decides the | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
treaty that will determine our relationship with them, and they | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
handed to us and we take it or leave it. We are getting outvoted now, | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
we've been beaten in the council 55 times the last few years. We are | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
constantly being outvoted, was out voted when I was the secretary for | :21:06. | :21:13. | |
Defra. I'm saying we have an unsatisfactory deal now which costs | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
a fortune, we have laws and regulations imposed upon us, we | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
don't have our full seat on the global bodies. I know I know. Which | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
I'm very keen on. We will get our full roll on that and it changes the | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
relationship completely. We would love you to have access to our | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
single market, full access, we don't want a race to the bottom on labour | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
standards, to have full access to the single market you will have two | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
basis, that and the other, part of social Charter. Social chapter. As | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
part of the condition. Do we say yes or no? No, I'm looking to a global | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
system. You said... It's inconceivable we won't come to an | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
unsatisfactory trade deal when we have a 70 billion deficit when 5 | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
million of their citizens depend on us for trade, we'll come to a deal | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
with them. What proportion of their GDP is exported to us? Depends on | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
the countries, somewhere like Germany is higher. 3%. It varies | :22:15. | :22:22. | |
dramatically between the countries. The key factor for the last few | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
months, each of the last 12 months, sales outside the EU to the rest of | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
the world have increased faster than EU sales. It's still important we | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
have a satisfactory trade deal with them, but we get our rollback on the | :22:35. | :22:44. | |
world bodies and we galvanise the Commonwealth... It's the breakdown | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
in the movement to world free trade that is causing so many problems | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
around the world. Have you answer the question, I'm not sure you have, | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
about how we establish a trade relationship with them that gives | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
access to their market without them dictating some of those terms. 31 of | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
them, 26 of them, plus five EAA members. Varies us. -- there is them | :23:07. | :23:15. | |
and there is us. In that they have interest in coming to a satisfactory | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
deal with us. People on your side of the argument have said, we can't | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
possibly think about a treaty change option under David Cameron. | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
Renegotiation, without it being signed in blood and ratified before | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
we have to vote on it. Are you going to ask us when we come to the | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
referendum to vote on and out prospectus as they as the one you've | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
been describing tonight? I'm not being very casual, I have a clear | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
view we want a new relationship as they move away from us and form | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
their new country. Hang on! I want a relationship based on trade and | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
cooperation, which is what we voted to join in 9075. Allied to that, | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
want to make our own laws in our own parliament and have our own | :24:02. | :24:03. | |
full-time or presented on the global bodies. -- we voted to join in 1975. | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
Yet our role on the global bodies. It'll cascade down through the EU. | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
I'm hearing what you want but I'm not clear, if they say they don't | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
want the relationship you are describing, what you can do about | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
it. I think what you are saying is we should trust that in the end | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
it'll be all right, they won't play hardball. But you seem to forces | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
which have ended with irrational hardball playing characters doing | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
stuff that may not be in the interest of both parties. They have | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
a huge interest. Have you seen a divorce case where somebody has | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
acted against their own interests to hurt the other one. It's different | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
when you have a massive deficit going one way. And something | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
integrated across borders. They allow vested interests in Europe | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
that will want trade and cooperation to carry on. -- there are vested | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
interests. We allow them to move into a political interest. We'll | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
never be in the euro, in Schengen, they will form their new country, as | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
they've announced in various reports. It gives us the | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
opportunity, we have the whip hand, to get that through they have to | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
have a treaty change and we have a whip and to ensure we have a totally | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
new relationship with our neighbours based on trade, cooperation and | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
making our own laws in our own parliament. Owen Paterson, thanks | :25:26. | :25:26. | |
very much indeed. Well, from a discussion | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
about a Britain off one side of the EU, to a country sitting just | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
off the opposite side, Turkey. It's in a far less temperate zone | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
of course, a Syrian war and IS on its doorstep and a long-running | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
struggle with Kurdish separatists. Earlier this month, suicide bombers | :25:39. | :25:41. | |
in the capital Ankara killed more than a hundred people at a rally | :25:42. | :25:43. | |
of a pro-Kurdish opposition party. A ceasefire with the Kurdish | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
militant group All in all, it's not been | :25:48. | :25:49. | |
an easy time for Turkey, Elections in June were inconclusive, | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
so the country votes again Gabriel Gatehouse has been there | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
and found a country struggling to insulate | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
itself from the war on its border. Turkey, a bulwark of stability | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
on the edge of Europe. A buffer against the chaos | :26:07. | :26:24. | |
of the Middle East. The violence that surrounds | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
this country is now beginning Now Turkey is suffering from | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
terrorism attacks because of Syria. Because terrorists, | :26:32. | :26:40. | |
both PKK and Isis, are using Syria, an uncontrollable area, | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
for practising terrorism attacks. In the run-up to Sunday's election | :26:46. | :26:52. | |
there have been deadly bombings blamed variously on Islamic State, | :26:53. | :26:54. | |
or President Erdogan's | :26:55. | :26:56. | |
message is this: Only a strong majority for his party | :26:57. | :27:04. | |
can hold the country together. For such attacks, | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
like tourist attacks, the people of Erdogan is an important | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
figure to unite this nation. Some people have been suggesting it | :27:12. | :27:22. | |
might have been the government itself that was | :27:23. | :27:24. | |
behind the attack in Ankara. I think it is really dangerous | :27:25. | :27:26. | |
to play sectarian politics and to In this atmosphere | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
of mutual suspicion Turkey is once again at war with the Kurds, a war | :27:32. | :27:43. | |
fuelled by the conflict in Syria. In the Kurdish dominated | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
East, Turkish jets are bombing PKK targets in response to attacks | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
by the Kurdish militants. But now a new threat has injected | :27:51. | :27:59. | |
itself into this toxic conflict, On a residential street | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
in the city of Diyarbakir we arrived as security forces carried out | :28:03. | :28:12. | |
a raid on an IS safe house. This was more a battle than | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
a shoot out, police using armoured They have implanted IS | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
into our midst, this man told me, they are only conducting this | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
operation now because They are trying to use IS to | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
put pressure on Kurdish people. There is a car reversing out | :28:31. | :28:40. | |
of the area. They are saying the building | :28:41. | :28:47. | |
where the stand-off happened Two policemen were killed as well | :28:48. | :28:49. | |
as seven militants. Turkey has long allowed | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
Islamic State fighters to use IS oppose the Syrian regime, | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
IS are also a barrier to Kurdish But now some of those IS | :28:59. | :29:05. | |
fighters are coming back. In places eastern Turkey looks | :29:06. | :29:14. | |
like a country at war, but these soldiers are not here because | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
of a threat from Islamic State. They are here because Kurdish | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
militants have taken over swathes turning whole neighbourhoods | :29:22. | :29:23. | |
into so-called autonomous zones. This is essentially a rebel zone, an | :29:24. | :29:32. | |
area that is not under the control of the Turkish security forces, it | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
is under the control of rebel youths They have strung up tarpaulin to | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
shield themselves from the view There are signs here | :29:39. | :29:54. | |
of recent heavy battles, pockmarked The group's leaders are shy | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
of the cameras. They did not want us to film their | :29:59. | :30:06. | |
weapons, mostly automatic rifles, They will be coming for us, | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
they will use tanks and mortars. They want to clear everyone out | :30:10. | :30:18. | |
of this neighbourhood then hit it Emboldened by their fellow Kurds | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
in Syria who have carved out a vast territory along Turkey's southern | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
border, these Marxist guerillas now sense perhaps new momentum | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
in their decades-old struggle. We shall overcome | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
and we will resist to the end. We can take the violence of | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
the state no longer. There are people who are digging | :30:42. | :30:50. | |
these trenches who do not want to be identified, they are all | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
covering up their faces. These are young, armed men who are | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
affiliated with the PKK, the Kurdish rebel group, and one | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
thing is for sure, this is now Not everyone here wants to pick a | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
fight with Turkey's powerful army. These women told us all they want is | :31:04. | :31:15. | |
peace, In his office the local head | :31:16. | :31:17. | |
of president Erdogan's AKP party showed me the bullet holes where PKK | :31:18. | :31:27. | |
militants fired at his window. As Kurdish fighters grow | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
in strength across the border in Syria, Mohammed Akar feels | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
this rebellion could become President Erdogan has presided | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
over a decade of stability Sunday's election is essentially | :31:40. | :32:08. | |
a rerun. In June his AKP party failed to get | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
a majority. His critics accuse him of becoming | :32:14. | :32:15. | |
increasingly authoritarian. Over the past few weeks, many towns | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
in the East have been under curfew. In Diyarbakir's old town we found | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
people venturing out for the first time after special forces were sent | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
in to quell clashes between Kurdish All this commotion is because there | :32:31. | :32:32. | |
is a food distribution here, they are handing out supplies to people | :32:33. | :32:47. | |
who are affected by the clashes that happened in these narrow alleyways | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
just a few days ago. All of this is organised | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
by a pro-Kurdish opposition party which is capitalising | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
on the anger among people who were prevented from getting to work or | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
even to the shops. We had nothing to eat or drink, | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
this woman says. She told me her daughter had gone to | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
the mountains, President Erdogan came to power | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
as a champion of the oppressed, His base is | :33:18. | :33:25. | |
among religious conservatives and Islamists, empowering people who | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
once felt marginalised by Turkey's Now there are those who feel | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
the pendulum has swung too far In 2012 Gurbuz Chapan was one | :33:36. | :33:42. | |
of dozens of people implicated in He insists he supports change | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
only at the ballot box, but he This election is essentially | :33:49. | :33:55. | |
a referendum on the limits Strong leadership has kept Turkey | :33:56. | :34:29. | |
stable amid the chaos of the Middle East, but Erdogan's | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
opponents believe that by giving space to Islamic State | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
and by re-engaging in conflict with If you love biographies, | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
you may well love the American His majestic history of the life | :34:44. | :34:54. | |
of US president Lyndon B Johnson is It's considered one | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
of the most important political His other monumental work was | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
about the man who shaped That one's forty years old now, | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
but has just been published here. From afar, Johnson and Moses may not | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
seem the obvious lives to devote more than a thousand pages to, but | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
Mr Caro has fans in high places. The Chancellor is one of them, | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
Gordon Brown too. Because his books are really | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
about power and its use. Well, it's amazing to me, thank you, | :35:25. | :35:37. | |
England! But I think part | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
of the reason is that it's not really only about Robert Moses, it's | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
about political power, how you get political power, what is political | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
power, how can it shape our lives? Moses was interesting to me because | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
he was never elected to anything. We live in America in a democracy | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
where power is supposed to come from Here is a man who was never elected | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
to anything, he had more power than anyone who was, more than any mayor, | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
more than any governor, more than And he held this power for 44 years, | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
it was half a century, So I set out to do, | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
how did he get it? Can we talk a little | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
about biography? I mean, one of the dangers of | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
biography, particularly the thorough biographical style of which you are | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
the master, perhaps it puts too much weight on the individuals, too much | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
weight on Moses shaping New York. Not enough on historical forces, | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
motorcars, the ability to build tall buildings, whatever | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
the architectural trend was. Is that | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
a danger with big biographies? Well, I think it's a danger, | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
I think in my particular case the danger is mitigated because I'm | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
not interested in writing... I never thought | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
of writing a biography. Just to write the life | :37:00. | :37:02. | |
of a famous man. I never had the slightest | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
interest in doing that. I started The power broker because, | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
I think I mentioned, no one seem to So it started on one part as | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
an examination of political power. How did he create this power | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
outside the electoral process? It's a study of power, that's why I | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
call it The Power Broker. With Johnson, what attracted me | :37:27. | :37:39. | |
to Johnson, was the same thing. It was his Senate years more | :37:40. | :37:41. | |
than the presidential years. And he continues his informal Texas | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
style, I said, my God, | :37:45. | :37:45. | |
he did something no one else has If I can sit and figure out how he | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
got the power to do that, and explain it to people, you have | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
to figure it out and you've got to explain it, then that really is | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
something you feel you are adding to people's understanding of political | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
power, that they should understand. If you don't know what you want to | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
do with your power, you are not really going to be very | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
useful, are you? And if you don't have | :38:14. | :38:15. | |
the ability to work the system, you are not going to be very useful, you | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
need both of those, do you or not? You know, Johnson is really very | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
interesting, he has to give this speech for Congress three days | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
after Kennedy is assassinated. Speech writers are gathered | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
around the table. He comes down to see what | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
they are turning out. They say, well, whatever we do, | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
don't touch civil rights, don't mention civil rights, | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
the Southerners control Congress. They are going to stop all your | :38:40. | :38:42. | |
legislation, don't antagonise them. It's a noble cause, | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
but a lost cause. In a speech he says, | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
my first priority is to pass Now, | :38:49. | :38:56. | |
I wonder whether the techniques used by Johnson, skulduggery you might | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
call some of it, the techniques used by Johnson, whether they created | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
a disenchantment with politics? Today, the word is authenticity | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
that we want in our politicians. I wonder whether the kind of cynical | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
manipulation of people like Johnson Yes, the answer to your question is | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
he created something called Everyone realised, | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
no one could believe, what he said. Now, when I hear | :39:29. | :39:38. | |
the telephone tapes, I hear him telling his advisers, I've decided | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
to send 75,000 men to Vietnam. He says, but let's say | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
the policy hasn't changed. Remember that in everything you say, | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
we haven't changed the policy. But everyone knew he had changed | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
his policy. For years he would say, | :39:58. | :39:59. | |
I see the light, we are winning. The disenchantment with the American | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
presidency, in your words, not believing what | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
the president tells us, that really Before Watergate, we think of it | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
as starting at Watergate. If people say it started with | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
Watergate, they don't remember it started before Watergate, | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
it started with Vietnam. You are almost 80 years old, | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
and you've said, if anything should happen to you, that means you can't | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
finish this fifth volume, you don't want anyone else to finish it or | :40:30. | :40:36. | |
take the work and complete it. I want everything, you know, | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
that I've done under my name to be If someone else wants to write about | :40:41. | :40:58. | |
Lyndon Johnson, of course many people do, they are writing about | :40:59. | :41:06. | |
him now, that's fine, but I don't... You know, there are others, like | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
Manchester's biography of Churchill, People who read that book say, this | :41:10. | :41:11. | |
isn't William Manchester's writing. If you had to encapsulate | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
the one lesson that Johnson teaches You'd better bring the public | :41:17. | :41:18. | |
along with you. Like on Vietnam, if you try to do | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
something and conceal it from the public, in the first place they | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
are going to find out about it. If you haven't bought them along, | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
in the end you are going to fail. | :41:33. | :41:37. |