29/10/2015 Newsnight


29/10/2015

With Emily Maitlis. China's one-child policy ends, there's a search for a Syrian child refugee, the EU vote, free speech on campus and the latest on Kids Company.


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Forced sterilisation, fines and abortion - the world's

:00:00.:00:00.

longest and most brutal birth control experiment comes to an end.

:00:00.:00:10.

What has been the consequence of China's one child policy?

:00:11.:00:18.

And what do our aging populations mean for the world economy?

:00:19.:00:22.

Finding Azam - the young Syrian boy who

:00:23.:00:24.

Belgrade vanished. He had a broken jaw and he disappeared. -- we found

:00:25.:00:39.

this boy in Belgrade and he vanished. Can you? It is in Arabic.

:00:40.:00:41.

Can you help me look for him? British universities always used to

:00:42.:00:44.

be about free speech, So why have our campuses become

:00:45.:00:46.

so quick to censor? We ask the Leeds University Union

:00:47.:00:50.

affairs officer Good evening. China's one child

:00:51.:00:57.

policy is estimated to have Put like that,

:00:58.:01:04.

you start to get a sense of the effect it has had on the country

:01:05.:01:08.

over the last three decades. Two generations with no cousins,

:01:09.:01:14.

no aunts no uncles, China,

:01:15.:01:20.

which once strove to control the - is now trying to do precisely

:01:21.:01:27.

the opposite, and make it grow. Meets three products of China's one

:01:28.:01:45.

child policy. When I was a child, sometimes I felt a bit lonely. I am

:01:46.:01:53.

happy with my family because they only have one child. They took care

:01:54.:01:58.

of me well. I would prefer to have an older brother or a younger

:01:59.:02:05.

sister. Sometimes in my childhood, I felt lonely. Peking has decreed a

:02:06.:02:11.

simple but drastic remedy. Every couple should have only one child.

:02:12.:02:16.

That policy had serious consequences. Not least because

:02:17.:02:20.

people often felt incentivised to make sure that they are one child

:02:21.:02:25.

was a boy. With one child, you get considerable privileges. When people

:02:26.:02:28.

can only have one child, and this is true around the world, not just

:02:29.:02:32.

China, and they have the technology to choose between having a boy or a

:02:33.:02:39.

girl, through scanning and other technology, and aborting foetuses is

:02:40.:02:46.

legal, as it is in China, and the incentives to another point or

:02:47.:02:50.

greater, status and income, the prospects are greater for boys. When

:02:51.:02:54.

the policy was first introduced, China was very poor. The country's

:02:55.:02:58.

leadership feared that they would be ruined by overpopulation. 35 years

:02:59.:03:03.

later, a lot has changed. After an economic boom, there is a new fear

:03:04.:03:07.

that there are not enough young people and China will become old

:03:08.:03:13.

before it becomes rich. This is what democracy is called China's

:03:14.:03:17.

population pyramid in 1980. As the one child rule came into force. It

:03:18.:03:22.

shows the percentage of the population at various ages. 35 years

:03:23.:03:26.

ago, China had lots of young people, too many for the authorities. Fast

:03:27.:03:30.

forward to now and there are fewer children and the pyramid bulges in

:03:31.:03:35.

the middle. The fear is that as they retire, there will not be enough

:03:36.:03:40.

workers to support them. At first, the policy was strictly enforced but

:03:41.:03:42.

it has been relaxed as the policy was strictly enforced but

:03:43.:03:45.

changed. Before today, the policy was strictly enforced but

:03:46.:03:48.

many exemptions it only covered around one in three people. At the

:03:49.:03:52.

beginning it was very significant. Most people lived in the

:03:53.:03:57.

and demographic growth was higher. Economic incentives to

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and demographic growth was higher. fertility were not there.

:04:00.:04:01.

and demographic growth was higher. effect has been decreasing over time

:04:02.:04:06.

and there has been more exemptions. That has been one factor. As women

:04:07.:04:11.

have got educated, as the cost of living in urban areas has gone up, a

:04:12.:04:13.

small apartment costing a living in urban areas has gone up, a

:04:14.:04:17.

money, Skilling costs going up, the incentives have gone down. China's

:04:18.:04:20.

neighbours have lower fertility rates. China is publicly grappling

:04:21.:04:27.

with the economic fallout of demographic change. Less publicly,

:04:28.:04:32.

so is the wider world. This graph shows the percentage of the global

:04:33.:04:37.

population of working age. Starting in the 1970s, it rose sharply as the

:04:38.:04:42.

baby boomers entered the workforce and declining fertility rates meant

:04:43.:04:46.

fewer children. For decades, there were more workers and fewer

:04:47.:04:50.

dependents. But now people live longer and the working age share it

:04:51.:04:53.

looks to have peaked. It has started to fall globally. And the World Bank

:04:54.:04:58.

think that fall will last for decades. Demographic changes mean

:04:59.:05:06.

more workers and the end of the Cold War turbo-charged this trend. For

:05:07.:05:10.

four decades, the supply of workers has been plentiful. Economists have

:05:11.:05:14.

spoken about a global glut of labour. One consequence of that has

:05:15.:05:18.

been a multi decade slowdown in the rate of wage growth. But if the

:05:19.:05:22.

demographics have turned, and oversupply is coming to an end, then

:05:23.:05:27.

existing workers should have more bargaining power. We might expect

:05:28.:05:31.

wage growth to pick up. But how do we pay for longer retirement with

:05:32.:05:35.

fewer workers? Demographics are hard to shift. How do you stop second

:05:36.:05:42.

babies being born? China's Communist party changed the world once and now

:05:43.:05:46.

it has done it again. But even it cannot order a baby boomer. What

:05:47.:05:53.

chance it gets its way? I would like to have more than one child. Two or

:05:54.:05:57.

three is most suitable. I would prefer to have to. A girl and a boy.

:05:58.:06:06.

I have not put too much thought into the question. I would prefer two, a

:06:07.:06:14.

boy and a girl. That is my expectation. Duncan Weldon with that

:06:15.:06:20.

report. With us now George Magnus,

:06:21.:06:22.

who has written a book on this subject, and joins us

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from Canada and anthropologist Anni Kajanus, who's lived in China

:06:25.:06:27.

and studied the cultural impact Thank you for coming in. Starting

:06:28.:06:38.

with you, Anni, will this radically change what's China looks like in

:06:39.:06:42.

the future? I don't think so. I think where this policy change is

:06:43.:06:46.

going to have the biggest impact is in urban areas. Where it has been

:06:47.:06:53.

more strictly monitored, the policy. I not think that it will result in a

:06:54.:07:06.

significant demographic change although it may result in a

:07:07.:07:09.

short-term baby boomer. What has been the main cultural impact of the

:07:10.:07:11.

last few decades? Out of China, we have heard the horror stories of

:07:12.:07:13.

forced sterilisation, abortion, the gender imbalance. Is that true on

:07:14.:07:19.

the ground? Is that what has been happening? To some extent, yes.

:07:20.:07:31.

Especially in the underdeveloped areas, the policy has met resistance

:07:32.:07:37.

because parents rely on their sons primarily to take care of them in

:07:38.:07:41.

old age. And so there is a strong preference for sons, and there has

:07:42.:07:47.

been. In some rural areas, the policy has been strictly unfermented

:07:48.:07:52.

but in most of the areas, people are able to have three children, at

:07:53.:07:58.

least one son. In urban areas, where the single child is the norm, it has

:07:59.:08:02.

had a huge impact on the Chinese family. And on women's position, and

:08:03.:08:09.

the position of doctors in Chinese families. There has been a drastic

:08:10.:08:16.

increase on families investing in their daughters' futures. Sons and

:08:17.:08:23.

daughters, they grow up with family support. And pressure! This is like

:08:24.:08:34.

at gigantic experiment, the like of which the world has never seen. This

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is uncharted territory in terms of what happens next. It is. It has

:08:39.:08:46.

certainly been an experiment. The only one that we are aware of where

:08:47.:08:50.

the state has actually interfered in the reproductive habits of its

:08:51.:08:55.

citizens. Although to be fair, for the last three or four years, things

:08:56.:09:00.

have been relaxed gradually. But even the relaxation of the one child

:09:01.:09:05.

policy, until today, or until the formal abandonment, it has not been

:09:06.:09:12.

effective. Two years ago, China was relaxing the policy so that if you

:09:13.:09:17.

were, as a parent, the product of a 1 child family, you were allowed to

:09:18.:09:23.

have two children and they expected 11 million households would be

:09:24.:09:28.

eligible to take advantage of this relaxation. Of these 11 million

:09:29.:09:34.

households, they thought that 2 million might apply to have a second

:09:35.:09:41.

child but barely half actually did. And as far as we can tell, not even

:09:42.:09:45.

that many actually have done. So the issue about controlling the

:09:46.:09:50.

population through this policy was not a particularly good policy and

:09:51.:09:53.

it did not really work. Abandoning it will not have much of fact, I

:09:54.:09:59.

agree with your other guest. So what happens? What happens in terms of

:10:00.:10:04.

the problem they have got with the ageing population. Not unlike many

:10:05.:10:07.

of its neighbours and countries in Europe, but if this does not work,

:10:08.:10:13.

what happens? Well, China has exactly the same problem in managing

:10:14.:10:21.

this issue as we did in the United Kingdom and in the West. They have

:10:22.:10:28.

to develop coping mechanisms, we all do, to deal with the labour supply

:10:29.:10:32.

problem. This is unique in human history. We have this combination of

:10:33.:10:39.

weak fertility, low fertility, and very long increases in life

:10:40.:10:43.

expectancies. That is squeezing the working age population. So how do

:10:44.:10:49.

you deal with that? Immigration is one way to deal with it but the

:10:50.:10:55.

Chinese do not have much immigration. You can have laws that

:10:56.:11:00.

make it more possible for women and older workers to work for longer,

:11:01.:11:04.

and raise the retirement age. Or maybe you start paying people to

:11:05.:11:08.

have bigger families? I wonder, Anni, turning to those two points,

:11:09.:11:14.

immigration, we have not seen China turn to immigration in a big way.

:11:15.:11:19.

Could that starts to happen now? And secondly, the propaganda involved in

:11:20.:11:21.

telling people that they were better off, doing more for China, for the

:11:22.:11:27.

motherland, by having one child. How do you reverse that mindset? I don't

:11:28.:11:33.

think it will be reversible. This process in China happened in a very

:11:34.:11:41.

radical way but this is basically a demographic transition that has

:11:42.:11:43.

happened in other countries also. Once the standard of living rises

:11:44.:11:48.

and women's educational level rises, people tend to have fewer

:11:49.:11:52.

children. This will not change. In urban families, the current young

:11:53.:11:58.

parents are already the generation who were an only child. So they have

:11:59.:12:02.

had this support from their families, and also the pressure. In

:12:03.:12:09.

my experience, in my research, I find that parents want to go easy on

:12:10.:12:14.

the child, but to put so much pressure on the child. To just have

:12:15.:12:21.

one child, or a maximum of two. They want to be able to really support

:12:22.:12:25.

the child. George Magnus, do you think that it will turn to

:12:26.:12:28.

immigration now? Is it something that will be on the cards for China

:12:29.:12:32.

or do you think they will have two incentivise people, and more

:12:33.:12:35.

importantly, is this a political gesture to the outside world, as

:12:36.:12:43.

opposed to a domestic strategy? I don't think it is a political

:12:44.:12:49.

gesture. I think this is recognition of, the culmination of a series of

:12:50.:12:54.

easing measures on policy. And the formal abandonment now means that

:12:55.:12:58.

China actually has two address head-on the issue of a shrinking

:12:59.:13:04.

working age population, which will happen in the foreseeable future.

:13:05.:13:07.

Incentives to make people have children, we know that empirically,

:13:08.:13:11.

in Russia, Spain, France, and many other countries, cash incentives

:13:12.:13:15.

have been given to women to have more children and it has not worked.

:13:16.:13:18.

Economic development is the best contraceptive of all. What happens,

:13:19.:13:25.

partly in China because of the cost of education and health care, it is

:13:26.:13:30.

a big constraint. But as people get better off, and parents go out to

:13:31.:13:38.

work, it is difficult to switch people's reproductive habits. I do

:13:39.:13:42.

not think this policy working. Immigration is not something the

:13:43.:13:47.

Chinese will embrace, I think. But in other countries like the United

:13:48.:13:50.

Kingdom, it is having a significant effect. Thank you both.

:13:51.:13:53.

Some tragedies are so enormous you can't grip them.

:13:54.:13:56.

The war in Syria and the exodus of refugees caused

:13:57.:13:59.

The story of Azam is about the fate of one small boy from Damascus.

:14:00.:14:06.

John Sweeney met him in Serbia in pain with a broken jaw.

:14:07.:14:09.

Then he and the man with him vanished

:14:10.:14:11.

Social media clamoured for Azam to be found and,

:14:12.:14:18.

for Newsnight, John travelled 1,500 miles on the refugee trail in what

:14:19.:14:21.

I am searching for one small boy from Damascus inside a pipeline of

:14:22.:14:45.

humanity. A quarter of a million people have passed through this

:14:46.:14:48.

reception centre in Serbia this month, most of them running from the

:14:49.:14:53.

war in Syria. I've got a strange thing. Who speaks English? You speak

:14:54.:15:01.

some? I was here a month ago and we found this boy in Belgrade and then

:15:02.:15:06.

he vanished. He had a broken jaw and he disappeared. It's in Arabic. Can

:15:07.:15:20.

you help me look for him? The boy I am looking for is Azam

:15:21.:15:32.

Aldahan and I met him last month. Finding Azam seems virtually

:15:33.:15:40.

impossible. Maybe it is worth a try, giving pieces of paper out. Azam had

:15:41.:15:47.

been run over in Macedonia, or so this man said.

:15:48.:15:57.

Azam mother was in Turkey, so where was his dad? They are travelling in

:15:58.:16:10.

a group of 13 men. It looks like he has broken his jaw... The next day

:16:11.:16:20.

in Belgrade, I met Azam again. He was alone, clearly in pain, and his

:16:21.:16:27.

wound looked infected. Doctor Radmila Kosic was running a

:16:28.:16:31.

makeshift clinic for the refugees. It's all right, son, it's OK. We

:16:32.:16:38.

will just clean the wound and send him in an ambulance to the hospital.

:16:39.:16:44.

Where is his father? He was here a minute ago. Our interpreter had a

:16:45.:16:51.

quiet word with Azam. The little boy has told us he is not with his

:16:52.:16:56.

father. His father is still in Turkey so he is going to hospital on

:16:57.:17:01.

his own. It seems he is travelling with uncles or something, but for

:17:02.:17:05.

the moment his uncle has gone. He is on his own. Finally, the man who

:17:06.:17:13.

told us he was his father returned. Our translator was worried, and

:17:14.:17:19.

questioned the man. Whoever the man is, he didn't want to hang around in

:17:20.:17:27.

Serbia. But Azam and the man did get in the ambulance and went to

:17:28.:17:33.

hospital. Foot weeks, no news of Azam, but finally the medical

:17:34.:17:38.

authorities told us, before Azam could get the treatment he urgently

:17:39.:17:43.

needed, Azam and the man had vanished. That should never have

:17:44.:17:48.

happened, says doctor Kosic. The child could have serious injuries

:17:49.:17:55.

after that traffic accident, I was told, so he should be in the

:17:56.:17:59.

hospital, not on the road. He might have serious infections and some

:18:00.:18:04.

concussion, brain concussion or something. He should not be on the

:18:05.:18:12.

road. He should be in hospital. So not that much joy in Belgrade. Time

:18:13.:18:21.

to rejoin the refugee track. Since Azam passed through Serbia in

:18:22.:18:27.

September, it has moved 100 miles west. The people running from one

:18:28.:18:34.

well have ended up in another, a town where Serbia stops and Croatia

:18:35.:18:42.

begins. Croatia is over there. About 1000 people are waiting. Here is the

:18:43.:18:47.

bad news. They are expecting 10,000 more tonight.

:18:48.:18:58.

And yet, even here, the wretched of the Earth have time to help with the

:18:59.:19:10.

search for Azam. The police here aren't exactly welcoming, but these

:19:11.:19:19.

people are running from killing. We Europeans may boast about our

:19:20.:19:22.

political stability but, in this very part of the world 24 years ago,

:19:23.:19:29.

I witnessed Serbs and Croats running and killing each other. Night falls

:19:30.:19:36.

and everything becomes grim, remote than before. The urge to sleep, but

:19:37.:19:45.

they need to get on. -- more grim than before. The dawn mist cloaks

:19:46.:19:57.

the hillside. Turning the apple orchards and cornfields by the

:19:58.:20:05.

border crossing into a ghost world. In the fog from war, children go

:20:06.:20:11.

missing. Some kids just wander off, only to reappear a short while

:20:12.:20:17.

later. But stories swirl air and online, pointing to something more

:20:18.:20:24.

sinister. Holding a child, I noticed, get you across the border

:20:25.:20:28.

faster. Some kids who got lost have not been found. The cold makes your

:20:29.:20:42.

bones creak. This family from Damascus light a fire to make

:20:43.:20:43.

coffee. We are looking for a boy. 10,000 people are waiting. The

:20:44.:21:13.

Croats allow batches of 50 to cross at any one time. The result, the cue

:21:14.:21:21.

from hell. If you are disabled, you get fast tracked, just like at

:21:22.:21:24.

Heathrow. Well, not quite. It's wet. I was rubbish at this at

:21:25.:21:34.

school, and I still am. It's up. We had a tip-off that Azam had ended

:21:35.:22:00.

up in Munich. Here, refugees find not poisoned gas and severed heads

:22:01.:22:05.

at a world of grey, the drizzle of the human soul. This is a German

:22:06.:22:11.

refugee camp and, for some at least, the end of the long road. It is for

:22:12.:22:16.

us, too. The German Red Cross have told us, you are not family so,

:22:17.:22:21.

according to our rules, we can't help you. We've tried but, so far,

:22:22.:22:26.

we've failed to find Azam. Our brilliant friends at BBC Arabic

:22:27.:22:51.

had been looking on Facebook, and they've found Azam's uncle. We

:22:52.:22:56.

checked out his friends, and there he is, in Germany tonight. In the

:22:57.:23:02.

photograph, red flowers, purple flowers. In the background, sports

:23:03.:23:09.

shop. In the windows of the shop, the windows of the building

:23:10.:23:14.

opposite, reflected. Circle windows, square windows. Azam's uncle sat in

:23:15.:23:24.

this chair. Finding the man in the chair wasn't that simple. The uncle

:23:25.:23:29.

got back to us via Facebook. We travelled the length of journey to

:23:30.:23:33.

meet him, only to discover he'd switched his phone off. So we drove

:23:34.:23:39.

around in circles and I feared I would never meet Azam again, until

:23:40.:23:41.

this... If you are the uncle, why didn't you

:23:42.:23:58.

say you were the uncle when you first met us?

:23:59.:24:18.

What was the name of the doctor in Belgrade who said that it was fine

:24:19.:24:27.

for Azam, with a broken jaw, to go on the road to Germany?

:24:28.:24:46.

Where is Azam's mother and father now?

:24:47.:25:06.

The good news? We've just learned that Azam's mum and dad have made it

:25:07.:25:16.

to Germany, and we hope to speak to them soon. There's no sign of the

:25:17.:25:23.

war in Syria ending but, in all this darkness, the story of Azam, once so

:25:24.:25:30.

full of pain... Good to see you, Azam. Now, a point of light. Amazing

:25:31.:25:40.

to find a story with a happy ending. Azam's tale has been -

:25:41.:25:43.

one way or another - the story The progress and the struggle

:25:44.:25:45.

of thousands of migrants across the borders have been images

:25:46.:25:49.

that will leave their imprint And perhaps that explains why -

:25:50.:25:52.

politically - there may be a new urgency to

:25:53.:25:55.

resolve the bigger question of Britain's place in the European

:25:56.:25:58.

Union sooner rather than later. What are you hearing? Well, I think

:25:59.:26:13.

actually the images of last summer's migrant crisis is playing

:26:14.:26:18.

on both camps in the EU referendum campaign. For the out campaign, over

:26:19.:26:23.

the summer, they felt it was definitely starting to tip public

:26:24.:26:28.

opinion on their way. I have spoken to people in the in campaign for

:26:29.:26:30.

that reason who don't want the to people in the in campaign for

:26:31.:26:33.

referendum to be staged anywhere near next summer, which they think

:26:34.:26:37.

will have another migrant problem. There is a pitch from people around

:26:38.:26:43.

the Chancellor, for instance, let's get this done really quickly and not

:26:44.:26:48.

have it dominate the parliament. Many Eurosceptics think the

:26:49.:26:51.

government has ruled out going quickly with a snap referendum. We

:26:52.:26:55.

have been shown evidence that there is no ruling out of that. It is

:26:56.:27:00.

possible they could go as soon as April. I don't think that is

:27:01.:27:02.

likely, for several reasons. The April. I don't think that is

:27:03.:27:06.

last of which is probably the migrant crisis point, which we will

:27:07.:27:08.

come onto. migrant crisis point, which we will

:27:09.:27:13.

probably have another row in the migrant crisis point, which we will

:27:14.:27:16.

probably more unpopularity by saying migrant crisis point, which we will

:27:17.:27:20.

that extreme -year-olds should be allowed to vote, and the House of

:27:21.:27:23.

Commons allowed to vote, and the House of

:27:24.:27:28.

16-year-old. They don't know what David Cameron wants in the

:27:29.:27:32.

renegotiation package. You then come back to this issue about,

:27:33.:27:35.

renegotiation package. You then come want it that window of the next

:27:36.:27:37.

migrant crisis? I think, want it that window of the next

:27:38.:27:43.

least a year away for the referendum.

:27:44.:27:52.

have started banning those they believe

:27:53.:27:54.

Last week, Cardiff University students signed a petition to try to

:27:55.:27:59.

stop Germaine Greer from speaking at an event because of her

:28:00.:28:04.

She pulled out - telling Newsnight she felt too old

:28:05.:28:07.

Other commentators and writers have been banned

:28:08.:28:09.

by other student bodies which have decreed their views problematic.

:28:10.:28:12.

So are today's students more censorious -

:28:13.:28:16.

or more sophisticated about where the level of tolerance should begin?

:28:17.:28:26.

A rare victory for free speech in student politics, according to some.

:28:27.:28:30.

Next month, Wikileaks's controversial founder

:28:31.:28:33.

Julian Assange is to appear at the Cambridge Debating Society.

:28:34.:28:36.

The decision, which followed a referendum,

:28:37.:28:39.

triggered the resignation of the society's women's officer.

:28:40.:28:46.

The comedian known as Dapper Laughs was not so lucky.

:28:47.:28:48.

His planned show at Cardiff Student Union last year was

:28:49.:28:51.

cancelled following a petition signed by 700 students.

:28:52.:28:54.

Some student unions refuse to sell the Sun newspaper because

:28:55.:29:02.

of the potential for Page 3 models to cause offence.

:29:03.:29:07.

Even sombreros worn by restaurant staff advertising

:29:08.:29:10.

at a freshers' fair in Norwich were branded discriminatory with their

:29:11.:29:13.

It's all something of a far cry from the open-minded spirit

:29:14.:29:22.

of the 1960s, where difference and conflict was seen as something

:29:23.:29:25.

Here to discuss this are Toke Dahler from Leeds University Student Union,

:29:26.:29:39.

and the Times columnist David Aaronovitch.

:29:40.:29:43.

His Onto canvas? -- campus. Whenever society want to put on an event,

:29:44.:29:59.

they ask us if there is any particular risk or any reason to

:30:00.:30:03.

think that students would feel threatened or unsafe by inviting

:30:04.:30:07.

certain speakers, and we make a decision based on that assessment.

:30:08.:30:12.

What does that threat in tail? It is up to the students because we are a

:30:13.:30:18.

student union. Our primary most important task is to make sure that

:30:19.:30:21.

students feel safe and welcoming our building. Does that sound alien,

:30:22.:30:27.

David? It does because you could argue that one of the major

:30:28.:30:31.

responsibilities of a student union is to make sure that there is lively

:30:32.:30:35.

debate and discussion, that students are a part of democratic society,

:30:36.:30:40.

discussing things, rather than hermetically sealed away signed a

:30:41.:30:46.

form of intellectual rampart within which they can feel safe. The

:30:47.:30:54.

problem with what Toke is saying is that it is a problem of definition.

:30:55.:30:59.

And feel safe and what do they feel safer from? We know that in recent

:31:00.:31:05.

cases including the Muslim activist, who is now anti-religious,

:31:06.:31:10.

and it was attempted to get banned from Warwick University. They filled

:31:11.:31:14.

in a risk assessment and someone had said that she said terrible things

:31:15.:31:17.

in the past so people would not feel safer ranter and consequently she

:31:18.:31:21.

and her invitation withdrawn. The same thing with Jermaine Greer. The

:31:22.:31:29.

attempt was made to make her not speak at Cardiff because apparently

:31:30.:31:32.

transgender students might feel offended or unsafe. What does it

:31:33.:31:39.

mean for students to feel unsafe? Does it mean they can never be

:31:40.:31:46.

offended by a speaker? I am very interested in this, who has the

:31:47.:31:51.

right to define it? Who knows what feeling unsafe feels like? Not long

:31:52.:31:56.

ago a woman came to me and said that she had experienced two hate

:31:57.:31:59.

crimes, racially motivated hate crimes. She came to me and said, I

:32:00.:32:03.

would not feel safe if you invited the people from the same groups to

:32:04.:32:09.

the University union. I think that definition of feeling unsafe is

:32:10.:32:15.

better than your definition. Why? A student union is for students. It is

:32:16.:32:20.

our right to decide who comes in the building. It is the right of the

:32:21.:32:26.

students, not a Times columnist. I completely understand but that was

:32:27.:32:29.

not the point you were making. The point you were making was that

:32:30.:32:32.

somehow the judgment would be better about whether or not this person was

:32:33.:32:36.

some kind of risk. When this person comes to you, do you say to this

:32:37.:32:44.

person, what is the nature of the risk, somebody speaking, what would

:32:45.:32:47.

that represent? Let's look at what you think that is. Or do you take it

:32:48.:32:53.

on trust? Black students experience racism. They do not need to go to

:32:54.:32:57.

the student union to do that. We do not need to confront women with

:32:58.:33:04.

misogyny in the student union. We do not need to confront Jewish students

:33:05.:33:08.

with anti-Semitism. The student union is a place where students can

:33:09.:33:13.

gather and debate, but not a place where people should come and feel

:33:14.:33:22.

that... The question, there is a possibility that we are the

:33:23.:33:27.

dinosaurs here, and actually... It is a downright certainty in my case!

:33:28.:33:32.

This generation of students has said that we do not need to invite

:33:33.:33:37.

racists on. We do not need to invite in people who think that women are

:33:38.:33:41.

inferior, we are more diverse and it will add nothing to the debate. Is

:33:42.:33:46.

that wrong? It is, partially because there is not a settled view about

:33:47.:33:49.

who these people are in any case. Jermaine Greer does not fit these

:33:50.:33:53.

categories. Would you have banded Jermaine Greer? I would find it

:33:54.:34:04.

highly inappropriate and highly offensive to invite a person who

:34:05.:34:08.

does not think that transgender people are real people to

:34:09.:34:11.

transgender awareness week. You would not want somebody expressing

:34:12.:34:15.

that? Let's take it back. You would find it highly offensive to invite

:34:16.:34:21.

someone who did not think that trans-people were real people.

:34:22.:34:24.

Germaine Greer's argument, whether you accept it or not is that a

:34:25.:34:29.

transgender male to female is not a real woman. That is her view. Do you

:34:30.:34:33.

think that is a legitimate view for someone to express in front of

:34:34.:34:40.

students? I am sure that if she was invited to Leeds University union,

:34:41.:34:46.

that the students who identified as transgender would say that this was

:34:47.:34:49.

not who we want in our building. If they can convince the rest of the

:34:50.:34:52.

student body, who have democratically voted for our

:34:53.:34:58.

policy... Would they convince you? They have voted for officers like

:34:59.:35:04.

myself who believe in this platform. Have you had anyone that your

:35:05.:35:08.

students did not feel safe with? Now, and this is probably one of the

:35:09.:35:13.

biggest misconceptions. People think we banned this, that and the other.

:35:14.:35:19.

But have you had people who have caused offence? Naturally. Of

:35:20.:35:25.

course. Just this week we had debates on counterterrorism

:35:26.:35:27.

strategies and whether we should stay in the EU, on the composition

:35:28.:35:34.

of the curriculum, with even extreme views expressed. So what is not

:35:35.:35:38.

allowed? Because I struggle to see why you would want students to be

:35:39.:35:43.

cosseted from views they do not like. This is not about people being

:35:44.:35:49.

safe from views that they do not like. This is about being

:35:50.:35:54.

traumatised. How would Germaine Greer speaking traumatised people?

:35:55.:35:57.

People who were not already traumatised. In what way can you

:35:58.:36:03.

protect them from the outside world that banning Germaine Greer helps

:36:04.:36:07.

you with? This is the upside of protecting people from the outside

:36:08.:36:10.

world. This is realising that people get traumatised on the outside world

:36:11.:36:14.

and the student union should be a safe space where people do not

:36:15.:36:18.

go... Suppose the free-speech society comes to me and I am new and

:36:19.:36:23.

they say, this guy, he makes me feel unsafe with his desire to stop

:36:24.:36:28.

people speaking freely and I do not feel safe around him. Can you stop

:36:29.:36:34.

them? What should I do? You should Askey the fellow students. And if

:36:35.:36:38.

they say yes, I should ban you? If you get a petition saying that I am

:36:39.:36:43.

traumatising people, I would step down. Do you not worry, Toke, that

:36:44.:36:50.

your students are having a poor experience in the life than if they

:36:51.:36:56.

just said, we are going to take all of these people and we are going to

:36:57.:36:59.

ask them controversial questions, we might take them but we will listen

:37:00.:37:04.

to them? Students are challenged their lives. A study with people

:37:05.:37:08.

from different nationalities, they debate all kinds of things. I will

:37:09.:37:14.

challenge you to find a group people who get a wider range of views and

:37:15.:37:18.

who are confronted with more different experiences, wider range

:37:19.:37:24.

of experiences that students. In the case, why would you stop them

:37:25.:37:26.

reading the Sun, for instance? Why would you not sell it if that was

:37:27.:37:30.

what they wanted to buy. Why not allow speakers in that they want to

:37:31.:37:35.

invite. If they saw Paul... Open and able to debate, why do that? The

:37:36.:37:40.

questionnaires, if you have a racist society, why let your student union

:37:41.:37:48.

be racist as well. -- not in my union. Thank you for

:37:49.:37:50.

In their own words, the charity Kids Company used political lobbying,

:37:51.:37:53.

media briefing, arm twisting and a "bully strategy" to secure more than

:37:54.:37:55.

Talk us through that. Before us what was said today.

:37:56.:38:15.

Talk us through that. Before we knew that recently

:38:16.:38:17.

Talk us through that. Before had been given ?3

:38:18.:38:19.

Talk us through that. Before Cabinet Office, days before it

:38:20.:38:22.

collapsed, against the advice of civil servants.

:38:23.:38:23.

collapsed, against the advice of reveals is that actually it was not

:38:24.:38:26.

the reveals is that actually it was not

:38:27.:38:29.

that officials had advised ministers reveals is that actually it was not

:38:30.:38:32.

ministers felt they down to the bully strategy. The

:38:33.:38:37.

charity would come to a department and say, if we collapse, this will

:38:38.:38:41.

be terrible, particularly in South London. And they used this

:38:42.:38:45.

be terrible, particularly in South them self? Bully strategy is a

:38:46.:38:48.

phrase that the Chief Executive of the charity, Camila Batmanghelidjh,

:38:49.:38:52.

used about her approach in 2002. Effectively, they say to ministers

:38:53.:38:56.

that it will be really bad and their friends in the press would find out

:38:57.:39:01.

about it. The fact that the charity was very well connected, with Alan

:39:02.:39:04.

Yentob as its chair of trustees, that did not help. They sent out

:39:05.:39:10.

tentacles. So where does this go now? The big thing is that the story

:39:11.:39:13.

is moving now? The big thing is that the story

:39:14.:39:23.

minister who signed on to that, but actually the report gives them help

:39:24.:39:27.

because what it says is that it is not just them, they are not the only

:39:28.:39:28.

ones not just them, they are not the only

:39:29.:39:33.

to give money to this charity. It happened again and again, all the

:39:34.:39:38.

way back to 2002 and actually they asked Camila Batmanghelidjh to step

:39:39.:39:42.

down from the charity. Unusually, they can say when questioned in

:39:43.:39:44.

front of the Select they can say when questioned in

:39:45.:39:49.

money, but at least we were trying around. We did not just give it to

:39:50.:39:56.

them for nothing. Thank you very much. More on that tomorrow but that

:39:57.:39:59.

is all we have time for tonight. From all of us here, good night.

:40:00.:40:06.

is all we have time for tonight. From all of us here, good night.

:40:07.:40:12.

Good evening. Plenty of rain in the forecast for the start of Friday,

:40:13.:40:16.

particularly across England and Wales. A lot of surface water and

:40:17.:40:22.

spray. The eastern side of England should dry and brighten up, becoming

:40:23.:40:24.

quite

:40:25.:40:25.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.

China's one-child policy ends, there's a search for a Syrian child refugee, the EU vote, free speech on campus and the latest on Kids Company.


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