10/11/2015 Newsnight


10/11/2015

Newsnight talks to foreign secretary Philip Hammond in Washington about the war in Syria and the EU renegotiation.


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Britain, Syria and the so-called Islamic State.

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Are we a nation poised for action, inaction or indecisiveness?

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I'm in Washington and has been talking to the Foreign Secretary.

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No strategy, no foreign policy there at all. It is not fair to say we

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have no strategy but it is absolutely true to say that the

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speed and decisiveness of Russia's intervention has taken the

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international community by surprise. Talking of foreign policy -

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back in Britain, it's Europe day. The commitment in the treaty to an

:00:43.:00:54.

ever closer union is not a commitment that should apply any

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longer to Britain. We do not believe in it, we do not subscribe to it. We

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have a different vision for Europe. But is he doing a Wilson,

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a renegotiation pretending to be We have discussed

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the very controversial subject of cheese, on which I am satisfied

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with what has emerged this evening. Good evening from Washington, where

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the Foreign Secretary, Phillip Hammond, here in the US to hold

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talks on Syria with the Secretary of State, John Kerry, has confirmed to

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Newsnight that he'd like to see a House of Commons vote

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on airstrikes in Syria go ahead. He said he believes airstrikes in

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Iraq had saved Baghdad from falling, but the mission would need a local

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ground force of troops if the battle I asked him whether he believed

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the UK really had a foreign policy at all against Isis,

:01:50.:01:54.

what the airstrikes had achieved, whether Putin was currently seen as

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our enemy or our ally, and whether Britain monitored how Saudi Arabia

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used the ?5.4 billion worth We'll hear from the Foreign

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secretary in an extended interview First, here's our diplomatic editor,

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Mark Urban. There are pictures of bodies with

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symptoms consistent of that of nerve agent exposure. Our allies in the

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Middle East, like Saudi, Emirates and others cannot take military

:02:27.:02:29.

action, why does it fall on us again? For me the biggest danger of

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escalation is if the world community stands back and do nothing, because

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I think Assad will draw conclusions to that. The eyes to the

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The Government tried and failed to get Parliament's backing for strikes

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against the Assad regime after chemical weapons were used. Before

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the vote it seemed that as in Libya Britain might even draw a reluctant

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America into a. After it, the Government struggled to find a

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policy. We are encouraged people to take up rebellion against their

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dictators but we then weren't prepared to arm them once they had

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done so, so Syria's a classic case where we weren't quite prepared to

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go all the way through with the rhetorical and moral position that

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we took. In that sense we led people on to the punch. With the failure to

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secure parliamentary support, the US also stood back from bombing Assad.

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Britain then had to follow the American lead 15 months ago when

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operations against a different enemy, the self-declared Islamic

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State, started. I think it has become very clear that the approach

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that the coalition has decided to take is not going to have rapid

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effects. There may be ways in which we can speed it up, but there are

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also ways in which Isis are desperately trying to slow it down.

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So they use terror tactics. They use lots of vehicle-borne IEDs, but they

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also mine all the towns and cities that they operate in, which makes it

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very hard to move anywhere. America's offensive doesn't look

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capable of ensuring anything other than military stasis amid a

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diplomatic vacuum. So when Russia geared up for its intervention

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against the militants and in favour of the Assad regime, Britain finally

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had to come to terms with the death of any Arab Spring-type optimism on

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Syria. I think there was quite a lot of the Arab Spring, we are all going

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to be on the side of history. Nothing could be worse than these

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dictators. And what we found for a lot of people for many people are

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worse than some of these dictators. It is a Hobbsian world there in

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Syria and Iraq, absolutely ghastly. Russia's intervention has at least

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been the catalyst for a new diplomatic negotiation. It started

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last month in Vienna with the main foreign players trying to set the

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stage for Syrian peace talks. The UK at least was here, but does it know

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what it is trying to achieve now? In the end you've got to get a

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transition out of a civil war in Syria. For those parties who are

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going to be prepared to transition. That's not going to include Isis and

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other Islamist rejectionists who are going to try to impose their version

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of the world on others. But it should include the Syrian regime. It

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should include the Syrian opposition. There is within the

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Vienna nine points that came out nearly two weeks ago now there is

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the basis of an agreement. Let's get to work op that track and then the

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international community can then coalesce around, around our only

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common interests the defeat of Isis. Syrian civil war has been so violent

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and complex that British policy makers have struggled to find

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convincing answers. And all against a backdrop of uncertainty about

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whether their nation still wants great power status or overseas

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military entanglements. Well, this afternoon, at the UK

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amabassador's residence in Washington, I caught up with our

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Foreign Secretary, Philip Hammond. I asked about UK arms exports to

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Saudi Arabia and about our But I began by inquiring whether,

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given his fears the Egypt air crash could have been caused by an Isis

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bomb, the UK strategy towards Isis I don't think it changes anything

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notice way we deal with Isis. We've always known they were trying to do

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us harm. We've seen them executing our citizens, committing all sorts

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of atrocities in areas they control, so we absolutely know what kind of

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organisation we are dealing with. We are going after them and we'll

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continue to go after them. What does it mean? What it does change is the

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way that we deal with the threat, because that would suggest if this

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is what has happened that would suggest that there's a threat to

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civil aviation from Isis, which we have to respond to. So when you say

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going after them, Michael Fallon said it is morally indefensible not

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to bombitesis in Syria. Do you agree? What Michael Fallon said was

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that he has a difficulty with the idea that our allies are taking

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action on the basis of British reconnaissance flights, that we have

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to leave somebody else to carry out the strike. He said morally

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indefensible. It is no secret we would like to be able to extend our

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strike operations into oi. But we have to get that through the House

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of Commons. We'll go back to the House of Commons as soon as we are

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confident that we can win a vote in the House of Commons. This should be

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done on the basis of a broad consensus in the House of Commons.

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That has always been the tradition in Britain, when we are sending our

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Armed Forces into combat, that we do it on the basis of a broad

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consensus. I think that's deliverable. The changes in the

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Labour leadership have created some uncertainty about the dynamics in

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the Commons. We've got to let that settle down. You think that you

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suggest the bombing has achieved things so far by the UK in Iraq, by

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the US and allies and Iraq and Syria? Yes. What has it achieved? Is

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well, first of all the intervention in Iraq, the use of allied air

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power, coalition air power in Iraq stopped what was a precipitate

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advance towards Baghdad. If you take your mind back 18 months Baghdad

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looked as though it was going to fall to the Isil advance. Do you

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think it would have fallen without that? There was a serious risk. We

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stopped in its tracks. Since that time Isil have lost 30% of the

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territory they occupied in Iraq at the peak of their power, so it has

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had an effect. But we have always said that you can't win a war

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against an organisation like Isil by air power alone. Eventually there'll

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have to be a ground force dimension to this combat. A ground force of

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what kind of troops? Well, it won't be British or American or European

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troops. It will have to be people from the region ideally. In Iraq it

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will be Iraqi forces raised and trained in Iraq and a force that's

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reflective of the population of the areas that Isil currently operates.

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Who are partners on the ground in Syria? In Syria we have a moderate

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opposition force. Somewhere between 60,000 and 80,000 fighters on the

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ground now, primarily fighting the Assad regime. But who are also

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strongly opposed to Isil. Talk me through that slowly, because if we

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are attacking Isis and succeeding under the scenario, the beneficiary

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is Assad. So how are the people that are currently fighting Assad going

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to be helping us? Well, not the case. As the Assad regime is not in

:10:27.:10:32.

practice fighting Isil. There's a couple of points of contact between

:10:33.:10:37.

the regime and Isil forces, but primarily the regime is being

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challenged by non-Isil moderate prosecution groups and al-Nusra.

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Isil in their stronghold has quite carefully kept itself disengaged

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from the main fight ing with the regime, and we though that the

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regime has done deals with Isil. They trade with Isil. You concede,

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though, that if Isis were weakened Assad would be stronger? If Isis

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were weakened... I don't necessarily accept that, no. There's a three-way

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fight going on here. We've got the moderate opposition and Isil. Isil

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would like to control all of the territory of Syria but effectively

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it has abandoned the part of the country where Isil is. Is it is

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taking on the opposition forces that are primarily non-Isil forces. That

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three-way fight, the third part of that fight is currently being bombed

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by Russia. By Putin. The moderate opposition, the Russian intervention

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claimed to be in the name of the fight against Isil has been largely

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directed against the moderate opposition, which tells us that the

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real intelligence of Russia's intervention is to shore up the

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Assad regime. I have no doubt that Russia shares our ambition to

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destroy Isil in the longer term, but we have a difference of view about

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how best to do that. The Russians think you do it by shoring up the

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Assad regime and going off Isil. We don't think you can settle the

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conflict between Assad and the opposition without agreeing a date

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and a modality for Assad's departure. So as things stand, do

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you look at President Putin and say, you are our ally in this fight? Not

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at the moment, but Putin could be our ally if he decides to work with

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us in order to achieve a political transition. We've got two different

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struggles here. We've got the struggle against Isil, which has to

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be a military struggle. There isn't a deal you can cut with Isil. There

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isn't a negotiation to be had with them. They can't be part of the

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political future of Syria. And then we've got a civil war going on.

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Everybody is agreed that the solution to that has to be a

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political one, not a military one. Everybody's agreed that it would be

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a mistake to dismantle the regime and create a vacuum, as happened in

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Iraq. What we need to do is remove those with the most blood on their

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hands at the top of the asset regime, bring in representatives of

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the moderate opposition and form a transitional Government in Syria

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that can take the country forward. Isn't the truth that we have been

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outflanked quite rawly and bluntly by President Putin here? And when

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you look at our strategy in Syria, in Iraq, against Isis, that Ramadi's

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fallen, Palmyra has fallen, Mosul is in Isil's hands. We've got 700

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British citizens going to fight for Isis and a wave of hundreds of

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thousands of migrants leaving the country, with very no strategy? We

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have no foreign policy there at all. It is not true to say we have no

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strategy but it is absolutely true to say that the speed and

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decisiveness of Russia's intervention has taken the

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international community by surprise. We are in the process of responding

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to that. Russia is both carrying out military action and joining us at

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the table. We'll be meeting against this weekend in Vienna with 19

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countries to try and move forward on the political track. The Russians

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say they want a political solution. They say they accept the need for a

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political solution. Actually... With Assad. With Assad. And that's the

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big point of difference between us and the Russians and Iranians. I

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want to look more broadly now at what the Foreign Office does. David

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Cameron said in 2012 those emphasis you've got, turn them into showrooms

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for cars, department stores for our fashion. That's what's happened

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isn't it? Trade is an important part of the

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overseas missions. It is now embedded in the mainstream of our

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diplomacy around the world. In Washington had senior executives

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from a dozen US companies investing in the UK. To encourage them to

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invest more is my goal. The mission in Saudi Arabia, the weapons sold,

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would you like that figure to be higher? We would always like to do

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more business, more British exports and jobs. And in this case high end

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engineering jobs protected and created. By our diplomacy abroad.

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Does it matter what Saudi Arabia does with the weaponry, if it is

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used against civilians in Yemen or against protesters at home? It does

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matter and we have one of the strip is export licensing regimes in the

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world. We only export weapons systems were all the criteria of our

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export licensing system are met. So you know those British weapons are

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not being used in Yemen, you know that? I know some of them are being

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used in Yemen, it does not fall foul of the export licensing criteria. It

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would be hypocritical to think we could have a large defence industry

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exporting weapons systems and they never get used. So you do not have a

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veto in where the weapons are used or how? What matters is they are

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used legally in compliance with international humanitarian law, and

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we monitor that carefully. Saudi Arabia is currently accused of war

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crimes in Yemen. The UK signed up to the arms control treaty. So if those

:16:50.:17:02.

weapons are being used in Yemen, as war crimes, then that carries

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criminal sanctions for the government? You made a huge leap of

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logic there. Which part of the do not agree with M those weapons are

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being used, some of them, in Yemen. The important thing is they're being

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used legally in an international armed conflict. There have been

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accusations of breaches of international humanitarian law, we

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regularly intervened with the Saudis to encourage them to be transparent

:17:34.:17:36.

with us. Have you intervened here with their use in Yemen? Yes, I was

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in Saudi Arabia a couple of weeks ago and we discussed this issue.

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What did they tell you? The Saudis deny they have been any breaches of

:17:48.:17:51.

international Unitarian law. That denial alone is not enough, we need

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proper investigations. We need to work with the Saudis to establish

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that international humanitarian law has been complied with. And we have

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an export licence system that responds if we find that it has not.

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We then find we cannot licence additional shipments of weapons. We

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all understand there is pragmatism involved in foreign policy, but do

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you worry that the ethical dimension, the moral dimension, what

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you came into the job to do, is being lost? I do not. I do draw a

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distinction between appropriate approach simply preaching of people,

:18:38.:18:41.

and engagement approach. If you want to be able to influence the way

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people behave you have to be engaged with them, you have to have some

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leveraged in your discussions with them. Countries like Saudi Arabia

:18:51.:18:56.

where we have strong collaboration, we work together in many areas and

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not just trade but security as well, we collaborate on security with

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Saudi Arabia in a way which saves British lives. But that gives us an

:19:05.:19:10.

ability to discuss with them more difficult issues as well and to get

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results. Philip Hammond there on Britain's

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wider strategy for dealing with Isis and on whether our foreign policy

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could still be said to have Later in the programme - as the

:19:20.:19:22.

Prime Minister lays out his plans to restrict EU migration by restricting

:19:23.:19:26.

benefits for four years to those coming in, we ask the Foreign

:19:27.:19:29.

secretary if that's even legal, and if he believes the measure could be

:19:30.:19:32.

accepted by the EU member states. And tomorrow

:19:33.:19:41.

we'll be hot on the trail of Donald Trump, the Republican Party

:19:42.:19:43.

candidate who now says this election This is a strange election,

:19:44.:19:46.

isn't it? You stab somebody and the

:19:47.:19:49.

newspapers say you didn't do it. And you say, "Yes, I did.

:19:50.:19:52.

I did it." A Prime Minister writes quite a

:19:53.:20:06.

few letters - or has them written. But none will be as important

:20:07.:20:09.

for David Cameron Six pages to Donald Tusk,

:20:10.:20:11.

President of the European Council. It had more than you might have

:20:12.:20:15.

expected, but far less than the radical

:20:16.:20:21.

programme sceptics had hoped. First, Economic Governance -

:20:22.:20:23.

all about euro and non-euro members, The second heading is

:20:24.:20:31.

called Competitiveness. This one is what some specialists

:20:32.:20:34.

call retail politics. Here, for example, the euro members

:20:35.:20:48.

should not be able to stitch up Competitiveness mainly concerns

:20:49.:20:54.

cutting red tape Britain opting out of

:20:55.:21:06.

"ever closer union". And this also proposal

:21:07.:21:15.

that if a group of national parliaments

:21:16.:21:17.

don't like an EU proposal, they This is the one that has

:21:18.:21:20.

the well-publicised four-year rule - that migrants can't claim in-work

:21:21.:21:24.

benefits in their first four years. A mix of some familiar British

:21:25.:21:28.

themes, plus some extras. And what about tax credits?

:21:29.:21:55.

Today that her minister set out his demands for EU reform in a letter to

:21:56.:22:01.

the European Council. We proposed the people coming to Britain from

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the EU are to live here and contribute for four years before

:22:05.:22:08.

qualifying for in what benefits were social housing. And we should end

:22:09.:22:11.

the practice of sending child benefit overseas. The UK is

:22:12.:22:17.

re-negotiated arrangements with Europe and has done it before. In

:22:18.:22:22.

the 1970s and 1980s under Margaret Thatcher. She secured a much

:22:23.:22:25.

heralded rebate to date with millions of pounds annually.

:22:26.:22:35.

Times change. This building is no longer Conservative headquarters.

:22:36.:22:39.

Ironically it is now Europe house. And this renegotiation is not about

:22:40.:22:43.

the money, the Prime Minister says the change will save half ?1 billion

:22:44.:22:48.

per year, a number disputed by others, but it is not about the

:22:49.:22:52.

saving at making the UK are less attractive place for people to move

:22:53.:22:56.

from Europe to work here. Fundamentally this is about

:22:57.:23:01.

immigration. For much of the public immigration is the key issue. But

:23:02.:23:08.

the Prime Minister has retreated from any fundamental change in the

:23:09.:23:12.

nature of free movement. Blunt instruments like quotas and caps on

:23:13.:23:15.

numbers are out and now the approach is to restrict benefits. That means

:23:16.:23:19.

discriminating against EU citizens in the welfare state and will be

:23:20.:23:24.

tricky to get other leaders to agree to that. This is the toughest part

:23:25.:23:29.

of his negotiation proposals. It will be tough to reach agreement but

:23:30.:23:33.

this is the one area he really needs to get something. Immigration is

:23:34.:23:37.

such a hot topic in this country. I think there will be opposition from

:23:38.:23:41.

East European states and Poland in particular, but are they willing to

:23:42.:23:46.

risk the UK leaving the EU on this issue? If a deal on restricting

:23:47.:23:53.

benefits cannot be found at EU level another option is restricting access

:23:54.:23:57.

to in work benefits for everyone, British or European. No

:23:58.:24:00.

discrimination there. Stop anyone getting anything out until they have

:24:01.:24:04.

paid in. But reforming British social security system is seems a

:24:05.:24:10.

radical step. It is a sledgehammer to crack a nut, it would be a

:24:11.:24:14.

complex undertaking to re-engineer the already troubled universal

:24:15.:24:19.

credit system so it is a contributory system. It seems the

:24:20.:24:23.

disproportionate response to a fairly small problem after all. Even

:24:24.:24:26.

if a deal can be done with Europe around the UK to discriminate

:24:27.:24:30.

against recent EU migrants when it comes to benefits, or if we offer

:24:31.:24:37.

our own welfare system to make it contributory, there was reason to

:24:38.:24:40.

believe that might not even bring down immigration from Europe. One

:24:41.:24:43.

centrepiece of George Osborne 's economic policy is the national

:24:44.:24:46.

living wage. The leave campaign are keen to point out that that will

:24:47.:24:51.

mean that even with benefit changes, any EU migrants would still be

:24:52.:24:57.

better off in 2020. The proposal is not likely to bring down

:24:58.:25:00.

immigration, or be enough to satisfy those who want more fundamental

:25:01.:25:04.

change in our relationship with the EU. Duncan Weldon.

:25:05.:25:14.

Well, as you saw earlier, Emily was talking to the Foreign Secretary

:25:15.:25:17.

Did you think she'd forgotten to ask about Europe?

:25:18.:25:20.

The Prime Minister would like to restrict benefits to new EU

:25:21.:25:33.

migrants. I know the European Commission today made the point that

:25:34.:25:36.

under current European law it would not illegal. We know that and that

:25:37.:25:40.

is why we said clearly there will need to be treaty change to

:25:41.:25:45.

accommodate our demands. We believe there is a growing concern across

:25:46.:25:49.

Europe about abuse of welfare benefits, await welfare benefits are

:25:50.:25:55.

themselves distorting the labour market. As you know one way to stop

:25:56.:26:02.

this being discriminatory is if UK residents were to go through the

:26:03.:26:06.

same process. Is that something you are considering question mark we

:26:07.:26:10.

have the benefit system designed Amerli to deliver our object is

:26:11.:26:15.

domestically. And this part of the benefit system is specifically

:26:16.:26:21.

designed to create incentives for people on low wages to be in work.

:26:22.:26:26.

So that would not change to bring down migration? We do not want to do

:26:27.:26:31.

anything that would undermine the principal purposes of our domestic

:26:32.:26:35.

benefits system. So how are you going to bring down net migration

:26:36.:26:40.

which is at the root of this, if as you know the practice will not be

:26:41.:26:45.

agreed by other EU member states and you're not going to narrow our

:26:46.:26:50.

benefit system? With respect we do not know that. We know what the

:26:51.:26:56.

commissioner said and we agree with the commission that under current EU

:26:57.:27:00.

law introducing a 4 years waiting time for access to in what benefits

:27:01.:27:03.

would not be legal. We know that. We're asking the EU to change the

:27:04.:27:08.

law to allow us to do this. And we know we're not the only country in

:27:09.:27:14.

the EU that believes there needs to be action taken on access to

:27:15.:27:17.

benefits. Nigel Farage pointed out the living wage and says when it is

:27:18.:27:22.

ten times that of Romania that in its own right is an uncensored. --

:27:23.:27:32.

is an incentive. The average migrant claiming in what benefits are

:27:33.:27:38.

squirming around ?6,000 per family. That is a significant addition to

:27:39.:27:42.

wages. So if the measure got through, you think you would

:27:43.:27:45.

dramatically reduce net migration figures? Yes because we would change

:27:46.:27:49.

the calculus. People travelling across Europe who have got to get up

:27:50.:27:54.

and go to leave the country in Eastern Europe and come and find a

:27:55.:27:59.

job in the UK have certainly got the savvy to be able to understand

:28:00.:28:02.

whether they would be better off in net terms in Germany or Sweden

:28:03.:28:08.

rather than the UK. If we take ?6,000 per year out of their

:28:09.:28:12.

pockets, they will make different calculations about whether what the

:28:13.:28:17.

to seek work. It sounds from what you said and David Cameron

:28:18.:28:22.

suggested, it is about reducing incentives but does not have to be

:28:23.:28:27.

tied to benefits or the welfare system. There are other ways on the

:28:28.:28:34.

table? We have set out our concern, that there is an excess of EU low

:28:35.:28:38.

skilled migration into the UK. We have set out a proposal that we

:28:39.:28:43.

think will tackle that by limiting access to welfare benefits. That is

:28:44.:28:48.

not the only way to tackle that, there are other ways to do that. If

:28:49.:28:53.

someone has a better suggestion... Quantitative controls for example on

:28:54.:28:58.

inward migration would be one way. We believe that would be a more

:28:59.:29:01.

difficult thing for European partners to accept limits on access

:29:02.:29:07.

to benefits. If our European partners come back to us with other

:29:08.:29:12.

ways of reducing migratory flows into the UK, of course we will talk

:29:13.:29:16.

to them because that is what we are trying to achieve. What if they just

:29:17.:29:21.

say no to that? As the Prime Minister said more broadly on the

:29:22.:29:24.

whole package, if they turn a deaf ear to what our reasonable demand of

:29:25.:29:30.

the British people, we will have to think again about how we want to go

:29:31.:29:35.

forward. With the UK relationship with the EU. We expect we will get a

:29:36.:29:40.

fair hearing and that our partners in Europe will want to find a way of

:29:41.:29:45.

delivering a package that meets are legitimate concerns and enables us

:29:46.:29:49.

to go to the British people and say to them, this package represents a

:29:50.:29:56.

reform of the European Union which then allows us to be in a union that

:29:57.:30:01.

works for the UK, that is to our advantage and will make Britain

:30:02.:30:02.

stronger in the future. Here to dissect the political day

:30:03.:30:11.

are Danny Finkelstein, Times Columnist and Conservative peer,

:30:12.:30:16.

the Guardian's Zoe Williams, and Look, the renegotiation plan is on

:30:17.:30:25.

the table. Melanie, you were around when Harold Wilson pulled off this

:30:26.:30:30.

trick in the 1970s. Is the this a repeat of that? People say they

:30:31.:30:34.

didn't renegotiate, he had a fig leaf. I think it is a repeat. I

:30:35.:30:40.

voted no then as I thought we were being sold a pup, and again now.

:30:41.:30:45.

Getting rid of the words ever closer union doesn't alter the fact that

:30:46.:30:49.

union is becoming ever closer in the EU. Stating that we have our own

:30:50.:30:55.

currency, bit of a statement of obvious? It seems risible.

:30:56.:31:01.

Correlation is not causation. Hello? The fact that all these EU migrants

:31:02.:31:06.

here are claiming inwork benefits doesn't mean that's what draws them

:31:07.:31:11.

here. What's drawing hem here is the availability of jobs. A different

:31:12.:31:15.

problem altogether. This is selling us pup. We were promised by Mr

:31:16.:31:21.

Cameron in another era now a renegotiation, a treaty

:31:22.:31:23.

renegotiation which would redefine our relationship with Europe. We

:31:24.:31:29.

would repatriate various laws, give ourselves back self government, in

:31:30.:31:33.

exchange for what I think very many people want, which is a close and

:31:34.:31:38.

harmonious economic union, no more, no less. Danny? Well, I think it is

:31:39.:31:44.

somewhere between a massive renegotiation of the type that I

:31:45.:31:47.

think David Cameron believed was possible at a time when he thought

:31:48.:31:53.

this would coincide with the eurozone. Needing to renegotiate its

:31:54.:31:57.

own new treaties and that hasn't happened, so Britain is having its

:31:58.:32:02.

own renegotiation at a different time, but it is much more than

:32:03.:32:06.

Wilson's. It does involve some fundamental aspects of our

:32:07.:32:10.

relationship. It will be difficult to renegotiate the benefit part. The

:32:11.:32:13.

question whether the single market will be insulated of the chemical

:32:14.:32:17.

weaponses of the eurozone integration, that's raised by the

:32:18.:32:20.

first section of Mr Cameron's letter. For me personally I think

:32:21.:32:25.

ever closer union language was very important and it is important to

:32:26.:32:27.

learn whether we are able to negotiate to remove that. It would

:32:28.:32:33.

be a big signal to me as someone who's been sceptical about the

:32:34.:32:35.

European Union if it was not possible to negotiate that, so I

:32:36.:32:39.

will learn a lot from that. The process of that is partly to learn,

:32:40.:32:45.

what is the European Union's attitude to Britain making

:32:46.:32:49.

middle-sized changes? It will be more changes when the eurozone

:32:50.:32:54.

further changes itself. Zoe, you are pro EU by and large. No Europe, not

:32:55.:33:01.

pro the EU as it is at the moment. Right, do you see this as a

:33:02.:33:07.

fundamental renegotiation? No. Look, the idea that the benefits was a

:33:08.:33:11.

kind of make or break issue, I think they've laid a trap for the EU. They

:33:12.:33:15.

think they have said something really clever and the EU is going to

:33:16.:33:18.

have to come back with something sells, because the initial idea is

:33:19.:33:23.

just an opening salvo and it is not legal, so they have to give them a

:33:24.:33:31.

smorgasbord of of courses. The FT tomorrow is saying that David

:33:32.:33:35.

Cameron isn't wedded to that and is willing to discuss other ways of

:33:36.:33:38.

reducing migration. He knows that it is not going to be on the table and

:33:39.:33:42.

that benefits curtailment is illegal. Danny you are in a

:33:43.:33:49.

different... Different... Does anybody here thinks David Cameron is

:33:50.:33:54.

in doubt about how he will vote in the referendum? What out can see is

:33:55.:33:59.

the contortion obvious a man trying to inhabit out and in at the same

:34:00.:34:03.

time. The way he's talking, the way he says we don't want closer union,

:34:04.:34:08.

we want further apart union. I think the truth is he does want to remain

:34:09.:34:12.

inside the European Union. He strongly wants to do that, but I

:34:13.:34:15.

don't think it's certain he'll be able to achieve what's necessary for

:34:16.:34:20.

him to be able to with conscience say that. I don't think it is not

:34:21.:34:24.

absolutely certain that he will do that. Which way will he vote in the

:34:25.:34:31.

By the way, that's my own position, that these negotiations are

:34:32.:34:34.

extremely important to me. They will make a difference to my outlook. On

:34:35.:34:39.

the whole I think we'd be better off inside the European Union but I am

:34:40.:34:43.

absolutely not saying if we fail to negotiate for example on ever closer

:34:44.:34:47.

union I couldn't see myself voting to leave. I think Mr Cameron has

:34:48.:34:53.

made himself a real problem. He collect went into this referendum,

:34:54.:35:03.

renegotiation lark, he didn't want to be the Prime Minister held

:35:04.:35:10.

hostage by hadures, but he has held himself hostage. He can't get out of

:35:11.:35:15.

the bag Velcro fastened he's put himself in. The rogues of success,

:35:16.:35:21.

and I'm going to vote, in he says. Nobody will believe him, because it

:35:22.:35:25.

is falling apart as we speak. He's a leader of a broad swathe of the

:35:26.:35:30.

right, large parts of which are extremely sceptical about membership

:35:31.:35:33.

of the European Union. It is perfectly ethical for him to take

:35:34.:35:38.

the position where the whole of the right can have a negotiation over..

:35:39.:35:44.

What he is effectively doing is destroying the in-case by presenting

:35:45.:35:48.

it so weakly and in such a compromised way. If you look at the

:35:49.:35:53.

in-case at the moment it is all safer, stronger, more prosperous.

:35:54.:35:57.

Very like the Scottish referendum actually, don't do anything to rock

:35:58.:36:00.

the boat, the status quo is the way forward. That's not going to be

:36:01.:36:08.

convincing. You talk about Harold Wilson and Edward Heath. I think Mr

:36:09.:36:12.

Cameron is relying on the tried and tested weapon of sheer naked terror.

:36:13.:36:16.

If we come out, it will be catastrophic. That would be a lie as

:36:17.:36:22.

well. That may be correct. That's the last consideration. Secondly it

:36:23.:36:26.

is quite pertinent, if it does turn out to be the chase it is extremely

:36:27.:36:30.

risky I would hope the Prime Minister might point that out. But

:36:31.:36:36.

the outs are presenting a vision of a nas aggic England or a

:36:37.:36:41.

pre-muscular entrepreneurial England without the EU. We'll have plenty of

:36:42.:36:46.

time to debate this, don't worry. Thank you very much.

:36:47.:36:48.

Finally tonight - just before we came on air we managed to reach

:36:49.:36:52.

a senior figure in Russian Athletics - Mikhail Butov, the Secretary

:36:53.:36:54.

General of the All-Russia Athletic Federation - to get his response to

:36:55.:36:59.

the extraordinarily damning report into doping in Russian Athletics

:37:00.:37:05.

that was published by Dick Pound yesterday.

:37:06.:37:08.

I began by asking him for his response to the report.

:37:09.:37:16.

It seems this information yesterday after the press conference and of

:37:17.:37:24.

course immediately started to research it. According to IAAF

:37:25.:37:36.

rules, we'll start to prepare an explanation about this document. Of

:37:37.:37:43.

course, we'll send our explanation and our arguments in two days. Are

:37:44.:37:48.

you saying that you accept that the doping has been occurring? Because

:37:49.:37:52.

the Dick Pound report says everybody knew. Are you accepting that it did

:37:53.:37:56.

happen? Or are you saying that it didn't happen? I think 75 periods of

:37:57.:38:02.

this document is not new for everybody, for everybody from

:38:03.:38:09.

athletics, because we already started to investigate many, many

:38:10.:38:14.

processes that presented in this document. The report said that

:38:15.:38:21.

doping was continuing up until June this year. So, well after the

:38:22.:38:25.

investigation had be-Gunther still finding doping. Are you accepting

:38:26.:38:29.

that that was happening in June this year? I can tell you, what has been

:38:30.:38:39.

continue? We know our problem with the doping. Of course, we should

:38:40.:38:46.

change the mentality of many coaches, especially coaches in the

:38:47.:38:50.

regions. We started to do it very hard. We started in April. We

:38:51.:38:55.

organised some educational programme. What's most important, me

:38:56.:39:06.

and the head coach and the internal President, we met with a lot of

:39:07.:39:12.

coaches and athletes. It is very important to direct every athlete

:39:13.:39:19.

with this explanation, with our vision of anti-doping intention in

:39:20.:39:28.

Russia. It is absolutely real steps. But Dick Pound found that your

:39:29.:39:30.

organisation was not co-operative with his investigation. Many people

:39:31.:39:34.

in it were obstructing his investigation. That doesn't imply

:39:35.:39:39.

you've learned the let's sons of being exposed for cheating. I cannot

:39:40.:39:46.

accept it, because firstly nobody from the commission contacted

:39:47.:39:53.

federation during last month. Nobody contacted a the President or myself.

:39:54.:39:57.

Never contacted us. Of course, they contacted the local people in Russia

:39:58.:40:02.

but never the chief of the fed races. If you are kicked out of the

:40:03.:40:09.

Olympics next year, what will your reaction to that be, what will you

:40:10.:40:15.

do? You know, firstly, I'm absolutely sure that we should be

:40:16.:40:23.

against any limitation of athletics participation in the highest level

:40:24.:40:29.

competitions. We have new generation, very successful new

:40:30.:40:36.

athletes, we are absolutely sure that it is absolutely clean

:40:37.:40:43.

athletics. I think if such decision will be done against our team it

:40:44.:40:49.

will be against clean athletes, not against problem athletes. Then

:40:50.:40:55.

please, I am absolutely against isolation of any federation, not

:40:56.:40:58.

only ours, but any federation. You know the problem with doping is not

:40:59.:41:03.

only in Russia. You know the situation in Kenya, in India and

:41:04.:41:07.

other countries. You are saying they dope as well, those other countries?

:41:08.:41:11.

Kenya and India, you are saying they are dopers as well like Russia? The

:41:12.:41:18.

number of doping cases, it is open information. It is the number of

:41:19.:41:23.

cases, there's a lot of cases. It is nothing else. I'm not a specialist

:41:24.:41:29.

in any other country's situation, but what I know well is that the

:41:30.:41:32.

doping problem is not only in Russia. It is also the problem of

:41:33.:41:37.

our sports, unfortunately. We should fight against it and I'm sure that

:41:38.:41:41.

isolation of any federation is not a good way. Thank you very much for

:41:42.:41:45.

talking to us. Much appreciated. Thank you very much.

:41:46.:41:48.

Good evening. Another mild night to come. Fresher conditions in Scotland

:41:49.:42:10.

and Northern Ireland. Ireland. Clear

:42:11.:42:12.

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