Browse content similar to 10/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Britain, Syria and the so-called Islamic State. | :00:08. | :00:09. | |
Are we a nation poised for action, inaction or indecisiveness? | :00:10. | :00:17. | |
I'm in Washington and has been talking to the Foreign Secretary. | :00:18. | :00:27. | |
No strategy, no foreign policy there at all. It is not fair to say we | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
have no strategy but it is absolutely true to say that the | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
speed and decisiveness of Russia's intervention has taken the | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
international community by surprise. Talking of foreign policy - | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
back in Britain, it's Europe day. The commitment in the treaty to an | :00:43. | :00:54. | |
ever closer union is not a commitment that should apply any | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
longer to Britain. We do not believe in it, we do not subscribe to it. We | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
have a different vision for Europe. But is he doing a Wilson, | :01:03. | :01:04. | |
a renegotiation pretending to be We have discussed | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
the very controversial subject of cheese, on which I am satisfied | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
with what has emerged this evening. Good evening from Washington, where | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
the Foreign Secretary, Phillip Hammond, here in the US to hold | :01:14. | :01:31. | |
talks on Syria with the Secretary of State, John Kerry, has confirmed to | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
Newsnight that he'd like to see a House of Commons vote | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
on airstrikes in Syria go ahead. He said he believes airstrikes in | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
Iraq had saved Baghdad from falling, but the mission would need a local | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
ground force of troops if the battle I asked him whether he believed | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
the UK really had a foreign policy at all against Isis, | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
what the airstrikes had achieved, whether Putin was currently seen as | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
our enemy or our ally, and whether Britain monitored how Saudi Arabia | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
used the ?5.4 billion worth We'll hear from the Foreign | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
secretary in an extended interview First, here's our diplomatic editor, | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
Mark Urban. There are pictures of bodies with | :02:09. | :02:21. | |
symptoms consistent of that of nerve agent exposure. Our allies in the | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
Middle East, like Saudi, Emirates and others cannot take military | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
action, why does it fall on us again? For me the biggest danger of | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
escalation is if the world community stands back and do nothing, because | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
I think Assad will draw conclusions to that. The eyes to the | :02:40. | :02:48. | |
The Government tried and failed to get Parliament's backing for strikes | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
against the Assad regime after chemical weapons were used. Before | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
the vote it seemed that as in Libya Britain might even draw a reluctant | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
America into a. After it, the Government struggled to find a | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
policy. We are encouraged people to take up rebellion against their | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
dictators but we then weren't prepared to arm them once they had | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
done so, so Syria's a classic case where we weren't quite prepared to | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
go all the way through with the rhetorical and moral position that | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
we took. In that sense we led people on to the punch. With the failure to | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
secure parliamentary support, the US also stood back from bombing Assad. | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
Britain then had to follow the American lead 15 months ago when | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
operations against a different enemy, the self-declared Islamic | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
State, started. I think it has become very clear that the approach | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
that the coalition has decided to take is not going to have rapid | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
effects. There may be ways in which we can speed it up, but there are | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
also ways in which Isis are desperately trying to slow it down. | :04:09. | :04:17. | |
So they use terror tactics. They use lots of vehicle-borne IEDs, but they | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
also mine all the towns and cities that they operate in, which makes it | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
very hard to move anywhere. America's offensive doesn't look | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
capable of ensuring anything other than military stasis amid a | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
diplomatic vacuum. So when Russia geared up for its intervention | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
against the militants and in favour of the Assad regime, Britain finally | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
had to come to terms with the death of any Arab Spring-type optimism on | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
Syria. I think there was quite a lot of the Arab Spring, we are all going | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
to be on the side of history. Nothing could be worse than these | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
dictators. And what we found for a lot of people for many people are | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
worse than some of these dictators. It is a Hobbsian world there in | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
Syria and Iraq, absolutely ghastly. Russia's intervention has at least | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
been the catalyst for a new diplomatic negotiation. It started | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
last month in Vienna with the main foreign players trying to set the | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
stage for Syrian peace talks. The UK at least was here, but does it know | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
what it is trying to achieve now? In the end you've got to get a | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
transition out of a civil war in Syria. For those parties who are | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
going to be prepared to transition. That's not going to include Isis and | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
other Islamist rejectionists who are going to try to impose their version | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
of the world on others. But it should include the Syrian regime. It | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
should include the Syrian opposition. There is within the | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
Vienna nine points that came out nearly two weeks ago now there is | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
the basis of an agreement. Let's get to work op that track and then the | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
international community can then coalesce around, around our only | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
common interests the defeat of Isis. Syrian civil war has been so violent | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
and complex that British policy makers have struggled to find | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
convincing answers. And all against a backdrop of uncertainty about | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
whether their nation still wants great power status or overseas | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
military entanglements. Well, this afternoon, at the UK | :06:27. | :06:27. | |
amabassador's residence in Washington, I caught up with our | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
Foreign Secretary, Philip Hammond. I asked about UK arms exports to | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
Saudi Arabia and about our But I began by inquiring whether, | :06:34. | :06:35. | |
given his fears the Egypt air crash could have been caused by an Isis | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
bomb, the UK strategy towards Isis I don't think it changes anything | :06:42. | :06:54. | |
notice way we deal with Isis. We've always known they were trying to do | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
us harm. We've seen them executing our citizens, committing all sorts | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
of atrocities in areas they control, so we absolutely know what kind of | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
organisation we are dealing with. We are going after them and we'll | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
continue to go after them. What does it mean? What it does change is the | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
way that we deal with the threat, because that would suggest if this | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
is what has happened that would suggest that there's a threat to | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
civil aviation from Isis, which we have to respond to. So when you say | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
going after them, Michael Fallon said it is morally indefensible not | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
to bombitesis in Syria. Do you agree? What Michael Fallon said was | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
that he has a difficulty with the idea that our allies are taking | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
action on the basis of British reconnaissance flights, that we have | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
to leave somebody else to carry out the strike. He said morally | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
indefensible. It is no secret we would like to be able to extend our | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
strike operations into oi. But we have to get that through the House | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
of Commons. We'll go back to the House of Commons as soon as we are | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
confident that we can win a vote in the House of Commons. This should be | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
done on the basis of a broad consensus in the House of Commons. | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
That has always been the tradition in Britain, when we are sending our | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
Armed Forces into combat, that we do it on the basis of a broad | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
consensus. I think that's deliverable. The changes in the | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
Labour leadership have created some uncertainty about the dynamics in | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
the Commons. We've got to let that settle down. You think that you | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
suggest the bombing has achieved things so far by the UK in Iraq, by | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
the US and allies and Iraq and Syria? Yes. What has it achieved? Is | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
well, first of all the intervention in Iraq, the use of allied air | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
power, coalition air power in Iraq stopped what was a precipitate | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
advance towards Baghdad. If you take your mind back 18 months Baghdad | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
looked as though it was going to fall to the Isil advance. Do you | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
think it would have fallen without that? There was a serious risk. We | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
stopped in its tracks. Since that time Isil have lost 30% of the | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
territory they occupied in Iraq at the peak of their power, so it has | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
had an effect. But we have always said that you can't win a war | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
against an organisation like Isil by air power alone. Eventually there'll | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
have to be a ground force dimension to this combat. A ground force of | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
what kind of troops? Well, it won't be British or American or European | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
troops. It will have to be people from the region ideally. In Iraq it | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
will be Iraqi forces raised and trained in Iraq and a force that's | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
reflective of the population of the areas that Isil currently operates. | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
Who are partners on the ground in Syria? In Syria we have a moderate | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
opposition force. Somewhere between 60,000 and 80,000 fighters on the | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
ground now, primarily fighting the Assad regime. But who are also | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
strongly opposed to Isil. Talk me through that slowly, because if we | :10:10. | :10:17. | |
are attacking Isis and succeeding under the scenario, the beneficiary | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
is Assad. So how are the people that are currently fighting Assad going | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
to be helping us? Well, not the case. As the Assad regime is not in | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
practice fighting Isil. There's a couple of points of contact between | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
the regime and Isil forces, but primarily the regime is being | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
challenged by non-Isil moderate prosecution groups and al-Nusra. | :10:44. | :10:50. | |
Isil in their stronghold has quite carefully kept itself disengaged | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
from the main fight ing with the regime, and we though that the | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
regime has done deals with Isil. They trade with Isil. You concede, | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
though, that if Isis were weakened Assad would be stronger? If Isis | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
were weakened... I don't necessarily accept that, no. There's a three-way | :11:09. | :11:20. | |
fight going on here. We've got the moderate opposition and Isil. Isil | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
would like to control all of the territory of Syria but effectively | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
it has abandoned the part of the country where Isil is. Is it is | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
taking on the opposition forces that are primarily non-Isil forces. That | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
three-way fight, the third part of that fight is currently being bombed | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
by Russia. By Putin. The moderate opposition, the Russian intervention | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
claimed to be in the name of the fight against Isil has been largely | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
directed against the moderate opposition, which tells us that the | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
real intelligence of Russia's intervention is to shore up the | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
Assad regime. I have no doubt that Russia shares our ambition to | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
destroy Isil in the longer term, but we have a difference of view about | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
how best to do that. The Russians think you do it by shoring up the | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
Assad regime and going off Isil. We don't think you can settle the | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
conflict between Assad and the opposition without agreeing a date | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
and a modality for Assad's departure. So as things stand, do | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
you look at President Putin and say, you are our ally in this fight? Not | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
at the moment, but Putin could be our ally if he decides to work with | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
us in order to achieve a political transition. We've got two different | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
struggles here. We've got the struggle against Isil, which has to | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
be a military struggle. There isn't a deal you can cut with Isil. There | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
isn't a negotiation to be had with them. They can't be part of the | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
political future of Syria. And then we've got a civil war going on. | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
Everybody is agreed that the solution to that has to be a | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
political one, not a military one. Everybody's agreed that it would be | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
a mistake to dismantle the regime and create a vacuum, as happened in | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
Iraq. What we need to do is remove those with the most blood on their | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
hands at the top of the asset regime, bring in representatives of | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
the moderate opposition and form a transitional Government in Syria | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
that can take the country forward. Isn't the truth that we have been | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
outflanked quite rawly and bluntly by President Putin here? And when | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
you look at our strategy in Syria, in Iraq, against Isis, that Ramadi's | :13:42. | :13:49. | |
fallen, Palmyra has fallen, Mosul is in Isil's hands. We've got 700 | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
British citizens going to fight for Isis and a wave of hundreds of | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
thousands of migrants leaving the country, with very no strategy? We | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
have no foreign policy there at all. It is not true to say we have no | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
strategy but it is absolutely true to say that the speed and | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
decisiveness of Russia's intervention has taken the | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
international community by surprise. We are in the process of responding | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
to that. Russia is both carrying out military action and joining us at | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
the table. We'll be meeting against this weekend in Vienna with 19 | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
countries to try and move forward on the political track. The Russians | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
say they want a political solution. They say they accept the need for a | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
political solution. Actually... With Assad. With Assad. And that's the | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
big point of difference between us and the Russians and Iranians. I | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
want to look more broadly now at what the Foreign Office does. David | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
Cameron said in 2012 those emphasis you've got, turn them into showrooms | :14:52. | :14:58. | |
for cars, department stores for our fashion. That's what's happened | :14:59. | :14:59. | |
isn't it? Trade is an important part of the | :15:00. | :15:10. | |
overseas missions. It is now embedded in the mainstream of our | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
diplomacy around the world. In Washington had senior executives | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
from a dozen US companies investing in the UK. To encourage them to | :15:21. | :15:27. | |
invest more is my goal. The mission in Saudi Arabia, the weapons sold, | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
would you like that figure to be higher? We would always like to do | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
more business, more British exports and jobs. And in this case high end | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
engineering jobs protected and created. By our diplomacy abroad. | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
Does it matter what Saudi Arabia does with the weaponry, if it is | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
used against civilians in Yemen or against protesters at home? It does | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
matter and we have one of the strip is export licensing regimes in the | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
world. We only export weapons systems were all the criteria of our | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
export licensing system are met. So you know those British weapons are | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
not being used in Yemen, you know that? I know some of them are being | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
used in Yemen, it does not fall foul of the export licensing criteria. It | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
would be hypocritical to think we could have a large defence industry | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
exporting weapons systems and they never get used. So you do not have a | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
veto in where the weapons are used or how? What matters is they are | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
used legally in compliance with international humanitarian law, and | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
we monitor that carefully. Saudi Arabia is currently accused of war | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
crimes in Yemen. The UK signed up to the arms control treaty. So if those | :16:50. | :17:02. | |
weapons are being used in Yemen, as war crimes, then that carries | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
criminal sanctions for the government? You made a huge leap of | :17:06. | :17:12. | |
logic there. Which part of the do not agree with M those weapons are | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
being used, some of them, in Yemen. The important thing is they're being | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
used legally in an international armed conflict. There have been | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
accusations of breaches of international humanitarian law, we | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
regularly intervened with the Saudis to encourage them to be transparent | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
with us. Have you intervened here with their use in Yemen? Yes, I was | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
in Saudi Arabia a couple of weeks ago and we discussed this issue. | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
What did they tell you? The Saudis deny they have been any breaches of | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
international Unitarian law. That denial alone is not enough, we need | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
proper investigations. We need to work with the Saudis to establish | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
that international humanitarian law has been complied with. And we have | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
an export licence system that responds if we find that it has not. | :18:07. | :18:14. | |
We then find we cannot licence additional shipments of weapons. We | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
all understand there is pragmatism involved in foreign policy, but do | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
you worry that the ethical dimension, the moral dimension, what | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
you came into the job to do, is being lost? I do not. I do draw a | :18:29. | :18:37. | |
distinction between appropriate approach simply preaching of people, | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
and engagement approach. If you want to be able to influence the way | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
people behave you have to be engaged with them, you have to have some | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
leveraged in your discussions with them. Countries like Saudi Arabia | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
where we have strong collaboration, we work together in many areas and | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
not just trade but security as well, we collaborate on security with | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
Saudi Arabia in a way which saves British lives. But that gives us an | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
ability to discuss with them more difficult issues as well and to get | :19:11. | :19:12. | |
results. Philip Hammond there on Britain's | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
wider strategy for dealing with Isis and on whether our foreign policy | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
could still be said to have Later in the programme - as the | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
Prime Minister lays out his plans to restrict EU migration by restricting | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
benefits for four years to those coming in, we ask the Foreign | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
secretary if that's even legal, and if he believes the measure could be | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
accepted by the EU member states. And tomorrow | :19:33. | :19:41. | |
we'll be hot on the trail of Donald Trump, the Republican Party | :19:42. | :19:43. | |
candidate who now says this election This is a strange election, | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
isn't it? You stab somebody and the | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
newspapers say you didn't do it. And you say, "Yes, I did. | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
I did it." A Prime Minister writes quite a | :19:53. | :20:06. | |
few letters - or has them written. But none will be as important | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
for David Cameron Six pages to Donald Tusk, | :20:10. | :20:11. | |
President of the European Council. It had more than you might have | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
expected, but far less than the radical | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
programme sceptics had hoped. First, Economic Governance - | :20:22. | :20:23. | |
all about euro and non-euro members, The second heading is | :20:24. | :20:31. | |
called Competitiveness. This one is what some specialists | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
call retail politics. Here, for example, the euro members | :20:35. | :20:48. | |
should not be able to stitch up Competitiveness mainly concerns | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
cutting red tape Britain opting out of | :20:55. | :21:06. | |
"ever closer union". And this also proposal | :21:07. | :21:15. | |
that if a group of national parliaments | :21:16. | :21:17. | |
don't like an EU proposal, they This is the one that has | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
the well-publicised four-year rule - that migrants can't claim in-work | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
benefits in their first four years. A mix of some familiar British | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
themes, plus some extras. And what about tax credits? | :21:29. | :21:55. | |
Today that her minister set out his demands for EU reform in a letter to | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
the European Council. We proposed the people coming to Britain from | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
the EU are to live here and contribute for four years before | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
qualifying for in what benefits were social housing. And we should end | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
the practice of sending child benefit overseas. The UK is | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
re-negotiated arrangements with Europe and has done it before. In | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
the 1970s and 1980s under Margaret Thatcher. She secured a much | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
heralded rebate to date with millions of pounds annually. | :22:26. | :22:35. | |
Times change. This building is no longer Conservative headquarters. | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
Ironically it is now Europe house. And this renegotiation is not about | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
the money, the Prime Minister says the change will save half ?1 billion | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
per year, a number disputed by others, but it is not about the | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
saving at making the UK are less attractive place for people to move | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
from Europe to work here. Fundamentally this is about | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
immigration. For much of the public immigration is the key issue. But | :23:02. | :23:08. | |
the Prime Minister has retreated from any fundamental change in the | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
nature of free movement. Blunt instruments like quotas and caps on | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
numbers are out and now the approach is to restrict benefits. That means | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
discriminating against EU citizens in the welfare state and will be | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
tricky to get other leaders to agree to that. This is the toughest part | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
of his negotiation proposals. It will be tough to reach agreement but | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
this is the one area he really needs to get something. Immigration is | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
such a hot topic in this country. I think there will be opposition from | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
East European states and Poland in particular, but are they willing to | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
risk the UK leaving the EU on this issue? If a deal on restricting | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
benefits cannot be found at EU level another option is restricting access | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
to in work benefits for everyone, British or European. No | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
discrimination there. Stop anyone getting anything out until they have | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
paid in. But reforming British social security system is seems a | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
radical step. It is a sledgehammer to crack a nut, it would be a | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
complex undertaking to re-engineer the already troubled universal | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
credit system so it is a contributory system. It seems the | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
disproportionate response to a fairly small problem after all. Even | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
if a deal can be done with Europe around the UK to discriminate | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
against recent EU migrants when it comes to benefits, or if we offer | :24:31. | :24:37. | |
our own welfare system to make it contributory, there was reason to | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
believe that might not even bring down immigration from Europe. One | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
centrepiece of George Osborne 's economic policy is the national | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
living wage. The leave campaign are keen to point out that that will | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
mean that even with benefit changes, any EU migrants would still be | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
better off in 2020. The proposal is not likely to bring down | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
immigration, or be enough to satisfy those who want more fundamental | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
change in our relationship with the EU. Duncan Weldon. | :25:05. | :25:14. | |
Well, as you saw earlier, Emily was talking to the Foreign Secretary | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
Did you think she'd forgotten to ask about Europe? | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
The Prime Minister would like to restrict benefits to new EU | :25:21. | :25:33. | |
migrants. I know the European Commission today made the point that | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
under current European law it would not illegal. We know that and that | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
is why we said clearly there will need to be treaty change to | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
accommodate our demands. We believe there is a growing concern across | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
Europe about abuse of welfare benefits, await welfare benefits are | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
themselves distorting the labour market. As you know one way to stop | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
this being discriminatory is if UK residents were to go through the | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
same process. Is that something you are considering question mark we | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
have the benefit system designed Amerli to deliver our object is | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
domestically. And this part of the benefit system is specifically | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
designed to create incentives for people on low wages to be in work. | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
So that would not change to bring down migration? We do not want to do | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
anything that would undermine the principal purposes of our domestic | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
benefits system. So how are you going to bring down net migration | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
which is at the root of this, if as you know the practice will not be | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
agreed by other EU member states and you're not going to narrow our | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
benefit system? With respect we do not know that. We know what the | :26:51. | :26:56. | |
commissioner said and we agree with the commission that under current EU | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
law introducing a 4 years waiting time for access to in what benefits | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
would not be legal. We know that. We're asking the EU to change the | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
law to allow us to do this. And we know we're not the only country in | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
the EU that believes there needs to be action taken on access to | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
benefits. Nigel Farage pointed out the living wage and says when it is | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
ten times that of Romania that in its own right is an uncensored. -- | :27:23. | :27:32. | |
is an incentive. The average migrant claiming in what benefits are | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
squirming around ?6,000 per family. That is a significant addition to | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
wages. So if the measure got through, you think you would | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
dramatically reduce net migration figures? Yes because we would change | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
the calculus. People travelling across Europe who have got to get up | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
and go to leave the country in Eastern Europe and come and find a | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
job in the UK have certainly got the savvy to be able to understand | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
whether they would be better off in net terms in Germany or Sweden | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
rather than the UK. If we take ?6,000 per year out of their | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
pockets, they will make different calculations about whether what the | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
to seek work. It sounds from what you said and David Cameron | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
suggested, it is about reducing incentives but does not have to be | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
tied to benefits or the welfare system. There are other ways on the | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
table? We have set out our concern, that there is an excess of EU low | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
skilled migration into the UK. We have set out a proposal that we | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
think will tackle that by limiting access to welfare benefits. That is | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
not the only way to tackle that, there are other ways to do that. If | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
someone has a better suggestion... Quantitative controls for example on | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
inward migration would be one way. We believe that would be a more | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
difficult thing for European partners to accept limits on access | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
to benefits. If our European partners come back to us with other | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
ways of reducing migratory flows into the UK, of course we will talk | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
to them because that is what we are trying to achieve. What if they just | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
say no to that? As the Prime Minister said more broadly on the | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
whole package, if they turn a deaf ear to what our reasonable demand of | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
the British people, we will have to think again about how we want to go | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
forward. With the UK relationship with the EU. We expect we will get a | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
fair hearing and that our partners in Europe will want to find a way of | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
delivering a package that meets are legitimate concerns and enables us | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
to go to the British people and say to them, this package represents a | :29:50. | :29:56. | |
reform of the European Union which then allows us to be in a union that | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
works for the UK, that is to our advantage and will make Britain | :30:02. | :30:02. | |
stronger in the future. Here to dissect the political day | :30:03. | :30:11. | |
are Danny Finkelstein, Times Columnist and Conservative peer, | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
the Guardian's Zoe Williams, and Look, the renegotiation plan is on | :30:17. | :30:25. | |
the table. Melanie, you were around when Harold Wilson pulled off this | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
trick in the 1970s. Is the this a repeat of that? People say they | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
didn't renegotiate, he had a fig leaf. I think it is a repeat. I | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
voted no then as I thought we were being sold a pup, and again now. | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
Getting rid of the words ever closer union doesn't alter the fact that | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
union is becoming ever closer in the EU. Stating that we have our own | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
currency, bit of a statement of obvious? It seems risible. | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
Correlation is not causation. Hello? The fact that all these EU migrants | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
here are claiming inwork benefits doesn't mean that's what draws them | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
here. What's drawing hem here is the availability of jobs. A different | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
problem altogether. This is selling us pup. We were promised by Mr | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
Cameron in another era now a renegotiation, a treaty | :31:22. | :31:23. | |
renegotiation which would redefine our relationship with Europe. We | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
would repatriate various laws, give ourselves back self government, in | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
exchange for what I think very many people want, which is a close and | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
harmonious economic union, no more, no less. Danny? Well, I think it is | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
somewhere between a massive renegotiation of the type that I | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
think David Cameron believed was possible at a time when he thought | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
this would coincide with the eurozone. Needing to renegotiate its | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
own new treaties and that hasn't happened, so Britain is having its | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
own renegotiation at a different time, but it is much more than | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
Wilson's. It does involve some fundamental aspects of our | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
relationship. It will be difficult to renegotiate the benefit part. The | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
question whether the single market will be insulated of the chemical | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
weaponses of the eurozone integration, that's raised by the | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
first section of Mr Cameron's letter. For me personally I think | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
ever closer union language was very important and it is important to | :32:26. | :32:27. | |
learn whether we are able to negotiate to remove that. It would | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
be a big signal to me as someone who's been sceptical about the | :32:34. | :32:35. | |
European Union if it was not possible to negotiate that, so I | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
will learn a lot from that. The process of that is partly to learn, | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
what is the European Union's attitude to Britain making | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
middle-sized changes? It will be more changes when the eurozone | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
further changes itself. Zoe, you are pro EU by and large. No Europe, not | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
pro the EU as it is at the moment. Right, do you see this as a | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
fundamental renegotiation? No. Look, the idea that the benefits was a | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
kind of make or break issue, I think they've laid a trap for the EU. They | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
think they have said something really clever and the EU is going to | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
have to come back with something sells, because the initial idea is | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
just an opening salvo and it is not legal, so they have to give them a | :33:24. | :33:31. | |
smorgasbord of of courses. The FT tomorrow is saying that David | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
Cameron isn't wedded to that and is willing to discuss other ways of | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
reducing migration. He knows that it is not going to be on the table and | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
that benefits curtailment is illegal. Danny you are in a | :33:43. | :33:49. | |
different... Different... Does anybody here thinks David Cameron is | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
in doubt about how he will vote in the referendum? What out can see is | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
the contortion obvious a man trying to inhabit out and in at the same | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
time. The way he's talking, the way he says we don't want closer union, | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
we want further apart union. I think the truth is he does want to remain | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
inside the European Union. He strongly wants to do that, but I | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
don't think it's certain he'll be able to achieve what's necessary for | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
him to be able to with conscience say that. I don't think it is not | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
absolutely certain that he will do that. Which way will he vote in the | :34:25. | :34:31. | |
By the way, that's my own position, that these negotiations are | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
extremely important to me. They will make a difference to my outlook. On | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
the whole I think we'd be better off inside the European Union but I am | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
absolutely not saying if we fail to negotiate for example on ever closer | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
union I couldn't see myself voting to leave. I think Mr Cameron has | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
made himself a real problem. He collect went into this referendum, | :34:54. | :35:03. | |
renegotiation lark, he didn't want to be the Prime Minister held | :35:04. | :35:10. | |
hostage by hadures, but he has held himself hostage. He can't get out of | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
the bag Velcro fastened he's put himself in. The rogues of success, | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
and I'm going to vote, in he says. Nobody will believe him, because it | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
is falling apart as we speak. He's a leader of a broad swathe of the | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
right, large parts of which are extremely sceptical about membership | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
of the European Union. It is perfectly ethical for him to take | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
the position where the whole of the right can have a negotiation over.. | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
What he is effectively doing is destroying the in-case by presenting | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
it so weakly and in such a compromised way. If you look at the | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
in-case at the moment it is all safer, stronger, more prosperous. | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
Very like the Scottish referendum actually, don't do anything to rock | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
the boat, the status quo is the way forward. That's not going to be | :36:01. | :36:08. | |
convincing. You talk about Harold Wilson and Edward Heath. I think Mr | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
Cameron is relying on the tried and tested weapon of sheer naked terror. | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
If we come out, it will be catastrophic. That would be a lie as | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
well. That may be correct. That's the last consideration. Secondly it | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
is quite pertinent, if it does turn out to be the chase it is extremely | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
risky I would hope the Prime Minister might point that out. But | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
the outs are presenting a vision of a nas aggic England or a | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
pre-muscular entrepreneurial England without the EU. We'll have plenty of | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
time to debate this, don't worry. Thank you very much. | :36:47. | :36:48. | |
Finally tonight - just before we came on air we managed to reach | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
a senior figure in Russian Athletics - Mikhail Butov, the Secretary | :36:53. | :36:54. | |
General of the All-Russia Athletic Federation - to get his response to | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
the extraordinarily damning report into doping in Russian Athletics | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
that was published by Dick Pound yesterday. | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
I began by asking him for his response to the report. | :37:09. | :37:16. | |
It seems this information yesterday after the press conference and of | :37:17. | :37:24. | |
course immediately started to research it. According to IAAF | :37:25. | :37:36. | |
rules, we'll start to prepare an explanation about this document. Of | :37:37. | :37:43. | |
course, we'll send our explanation and our arguments in two days. Are | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
you saying that you accept that the doping has been occurring? Because | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
the Dick Pound report says everybody knew. Are you accepting that it did | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
happen? Or are you saying that it didn't happen? I think 75 periods of | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
this document is not new for everybody, for everybody from | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
athletics, because we already started to investigate many, many | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
processes that presented in this document. The report said that | :38:15. | :38:21. | |
doping was continuing up until June this year. So, well after the | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
investigation had be-Gunther still finding doping. Are you accepting | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
that that was happening in June this year? I can tell you, what has been | :38:30. | :38:39. | |
continue? We know our problem with the doping. Of course, we should | :38:40. | :38:46. | |
change the mentality of many coaches, especially coaches in the | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
regions. We started to do it very hard. We started in April. We | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
organised some educational programme. What's most important, me | :38:56. | :39:06. | |
and the head coach and the internal President, we met with a lot of | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
coaches and athletes. It is very important to direct every athlete | :39:13. | :39:19. | |
with this explanation, with our vision of anti-doping intention in | :39:20. | :39:28. | |
Russia. It is absolutely real steps. But Dick Pound found that your | :39:29. | :39:30. | |
organisation was not co-operative with his investigation. Many people | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
in it were obstructing his investigation. That doesn't imply | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
you've learned the let's sons of being exposed for cheating. I cannot | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
accept it, because firstly nobody from the commission contacted | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
federation during last month. Nobody contacted a the President or myself. | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
Never contacted us. Of course, they contacted the local people in Russia | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
but never the chief of the fed races. If you are kicked out of the | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
Olympics next year, what will your reaction to that be, what will you | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
do? You know, firstly, I'm absolutely sure that we should be | :40:16. | :40:23. | |
against any limitation of athletics participation in the highest level | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
competitions. We have new generation, very successful new | :40:30. | :40:36. | |
athletes, we are absolutely sure that it is absolutely clean | :40:37. | :40:43. | |
athletics. I think if such decision will be done against our team it | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
will be against clean athletes, not against problem athletes. Then | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
please, I am absolutely against isolation of any federation, not | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
only ours, but any federation. You know the problem with doping is not | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
only in Russia. You know the situation in Kenya, in India and | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
other countries. You are saying they dope as well, those other countries? | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
Kenya and India, you are saying they are dopers as well like Russia? The | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
number of doping cases, it is open information. It is the number of | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
cases, there's a lot of cases. It is nothing else. I'm not a specialist | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
in any other country's situation, but what I know well is that the | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
doping problem is not only in Russia. It is also the problem of | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
our sports, unfortunately. We should fight against it and I'm sure that | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
isolation of any federation is not a good way. Thank you very much for | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
talking to us. Much appreciated. Thank you very much. | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
Good evening. Another mild night to come. Fresher conditions in Scotland | :41:49. | :42:10. | |
and Northern Ireland. Ireland. Clear | :42:11. | :42:12. |