09/11/2015 Newsnight


09/11/2015

The Russian athletics scandal. The PM starts the Europe negotiation. The Indian PM visits. A rival to the Nobel Prize gets the glitz treatment.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 09/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

You wouldn't have thought you could hear a report about drug cheats or

:00:00.:00:07.

corruption in international sports and still be shocked.

:00:08.:00:10.

But here's one, on Russia and athletics.

:00:11.:00:21.

Have happened without everybody knowing about it or consenting to

:00:22.:00:26.

it, so it's worse than we thought. Layers of the Russian sporting

:00:27.:00:28.

establishment, the Government there, and international athletics

:00:29.:00:32.

and anti-doping authorities. We'll ask this former Olympic

:00:33.:00:36.

athlete how, why and with what consequence has

:00:37.:00:38.

the sport been sullied. Also tonight,

:00:39.:00:43.

Europe has always been a tough issue Are you enjoying the Common Market?

:00:44.:00:55.

Come and join us in this protest march to Downing Street. Get Britain

:00:56.:00:57.

out! Things may have changed since 1974,

:00:58.:01:00.

but David Cameron is set to officially list

:01:01.:01:03.

his renegotiation demands tomorrow. Can he win enough to break the

:01:04.:01:04.

Euro-sceptic case for getting out? Ukip's Susan Evans is

:01:05.:01:07.

here to suggest not. To these scientists the continuous

:01:08.:01:18.

journey for understanding all that is...

:01:19.:01:19.

Step aside Nobels, science gets the Oscars treatment.

:01:20.:01:21.

Will the Breakthrough Prize make the laboratory seem sexier,

:01:22.:01:23.

It was a German television documentary that

:01:24.:01:43.

It prompted a follow-up inquiry into doping in athletics,

:01:44.:01:49.

And that has proceeded to a more dramatic outcome than anyone

:01:50.:01:56.

You can download the inquiry report and read the charge sheet.

:01:57.:02:00.

"the acceptance of cheating at all levels is widespread and

:02:01.:02:05.

"Russian athletes were often willing participants.

:02:06.:02:10.

However, there are documented cases where athletes who did not want to

:02:11.:02:13.

participate in 'the program' were informed they

:02:14.:02:16.

would not be considered as part of the Federation's national team".

:02:17.:02:23.

"The reported presence of the security services (the FSB)

:02:24.:02:25.

And "the practice of doping in athletics in Russia remains very

:02:26.:02:32.

much current, even following the German documentary".

:02:33.:02:34.

"The Olympic Games in London were, in a sense, sabotaged by the

:02:35.:02:39.

admission of athletes who should have not been competing" And be

:02:40.:02:49.

clear, the most explosive chapter of the report has not been published -

:02:50.:02:52.

the one on the International Association

:02:53.:02:54.

Material has been given to Interpol for

:02:55.:02:57.

a proper criminal investigation into charges of corruption and bribery.

:02:58.:03:02.

The journalist Mark Daly has been investigating doping in sport

:03:03.:03:06.

The prediction was that it would be one of athletics' darkest days,

:03:07.:03:25.

publication of the World Anti-Doping Agency independent commission's

:03:26.:03:28.

findings into doping at the heart of athletics. The reality it was so

:03:29.:03:36.

much worse than that. For 2016 our recommendation is that the Russian

:03:37.:03:41.

Federation be suspended. Dick Pound's commission was launched

:03:42.:03:44.

after allegations were made in a German doubtry last year that the

:03:45.:03:47.

Russian athletics federation was riddled with corruption and was

:03:48.:03:51.

involved in covering up positive dope terrorists by its athletes.

:03:52.:03:54.

Today the documentary was proved correct. Russia had been involved in

:03:55.:04:02.

state-sponsored doping, perhaps even reminiscent of the old Soviet days,

:04:03.:04:07.

corruptly covering up positive drug terrorists and destroying more than

:04:08.:04:12.

1,400 test samples. Russia has been the Wild West of dopings if illtated

:04:13.:04:17.

by officials who acted more like gangsters. Now they could be banned

:04:18.:04:21.

from the next Olympics. It is not just Russia that is in the frame.

:04:22.:04:25.

There's a second part a this story that's missing from this report. And

:04:26.:04:32.

that's because the former head of athletics governing body, the IAAF,

:04:33.:04:35.

Lamine Diack, and several others, are subject to a criminal

:04:36.:04:39.

investigation. But what the report does say is that it found corruption

:04:40.:04:44.

and bribery at the very highest level of the IAAF. So, what does

:04:45.:04:51.

that mean for its newly crowned President, Seb Coe. . Is Seb Coe the

:04:52.:05:00.

right man to lead the IAAF out of this mess? I believe that Seb Coe is

:05:01.:05:07.

somebody who can grasp this and be transform arable enough to bring

:05:08.:05:10.

about change in athletics. I hope so, because his sport is at risk if

:05:11.:05:15.

he doesn't. I think the difficulty that Seb's got is he was there

:05:16.:05:20.

throughout the period, he was a Vice-President under Lamine Diack

:05:21.:05:24.

and he has long-standing links to the IAAF. He that to get on the

:05:25.:05:28.

front foot and create a separation between his era and that of Lamine

:05:29.:05:32.

Diack. He will find that difficult to do. Just three months ago when he

:05:33.:05:38.

took the presidency Lord Coe was fulsome in his praise for Lamine

:05:39.:05:42.

Diack, calling him the spiritual leader of the IAA. If. Those

:05:43.:05:46.

comments must haunt him. He said yesterday he wasn't in favour of

:05:47.:05:51.

banning Russia. Today he's been forced to recalibrate his comments

:05:52.:05:55.

and is now seeking approval from his fellow IAAF members to consider

:05:56.:06:01.

sanctions. Dick Pound, well he's been heralded as the man who might

:06:02.:06:07.

save athletics. And that's a role that Seb Coe was hoping to fill

:06:08.:06:20.

himself. This will not with a swift road. So can Lord Coe, who famously

:06:21.:06:26.

delivered the Olympics to London, deliver the rehabilitation of his

:06:27.:06:29.

sport's wounded reputation? It is not the first time that Seb's been

:06:30.:06:33.

quick to defend someone who is under investigation. We saw it in the case

:06:34.:06:38.

of Alberto Salazar. We are waiting for the report into those

:06:39.:06:42.

allegations. Yet he was quick to come out and say that Salazar would

:06:43.:06:46.

be cleared of those claims. Likewise with the Russians he's said they

:06:47.:06:51.

would probably refer to rehabilitate them from within and within 24 hours

:06:52.:06:55.

Dick Pound has said they should be banned. He would have been wise er

:06:56.:07:02.

to have kept his powder dry. Dick Pound publicly thanked the

:07:03.:07:05.

journalist who broke the story, Hajo Seppelt. The only thanks he says

:07:06.:07:11.

he's received so far was a threat to sue him. We can talk to that German

:07:12.:07:18.

journalist who got all this going for ARD, the German broadcaster,

:07:19.:07:23.

Hajo Seppelt. He joins us from Geneva. Congratulations on scoop of

:07:24.:07:31.

the decade. Tell us, all the talk of suology you presumably has gone out

:07:32.:07:35.

of the window. What are they saying to you now, the IAAF? Nothing so

:07:36.:07:42.

far. I have no contact with IAAF officials. No-one contacted us since

:07:43.:07:46.

the beginning of the year. We tried several times to get interviews, Seb

:07:47.:07:52.

Coe is the first time we tried to get, in Monaco after our first

:07:53.:07:56.

documentary was aired in December 2014. Refused to talk to us. I was

:07:57.:08:01.

waiting for five hours. He promised me to come but he didn't show up.

:08:02.:08:07.

Later on we sent him several e-mails, official requests by ARD

:08:08.:08:11.

German television to get interviews in regards to our second documentary

:08:12.:08:17.

about the suspicion of widespread blood doping in athletics. But

:08:18.:08:21.

refused to comment. In Beijing at the World Championships it was

:08:22.:08:25.

exactly the same. He refused to talk to me and he gave an interview to

:08:26.:08:31.

ARD German television but not to me. He was insisting on the interviewer

:08:32.:08:35.

has to be something else. Sorry, the he in this case is who? Excuse me?

:08:36.:08:41.

When you say he refused to give you an interview, you are talking about

:08:42.:08:47.

who, Seb Coe? Yes, I talk about Seb Coe all the time, yes. Yes, and have

:08:48.:08:52.

you been surprised by anything that Dick Pound has uncovered that you

:08:53.:08:56.

hadn't uncovered? Maybe you are surprised that it has been going on

:08:57.:09:01.

since you made your documentary about it? Sorry, I didn't understand

:09:02.:09:05.

the questions. The line is very bad, can you repeat. I'm sorry. Have you

:09:06.:09:10.

been surprised by anything they found, Dick Pound found? I was

:09:11.:09:16.

surprised, the Russians continued since your documentary, it is going

:09:17.:09:23.

on now. I tell you to be very honest I'm not surprised about the Russian

:09:24.:09:26.

reaction. It is always the same. When we aired the first documentary

:09:27.:09:30.

the Russians said it was a pack of lies what we did. They told me I'm

:09:31.:09:36.

an ignorant journalist, that I have no clue about anything. I'm working

:09:37.:09:42.

on doping stories as a doping research investigative journalist

:09:43.:09:44.

for 20 years and the Russians claimed I don't know the rules or

:09:45.:09:50.

how to work on this. To be honest always in sport people react in a

:09:51.:09:55.

harsh way. Maybe the Russians a little more aggressive but in

:09:56.:09:59.

general you have always to consider that in doping in sports, mostly the

:10:00.:10:07.

mess I thinkers are the sports, mostly the mess I thinkers are the

:10:08.:10:11.

people who are -- maybe the messengers will be blamed by the

:10:12.:10:14.

federation and not the people responsible for the doping problem.

:10:15.:10:19.

Hajo Seppelt, your point haw now been taken and reported the world

:10:20.:10:21.

over. Thank you very much indeed. Now, there were two layers

:10:22.:10:25.

of charges today. First are the ones against at the

:10:26.:10:27.

Russians, as if there weren't enough complicated relationship issues with

:10:28.:10:30.

the Russians at the moment. The second, though, are the ones

:10:31.:10:32.

against the IAAF - the international I'm joined by the European

:10:33.:10:47.

Championships 10,000 metres medallist, Jo Pavey, from her home

:10:48.:10:53.

in Devon. She lost out to athletics subsequently disqualified for

:10:54.:10:57.

doping, including missing out on a medal in 2007. With in the studio is

:10:58.:11:03.

Mihir Bose. Good evening to you both. How aware of you at the time

:11:04.:11:09.

were you that the Russians were doped? If I'm honest, I did have my

:11:10.:11:17.

suspicions about certain athletes, but I think this report has been

:11:18.:11:21.

shocking to everyone in the sport. You have your suspicions about

:11:22.:11:25.

certain athletes, but the fact that it has uncovered that a nation was

:11:26.:11:30.

involved in systemically doping their athletes. You thought the days

:11:31.:11:33.

where that could happen in sport were behind us. It is very

:11:34.:11:39.

devastating and shocking. Times were I finished lying flat on my back on

:11:40.:11:43.

the track giving it everybody I've got and I've missed those moments on

:11:44.:11:47.

the podium. I can never get those back. It is really disappointing.

:11:48.:11:54.

What now, Jo, sorry to interrupt you. What now do you think the

:11:55.:11:58.

effect of Russian cheating was on your career? I think there has been

:11:59.:12:06.

Russian athletes at times that have finished ahead of me. It will be

:12:07.:12:11.

hard to mention certain names, but one of them has been banned in

:12:12.:12:15.

certain competitions and she's an athlete that in the past has kept me

:12:16.:12:21.

out of medal positions. The fact it seems that it was systemic in that

:12:22.:12:25.

country is devastating. It is likely I might be awarded a bronze medal

:12:26.:12:30.

retrospectively from 2007 World Championships. I finished fourth

:12:31.:12:35.

that day lying on the track flat on my back, I gave it everything.

:12:36.:12:39.

Rather than it being a moment of disappointment it should have been a

:12:40.:12:42.

moment where I was on the podium having won a medal for my country.

:12:43.:12:46.

Can I never get that moment back. It is destroying not just my career but

:12:47.:12:52.

other athletes' career. Mihir Bose, let's start with the Seb Coe

:12:53.:12:56.

question. Who's a popular guy, he ran London 2012. Do you think he's

:12:57.:13:01.

the guy to clean up athletics? He's been an insider in the IAAF hasn't

:13:02.:13:08.

he? Seb is a trusted guy. He got the games and ran it very well. He was

:13:09.:13:14.

eight years Vice-President and he comes in as Lamine Diack's

:13:15.:13:17.

successor. If you notice what the head of the Russian Federation has

:13:18.:13:20.

said is that any suspension will have to go to the IAAF council.

:13:21.:13:26.

There again you go back if you like into the old council, which is still

:13:27.:13:30.

existing, deciding on suspending a federation member. So how does Coe

:13:31.:13:35.

step outside and become the man who cleans everything up? That's a

:13:36.:13:37.

difficult thing to do. I'm not saying he can't do it buts

:13:38.:13:43.

difficult. We'll be saying Sepp Blatter can't clean up Fifa and

:13:44.:13:50.

suddenly our guy is in charge of an institution that's been systemically

:13:51.:13:53.

corrupt. Where does this one stand, do you think? This takes the gold

:13:54.:13:57.

medal. First of all Fifa's corruption is if you like business

:13:58.:14:01.

corruption. Very bad, no question about it, but the banks could have

:14:02.:14:05.

done it in other walks of life. People taking money, envelopes

:14:06.:14:09.

passing because you want to bid for the World Cup. This is about sport.

:14:10.:14:15.

If you watch Messi score a goal you don't want to believe he's passed a

:14:16.:14:19.

five er to the goalkeeper. Similarly in athletics, you don't want to

:14:20.:14:22.

believe that the one who won the gold medal has done it through

:14:23.:14:25.

cheating. That's one aspect. And the second aspect is in the last 15

:14:26.:14:30.

years we've believed or been led to believe with the existence of WADA,

:14:31.:14:36.

laboratories like Moscow and so on, that we are coming to grips with

:14:37.:14:43.

this, but the system doesn't work. There's a flaw that can't be

:14:44.:14:48.

corrected. Jo, do you trust Seb Coe as the man who clean up athletics?

:14:49.:14:54.

It is your sport. I think Seb Coe is very passionate about sport. I think

:14:55.:14:57.

he would admit himself that it is going to be a much harder job than

:14:58.:15:03.

even he first realised. Realised. He said he's been shocked and dismayed

:15:04.:15:07.

by the report and has got a harder job to do than he first thought. But

:15:08.:15:16.

his ideas of an independent Anti-Doping Agency, all athletes

:15:17.:15:19.

worldwide need to go through the same rigorous testing procedures and

:15:20.:15:22.

there should be nowhere for anyone to hide. Even when there's talk of

:15:23.:15:28.

considering banning Russia from the Olympic Games, if that's what is

:15:29.:15:31.

necessary to make sure that there's no cheats on the start line, tough

:15:32.:15:37.

measures are going to be carried out. Clean athletes could suffer in

:15:38.:15:43.

that respect but if that's what's necessary at this stage.

:15:44.:15:49.

If Russia isn't banned... It will raise enormous questions about the

:15:50.:15:57.

Olympics. It will raise enormous questions about the International

:15:58.:16:00.

Olympic Committee. It doesn't run the individual sport. It provides a

:16:01.:16:04.

festival of sport over two weeks. We will ask the question: How powerful

:16:05.:16:08.

is it? Remember, this is sports connected with politics. There is as

:16:09.:16:13.

you mention, Mr Putin who sees sport and if you like a weapon of Russian

:16:14.:16:17.

foreign policy. Is he going to accept a ban? You've been involved

:16:18.:16:23.

in a lot of sports, covering them for many years, why is sport, why

:16:24.:16:29.

international sporting organisations so prone to corruption of one form

:16:30.:16:33.

or northerning? Because they're badly run. Because the people who

:16:34.:16:36.

run them are not very good. The best people don't come in to run sport.

:16:37.:16:40.

They go elsewhere. The best people are actually the advisors. They make

:16:41.:16:44.

a lot of money out of sport, the lawyers and accountants surrounding

:16:45.:16:47.

them. The best sportsmen don't come in. They've got their honours and

:16:48.:16:52.

they go away. That is the basic problem with sport. Sport has become

:16:53.:16:56.

business. As it has become business it hasn't acquired any ideas of how

:16:57.:17:00.

accountable it should be, how transparent it should be. It's run

:17:01.:17:05.

by very, very incompetent, not always corrupt, very incompetent

:17:06.:17:07.

people who can be easily corrupted. Thank you both very much indoed.

:17:08.:17:12.

Tomorrow David Cameron will write to the president of the

:17:13.:17:15.

European Council, the former Polish prime minister, Donald Tusk, to

:17:16.:17:17.

spell out how he wants the EU, and British membership of it, reformed.

:17:18.:17:20.

We've got a pretty good idea of a lot of what's

:17:21.:17:23.

on the shopping list, but this will be the official version.

:17:24.:17:25.

To prepare, the PM was speaking at the CBI conference today,

:17:26.:17:28.

saying he was deadly serious about reform, in a speech that was briefly

:17:29.:17:31.

First though, here's our diplomatic correspondent, Mark Urban.

:17:32.:17:47.

Come on guys. If you sit down now, can you ask me a question rather

:17:48.:17:53.

than making fools of yourself by just standing up and protesting.

:17:54.:17:57.

Even as David Cameron tried to make his case this morning, evidence that

:17:58.:18:01.

those who want out will only get more vocal. Even I can remember that

:18:02.:18:07.

script without any notes. This audience was on side, at least as

:18:08.:18:11.

far as wanting to hear the PM's shopping list. The things I want

:18:12.:18:16.

fixed, whether it's making a more competitive Europe, whether it's

:18:17.:18:19.

making sure we're out of ever closer union, whether it's making sure

:18:20.:18:23.

there's proper fairness of those in the eurozone and those out of the

:18:24.:18:28.

eurozone or whether it's reducing the pressures that we face through

:18:29.:18:32.

immigration, these are big and important changes. I think it's

:18:33.:18:33.

vital that we achieve them. The EU concept of ever closer union

:18:34.:18:50.

is part of its founding Rome treaty language, long cherished by

:18:51.:18:52.

federalists and offensive to sceptics. Number Ten want the phrase

:18:53.:18:58.

dropped. Other countries will try to limit such linguistic back sliding

:18:59.:19:03.

to Britain alone. If you look at what's happened electorally in

:19:04.:19:07.

places like Greece and Portugal, the political elites may be trying to

:19:08.:19:12.

take the European Union in One Direction, but the people going to

:19:13.:19:15.

the ballot boxes are saying something different. The Portuguese

:19:16.:19:20.

people made it clear at the recent elections they do not want to see

:19:21.:19:24.

ever closer union. That's something very much not on the table for the

:19:25.:19:34.

British people. Election of a more Euro-sceptic government in Poland is

:19:35.:19:37.

just one sign that Downing Street optimists see that the UK may find

:19:38.:19:44.

supporters for its ideas, both at non-eurozone countries shouldn't be

:19:45.:19:48.

put at a competitive disadvantage or outvoted. Accommodations will be

:19:49.:20:02.

urged by those who really don't want brexitment Ireland regards the

:20:03.:20:05.

prospect of their leaving the European Union as a major strategic

:20:06.:20:10.

risk. In truth the full risks are unknown. As much would depend on the

:20:11.:20:15.

process and detail of what the process would actually look like.

:20:16.:20:23.

However, it's an outcome that the Irish government does not wish to

:20:24.:20:33.

see materialise in the first place. That kind of support will also help

:20:34.:20:37.

with Mr Cameron's suggestion that the single market should be extended

:20:38.:20:44.

to some areas, like energy, where it still operates very imperfectly. But

:20:45.:20:48.

while the CBI might like that, is it really a winner on the doorstep? The

:20:49.:20:53.

things that resonate on the doorstep and in the boardroom might be

:20:54.:20:56.

different. I think the Prime Minister is absolutely right to look

:20:57.:21:00.

at a whole range of issues that will make a real difference to the

:21:01.:21:02.

British people and the British economy. So what about that key

:21:03.:21:12.

doorstep issue - migration? The ongoing crisis keeps it in the

:21:13.:21:18.

public eye. But internal EU migration poses Mr Cameron with his

:21:19.:21:23.

toughest challenge. He talked before about stopping benefits, but that

:21:24.:21:27.

won't be easy. In all the other areas he can get something. This is

:21:28.:21:31.

going to be really hard. The thing he probably can't get is his

:21:32.:21:35.

requirement that EU migrants shouldn't be able to claim in-work

:21:36.:21:39.

benefits like tax credits until they've lived in the UK for four

:21:40.:21:45.

years. That would be incompatible with the treaty's provision on

:21:46.:21:48.

nondiscrimination on nationals from another country. It's hard to see

:21:49.:21:52.

how he could get that. In the months ahead, it will be important for the

:21:53.:21:56.

Prime Minister and his allies to maintain a sense of jeopardy, that

:21:57.:22:01.

they are really trying to get the best deal and that it may not work

:22:02.:22:07.

out. But those close to him insist that the jeopardy is very real and

:22:08.:22:12.

that on some of these key issues, he may have to say that he hasn't got

:22:13.:22:18.

exactly what he set out to achieve. Long-term economic security...

:22:19.:22:23.

Today's skirmish was hardly the first and it certainly won't be the

:22:24.:22:26.

last. At some time in the coming months, David Cameron will have to

:22:27.:22:30.

pick his moment to say whether the deal he's got is really worth voting

:22:31.:22:32.

for. To discuss another crunch week

:22:33.:22:36.

for Britain's upcoming referendum on the EU, we're joined from Poland

:22:37.:22:38.

by Radek Shikorski, Poland's former foreign minister, who has just been

:22:39.:22:41.

appointed as a senior fellow at Harvard University,

:22:42.:22:44.

and from Edinburgh, UKIP's deputy Radek Shikorski, do you think it's

:22:45.:22:58.

possible for David Cameron to win the sorts of things we suspect he's

:22:59.:23:06.

asking for? First of all, I'd rather be talking about British leadership

:23:07.:23:09.

in Europe and it's there for the taking, for example, in the area of

:23:10.:23:14.

defence, of foreign policy, where Europe needs it and it would give

:23:15.:23:21.

Britain a great deal of influence. But yes, this is very cleverly

:23:22.:23:27.

crafted, because on the issues that have been mentioned, David Cameron

:23:28.:23:33.

will find allies in Europe. Energy union in particular in Poland. But

:23:34.:23:38.

also, completing the single market, a British idea in the area of

:23:39.:23:45.

digital trade, of services. Here, he is entitled to speak for millions of

:23:46.:23:52.

Europeans and to make the EU itself a better organism. I expect this to

:23:53.:24:00.

chime well with the kinds of governments that he needs to support

:24:01.:24:05.

his agenda. Aren't you overspeaking here? Sorry to interrupt. You're

:24:06.:24:10.

going too far here. You're meant to say, oh, it's going to be very

:24:11.:24:13.

difficult. There will be enormous fight over these. His main objective

:24:14.:24:20.

is to look as though he's having a big fight with you. Well, there will

:24:21.:24:24.

be problems with the benefits business. Remember, we in Poland do

:24:25.:24:31.

not encourage our citizens to travel for work to Britain. We would rather

:24:32.:24:39.

see our Poles coming back to Poland. But any Polish government will not

:24:40.:24:44.

agree to anything that smacks of discrimination or picking on

:24:45.:24:48.

particular nationalities. Remember that countries that are outside the

:24:49.:24:54.

EU, but are inside the European Economic Area, Norway for example,

:24:55.:24:58.

also has had to open its labour market. There are 100,000 or so

:24:59.:25:05.

Poles working in Norway. To avoid that, Britain would have to leave

:25:06.:25:10.

not just the EU, but also the European Economic Area. Then you are

:25:11.:25:14.

on a very long journey into the unknown. Let me just ask, sorry let

:25:15.:25:25.

me put that point to Suzanne Evans. Firstly, do you agree that David

:25:26.:25:29.

Cameron can win most of what he's going to ask them for? I know that's

:25:30.:25:33.

not enough for you, can he win that? I don't think he can actually. I

:25:34.:25:37.

think what David Cameron is doing is making a jolly good show. He's

:25:38.:25:41.

trying to show that he is committed to reform, that he can win reform.

:25:42.:25:45.

The fact is in order to get what most people want in Britain, which

:25:46.:25:49.

is sovereignty back to the Westminster Parliament, to get

:25:50.:25:52.

control back of our democracy, control of our economy, get control

:25:53.:25:56.

back of our borders, that involves treaty change. David Cameron clearly

:25:57.:25:59.

isn't even asking for that. What he's asking for, the shopping list,

:26:00.:26:04.

as far as we know, is a simple set of questions. He's, despite the

:26:05.:26:08.

economic crisis in the eurozone, despite the immigration crisis, when

:26:09.:26:13.

actually arguably, he could be making significant demands, he's set

:26:14.:26:17.

his sites very, very low. He should be setting his sights at a much

:26:18.:26:21.

higher target. But he's setting his sights at a low target and he seems

:26:22.:26:25.

to be expecting to miss it. The target on benefits and trying to

:26:26.:26:30.

restrict the tax subsidies, tax credits to migration through the

:26:31.:26:33.

benefits system that, for you, is not big enough, he needs control of

:26:34.:26:38.

the border in full? This isn't a referendum about the benefits

:26:39.:26:41.

system. It is a referendum about our membership of the European Union. Of

:26:42.:26:49.

course, Ukip and both the out campaigns we have are making a

:26:50.:26:53.

strong case that we can survive outside the European Union, but we

:26:54.:26:59.

can thrive. We will make that case until referendum day. Let me ask

:27:00.:27:05.

Radek Shikorski whether if Britain was to leave, vote to leave, WWEed'

:27:06.:27:12.

have to negotiate -- we'd have to negotiate with access to the

:27:13.:27:17.

European market, and the terms, how easy would it be for Britain to

:27:18.:27:21.

negotiate trade deals with partners with whom the EU has trade deals?

:27:22.:27:28.

Well, let me just also pick a point on what Suzanne has said. You do

:27:29.:27:30.

have control over your borders. You're not part of the Schengen

:27:31.:27:38.

area. In fact, I was taking the EuroStar from Paris to London and

:27:39.:27:43.

you had British border control in Paris. Of course, we still have to

:27:44.:27:47.

have the free movement of people. And controls in Calais. Let's not

:27:48.:27:52.

get bogged down. We have a bit of control but not full control. How

:27:53.:27:58.

easy will it be for us to negotiate trade deals and the like, if we

:27:59.:28:05.

leave? Well, this would be the mother of all divorce cases.

:28:06.:28:09.

Divorces like this are always messy and very expensive. If you were to

:28:10.:28:16.

leave, you would need to conclude new trade agreements with over 100

:28:17.:28:20.

countries. I suspect you wouldn't get as good a deal on your own as we

:28:21.:28:28.

get as the EU, when the commission negotiates on our behalf,

:28:29.:28:31.

representing us, the largest economy on earth. Also remember, that for

:28:32.:28:37.

the continent, trade with the UK is about 10% of our trade. Whereas for

:28:38.:28:44.

you, the UK, your trade with the continent is 50% of your trade, no

:28:45.:28:50.

prizes are given as to who has the advantage in such negotiation.

:28:51.:28:55.

Suzanne Evans, you say we have to negotiate treaty change for you to

:28:56.:28:58.

be satisfied. We will have to negotiate treaty change if we leave,

:28:59.:29:03.

aren't we? We will have to negotiate a free trade deal. What people

:29:04.:29:06.

always forget, they talk about the EU as being the only negotiating

:29:07.:29:10.

factor here. Of course, at the moment, we have a seat on the World

:29:11.:29:13.

Trade Organisation that we are not allowed to sit on. Once we leave the

:29:14.:29:17.

European Union we take back our seat on the World Trade Organisation.

:29:18.:29:20.

Then we have that powerful body behind us in order to secure free

:29:21.:29:27.

trade deals. To pick up on what was said, the European Union needs us in

:29:28.:29:30.

terms of trade far more than we actually need them. We have a 50

:29:31.:29:34.

billion trade deficit with the European Union, which means that we

:29:35.:29:38.

actually buy a lot more from them and they could not do without our

:29:39.:29:41.

trade. That's the simple matter of fact. If you talk to somebody, I

:29:42.:29:47.

remember a few years ago, Sir Dig by Jones, the former president of the

:29:48.:29:51.

CBI said such is the European Union's need of Britain that he

:29:52.:29:55.

reckoned we would be negotiating a free trade deal with the EU upon

:29:56.:30:00.

brexit very quickly, within a matter of hours. There's a long way between

:30:01.:30:07.

the two of you on that. We'd better drill down to that later. Thanks

:30:08.:30:08.

both very much. The Indian Prime Minister, Narendra

:30:09.:30:11.

Modi, visits the UK this week. And it means that

:30:12.:30:14.

for the third time in about three weeks, there will be a controversial

:30:15.:30:16.

foreign leader here, generating Modi is Hindu nationalist,

:30:17.:30:19.

who was Chief Ninister in Gujarat state back in 2002, when communal

:30:20.:30:23.

rioting there caused the death Our reporter, Secunder Kermani, has

:30:24.:30:25.

been talking to one of the British Prime Minister Modi is coming to

:30:26.:30:43.

London... Narendra Modi was boycotted by Britain for a decade.

:30:44.:30:46.

Now he's India's Prime Minister and this week will get a massive

:30:47.:30:50.

reception at Wembley Stadium and an overnight stay with David Cameron at

:30:51.:30:54.

Chequers. That's angered human rights activists, who projected this

:30:55.:30:58.

image on the Parliament last night. Night. They accuse him of being a

:30:59.:31:05.

Hindu fundamentalist who allowed deadly communal riots to unfold in

:31:06.:31:10.

2002 while in charge of Gujarat, something he denies. Hindu mobs

:31:11.:31:16.

burned their neighbours alive and raped women, while the police and

:31:17.:31:20.

authorities were accused of standing back and at times encouraging it.

:31:21.:31:28.

The violence began when a trainful of Hindu pilgrims was set alight.

:31:29.:31:37.

Many Muslims were killed. There was a big gang of people surrounding us.

:31:38.:31:46.

We were pleading for our lives, showing our passports, saying we

:31:47.:31:50.

were from the UK, but no, they didn't want anything to do with it.

:31:51.:31:55.

They said to us, take your trousers down, we want the to see if you've

:31:56.:32:00.

been circumcised, if you are a Muslim. If you are, we'll kill you.

:32:01.:32:07.

I got stabbed in the leg. Hit in the head. God knows how I'm still here

:32:08.:32:12.

today. Imran was on his first trip to India, with his uncle Syed and

:32:13.:32:20.

their friends. Driving from the Taj Mahal into Gujarat they were

:32:21.:32:23.

attacked by a mob. This is what was left of their car. Despite his

:32:24.:32:28.

injuries Imran survived. The family only later discovered how the others

:32:29.:32:34.

were killed. Killed. They had lost consciousness. They had been taken

:32:35.:32:42.

to a nearby factory and they had been tortured and they had been

:32:43.:32:51.

brutalised and murdered. Narendra Modi, a self declared Hindu

:32:52.:32:56.

nationalist, was cheer Minister of Gujarat at the time. No case against

:32:57.:33:01.

Modi has been successful so far. He strongly denies any wrongdoing,

:33:02.:33:05.

though he once said he regretted Muslim suffering as he would a puppy

:33:06.:33:10.

being run over by a car. His critics say he should not be getting this

:33:11.:33:13.

kind of welcome from Britain. They've behaved in a very shameless

:33:14.:33:21.

way, because they are no longer putting human rights and what

:33:22.:33:28.

happened in 2002 on the agenda. That's quite disgusting. The English

:33:29.:33:38.

Government has shown a lack of sensitivity towards family and this

:33:39.:33:45.

isn't acceptable. After the murders, the families travelled to India to

:33:46.:33:48.

try and gather evidence along with the Foreign Office. But they still

:33:49.:33:53.

haven't got justice. Six men accused of the murders were acquit canned

:33:54.:33:57.

earlier this year after witnesses turned hostile. Human rights groups

:33:58.:34:02.

say many are intimidated. With Modi due to arrive in Britain, the family

:34:03.:34:07.

wants an apology, justice and for the remains of their relatives to at

:34:08.:34:13.

last be returned. The saddest thing is 13 years on we still, this

:34:14.:34:19.

remains in India of the family, haven't been able to get hold of and

:34:20.:34:27.

put closure. Having an apology would be a start. And not to just push it

:34:28.:34:33.

under the carpet. Until 2012, Britain cut all ties with Modi

:34:34.:34:38.

because of what happened in Gujarat. America even denied him a visa, but

:34:39.:34:43.

that's changed as he has risen in power in India. Here politicians

:34:44.:34:49.

like Priti Patel have championed him as someone Britain should engage

:34:50.:34:53.

with. The significant ran date that Narendra Modi has is as a politician

:34:54.:35:00.

inspiring to see... The family say beganment shouldn't mean a welcome

:35:01.:35:04.

with open arms. They want to do business with India, that's up to

:35:05.:35:13.

them, but at least honour the dignity of the families, the

:35:14.:35:17.

victims. What meme would you like to send out to the British Government?

:35:18.:35:23.

They are actually not justlying what happened in Gujarat but they are

:35:24.:35:29.

actually perverting British values. When Modi came to power last year

:35:30.:35:33.

there were fears of more communal violence. In September a Muslim man

:35:34.:35:37.

was lunched after wrongly being accused of eating beef, considered

:35:38.:35:43.

sacred by Hindus. Modi has been accused of not condemning it

:35:44.:35:47.

strongly enough. But does the Government here care about that when

:35:48.:35:51.

lucrative contracts are at stake? If we don't honour the memories, if we

:35:52.:35:56.

don't speak for the truth, then history can repeat itself. Does it

:35:57.:36:03.

make you feel like the Government is, cares about you, effectively?

:36:04.:36:04.

No. Simple as that. Imran Dawood ending that report

:36:05.:36:09.

from Secunder Kermani. The geneticist John Hardy, from UCL,

:36:10.:36:13.

finds himself a couple He was awarded something less

:36:14.:36:16.

well known but considerably more It's called a breakthrough prize,

:36:17.:36:21.

funded by a Russian billionaire with a bit of help from Facebook

:36:22.:36:28.

founder Mark Zuckerberg and others. Now, awards were made to several

:36:29.:36:35.

scientists, and the awards event appeared to be modelled on

:36:36.:36:37.

the Oscars rather than the Nobels. Here is John Hardy and others

:36:38.:36:40.

having collected their prizes. The whole thing appears designed

:36:41.:36:46.

to bring glamour to science, to It has to be said that celeb label

:36:47.:36:51.

is not one that fits Professor Hardy very well, who is generally seen

:36:52.:36:58.

as more substance than style. And I'm happy to say he joins

:36:59.:37:02.

us now from California. Good evening to you. How did you

:37:03.:37:14.

find the ceremony? Not the sort of thing you are accustomed to, I would

:37:15.:37:18.

imagine? No, it was great actually. Of course it was woks. I really

:37:19.:37:22.

appreciated it. Maybe I could get used to it. We do think of

:37:23.:37:27.

scientists as not worrying about how they dress or look, worrying about

:37:28.:37:31.

the substance, not style. Do you want science to have more glitz, for

:37:32.:37:37.

goodness sake? I think it is good that scientists are held in more

:37:38.:37:40.

esteem and so on. That's a very good thing. Not me personally of course.

:37:41.:37:46.

Anyone who knows me knows that I'm not famous for my dress sense, so I

:37:47.:37:51.

think there's a good thing for science, science itself to be made

:37:52.:37:56.

more glamorous perhaps. For sure I do. Tell us a little about what it

:37:57.:38:02.

is you won the prize for. It is a series of things to do with

:38:03.:38:08.

dementias really. We found in the early 1990s in Alzheimer's disease

:38:09.:38:17.

mute aces in the ameloid gene, which is deposited in Alzheimer's disease.

:38:18.:38:22.

That led us to suggest that amyloid is the essence of the start of the

:38:23.:38:26.

disease. Later we found other genetic causes which fitted with the

:38:27.:38:30.

process started from amyloid and going through other things to cell

:38:31.:38:34.

death and then to dementia and so on. So it allowed us to map out a

:38:35.:38:39.

pathway to disease. What we of course hope is that this pathway to

:38:40.:38:43.

disease will be something we can intervene in and stop the disease

:38:44.:38:47.

process. That's of course the purpose of the work. It is great to

:38:48.:38:54.

have it acknowledged, obviously. You won about ?2 million, but you have

:38:55.:38:58.

to pay tax on that. How much do you get out of the end of that? I don't

:38:59.:39:04.

know exactly, but something well over, considerably over ?1 million.

:39:05.:39:08.

And of course it is an amazing, of course that's amazing. Of course it

:39:09.:39:11.

is. What are you going to do with the money? Is it one where you are

:39:12.:39:15.

obliged to give it back to science, or are you allowed to buy a two

:39:16.:39:21.

bedroom flat in Camden with it? That's right, I am allowed to buy a

:39:22.:39:27.

two bedroom flat in Camden. We are trying to build a new Institute of

:39:28.:39:32.

Neurology building and an institute of dementia there. I'm going try to

:39:33.:39:37.

push that fundraising for that new building along, but yes I am going

:39:38.:39:40.

to build a little house in London. That's exactly what I will do. It

:39:41.:39:44.

doesn't go very far if you want to by a house in London. This kind of

:39:45.:39:49.

thing isn't a substitute for serious science funding presumably. No, it

:39:50.:39:54.

isn't, but I think it is very important that the public realise

:39:55.:40:00.

what science is about. Indirectly I think that helps science funding. I

:40:01.:40:06.

think it is very important to scientists that we explain what we

:40:07.:40:10.

are doing. That's a virtuous circle. If we explain what we are doing to

:40:11.:40:13.

the public, the public put pressure on the politicians and science

:40:14.:40:17.

funding increases. So if we can get into a virtuous circle for science

:40:18.:40:22.

funding, that's a great outcome. And you've worked in the UK, you have

:40:23.:40:26.

worked in the United States. I wonder if three sentence which is of

:40:27.:40:31.

those do you think is now a better environment for scientists to

:40:32.:40:38.

discover things in. You know, America had consistently good

:40:39.:40:41.

funding, which hasn't been the case in the UK. It goes up and down with

:40:42.:40:46.

political will. One thing that we have in the UK has they don't have

:40:47.:40:51.

in the US, which is immensely powerful and for example the

:40:52.:40:55.

Institute of Neurology is very important, we have the NHS and the

:40:56.:41:02.

single unitary NHS behind us, which makes clinical research so much

:41:03.:41:06.

better in the UK than it is in the US. So some things are easier in the

:41:07.:41:12.

US but much research is better in the UK. John, well done. Thank you

:41:13.:41:14.

very much for joining us. It's a pleasure. Thank you very much.

:41:15.:41:18.

If you had a bad weekend, spare a thought for the customers

:41:19.:41:22.

at the IHOP restaurant in Meridian, Mississipi, on Saturday

:41:23.:41:24.

night where a 50-foot-wide sink hole gobbled up the carpark.

:41:25.:41:29.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS