06/11/2015 Newsnight


06/11/2015

The latest from Moscow and Cairo on the Sinai plane crash - was it a bomb? And Radio 1's Mistajam explores the Grime music scene. With Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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No official confirmation on that Russian plane yet, but today

:00:00.:00:07.

the world went from asking "was it downed by a bomb" to answering "yes,

:00:08.:00:11.

A week after the crash of the Metrojet flight, senior

:00:12.:00:20.

French aviation officials close to the investigation are ruling out

:00:21.:00:22.

We are seeing more and more signs that

:00:23.:00:28.

the accident may have been caused by an explosion on board the aircraft.

:00:29.:00:35.

And Russia has done an about turn, now stopping all

:00:36.:00:37.

We'll get the latest from Russia and Egypt and ask

:00:38.:00:44.

whether aviation is now in for a new period of heightened alert.

:00:45.:00:49.

And on Artsnight, the artistic director of the Donmar Warehouse,

:00:50.:00:53.

Josie Rourke, looks at the role of the hero in drama and talks to

:00:54.:00:56.

Tom Hiddleston about his latest role as country singer Hank Williams.

:00:57.:01:02.

Hank has a rebelliousness that I don't have.

:01:03.:01:06.

I am too English and too well brought up, probably.

:01:07.:01:09.

Do you think you will acquire that with age?

:01:10.:01:11.

I don't know that I will ever walk out of an interview.

:01:12.:01:15.

It is now looking highly probable that the Metrojet Flight

:01:16.:01:34.

The voice recorders are said to point to that.

:01:35.:01:40.

Officials from France close to the investigation say it was not

:01:41.:01:43.

The Americans have come round to the British view of the intelligence

:01:44.:01:53.

And the first sign that the possibility of a bomb had been

:01:54.:01:57.

elevated to a probability was the news from Russia that the country

:01:58.:02:00.

Having criticised Britain for acting prematurely in stopping

:02:01.:02:07.

flights to Sharm el-Sheikh, Russia abruptly announced that it was

:02:08.:02:10.

Gabriel Gatehouse is in St Petersburg for us, where

:02:11.:02:13.

Gabriel, to what extent what the Russians interpreting this sudden

:02:14.:02:24.

move to stop all flights to Egypt, to what extent with the interpreting

:02:25.:02:28.

that is a sign that Russia believes this was a bomb? Well, it is quite

:02:29.:02:37.

an about turn. Yesterday, chastising the British for jumping the gun and

:02:38.:02:42.

now going much further than anyone in stopping all flights to Egypt.

:02:43.:02:47.

Officially, the Kremlin still says this does not mean it was either was

:02:48.:02:51.

not a bomb, they are going on a fact -based basis and following the

:02:52.:02:56.

investigation and the Russian press still not speculating about whether

:02:57.:03:01.

this means this was a bomb. They talk about how Russian tour

:03:02.:03:03.

operators will go bust but if you look at the sequence of events

:03:04.:03:08.

today, you see that, this morning, a bit of wreckage from the crash was

:03:09.:03:12.

flown into Moscow which was to be examined for traces of explosives

:03:13.:03:16.

and later this evening we see the head of the FSB suggesting to that

:03:17.:03:22.

Putin that he stops flights and he readily agrees to that and the whole

:03:23.:03:27.

thing moves on so when you look at how fast this has moved, it is

:03:28.:03:31.

difficult to come to any other conclusion. Reports tonight say that

:03:32.:03:36.

the British and Americans shared some intelligence with the Russians

:03:37.:03:38.

before this decision was made public, but either way it seems hard

:03:39.:03:44.

to come to any other conclusion and on the streets here in Russia when

:03:45.:03:47.

you speak to people, most people seem to come to that conclusion

:03:48.:03:52.

anyway. Thank you. We will hear more from Gabriel later on.

:03:53.:03:55.

Well, there is a news conference due at 3pm tomorrow afternoon in Cairo.

:03:56.:03:58.

The chairman of the Egyptian-led probe into the plane crash will be

:03:59.:04:01.

speaking along with the civil aviation minister.

:04:02.:04:03.

We'll see what comes out of that, but if a bomb has killed 224 people

:04:04.:04:08.

on a plane, it will undoubtedly lead to renewed anxieties about aviation

:04:09.:04:13.

security and the issue of smaller airports with less robust

:04:14.:04:16.

There have been many attempts to bring planes down in recent years.

:04:17.:04:23.

The shoe bomber, the liquid explosive bomb plot,

:04:24.:04:25.

But the last flights actually to be brought down in

:04:26.:04:33.

a comparable way were two domestic Russian flights back in 2004.

:04:34.:04:36.

David Grossman has been looking at the investigation into this

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flight and the implications that may be emerging from it.

:04:39.:04:46.

I ran the water, the theory of a bomb on the plane has gained ground.

:04:47.:04:54.

There is a possibility that there is a bomb. On board. From being

:04:55.:05:02.

critical of David Cameron's response, the Russian government

:05:03.:05:05.

joined the British in cancelling flights and preparing to bring its

:05:06.:05:09.

national song. Tonight, senior aviation officials close to the

:05:10.:05:12.

investigation have told the BBC that they have ruled out the possibility

:05:13.:05:16.

that there was any fault or technical issue with the plane that

:05:17.:05:20.

led to the crash. The full investigation will focus on every

:05:21.:05:26.

aspect of the accident and will also be looking for a possible structural

:05:27.:05:32.

failure not caused by a bomb but we are seeing more and more signs that

:05:33.:05:39.

the accident may have been caused by an explosion on board the aircraft.

:05:40.:05:43.

The investigation will focus on three main areas. Firstly, sifting

:05:44.:05:50.

through as far as possible and reconstructing the wreckage, looking

:05:51.:05:53.

at how the fabric of the plane has been burned and misshapen, finding

:05:54.:05:57.

the centre of an explosion. Secondly, adding that the flight

:05:58.:06:01.

data and recorders. According to the Russian news agency, the latter have

:06:02.:06:07.

been found with uncharacteristic signs that suggests an emergency

:06:08.:06:10.

situation occurred on board unexpectedly and it took the crew by

:06:11.:06:14.

surprise. The third source will be detailed examinations of the bodies

:06:15.:06:20.

of the 224 people who died. The condition and position of the

:06:21.:06:25.

victims can offer significant clues. And this process is not quick. This

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is the wreckage from MH17, destroyed over Ukraine in July 2014, being

:06:33.:06:36.

pieced back together. The initial assessment, determining the cause as

:06:37.:06:41.

an external exposure, to cover one month. The final report, blaming a

:06:42.:06:45.

rocket launcher fired by Russian backed rebels, is only published

:06:46.:06:52.

last month, 15 months afterwards. The Russian investigators will have

:06:53.:06:54.

some experience in this regard, the Russians lost two domestic passenger

:06:55.:07:05.

flights in 2004 from Moscow to Sochi and both of those were taken down by

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female suicide warmers and when they did analysis they discovered the

:07:10.:07:14.

classic signature evidence of an internal explosion and you had metal

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curling outwards, the blast effect, and the residue of high explosives.

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In this case, the Egyptians, Russians and the Irish air crash

:07:29.:07:32.

investigators on site will be looking for all of those tell-tale

:07:33.:07:37.

signs. If this is the first plane destroyed by a bomb for over one

:07:38.:07:41.

decade, it will most certainly lead to significant changes to the regime

:07:42.:07:47.

governing airport security. We have seen the rules change in the past.

:07:48.:07:50.

For example, on liquids, in response to known threats. It can cause an

:07:51.:07:57.

airline, for example, to be placed on the European no-fly list, on a

:07:58.:08:02.

list of airlines that are not allowed to operate into the EU. And,

:08:03.:08:10.

well, who knows what this change will bring? Perhaps it will change

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security as well and it will mean that countries have to explain and

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prove that they are capable of conducting proper security measures

:08:24.:08:27.

at all of their airports before any flights can be conducted from these

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countries into Europe. The Egyptian government is increasingly isolated

:08:35.:08:36.

tonight in its refusal to acknowledge that the likelihood is a

:08:37.:08:42.

bomb that caused this disaster. The invitations for the tourist industry

:08:43.:08:46.

and for global aviation security are set to be far-reaching. We can pick

:08:47.:08:52.

up on some of those issues. Here with me now are Andrew Brookes

:08:53.:08:54.

from RUSI, and from Cairo, Middle If I can start with you, the

:08:55.:09:07.

indications for Egypt, there are so many. I think that is a very bad

:09:08.:09:15.

place to begin for the Egyptians. The local population within the

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Sinai area lives from the tourism industry tremendously and across the

:09:20.:09:24.

country, the tourism industry will be hit very badly, simply by what

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has happened so far. Just the very suggestion that security is not what

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it should be banned that an attack would have taken place, just that

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suggestion being flooded before all of these close to confirmation

:09:38.:09:43.

suggestions has already hit the tourism industry and people who work

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in that industry are being hurt tremendously already. It has been

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very strange that this has occurred whilst President Sese has been here

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in London, just an awful week for him. And for diplomacy between Egypt

:09:56.:10:04.

and the UK and other countries? I think the curry was particularly

:10:05.:10:10.

annoyed that London declared that we think there was a high mobility or a

:10:11.:10:16.

more likely than not possibility that this was a bomb. -- Cairo.

:10:17.:10:21.

Having said that, I do not think that Cairo can stand by that any

:10:22.:10:25.

longer on every PC that so many other countries, including Russia,

:10:26.:10:28.

have also taken steps that are even stronger than the British response.

:10:29.:10:33.

Indeed, it is not a particularly good week for London - Cairo

:10:34.:10:40.

diplomacy or current's diplomacy with the international community

:10:41.:10:42.

when it comes to promoting Egypt as a safe place for tourism and one

:10:43.:10:46.

that the international committee should send tourists to. Andrew. How

:10:47.:10:54.

important is this for aviation and the industry? It is seminal, since

:10:55.:11:03.

September the 11th, we have focused on people getting on board and being

:11:04.:11:07.

suicide bombers and we have spent a lot of time, ground site, screening

:11:08.:11:13.

and checking, over checking, double-checking, to prevent that

:11:14.:11:16.

happening and we are also reverting to those pre-9/11 days and somebody

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put a bomb on board and walked away, like Lockerbie. You must protect the

:11:23.:11:31.

airfield, that is airside. That will impose a lot of extra cost and time

:11:32.:11:34.

delays around the world at every airport. One of the issues

:11:35.:11:39.

highlighted in this is however much security you put in an airport like

:11:40.:11:44.

Heathrow, that does get the planes flying out but there are also planes

:11:45.:11:47.

flying in from places that are considerably less robust? Has this

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been an issue that people have been worried about? We have been sending

:11:52.:11:56.

inspectors to Sharm el-Sheikh? To look at this? How much precaution

:11:57.:12:03.

has been taken? We have the airlines, 30 years ago, well-known

:12:04.:12:08.

airlines, they were called White knuckle, gripping in fear, but

:12:09.:12:12.

because the CAA checks everything that comes in, foreign airlines are

:12:13.:12:16.

looked at and they are grounded if they were no good so you can sort

:12:17.:12:20.

out those airlines but you cannot sort out those airfields and make

:12:21.:12:24.

sure that ground side as well as airside, everywhere, and this is no

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reflection on Egypt, there are lots of gaps at airports and does not

:12:28.:12:33.

take many people to be able to sneak through the system and put their at

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risk. Can you imagine a situation in which there are blacklisted airports

:12:39.:12:44.

around the place? I can see... It will be a diplomatic embarrassment,

:12:45.:12:48.

if the West goes in and says, but don't trust you. It'll be like trip

:12:49.:12:54.

advisor a different way, we will write these people up. People will

:12:55.:12:58.

want to know this. People will want to know that they get a 5-star

:12:59.:13:02.

rating, they will welcome this and take the advice, as long as it is

:13:03.:13:06.

discreet and diplomatically done. It should work. Do you think that,

:13:07.:13:15.

assuming this is a bomb of some kind, is this an Egypt issue? Sinai?

:13:16.:13:22.

Or is this bigger? Some sort of Islamist issue that could have

:13:23.:13:25.

occurred in a number of airports around the region? It is early to

:13:26.:13:31.

tell but what we could see earlier today is another video being

:13:32.:13:36.

released, apparently by an Isis affiliate from Aleppo in Syria,

:13:37.:13:43.

congratulating Sinai province. They did congratulate Butler was no

:13:44.:13:46.

evidence within that video that showed that they were actually

:13:47.:13:52.

responsible. Now, we do not know who actually carried the site, if there

:13:53.:13:56.

was a bomb. We do not know who would have been responsible for this so it

:13:57.:14:00.

is too early to tell. Is this about Sinai? There is an insurgency in

:14:01.:14:06.

Sinai. It is not around Sharm el-Sheikh, it is further north and

:14:07.:14:11.

Sinai is a huge piece of territory but Isis is active in Sinai. Is it

:14:12.:14:16.

in Egypt? There are other parts of Egypt where Isis is trying to target

:14:17.:14:21.

and we could see the attack on Italian Consulate earlier in the

:14:22.:14:24.

year and in the western desert. But Isis is active across the region,

:14:25.:14:28.

you can see this in Tunisia and Libya, especially in the north of

:14:29.:14:32.

Libya, you can see this in Syria and Iraq and you can see different cells

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trying to claim precedence in different areas and I think the

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issue of religion Islamist extremism will be a problem that the region

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and the world will have to deal with.

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in three words, would you might -- would you put much credence in ices

:14:51.:14:58.

saying they did it or should that be ignored? i would not ignore it but

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we do not have confirmation it was isis who did it, it could have been

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somebody else, another group. it is too early to tell. even if it was

:15:08.:15:13.

not, they have succeeded in a pr coup by causing us to discuss them

:15:14.:15:17.

in that fashion anyway. thank you both very much.

:15:18.:15:19.

It is Russia that suffered the casualties a week ago

:15:20.:15:22.

and Russia that has been sensitive to the speculation over causes

:15:23.:15:24.

That partly stems from its intervention in Syria, prompting

:15:25.:15:27.

questions over whether that could have provoked a response from IS.

:15:28.:15:34.

So the action Russia took today stopping flights to Egypt

:15:35.:15:36.

Gabriel Gatehouse sent us this report from St Petersburg.

:15:37.:15:42.

Another aeroplane landed today, bringing back to Russia yet more

:15:43.:15:45.

It also brought with it part of the wreckage from Sinai to test

:15:46.:15:53.

Could this test have prompted this evening's decision by the Kremlin

:15:54.:15:59.

At an impromptu shrine outside the airport in St Petersburg, they

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People who, in most cases, were strangers until last week

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but whose faces are now becoming part of the national consciousness.

:16:12.:16:14.

The government had, until today, played down suggestions

:16:15.:16:19.

of a bomb on board but most people here seem instinctively to believe

:16:20.:16:22.

I think it must have been terrorism, this woman says.

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Both told me they think it was linked to the war in Syria.

:16:33.:16:42.

In Saint Petersburg and other nearby towns, they are only just

:16:43.:16:45.

Only a small number of bodies have been properly

:16:46.:16:48.

Many of the victims' relatives have been coming here to this hotel next

:16:49.:16:55.

to the airport, looking for answers from the authorities.

:16:56.:17:01.

They will have to wait for DNA analysis before they can properly

:17:02.:17:07.

Some of the relatives are still in there.

:17:08.:17:11.

They do not want to appear on camera but there is a lot of anger,

:17:12.:17:15.

I have just spoken to one woman who lost her daughter and she said to

:17:16.:17:20.

They poke their nose into everything, into Syria, into

:17:21.:17:26.

Saint Petersburg, Russia's old imperial capital,

:17:27.:17:33.

Whatever the cause of the crash, this was his country's worst ever

:17:34.:17:40.

We must all stick together now and support each other.

:17:41.:17:53.

And amid this feeling of solidarity, there is also anger at the West,

:17:54.:17:57.

at what some see as a less than sympathetic response.

:17:58.:18:00.

The Americans have imposed sanctions on us but Obama should have had

:18:01.:18:09.

the guts to offer his condolences to the Russian people.

:18:10.:18:11.

Since the start of Moscow's military campaign

:18:12.:18:18.

in Syria, the Russian public has been fed a daily diet of patriotic

:18:19.:18:25.

newsreels with Putin portrayed as a man of decisive action, saving

:18:26.:18:27.

To tell you the truth, we don't have a lot of things to be

:18:28.:18:37.

Our economy is in crisis and now our government tries to draw

:18:38.:18:42.

the attention of the population to the conflict

:18:43.:18:44.

And the main idea is that Russia is becoming a superpower.

:18:45.:18:55.

Opinion polls suggest that Mr Putin's decision to go to war

:18:56.:18:57.

But if the plane crash over Sinai does turn out to be some sort

:18:58.:19:05.

of payback for the Russian campaign in Syria,

:19:06.:19:07.

then Putin's aura of invincibility begins to slip and Russians will

:19:08.:19:10.

Joining me now is Dr Domitilla Sagramoso, a lecturer

:19:11.:19:21.

in Russian security and development at King's College London.

:19:22.:19:32.

if it turns out that this action is caused or prompted by russian

:19:33.:19:41.

intervention in syria, what would be the consequences of that? i think it

:19:42.:19:48.

will be very serious because people in russian will question the

:19:49.:19:52.

intervention of putin in syria although it might not come in the

:19:53.:19:54.

media. It was all very sanitised on

:19:55.:20:15.

television with Russian casualties. It was popular to a certain extent

:20:16.:20:18.

because Russia was trying to resolve the problem. And the police were

:20:19.:20:26.

standing up... If it was related to Syria, what behavioural response

:20:27.:20:29.

with their beef from Vladimir Putin? More action in Syria? He will not

:20:30.:20:37.

say OK? . Those interventions? Yes, on the one hand, I think we bring

:20:38.:20:42.

the Syrian walk back onto Russia so he will have a very difficult line

:20:43.:20:49.

to move through because on the one hand, he will not want to have more

:20:50.:20:55.

casualties but at the same time, his track record shows that he tends to

:20:56.:20:59.

react quite strongly whenever there have been terrorist attacks against

:21:00.:21:04.

Russians. I would expect probably that he will continue to increase

:21:05.:21:08.

the bombings, he might focus much more on the Isis area where so far

:21:09.:21:13.

he has not really been focusing very much and there is this paradox that

:21:14.:21:19.

to a certain extent, Russia has avoided bombing Isis and if it is

:21:20.:21:22.

proven that an Isis affiliated group is behind it, it is unclear to

:21:23.:21:27.

understand. This has caused tension. Could it

:21:28.:21:39.

bring Russia and the West together? Everybody is worried about ones on

:21:40.:21:45.

planes and that would be a shared interest or Syria becomes even more

:21:46.:21:48.

divisive. There is a very high chance there is a stronger effort to

:21:49.:21:53.

work together because of the awareness of this kind of threat

:21:54.:21:56.

which is common to Russia and the West. Also because Putin will think

:21:57.:22:02.

that besides increasing or continuing with a bombing campaign,

:22:03.:22:05.

he will need to put pressure on President Assad to reap at a

:22:06.:22:11.

political settlement. And last week, we saw Russia working more actively

:22:12.:22:16.

with the West in the field of the gauche Asians so I think that part

:22:17.:22:25.

might be strengthened. -- field of negotiations. I feel a greater

:22:26.:22:29.

readiness of both sides to work and we have seen changes in Russia, in

:22:30.:22:35.

readiness to support, to provide air support to the so-called Free Syrian

:22:36.:22:38.

Army so we have seen changes on the Russian behaviour in Syria. Russia

:22:39.:22:43.

has had a lot of hideous terrorist atrocities and tragedies. How big a

:22:44.:22:50.

psychological scar? 224 people is big. I think this is going to leave

:22:51.:22:56.

a very strong psychological scar because it was quite a while these

:22:57.:23:00.

kind of attacks were occurring in Russia. We had bombings in the metro

:23:01.:23:07.

in 2010, 2013. But it seemed to calm down. In such it, there was talk

:23:08.:23:13.

about the Olympics and we had an attack -- in Saatchi. Not as attack

:23:14.:23:19.

as people expected. And in the North Caucasus, the situation has come

:23:20.:23:22.

down so people were starting to get used to a more secure and safe

:23:23.:23:27.

environment, and we used to travelling abroad, now they will

:23:28.:23:30.

worry about travelling abroad and security generally. It is going to

:23:31.:23:35.

affect them very much and people are going to be quite very worried about

:23:36.:23:37.

this event. Thank you very much. That's all we'll have

:23:38.:23:39.

on the plane story tonight, but of course it is one that

:23:40.:23:41.

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Grime artist Jammer's family home. We were just a voice,

:26:00.:26:10.

we were just the kids that would be in London, that would

:26:11.:26:15.

experience some things that weren't We wanted to make our way out

:26:16.:26:17.

and wanted to get out to free the frustration,

:26:18.:26:22.

rather than going out there and damaging things and robbing

:26:23.:26:24.

people and doing all these things, we'd go and release it on record

:26:25.:26:27.

and let that anger go in the music. # Break everybody down, take

:26:28.:26:32.

everybody down # Any crew, any MC

:26:33.:26:34.

crew, I break down However, this raw, energetic sound

:26:35.:26:36.

increasingly led to fears from venues and licensing police that

:26:37.:26:40.

the music was inciting violence Coupled with the lack

:26:41.:26:42.

of infrastructure and wider music industry support,

:26:43.:26:47.

the original Grime sound was locked # If you work hard, then you can be

:26:48.:26:50.

like me... # When you look at it superficially,

:26:51.:26:57.

you're seeing working class kids It's 140 bpm, so it's going to

:26:58.:27:00.

come across more aggressively It's the same with music back then,

:27:01.:27:05.

you know. A lot of that message was

:27:06.:27:11.

about frustration. It just felt like everyone was

:27:12.:27:15.

against us, all the clubs and the police were shutting us

:27:16.:27:22.

down for whatever reason. We're just guys

:27:23.:27:26.

from the street trying to get out Released at the turn of the decade,

:27:27.:27:28.

Dizzee Rascal tracks like Bonkers reflected many Grime

:27:29.:27:35.

artists' shift to a more commercially

:27:36.:27:37.

acceptable sound after being shut Not inspired by the commercial pop

:27:38.:27:38.

sound adopted by some of the early Grime artists, a new generation have

:27:39.:27:47.

truly taken the bull by the horns and created the sound right back to

:27:48.:27:54.

where it started - the streets, leading to the titans

:27:55.:27:57.

of hip-hop truly paying attention. And perhaps most importantly,

:27:58.:28:01.

success, but without conflicts. In 2015, Grime reached millions

:28:02.:28:06.

of new ears when Kanye West invited artists such as Stormzy,

:28:07.:28:09.

Jammer and Skepta onto the stage Whilst before, it was played in

:28:10.:28:12.

basement sessions to a dozen people in Bow, Grime is now headlining huge

:28:13.:28:24.

venues across the country. Like in Leeds, for 1Xtra Live,

:28:25.:28:28.

where over 10,000 people came to see Back then, I could never have

:28:29.:28:31.

imagined where we are now. It was more just like a hobby,

:28:32.:28:39.

something to do. Like, I was a kid in college,

:28:40.:28:44.

going to Top of the Pops, Little did I know 11 years on,

:28:45.:28:47.

I'm at Leeds Arena, about to perform in front

:28:48.:28:52.

of 12,000 people, untold shows. My gigs are now music lovers,

:28:53.:28:56.

Grime fans. But they might like a bit of punk,

:28:57.:28:58.

they might like a bit of Oasis. # People might call me

:28:59.:29:02.

a back-up dancer... # We're definitely in

:29:03.:29:04.

a much better place commercially. What Stormzy has achieved is

:29:05.:29:06.

incredible, the weekend it came out,

:29:07.:29:07.

it sat above One Direction I think it's reflective of the

:29:08.:29:15.

audience and the power of social Groups like The Square

:29:16.:29:30.

are bringing the notion You Tube, WhatsApp

:29:31.:29:32.

and Snapchat have replaced pirate We were on the road and going

:29:33.:29:35.

into the studio. And outside McDonald's,

:29:36.:29:40.

like, spitting outside there. To an audience whose parents have

:29:41.:29:42.

Rebel Sounds - including rock, punk, indie,

:29:43.:29:47.

reggae, new wave and acid house - UK Grime is on the cusp of being

:29:48.:29:50.

as internationally influential as Mistajam the DJ there,

:29:51.:29:53.

on the resurgance of Grime music. The Daily male is leading on an

:29:54.:30:13.

apparent rocket attack on a British plane flying into Sharm el-Sheikh

:30:14.:30:20.

which came within 1,000 feet of a rocket, how come we did not hear

:30:21.:30:22.

about that at the time? Artistic Director of the

:30:23.:30:26.

Donmar Warehouse, Josie Rourke, explores how the role of the 'hero'

:30:27.:30:28.

is evolving on stage and screen. It's a star-packed episode with

:30:29.:30:32.

contributions from Aaron Sorkin, Tom Hiddleston,

:30:33.:30:34.

Phyllida Lloyd and Harriet Walter.

:30:35.:30:36.

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