06/11/2015 Newsnight


The latest from Moscow and Cairo on the Sinai plane crash - was it a bomb? And Radio 1's Mistajam explores the Grime music scene. With Evan Davis.

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No official confirmation on that Russian plane yet, but today


the world went from asking "was it downed by a bomb" to answering "yes,


A week after the crash of the Metrojet flight, senior


French aviation officials close to the investigation are ruling out


We are seeing more and more signs that


the accident may have been caused by an explosion on board the aircraft.


And Russia has done an about turn, now stopping all


We'll get the latest from Russia and Egypt and ask


whether aviation is now in for a new period of heightened alert.


And on Artsnight, the artistic director of the Donmar Warehouse,


Josie Rourke, looks at the role of the hero in drama and talks to


Tom Hiddleston about his latest role as country singer Hank Williams.


Hank has a rebelliousness that I don't have.


I am too English and too well brought up, probably.


Do you think you will acquire that with age?


I don't know that I will ever walk out of an interview.


It is now looking highly probable that the Metrojet Flight


The voice recorders are said to point to that.


Officials from France close to the investigation say it was not


The Americans have come round to the British view of the intelligence


And the first sign that the possibility of a bomb had been


elevated to a probability was the news from Russia that the country


Having criticised Britain for acting prematurely in stopping


flights to Sharm el-Sheikh, Russia abruptly announced that it was


Gabriel Gatehouse is in St Petersburg for us, where


Gabriel, to what extent what the Russians interpreting this sudden


move to stop all flights to Egypt, to what extent with the interpreting


that is a sign that Russia believes this was a bomb? Well, it is quite


an about turn. Yesterday, chastising the British for jumping the gun and


now going much further than anyone in stopping all flights to Egypt.


Officially, the Kremlin still says this does not mean it was either was


not a bomb, they are going on a fact -based basis and following the


investigation and the Russian press still not speculating about whether


this means this was a bomb. They talk about how Russian tour


operators will go bust but if you look at the sequence of events


today, you see that, this morning, a bit of wreckage from the crash was


flown into Moscow which was to be examined for traces of explosives


and later this evening we see the head of the FSB suggesting to that


Putin that he stops flights and he readily agrees to that and the whole


thing moves on so when you look at how fast this has moved, it is


difficult to come to any other conclusion. Reports tonight say that


the British and Americans shared some intelligence with the Russians


before this decision was made public, but either way it seems hard


to come to any other conclusion and on the streets here in Russia when


you speak to people, most people seem to come to that conclusion


anyway. Thank you. We will hear more from Gabriel later on.


Well, there is a news conference due at 3pm tomorrow afternoon in Cairo.


The chairman of the Egyptian-led probe into the plane crash will be


speaking along with the civil aviation minister.


We'll see what comes out of that, but if a bomb has killed 224 people


on a plane, it will undoubtedly lead to renewed anxieties about aviation


security and the issue of smaller airports with less robust


There have been many attempts to bring planes down in recent years.


The shoe bomber, the liquid explosive bomb plot,


But the last flights actually to be brought down in


a comparable way were two domestic Russian flights back in 2004.


David Grossman has been looking at the investigation into this


flight and the implications that may be emerging from it.


I ran the water, the theory of a bomb on the plane has gained ground.


There is a possibility that there is a bomb. On board. From being


critical of David Cameron's response, the Russian government


joined the British in cancelling flights and preparing to bring its


national song. Tonight, senior aviation officials close to the


investigation have told the BBC that they have ruled out the possibility


that there was any fault or technical issue with the plane that


led to the crash. The full investigation will focus on every


aspect of the accident and will also be looking for a possible structural


failure not caused by a bomb but we are seeing more and more signs that


the accident may have been caused by an explosion on board the aircraft.


The investigation will focus on three main areas. Firstly, sifting


through as far as possible and reconstructing the wreckage, looking


at how the fabric of the plane has been burned and misshapen, finding


the centre of an explosion. Secondly, adding that the flight


data and recorders. According to the Russian news agency, the latter have


been found with uncharacteristic signs that suggests an emergency


situation occurred on board unexpectedly and it took the crew by


surprise. The third source will be detailed examinations of the bodies


of the 224 people who died. The condition and position of the


victims can offer significant clues. And this process is not quick. This


is the wreckage from MH17, destroyed over Ukraine in July 2014, being


pieced back together. The initial assessment, determining the cause as


an external exposure, to cover one month. The final report, blaming a


rocket launcher fired by Russian backed rebels, is only published


last month, 15 months afterwards. The Russian investigators will have


some experience in this regard, the Russians lost two domestic passenger


flights in 2004 from Moscow to Sochi and both of those were taken down by


female suicide warmers and when they did analysis they discovered the


classic signature evidence of an internal explosion and you had metal


curling outwards, the blast effect, and the residue of high explosives.


In this case, the Egyptians, Russians and the Irish air crash


investigators on site will be looking for all of those tell-tale


signs. If this is the first plane destroyed by a bomb for over one


decade, it will most certainly lead to significant changes to the regime


governing airport security. We have seen the rules change in the past.


For example, on liquids, in response to known threats. It can cause an


airline, for example, to be placed on the European no-fly list, on a


list of airlines that are not allowed to operate into the EU. And,


well, who knows what this change will bring? Perhaps it will change


security as well and it will mean that countries have to explain and


prove that they are capable of conducting proper security measures


at all of their airports before any flights can be conducted from these


countries into Europe. The Egyptian government is increasingly isolated


tonight in its refusal to acknowledge that the likelihood is a


bomb that caused this disaster. The invitations for the tourist industry


and for global aviation security are set to be far-reaching. We can pick


up on some of those issues. Here with me now are Andrew Brookes


from RUSI, and from Cairo, Middle If I can start with you, the


indications for Egypt, there are so many. I think that is a very bad


place to begin for the Egyptians. The local population within the


Sinai area lives from the tourism industry tremendously and across the


country, the tourism industry will be hit very badly, simply by what


has happened so far. Just the very suggestion that security is not what


it should be banned that an attack would have taken place, just that


suggestion being flooded before all of these close to confirmation


suggestions has already hit the tourism industry and people who work


in that industry are being hurt tremendously already. It has been


very strange that this has occurred whilst President Sese has been here


in London, just an awful week for him. And for diplomacy between Egypt


and the UK and other countries? I think the curry was particularly


annoyed that London declared that we think there was a high mobility or a


more likely than not possibility that this was a bomb. -- Cairo.


Having said that, I do not think that Cairo can stand by that any


longer on every PC that so many other countries, including Russia,


have also taken steps that are even stronger than the British response.


Indeed, it is not a particularly good week for London - Cairo


diplomacy or current's diplomacy with the international community


when it comes to promoting Egypt as a safe place for tourism and one


that the international committee should send tourists to. Andrew. How


important is this for aviation and the industry? It is seminal, since


September the 11th, we have focused on people getting on board and being


suicide bombers and we have spent a lot of time, ground site, screening


and checking, over checking, double-checking, to prevent that


happening and we are also reverting to those pre-9/11 days and somebody


put a bomb on board and walked away, like Lockerbie. You must protect the


airfield, that is airside. That will impose a lot of extra cost and time


delays around the world at every airport. One of the issues


highlighted in this is however much security you put in an airport like


Heathrow, that does get the planes flying out but there are also planes


flying in from places that are considerably less robust? Has this


been an issue that people have been worried about? We have been sending


inspectors to Sharm el-Sheikh? To look at this? How much precaution


has been taken? We have the airlines, 30 years ago, well-known


airlines, they were called White knuckle, gripping in fear, but


because the CAA checks everything that comes in, foreign airlines are


looked at and they are grounded if they were no good so you can sort


out those airlines but you cannot sort out those airfields and make


sure that ground side as well as airside, everywhere, and this is no


reflection on Egypt, there are lots of gaps at airports and does not


take many people to be able to sneak through the system and put their at


risk. Can you imagine a situation in which there are blacklisted airports


around the place? I can see... It will be a diplomatic embarrassment,


if the West goes in and says, but don't trust you. It'll be like trip


advisor a different way, we will write these people up. People will


want to know this. People will want to know that they get a 5-star


rating, they will welcome this and take the advice, as long as it is


discreet and diplomatically done. It should work. Do you think that,


assuming this is a bomb of some kind, is this an Egypt issue? Sinai?


Or is this bigger? Some sort of Islamist issue that could have


occurred in a number of airports around the region? It is early to


tell but what we could see earlier today is another video being


released, apparently by an Isis affiliate from Aleppo in Syria,


congratulating Sinai province. They did congratulate Butler was no


evidence within that video that showed that they were actually


responsible. Now, we do not know who actually carried the site, if there


was a bomb. We do not know who would have been responsible for this so it


is too early to tell. Is this about Sinai? There is an insurgency in


Sinai. It is not around Sharm el-Sheikh, it is further north and


Sinai is a huge piece of territory but Isis is active in Sinai. Is it


in Egypt? There are other parts of Egypt where Isis is trying to target


and we could see the attack on Italian Consulate earlier in the


year and in the western desert. But Isis is active across the region,


you can see this in Tunisia and Libya, especially in the north of


Libya, you can see this in Syria and Iraq and you can see different cells


trying to claim precedence in different areas and I think the


issue of religion Islamist extremism will be a problem that the region


and the world will have to deal with.


in three words, would you might -- would you put much credence in ices


saying they did it or should that be ignored? i would not ignore it but


we do not have confirmation it was isis who did it, it could have been


somebody else, another group. it is too early to tell. even if it was


not, they have succeeded in a pr coup by causing us to discuss them


in that fashion anyway. thank you both very much.


It is Russia that suffered the casualties a week ago


and Russia that has been sensitive to the speculation over causes


That partly stems from its intervention in Syria, prompting


questions over whether that could have provoked a response from IS.


So the action Russia took today stopping flights to Egypt


Gabriel Gatehouse sent us this report from St Petersburg.


Another aeroplane landed today, bringing back to Russia yet more


It also brought with it part of the wreckage from Sinai to test


Could this test have prompted this evening's decision by the Kremlin


At an impromptu shrine outside the airport in St Petersburg, they


People who, in most cases, were strangers until last week


but whose faces are now becoming part of the national consciousness.


The government had, until today, played down suggestions


of a bomb on board but most people here seem instinctively to believe


I think it must have been terrorism, this woman says.


Both told me they think it was linked to the war in Syria.


In Saint Petersburg and other nearby towns, they are only just


Only a small number of bodies have been properly


Many of the victims' relatives have been coming here to this hotel next


to the airport, looking for answers from the authorities.


They will have to wait for DNA analysis before they can properly


Some of the relatives are still in there.


They do not want to appear on camera but there is a lot of anger,


I have just spoken to one woman who lost her daughter and she said to


They poke their nose into everything, into Syria, into


Saint Petersburg, Russia's old imperial capital,


Whatever the cause of the crash, this was his country's worst ever


We must all stick together now and support each other.


And amid this feeling of solidarity, there is also anger at the West,


at what some see as a less than sympathetic response.


The Americans have imposed sanctions on us but Obama should have had


the guts to offer his condolences to the Russian people.


Since the start of Moscow's military campaign


in Syria, the Russian public has been fed a daily diet of patriotic


newsreels with Putin portrayed as a man of decisive action, saving


To tell you the truth, we don't have a lot of things to be


Our economy is in crisis and now our government tries to draw


the attention of the population to the conflict


And the main idea is that Russia is becoming a superpower.


Opinion polls suggest that Mr Putin's decision to go to war


But if the plane crash over Sinai does turn out to be some sort


of payback for the Russian campaign in Syria,


then Putin's aura of invincibility begins to slip and Russians will


Joining me now is Dr Domitilla Sagramoso, a lecturer


in Russian security and development at King's College London.


if it turns out that this action is caused or prompted by russian


intervention in syria, what would be the consequences of that? i think it


will be very serious because people in russian will question the


intervention of putin in syria although it might not come in the


media. It was all very sanitised on


television with Russian casualties. It was popular to a certain extent


because Russia was trying to resolve the problem. And the police were


standing up... If it was related to Syria, what behavioural response


with their beef from Vladimir Putin? More action in Syria? He will not


say OK? . Those interventions? Yes, on the one hand, I think we bring


the Syrian walk back onto Russia so he will have a very difficult line


to move through because on the one hand, he will not want to have more


casualties but at the same time, his track record shows that he tends to


react quite strongly whenever there have been terrorist attacks against


Russians. I would expect probably that he will continue to increase


the bombings, he might focus much more on the Isis area where so far


he has not really been focusing very much and there is this paradox that


to a certain extent, Russia has avoided bombing Isis and if it is


proven that an Isis affiliated group is behind it, it is unclear to


understand. This has caused tension. Could it


bring Russia and the West together? Everybody is worried about ones on


planes and that would be a shared interest or Syria becomes even more


divisive. There is a very high chance there is a stronger effort to


work together because of the awareness of this kind of threat


which is common to Russia and the West. Also because Putin will think


that besides increasing or continuing with a bombing campaign,


he will need to put pressure on President Assad to reap at a


political settlement. And last week, we saw Russia working more actively


with the West in the field of the gauche Asians so I think that part


might be strengthened. -- field of negotiations. I feel a greater


readiness of both sides to work and we have seen changes in Russia, in


readiness to support, to provide air support to the so-called Free Syrian


Army so we have seen changes on the Russian behaviour in Syria. Russia


has had a lot of hideous terrorist atrocities and tragedies. How big a


psychological scar? 224 people is big. I think this is going to leave


a very strong psychological scar because it was quite a while these


kind of attacks were occurring in Russia. We had bombings in the metro


in 2010, 2013. But it seemed to calm down. In such it, there was talk


about the Olympics and we had an attack -- in Saatchi. Not as attack


as people expected. And in the North Caucasus, the situation has come


down so people were starting to get used to a more secure and safe


environment, and we used to travelling abroad, now they will


worry about travelling abroad and security generally. It is going to


affect them very much and people are going to be quite very worried about


this event. Thank you very much. That's all we'll have


on the plane story tonight, but of course it is one that


the News Channel and BBC online will Now, never let it be said we don't


offer a broad cultural education It's Grime tonight,


a genre of music that originated It draws on a number


of different styles - garage, drum It's pacey when measured


in beats per minute or bpm. And it's often characterised


by dark, low basslines That's a few descriptive facts,


unfortunately, they don't tell you anything


about what Grime is really about. Or how it became diluted


in the last decade. Or how it's now rediscovering


itself, and possibly becoming But someone who can tell you


about all those things is the Radio 1 DJ and Grime afficionado Pete


Dalton, best known as MistaJam. # London calling to the faraway


towns... # A youth culture movement birthed


from the street, giving voice to But it's not the '70s


and I'm not talking about punk. For today and the past decade,


the sound is Grime. In its rawest form,


it's having a resurgence. With a sound steeped


in its own history. And in 2015,


it's threatening to go global. # Went to the show,


sitting in the front row... # If you see a kid wearing Nike,


that's Grime to me. All that, everything that you see


from our generation is Grime. The sky's the limit for Grime right


now. This is Roman Road in East


London, the epicentre for the genesis


of the movement, culture In New York


in the early '70s, the South Bronx was to hip-hop what this place right


here, Bow E3, is to Grime. Taking cues


from Jamaican Sound System culture, Grime was crafted from clashes and


MC battles in inner-city London and which started in the basement of


Grime artist Jammer's family home. We were just a voice,


we were just the kids that would be in London, that would


experience some things that weren't We wanted to make our way out


and wanted to get out to free the frustration,


rather than going out there and damaging things and robbing


people and doing all these things, we'd go and release it on record


and let that anger go in the music. # Break everybody down, take


everybody down # Any crew, any MC


crew, I break down However, this raw, energetic sound


increasingly led to fears from venues and licensing police that


the music was inciting violence Coupled with the lack


of infrastructure and wider music industry support,


the original Grime sound was locked # If you work hard, then you can be


like me... # When you look at it superficially,


you're seeing working class kids It's 140 bpm, so it's going to


come across more aggressively It's the same with music back then,


you know. A lot of that message was


about frustration. It just felt like everyone was


against us, all the clubs and the police were shutting us


down for whatever reason. We're just guys


from the street trying to get out Released at the turn of the decade,


Dizzee Rascal tracks like Bonkers reflected many Grime


artists' shift to a more commercially


acceptable sound after being shut Not inspired by the commercial pop


sound adopted by some of the early Grime artists, a new generation have


truly taken the bull by the horns and created the sound right back to


where it started - the streets, leading to the titans


of hip-hop truly paying attention. And perhaps most importantly,


success, but without conflicts. In 2015, Grime reached millions


of new ears when Kanye West invited artists such as Stormzy,


Jammer and Skepta onto the stage Whilst before, it was played in


basement sessions to a dozen people in Bow, Grime is now headlining huge


venues across the country. Like in Leeds, for 1Xtra Live,


where over 10,000 people came to see Back then, I could never have


imagined where we are now. It was more just like a hobby,


something to do. Like, I was a kid in college,


going to Top of the Pops, Little did I know 11 years on,


I'm at Leeds Arena, about to perform in front


of 12,000 people, untold shows. My gigs are now music lovers,


Grime fans. But they might like a bit of punk,


they might like a bit of Oasis. # People might call me


a back-up dancer... # We're definitely in


a much better place commercially. What Stormzy has achieved is


incredible, the weekend it came out,


it sat above One Direction I think it's reflective of the


audience and the power of social Groups like The Square


are bringing the notion You Tube, WhatsApp


and Snapchat have replaced pirate We were on the road and going


into the studio. And outside McDonald's,


like, spitting outside there. To an audience whose parents have


Rebel Sounds - including rock, punk, indie,


reggae, new wave and acid house - UK Grime is on the cusp of being


as internationally influential as Mistajam the DJ there,


on the resurgance of Grime music. The Daily male is leading on an


apparent rocket attack on a British plane flying into Sharm el-Sheikh


which came within 1,000 feet of a rocket, how come we did not hear


about that at the time? Artistic Director of the


Donmar Warehouse, Josie Rourke, explores how the role of the 'hero'


is evolving on stage and screen. It's a star-packed episode with


contributions from Aaron Sorkin, Tom Hiddleston,


Phyllida Lloyd and Harriet Walter.


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