Browse content similar to 05/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Flights to the UK from the stricken resort of Sharm el-Sheik will resume | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
tomorrow, following the government's decision last night to suspend them. | :00:08. | :00:13. | |
But has the diplomatic damage already been done? | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
It made for an awkward press conference this | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
afternoon between David Cameron and the visiting President Sisi. | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
Has the Prime Minister embarrassed his guest? | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
We'll ask the former Egyptian Foreign Minister. | :00:27. | :00:37. | |
British officials raised concerns last year about the lax security in | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
Sharm el-Sheikh and Cairo. One man's experience at Sharm | :00:45. | :00:46. | |
el-Sheik airport may indicate why. We put the main suitcase onto the | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
conveyor, checked the passports. Then went to the gate ready to board | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
the plane and at no point did we And it's been called the most | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
disruptive change to higher education for 20 years - a new green | :00:56. | :01:04. | |
paper is published tomorrow on the We'll speak to the Universities | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
Minister, Jo Johnston. As speculation about what caused it | :01:10. | :01:23. | |
continues, the British Government's response to Saturday's air crash in | :01:24. | :01:25. | |
Egypt has cast a diplomatic shadow over the state visit of Egyptian | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi. He claims that British concerns | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
about safety at Sharm el-Sheikh airport, whence the doomed flight | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
embarked for Moscow before breaking up over the Sinai Peninsula, killing | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
all 224 people on board, were addressed ten months ago to | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
the satisfaction of British Whitehall sources have told this | :01:47. | :01:57. | |
programme they feared the situation had slipped back in recent months. | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
Thousands of British tourists will fly back from Sharm el-Sheikh | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
without the luggage tomorrow after David Cameron gave the go-ahead for | :02:07. | :02:08. | |
air travel to resume. The Prime Minister's position also | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
appears to have irked Russian president, Vladimir Putin, | :02:12. | :02:13. | |
who contended during a phone call between the two men today, that | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
countries should have waited for crash investigations to be completed | :02:17. | :02:18. | |
before issuing any no-fly orders. Newsnight's diplomatic editor | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
Mark Urban reports. With Egyptian exiles still angry | :02:22. | :02:34. | |
about the way the army crushed the Muslim Brotherhood, this visit could | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
easily have been dominated by discussion of human rights. The | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
aircraft tragedy redefined everything and President Sisi was on | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
the offensive today, pointing out Britain had checked out Sharm | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
el-Sheikh's security earlier this year. | :02:53. | :03:01. | |
TRANSLATION: Ten months ago, we were asked by our British friends to send | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
teams to Sharm el-Sheikh airport to make sure all the security | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
procedures there are well enough and provide the adequate safety and | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
security for the passengers. And we understood their concern because we | :03:16. | :03:22. | |
are interested in the safety and security of our nationals. The | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
British experts, the President insisted had left satisfied. So | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
while a further British team has re-examined security precautions at | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
the airport, thousands of holiday-makers have been waiting to | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
come home. Their journeys will resume with hand luggage only | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
tomorrow. What caused Britain to stop, but wasn't serious enough to | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
require major changes at this airport, or holds some other | :03:49. | :03:56. | |
countries from carrying on flying? The government has cited secret | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
intelligence to explain its decision, but such information | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
rarely offers absolute certainty. That is why now, just as in June | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
following the attack in Tunisia, some other governments are not | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
matching Britain's advice to citizens to leave immediately. What | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
one can conclude from all this? Mainly the British are far less | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
willing to take risks in these situations. I act on the basis of | :04:23. | :04:30. | |
intelligence I receive. I act on the basis of advice that I get. Of | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
course, I cannot be sure, my experts cannot be sure that it was a | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
terrorist bomb that brought down by Russian plane. If the intelligence | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
is and the judgment is, that is more likely than not outcome, I think it | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
is right to act in the way that I did. Sharm el-Sheikh security has | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
been breached before. For example, with a wave of suicide bombings ten | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
years ago. Egypt's responded by creating a large security zone | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
around the resort. But in the past double macro years, fighting with | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
Islamic militants further north has spread, making much of the Peninsula | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
area and raising questions again about the resort's safety. I think | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
the Egyptian authorities found themselves in a situation where they | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
constantly try to make the case Egypt is engaged in a war on terror | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
and the international security should support it or back it up. | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
When questions are raised about civil rights abuses of human rights | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
violations, they ought to remember they take place against the backdrop | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
of war on terror. At the same time, pushing Egypt as a tourism | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
destination, where things are fine and the country is very safe and | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
this people ought to come. It is difficult to square that circle, to | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
have those two narratives in play at the same time. Central to the past | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
few days has been the intelligence gathered by agencies like GCHQ and | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
its interpretation. Tonight, an American official contradict did the | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
British government saying Britain has a much lower threshold in react | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
to chatter and America's assessment as to whether it was a bomb hasn't | :06:22. | :06:23. | |
been changed by recent intelligence. In a moment, | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
we will be hearing from a member of President Sisi's delegation here | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
in London, but first, let's get perspectives from Gabriel Gatehouse | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
in Moscow and Lyse Doucet in Cairo. Gabriel, what have the Russians been | :06:32. | :06:44. | |
saying today in response to these claims by Britain? The Russians are | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
very much trying to pour cold water on any suggestion it was an act of | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
terrorism. Russia's head of aviation suggested the British might have | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
been indulging in fantasies. He says they would follow the fax and the | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
best and would take several months. My colleagues here managed to speak | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
to a spokesman for the Foreign Ministry, who said she was shocked | :07:11. | :07:19. | |
and surprised to realised the UK might be in possession that could | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
shed light on this and suggested the UK might be following certain aims | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
by not sharing that information. The big unspoken fear, of course, this | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
attack was some sort of retaliation for Russia's involvement in Syria. I | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
asked the Kremlin spokesman, if that turned out to be the case would it | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
affect Russia's actions in Syria? He said bluntly, this situation has | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
nothing to do with Syria. So it is an unspoken fear, as well as | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
metaphorically for the public. What is the mood in Moscow? It is one of | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
the biggest air disasters in Russian history, are the citizens not asking | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
questions about the Syrian connection? It is the biggest air | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
disaster in Russia's history. The citizens on social media are asking | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
these questions, but extraordinarily, in the papers you | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
will see almost no discussion of this. I read a 2000 word article | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
today which discussed airline safety, the age of aircraft, whether | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
foreign aircraft should be allowed to be used in Russia. Not a mention | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
of the theory this might be brought down by a bomb. It may be, as one | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
newspaper suggested, the British press is a little bit hysterical, | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
more dramatic than the Russian press. But there is something else | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
at work. For the first month at the Russia's intervention in Syria, it | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
was broadcast daily on the television. It was almost Hollywood | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
standards with drone footage set to music, showing Russia as the strong | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
force that is tackling Islamic extremism, Islamic terrorism. All of | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
that has been pushed to the back now. I think there really is an | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
nervousness here, that if this does turn out to be some sort of revenge | :09:10. | :09:16. | |
attack for Russia's involvement in Syria, opinion here will shift, not | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
only for their support for their actions in Syria, but also for | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
support for President Putin and the Kremlin itself. It was supposed to | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
be something of a show these visit for the Egyptian president, it is | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
not turning out verse. How much damage as this cause diplomatically | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
away from the television cameras? It was always going to be a visit with | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
sensitivities, but the sensitivities shifted to another level. It is | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
undeniable the developments over the investigation into the Russian | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
airliner have damaged, in a certain degree, the relationship between | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
Britain and Egypt. As one of the senior members of President CC's | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
delegation said to me, it is supposed to be a partnership. You | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
have to look at both sides. David Cameron has to come out and put the | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
interests of the dish tourists first, but he said what about our | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
tourism industry, the millions who depend upon it? Why didn't they show | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
an understanding that we should have come to an agreement before the | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
statement came out as to what could be done? I understand after | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
residents CC's delegation arrived in London, there were hours of | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
discussion back and forth from others from the delegation to try to | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
come to some understanding. The Egyptians said, couldn't there be an | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
announcement of a suspension of flights for 24 hours. The British | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
said it wasn't enough, there are 20,000 tourists and we need to be | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
clear. I understand it was the Prime Minister who said, we have asked the | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
Egyptians to take a certain amount of steps. Egyptians said they have | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
carried them out, it wasn't good enough for Britain and they decided | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
to take the dramatic announcement. Britain would have liked David | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
Cameron and President Sisi to come out and announced this is our joint | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
plan of action. The Egyptians said, no. I pushed back and said we simply | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
cannot make up political statement. We need to discuss the technical | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
side and the implementation. We're not going do it. There was a strain, | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
but it has to be underlined, both countries know, both governments | :11:36. | :11:37. | |
know, there is too much at stake and they have to work together. As one | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
member of the British government said to me, all of this has touched | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
some very raw nerves on the Egyptian side and it will be raw for some | :11:47. | :11:48. | |
time. Thank you both very much. Mohammed al-Orabi is in the UK as | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
part of President Sisi's delegation. He's a former Foreign Minister | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
of Egypt. When did President Sisi find out | :11:55. | :12:05. | |
what David Cameron was planning to do because we heard the announcement | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
of the cessation of flights while the delegation was in the air? I | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
don't ring so. My information is saying President Sisi received a | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
telephone call from the Prime Minister of written, David Cameron, | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
the day before his departure to the UK. We don't know the content of | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
this telephone call. But I guess as the two leaders had information, | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
exchanged information on that regards, and I think President Sisi | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
was determined to fulfil the visit and to come and argue, to listen and | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
give also his points of view to the British government and try to solve | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
the matter. To be clear, you think he flew here in the knowledge are | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
Prime Minister was about to effectively ban flights from Cairo | :12:59. | :13:07. | |
and Sharm el-Sheikh? No, the decision was taken yesterday evening | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
from the British side. The David Cameron told our president there is | :13:13. | :13:14. | |
some information about a certain case. Has he shared that | :13:15. | :13:22. | |
intelligence? I am not sure. How come the president is coming here | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
today and he received a telephone call from the British Prime Minister | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
and I think they had a discussion about this matter. It has been a | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
little embarrassing for the delegation to arrive in a country as | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
backcountry's leader and answers to the people who live here they are | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
not safe to fly to your country? It is not an embarrassment, but in this | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
kind of relationship between two friendly countries, I guess we are | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
open to receive some criticism every now and again. Also you had the | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
patience to listen to us and to listen about our worries on | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
different issues. We had many confrontations during the | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
discussion, many issues on the Middle East. You know, we are living | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
in a volatile region. Egypt's is sitting in a turbulent sea. Due to | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
the wisdom of the president, I think we managed to overcome these | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
difficulties for the last, I would say 17 or 18 months. You describe it | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
as a turbulent region and we have two UK aviation experts who flew in | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
yesterday and have apparently informed the Prime Minister, it's | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
not safe. You cannot guarantee the security of British tourists at all, | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
by the sounds of it? I don't think this is the absolute judgment. Egypt | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
is always open for security delegations from European countries | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
to check the measurements of security at airports of Egypt's, not | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
just Cairo and Sharm el-Sheikh, but other regions. We didn't receive any | :15:05. | :15:15. | |
observations whatsoever for the last ten months. Including the British | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
side. So, it was a bad incident to have this kind of accident and we | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
are so sorry the Russians lost their lives in this accident. We also | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
appreciate any efforts exerted by any government to guarantee the | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
safety of their citizens. We really appreciate what David Cameron took | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
to maintain the security of the British people. We're not against | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
that, but the thing, I think is premature. By our government? You | :15:49. | :16:00. | |
think David Cameron move to early? Too early, we didn't check out the | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
black box of this plane. You have seen our report this evening and I | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
spoke to a woman who flew back on Saturday and her son walk through | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
the baggage check without having a 2 litre bottle of liquid notice. We | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
heard from one tourist who didn't even have his bags checked at all. | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
It paints a very ugly picture and to describe the Prime Minister's | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
caution as premature seems perhaps a little disingenuous? Haps, but the | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
basics of his decision on information suggesting it was an | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
explosive device on the plane, that was the statement by your government | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
and by the Americans. The Americans may be tracking back slightly from | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
that position, but you have no knowledge or understanding of | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
decisively where David Cameron got the idea that it was increasingly | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
likely, which I think was his phrase? We don't know from what | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
source he had this information. You began by portraying the visit as | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
cordial and successful? It was. Despite not knowing why the Prime | :17:12. | :17:13. | |
Minister has effectively banned people? | :17:14. | :17:26. | |
In the meantime, as your correspondence from Cairo said, | :17:27. | :17:34. | |
British tourism is 1.5% of our GDP. It is a great loss. I look forward | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
to hearing more from you, Ambassador. | :17:40. | :17:41. | |
Whatever conclusions the investigations arrive at and | :17:42. | :17:42. | |
whatever transpires politically, it's clear that airport security has | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
Newsnight has learned that improvements implemented at Sharm | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
el-Sheikh airport, in response to British concerns just | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
under a year ago, were feared by officials to have | :17:55. | :17:56. | |
According to Whitehall sources, there were particular issues with | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
baggage handling and access to restricted areas. | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
Newsnight's Nick Hopkins has been investigating the claims | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
and examining the broader question of whether airports can ever be | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
If it was a bomb that brought down Metrojet flight 628, | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
the question is, how did it get through Sharm el-Sheikh airport? | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
As passengers prepare to fly out tomorrow, stories emerged today | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
Claims of guards nodding off and playing Candy Crush on their phones. | :18:29. | :18:37. | |
An official asked for ?20 in Stirling to jump the queue. | :18:38. | :18:46. | |
We literally avoided the whole queue, we went right to the front. | :18:47. | :18:56. | |
And then we put the main suitcase onto the conveyor, we checked the | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
passports. We then went to the checkout, to the gate, ready to | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
board the plane, and at no point did we have our bags or our person | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
checked and only then did we realise the magnitude of what had happened. | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
President Sese conceded Britain had checked security at Sharm el-Sheikh | :19:17. | :19:26. | |
this year. -- President Sisi. As things improved, officials feared | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
the situation had slipped again in recent months. | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
There was on ongoing programme to help Egyptians in any way we could | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
to improve security and we worked very well together, they were | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
extremely appreciative. Egypt was very grateful. These decisions are | :19:44. | :19:51. | |
not taken lightly at all and the history of the entire system in | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
Whitehall has looked at security in Egypt over the last years and the | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
premise is already taken a direct interest in cell. Leaves me in no | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
doubt this is a very heavily considered decision and in my view, | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
it must be well founded. The Army at Heathrow, after 9/11, | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
airport security was transformed, liquids were banned and shoes were | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
x-rayed. Queues were ever longer. But some experts say it is not fair | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
to single out Sharm el-Sheikh. I actually do not think that | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
security at that airport is necessarily worse than at many other | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
airports around the world and it is very easy with hindsight to focus | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
all our attentions on that one location when we know that there are | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
huge limitations to the security systems around the world. Not only | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
in the Middle East, not only in Africa, but even in the Western | :20:44. | :20:45. | |
world. In June this year in America. Under | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
-- undercover agents from homeland security but screeners to the test | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
at dozens of the nation's begin -- busiest airports and they failed | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
miserably. The scams fails to pick up in 67 out of 17 tests guns. | :21:01. | :21:08. | |
Security experts have told others security at Sharm el-Sheikh can be | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
poor but maybe not for the reasons you might imagine. They describe a | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
culture of deference from airport security staff towards travellers | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
which means that some people do not get checked and challenged. It is | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
equally possible that if this was a bomb, it was an inside job. The | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
official report could take months and the controversy is unlikely to | :21:33. | :21:33. | |
The Sinai Peninsula, the eastern part of Egypt that joins | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
the country to Israel, is the home of Sinai Province, the IS affiliated | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
militant group who claim to have downed the Russian airliner. | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
Here to explore who they are, and how the Egyptian authorities have | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
Part of the Egyptian presidential delegation, Mohammed al-Orabi. This | :21:51. | :22:04. | |
woman is living in exile after being sentenced to death under the current | :22:05. | :22:13. | |
government. And from the USA... I will begin with you. Have the | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
policies of President Sisi had an effect upon terrorist activities or | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
encountering extremism? I think a heavy-handed security approach in | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
Sinai and elsewhere in Egypt has proven to be a failure. And quoting | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
President Sisi himself before the military coup of 2013 when he was | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
addressing the Army, he himself said that a heavy-handed security | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
approach in Sinai would backfire. And it would turn Sinai into a | :22:48. | :22:56. | |
would-be South Sudan. And this is probably, he forgot about that. And | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
I think the current policies, they are precisely contributing to this | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
scenario. Tell me about those policies, what you mean by | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
heavy-handed? What I mean is a misguided security approach in | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
Sinai. As a recent report by humans rights watch suggests the current | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
the current policies in Sinai target civilians -- Human Rights Watch. | :23:24. | :23:25. | |
They displace thousands of civilians, at least 10,000 civilians | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
have been displaced from their homes which were demolished by the | :23:31. | :23:41. | |
military of Mr Sisi. And at the same time, we can see the continuing rise | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
of militant insurgency in Sinai and even in the heart of Cairo we have | :23:48. | :23:56. | |
seen bombings carried out for which Isis has claimed responsibility. So | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
we see concrete evidence that the current security policy of the | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
regime is counter-productive. Concrete evidence, is the claim, | :24:07. | :24:17. | |
Ambassador. No, I beg to differ. I do not think so. If you will let us | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
look to the situation in Egypt now, this is what we had during our | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
meetings here in the House of Commons and the House of Lords. | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
Everybody is praising the fact that Egypt now is on the way to having a | :24:33. | :24:39. | |
stable country. To have law and order inside the country. Yes, we | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
have some terrorist attacks here and there, especially in Sinai, but I | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
think the Army and police, they are capable to tackle these issues. It | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
will take some time. And don't forget, a lot of infiltrations | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
happen after the revolution of January the 25th. So Sinai is a safe | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
haven for many terrorists from different countries. And different | :25:08. | :25:15. | |
factions. The ramifications of that still being felt today. Let me go to | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
somebody with less of a vested interest than my other guests. Could | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
you tell me how easy it is to get a clear picture of what is in Sinai? | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
It is quite difficult to get a clear picture of what is happening in | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
Sinai. There has been a ban on reporting from Sinai so it is very | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
difficult to get concrete information. But it is also very | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
difficult to jump into the kind of claims being made and I suspect the | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
truth is fall somewhere in the middle. It is difficult to say the | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
current policies are going to read to radicalisation but it would be | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
very foolish to discount the fact they could be. So I honestly think | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
the best thing to do, the only thing to do is to say it is very possible | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
they could be contributing to this. Although in the fact of the province | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
of Sinai which was formed in about 2011, they predate the current | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
revulsion and they started in 2011 -- revolution. They did mostly | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
attack Israel until President more sleep when they switched their | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
attention to security personnel -- resident more sleep. How feasible is | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
it for a territory like Sharm el-Sheikh to remain safe for | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
visitors? It depends where you are. In the province of Sinai, they | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
operate mostly in North Sinai and most tourism happens in the cell. | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
But if you are talking about a terrorist strike, it could happen | :26:51. | :26:56. | |
anywhere. You do not have to be standing in the middle of North | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
Sinai fulsome thing to happen, it could happen anywhere. It is going | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
to be difficult to get the Egyptian government to sit down and say, we | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
are going to stop battling Isis because that is a serious security | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
situation. On the other hand, the Egyptian government has mostly been | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
in reactive most -- to mud for the last 4.5 years so I do not know | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
there is a long-term plan. -- reactive mud. Would you fly there | :27:24. | :27:30. | |
tomorrow? I am flying in a couple of weeks so yes. I am an Egyptian, so | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
it is home, so I fly there all the time and I am not the best person to | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
answer! I have never found myself in a situation before where one studio | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
guest has been sentenced to death and a regime of which another studio | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
guest is a member. Are you comfortable with that? No, of course | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
not. She is Egyptian and I guess she is able of course to refuse and try | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
to refuse that judgment, that verdict. She comes back, I guess she | :28:01. | :28:07. | |
will face a fair trial. And now we will have a new Parliament. This | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
Parliament will have a human rights committee which will defend these | :28:13. | :28:21. | |
people and that is why... Would you go back to a country that had passed | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
a sentence of death on you? I do not know why she had this kind of | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
verdict. What kind of crime she did, I do not know your case. If you do | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
not know about the case where President Morsi has also been | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
sentenced to death, let us not speak about that. What do you think is a | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
member of Parliament about overall 170 Members of Parliament who were | :28:46. | :28:52. | |
elected in the previous first critically elected Parliament after | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
the revolution, what do you say about 170 of them now in jail? At | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
least three of them have died inside because of the lack of medical care. | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
Do you think that is acceptable, as somebody who is representing the | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
so-called elected Parliament? Yes, I guess everybody knows they face a | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
fair trial and we cannot just say something against our judicial | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
system in Egypt. Those people, they face a fair trial and everybody | :29:23. | :29:30. | |
knows that in Egypt. The problem that... We are looking always to | :29:31. | :29:40. | |
govern you to kill you. The people of Egypt refuse this kind of manner | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
and they went out to the streets on June 30 and the Army supported this | :29:47. | :29:55. | |
kind of action. But we are looking to her and other Egyptian citizens | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
and they should be subject to a fair trial and they should get their own | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
rates immediately. This is not something to dispute. She is an | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
absentee, I guess, that is why she got this maximum sentence, I guess. | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
This is my feeling. But I do not know exactly what happened. How | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
about, over 1,000 people have even handed down a death penalty in a | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
matter of hours? Without a single bit of evidence. | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
Many were involved in many kind of crimes. We are lifting the lid on | :30:29. | :30:35. | |
issues to, located to explore in the current context. Ambassador, many | :30:36. | :30:36. | |
thanks. Thank you. More than half | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
of UK graduates are in jobs not deemed to demand a degree, | :30:43. | :30:44. | |
according to research published this summer by the Chartered Institute | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
of Personnel and Development. Yesterday, meanwhile, students took | :30:48. | :30:49. | |
to the streets of London to protest, amongst other things, | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
about the ever-increasing debts they An interesting time, then, for the | :30:55. | :30:55. | |
new-ish Minister for Universities and Science to unveil a green paper | :30:56. | :31:02. | |
designed to increase student numbers But that's what Jo Johnson | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
will do tomorrow. This is how the Robins Report, | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
which called for the great expansion Well, not surprisingly | :31:10. | :31:18. | |
the report that says an educational The report gives a blunt warning | :31:19. | :31:27. | |
that if the government doesn't do the right things immediately, | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
future educational plans will be Tomorrow, Jo Johnson, | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
the universities minister, He proposes to increase student | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
choice by making it easier for new colleges and universities, including | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
profit-making ones, to set up This follows on from | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
the coalition's plans and there's a I greatly welcome | :31:52. | :31:59. | |
the proposal that we create a lot more new universities | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
because into those you can get a shake-up of tradition and try out | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
new ideas which is the only way we The so-called alternative sector is | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
already quite big Including maintenance grants, around | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
53,000 people got loans for courses at alternative providers in 2013, | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
up from 6,500 students in 2010. Some | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
of these colleges are rather grand. Keep an eye out though, | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
other colleges have offered poor courses and may even have been used | :32:32. | :32:34. | |
for loan fraud. This green paper isn't all | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
a continuation of coalition policy. Before 2015 it had been assumed | :32:40. | :32:41. | |
students acting on their own as consumers would drive up | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
teaching quality. The Office for Fair Access which | :32:45. | :32:45. | |
monitors admissions and the Funding Council for England, which deals | :32:46. | :32:55. | |
with the cash, they will be replaced It will do the work | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
of its predecessors but combine it with a focus of students' needs | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
and teaching quality. The intention is that this | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
regulator, alongside student demands Universities that the Office for | :33:09. | :33:10. | |
Students considers to offer good teaching, will be allowed to raise | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
their fees in line with inflation. This isn't quite the Robins report, | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
but it's still a very significant A little earlier, I spoke to Jo | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
Johnson, the Universities Minister. I asked him why we needed all | :33:26. | :33:33. | |
these new private universities. Well, we have | :33:34. | :33:40. | |
a great higher education sector in this country and we want there to | :33:41. | :33:42. | |
be more competition so there is Consumers benefit in any market | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
from competition because it puts providers under pressure to continue | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
to lift the quality Universities are no different | :33:52. | :33:53. | |
in that respect. We want to make it easier for new | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
entrants to come into the higher education market and offer wider | :33:59. | :34:01. | |
choice of provision so more students There were reports that people | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
educated to degree level, graduates, were not finding work that was | :34:06. | :34:15. | |
traditionally graduate-level So you could be perhaps creating | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
more candidates with qualifications while the jobs that demand | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
the qualifications are stagnant? There is a need from employers | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
and our economy to have more These are the jobs which are | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
powering growth in our economy. We need skilled employees | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
to power our growth. But, there are too many cases, | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
unfortunately, where employers are finding | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
graduates coming out of universities that don't have the skills they need | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
and there is a skills shortage That's precisely why we are today | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
bringing forward these proposals to reform higher education, | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
so it delivers more value So that it drives up the quality | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
of teaching, so that students benefit and | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
employers get the graduate with the So how will the new proposals | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
prevent a repetition of, for example, the London School of | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
Science and Technology, which the Guardian investigated last year with | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
some undercover filming which found some students saying, if you want to | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
take the student loan money and not come in, they are getting | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
paid so they don't give a... Well I can't repeat the word | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
the student used, we will say "hoot" for the purposes of this exchange, | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
how can we be sure we won't see We have a quality assurance | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
regime which is robust and catches Attendance is a criteria | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
and is closely scrutinised by the Quality Assurance Agency and that | :35:39. | :35:45. | |
is then taken into account by the Home Office when looking | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
whether to renew, or not, a university's license to bring | :35:51. | :35:52. | |
in international students. 20% of students registered in these | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
places are not even turning up. 50% of some EU students aren't even | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
eligible for the degree they're signed up to | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
get at the end of the course. And that's the kind of abuse the | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
Home Secretary and the Department of Business have been driving out | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
in the system so we have a higher education sector that is genuinely | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
offering great education to people Would you send your children | :36:15. | :36:16. | |
to one of these colleges? Where there is high quality | :36:17. | :36:26. | |
education, we should be encouraging people to go to university, | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
it is a life-changing experience I am not sure | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
whether that is a yes or no? I'd love | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
my children to go to university, but These institutions are possibly | :36:40. | :36:41. | |
funded by private equity? There are lots of routes in life, | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
university is one route. You can choose apprenticeships, | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
you can choose many paths, University is one of a number | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
of possible routes. Where there is high quality | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
education, university can be completely life changing and on | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
average, people who go to university see lifetime earnings ?100,000 | :37:01. | :37:03. | |
greater than those who don't. The Home Secretary has told some | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
perhaps 240,000 non-EU students who perhaps would have | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
the qualifications you describe as desirable to industry, have to | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
go home as soon as they graduate. It doesn't seem to fit | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
in with your vision? We have a system | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
of higher education that is open. We have no limit on the number | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
of international students that can There is one | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
international student... But they get sent home at the end, | :37:29. | :37:35. | |
according to Theresa May's plans. International students have | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
the right to stay here and work in this country, provided they have | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
a graduate job to work in. Do they have to go home | :37:42. | :37:43. | |
and apply for the job? No, they have four months in | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
which to find a graduate job, which Most undergraduates are using | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
their time at university to think about the kinds of things they want | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
to do afterwards. They then have a further four months | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
after graduation in I mean, I understand your vision, | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
I just wonder how it becomes more And the Prime Minister, of course, | :38:01. | :38:09. | |
likes to talk a lot We're giving potentially | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
performance-enhancing education to international rivals, who will then | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
go home and compete against us. Well, we welcome international | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
students and I'm pleased that They are up 4% this year | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
on last year. China is sending more students | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
to Britain than ever before. There are some countries | :38:30. | :38:31. | |
which are seeing declines. I think we have a work regime | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
which is actually competitive and it enables students who are | :38:36. | :38:43. | |
capable of finding graduate work within four months to stay in this | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
country and continue their studies. Yours is a government dedicated to | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
the reduction of debt and yet we are putting stuff on the | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
balance sheet with student loans that could, by some accounts, see | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
a huge increase in the total owed. Can you rule out a toughening up | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
of repayment plans for the students Well, we are personally consulting | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
on changes to the student loan repayment scheme | :39:05. | :39:12. | |
and consultation is ongoing. It's important to remember the | :39:13. | :39:14. | |
context in which we live right now. We are addressing | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
our fiscal situation. We have a commitment to balance | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
our books by 2019/2020, and ensuring that our financial | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
support to our universities is on a sustainable footing, which is | :39:29. | :39:30. | |
an important part of that business of getting our public finances onto | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
a sustainable footing. So you're not pledging not | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
to freeze the threshold? As I said, we are consulting | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
on that mechanism. You can understand why some students | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
who have signed up for a financial loan under terms and conditions that | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
were established might feel a little aggrieved that the terms and | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
conditions then subsequently shift. We're waiting for the results | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
of your consultation. We are consulting | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
on that change right now. We will take the responses | :40:01. | :40:02. | |
into the consultation, of course, But you've got to remember | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
the context, which is that we need to balance our | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
books by 2019/2020, and ensuring that our universities are on | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
a sustainable footing and properly The Coalition Government, of course, | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
trebled tuition fees. What we are committing to is to say | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
that where universities are offering high-quality teaching, they will | :40:20. | :40:29. | |
in due course, in 2017/2018, be able to increase their fees only in line | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
with inflation, and inflation is But that is out commitment | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
so that our good universities that are offering high-quality teaching | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
don't see their revenues eroded Over the course of this Parliament | :40:46. | :40:47. | |
then, you can, as the Minister responsible, rule out any increase | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
in tuition fees, a higher threshold? What we are doing is proposing to | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
allow an increase in line only with inflation, | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
which is presently well under 1%. What we are proposing today is to | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
only allow increases in line with | :41:09. | :41:15. |