05/11/2015 Newsnight


The Egypt plane crash, President Sisi's visit to the UK, airport security and the government's announcement of major changes to Higher Education.

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Flights to the UK from the stricken resort of Sharm el-Sheik will resume


tomorrow, following the government's decision last night to suspend them.


But has the diplomatic damage already been done?


It made for an awkward press conference this


afternoon between David Cameron and the visiting President Sisi.


Has the Prime Minister embarrassed his guest?


We'll ask the former Egyptian Foreign Minister.


British officials raised concerns last year about the lax security in


Sharm el-Sheikh and Cairo. One man's experience at Sharm


el-Sheik airport may indicate why. We put the main suitcase onto the


conveyor, checked the passports. Then went to the gate ready to board


the plane and at no point did we And it's been called the most


disruptive change to higher education for 20 years - a new green


paper is published tomorrow on the We'll speak to the Universities


Minister, Jo Johnston. As speculation about what caused it


continues, the British Government's response to Saturday's air crash in


Egypt has cast a diplomatic shadow over the state visit of Egyptian


President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi. He claims that British concerns


about safety at Sharm el-Sheikh airport, whence the doomed flight


embarked for Moscow before breaking up over the Sinai Peninsula, killing


all 224 people on board, were addressed ten months ago to


the satisfaction of British Whitehall sources have told this


programme they feared the situation had slipped back in recent months.


Thousands of British tourists will fly back from Sharm el-Sheikh


without the luggage tomorrow after David Cameron gave the go-ahead for


air travel to resume. The Prime Minister's position also


appears to have irked Russian president, Vladimir Putin,


who contended during a phone call between the two men today, that


countries should have waited for crash investigations to be completed


before issuing any no-fly orders. Newsnight's diplomatic editor


Mark Urban reports. With Egyptian exiles still angry


about the way the army crushed the Muslim Brotherhood, this visit could


easily have been dominated by discussion of human rights. The


aircraft tragedy redefined everything and President Sisi was on


the offensive today, pointing out Britain had checked out Sharm


el-Sheikh's security earlier this year.


TRANSLATION: Ten months ago, we were asked by our British friends to send


teams to Sharm el-Sheikh airport to make sure all the security


procedures there are well enough and provide the adequate safety and


security for the passengers. And we understood their concern because we


are interested in the safety and security of our nationals. The


British experts, the President insisted had left satisfied. So


while a further British team has re-examined security precautions at


the airport, thousands of holiday-makers have been waiting to


come home. Their journeys will resume with hand luggage only


tomorrow. What caused Britain to stop, but wasn't serious enough to


require major changes at this airport, or holds some other


countries from carrying on flying? The government has cited secret


intelligence to explain its decision, but such information


rarely offers absolute certainty. That is why now, just as in June


following the attack in Tunisia, some other governments are not


matching Britain's advice to citizens to leave immediately. What


one can conclude from all this? Mainly the British are far less


willing to take risks in these situations. I act on the basis of


intelligence I receive. I act on the basis of advice that I get. Of


course, I cannot be sure, my experts cannot be sure that it was a


terrorist bomb that brought down by Russian plane. If the intelligence


is and the judgment is, that is more likely than not outcome, I think it


is right to act in the way that I did. Sharm el-Sheikh security has


been breached before. For example, with a wave of suicide bombings ten


years ago. Egypt's responded by creating a large security zone


around the resort. But in the past double macro years, fighting with


Islamic militants further north has spread, making much of the Peninsula


area and raising questions again about the resort's safety. I think


the Egyptian authorities found themselves in a situation where they


constantly try to make the case Egypt is engaged in a war on terror


and the international security should support it or back it up.


When questions are raised about civil rights abuses of human rights


violations, they ought to remember they take place against the backdrop


of war on terror. At the same time, pushing Egypt as a tourism


destination, where things are fine and the country is very safe and


this people ought to come. It is difficult to square that circle, to


have those two narratives in play at the same time. Central to the past


few days has been the intelligence gathered by agencies like GCHQ and


its interpretation. Tonight, an American official contradict did the


British government saying Britain has a much lower threshold in react


to chatter and America's assessment as to whether it was a bomb hasn't


been changed by recent intelligence. In a moment,


we will be hearing from a member of President Sisi's delegation here


in London, but first, let's get perspectives from Gabriel Gatehouse


in Moscow and Lyse Doucet in Cairo. Gabriel, what have the Russians been


saying today in response to these claims by Britain? The Russians are


very much trying to pour cold water on any suggestion it was an act of


terrorism. Russia's head of aviation suggested the British might have


been indulging in fantasies. He says they would follow the fax and the


best and would take several months. My colleagues here managed to speak


to a spokesman for the Foreign Ministry, who said she was shocked


and surprised to realised the UK might be in possession that could


shed light on this and suggested the UK might be following certain aims


by not sharing that information. The big unspoken fear, of course, this


attack was some sort of retaliation for Russia's involvement in Syria. I


asked the Kremlin spokesman, if that turned out to be the case would it


affect Russia's actions in Syria? He said bluntly, this situation has


nothing to do with Syria. So it is an unspoken fear, as well as


metaphorically for the public. What is the mood in Moscow? It is one of


the biggest air disasters in Russian history, are the citizens not asking


questions about the Syrian connection? It is the biggest air


disaster in Russia's history. The citizens on social media are asking


these questions, but extraordinarily, in the papers you


will see almost no discussion of this. I read a 2000 word article


today which discussed airline safety, the age of aircraft, whether


foreign aircraft should be allowed to be used in Russia. Not a mention


of the theory this might be brought down by a bomb. It may be, as one


newspaper suggested, the British press is a little bit hysterical,


more dramatic than the Russian press. But there is something else


at work. For the first month at the Russia's intervention in Syria, it


was broadcast daily on the television. It was almost Hollywood


standards with drone footage set to music, showing Russia as the strong


force that is tackling Islamic extremism, Islamic terrorism. All of


that has been pushed to the back now. I think there really is an


nervousness here, that if this does turn out to be some sort of revenge


attack for Russia's involvement in Syria, opinion here will shift, not


only for their support for their actions in Syria, but also for


support for President Putin and the Kremlin itself. It was supposed to


be something of a show these visit for the Egyptian president, it is


not turning out verse. How much damage as this cause diplomatically


away from the television cameras? It was always going to be a visit with


sensitivities, but the sensitivities shifted to another level. It is


undeniable the developments over the investigation into the Russian


airliner have damaged, in a certain degree, the relationship between


Britain and Egypt. As one of the senior members of President CC's


delegation said to me, it is supposed to be a partnership. You


have to look at both sides. David Cameron has to come out and put the


interests of the dish tourists first, but he said what about our


tourism industry, the millions who depend upon it? Why didn't they show


an understanding that we should have come to an agreement before the


statement came out as to what could be done? I understand after


residents CC's delegation arrived in London, there were hours of


discussion back and forth from others from the delegation to try to


come to some understanding. The Egyptians said, couldn't there be an


announcement of a suspension of flights for 24 hours. The British


said it wasn't enough, there are 20,000 tourists and we need to be


clear. I understand it was the Prime Minister who said, we have asked the


Egyptians to take a certain amount of steps. Egyptians said they have


carried them out, it wasn't good enough for Britain and they decided


to take the dramatic announcement. Britain would have liked David


Cameron and President Sisi to come out and announced this is our joint


plan of action. The Egyptians said, no. I pushed back and said we simply


cannot make up political statement. We need to discuss the technical


side and the implementation. We're not going do it. There was a strain,


but it has to be underlined, both countries know, both governments


know, there is too much at stake and they have to work together. As one


member of the British government said to me, all of this has touched


some very raw nerves on the Egyptian side and it will be raw for some


time. Thank you both very much. Mohammed al-Orabi is in the UK as


part of President Sisi's delegation. He's a former Foreign Minister


of Egypt. When did President Sisi find out


what David Cameron was planning to do because we heard the announcement


of the cessation of flights while the delegation was in the air? I


don't ring so. My information is saying President Sisi received a


telephone call from the Prime Minister of written, David Cameron,


the day before his departure to the UK. We don't know the content of


this telephone call. But I guess as the two leaders had information,


exchanged information on that regards, and I think President Sisi


was determined to fulfil the visit and to come and argue, to listen and


give also his points of view to the British government and try to solve


the matter. To be clear, you think he flew here in the knowledge are


Prime Minister was about to effectively ban flights from Cairo


and Sharm el-Sheikh? No, the decision was taken yesterday evening


from the British side. The David Cameron told our president there is


some information about a certain case. Has he shared that


intelligence? I am not sure. How come the president is coming here


today and he received a telephone call from the British Prime Minister


and I think they had a discussion about this matter. It has been a


little embarrassing for the delegation to arrive in a country as


backcountry's leader and answers to the people who live here they are


not safe to fly to your country? It is not an embarrassment, but in this


kind of relationship between two friendly countries, I guess we are


open to receive some criticism every now and again. Also you had the


patience to listen to us and to listen about our worries on


different issues. We had many confrontations during the


discussion, many issues on the Middle East. You know, we are living


in a volatile region. Egypt's is sitting in a turbulent sea. Due to


the wisdom of the president, I think we managed to overcome these


difficulties for the last, I would say 17 or 18 months. You describe it


as a turbulent region and we have two UK aviation experts who flew in


yesterday and have apparently informed the Prime Minister, it's


not safe. You cannot guarantee the security of British tourists at all,


by the sounds of it? I don't think this is the absolute judgment. Egypt


is always open for security delegations from European countries


to check the measurements of security at airports of Egypt's, not


just Cairo and Sharm el-Sheikh, but other regions. We didn't receive any


observations whatsoever for the last ten months. Including the British


side. So, it was a bad incident to have this kind of accident and we


are so sorry the Russians lost their lives in this accident. We also


appreciate any efforts exerted by any government to guarantee the


safety of their citizens. We really appreciate what David Cameron took


to maintain the security of the British people. We're not against


that, but the thing, I think is premature. By our government? You


think David Cameron move to early? Too early, we didn't check out the


black box of this plane. You have seen our report this evening and I


spoke to a woman who flew back on Saturday and her son walk through


the baggage check without having a 2 litre bottle of liquid notice. We


heard from one tourist who didn't even have his bags checked at all.


It paints a very ugly picture and to describe the Prime Minister's


caution as premature seems perhaps a little disingenuous? Haps, but the


basics of his decision on information suggesting it was an


explosive device on the plane, that was the statement by your government


and by the Americans. The Americans may be tracking back slightly from


that position, but you have no knowledge or understanding of


decisively where David Cameron got the idea that it was increasingly


likely, which I think was his phrase? We don't know from what


source he had this information. You began by portraying the visit as


cordial and successful? It was. Despite not knowing why the Prime


Minister has effectively banned people?


In the meantime, as your correspondence from Cairo said,


British tourism is 1.5% of our GDP. It is a great loss. I look forward


to hearing more from you, Ambassador.


Whatever conclusions the investigations arrive at and


whatever transpires politically, it's clear that airport security has


Newsnight has learned that improvements implemented at Sharm


el-Sheikh airport, in response to British concerns just


under a year ago, were feared by officials to have


According to Whitehall sources, there were particular issues with


baggage handling and access to restricted areas.


Newsnight's Nick Hopkins has been investigating the claims


and examining the broader question of whether airports can ever be


If it was a bomb that brought down Metrojet flight 628,


the question is, how did it get through Sharm el-Sheikh airport?


As passengers prepare to fly out tomorrow, stories emerged today


Claims of guards nodding off and playing Candy Crush on their phones.


An official asked for ?20 in Stirling to jump the queue.


We literally avoided the whole queue, we went right to the front.


And then we put the main suitcase onto the conveyor, we checked the


passports. We then went to the checkout, to the gate, ready to


board the plane, and at no point did we have our bags or our person


checked and only then did we realise the magnitude of what had happened.


President Sese conceded Britain had checked security at Sharm el-Sheikh


this year. -- President Sisi. As things improved, officials feared


the situation had slipped again in recent months.


There was on ongoing programme to help Egyptians in any way we could


to improve security and we worked very well together, they were


extremely appreciative. Egypt was very grateful. These decisions are


not taken lightly at all and the history of the entire system in


Whitehall has looked at security in Egypt over the last years and the


premise is already taken a direct interest in cell. Leaves me in no


doubt this is a very heavily considered decision and in my view,


it must be well founded. The Army at Heathrow, after 9/11,


airport security was transformed, liquids were banned and shoes were


x-rayed. Queues were ever longer. But some experts say it is not fair


to single out Sharm el-Sheikh. I actually do not think that


security at that airport is necessarily worse than at many other


airports around the world and it is very easy with hindsight to focus


all our attentions on that one location when we know that there are


huge limitations to the security systems around the world. Not only


in the Middle East, not only in Africa, but even in the Western


world. In June this year in America. Under


-- undercover agents from homeland security but screeners to the test


at dozens of the nation's begin -- busiest airports and they failed


miserably. The scams fails to pick up in 67 out of 17 tests guns.


Security experts have told others security at Sharm el-Sheikh can be


poor but maybe not for the reasons you might imagine. They describe a


culture of deference from airport security staff towards travellers


which means that some people do not get checked and challenged. It is


equally possible that if this was a bomb, it was an inside job. The


official report could take months and the controversy is unlikely to


The Sinai Peninsula, the eastern part of Egypt that joins


the country to Israel, is the home of Sinai Province, the IS affiliated


militant group who claim to have downed the Russian airliner.


Here to explore who they are, and how the Egyptian authorities have


Part of the Egyptian presidential delegation, Mohammed al-Orabi. This


woman is living in exile after being sentenced to death under the current


government. And from the USA... I will begin with you. Have the


policies of President Sisi had an effect upon terrorist activities or


encountering extremism? I think a heavy-handed security approach in


Sinai and elsewhere in Egypt has proven to be a failure. And quoting


President Sisi himself before the military coup of 2013 when he was


addressing the Army, he himself said that a heavy-handed security


approach in Sinai would backfire. And it would turn Sinai into a


would-be South Sudan. And this is probably, he forgot about that. And


I think the current policies, they are precisely contributing to this


scenario. Tell me about those policies, what you mean by


heavy-handed? What I mean is a misguided security approach in


Sinai. As a recent report by humans rights watch suggests the current


the current policies in Sinai target civilians -- Human Rights Watch.


They displace thousands of civilians, at least 10,000 civilians


have been displaced from their homes which were demolished by the


military of Mr Sisi. And at the same time, we can see the continuing rise


of militant insurgency in Sinai and even in the heart of Cairo we have


seen bombings carried out for which Isis has claimed responsibility. So


we see concrete evidence that the current security policy of the


regime is counter-productive. Concrete evidence, is the claim,


Ambassador. No, I beg to differ. I do not think so. If you will let us


look to the situation in Egypt now, this is what we had during our


meetings here in the House of Commons and the House of Lords.


Everybody is praising the fact that Egypt now is on the way to having a


stable country. To have law and order inside the country. Yes, we


have some terrorist attacks here and there, especially in Sinai, but I


think the Army and police, they are capable to tackle these issues. It


will take some time. And don't forget, a lot of infiltrations


happen after the revolution of January the 25th. So Sinai is a safe


haven for many terrorists from different countries. And different


factions. The ramifications of that still being felt today. Let me go to


somebody with less of a vested interest than my other guests. Could


you tell me how easy it is to get a clear picture of what is in Sinai?


It is quite difficult to get a clear picture of what is happening in


Sinai. There has been a ban on reporting from Sinai so it is very


difficult to get concrete information. But it is also very


difficult to jump into the kind of claims being made and I suspect the


truth is fall somewhere in the middle. It is difficult to say the


current policies are going to read to radicalisation but it would be


very foolish to discount the fact they could be. So I honestly think


the best thing to do, the only thing to do is to say it is very possible


they could be contributing to this. Although in the fact of the province


of Sinai which was formed in about 2011, they predate the current


revulsion and they started in 2011 -- revolution. They did mostly


attack Israel until President more sleep when they switched their


attention to security personnel -- resident more sleep. How feasible is


it for a territory like Sharm el-Sheikh to remain safe for


visitors? It depends where you are. In the province of Sinai, they


operate mostly in North Sinai and most tourism happens in the cell.


But if you are talking about a terrorist strike, it could happen


anywhere. You do not have to be standing in the middle of North


Sinai fulsome thing to happen, it could happen anywhere. It is going


to be difficult to get the Egyptian government to sit down and say, we


are going to stop battling Isis because that is a serious security


situation. On the other hand, the Egyptian government has mostly been


in reactive most -- to mud for the last 4.5 years so I do not know


there is a long-term plan. -- reactive mud. Would you fly there


tomorrow? I am flying in a couple of weeks so yes. I am an Egyptian, so


it is home, so I fly there all the time and I am not the best person to


answer! I have never found myself in a situation before where one studio


guest has been sentenced to death and a regime of which another studio


guest is a member. Are you comfortable with that? No, of course


not. She is Egyptian and I guess she is able of course to refuse and try


to refuse that judgment, that verdict. She comes back, I guess she


will face a fair trial. And now we will have a new Parliament. This


Parliament will have a human rights committee which will defend these


people and that is why... Would you go back to a country that had passed


a sentence of death on you? I do not know why she had this kind of


verdict. What kind of crime she did, I do not know your case. If you do


not know about the case where President Morsi has also been


sentenced to death, let us not speak about that. What do you think is a


member of Parliament about overall 170 Members of Parliament who were


elected in the previous first critically elected Parliament after


the revolution, what do you say about 170 of them now in jail? At


least three of them have died inside because of the lack of medical care.


Do you think that is acceptable, as somebody who is representing the


so-called elected Parliament? Yes, I guess everybody knows they face a


fair trial and we cannot just say something against our judicial


system in Egypt. Those people, they face a fair trial and everybody


knows that in Egypt. The problem that... We are looking always to


govern you to kill you. The people of Egypt refuse this kind of manner


and they went out to the streets on June 30 and the Army supported this


kind of action. But we are looking to her and other Egyptian citizens


and they should be subject to a fair trial and they should get their own


rates immediately. This is not something to dispute. She is an


absentee, I guess, that is why she got this maximum sentence, I guess.


This is my feeling. But I do not know exactly what happened. How


about, over 1,000 people have even handed down a death penalty in a


matter of hours? Without a single bit of evidence.


Many were involved in many kind of crimes. We are lifting the lid on


issues to, located to explore in the current context. Ambassador, many


thanks. Thank you. More than half


of UK graduates are in jobs not deemed to demand a degree,


according to research published this summer by the Chartered Institute


of Personnel and Development. Yesterday, meanwhile, students took


to the streets of London to protest, amongst other things,


about the ever-increasing debts they An interesting time, then, for the


new-ish Minister for Universities and Science to unveil a green paper


designed to increase student numbers But that's what Jo Johnson


will do tomorrow. This is how the Robins Report,


which called for the great expansion Well, not surprisingly


the report that says an educational The report gives a blunt warning


that if the government doesn't do the right things immediately,


future educational plans will be Tomorrow, Jo Johnson,


the universities minister, He proposes to increase student


choice by making it easier for new colleges and universities, including


profit-making ones, to set up This follows on from


the coalition's plans and there's a I greatly welcome


the proposal that we create a lot more new universities


because into those you can get a shake-up of tradition and try out


new ideas which is the only way we The so-called alternative sector is


already quite big Including maintenance grants, around


53,000 people got loans for courses at alternative providers in 2013,


up from 6,500 students in 2010. Some


of these colleges are rather grand. Keep an eye out though,


other colleges have offered poor courses and may even have been used


for loan fraud. This green paper isn't all


a continuation of coalition policy. Before 2015 it had been assumed


students acting on their own as consumers would drive up


teaching quality. The Office for Fair Access which


monitors admissions and the Funding Council for England, which deals


with the cash, they will be replaced It will do the work


of its predecessors but combine it with a focus of students' needs


and teaching quality. The intention is that this


regulator, alongside student demands Universities that the Office for


Students considers to offer good teaching, will be allowed to raise


their fees in line with inflation. This isn't quite the Robins report,


but it's still a very significant A little earlier, I spoke to Jo


Johnson, the Universities Minister. I asked him why we needed all


these new private universities. Well, we have


a great higher education sector in this country and we want there to


be more competition so there is Consumers benefit in any market


from competition because it puts providers under pressure to continue


to lift the quality Universities are no different


in that respect. We want to make it easier for new


entrants to come into the higher education market and offer wider


choice of provision so more students There were reports that people


educated to degree level, graduates, were not finding work that was


traditionally graduate-level So you could be perhaps creating


more candidates with qualifications while the jobs that demand


the qualifications are stagnant? There is a need from employers


and our economy to have more These are the jobs which are


powering growth in our economy. We need skilled employees


to power our growth. But, there are too many cases,


unfortunately, where employers are finding


graduates coming out of universities that don't have the skills they need


and there is a skills shortage That's precisely why we are today


bringing forward these proposals to reform higher education,


so it delivers more value So that it drives up the quality


of teaching, so that students benefit and


employers get the graduate with the So how will the new proposals


prevent a repetition of, for example, the London School of


Science and Technology, which the Guardian investigated last year with


some undercover filming which found some students saying, if you want to


take the student loan money and not come in, they are getting


paid so they don't give a... Well I can't repeat the word


the student used, we will say "hoot" for the purposes of this exchange,


how can we be sure we won't see We have a quality assurance


regime which is robust and catches Attendance is a criteria


and is closely scrutinised by the Quality Assurance Agency and that


is then taken into account by the Home Office when looking


whether to renew, or not, a university's license to bring


in international students. 20% of students registered in these


places are not even turning up. 50% of some EU students aren't even


eligible for the degree they're signed up to


get at the end of the course. And that's the kind of abuse the


Home Secretary and the Department of Business have been driving out


in the system so we have a higher education sector that is genuinely


offering great education to people Would you send your children


to one of these colleges? Where there is high quality


education, we should be encouraging people to go to university,


it is a life-changing experience I am not sure


whether that is a yes or no? I'd love


my children to go to university, but These institutions are possibly


funded by private equity? There are lots of routes in life,


university is one route. You can choose apprenticeships,


you can choose many paths, University is one of a number


of possible routes. Where there is high quality


education, university can be completely life changing and on


average, people who go to university see lifetime earnings ?100,000


greater than those who don't. The Home Secretary has told some


perhaps 240,000 non-EU students who perhaps would have


the qualifications you describe as desirable to industry, have to


go home as soon as they graduate. It doesn't seem to fit


in with your vision? We have a system


of higher education that is open. We have no limit on the number


of international students that can There is one


international student... But they get sent home at the end,


according to Theresa May's plans. International students have


the right to stay here and work in this country, provided they have


a graduate job to work in. Do they have to go home


and apply for the job? No, they have four months in


which to find a graduate job, which Most undergraduates are using


their time at university to think about the kinds of things they want


to do afterwards. They then have a further four months


after graduation in I mean, I understand your vision,


I just wonder how it becomes more And the Prime Minister, of course,


likes to talk a lot We're giving potentially


performance-enhancing education to international rivals, who will then


go home and compete against us. Well, we welcome international


students and I'm pleased that They are up 4% this year


on last year. China is sending more students


to Britain than ever before. There are some countries


which are seeing declines. I think we have a work regime


which is actually competitive and it enables students who are


capable of finding graduate work within four months to stay in this


country and continue their studies. Yours is a government dedicated to


the reduction of debt and yet we are putting stuff on the


balance sheet with student loans that could, by some accounts, see


a huge increase in the total owed. Can you rule out a toughening up


of repayment plans for the students Well, we are personally consulting


on changes to the student loan repayment scheme


and consultation is ongoing. It's important to remember the


context in which we live right now. We are addressing


our fiscal situation. We have a commitment to balance


our books by 2019/2020, and ensuring that our financial


support to our universities is on a sustainable footing, which is


an important part of that business of getting our public finances onto


a sustainable footing. So you're not pledging not


to freeze the threshold? As I said, we are consulting


on that mechanism. You can understand why some students


who have signed up for a financial loan under terms and conditions that


were established might feel a little aggrieved that the terms and


conditions then subsequently shift. We're waiting for the results


of your consultation. We are consulting


on that change right now. We will take the responses


into the consultation, of course, But you've got to remember


the context, which is that we need to balance our


books by 2019/2020, and ensuring that our universities are on


a sustainable footing and properly The Coalition Government, of course,


trebled tuition fees. What we are committing to is to say


that where universities are offering high-quality teaching, they will


in due course, in 2017/2018, be able to increase their fees only in line


with inflation, and inflation is But that is out commitment


so that our good universities that are offering high-quality teaching


don't see their revenues eroded Over the course of this Parliament


then, you can, as the Minister responsible, rule out any increase


in tuition fees, a higher threshold? What we are doing is proposing to


allow an increase in line only with inflation,


which is presently well under 1%. What we are proposing today is to


only allow increases in line with


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