17/11/2015 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.

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Nervousness in Hannover, with the cancellation of the Germany


And in Paris, scene of Friday's atrocity, a manhunt goes on.


Police revealed the night they are looking for a ninth suspected


attacker who may have survived. Rates continue and society is


showing growing signs of strain. -- the raids continue.


We'll be asking what Paris means for Syria.


Does the government's longstanding desire to get Britain more


And with the debate over the potential


for Syrian terrorists to come to Europe, we meet some of Syrian


One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten...


We'll go to Paris in a moment - but let's start in London.


Never has the result of a football match mattered less than


Football is tribal, sometimes unruly, occasionally ugly.


But with the game itself a victim on Friday,


the fans at the England v France game were not going to do anything


except express solidarity with Paris,


bringing more meaning to the name "friendly match" than ever before.


Here was the scene as the French national anthem was sung.


The scene was very different in Hannover tonight.


The friendly game between Germany and Holland was called off


German police said they had concrete information of an attack,


Evidently, there is still a lot to be nervous about.


And a lot has been happening in the investigation, too.


Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban is in Paris.


Evan, moving around Paris and its suburbs today,


we got a very distinct feeling that this crisis is far from over.


Just tonight, the police have revealed that they are looking for a


second on the run suspected attacker who survived.


Communities are being raided, even though their leaders have


condemned Friday's terror in the strongest terms.


And of course, there is a state of emergency


that's set to continue for at least three months.


Critically, there's a feeling that having been the victim of two major


terror attacks already this year, it could easily happen again.


The Eiffel Tower symbolises so much at this moment.


France may be proud and upright but here also,


you can see it is too early to talk about life returning to normal.


Australia today advised nationals to avoid Paris


but that did not deter the Cross family from the Gold Coast.


I think it's important to continue the holiday.


The city seems to be functioning within reason,


We feel safe. Police everywhere.


They were to be disappointed however, because this morning,


the tower did not reopen at the appointed hour.


That is just one sign of an enduring state of emergency


Combine Friday's tragedy with what happened here in January,


and the possibility of further attacks, and you have


We were expecting that the government would have taken measures


I mean, the people in the street were not expecting anything more.


To feel a kind of rehearsal of this nightmare makes people very


sad, first, very anxious and then very angry.


That anger and apprehension has fuelled hundreds of raids


Today, police said they had uncovered two safe houses and a


hotel room where they think suicide bomb belts had been assembled.


But not all operations have yielded positive results.


We heard that a mosque had been raided last night


Here, the police smashed their way in,


The place had been tidied up by the time we got there


but it is easy to see how emotions in the poor suburbs, or banlieues,


"Look", this man said, showing pictures of the damage.


"These are religious books, sacred. It pains me".


Surveying the banlieues, where the dozens of mosques he


oversees are located, Mohamed Hanniche worries about the pressure


So the Muslims in this business are going to pay twice over.


They will pay because their religion has been tarnished,


And they will pay in the months and years to come because there will


be a crisis of feelings and tension around the visibility of Islam.


The state of siege is hardly helped by the fact that at least one


of Friday's suspected attackers, Salah Abdeslam, is still at large.


Tonight, his brother appealed to him to turn himself in.


TRANSLATION: We are a family.


We are thinking of him. We are wondering where he is.


Is he afraid? Is he eating?


The best thing would be for him to turn himself in so justice can shed


In Aubervilliers and elsewhere in the banlieues, the manhunt goes on.


France has awoken to the dangers of having hundreds


The right is riding high in the polls, and many fear Europe more


Unfortunately, it is not only France.


It could be Britain, Spain, Germany, whatever.


I think we have to learn to live with, I think that we may...


Reach a level of Israeli society or something.


We have to get used to living with this risk.


I think it is something that our mind is not set but unfortunately,


Millions of French of all faiths are determined to deny the terrorists


their objective of breaking apart this society, and to escape the


But each successive attack will force people to draw a little more


We are going to discuss those issues now.


With me now is the Arab-French author and film maker Karim Miske


and Paris-based journalist Anne Elisabeth Moutet.


Can I ask you first, a lot of people talk about the difference in feeling


between after the Charlie Hebdo events in January and now. What do


you sense? Well, I sense that there is not the same rift in society.


After the Charlie Hebdo attacks, quite quickly, France was divided


quite quickly because a lot of Muslims had been offended by the


cartoons. Now it is different because everybody is hit, the whole


of French society suffers in the same way. Then there is also of


course this double bind because of public opinion and some politicians


or journalists are asking the Muslims to in a way condemn even


more than the others. But I think they do it the same way as other


French people. The effect of so many raids in the banlieues, can it go on


at this level? I guess it is too early to know. At the moment,


everyone is shocked. I don't know. It depends how long it lasts and it


depends if it is really focused, if there are real reasons for them to


raid these specific mosques or specific neighbourhoods or not. If


they are just randomly raiding such and such areas because they think


that there are a lot of practising Muslims there, it is not going to


work, definitely. A lot of speculation about the Front


National, will they benefit from this and what will we see in the


local elections coming up next month? Several things. We don't know


yet and as you have said, it is early days. The Front National, this


time, just like at the time of Charlie Hebdo, has been incredibly


tin eared. Their reaction was not in harmony with the rest of the


country. The show of unity in the country has been impressive and


Karim is right, we are seeing the faces of the people who died and


they were black, white, brown, women, men, mostly young and this is


the new French nation. Any diverging and shockingly different tone and


bitter, dividing attitude is something that does not work. Even


when Nicolas goes the criticised the policy, you may have had a point


that -- Nicolas Nkoulou C criticised the policy he may have had a point


but it jarred. We are electing powers to the 13 regions of France


and it is possible that one or two may go to the Front National which


is also a possibility before this happened. They are important in


terms of the French economic way of administering itself. In terms of


politics, they are mostly important as a life-size poll. It will be


interesting to see if the Front National games a lot. They are


really the only party where you can see a difference because these are


very local elections and I don't see Francois Hollande's very respectable


performance in dealing with this horrible crisis reflected in itself


on the ground, in the profited so much. How do you think, societally,


the bigger issue of so many returning jab this is, people who


have been involved in struggle, can be managed -- returning jihadists,


people have been involved in struggle, can be managed in a way


that does not open up wrists? It is going to be difficult and in France,


we began very late, if you compare it to Britain, Denmark or Germany,


to really address the question of jihad is -- jet had it,


radicalisation and so on. Why did France begin so late? Maybe because


we are very afraid of what we call... We don't want to deal with


communities. It is true they don't exactly exist in the same way as in


other countries but nevertheless, you want to do this kind of job, you


have to do it with the other communities, not against them.


Lastly, briefly, from each of you, do you recognise the term French


intifada that some writers have used or is it just type? I don't


recognise this, no. The intifada is really two nations struggling


against one another. This is a tiny proportion. It is absolutely not


relevant. This is a terrorist attack that targets France in a shock and


awe tactic. It has nothing to do with something that, however you


feel about it, is based on ground and to rain. I would say that these


people, even though they were French, were foreigners in their own


country and that is not the case with the intifada.


Back to football tonight, where we started the programme.


Now, there was a lot of rumour about the situation in Hannover


earlier this evening, and the reasons for cancelling


Let's talk to the BBC's Berlin correspondent Jenny Hill,


Just what happened? They did not apparently find any explosives,


despite rumours to the contrary. Quite. Just a few hours ago, there


was gridlock here, police officers everywhere, sirens going off,


flashing lights everywhere. The police president for Hannover said


there was a concrete threat, a concrete security threat against the


city of Hannover. Verdi 2000 fans had bought tickets for the game.


They were evacuated from the stadium and told by the police, not just


leave the stadium but the area, to go home and get out of town. --


32,000 fans. There has been two other securities gains in addition


in this city tonight. As you say, tonight the police say they have


made no arrests and found no explosives. The interior Minister


for Germany was due to watch the game along with members of the


German cabinet and the Chancellor. That is because this game was about


far more than just football. The German team, who of course


themselves were caught up in the Paris attacks on Friday, were


nervous about the game going ahead but agreed to participate, to let it


happen because they and a lot of the German people dealt it was important


to show solidarity and defiance in the face of international terrorism


but instead of watching the match, the interior minister ended up


giving a press conference right here a little earlier this evening. He


says he wants Germans to trust him when he says he received the kind of


intelligence which meant he felt there was no choice but to cancel


the game and evacuate the stadium. Briefly, is there a sense they were


being a bit jumpy and too cautious? Is everyone doing that, trusting him


and assuming there was good intelligence? Of course there are


questions about the proportionality of the response. But interestingly,


the interior minister said that he was not prepared to share the source


of the intelligence which led him to make his decision. There are


unconfirmed reports circulating in the German press which suggest that


intelligence may have come on France. We don't know that for


certain but if that is the case, perhaps the response was rather more


understandable. It cannot be over emphasised enough, Germany is


nervous at the highest levels of government. They are expecting a


terrorist atrocity. In the words of one minister Tom Germany is in the


cross hairs of international terrorism.


Well, football is global, it is multicultural and it is fun,


and it is evidently a target for jihadists who stand


Does this have consequences for the game?


One man who is surely having to give some thought to this is


Richard Scudamore, the chief executive of the Premier League.


I sat down to talk to him this afternoon.


A suicide bomber was stopped from getting


Could a violent incident be stopped if a bomber tried the same


Well, I think one has to hope that it would.


I think it's very difficult to say with absolute certainty that it


would because you have to rely on intelligence an awful lot.


You have to rely on a lot of the intelligence services an awful lot.


But yeah, we do have a situation where, you know, I am absolutely


certain everything is done that could possibly be done.


But we all live in a situation where you cannot


entirely rule out and legislate for these attacks of really just,


just terrible, despicable acts where people are prepared to blow


Do you think there will be more frisking of fans as they come in,


We have been on high alert at Premier League games


If you think we're going to be on extra high alert this coming


The club secretaries are all meeting tomorrow, there will be a discussion


There will be further guidance issued again over


the next coming days, before the games start at the weekend.


But ultimately, if somebody is absolutely, absolutely hell-bent -


and that is really the word - in terms of making something


terrible happen, you cannot entirely, entirely rule it out.


Richard Scudamore of the Premier League.


We had a long chat about football and the English Premier League and


Tonight though, the national game was the focus.


The friendly game between England and France ended in a 2-0 England


Despite the weather, it was an occasion for warmth.


It was almost like the Christmas truce - hostilities buried


The unified singing of the French national anthem was moving,


as was the minute's silence for those who lost their lives.


I'm joined by the former French and Premier League player, Louis Saha.


Good evening. You have got up very early in the morning. Do you


appreciate that football is a target of these jihadists, it is something


it represents that they find abhorrent and want to target? I


think so, it is one of the most popular games in the world. It has


such an effect on the press, just talking about the stadium in Paris,


Paris is such a lovely town and is loved by many people, many visitors.


So football is like a big symbol and to touch that was really hard. I


think it is not really important for sport, it is more the impact, the


disaster on families, children seeing horrible things. It was


touching to see the support of England. What were your feelings


when you heard about the events in Paris and especially the suicide


bombers at the start of France. I was scared, I had so many friends


who went to see the game. Just wanting to have a nice time and just


chilled with friends. You hear about bombs and Kalashnikov rifles and


horrible scenes in the street. It has an impact on everyone. I was


shocked and devastated. I know there could be people that I know and I


was really scared. So it had an impact on everyone. What does it


mean that English fans sang the French national anthem this


evening? It is huge. We know there is a special relationship, a history


between England and France. We can see from that special game, it was


very emotional. 70,000 people singing together the French national


anthem. It is emotional, it was really touching. I can only say


thank you and paid tribute to those people who really supported and


travelled, because it was not like someplace that you feel very safe.


Because of what happened in the Stade de France. They had the


courage to show they were against what happened, against terrorism or


top and this is the way forward. It would be nice if every country did


the same. Every country react the same. It could be Africa or other


countries. Thank you for joining us. It just


so happens that with questions being asked across the continent


about the wisdom of allowing Syrians into Europe, the largest group


of refugees that Britain has Now Britain has its own resettlement


programme, which is not aimed at those who make perilous journeys to


Europe, but at a smaller number who A plane of such people landed


in Glasgow today. Katie Razzall went to Jordan to meet


some of those who've now arrived, to see the process they've had to


go through to be accepted here. In Jordan were one fifth of the


population is now Syrian, for some it is a time of goodbye. After years


of waiting there are being resettled. Hundreds are travelling


from ear to the UK over the next month. -- from here.


Last week with our translator I met one family repairing for a life.


Approved by UNHCR as vulnerable as to meet with settlement, the UK


offered them sanctuary. The little ones looked ready to go. One two,


three, four, five, six... His father, a diabetic, died in Syria.


The children were taken in by their ant and uncle. There aged 18 and 20.


And there one more member of the family. And here is the head of the


family. What did you have to do to satisfy the requirements to be able


in the end to be resettled? What do you know about the UK?


Injured in the war and needing a hard operation, this man is deemed


an urgent vulnerable case. Your nephews are here. Why are they


with you, what happened to your brother?


For traumatised young boys football has offered some comfort. Now


they're bidding farewell to friends at the orphans charity that help the


family since they fled Syria in 2013.


Without the wages of the oldest family could not have survived. Like


85% of refugees in Jordan they do not live in camps but pay for


private rented accommodation. It is illegal for refugees to working


without a permit and he has been arrested three times. Impoverished


circumstances are another thing that UNHCR takes into account. Like many


families, theirs is complicated. Their mother was the first wife who


has since remarried with younger children. Yet another refugee family


living in Jordan. Now her eldest children are being resettled with


their father. Sometimes there are no words for good ride.


The family are thankful to the UK. They will be safe, they say, and


free to work and study. But it is a wrench to leave the country that


closely resembles their homeland and the tears flow easily.


You're going to the UK. You may never see Syria again. What memories


with you hold onto? -- will you.


Jordan has taken in so many Syrians. For a country the size it is the


equivalent of everyone from Greece moving to the UK in the space of two


years. Now some are leaving and buying codes for the Glaswegian


whether they have been warned about. UNHCR rates about one tenth of the


Syrian refugees as fulfilling the vulnerability criteria for


resettlement. I have covered the refugee crisis in Europe, where it


is not difficult to spot the people seeking a better life. Here in


Jordan the refugees are much more hidden. There are intermingled with


the population and living in a kind of limbo. There are just so many


vulnerable people here. I wonder how the authorities decide which of them


are vulnerable enough to be resettled. Newsnight has been given


exclusive access to the resettlement offers of UNHCR where the


assessments are made. Are you and your family interested in being


resettled? Yes. There are two kinds of interview going on behind the


stores. The initial interrogation when they get some details about why


they left Syria, and what their life is like in Jordan. Then a much more


lengthy, in-depth interrogation where they are questioned about why


they fled their country and of why there might be eligible for


resettlement. Since September when the images of


the little Syrian boy washed on the beach shocked the world, countries


like the UK have upped their resettlement numbers. There is a


target or quota offered by the UK, 500 people. By the end of the year


we will have slightly over 500 Syrian refugees who will leave for


the UK from Jordan. When you see torture, D1 tell us what was going


on. -- do you want to tell us. You are saying they poured spirit


onto the open wounds. So your family was alone at that


time. The UK carries out its own detailed security checks before


approving a refugee resettlement. Here at UNHCR they made every effort


to verify often harrowing accounts. It takes a toll on us. The fact that


you can talk to someone who has gone through something on a day-to-day


basis, we would consider to be horrible and horrendous. And they


smile at you at the end of the interview. That is what keeps you


going, but you can see a child who has gone through quite a bit and


they're here feel safe. They can run around and come and touch you and


say hello. That is what keeps us going. The Syrian family that we met


know they're lucky. Today they were aboard the charter flight of


vulnerable refugees heading to Glasgow. They had never been on a


plane before. Our family will not emerge through these does. The


British authorities have been clear, they want to keep the new arrivals


away from the cameras. That is understandable, they have a duty of


care towards these people and they are vulnerable. I cannot say I'm not


disappointed, I had hoped to be allowed to meet them, to be a


familiar face as they arrived in this new and strange land.


There is the first wave of up to 1000 Syrians who will arrive before


Christmas. The Glasgow weather must have been a shock. Newsnight hopes


to follow them and another family as they begin their new lives.


And good luck to them. Now,


events in Paris have ramifications One, they are focusing minds


on how to move forward politically, particularly if shared ground can


be found with the Russians. Two, events have focused minds


on what can be achieved militarily Let's face it, Britain's been


debating that anyway for months. But the argument gained


new energy today. Allegra Stratton has been


following it. A vote in 2003, that took us


into the Iraq War. This is the time for this House,


not just this government or indeed this Prime Minister,


but for this House to give a lead. And ten years later, a vote in 2013


that kept us out of a Syrian war. It is clear to me that the British


Parliament, reflecting the views of the British people, does not want


to see British military action. I get that, and the government


will act accordingly. Learning the right lessons


from these two votes determines whether or not Parliament gets


a third vote, a fresh look Recently, a committee


of MPs warned the Prime Minister Today, he said he would be


addressing their concerns directly. I will respond personally to the


report of the foreign affairs select committee. I will set out, read a


strategy for dealing with Isil, our vision for a more stable and


peaceful Middle East. This strategy, in my view, should include taking


the action in Syria I have spoken about. I hope that in setting up the


arguments in this way, I can help build support right across this


house for the action I believe is necessary to take. A lot has changed


since the vote in September 2013. Events in Paris over the weekend, of


course, but even before that, talks in Vienna suggesting the West and


Russia might after all be able to join forces and the suggestion of


compromise over the future role of President Assad. But for the


critical inner workings of this place, the Prime Minister's comments


to date may prove the most important in persuading Labour MPs. He


suggested he may be coming forward with a plan at the suggestion is it


will include political and military solutions. You can't do this job


from the air alone unless there is a credible ground Force, and I don't


mean just the Kurds, who are only a part of the picture. There has to be


a credible ground force which we are supporting with air power.


Otherwise, it is a pointless, futile and dangerous, empty gesture. Apart


from that, it's a great idea! I'm open-minded because I think there's


a threat that Isis poses, not just in Syria but to the security of the


UK and clearly to the security of our European neighbours as well, as


we saw, tragically on the streets of Paris on Friday. I think our


leadership should have a free vote on the issue, given the diversions


of view is that there clearly are. Jeremy Corbyn is still insisting he


will whip his MPs on the vote. David Cameron's great hope is that he can


prise away quite a number of them. But how many? If we can get to the


situation where it looks like Britain, as one, can come together,


I'm not asking for an overwhelming majority, a majority would be good


enough, to come forward and say it is right for us to take this action.


The inner workings of Parliament are shifting right now. BELL


Behind the scenes, the machinery of whipping the forthcoming Syrian vote


has started. I think the Prime Minister does not care if the Leader


of the Opposition votes against him as long as he gets a majority of


50-60. To get this, you would need to limit the Tory rebellion to


15-20, while persuading some 70 Labour rebels including some senior


figures like Yvette Cooper, a tricky task. And what of actual public


opinion? Since the summer of 2014, support for air strikes against Isil


in Syria has risen to 60% and stayed there, despite a toxic Iraq legacy,


opposition to British ground troops in Iraq has also weakened. And then


there is Paris. A public outpouring of sympathy, yes, but no one can say


yet whether it would be matched by public clamour for strikes. We will


find out very soon. There are reports tonight that the vote could


be before Christmas. With me now are


General Sir Mike Jackson, former chief of the general staff and


Wadah Khanfar, the former director You are a sceptic of military action


to deal with Isis? What is the tool you would use? What would you do? I


would advise that there is some kind of multilevel approach. This is a


complicated conflict that has just not only started. This conflict has


been there for a long time. Isis is a production of reality, of a social


and political betrayal that I think, western society in


particular, international society, has lived down those who have been


calling for freedom. We have been watching hundreds of thousands of


people murdered, after also, the path for actual reform, political


reform in the Arab world was blocked when we accepted that the Egyptian


coup could destroy that great march for freedom and democracy and then


we have Isis. We have to deal with Isis but if we do it militarily, we


have the rebels, the Free Syrian Army, who have been there and we


have not allow them to progress because we were very careful not to


give their weapons and we were watching President Assad murdering


his nation... But what do you actually do about Isis? I hear about


the things we might have done wrong. Give the Free Syrian Army, the


people on the ground, weapons to fight the battle. And give them a


counter narrative. Isis has been a thriving on this kind of reality,


which is very dark and grim, and the feeling of victimisation and


oppression. Give people new hope that we can march towards the


future, towards normal life without the international society being


indifferent to the suffering of the public and allowing Isis to thrive


with this narrative they have been preaching. Words, which is a counter


narrative, and weapons to the Free Syrian Army? It is not just about


Syria, though, is it? Syria is clearly a focus for what is going


on. But the influence of Isis spreads much further. There is the


regional problem. Then there is the rather more international problem,


shown by the desperate event in Paris. I don't believe you can


negotiate with these people. It is not on offer. So it is military,


basically? Not exclusively but there has to be a military dimension. It


seems to be the only language that they understand. I take no pleasure


in saying that but that is what I have concluded. Again, you know,


Isis is there and even if you destroyed it now, and that could be


done by the people of the region, in my opinion, there would be a serious


situation. If the reasons for the creation of Isis are not eliminated,


another Isis will be born. Like Al-Qaeda before? Exactly. That is


why I say the military is but one dimension. Can I get you both to


agree, can we agree as one of the people said in that film, you have


to have a political strategy and with that, there may be a case for


some kind of military strategy? Do you agree with that? There are two


counter narratives, one of religion, where we give people hope that we


could reach some kind of normal life. People are sick and tired of


blood. We have seen its pleasures and death by hundreds of thousands


in the region. Definitely, the public in the Arab world, Iraq,


Syria and everywhere, are sick of this. But they would like to be


embraced, encouraged to go towards democracy. The word democracy has


been eliminated from the Western discourse in the last few years. No


one speaks about democracy in the Arab world. We allowed addict take


comeback and now we are destroying Isis -- dictatorship to come back


and now we are destroying Isis without giving people a new


narrative for hope for the future. You may disagree about the political


strategy but I think you both agree that it's necessary. Let's go back


to the Great War philosopher, who made it very clear that the use of


force is posited as by another means. -- politics by other means.


What difference is the debate in Britain going to make to the


outcome? What I am hearing is an argument that is about the West,


really. What percentage difference will British involvement in the


Syrian conflict, military involvement make? In military terms,


we are not crucial. I accept that entirely. I think politically, it


matters a great deal. I believe so. Here we are, here is agreement. I


picked up on the involvement of the regional powers. Absolutely. Not off


the west. Do you think Britain is significant? We have been talking


about it but we deluded to think we are at play in this or are we?


Britain is significant, the voice of Britain is significant but


significant in what direction? He said the region. There was an offer,


regardless if it was 100%, by Turkey, for example, to have a free


zone and that was offered six or seven months ago and no one bothered


to negotiate or talk about it. The solution was there, for example, but


we really felt for a moment that this conflict could continue without


us being affected. Now we realise that blood in the region will never


stay in the region and it could spill over to the entire world.


Thank you for joining us. Empire alone is not enough.


Emily is back tomorrow, and we'll have more of that


Storm Barney has been rattling our windows


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