17/11/2015 Newsnight


17/11/2015

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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Nervousness in Hannover, with the cancellation of the Germany

:00:07.:00:18.

And in Paris, scene of Friday's atrocity, a manhunt goes on.

:00:19.:00:29.

Police revealed the night they are looking for a ninth suspected

:00:30.:00:36.

attacker who may have survived. Rates continue and society is

:00:37.:00:40.

showing growing signs of strain. -- the raids continue.

:00:41.:00:42.

We'll be asking what Paris means for Syria.

:00:43.:00:44.

Does the government's longstanding desire to get Britain more

:00:45.:00:46.

And with the debate over the potential

:00:47.:00:53.

for Syrian terrorists to come to Europe, we meet some of Syrian

:00:54.:00:56.

One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten...

:00:57.:01:11.

We'll go to Paris in a moment - but let's start in London.

:01:12.:01:17.

Never has the result of a football match mattered less than

:01:18.:01:25.

Football is tribal, sometimes unruly, occasionally ugly.

:01:26.:01:28.

But with the game itself a victim on Friday,

:01:29.:01:32.

the fans at the England v France game were not going to do anything

:01:33.:01:36.

except express solidarity with Paris,

:01:37.:01:39.

bringing more meaning to the name "friendly match" than ever before.

:01:40.:01:42.

Here was the scene as the French national anthem was sung.

:01:43.:01:45.

The scene was very different in Hannover tonight.

:01:46.:02:11.

The friendly game between Germany and Holland was called off

:02:12.:02:14.

German police said they had concrete information of an attack,

:02:15.:02:18.

Evidently, there is still a lot to be nervous about.

:02:19.:02:25.

And a lot has been happening in the investigation, too.

:02:26.:02:27.

Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban is in Paris.

:02:28.:02:33.

Evan, moving around Paris and its suburbs today,

:02:34.:02:37.

we got a very distinct feeling that this crisis is far from over.

:02:38.:02:43.

Just tonight, the police have revealed that they are looking for a

:02:44.:02:48.

second on the run suspected attacker who survived.

:02:49.:02:49.

Communities are being raided, even though their leaders have

:02:50.:02:51.

condemned Friday's terror in the strongest terms.

:02:52.:02:56.

And of course, there is a state of emergency

:02:57.:02:59.

that's set to continue for at least three months.

:03:00.:03:05.

Critically, there's a feeling that having been the victim of two major

:03:06.:03:10.

terror attacks already this year, it could easily happen again.

:03:11.:03:12.

The Eiffel Tower symbolises so much at this moment.

:03:13.:03:15.

France may be proud and upright but here also,

:03:16.:03:19.

you can see it is too early to talk about life returning to normal.

:03:20.:03:23.

Australia today advised nationals to avoid Paris

:03:24.:03:27.

but that did not deter the Cross family from the Gold Coast.

:03:28.:03:30.

I think it's important to continue the holiday.

:03:31.:03:32.

The city seems to be functioning within reason,

:03:33.:03:38.

We feel safe. Police everywhere.

:03:39.:03:45.

They were to be disappointed however, because this morning,

:03:46.:03:51.

the tower did not reopen at the appointed hour.

:03:52.:03:53.

That is just one sign of an enduring state of emergency

:03:54.:03:57.

Combine Friday's tragedy with what happened here in January,

:03:58.:04:05.

and the possibility of further attacks, and you have

:04:06.:04:08.

We were expecting that the government would have taken measures

:04:09.:04:20.

I mean, the people in the street were not expecting anything more.

:04:21.:04:30.

To feel a kind of rehearsal of this nightmare makes people very

:04:31.:04:33.

sad, first, very anxious and then very angry.

:04:34.:04:37.

That anger and apprehension has fuelled hundreds of raids

:04:38.:04:46.

Today, police said they had uncovered two safe houses and a

:04:47.:04:53.

hotel room where they think suicide bomb belts had been assembled.

:04:54.:04:59.

But not all operations have yielded positive results.

:05:00.:05:04.

We heard that a mosque had been raided last night

:05:05.:05:10.

Here, the police smashed their way in,

:05:11.:05:15.

The place had been tidied up by the time we got there

:05:16.:05:20.

but it is easy to see how emotions in the poor suburbs, or banlieues,

:05:21.:05:25.

"Look", this man said, showing pictures of the damage.

:05:26.:05:37.

"These are religious books, sacred. It pains me".

:05:38.:05:41.

Surveying the banlieues, where the dozens of mosques he

:05:42.:05:47.

oversees are located, Mohamed Hanniche worries about the pressure

:05:48.:05:49.

So the Muslims in this business are going to pay twice over.

:05:50.:05:57.

They will pay because their religion has been tarnished,

:05:58.:06:00.

And they will pay in the months and years to come because there will

:06:01.:06:07.

be a crisis of feelings and tension around the visibility of Islam.

:06:08.:06:11.

The state of siege is hardly helped by the fact that at least one

:06:12.:06:16.

of Friday's suspected attackers, Salah Abdeslam, is still at large.

:06:17.:06:21.

Tonight, his brother appealed to him to turn himself in.

:06:22.:06:25.

TRANSLATION: We are a family.

:06:26.:06:27.

We are thinking of him. We are wondering where he is.

:06:28.:06:30.

Is he afraid? Is he eating?

:06:31.:06:33.

The best thing would be for him to turn himself in so justice can shed

:06:34.:06:37.

In Aubervilliers and elsewhere in the banlieues, the manhunt goes on.

:06:38.:06:47.

France has awoken to the dangers of having hundreds

:06:48.:06:49.

The right is riding high in the polls, and many fear Europe more

:06:50.:06:57.

Unfortunately, it is not only France.

:06:58.:07:03.

It could be Britain, Spain, Germany, whatever.

:07:04.:07:07.

I think we have to learn to live with, I think that we may...

:07:08.:07:15.

Reach a level of Israeli society or something.

:07:16.:07:17.

We have to get used to living with this risk.

:07:18.:07:20.

I think it is something that our mind is not set but unfortunately,

:07:21.:07:24.

Millions of French of all faiths are determined to deny the terrorists

:07:25.:07:33.

their objective of breaking apart this society, and to escape the

:07:34.:07:37.

But each successive attack will force people to draw a little more

:07:38.:07:44.

We are going to discuss those issues now.

:07:45.:07:58.

With me now is the Arab-French author and film maker Karim Miske

:07:59.:08:01.

and Paris-based journalist Anne Elisabeth Moutet.

:08:02.:08:02.

Can I ask you first, a lot of people talk about the difference in feeling

:08:03.:08:11.

between after the Charlie Hebdo events in January and now. What do

:08:12.:08:16.

you sense? Well, I sense that there is not the same rift in society.

:08:17.:08:23.

After the Charlie Hebdo attacks, quite quickly, France was divided

:08:24.:08:28.

quite quickly because a lot of Muslims had been offended by the

:08:29.:08:32.

cartoons. Now it is different because everybody is hit, the whole

:08:33.:08:35.

of French society suffers in the same way. Then there is also of

:08:36.:08:42.

course this double bind because of public opinion and some politicians

:08:43.:08:46.

or journalists are asking the Muslims to in a way condemn even

:08:47.:08:52.

more than the others. But I think they do it the same way as other

:08:53.:08:57.

French people. The effect of so many raids in the banlieues, can it go on

:08:58.:09:04.

at this level? I guess it is too early to know. At the moment,

:09:05.:09:10.

everyone is shocked. I don't know. It depends how long it lasts and it

:09:11.:09:16.

depends if it is really focused, if there are real reasons for them to

:09:17.:09:19.

raid these specific mosques or specific neighbourhoods or not. If

:09:20.:09:26.

they are just randomly raiding such and such areas because they think

:09:27.:09:31.

that there are a lot of practising Muslims there, it is not going to

:09:32.:09:35.

work, definitely. A lot of speculation about the Front

:09:36.:09:40.

National, will they benefit from this and what will we see in the

:09:41.:09:45.

local elections coming up next month? Several things. We don't know

:09:46.:09:50.

yet and as you have said, it is early days. The Front National, this

:09:51.:09:56.

time, just like at the time of Charlie Hebdo, has been incredibly

:09:57.:10:02.

tin eared. Their reaction was not in harmony with the rest of the

:10:03.:10:05.

country. The show of unity in the country has been impressive and

:10:06.:10:13.

Karim is right, we are seeing the faces of the people who died and

:10:14.:10:18.

they were black, white, brown, women, men, mostly young and this is

:10:19.:10:27.

the new French nation. Any diverging and shockingly different tone and

:10:28.:10:33.

bitter, dividing attitude is something that does not work. Even

:10:34.:10:38.

when Nicolas goes the criticised the policy, you may have had a point

:10:39.:10:43.

that -- Nicolas Nkoulou C criticised the policy he may have had a point

:10:44.:10:48.

but it jarred. We are electing powers to the 13 regions of France

:10:49.:10:51.

and it is possible that one or two may go to the Front National which

:10:52.:10:54.

is also a possibility before this happened. They are important in

:10:55.:11:01.

terms of the French economic way of administering itself. In terms of

:11:02.:11:06.

politics, they are mostly important as a life-size poll. It will be

:11:07.:11:09.

interesting to see if the Front National games a lot. They are

:11:10.:11:13.

really the only party where you can see a difference because these are

:11:14.:11:17.

very local elections and I don't see Francois Hollande's very respectable

:11:18.:11:22.

performance in dealing with this horrible crisis reflected in itself

:11:23.:11:29.

on the ground, in the profited so much. How do you think, societally,

:11:30.:11:34.

the bigger issue of so many returning jab this is, people who

:11:35.:11:37.

have been involved in struggle, can be managed -- returning jihadists,

:11:38.:11:43.

people have been involved in struggle, can be managed in a way

:11:44.:11:48.

that does not open up wrists? It is going to be difficult and in France,

:11:49.:11:53.

we began very late, if you compare it to Britain, Denmark or Germany,

:11:54.:12:00.

to really address the question of jihad is -- jet had it,

:12:01.:12:05.

radicalisation and so on. Why did France begin so late? Maybe because

:12:06.:12:13.

we are very afraid of what we call... We don't want to deal with

:12:14.:12:17.

communities. It is true they don't exactly exist in the same way as in

:12:18.:12:21.

other countries but nevertheless, you want to do this kind of job, you

:12:22.:12:25.

have to do it with the other communities, not against them.

:12:26.:12:31.

Lastly, briefly, from each of you, do you recognise the term French

:12:32.:12:34.

intifada that some writers have used or is it just type? I don't

:12:35.:12:44.

recognise this, no. The intifada is really two nations struggling

:12:45.:12:48.

against one another. This is a tiny proportion. It is absolutely not

:12:49.:12:53.

relevant. This is a terrorist attack that targets France in a shock and

:12:54.:13:01.

awe tactic. It has nothing to do with something that, however you

:13:02.:13:06.

feel about it, is based on ground and to rain. I would say that these

:13:07.:13:10.

people, even though they were French, were foreigners in their own

:13:11.:13:13.

country and that is not the case with the intifada.

:13:14.:13:14.

Back to football tonight, where we started the programme.

:13:15.:13:22.

Now, there was a lot of rumour about the situation in Hannover

:13:23.:13:24.

earlier this evening, and the reasons for cancelling

:13:25.:13:26.

Let's talk to the BBC's Berlin correspondent Jenny Hill,

:13:27.:13:30.

Just what happened? They did not apparently find any explosives,

:13:31.:13:42.

despite rumours to the contrary. Quite. Just a few hours ago, there

:13:43.:13:47.

was gridlock here, police officers everywhere, sirens going off,

:13:48.:13:52.

flashing lights everywhere. The police president for Hannover said

:13:53.:13:55.

there was a concrete threat, a concrete security threat against the

:13:56.:13:59.

city of Hannover. Verdi 2000 fans had bought tickets for the game.

:14:00.:14:03.

They were evacuated from the stadium and told by the police, not just

:14:04.:14:08.

leave the stadium but the area, to go home and get out of town. --

:14:09.:14:13.

32,000 fans. There has been two other securities gains in addition

:14:14.:14:17.

in this city tonight. As you say, tonight the police say they have

:14:18.:14:22.

made no arrests and found no explosives. The interior Minister

:14:23.:14:25.

for Germany was due to watch the game along with members of the

:14:26.:14:30.

German cabinet and the Chancellor. That is because this game was about

:14:31.:14:34.

far more than just football. The German team, who of course

:14:35.:14:37.

themselves were caught up in the Paris attacks on Friday, were

:14:38.:14:40.

nervous about the game going ahead but agreed to participate, to let it

:14:41.:14:47.

happen because they and a lot of the German people dealt it was important

:14:48.:14:51.

to show solidarity and defiance in the face of international terrorism

:14:52.:14:55.

but instead of watching the match, the interior minister ended up

:14:56.:14:59.

giving a press conference right here a little earlier this evening. He

:15:00.:15:02.

says he wants Germans to trust him when he says he received the kind of

:15:03.:15:06.

intelligence which meant he felt there was no choice but to cancel

:15:07.:15:10.

the game and evacuate the stadium. Briefly, is there a sense they were

:15:11.:15:15.

being a bit jumpy and too cautious? Is everyone doing that, trusting him

:15:16.:15:18.

and assuming there was good intelligence? Of course there are

:15:19.:15:24.

questions about the proportionality of the response. But interestingly,

:15:25.:15:28.

the interior minister said that he was not prepared to share the source

:15:29.:15:32.

of the intelligence which led him to make his decision. There are

:15:33.:15:36.

unconfirmed reports circulating in the German press which suggest that

:15:37.:15:40.

intelligence may have come on France. We don't know that for

:15:41.:15:44.

certain but if that is the case, perhaps the response was rather more

:15:45.:15:48.

understandable. It cannot be over emphasised enough, Germany is

:15:49.:15:52.

nervous at the highest levels of government. They are expecting a

:15:53.:15:56.

terrorist atrocity. In the words of one minister Tom Germany is in the

:15:57.:15:59.

cross hairs of international terrorism.

:16:00.:16:03.

Well, football is global, it is multicultural and it is fun,

:16:04.:16:06.

and it is evidently a target for jihadists who stand

:16:07.:16:08.

Does this have consequences for the game?

:16:09.:16:14.

One man who is surely having to give some thought to this is

:16:15.:16:17.

Richard Scudamore, the chief executive of the Premier League.

:16:18.:16:19.

I sat down to talk to him this afternoon.

:16:20.:16:23.

A suicide bomber was stopped from getting

:16:24.:16:25.

Could a violent incident be stopped if a bomber tried the same

:16:26.:16:30.

Well, I think one has to hope that it would.

:16:31.:16:37.

I think it's very difficult to say with absolute certainty that it

:16:38.:16:40.

would because you have to rely on intelligence an awful lot.

:16:41.:16:43.

You have to rely on a lot of the intelligence services an awful lot.

:16:44.:16:46.

But yeah, we do have a situation where, you know, I am absolutely

:16:47.:16:50.

certain everything is done that could possibly be done.

:16:51.:16:52.

But we all live in a situation where you cannot

:16:53.:16:56.

entirely rule out and legislate for these attacks of really just,

:16:57.:16:59.

just terrible, despicable acts where people are prepared to blow

:17:00.:17:02.

Do you think there will be more frisking of fans as they come in,

:17:03.:17:14.

We have been on high alert at Premier League games

:17:15.:17:18.

If you think we're going to be on extra high alert this coming

:17:19.:17:23.

The club secretaries are all meeting tomorrow, there will be a discussion

:17:24.:17:27.

There will be further guidance issued again over

:17:28.:17:30.

the next coming days, before the games start at the weekend.

:17:31.:17:35.

But ultimately, if somebody is absolutely, absolutely hell-bent -

:17:36.:17:38.

and that is really the word - in terms of making something

:17:39.:17:43.

terrible happen, you cannot entirely, entirely rule it out.

:17:44.:17:45.

Richard Scudamore of the Premier League.

:17:46.:17:51.

We had a long chat about football and the English Premier League and

:17:52.:17:54.

Tonight though, the national game was the focus.

:17:55.:17:59.

The friendly game between England and France ended in a 2-0 England

:18:00.:18:02.

Despite the weather, it was an occasion for warmth.

:18:03.:18:07.

It was almost like the Christmas truce - hostilities buried

:18:08.:18:10.

The unified singing of the French national anthem was moving,

:18:11.:18:19.

as was the minute's silence for those who lost their lives.

:18:20.:18:33.

I'm joined by the former French and Premier League player, Louis Saha.

:18:34.:18:38.

Good evening. You have got up very early in the morning. Do you

:18:39.:18:49.

appreciate that football is a target of these jihadists, it is something

:18:50.:18:54.

it represents that they find abhorrent and want to target? I

:18:55.:19:01.

think so, it is one of the most popular games in the world. It has

:19:02.:19:06.

such an effect on the press, just talking about the stadium in Paris,

:19:07.:19:15.

Paris is such a lovely town and is loved by many people, many visitors.

:19:16.:19:21.

So football is like a big symbol and to touch that was really hard. I

:19:22.:19:31.

think it is not really important for sport, it is more the impact, the

:19:32.:19:38.

disaster on families, children seeing horrible things. It was

:19:39.:19:43.

touching to see the support of England. What were your feelings

:19:44.:19:48.

when you heard about the events in Paris and especially the suicide

:19:49.:19:52.

bombers at the start of France. I was scared, I had so many friends

:19:53.:19:58.

who went to see the game. Just wanting to have a nice time and just

:19:59.:20:09.

chilled with friends. You hear about bombs and Kalashnikov rifles and

:20:10.:20:15.

horrible scenes in the street. It has an impact on everyone. I was

:20:16.:20:20.

shocked and devastated. I know there could be people that I know and I

:20:21.:20:24.

was really scared. So it had an impact on everyone. What does it

:20:25.:20:31.

mean that English fans sang the French national anthem this

:20:32.:20:35.

evening? It is huge. We know there is a special relationship, a history

:20:36.:20:44.

between England and France. We can see from that special game, it was

:20:45.:20:49.

very emotional. 70,000 people singing together the French national

:20:50.:20:57.

anthem. It is emotional, it was really touching. I can only say

:20:58.:21:03.

thank you and paid tribute to those people who really supported and

:21:04.:21:09.

travelled, because it was not like someplace that you feel very safe.

:21:10.:21:13.

Because of what happened in the Stade de France. They had the

:21:14.:21:17.

courage to show they were against what happened, against terrorism or

:21:18.:21:22.

top and this is the way forward. It would be nice if every country did

:21:23.:21:29.

the same. Every country react the same. It could be Africa or other

:21:30.:21:32.

countries. Thank you for joining us. It just

:21:33.:21:36.

so happens that with questions being asked across the continent

:21:37.:21:38.

about the wisdom of allowing Syrians into Europe, the largest group

:21:39.:21:41.

of refugees that Britain has Now Britain has its own resettlement

:21:42.:21:43.

programme, which is not aimed at those who make perilous journeys to

:21:44.:21:49.

Europe, but at a smaller number who A plane of such people landed

:21:50.:21:52.

in Glasgow today. Katie Razzall went to Jordan to meet

:21:53.:21:58.

some of those who've now arrived, to see the process they've had to

:21:59.:22:02.

go through to be accepted here. In Jordan were one fifth of the

:22:03.:22:24.

population is now Syrian, for some it is a time of goodbye. After years

:22:25.:22:30.

of waiting there are being resettled. Hundreds are travelling

:22:31.:22:35.

from ear to the UK over the next month. -- from here.

:22:36.:22:49.

Last week with our translator I met one family repairing for a life.

:22:50.:22:54.

Approved by UNHCR as vulnerable as to meet with settlement, the UK

:22:55.:22:58.

offered them sanctuary. The little ones looked ready to go. One two,

:22:59.:23:11.

three, four, five, six... His father, a diabetic, died in Syria.

:23:12.:23:16.

The children were taken in by their ant and uncle. There aged 18 and 20.

:23:17.:23:23.

And there one more member of the family. And here is the head of the

:23:24.:23:33.

family. What did you have to do to satisfy the requirements to be able

:23:34.:23:36.

in the end to be resettled? What do you know about the UK?

:23:37.:24:07.

Injured in the war and needing a hard operation, this man is deemed

:24:08.:24:12.

an urgent vulnerable case. Your nephews are here. Why are they

:24:13.:24:46.

with you, what happened to your brother?

:24:47.:25:19.

For traumatised young boys football has offered some comfort. Now

:25:20.:25:26.

they're bidding farewell to friends at the orphans charity that help the

:25:27.:25:30.

family since they fled Syria in 2013.

:25:31.:25:45.

Without the wages of the oldest family could not have survived. Like

:25:46.:25:50.

85% of refugees in Jordan they do not live in camps but pay for

:25:51.:25:55.

private rented accommodation. It is illegal for refugees to working

:25:56.:25:59.

without a permit and he has been arrested three times. Impoverished

:26:00.:26:05.

circumstances are another thing that UNHCR takes into account. Like many

:26:06.:26:09.

families, theirs is complicated. Their mother was the first wife who

:26:10.:26:15.

has since remarried with younger children. Yet another refugee family

:26:16.:26:21.

living in Jordan. Now her eldest children are being resettled with

:26:22.:26:23.

their father. Sometimes there are no words for good ride.

:26:24.:26:29.

The family are thankful to the UK. They will be safe, they say, and

:26:30.:26:33.

free to work and study. But it is a wrench to leave the country that

:26:34.:26:37.

closely resembles their homeland and the tears flow easily.

:26:38.:26:43.

You're going to the UK. You may never see Syria again. What memories

:26:44.:26:52.

with you hold onto? -- will you.

:26:53.:27:12.

Jordan has taken in so many Syrians. For a country the size it is the

:27:13.:27:18.

equivalent of everyone from Greece moving to the UK in the space of two

:27:19.:27:23.

years. Now some are leaving and buying codes for the Glaswegian

:27:24.:27:27.

whether they have been warned about. UNHCR rates about one tenth of the

:27:28.:27:33.

Syrian refugees as fulfilling the vulnerability criteria for

:27:34.:27:37.

resettlement. I have covered the refugee crisis in Europe, where it

:27:38.:27:41.

is not difficult to spot the people seeking a better life. Here in

:27:42.:27:45.

Jordan the refugees are much more hidden. There are intermingled with

:27:46.:27:49.

the population and living in a kind of limbo. There are just so many

:27:50.:27:54.

vulnerable people here. I wonder how the authorities decide which of them

:27:55.:27:58.

are vulnerable enough to be resettled. Newsnight has been given

:27:59.:28:06.

exclusive access to the resettlement offers of UNHCR where the

:28:07.:28:12.

assessments are made. Are you and your family interested in being

:28:13.:28:17.

resettled? Yes. There are two kinds of interview going on behind the

:28:18.:28:22.

stores. The initial interrogation when they get some details about why

:28:23.:28:26.

they left Syria, and what their life is like in Jordan. Then a much more

:28:27.:28:32.

lengthy, in-depth interrogation where they are questioned about why

:28:33.:28:35.

they fled their country and of why there might be eligible for

:28:36.:28:40.

resettlement. Since September when the images of

:28:41.:28:43.

the little Syrian boy washed on the beach shocked the world, countries

:28:44.:28:46.

like the UK have upped their resettlement numbers. There is a

:28:47.:28:51.

target or quota offered by the UK, 500 people. By the end of the year

:28:52.:28:57.

we will have slightly over 500 Syrian refugees who will leave for

:28:58.:29:05.

the UK from Jordan. When you see torture, D1 tell us what was going

:29:06.:29:07.

on. -- do you want to tell us. You are saying they poured spirit

:29:08.:29:38.

onto the open wounds. So your family was alone at that

:29:39.:29:44.

time. The UK carries out its own detailed security checks before

:29:45.:29:46.

approving a refugee resettlement. Here at UNHCR they made every effort

:29:47.:29:52.

to verify often harrowing accounts. It takes a toll on us. The fact that

:29:53.:29:59.

you can talk to someone who has gone through something on a day-to-day

:30:00.:30:05.

basis, we would consider to be horrible and horrendous. And they

:30:06.:30:08.

smile at you at the end of the interview. That is what keeps you

:30:09.:30:11.

going, but you can see a child who has gone through quite a bit and

:30:12.:30:15.

they're here feel safe. They can run around and come and touch you and

:30:16.:30:20.

say hello. That is what keeps us going. The Syrian family that we met

:30:21.:30:26.

know they're lucky. Today they were aboard the charter flight of

:30:27.:30:30.

vulnerable refugees heading to Glasgow. They had never been on a

:30:31.:30:36.

plane before. Our family will not emerge through these does. The

:30:37.:30:40.

British authorities have been clear, they want to keep the new arrivals

:30:41.:30:45.

away from the cameras. That is understandable, they have a duty of

:30:46.:30:48.

care towards these people and they are vulnerable. I cannot say I'm not

:30:49.:30:52.

disappointed, I had hoped to be allowed to meet them, to be a

:30:53.:30:56.

familiar face as they arrived in this new and strange land.

:30:57.:31:04.

There is the first wave of up to 1000 Syrians who will arrive before

:31:05.:31:09.

Christmas. The Glasgow weather must have been a shock. Newsnight hopes

:31:10.:31:14.

to follow them and another family as they begin their new lives.

:31:15.:31:18.

And good luck to them. Now,

:31:19.:31:20.

events in Paris have ramifications One, they are focusing minds

:31:21.:31:22.

on how to move forward politically, particularly if shared ground can

:31:23.:31:27.

be found with the Russians. Two, events have focused minds

:31:28.:31:31.

on what can be achieved militarily Let's face it, Britain's been

:31:32.:31:33.

debating that anyway for months. But the argument gained

:31:34.:31:38.

new energy today. Allegra Stratton has been

:31:39.:31:40.

following it. A vote in 2003, that took us

:31:41.:31:47.

into the Iraq War. This is the time for this House,

:31:48.:31:54.

not just this government or indeed this Prime Minister,

:31:55.:31:59.

but for this House to give a lead. And ten years later, a vote in 2013

:32:00.:32:01.

that kept us out of a Syrian war. It is clear to me that the British

:32:02.:32:06.

Parliament, reflecting the views of the British people, does not want

:32:07.:32:10.

to see British military action. I get that, and the government

:32:11.:32:13.

will act accordingly. Learning the right lessons

:32:14.:32:19.

from these two votes determines whether or not Parliament gets

:32:20.:32:25.

a third vote, a fresh look Recently, a committee

:32:26.:32:27.

of MPs warned the Prime Minister Today, he said he would be

:32:28.:32:31.

addressing their concerns directly. I will respond personally to the

:32:32.:32:41.

report of the foreign affairs select committee. I will set out, read a

:32:42.:32:46.

strategy for dealing with Isil, our vision for a more stable and

:32:47.:32:50.

peaceful Middle East. This strategy, in my view, should include taking

:32:51.:32:54.

the action in Syria I have spoken about. I hope that in setting up the

:32:55.:32:58.

arguments in this way, I can help build support right across this

:32:59.:33:03.

house for the action I believe is necessary to take. A lot has changed

:33:04.:33:13.

since the vote in September 2013. Events in Paris over the weekend, of

:33:14.:33:15.

course, but even before that, talks in Vienna suggesting the West and

:33:16.:33:18.

Russia might after all be able to join forces and the suggestion of

:33:19.:33:20.

compromise over the future role of President Assad. But for the

:33:21.:33:23.

critical inner workings of this place, the Prime Minister's comments

:33:24.:33:27.

to date may prove the most important in persuading Labour MPs. He

:33:28.:33:31.

suggested he may be coming forward with a plan at the suggestion is it

:33:32.:33:34.

will include political and military solutions. You can't do this job

:33:35.:33:40.

from the air alone unless there is a credible ground Force, and I don't

:33:41.:33:44.

mean just the Kurds, who are only a part of the picture. There has to be

:33:45.:33:48.

a credible ground force which we are supporting with air power.

:33:49.:33:52.

Otherwise, it is a pointless, futile and dangerous, empty gesture. Apart

:33:53.:33:58.

from that, it's a great idea! I'm open-minded because I think there's

:33:59.:34:02.

a threat that Isis poses, not just in Syria but to the security of the

:34:03.:34:08.

UK and clearly to the security of our European neighbours as well, as

:34:09.:34:11.

we saw, tragically on the streets of Paris on Friday. I think our

:34:12.:34:16.

leadership should have a free vote on the issue, given the diversions

:34:17.:34:21.

of view is that there clearly are. Jeremy Corbyn is still insisting he

:34:22.:34:25.

will whip his MPs on the vote. David Cameron's great hope is that he can

:34:26.:34:30.

prise away quite a number of them. But how many? If we can get to the

:34:31.:34:33.

situation where it looks like Britain, as one, can come together,

:34:34.:34:38.

I'm not asking for an overwhelming majority, a majority would be good

:34:39.:34:41.

enough, to come forward and say it is right for us to take this action.

:34:42.:34:46.

The inner workings of Parliament are shifting right now. BELL

:34:47.:34:52.

Behind the scenes, the machinery of whipping the forthcoming Syrian vote

:34:53.:34:56.

has started. I think the Prime Minister does not care if the Leader

:34:57.:34:59.

of the Opposition votes against him as long as he gets a majority of

:35:00.:35:04.

50-60. To get this, you would need to limit the Tory rebellion to

:35:05.:35:09.

15-20, while persuading some 70 Labour rebels including some senior

:35:10.:35:12.

figures like Yvette Cooper, a tricky task. And what of actual public

:35:13.:35:19.

opinion? Since the summer of 2014, support for air strikes against Isil

:35:20.:35:24.

in Syria has risen to 60% and stayed there, despite a toxic Iraq legacy,

:35:25.:35:28.

opposition to British ground troops in Iraq has also weakened. And then

:35:29.:35:36.

there is Paris. A public outpouring of sympathy, yes, but no one can say

:35:37.:35:41.

yet whether it would be matched by public clamour for strikes. We will

:35:42.:35:45.

find out very soon. There are reports tonight that the vote could

:35:46.:35:46.

be before Christmas. With me now are

:35:47.:35:48.

General Sir Mike Jackson, former chief of the general staff and

:35:49.:35:50.

Wadah Khanfar, the former director You are a sceptic of military action

:35:51.:36:02.

to deal with Isis? What is the tool you would use? What would you do? I

:36:03.:36:08.

would advise that there is some kind of multilevel approach. This is a

:36:09.:36:14.

complicated conflict that has just not only started. This conflict has

:36:15.:36:18.

been there for a long time. Isis is a production of reality, of a social

:36:19.:36:23.

and political betrayal that I think, western society in

:36:24.:36:29.

particular, international society, has lived down those who have been

:36:30.:36:33.

calling for freedom. We have been watching hundreds of thousands of

:36:34.:36:37.

people murdered, after also, the path for actual reform, political

:36:38.:36:42.

reform in the Arab world was blocked when we accepted that the Egyptian

:36:43.:36:50.

coup could destroy that great march for freedom and democracy and then

:36:51.:36:54.

we have Isis. We have to deal with Isis but if we do it militarily, we

:36:55.:36:57.

have the rebels, the Free Syrian Army, who have been there and we

:36:58.:37:00.

have not allow them to progress because we were very careful not to

:37:01.:37:04.

give their weapons and we were watching President Assad murdering

:37:05.:37:08.

his nation... But what do you actually do about Isis? I hear about

:37:09.:37:13.

the things we might have done wrong. Give the Free Syrian Army, the

:37:14.:37:18.

people on the ground, weapons to fight the battle. And give them a

:37:19.:37:26.

counter narrative. Isis has been a thriving on this kind of reality,

:37:27.:37:31.

which is very dark and grim, and the feeling of victimisation and

:37:32.:37:34.

oppression. Give people new hope that we can march towards the

:37:35.:37:37.

future, towards normal life without the international society being

:37:38.:37:42.

indifferent to the suffering of the public and allowing Isis to thrive

:37:43.:37:45.

with this narrative they have been preaching. Words, which is a counter

:37:46.:37:52.

narrative, and weapons to the Free Syrian Army? It is not just about

:37:53.:37:57.

Syria, though, is it? Syria is clearly a focus for what is going

:37:58.:38:02.

on. But the influence of Isis spreads much further. There is the

:38:03.:38:08.

regional problem. Then there is the rather more international problem,

:38:09.:38:14.

shown by the desperate event in Paris. I don't believe you can

:38:15.:38:20.

negotiate with these people. It is not on offer. So it is military,

:38:21.:38:26.

basically? Not exclusively but there has to be a military dimension. It

:38:27.:38:30.

seems to be the only language that they understand. I take no pleasure

:38:31.:38:36.

in saying that but that is what I have concluded. Again, you know,

:38:37.:38:44.

Isis is there and even if you destroyed it now, and that could be

:38:45.:38:48.

done by the people of the region, in my opinion, there would be a serious

:38:49.:38:53.

situation. If the reasons for the creation of Isis are not eliminated,

:38:54.:38:59.

another Isis will be born. Like Al-Qaeda before? Exactly. That is

:39:00.:39:05.

why I say the military is but one dimension. Can I get you both to

:39:06.:39:08.

agree, can we agree as one of the people said in that film, you have

:39:09.:39:12.

to have a political strategy and with that, there may be a case for

:39:13.:39:17.

some kind of military strategy? Do you agree with that? There are two

:39:18.:39:23.

counter narratives, one of religion, where we give people hope that we

:39:24.:39:26.

could reach some kind of normal life. People are sick and tired of

:39:27.:39:29.

blood. We have seen its pleasures and death by hundreds of thousands

:39:30.:39:32.

in the region. Definitely, the public in the Arab world, Iraq,

:39:33.:39:37.

Syria and everywhere, are sick of this. But they would like to be

:39:38.:39:44.

embraced, encouraged to go towards democracy. The word democracy has

:39:45.:39:47.

been eliminated from the Western discourse in the last few years. No

:39:48.:39:52.

one speaks about democracy in the Arab world. We allowed addict take

:39:53.:39:57.

comeback and now we are destroying Isis -- dictatorship to come back

:39:58.:40:01.

and now we are destroying Isis without giving people a new

:40:02.:40:05.

narrative for hope for the future. You may disagree about the political

:40:06.:40:09.

strategy but I think you both agree that it's necessary. Let's go back

:40:10.:40:13.

to the Great War philosopher, who made it very clear that the use of

:40:14.:40:19.

force is posited as by another means. -- politics by other means.

:40:20.:40:25.

What difference is the debate in Britain going to make to the

:40:26.:40:28.

outcome? What I am hearing is an argument that is about the West,

:40:29.:40:33.

really. What percentage difference will British involvement in the

:40:34.:40:37.

Syrian conflict, military involvement make? In military terms,

:40:38.:40:41.

we are not crucial. I accept that entirely. I think politically, it

:40:42.:40:49.

matters a great deal. I believe so. Here we are, here is agreement. I

:40:50.:40:53.

picked up on the involvement of the regional powers. Absolutely. Not off

:40:54.:41:01.

the west. Do you think Britain is significant? We have been talking

:41:02.:41:05.

about it but we deluded to think we are at play in this or are we?

:41:06.:41:09.

Britain is significant, the voice of Britain is significant but

:41:10.:41:14.

significant in what direction? He said the region. There was an offer,

:41:15.:41:19.

regardless if it was 100%, by Turkey, for example, to have a free

:41:20.:41:23.

zone and that was offered six or seven months ago and no one bothered

:41:24.:41:28.

to negotiate or talk about it. The solution was there, for example, but

:41:29.:41:31.

we really felt for a moment that this conflict could continue without

:41:32.:41:36.

us being affected. Now we realise that blood in the region will never

:41:37.:41:39.

stay in the region and it could spill over to the entire world.

:41:40.:41:43.

Thank you for joining us. Empire alone is not enough.

:41:44.:41:46.

Emily is back tomorrow, and we'll have more of that

:41:47.:42:05.

Storm Barney has been rattling our windows

:42:06.:42:06.

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