Browse content similar to 16/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight on Newsnight, we are live in Paris in the Place de | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
la Republique, as the president tells France, "We are at war" . | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
We report from Brussels and Belgium, where half of the attackers came | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
from, including the man thought to have masterminded the plot. | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
It's long been known that Belgium had a security problem. | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
In Greece I've been speaking to an official who registered one of the | :00:22. | :00:31. | |
suicide bombers when he first arrived in Europe. And what of the | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
implications for Britain as the drum beat for strikes on Syria sounds. | :00:37. | :00:46. | |
Hello, good evening from Paris, where the appalling events of what | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
happened here on Friday have now triggered responses and | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
investigations right across Europe, most notably in France and in | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
Belgium. And in Greece as well. This country woke up to reports that its | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
police had carried out raids in 168 separate locations right across | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
France. But the most wanted man is still on the run, dangerous, very | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
possibly still armed. Salah Abdeslam is believed to be the only surviving | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
member of the group of gunmen who took part in Friday's atrocities. | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
Police are understood to have initially stopped him but then let | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
him across the border to Belgium. As the president here declared the | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
country at war, he showed his military actions with might, attacks | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
on Raqqa, that Isis strong hold in Syria. Mark urban, our diplomatic | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
editor is here to talk us through the events of the day. There's been | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
a lot of sound and fury, what is the significance of what's come out of | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
tonight? The key thing, you mention all the raids, more than 160 of | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
them. The state of emergency, the first time nationally in France for | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
54 years. There are big changes afoot in France. That became clear | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
when we heard President Hollande addressing a joint session of the | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
two Houses of Parliament here. It was clear right from the start. | :02:06. | :02:14. | |
TRANSLATION: France is at war. The acts committed on Friday evening in | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
Paris and near the National Stadium are acts of war. It is an aggression | :02:19. | :02:28. | |
against our country, against its values, against its youth, against | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
its way of life. In the speech he laid out a hugely ambitious set of | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
measures, 5,000 more police, more border guards, important in the | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
context of the immigration debate, more spies. Legal changes, a state | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
of emergency to be extended for three months, changes to the basic | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
law of France - the constitution, redefining the terms and the powers | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
that could be used under the state of emergency. Real changes to the | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
concept of liberty, so central to this country. He used that very | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
emotive phrase, "We are at war." He showed what he meant with the | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
attacks on Raqqa. How far will military might work? A lot of debate | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
about the targets, where did they come up with 20 targets. Islamic | :03:17. | :03:18. | |
State denying they did any good at all. That's a purely demon strative | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
action by France last night. They're sending a carrier. America is | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
sending a carrier. Critically today we heard President Obama saying no | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
more boots on the ground. He pushed back against that idea. Whatever the | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
retorical support for France people don't want to put their troops in | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
there. So how can you increase the pressure. The own way is through | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
progress on the peace plan. That will be difficult. An idea floated | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
today by President Hollande of a joint front for military action with | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
Russia and the United States. He says he will meet both leaders soon. | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
Perhaps through coordinated action they can help to increase the | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
pressure that we have seen on IS, particularly from the Kurds and | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
other forces in the north of Syria and Iraq in recent days. That's the | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
best they can hope for, I think. Mark, thank you very much. The | :04:11. | :04:21. | |
epicentre today changed today. There has been questions over the | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
surveillance operations. Let's talk to our investigations reporter. What | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
can you tell us about that? Well, the problem for Belgium is | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
historical as much as anything else. It's a highly devolved country. It | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
has a number of Darren police forces. It -- number of different | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
police forces. It doesn't have the resources you might expect from MI5, | :04:45. | :04:53. | |
GCHQ and SIS. I know in 2010 British diplomats were concerned enough | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
about what was going on in Belgium and their counter-terrorism strategy | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
to raise this at the highest levels of Whitehall. At the time, I think | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
the problems were compounded by the fact that Western intelligence | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
agencies were not really prepared to share information with Belgium. You | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
can see that even before the Syrian crisis erupted, Belgium was | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
considered a weak link in this intelligence chain. | :05:17. | :05:28. | |
We're hoping to hear from the investigations in Belgium, where we | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
know certain significant developments have been made. We | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
understand that was not only the epicentre but the home of the man | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
who Masterminded these attacks. But what about further afield? We know | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
most of those who carried out the attacks in Paris were born or | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
brought up in Belgium. But it seems likely that at least one of them | :05:50. | :05:57. | |
entered the EU posing as a refugee last month. He was identified by | :05:58. | :06:06. | |
fingerprints and passport details found at the scene. They match a man | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
who we understand arrived six weeks earlier. How he got into the | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
European Union is a huge question for European security and for | :06:18. | :06:18. | |
Europe's migrant policy. We are heading to Medson Island, | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
a lump of scrub and rock But for those who dump | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
their life jackets here, this represents salvation, | :06:29. | :06:36. | |
the entry point to Europe. They come in their thousands, | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
fleeing violence at home. Now it seems one of them has | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
brought the war with them. It was on this rocky outcrop, | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
we understand, that someone with a passport in the | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
name of Ahmad Al Mohammad was helped The passport may have been | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
a fake but we do know that one of the Paris attackers gained entry to | :07:00. | :07:07. | |
the EU posing as a Syrian refugee. That is an earthquake | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
for a continent in the midst of a migration crisis and for the people | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
who continue to arrive every day. We want the peace in Europe, because | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
they have war in my country. I come here to better, | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
get a new life. We may not yet know | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
the true identity of the man named as Ahmed Al Mohammad, but his | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
journey has injected fresh angst The Coast Guard brought | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
Mr Al Mohammad to Leros. There, passengers go through | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
a process of registration. Greek and EU officials take | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
fingerprints and photographs and ask I have spoken to an official who | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
says that he remembers Mr Al He told me he arrived on a boat | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
with about 70 or 80 other Syrians. Immediately, something did not | :08:04. | :08:11. | |
feel quite right about him. He said he kind | :08:12. | :08:13. | |
of kept himself to himself. He told me he would have highlighted | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
his concerns to an intelligence More than 500,000 refugees | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
and migrants have entered Europe Border forces across the continent | :08:20. | :08:27. | |
are ill-equipped to conduct On a small island like Leros, | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
they are simply not capable Many immigrants have passed | :08:35. | :08:42. | |
from Leros, We think all the time, maybe some | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
of them are not really refugees. President Hollande said today that | :08:50. | :08:57. | |
a failure to control Europe's external borders would lead to | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
the dismantling of the union. But the man on the front line, the | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
mayor of Leros, says that would mean Here in Leros, | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
we don't have the economics, the It will happen again | :09:10. | :09:25. | |
if it continues like this. The police told us they were not | :09:26. | :09:34. | |
authorised to give interviews but He said that specially trained | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
experts at key border crossings can help | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
prevent terrorists from getting in. "If you want a safe Europe, | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
this is what has to be done". The Paris bomber appears to have | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
travelled across Europe From Leros, | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
a man with a passport in the name of a Ahmad Al Mohammad takes a ferry | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
to Athens on the 5th of October. Serbia registers | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
the same name entering On October the eighth, he turns up | :10:10. | :10:11. | |
in a refugee camp in Croatia before crossing into Hungary, | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
believed to be heading to Austria. Then he disappears until last | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
Friday, when he detonated a suicide On Leros, the never-ending stream | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
of migrants continues unabated. Ahmed Al Mohammad may have been only | :10:25. | :10:32. | |
one jihadist in a million refugees but this | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
crisis is an issue which is testing the very bond that hold Europe | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
together, and today, that question Clearly it does raise questions or | :10:42. | :10:58. | |
sentiment, at least, about Schengen, about the Angela Merkel border | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
politician. And a French politician, who was Justice Minister under Mr | :11:03. | :11:14. | |
Sarcozy, met with me. I asked what she thought the response should be. | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
Do you think the real threat from France comes from outside its | :11:19. | :11:19. | |
borders or inside? Rachida Dati, the former justice | :11:20. | :14:30. | |
minister, battling through my French. | :14:31. | :14:31. | |
I am joined now by Alain Richard who was French defence minister under | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
One of the phrases I took away was Rachida Dati saying that without | :14:37. | :14:46. | |
security, you can't have liberty. In other words, the borders around | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
Schengen, around Europe, have got to be fiercely guarded to allow for the | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
liberty inside. Do you agree? It is rather a common view, isn't it? | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
Identity any radical meaning in it. We have at all times to ensure | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
security for our citizens and for the Republic as a whole. We have to | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
do this, preserving our liberties. What can we do more? The real issue | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
is how we do it, and what practical decisions we take. That is what we | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
were discussing this afternoon in Parliament. What do you think those | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
should be? When you hear for example, stories that one of the | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
attackers came through Greece and was recognised as possibly being a | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
loner... It is a supposition, not news. Except they have got his | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
fingerprints so we know that he came through there, whether as a refugee | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
or migrant, we don't know but capital will be made of this. But | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
you remember that come all the other attacks were either born here or | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
raised here, so it is obviously out of the screen to look first at the | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
migration issue. The real issue is about society and the impact of | :16:08. | :16:19. | |
jihad is -- jihadists in all our countries. France have a huge number | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
of citizens who have left this country, to wage war and jihad and | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
we know they are starting to come back and that is the problem. We are | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
working on that. When you speak of an enormous number, it is less than | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
2000 people out of 66 million. That does not sound like a lot to you? Of | :16:38. | :16:45. | |
course, but the problem is, we have to search more people than that. | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
Also people who are staying in France can become dangerous. That is | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
the real challenge will be security. We have the following more than | :16:57. | :17:03. | |
10,000. OK, the big question, and this has been attempted by | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
governments on right and left with limited success, is it this idea | :17:07. | :17:13. | |
that you bring in the Muslim community, make sure they are not | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
isolated, that you include them, in an inclusive policy? Or is it the | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
policy that says religion in France is separate from the state? Which is | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
the right response? I don't see any contradiction between the two. We | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
have education and public services, civic participation, all of this is | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
open to Muslim citizens. Actually, many of them do take part. I would | :17:42. | :17:51. | |
say that over 90% of people of Muslim culture, it does not mean | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
that they are actually practising their religion, but we assess that | :17:55. | :18:03. | |
probably less than 15% of people from Muslim... You know... Why do | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
you make the distinction between those who are cultural Muslims and | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
those who are religious Muslims? Why? There are people who don't | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
practice and don't go to the mosque every week so they are not mainly | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
subject to religious influence. Even the ones who become jihadists have | :18:25. | :18:31. | |
not necessarily been religious or practising for long. Some of them | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
are even converts. One last point, we heard from Rachida Dati about her | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
thoughts that Angela Merkel's open door, generous policy to migrant was | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
a mistake. What do you think France should do? What should it attitude | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
been out refugees? We have a duty, which is a treaty we signed, as your | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
country did, we have simply a rule which obliges us, if we check that | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
they are actually refugees, coming from a dangerous area, we have to | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
accept them. The real fact is that very few of them have asked to come | :19:12. | :19:20. | |
to France, barely 2-3%. It is out of the screen to think that this is the | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
issue really linked to the attacks. Thank you for joining us. | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
Today the epicentre of the investigation into who carried out | :19:30. | :19:31. | |
these attacks shifted to Belgium, and more specifically the Brussels | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
suburb of Molenbeek, where three of those suspected of having played | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
What is it about Belgium that seems to make it such a hotbed of | :19:43. | :19:54. | |
Armed police and explosive experts around an apartment block in | :19:55. | :20:04. | |
Brussels this morning, as the investigation into the Paris a tax | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
continues to spread across Europe. This is where the siege in Molenbeek | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
has been going on. We have seen snipers on ruse and heard what | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
sounded like a number of explosions. The police are not | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
telling us what is happening exactly. No one was arrested in the | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
end. Police were looking for this man, Belgian born Salah Abdeslam, | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
believed to be one of the attackers who fled Paris. Locals who knew him | :20:29. | :20:29. | |
he was shocked. One of his brothers was arrested but | :20:30. | :20:49. | |
released by Belgian police today. I asked in what his message was to the | :20:50. | :20:50. | |
families of the victims. A third brother, Brahim Abdeslam, is | :20:51. | :21:22. | |
the only man to be identified from the group who launched repeated | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
attacks on Paris bar and restaurant goers. The Stade de France suicide | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
bombers included Bill had fee, who had allegedly previously thought in | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
this -- fought in Syria. His fellow bomber arrived as a refugee on a | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
positive fake Syrian passport. Omar Ismail Mostefai from Paris attacked | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
the Bataclan concert venue as did fellow Parisien Samy Amimour. Both | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
are now dead, as is one other as yet unidentified attacker. The alleged | :21:50. | :21:57. | |
mastermind in Syria is one of Belgium's most notorious Janice, who | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
faked his own death to temporarily return to Europe. He even took his | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
13-year-old brother to Isis with him. Neighbours at his father's | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
house told us tonight the family were devastated. One described him | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
as a normal, cannabis smoking young guy before he was radicalised. There | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
are more Belgian jihadis in Syria per capita than any other western | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
country other worrying number of them come from the very small and | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
very multicultural Brussels district of Molenbeek. A lot of the people | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
here resent the association between them and terrorism but the area has | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
been linked to a series of attacks, even long before this. Last year, an | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
attack on the Jewish Museum in Brussels was carried out by a French | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
man who had spent time here. In January, police killed two men from | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
Molenbeek in a shoot out. They were suspected of plotting terrorist | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
attacks in Belgium. And a foiled attack on the train from Amsterdam | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
to Paris was also linked to the area. So what is going on in | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
Molenbeek? Many say it is wrong to label Molenbeek a kind of jihadi | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
capital but it has 40% youth unemployment, discrimination and | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
crime. That makes people more vulnerable to radicalisation. Some | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
of these people are involved in criminal activities, they are | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
members of certain groups or gangs. Then something happens in their | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
life, it could be trauma or something that changes the way they | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
look at life. The logical step for them is to look for Atonement, to | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
become better Muslims. They come into contact with certain radical | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
elements that promised them many things, like Atonement and | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
forgiveness for everything they have done and they promised them | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
paradise. Local young Muslims say they often felt harassed by the | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
police but were also horrified by the recent attacks. | :23:49. | :24:02. | |
What about the authorities here? I spoke to the woman in charge of | :24:03. | :24:10. | |
social cohesion. TRANSLATION: I raised the alarm in 2010, said there | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
was a time bomb in the district. We have said for a long time that the | :24:15. | :24:17. | |
problem is social order. All we needed to do was keep the young | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
people occupied, get them playing football, going to the cinema, but | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
we did not help them find a place in society. Horrific violence always | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
leads to the question why. But for 129 victims, the answers are too | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
late. Reporting from Molenbeek, Secunder | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
Kermani, there. Let's go back to Nick Hopkins because the Belgian | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
authorities are trying to combat the problems they are facing. What are | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
they doing? Well, you are absolutely right, they realised they had a | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
problem and they were the first country in Europe to do a proper | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
audit of their citizens that had gone to Syria and they were pretty | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
horrified at what they discovered. There are more people going out from | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
Belgium proportionately than other European countries. But they have | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
tried to be more aggressive in their counterterrorism strategy in the | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
last year. There was a showcase trial in Brussels earlier this year | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
which had 46 defendants and only eight of them were only physically | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
in the dock because the rest of them, many of them were thought to | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
be fighting in Syria. One counterterrorism expert I spoke to | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
earlier said that the problem is not that Belgium cannot do this kind of | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
counterterrorism activity, but it is simply that they were behind the | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
curve and they can't get ahead of it and they are being overwhelmed. | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
Another thing I would say is that the Belgian authorities will argue, | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
with some reason, that many of the people who have been radicalised in | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
Brussels have listened to extremists from countries like Britain. I'm | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
sure we will be hearing more about that in the coming days. Nick | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
Hopkins, thank you. The manhunt may be moving the story on or elsewhere | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
but as you can imagine, the grief right here in the heart of Paris is | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
extraordinary raw. Our heart of this story is the lost lives, the broken | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
hearts and they destroyed families of the victims. Lewis Goodall has | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
been speaking to one of them. Laurent Lafont-Battesti was in the | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
Bataclan concert hall with a friend and was forced to flee onto the roof | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
with dozens of others after he heard We decided to sit on the balcony | :26:26. | :26:41. | |
because the public of this band is younger than us. I think down there, | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
they were dancing. We wanted to be in a quiet place. People were really | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
enjoying the concert. Everyone was in a very good mood. After half an | :26:55. | :27:06. | |
hour, we heard some bands, and so the band -- some bangs, and the band | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
were running away behind the stage. At first, I thought it was a game, | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
part of the show, that they would be back in five minutes, only to make | :27:15. | :27:22. | |
us scream. At the bangs went on and on. People around me were more and | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
more afraid. Some of them left the balcony very soon. Maybe they took | :27:28. | :27:36. | |
the wrong decision because they went downstairs and the terrorists were | :27:37. | :27:44. | |
there. There was a window, where you could get access to the roof. | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
Someone before me succeeded in opening the window. There was a | :27:50. | :27:58. | |
group of, I don't know, 40-50 people, trying to access the roof. | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
We have tried to be gentle men, so it was ladies first to the roof. In | :28:03. | :28:11. | |
the meantime, we were very afraid because the sounds of the bangs were | :28:12. | :28:19. | |
going on and on. Very quickly, I have seen very beautiful things at | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
that moment, very courageous behaviours, people trying to help | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
each other because it was very high, the window was very high. It | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
was difficult to access. After, when we were on the roof, we got to an | :28:32. | :28:44. | |
apartment, which was not on the top of the next building, 52, you have | :28:45. | :28:52. | |
yourself, so you receive news, people calling you. I had my mother | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
on the phone because all the news channels on TV were talking about | :28:57. | :29:04. | |
this. I was... Sincerely, I was more worried about my mother, really, | :29:05. | :29:13. | |
because I care about. I was wondering why. | :29:14. | :29:15. | |
Of course, those people are monsters. | :29:16. | :29:24. | |
But maybe it is my way to try to save me, to think | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
The survivor of the Bataclan concert hall siege, there, Laurent. While | :29:29. | :29:47. | |
France has declared a state of war, what of its political ally, Britain? | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
Our political editor Allegra Stratton has been looking at how the | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
British Parliament has reacted to events in Paris over the weekend. | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
How do you feel those discussions at the very top of both political | :30:00. | :30:01. | |
parties have gone? David Cameron reiterated his | :30:02. | :30:12. | |
position. He doesn't believe he has a Parliamentary majority to have | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
strikes in Syria. And there seems to be a chasm between the two leaders. | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
In particular, Jeremy Corbyn this afternoon told our colleague, the | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
BBC's political editor, that he believed that British police forces | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
shouldn't have the right to shoot-to-kill on Britain's streets. | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
And for many Labour MPs, they were very unhappy. In a meeting this | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
afternoon with the party, they attacked him. In fact, one person | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
told me that they shouted him down. It was yet another testive exchange. | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
But it serves to underline there is a huge difference. That said, I have | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
been told that the events in Paris have shifted opinion within the | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
Labour Party. One source told me there are now more Labour MPs minded | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
to support David Cameron. If he could come up with a political | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
solution alongside a military one, they would be reluctant but they | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
would support him and defy Jeremy Corbyn. That said the same sources | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
say the numbers of Labour MPs are not yet enough to deliver David | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
Cameron that Parliamentary win. So there's been a shift but the Prime | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
Minister is right to call it as he is doing, he wouldn't yet win by | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
enough. Friends of his have told me he doesn't just want a wafer-thin | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
win, which he would have at the moment, he would want to say British | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
public opinion is behind him and that isn't clear right now. That's | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
the political side of the discourse. What about the operational side, if | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
I can call it, do they think there are procedures in place for | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
something like this London? They seem to think they are on the front | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
foot. More funding announced in recent days. I think we'll have more | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
announcements on the horizon. One question is whether they would rush | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
through the surveillance measures on the horizon, not due to come in for | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
a while. I've been told this evening, there is no rush to put | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
this through, whatever else you might be told. There is a | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
vulnerability for people inside Government. They are worried that | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
possible cuts that we may hear next Wednesday when we have the Spending | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
Review to the police forces will expose them. The Labour Party have | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
been attacking the Conservatives about this today and many Tories do | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
actually think this is quite a shrewd area for them to go on. One | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
senior source said to me, with the fight against Isil we have the | :32:32. | :32:34. | |
surveillance measures in place. A lot of these suspects were known to | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
people. What we don't have is the resources. To be cutting the police | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
forces is wrong. Thank you very much. Well, as so often, after | :32:45. | :32:52. | |
horrific events like this, there has been plenty | :32:53. | :32:54. | |
of rhetoric here about defiance, about not letting | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
But as the shock of France's worst post-war attack | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
begins to subside, how will the events of last Friday night affect | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
I've been assessing a little bit of the mood on the streets of Paris | :33:06. | :33:14. | |
this weekend. This is a city trying to get back to | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
normal. But there's nothing normal about this Monday morning in Paris. | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
It's almost a relief when, at midday, the city stops to recognise | :33:27. | :33:38. | |
that. BELL TOLLS Raw grief, incomprehension and | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
anger. At the flower shop, where mourners and supporters come to | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
purchase a single white rose, we're told they've never been busier. They | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
ran out of wrapping paper two full days ago. The city understandably | :33:52. | :33:58. | |
wants to be defiant. What's been noticeably absent this time round is | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
any sense of communal mourning, because of this ongoing state of | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
emergency declared, there's been literally nowhere and no way for | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
people to gather together in the solidarity of grief. That means | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
there hasn't been the same sense of national cohesion that we saw so | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
firmly and so proudly after the attacks of Charlie Hebdo back in | :34:20. | :34:27. | |
January. Then, as I remember well, La Place de la Republique was full. | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
They came in their thousands and marched on Paris for those gunned | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
down at their place of work. This time round, security forces have | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
warned people not to congregate too publicly. There's that air of | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
unfinished business, particularly whilst the han hunt for -- manhunt | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
for one of the attackers is still full on. Overnight, with military | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
might, France proved what the president meant when he called | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
Friday's attack "war". There is fear. People are among themselves | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
talking about how to live with fear, without being paralysed by fear, as | :35:02. | :35:09. | |
fear is a kind of part of a new norm, a new normal. You know, I | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
think people really make a point, as in January, to continue to lead a | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
normal life. There's this general understanding that if you break with | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
your habits and if you don't, you know, if you stay indoors, if you | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
don't go out, don't go to restaurants, don't go to concert | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
halls any more, it means they've won. Last night, a wave of panic | :35:34. | :35:41. | |
throughout the capital. Sirens and police responded to what we now know | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
were false alarms, but at the time they certainty people running. This | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
square has once again, though, become a make-shift shrine to the | :35:53. | :36:00. | |
victims. This banker by trade was offering hugs to passers-by. Free | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
market compassion wholesale to anyone who needed it. It's free. | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
Sometimes they cry. Sometimes they just talk to us. They say we have to | :36:09. | :36:17. | |
be strong. They will not, we will not be terrorised by them. They kill | :36:18. | :36:27. | |
people from my age and just before the attack, I was having a beer with | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
one of my friends in a cafe, you know? So, it could have been me. So | :36:33. | :36:39. | |
back to that question of defiance then. France will strive to prove as | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
never before that it can't be divided along lines of race or | :36:45. | :36:46. | |
religion, but without the opportunity to show a nation united, | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
it gets harder and harder to put those fears of difference aside. | :36:51. | :37:00. | |
The former assistant managing editor is with me now and joining me now to | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
talk a bit about the sense of national cohesion and the importance | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
really. If you feeling it as strongly this time around as we all | :37:09. | :37:16. | |
felt it after Charlie Hebdo and the hashtag we had then. We get used to | :37:17. | :37:24. | |
a thing the second time. I think you never get used to such horrific | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
things. Probably people have been shocked for less longer time. I mean | :37:31. | :37:37. | |
and the political reactions have come in a quicker way. Too fast? I | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
don't know. It's just the way it is. It's very important to have a | :37:43. | :37:50. | |
political debate as well. These things are not ordered. It's just | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
the way people react. I think it's obviously different because the | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
first time in January the attacks focussed on the newspaper and on the | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
Jewish community. This time, it was felt like an attack on the whole | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
French society or at least Parisian society. It's like the quote about | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
the Nazis, that first they come for one group, then they come for | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
another group. I guess what Friday told us was actually, they're here | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
for everyone. They're here for the young people particularly. I would | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
beg to differ in the sense that it is true they are of a different | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
nature, but the Charlie Hebdo people we had grown up with them. So it was | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
very, you know, they were very dear to us. They were people in their | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
80s, they had shaped the political humour of generations of French | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
people. Then they come to our Jewish compatriots, which was appalling and | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
something which touch us deeply because of terrible memories of what | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
we call the dark years. I don't think it's very different. Now it's | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
different because they attacked Parisians at large, but it's the | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
same narrative. They hate democracy. They hate civilisation, that's what | :39:09. | :39:15. | |
France and Paris are targeted because they are among the | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
birthplace of civilisation, enlightenment, scepticism and | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
pleasure. And if Isis can create schisms in a society that's the work | :39:26. | :39:28. | |
done for them tenfold. Do you fear that's what will happen now, there | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
will be divides, along race or religion? Or difference of foreign | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
policy even. I fear it, really strongly. I think what happen is | :39:39. | :39:46. | |
that they, terrorism is always part of the message in it. The last time | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
it was about freedom of expression. It was the Jewish community. This | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
time it's about youth. It's about way of lives. I think they decided | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
to hit a very specific part of Paris, besides the Stade de France. | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
It's not like the kind of terrorism we're used to, like if they were | :40:11. | :40:19. | |
going to hit the chaps Lee za, some place -- Champs Elysees, some place | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
that is famous. This message was for the French people. It was a real | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
lively part of Paris that was attacked. Do you think this will | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
send people tumbling towards the right politically? Towards Marine Le | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
Pen and the Front National or will it have a reversion effect? We'll | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
see. There are regional elections in a few weeks. You know, the extreme | :40:45. | :40:54. | |
right has existed since, for a long time. Since 1986, I was a teenager | :40:55. | :41:02. | |
then, and France has been moving to the right since. I don't think it's | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
going to enhance our divisions. On the contrary, irthink it's going to | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
unite us more. I'm rather optimistic about the outcome about social | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
cohesion actually. There will be questions about migration policy, | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
about Europe's borders, about how welcoming France should be to those | :41:22. | :41:28. | |
from outside. Yes, but I think we must at least rove sift some of the | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
questioning, the way -- at least resist some of the questioning, the | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
way questions are asked. Do you think you're representative of | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
France? I think I'm representative of some French people who are | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
actually rather left-wing and feel very much committed to civil | :41:45. | :41:52. | |
liberties. I think in some way, the extreme right has already won a | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
battle, which is the battle of the play Jen da. I'm not sure these -- | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
political agenda. I'm not sure these attacks will benefit them in terms | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
of elections. We will see in a few weeks. I'm not sure about that. At | :42:08. | :42:15. | |
least they already won because what Francois Hollande said was | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
unmentionable some weeks ago. Things change quickly. Talking like the | :42:21. | :42:28. | |
American conservatives in some way. He was quite adamant in Versailles | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
saying this is not a war of civilisation because those guys | :42:35. | :42:42. | |
represent no civilisation. It's enemy of civilisation and secondly | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
he said refugees are the target of those people and they are welcome. | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
So it was nice to hear, but it doesn't mean security is not an | :42:51. | :42:58. | |
issue. There is advice for a revision of the constitution because | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
what we have is laws dating back from 1950s, so it has to adapt to | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
the current situation. I think he actually offered a very good balance | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
between security and civil liberties. Now he has to walk that | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
fine line. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Since Friday, | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
we've been learning a little more about some of those people who lost | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
their lives in the violence which cut across this vibrant, | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
cosmopolitan city, the city which invented cafe culture hit in its | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
very street cafes. Here are the faces of just a few of those who | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
lost their lives. Nvment Good night. -- good night. | :43:41. | :43:44. |