24/11/2015 Newsnight


24/11/2015

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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A stab in the back, says Russia as Turkey blows

:00:00.:00:00.

It's the first time a Nato country has shot down a Russian plane

:00:00.:00:12.

in over 60 years, and Russia is warning of "serious consequences" -

:00:13.:00:14.

Is tomorrow's Spending Review the moment George Osborne reshapes the

:00:15.:00:21.

I said "Dad, they're telling us to get under our desks

:00:22.:00:29.

"and put our books over our heads".

:00:30.:00:32.

My dad said "That's not exactly going to be effective

:00:33.:00:34.

"against a 50 megatonne hydrogen bomb".

:00:35.:00:38.

And Hollywood legend Stephen Smith meets the director Steven Spielberg

:00:39.:00:41.

to talk about his new Cold War movie.

:00:42.:00:50.

Today, Russia and Turkey, two of the countries purporting to be

:00:51.:01:03.

Each country issued its own radar pictures showing

:01:04.:01:21.

attacked the Russian bomber to assauge

:01:22.:01:24.

Turkish discontent at Syrian attacks on the Turkomen in Northern Syria.

:01:25.:01:28.

And into this volatile mix may fly British warplanes,

:01:29.:01:32.

if David Cameron wins a House of Commons vote as early as next week.

:01:33.:01:36.

Our Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban takes us through this drama.

:01:37.:01:39.

His piece does contain some distressing images.

:01:40.:01:49.

When two Sukhoi bombers took off this morning from their base, it had

:01:50.:01:56.

been planned like hundreds of previous sorties. The planes flew

:01:57.:01:57.

north to hit groups, not previous sorties. The planes flew

:01:58.:02:01.

to Turkey's frontier. in northern Syria, were very close

:02:02.:02:08.

to Turkish airspace. Turkish F-16s had taken off

:02:09.:02:11.

from Diyarbakir airbase With

:02:12.:02:14.

the Sukhois turning towards Turkish As the second of the jets dipped

:02:15.:02:18.

into Turkish airspace, for just 17 seconds, covering 1.15

:02:19.:02:25.

miles, one of the F-16s fired a Sidewinder air to air missile

:02:26.:02:31.

that struck the Russian jet at 9.24. It plunged

:02:32.:02:36.

into the ground moments later on a Both pilots ejected. As they floated

:02:37.:02:56.

down, rebels shot at them. Russia's first responses came over social

:02:57.:03:00.

media. They denied that the jets were over Turkey, and said ground

:03:01.:03:12.

fire had brought them down. Even as these denials started to circulate,

:03:13.:03:16.

images were emerging of one of the pilots, filmed by the rebels and

:03:17.:03:31.

presumed dead. Allahu Akbar! Cos British Russia attacked from the air

:03:32.:03:35.

against the operation we started to go. Turkish planes immediately

:03:36.:03:42.

brought down the Russian plane. This is part of the parachute of the

:03:43.:03:45.

plane which fell in Syria. Both pilots were captured dead. Our

:03:46.:03:53.

friends brought them. Our friends fired in the air, we all did. They

:03:54.:03:57.

died in the air. Turkey brought down the Russian plane. After it bombed

:03:58.:04:02.

our region and violated the Turkish the Russian plane. After it bombed

:04:03.:04:05.

border, it was bombed by Turkey. the Russian plane. After it bombed

:04:06.:04:07.

After the crew ejected, a Russian rescue mission went into action,

:04:08.:04:12.

looking for the one pilot that they believed was still alive. At around

:04:13.:04:17.

10.30, a pair of rescue helicopters were seen flying over the Turkmen

:04:18.:04:22.

Mountain crash site. President Putin made his first statement.

:04:23.:04:28.

TRANSLATION: Today's event is a stab in the back that has been given to

:04:29.:04:32.

us by the accomplices of terrorists. In Syria, things were going from bad

:04:33.:04:37.

to worse for the Russians. One of the rescue choppers was forced by

:04:38.:04:42.

rebel fire to make an emergency landing. Using an American supplied

:04:43.:04:46.

missile, the Syrians then destroyed it. A second Russian, one of the

:04:47.:05:01.

rescue party, was killed. By the time Russian TV came on air, there

:05:02.:05:05.

was a clear line that Turkey had deliberately engineered this

:05:06.:05:08.

incident. The presenter said it was intended to harm the anti-IS

:05:09.:05:12.

coalition, and interviewees pointed the finger at Turkey's leaders.

:05:13.:05:18.

TRANSLATION: This was not a spontaneous decision. It wasn't just

:05:19.:05:21.

taken at the tactical military level, it was taken at a political

:05:22.:05:25.

level, because these things have to be decided by the country's

:05:26.:05:30.

leadership. Turkey's air force has been used to send a message. Nato

:05:31.:05:35.

publicly backs its member in defending sovereign airspace, but

:05:36.:05:39.

privately, many allies on the other President Erdogan's escalation.

:05:40.:05:45.

Tonight, he was defiant in defence of the air force and in his support

:05:46.:05:48.

of Syrian Turkmen across the border. TRANSLATION: We are feeling

:05:49.:05:57.

distressed for encountering such and in the incident, but the actions

:05:58.:06:00.

were fully in line with Turkey's rules of engagement that have been

:06:01.:06:04.

declared before. Turkey does not harbour enmity towards its

:06:05.:06:07.

neighbours. Russia this evening said it will fly future strike missions

:06:08.:06:13.

over Syria with fighter escorts ma and has broken off liaison with

:06:14.:06:17.

Turkey. Today's crisis has been managed, just. But another could be

:06:18.:06:20.

around the corner. In a moment, we'll discuss

:06:21.:06:22.

the potential consequences of this, but first to a former Turkish

:06:23.:06:28.

ambassador to Nato, Onur Oymen. When I spoke to him earlier from

:06:29.:06:31.

Istanbul, I started by asking him what he thought of Vladimir Putin

:06:32.:06:34.

calling the shooting down of Russian Well, I believe that is mistaken,

:06:35.:06:52.

because the problem is that it is a sensitive area. In the last two

:06:53.:06:56.

months, there were three violations of Turkish airspace and it is too

:06:57.:07:01.

much. Turkish aircraft acted according to rules. They imposed

:07:02.:07:12.

warnings. The general said, we warned ten times.

:07:13.:07:13.

Each country has to protect its airspace and I remember that

:07:14.:07:17.

some years ago, the Russians shot a Korean civilian commercial

:07:18.:07:20.

aircraft because it was flying in a sensitive security zone.

:07:21.:07:24.

And the Americans have shot down an Iranian passenger plane because

:07:25.:07:27.

Can you tell me why, there seems to be some suggestion

:07:28.:07:35.

that in Turkey, a number of people are quite happy about this action

:07:36.:07:39.

because Turkmen in Syria have been targeted for bombs by the Russians?

:07:40.:07:46.

Turkmen have been living in this area for centuries and

:07:47.:07:54.

in the recent months and weeks, they were attacked by Assad forces

:07:55.:07:59.

and they're fighting Assad forces in the area to protect their villages.

:08:00.:08:06.

I do not believe that it would be appropriate to link

:08:07.:08:13.

So what do you think the impact of this event will be

:08:14.:08:20.

Turkey is also fighting and have detained some Isis members

:08:21.:08:31.

Imagine, we have a 910 kilometres long border with Syria.

:08:32.:08:41.

So we have all the reasons to be extremely careful and we are

:08:42.:08:49.

confident that if the international community work together,

:08:50.:08:52.

then we will find a way to finish with Isis.

:08:53.:08:54.

Nato has called tonight for a de-escalation after this

:08:55.:08:56.

Do you think you can achieve that de-escalation?

:08:57.:09:02.

We have a lot of common interest with Russia,

:09:03.:09:13.

therefore I believe that we can solve this problem and find a way to

:09:14.:09:16.

Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

:09:17.:09:24.

With me now from Washington is Kurt Volker, the former US permanent

:09:25.:09:29.

representative to NATO and from Moscow, Oksana Boyko, a presenter on

:09:30.:09:32.

Oksana Boyko, when Vladimir Putin talks about serious consequences,

:09:33.:09:50.

what is meant by that? I think he is still trying to figure that out. As

:09:51.:09:56.

you pointed out, immediate matters have already been taken and there

:09:57.:09:59.

has been military build-up in the area. From now on, attack our planes

:10:00.:10:05.

will be accompanied by bombers for protection. Russia has also

:10:06.:10:09.

repositioned its cruiser in the Mediterranean Sea. But it is obvious

:10:10.:10:15.

that Russia will have to reassess its relationship with Turkey as well

:10:16.:10:22.

as the Turkish role in this whole nascent coalition to fight Isis. But

:10:23.:10:26.

what exactly will happen is anyone's guess at this point. You talk about

:10:27.:10:32.

the reassessment of relations between Russia and Turkey. I wonder

:10:33.:10:36.

what impact you think this might have on relations between Russia and

:10:37.:10:46.

Nato? Well, we have yet to see that, I guess. The prevalent theory in

:10:47.:10:52.

Moscow is that one of the reasons why Erdogan felt the need to do

:10:53.:10:58.

something like that was to provoke confrontation between Nato and

:10:59.:11:01.

Russia over Syria and provoke Russia into doing his bidding, creating

:11:02.:11:10.

this so-called safe zone in northern Syria where he put, among other

:11:11.:11:16.

things, to clamp down on the Kurdish groups. As far as I know, Washington

:11:17.:11:19.

is still opposed to that because they see Kurds as potential allies

:11:20.:11:27.

in their fight against Isis. But for now, both Nato commanders as well as

:11:28.:11:33.

Nato leaders have been calling on both sides to stay calm. And this is

:11:34.:11:40.

what the Kremlin is trying to do. Kurt Volker, what do you make of

:11:41.:11:45.

Oksana Boyko's analysis? A couple of things. I don't believe that either

:11:46.:11:48.

washer or Turkey has an interest in this escalating into a Russian-

:11:49.:11:53.

Turkish conflict. There will be some hot language and positioning in the

:11:54.:11:56.

next few days. But I don't believe either side wants to have a

:11:57.:12:01.

conflict. I think we will see things stabilise. Secondly, the differences

:12:02.:12:11.

over what should happen next in Syria will persist. Russia will

:12:12.:12:16.

continue to back Assad and to attack rebels fighting Assad, even though

:12:17.:12:20.

they are not Isis. And Turkey will not want to see a sad state in

:12:21.:12:24.

power, but will view Isis as the more critical threat. And I think we

:12:25.:12:29.

will see a play for more European support on Russia's side. We heard

:12:30.:12:34.

some interesting statements from President Hollande on from the

:12:35.:12:37.

German Foreign Minister today, saying that maybe we need to work

:12:38.:12:45.

more closely with Russia. So the irony would be that this is adding

:12:46.:12:50.

to the volatile situation, but Turkey might ironically bring Europe

:12:51.:12:54.

and Russia closer in terms of dealing with Isis? That is right.

:12:55.:13:00.

Seeing a Russian plane downed, nobody wants to see that. We all

:13:01.:13:04.

feel for the pilots, they were just doing their job and now they are

:13:05.:13:11.

dead. That said, seeing a Russian plane shot down will make every

:13:12.:13:15.

European leader want to say, we don't want to see this escalate into

:13:16.:13:19.

a bitter conflict, how do we work with Russia on this? Oksana Boyko,

:13:20.:13:26.

there have been reports, and Nato have said that since October, there

:13:27.:13:32.

have been many violations by Russian planes into Turkish airspace, and we

:13:33.:13:37.

know that Russian aeroplanes often test Nato boundaries. I wonder why

:13:38.:13:44.

this has been happening, what is the purpose of this? Well, that has been

:13:45.:13:54.

happening on all sites. Turkey is itself a frequent violator of other

:13:55.:13:59.

countries 's pace. This summer, it violated Greek airspace around 20

:14:00.:14:07.

times. But there are obviously other ways of dealing with that situation

:14:08.:14:11.

apart from shooting the plane down and killing the pilot. You have also

:14:12.:14:15.

shown to job the pilot's body surrounded by roubles, with them

:14:16.:14:20.

proposing to burn the body. Imagine what would happen to an American or

:14:21.:14:24.

British audience seeing their pilots' bodies being treated in that

:14:25.:14:28.

way. I want to remind you that in Syria, the Americans and the British

:14:29.:14:31.

will be operating without a Syrian mandate. So the Syrian air force has

:14:32.:14:37.

the right to do the same, but of course, I hope they will refrain

:14:38.:14:43.

from that. Coming back to your question, there have been many other

:14:44.:14:50.

means for the Turkish sites to escort the Russian plane out of its

:14:51.:14:53.

airspace if it violated Turkish airspace, which is still debatable.

:14:54.:14:57.

President Obama said earlier today that even American intelligence

:14:58.:15:02.

cannot confirm that. And the Russians deny that. A quick question

:15:03.:15:08.

to both of you. Oksana, there may be a vote in the British Parliament

:15:09.:15:11.

next week on whether the UK should join strikes. In your view, would

:15:12.:15:15.

Britain's involvement in the air over Syria be good or bad?

:15:16.:15:24.

The airspace above Syria is already crowded. The Russians and Americans

:15:25.:15:32.

are there, the Syrians, the French. What we really need at this point is

:15:33.:15:36.

diplomatic support to figure out the rules of engagement to prevent

:15:37.:15:42.

incidents like we had today. I'm not sure in military terms that the UK

:15:43.:15:47.

could add much. But it could do a lot diplomatically. Do you think we

:15:48.:15:52.

should see a British aeroplanes in the skies in Syria? I will agree on

:15:53.:16:02.

this, we do need more coordinated strategy for how to go after Isis.

:16:03.:16:06.

Russia is not really going after Isis, it is backing the President

:16:07.:16:11.

Assad regime which is going to cause more trouble down the line.

:16:12.:16:17.

Including more refugees. If we could pull together a way to go after Isis

:16:18.:16:24.

I think the more capacity we could bring to bear the better. Everyone

:16:25.:16:31.

together, I think Isis is a scourge and dangerous to all of us. We all

:16:32.:16:38.

have professional military is and we can coordinate and avoid these type

:16:39.:16:41.

of incident. Turkey provided a lot of warning to Russia and this is not

:16:42.:16:45.

the first time Russian aeroplanes have violated the airspace in Turkey

:16:46.:16:50.

or with other countries. So I do not expect that to continue, I think

:16:51.:16:54.

Russia will not want to do that. Hopefully this can be a pivot to

:16:55.:16:56.

going after Isis together. You'd have to be living on Mars not

:16:57.:16:59.

to know that tomorrow, the Chancellor

:17:00.:17:02.

will lay out his five year plan in the Spending Review - not least

:17:03.:17:04.

because the House of Lords gave him a bloody nose over his proposal to

:17:05.:17:07.

axe tax credits, leaving him with fewer options to

:17:08.:17:09.

obliterate the deficit by the end of

:17:10.:17:12.

this parliament, a deficit which is George Osborne is planning deep cuts

:17:13.:17:14.

to departments which aren't protected -

:17:15.:17:18.

indeed, the NHS in England and Wales is to get a windfall - but does

:17:19.:17:21.

the real austerity start here? Here's our political editor

:17:22.:17:24.

Allegra Stratton. George Osborne residence is felt all

:17:25.:17:36.

over town right now as he tries to take ?20 billion out of government

:17:37.:17:42.

spending. -- his presence. Tomorrow is his third spending review and

:17:43.:17:46.

possibly his last. His last chance to shape a state in his image before

:17:47.:17:54.

he tries to become leader himself. Over the last six years he has been

:17:55.:17:58.

tagging this government departments, leaving his mark on a series of

:17:59.:18:01.

unprotected departments while political pressures have seen him

:18:02.:18:06.

ring fencing others. International element, NHS, schools, this summer

:18:07.:18:12.

he added defence. We already know much of what he's going to announce.

:18:13.:18:17.

He will increase spending on health service and detect parts of the

:18:18.:18:21.

Department for Education but also more cuts for some other

:18:22.:18:25.

departments. The results of all that is we will see larger cuts to some

:18:26.:18:29.

departments that are left by the Home Office and Department for

:18:30.:18:33.

business, the department that those skills and productivity boosting

:18:34.:18:37.

work. He would have to cut bills by 30% or use of on the pace of cuts.

:18:38.:18:41.

The largest unprotected department is the Department for business and

:18:42.:18:44.

for some time the gossip in Whitehall and even amongst Cabinet

:18:45.:18:49.

ministers is that as the arch free marketeer business secretary Sajid

:18:50.:18:52.

Javid has put forward the most swingeing cuts. 55% cuts to his

:18:53.:18:58.

department has done the rounds as a figure. I am assured by his aides

:18:59.:19:01.

that this is not the case. But you can see the appeal of this. Dig deep

:19:02.:19:06.

in one or a few areas and shield the rest of Whitehall. Just a little

:19:07.:19:10.

bit. The most acute political problem is how to soft and or

:19:11.:19:15.

reverse his tax credit changes. Over at the Home Office he will also have

:19:16.:19:18.

to detail how he is cutting policing was protecting its cousin,

:19:19.:19:20.

counterterrorism. To do this, he may eat into the ?10

:19:21.:19:21.

billion of surplus he planned to If he spends much

:19:22.:19:25.

of the surplus repairing the damage on tax credits, it leaves

:19:26.:19:30.

him little room for manoeuvre What tricks might he have up

:19:31.:19:33.

his sleeve? Will we see charges increase across

:19:34.:19:45.

the public sector, so in a sense we stop using tax funded money going to

:19:46.:19:50.

departments but those departments themselves, though services start

:19:51.:19:54.

charging for their use. We've seen court fees introduced, tuition fees

:19:55.:19:58.

for university 's famously five years ago. Lots of options around

:19:59.:20:02.

that. If George Osborne wants to be Prime Minister at the end of this

:20:03.:20:05.

Parliament, does he need to be more than the Butcher of Whitehall? Of

:20:06.:20:10.

course, he needs to be creating a vision at the same time as cutting

:20:11.:20:14.

the state. But with the idea be? Tomorrow he will tell Parliament he

:20:15.:20:18.

has managed to reform the state alongside reducing its size. But

:20:19.:20:22.

does he need more than that? If I was Chancellor I would make the next

:20:23.:20:28.

leap into the network age. We cannot ever cuts unless we so. Internet

:20:29.:20:32.

gives you the option to do things differently and much better. There

:20:33.:20:35.

is a brilliant example in the Netherlands, the nursing community,

:20:36.:20:40.

they reorganised their model where they had not enough nurses going

:20:41.:20:43.

into homes to care for people and many people doing bureaucracy at the

:20:44.:20:48.

centre. They flip that around and did some basic stuff using the

:20:49.:20:51.

internet as the organising principle. We did some research in

:20:52.:20:54.

the UK to show if we did the same year we would save ?6 billion. This

:20:55.:21:01.

is a matter of extreme urgency. I do not believe we can properly weather

:21:02.:21:04.

the storm that is to come unless we look at these examples extremist

:21:05.:21:12.

seriously. Will it be George Osborne the visionary, painting and primary

:21:13.:21:16.

colours, or the protector or the slayer of public sector waste? Which

:21:17.:21:21.

one of these marks will last the longest?

:21:22.:21:23.

I'm joined now by Isabel Hardman from the Spectator and the

:21:24.:21:25.

What will be the characteristics of George Osborne and his vision of the

:21:26.:21:38.

state after tomorrow? Take a step back and think about what will

:21:39.:21:43.

happen tomorrow. We are halfway through what will be a

:21:44.:21:47.

transformative decade. The UK has come really out of the banking

:21:48.:21:51.

crash, it then staggered through the sharpest spending cuts since the

:21:52.:21:55.

1920s and then George Osborne is going to take the state down to the

:21:56.:22:03.

smallest level since 1948. Smaller than Margaret Thatcher even

:22:04.:22:08.

planned. But there are protected areas, health, defence, education.

:22:09.:22:13.

Those areas will not be reduced. These are massive areas. This is the

:22:14.:22:18.

point at which his mass Brunson 's politics. He wants to do a surplus

:22:19.:22:22.

at the end of the decade. And he also wants to protect big errors are

:22:23.:22:27.

spending so he has to go back to making cuts in the same errors he

:22:28.:22:30.

made cuts in for the past five years. That means cutting the

:22:31.:22:35.

Department for business, the Home Office, the Minister for Justice,

:22:36.:22:39.

local government. Is that the vision you think George Osborne has of the

:22:40.:22:44.

state? I think it is the reality, you have a lopsided state where you

:22:45.:22:49.

have areas protected for political reasons which are not up for debate.

:22:50.:22:56.

So schools for instance. Pre-16 protected, post-16, sixth form

:22:57.:22:59.

colleges, not protected. Social care is not protected. Health is

:23:00.:23:06.

protected so you have people developing acute health problems as

:23:07.:23:09.

a result of cuts in social care funding. But the health budget not

:23:10.:23:14.

up debate. The way you put it it does sound apocalyptic put up but he

:23:15.:23:17.

must have bread that will go down well and

:23:18.:23:22.

where it will go down badly and what the result of political game would

:23:23.:23:26.

be. I do not think the apocalyptic is a good idea. A lot of people made

:23:27.:23:34.

predictions about the effect of the cuts in 2010. But some

:23:35.:23:40.

predictions about the effect of the about. There comes a point at which

:23:41.:23:40.

the about. There comes a point at which

:23:41.:23:46.

if you are ring fencing others. That is the problem, you

:23:47.:23:51.

if you are ring fencing others. That certain areas while saying you have

:23:52.:23:53.

got to cut from others. certain areas while saying you have

:23:54.:23:56.

credits, he was much less certain areas while saying you have

:23:57.:24:00.

sure-footed than it would have been expected and now

:24:01.:24:02.

sure-footed than it would have been reconfigure that. There will

:24:03.:24:05.

sure-footed than it would have been on that tomorrow? The interesting

:24:06.:24:08.

thing about tax credit cuts is it is a demonstration of the kind of

:24:09.:24:14.

thing about tax credit cuts is it is that George Osborne will be forced

:24:15.:24:19.

into more and more over the next few years. If you remember at the start

:24:20.:24:23.

in 2010 he said he would cut tax credit cuts but for the better.

:24:24.:24:25.

in 2010 he said he would cut tax protest. He does it again

:24:26.:24:31.

in 2010 he said he would cut tax but on lower paid people and there

:24:32.:24:35.

is a huge protest. This is what happens when you keep

:24:36.:24:39.

is a huge protest. This is what cuts. What will be the biggest

:24:40.:24:44.

is a huge protest. This is what losers tomorrow? Give us some ideas

:24:45.:24:45.

of the big losers. Local government. losers tomorrow? Give us some ideas

:24:46.:24:50.

Social care and local government. Well looking at this, if this is the

:24:51.:24:54.

manifesto for the Well looking at this, if this is the

:24:55.:25:02.

be Prime Minister, he does not want to be seen as the Butcher but the

:25:03.:25:06.

be Prime Minister, he does not want Britain. What is this meant to say

:25:07.:25:07.

about Britain. What is this meant to say

:25:08.:25:10.

to focus on his vision Britain. What is this meant to say

:25:11.:25:18.

house-building, the living wage, he has to change the tax credits... He

:25:19.:25:26.

pro-business? He has got to show a vision of a chance of a Chancellor

:25:27.:25:29.

who believes in handing things out as well. At the moment he tends to

:25:30.:25:33.

do the handing out announcements dresses ministers tend to do the

:25:34.:25:36.

miserable announcements. You can only sustain loyalty for so long

:25:37.:25:41.

when you keep doing that to business, dashed to ministers. This

:25:42.:25:45.

is a big moment to lay out his vision of what kind of person he

:25:46.:25:50.

would like to preside over. Throughout the past five years there

:25:51.:25:54.

has been an argument over George Osborne, ideologue or pragmatist. Is

:25:55.:25:59.

he just inheriting MS and trying to do is best or does he have a beady

:26:00.:26:03.

eyed vision of state. I do not think he is either, he thinks about the

:26:04.:26:08.

economics of it, I think he is clueless. We should never have been

:26:09.:26:11.

here in the first place, he should have finished his job by now anyway.

:26:12.:26:15.

Instead we have another five years of cuts. The economy, we have this

:26:16.:26:22.

tepid and mediocre growth and people are worse off than before the

:26:23.:26:27.

banking crash. It is unfair to say he is clueless, I think you can make

:26:28.:26:32.

political mistakes as we saw with tax credit cuts. They tend to be

:26:33.:26:35.

when he thinks he's being his most clever. He has not been as clever as

:26:36.:26:45.

he thinks this autumn. Tonight we have the makings of a crisis between

:26:46.:26:54.

Nato and Russia with the downing of a Russian warplanes by Turkish

:26:55.:26:56.

forces. 50 years ago at the height of that

:26:57.:27:07.

conflict it was a US spy plane that That led to the incarcaration

:27:08.:27:11.

of the US pilot Gary Powers and is the setting for Steven

:27:12.:27:15.

Spielberg's new film, Bridge of The film is based on a true story

:27:16.:27:18.

about an American lawyer who went In his only news interview

:27:19.:27:23.

the Oscar-winning director talks divas, Donald Trump and deniable ops

:27:24.:27:26.

with our man we don't You're going to be taking

:27:27.:27:29.

pictures over Soviet territory. Steven Spielberg's new film is

:27:30.:27:34.

a real life Cold War thriller about a downed American U-2 pilot, Gary

:27:35.:27:37.

Powers, and the intrigue involved You're an American,

:27:38.:27:40.

you could well be detained. I had absolutely no idea that

:27:41.:27:46.

this story ever took place. Every American knew that Gary Powers

:27:47.:27:51.

had been shot down and he had been But I did not know

:27:52.:27:57.

about the spy swap or about And we agree to the rules,

:27:58.:28:03.

and that's what makes us Americans. It's all that makes us Americans, so

:28:04.:28:13.

don't tell me there's no rule book. And don't nod at me like that,

:28:14.:28:16.

you son of a bitch. James Donovan, a lawyer who acted

:28:17.:28:19.

as the middleman in the spy swap, is played by Tom Hanks

:28:20.:28:22.

as an all-American family man. Tom Hanks is the kind

:28:23.:28:25.

of moral centre of the film. Some perhaps slightly unkind people

:28:26.:28:38.

have said he's a little too Well, there is no story without, you

:28:39.:28:41.

know, the character that he plays. And the character he plays,

:28:42.:28:46.

he's never quite played anyone I mean, Tom has played, you know,

:28:47.:28:49.

men of principle But he has never played this kind

:28:50.:28:53.

of a ruffian, this kind Have you represented

:28:54.:29:00.

many accused spies? This will be a first for the both

:29:01.:29:04.

of us. Where Mark Rylance got involved, I

:29:05.:29:06.

saw Twelfth Night, and Jerusalem, and

:29:07.:29:12.

was a huge fan of him in theatre. I had offered him Empire Of The Sun

:29:13.:29:16.

when he was 23 years old to play one of the principal characters,

:29:17.:29:20.

and he turned me down! He chose theatre over film

:29:21.:29:22.

in the late '80s. I just simply said,

:29:23.:29:24.

I'm going to try a second time to see

:29:25.:29:37.

if he would play Rudolf Abel. Is there any outcome here where I'm

:29:38.:29:39.

not either detained or shot? The next mistake our countries

:29:40.:29:43.

make could be the last one. Now, a contemporary audience will

:29:44.:29:49.

see this, it's about the Cold War, but they may well be thinking

:29:50.:29:52.

of Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, Have you told that story via

:29:53.:29:56.

the back door, as it were? No, I came through the front door

:29:57.:30:03.

on this movie, and I told all The back door story,

:30:04.:30:06.

I absolutely acknowledge that there are all kinds of relevant parallels

:30:07.:30:11.

to things that are happening today I certainly, you know, can't avoid

:30:12.:30:14.

the fact that we are spying on each other, we're cyberspying on

:30:15.:30:19.

each other more than ever before. You know, there's all kinds of drone

:30:20.:30:23.

overflights taking place today. There were U-2 overflights

:30:24.:30:28.

taking place in the '50s and '60s. So there's a lot of parallels and

:30:29.:30:31.

in a sense, all that made this story more relevant for me

:30:32.:30:35.

in the current context, but didn't convince me to direct

:30:36.:30:37.

it because there was relevance. What convinced me to direct it was,

:30:38.:30:42.

it's just a bloody good story! In the name of God,

:30:43.:30:49.

why aren't we hanging him? Are you comfortable with America's

:30:50.:30:52.

role in the world, the surveillance There was no real, you know,

:30:53.:30:58.

message in Bridge of Spies I didn't make the movie to push

:30:59.:31:07.

my own political agenda out there, because my politics are

:31:08.:31:17.

subliminal through my work. I did it more with Schindler's List,

:31:18.:31:22.

you know. Who I was was relevant, at least what I believed in

:31:23.:31:26.

and how strongly I felt. That came through in

:31:27.:31:31.

Schindler's List. File a grievance with

:31:32.:31:34.

the economic office. A big shot from the SS budget

:31:35.:31:47.

and construction office came to lunch and he told us that to believe

:31:48.:31:56.

a Jewish worker had a place in Reich economics was

:31:57.:32:00.

a treasonable idea. If you have a political agenda,

:32:01.:32:05.

and you really want to turn some heads and change some hearts

:32:06.:32:09.

and minds to believe in the direction you're believing,

:32:10.:32:11.

television is the greatest, you know, conduit for that

:32:12.:32:16.

because it reaches more people. You're not just talking

:32:17.:32:20.

about our show there, are you?! Will you be festooning your Chevy

:32:21.:32:23.

with Donald Trump bumper stickers, What does that mean,

:32:24.:32:32.

festooning my Chevy? I didn't imagine you ran

:32:33.:32:38.

an old pick-up! But what about the Donald,

:32:39.:32:47.

as people persist in calling him? There's a future biopic there,

:32:48.:32:50.

if nothing else, isn't there? I think what will determine the

:32:51.:32:53.

viability and the commerciality of What would you say about

:32:54.:33:00.

the outcome, where's your money? History will tell us what

:33:01.:33:08.

the outcome is. I'm not going to take a position

:33:09.:33:11.

on that right now, except that everybody knows I am

:33:12.:33:16.

a supporter of Hillary Clinton. This is the BBC, an organ of record,

:33:17.:33:19.

so here you can speak freely about the actor who has been

:33:20.:33:22.

the biggest... who has given you the most issues

:33:23.:33:25.

on set. Sharks have given me a big issue

:33:26.:33:28.

on set. Well, actually,

:33:29.:33:33.

you have answered my own question. That's

:33:34.:33:37.

the best answer to that question. The shark broke down because

:33:38.:33:48.

of mechanical problems actually And I just went ahead and made the

:33:49.:33:52.

movie anyway, using the ocean as the I think it cranked up the suspense

:33:53.:33:59.

a lot more. That shark was a

:34:00.:34:04.

complete prima donna! And just would not come out

:34:05.:34:07.

of its dressing room. Its dressing room happened to be

:34:08.:34:09.

the Atlantic Ocean. But we could not get

:34:10.:34:11.

the shark to make an appearance. And I think in a sense,

:34:12.:34:16.

because the shark didn't show up, the shark's no-show saved

:34:17.:34:19.

the movie. when the world's nations gather

:34:20.:34:20.

in Paris next week to thrash out a deal to tackle climate change,

:34:21.:34:30.

in the bank already will be the pledges of around 150 countries

:34:31.:34:33.

on what they are willing to do to It's evidence that at last, things

:34:34.:34:36.

appear to be moving in the direction Our environment analyst

:34:37.:34:41.

Roger Harrabin has been to see how one of the world's poorest countries

:34:42.:34:45.

- Malawi - is offering to play its part in the climate battle

:34:46.:34:48.

by getting renewable energy and reducing deforestation,

:34:49.:34:51.

on condition that rich countries Nine out of ten of people in Malawi

:34:52.:34:53.

have no electricity. He sells the charcoal almost all

:34:54.:35:05.

people here use for cooking. William says he doesn't want to be

:35:06.:35:20.

doing this for a living, She grubs in the dirt

:35:21.:35:37.

for fragments of charcoal to sell. Malawi's carbon emissions

:35:38.:35:49.

from fossil fuel burning are tiny. But bare hills are the result

:35:50.:35:51.

of the charcoal trade. And that is heating

:35:52.:35:58.

the local climate. And soil flushing

:35:59.:36:05.

off deforested hills is also choking That in turn is

:36:06.:36:08.

the country's prime energy supply. Dams like this make 95% of Malawi's

:36:09.:36:15.

electricity. It is one of the cleanest

:36:16.:36:28.

power systems in the world. But silt and debris have shrunk

:36:29.:36:35.

reservoir capacity by two thirds, Man-made problems here are

:36:36.:36:37.

compounded by climate change. So the rains recently have

:36:38.:36:47.

been low and erratic. But back in February,

:36:48.:36:50.

devastating floods strewed debris Like many developing countries,

:36:51.:36:52.

Malawi is in a bind. Suffering already

:36:53.:36:58.

from changing climate, This cooking oil factory is

:36:59.:37:10.

a major employer. But it has suffered from regular

:37:11.:37:13.

blackouts, until industry was Elsewhere, this might be thought

:37:14.:37:26.

a good green solution. But here, it risks even

:37:27.:37:29.

greater deforestation. Some environmentalists in the West,

:37:30.:37:31.

in the UK and America, say we should be getting out of coal, we

:37:32.:37:41.

should not be burning any more coal. Yes, probably, we should not

:37:42.:37:44.

be. But what is the alternative that we

:37:45.:37:53.

could use and run our factories? What is the alternative, what do

:37:54.:37:56.

you suggest we should be doing? Should we be closing

:37:57.:37:59.

down productions There should be some kind

:38:00.:38:00.

of alternate energy source that we If I'm using firewood or I'm using

:38:01.:38:07.

coal, I don't think it makes much Malawi is one

:38:08.:38:13.

of 150 nations pledging to but only

:38:14.:38:19.

if rich nations help to pay. And it says whatever Western

:38:20.:38:30.

environmentalists might think, it also needs two new coal-fired

:38:31.:38:33.

power stations. The Malawi government

:38:34.:38:40.

is still developing. As a developing country, we still

:38:41.:38:43.

need a lot So the government has decided we

:38:44.:38:45.

still need to go We do realise it is one of the

:38:46.:38:49.

main sources of emissions globally. A welcome song to

:38:50.:39:09.

a village that is pioneering simple technology to reduce the destructive

:39:10.:39:12.

demand for wood fuel. They are not the most efficient

:39:13.:39:20.

on the global market, but they are creating jobs

:39:21.:39:26.

and keeping costs down. But at the same time,

:39:27.:39:33.

we have huge deforestation. We therefore need to develop

:39:34.:39:38.

better innovative and sustainable Bolted onto a cook stove,

:39:39.:39:44.

this is a thermoelectric generator. Developed with Irish

:39:45.:39:59.

government funding. Creating a temperature differential

:40:00.:40:03.

between two sheets of metal makes enough electricity to charge a light

:40:04.:40:06.

or phone when you're cooking. And in the darkness, British

:40:07.:40:11.

aid is casting a little light. Six-year-old Rachel's school grades

:40:12.:40:21.

have improved But here is a reality check -

:40:22.:40:25.

most people here can't afford the ?5 lamps

:40:26.:40:34.

and whatever happens in climate negotiations, countless families

:40:35.:40:36.

will still face a mighty challenge Just time for tomorrow's front

:40:37.:40:53.

pages. They all have the dramatic picture of the Russian jet coming

:40:54.:40:59.

down after being hit by the F-16. That is the Independent. Then the

:41:00.:41:07.

Guardian, with two of the Syrian refugees on the front page. And the

:41:08.:41:11.

Times has the parachute of one of the pilots. And looking forward to

:41:12.:41:16.

tomorrow's spending review, the Daily Telegraph. A second SNP MP

:41:17.:41:24.

quits amid inquiry. And the Financial Times, house-building

:41:25.:41:28.

drive at the heart of Osborne was Mike plan.

:41:29.:41:30.

That's all we have time for - good night.

:41:31.:41:49.

Good evening. A split through the rest of the week. Outbreaks of rain

:41:50.:41:59.

and Judy start to the day. But some sunshine. Rain drifting a little

:42:00.:42:07.

further east. Quite mild and 10 degrees but still cloudy for the

:42:08.:42:08.

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