24/11/2015 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

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A stab in the back, says Russia as Turkey blows


It's the first time a Nato country has shot down a Russian plane


in over 60 years, and Russia is warning of "serious consequences" -


Is tomorrow's Spending Review the moment George Osborne reshapes the


I said "Dad, they're telling us to get under our desks


"and put our books over our heads".


My dad said "That's not exactly going to be effective


"against a 50 megatonne hydrogen bomb".


And Hollywood legend Stephen Smith meets the director Steven Spielberg


to talk about his new Cold War movie.


Today, Russia and Turkey, two of the countries purporting to be


Each country issued its own radar pictures showing


attacked the Russian bomber to assauge


Turkish discontent at Syrian attacks on the Turkomen in Northern Syria.


And into this volatile mix may fly British warplanes,


if David Cameron wins a House of Commons vote as early as next week.


Our Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban takes us through this drama.


His piece does contain some distressing images.


When two Sukhoi bombers took off this morning from their base, it had


been planned like hundreds of previous sorties. The planes flew


north to hit groups, not previous sorties. The planes flew


to Turkey's frontier. in northern Syria, were very close


to Turkish airspace. Turkish F-16s had taken off


from Diyarbakir airbase With


the Sukhois turning towards Turkish As the second of the jets dipped


into Turkish airspace, for just 17 seconds, covering 1.15


miles, one of the F-16s fired a Sidewinder air to air missile


that struck the Russian jet at 9.24. It plunged


into the ground moments later on a Both pilots ejected. As they floated


down, rebels shot at them. Russia's first responses came over social


media. They denied that the jets were over Turkey, and said ground


fire had brought them down. Even as these denials started to circulate,


images were emerging of one of the pilots, filmed by the rebels and


presumed dead. Allahu Akbar! Cos British Russia attacked from the air


against the operation we started to go. Turkish planes immediately


brought down the Russian plane. This is part of the parachute of the


plane which fell in Syria. Both pilots were captured dead. Our


friends brought them. Our friends fired in the air, we all did. They


died in the air. Turkey brought down the Russian plane. After it bombed


our region and violated the Turkish the Russian plane. After it bombed


border, it was bombed by Turkey. the Russian plane. After it bombed


After the crew ejected, a Russian rescue mission went into action,


looking for the one pilot that they believed was still alive. At around


10.30, a pair of rescue helicopters were seen flying over the Turkmen


Mountain crash site. President Putin made his first statement.


TRANSLATION: Today's event is a stab in the back that has been given to


us by the accomplices of terrorists. In Syria, things were going from bad


to worse for the Russians. One of the rescue choppers was forced by


rebel fire to make an emergency landing. Using an American supplied


missile, the Syrians then destroyed it. A second Russian, one of the


rescue party, was killed. By the time Russian TV came on air, there


was a clear line that Turkey had deliberately engineered this


incident. The presenter said it was intended to harm the anti-IS


coalition, and interviewees pointed the finger at Turkey's leaders.


TRANSLATION: This was not a spontaneous decision. It wasn't just


taken at the tactical military level, it was taken at a political


level, because these things have to be decided by the country's


leadership. Turkey's air force has been used to send a message. Nato


publicly backs its member in defending sovereign airspace, but


privately, many allies on the other President Erdogan's escalation.


Tonight, he was defiant in defence of the air force and in his support


of Syrian Turkmen across the border. TRANSLATION: We are feeling


distressed for encountering such and in the incident, but the actions


were fully in line with Turkey's rules of engagement that have been


declared before. Turkey does not harbour enmity towards its


neighbours. Russia this evening said it will fly future strike missions


over Syria with fighter escorts ma and has broken off liaison with


Turkey. Today's crisis has been managed, just. But another could be


around the corner. In a moment, we'll discuss


the potential consequences of this, but first to a former Turkish


ambassador to Nato, Onur Oymen. When I spoke to him earlier from


Istanbul, I started by asking him what he thought of Vladimir Putin


calling the shooting down of Russian Well, I believe that is mistaken,


because the problem is that it is a sensitive area. In the last two


months, there were three violations of Turkish airspace and it is too


much. Turkish aircraft acted according to rules. They imposed


warnings. The general said, we warned ten times.


Each country has to protect its airspace and I remember that


some years ago, the Russians shot a Korean civilian commercial


aircraft because it was flying in a sensitive security zone.


And the Americans have shot down an Iranian passenger plane because


Can you tell me why, there seems to be some suggestion


that in Turkey, a number of people are quite happy about this action


because Turkmen in Syria have been targeted for bombs by the Russians?


Turkmen have been living in this area for centuries and


in the recent months and weeks, they were attacked by Assad forces


and they're fighting Assad forces in the area to protect their villages.


I do not believe that it would be appropriate to link


So what do you think the impact of this event will be


Turkey is also fighting and have detained some Isis members


Imagine, we have a 910 kilometres long border with Syria.


So we have all the reasons to be extremely careful and we are


confident that if the international community work together,


then we will find a way to finish with Isis.


Nato has called tonight for a de-escalation after this


Do you think you can achieve that de-escalation?


We have a lot of common interest with Russia,


therefore I believe that we can solve this problem and find a way to


Thank you very much for joining us tonight.


With me now from Washington is Kurt Volker, the former US permanent


representative to NATO and from Moscow, Oksana Boyko, a presenter on


Oksana Boyko, when Vladimir Putin talks about serious consequences,


what is meant by that? I think he is still trying to figure that out. As


you pointed out, immediate matters have already been taken and there


has been military build-up in the area. From now on, attack our planes


will be accompanied by bombers for protection. Russia has also


repositioned its cruiser in the Mediterranean Sea. But it is obvious


that Russia will have to reassess its relationship with Turkey as well


as the Turkish role in this whole nascent coalition to fight Isis. But


what exactly will happen is anyone's guess at this point. You talk about


the reassessment of relations between Russia and Turkey. I wonder


what impact you think this might have on relations between Russia and


Nato? Well, we have yet to see that, I guess. The prevalent theory in


Moscow is that one of the reasons why Erdogan felt the need to do


something like that was to provoke confrontation between Nato and


Russia over Syria and provoke Russia into doing his bidding, creating


this so-called safe zone in northern Syria where he put, among other


things, to clamp down on the Kurdish groups. As far as I know, Washington


is still opposed to that because they see Kurds as potential allies


in their fight against Isis. But for now, both Nato commanders as well as


Nato leaders have been calling on both sides to stay calm. And this is


what the Kremlin is trying to do. Kurt Volker, what do you make of


Oksana Boyko's analysis? A couple of things. I don't believe that either


washer or Turkey has an interest in this escalating into a Russian-


Turkish conflict. There will be some hot language and positioning in the


next few days. But I don't believe either side wants to have a


conflict. I think we will see things stabilise. Secondly, the differences


over what should happen next in Syria will persist. Russia will


continue to back Assad and to attack rebels fighting Assad, even though


they are not Isis. And Turkey will not want to see a sad state in


power, but will view Isis as the more critical threat. And I think we


will see a play for more European support on Russia's side. We heard


some interesting statements from President Hollande on from the


German Foreign Minister today, saying that maybe we need to work


more closely with Russia. So the irony would be that this is adding


to the volatile situation, but Turkey might ironically bring Europe


and Russia closer in terms of dealing with Isis? That is right.


Seeing a Russian plane downed, nobody wants to see that. We all


feel for the pilots, they were just doing their job and now they are


dead. That said, seeing a Russian plane shot down will make every


European leader want to say, we don't want to see this escalate into


a bitter conflict, how do we work with Russia on this? Oksana Boyko,


there have been reports, and Nato have said that since October, there


have been many violations by Russian planes into Turkish airspace, and we


know that Russian aeroplanes often test Nato boundaries. I wonder why


this has been happening, what is the purpose of this? Well, that has been


happening on all sites. Turkey is itself a frequent violator of other


countries 's pace. This summer, it violated Greek airspace around 20


times. But there are obviously other ways of dealing with that situation


apart from shooting the plane down and killing the pilot. You have also


shown to job the pilot's body surrounded by roubles, with them


proposing to burn the body. Imagine what would happen to an American or


British audience seeing their pilots' bodies being treated in that


way. I want to remind you that in Syria, the Americans and the British


will be operating without a Syrian mandate. So the Syrian air force has


the right to do the same, but of course, I hope they will refrain


from that. Coming back to your question, there have been many other


means for the Turkish sites to escort the Russian plane out of its


airspace if it violated Turkish airspace, which is still debatable.


President Obama said earlier today that even American intelligence


cannot confirm that. And the Russians deny that. A quick question


to both of you. Oksana, there may be a vote in the British Parliament


next week on whether the UK should join strikes. In your view, would


Britain's involvement in the air over Syria be good or bad?


The airspace above Syria is already crowded. The Russians and Americans


are there, the Syrians, the French. What we really need at this point is


diplomatic support to figure out the rules of engagement to prevent


incidents like we had today. I'm not sure in military terms that the UK


could add much. But it could do a lot diplomatically. Do you think we


should see a British aeroplanes in the skies in Syria? I will agree on


this, we do need more coordinated strategy for how to go after Isis.


Russia is not really going after Isis, it is backing the President


Assad regime which is going to cause more trouble down the line.


Including more refugees. If we could pull together a way to go after Isis


I think the more capacity we could bring to bear the better. Everyone


together, I think Isis is a scourge and dangerous to all of us. We all


have professional military is and we can coordinate and avoid these type


of incident. Turkey provided a lot of warning to Russia and this is not


the first time Russian aeroplanes have violated the airspace in Turkey


or with other countries. So I do not expect that to continue, I think


Russia will not want to do that. Hopefully this can be a pivot to


going after Isis together. You'd have to be living on Mars not


to know that tomorrow, the Chancellor


will lay out his five year plan in the Spending Review - not least


because the House of Lords gave him a bloody nose over his proposal to


axe tax credits, leaving him with fewer options to


obliterate the deficit by the end of


this parliament, a deficit which is George Osborne is planning deep cuts


to departments which aren't protected -


indeed, the NHS in England and Wales is to get a windfall - but does


the real austerity start here? Here's our political editor


Allegra Stratton. George Osborne residence is felt all


over town right now as he tries to take ?20 billion out of government


spending. -- his presence. Tomorrow is his third spending review and


possibly his last. His last chance to shape a state in his image before


he tries to become leader himself. Over the last six years he has been


tagging this government departments, leaving his mark on a series of


unprotected departments while political pressures have seen him


ring fencing others. International element, NHS, schools, this summer


he added defence. We already know much of what he's going to announce.


He will increase spending on health service and detect parts of the


Department for Education but also more cuts for some other


departments. The results of all that is we will see larger cuts to some


departments that are left by the Home Office and Department for


business, the department that those skills and productivity boosting


work. He would have to cut bills by 30% or use of on the pace of cuts.


The largest unprotected department is the Department for business and


for some time the gossip in Whitehall and even amongst Cabinet


ministers is that as the arch free marketeer business secretary Sajid


Javid has put forward the most swingeing cuts. 55% cuts to his


department has done the rounds as a figure. I am assured by his aides


that this is not the case. But you can see the appeal of this. Dig deep


in one or a few areas and shield the rest of Whitehall. Just a little


bit. The most acute political problem is how to soft and or


reverse his tax credit changes. Over at the Home Office he will also have


to detail how he is cutting policing was protecting its cousin,


counterterrorism. To do this, he may eat into the ?10


billion of surplus he planned to If he spends much


of the surplus repairing the damage on tax credits, it leaves


him little room for manoeuvre What tricks might he have up


his sleeve? Will we see charges increase across


the public sector, so in a sense we stop using tax funded money going to


departments but those departments themselves, though services start


charging for their use. We've seen court fees introduced, tuition fees


for university 's famously five years ago. Lots of options around


that. If George Osborne wants to be Prime Minister at the end of this


Parliament, does he need to be more than the Butcher of Whitehall? Of


course, he needs to be creating a vision at the same time as cutting


the state. But with the idea be? Tomorrow he will tell Parliament he


has managed to reform the state alongside reducing its size. But


does he need more than that? If I was Chancellor I would make the next


leap into the network age. We cannot ever cuts unless we so. Internet


gives you the option to do things differently and much better. There


is a brilliant example in the Netherlands, the nursing community,


they reorganised their model where they had not enough nurses going


into homes to care for people and many people doing bureaucracy at the


centre. They flip that around and did some basic stuff using the


internet as the organising principle. We did some research in


the UK to show if we did the same year we would save ?6 billion. This


is a matter of extreme urgency. I do not believe we can properly weather


the storm that is to come unless we look at these examples extremist


seriously. Will it be George Osborne the visionary, painting and primary


colours, or the protector or the slayer of public sector waste? Which


one of these marks will last the longest?


I'm joined now by Isabel Hardman from the Spectator and the


What will be the characteristics of George Osborne and his vision of the


state after tomorrow? Take a step back and think about what will


happen tomorrow. We are halfway through what will be a


transformative decade. The UK has come really out of the banking


crash, it then staggered through the sharpest spending cuts since the


1920s and then George Osborne is going to take the state down to the


smallest level since 1948. Smaller than Margaret Thatcher even


planned. But there are protected areas, health, defence, education.


Those areas will not be reduced. These are massive areas. This is the


point at which his mass Brunson 's politics. He wants to do a surplus


at the end of the decade. And he also wants to protect big errors are


spending so he has to go back to making cuts in the same errors he


made cuts in for the past five years. That means cutting the


Department for business, the Home Office, the Minister for Justice,


local government. Is that the vision you think George Osborne has of the


state? I think it is the reality, you have a lopsided state where you


have areas protected for political reasons which are not up for debate.


So schools for instance. Pre-16 protected, post-16, sixth form


colleges, not protected. Social care is not protected. Health is


protected so you have people developing acute health problems as


a result of cuts in social care funding. But the health budget not


up debate. The way you put it it does sound apocalyptic put up but he


must have bread that will go down well and


where it will go down badly and what the result of political game would


be. I do not think the apocalyptic is a good idea. A lot of people made


predictions about the effect of the cuts in 2010. But some


predictions about the effect of the about. There comes a point at which


the about. There comes a point at which


if you are ring fencing others. That is the problem, you


if you are ring fencing others. That certain areas while saying you have


got to cut from others. certain areas while saying you have


credits, he was much less certain areas while saying you have


sure-footed than it would have been expected and now


sure-footed than it would have been reconfigure that. There will


sure-footed than it would have been on that tomorrow? The interesting


thing about tax credit cuts is it is a demonstration of the kind of


thing about tax credit cuts is it is that George Osborne will be forced


into more and more over the next few years. If you remember at the start


in 2010 he said he would cut tax credit cuts but for the better.


in 2010 he said he would cut tax protest. He does it again


in 2010 he said he would cut tax but on lower paid people and there


is a huge protest. This is what happens when you keep


is a huge protest. This is what cuts. What will be the biggest


is a huge protest. This is what losers tomorrow? Give us some ideas


of the big losers. Local government. losers tomorrow? Give us some ideas


Social care and local government. Well looking at this, if this is the


manifesto for the Well looking at this, if this is the


be Prime Minister, he does not want to be seen as the Butcher but the


be Prime Minister, he does not want Britain. What is this meant to say


about Britain. What is this meant to say


to focus on his vision Britain. What is this meant to say


house-building, the living wage, he has to change the tax credits... He


pro-business? He has got to show a vision of a chance of a Chancellor


who believes in handing things out as well. At the moment he tends to


do the handing out announcements dresses ministers tend to do the


miserable announcements. You can only sustain loyalty for so long


when you keep doing that to business, dashed to ministers. This


is a big moment to lay out his vision of what kind of person he


would like to preside over. Throughout the past five years there


has been an argument over George Osborne, ideologue or pragmatist. Is


he just inheriting MS and trying to do is best or does he have a beady


eyed vision of state. I do not think he is either, he thinks about the


economics of it, I think he is clueless. We should never have been


here in the first place, he should have finished his job by now anyway.


Instead we have another five years of cuts. The economy, we have this


tepid and mediocre growth and people are worse off than before the


banking crash. It is unfair to say he is clueless, I think you can make


political mistakes as we saw with tax credit cuts. They tend to be


when he thinks he's being his most clever. He has not been as clever as


he thinks this autumn. Tonight we have the makings of a crisis between


Nato and Russia with the downing of a Russian warplanes by Turkish


forces. 50 years ago at the height of that


conflict it was a US spy plane that That led to the incarcaration


of the US pilot Gary Powers and is the setting for Steven


Spielberg's new film, Bridge of The film is based on a true story


about an American lawyer who went In his only news interview


the Oscar-winning director talks divas, Donald Trump and deniable ops


with our man we don't You're going to be taking


pictures over Soviet territory. Steven Spielberg's new film is


a real life Cold War thriller about a downed American U-2 pilot, Gary


Powers, and the intrigue involved You're an American,


you could well be detained. I had absolutely no idea that


this story ever took place. Every American knew that Gary Powers


had been shot down and he had been But I did not know


about the spy swap or about And we agree to the rules,


and that's what makes us Americans. It's all that makes us Americans, so


don't tell me there's no rule book. And don't nod at me like that,


you son of a bitch. James Donovan, a lawyer who acted


as the middleman in the spy swap, is played by Tom Hanks


as an all-American family man. Tom Hanks is the kind


of moral centre of the film. Some perhaps slightly unkind people


have said he's a little too Well, there is no story without, you


know, the character that he plays. And the character he plays,


he's never quite played anyone I mean, Tom has played, you know,


men of principle But he has never played this kind


of a ruffian, this kind Have you represented


many accused spies? This will be a first for the both


of us. Where Mark Rylance got involved, I


saw Twelfth Night, and Jerusalem, and


was a huge fan of him in theatre. I had offered him Empire Of The Sun


when he was 23 years old to play one of the principal characters,


and he turned me down! He chose theatre over film


in the late '80s. I just simply said,


I'm going to try a second time to see


if he would play Rudolf Abel. Is there any outcome here where I'm


not either detained or shot? The next mistake our countries


make could be the last one. Now, a contemporary audience will


see this, it's about the Cold War, but they may well be thinking


of Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, Have you told that story via


the back door, as it were? No, I came through the front door


on this movie, and I told all The back door story,


I absolutely acknowledge that there are all kinds of relevant parallels


to things that are happening today I certainly, you know, can't avoid


the fact that we are spying on each other, we're cyberspying on


each other more than ever before. You know, there's all kinds of drone


overflights taking place today. There were U-2 overflights


taking place in the '50s and '60s. So there's a lot of parallels and


in a sense, all that made this story more relevant for me


in the current context, but didn't convince me to direct


it because there was relevance. What convinced me to direct it was,


it's just a bloody good story! In the name of God,


why aren't we hanging him? Are you comfortable with America's


role in the world, the surveillance There was no real, you know,


message in Bridge of Spies I didn't make the movie to push


my own political agenda out there, because my politics are


subliminal through my work. I did it more with Schindler's List,


you know. Who I was was relevant, at least what I believed in


and how strongly I felt. That came through in


Schindler's List. File a grievance with


the economic office. A big shot from the SS budget


and construction office came to lunch and he told us that to believe


a Jewish worker had a place in Reich economics was


a treasonable idea. If you have a political agenda,


and you really want to turn some heads and change some hearts


and minds to believe in the direction you're believing,


television is the greatest, you know, conduit for that


because it reaches more people. You're not just talking


about our show there, are you?! Will you be festooning your Chevy


with Donald Trump bumper stickers, What does that mean,


festooning my Chevy? I didn't imagine you ran


an old pick-up! But what about the Donald,


as people persist in calling him? There's a future biopic there,


if nothing else, isn't there? I think what will determine the


viability and the commerciality of What would you say about


the outcome, where's your money? History will tell us what


the outcome is. I'm not going to take a position


on that right now, except that everybody knows I am


a supporter of Hillary Clinton. This is the BBC, an organ of record,


so here you can speak freely about the actor who has been


the biggest... who has given you the most issues


on set. Sharks have given me a big issue


on set. Well, actually,


you have answered my own question. That's


the best answer to that question. The shark broke down because


of mechanical problems actually And I just went ahead and made the


movie anyway, using the ocean as the I think it cranked up the suspense


a lot more. That shark was a


complete prima donna! And just would not come out


of its dressing room. Its dressing room happened to be


the Atlantic Ocean. But we could not get


the shark to make an appearance. And I think in a sense,


because the shark didn't show up, the shark's no-show saved


the movie. when the world's nations gather


in Paris next week to thrash out a deal to tackle climate change,


in the bank already will be the pledges of around 150 countries


on what they are willing to do to It's evidence that at last, things


appear to be moving in the direction Our environment analyst


Roger Harrabin has been to see how one of the world's poorest countries


- Malawi - is offering to play its part in the climate battle


by getting renewable energy and reducing deforestation,


on condition that rich countries Nine out of ten of people in Malawi


have no electricity. He sells the charcoal almost all


people here use for cooking. William says he doesn't want to be


doing this for a living, She grubs in the dirt


for fragments of charcoal to sell. Malawi's carbon emissions


from fossil fuel burning are tiny. But bare hills are the result


of the charcoal trade. And that is heating


the local climate. And soil flushing


off deforested hills is also choking That in turn is


the country's prime energy supply. Dams like this make 95% of Malawi's


electricity. It is one of the cleanest


power systems in the world. But silt and debris have shrunk


reservoir capacity by two thirds, Man-made problems here are


compounded by climate change. So the rains recently have


been low and erratic. But back in February,


devastating floods strewed debris Like many developing countries,


Malawi is in a bind. Suffering already


from changing climate, This cooking oil factory is


a major employer. But it has suffered from regular


blackouts, until industry was Elsewhere, this might be thought


a good green solution. But here, it risks even


greater deforestation. Some environmentalists in the West,


in the UK and America, say we should be getting out of coal, we


should not be burning any more coal. Yes, probably, we should not


be. But what is the alternative that we


could use and run our factories? What is the alternative, what do


you suggest we should be doing? Should we be closing


down productions There should be some kind


of alternate energy source that we If I'm using firewood or I'm using


coal, I don't think it makes much Malawi is one


of 150 nations pledging to but only


if rich nations help to pay. And it says whatever Western


environmentalists might think, it also needs two new coal-fired


power stations. The Malawi government


is still developing. As a developing country, we still


need a lot So the government has decided we


still need to go We do realise it is one of the


main sources of emissions globally. A welcome song to


a village that is pioneering simple technology to reduce the destructive


demand for wood fuel. They are not the most efficient


on the global market, but they are creating jobs


and keeping costs down. But at the same time,


we have huge deforestation. We therefore need to develop


better innovative and sustainable Bolted onto a cook stove,


this is a thermoelectric generator. Developed with Irish


government funding. Creating a temperature differential


between two sheets of metal makes enough electricity to charge a light


or phone when you're cooking. And in the darkness, British


aid is casting a little light. Six-year-old Rachel's school grades


have improved But here is a reality check -


most people here can't afford the ?5 lamps


and whatever happens in climate negotiations, countless families


will still face a mighty challenge Just time for tomorrow's front


pages. They all have the dramatic picture of the Russian jet coming


down after being hit by the F-16. That is the Independent. Then the


Guardian, with two of the Syrian refugees on the front page. And the


Times has the parachute of one of the pilots. And looking forward to


tomorrow's spending review, the Daily Telegraph. A second SNP MP


quits amid inquiry. And the Financial Times, house-building


drive at the heart of Osborne was Mike plan.


That's all we have time for - good night.


Good evening. A split through the rest of the week. Outbreaks of rain


and Judy start to the day. But some sunshine. Rain drifting a little


further east. Quite mild and 10 degrees but still cloudy for the


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