Browse content similar to 02/12/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The debate has run for about 11 hours today, | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
We will bring you the result of the vote on air strikes in Syria. | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
So many questions have been asked today, | :00:20. | :00:21. | |
We will be speaking to the Foreign Secretary and getting lots of | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
As MPs emerge from the chamber, I'll be crunching the numbers | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
What does this mean for military action? | :00:31. | :00:32. | |
And what do the politics of the vote tell us | :00:33. | :00:34. | |
What do British Muslims think about the possibility of air strikes in | :00:35. | :00:46. | |
Syria, I have been speaking with people in high Wycombe. | :00:47. | :00:55. | |
Good evening from Westminster where the results of that key vote, | :00:56. | :01:03. | |
on Britiain's military intervention in Syria have just come through. | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
397 votes, in favour of David Cameron's argument, 223 against. 223 | :01:09. | :01:21. | |
against, but winning by the upper end of what we imagine. That is the | :01:22. | :01:35. | |
upper end of their expectation, Labour whips were saying it might be | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
as high as 50 to 60, what the prime ministers spokesman has said, it | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
looked like it may have picked people off, saying that anybody | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
opposed to it was a terrorist sympathiser, but fiercely that has | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
not happened, we are going to look at the Commons chamber right now. | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
David Cameron told us he was not going to bring this vote unless he | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
was certain to win it, that is exactly what has happened, what they | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
have done is limited the rebellion on the Tory side to about ten, last | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
time around it was 30, they have reduced that. They have got the | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
Liberal Democrats, they have the day you p, and to get up to 397 they | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
have got 50 to 60 Labour MPs. When we were talking about this on Monday | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
night, we were trying to make sense of what that number could be. -- the | :02:21. | :02:28. | |
DUP. There was protection projections of over 100... 50 to 60, | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
internally, is what whips were saying, and what else has been | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
suggested, the speech by Hilary Benn, very powerful, a lot of people | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
inside the Commons chamber, they gave him a standing ovation, he has | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
taken a different perspective from his leader. That speech by Hilary | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
Benn may have persuaded as many as 15 MPs. In the last ten, five | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
minutes of the debate. I have spoken with Labour MPs, senior figures, who | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
were going to vote in favour, who did not. So actually, the reports I | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
was getting earlier in the day, looks like something has shifted | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
later this evening. What about the extensions, there were people, for | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
instance, Joel Cox, who thought... The significant thing, the Prime | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
Minister has got the numbers he had, but somebody who has said this, Jo | :03:19. | :03:29. | |
Cox, very informed, she said she did not been the Prime Minister made the | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
case, a lot of people said they were not won over by the specifics of | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
what he had to say. -- Jo Cox. Even so, he got the numbers he got. We | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
can take you to a dramatic moment that was coming through the Commons, | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
a couple of moments ago. Order, order. | :03:49. | :03:56. | |
397, as we have said, 223 against. Talk us through some of the parties, | :03:57. | :04:19. | |
much more clear-cut, the SNP, whipped vote, they were all against | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
as far as we know. The Liberal Democrats have a strong proud | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
tradition, particularly with Iraq, in 2003, Tim Farren stood up and | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
said that he was going to be leading his party in supporting strikes, he | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
stood up today and said that, I know that Labour MPs were persuaded by | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
Tim Farren, Tim Farren gave Labour MPs the reason and permission to go | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
over and support the Prime Minister. It is a very pathetic picture. In | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
the fullness of time, the role played by Tim Fallon is going to be | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
very interesting. I think that if we go back to you, we have a sense of | :05:00. | :05:07. | |
the numbers as a whole. -- Tim Farron. | :05:08. | :05:18. | |
Six RAF Typhoons and a couple of extra Tornados | :05:19. | :05:20. | |
From that, you could say this is a military decision | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
of a modest kind, we are already involved in Iraq anyway, and already | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
But that Britain is taking a decision to bomb a country, without | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
the consent of its government, does make this an important moment. | :05:33. | :05:34. | |
All the more important given the mixed track record | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
I'm here with three guests, military historian, journalist and | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
writer, Max Hastings, Times defence correspondent, Deborah Haynes, | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
Perhaps a bigger majority than you would have expected? You would not | :05:43. | :05:52. | |
be surprised, the Prime Minister has staked an enormous amount, it is an | :05:53. | :05:54. | |
enormous disappointment to me that it was hijacked about the soul of | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
the Labour Party, rather than the merits of what is happening, the key | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
thing that Jimmy has not been said loudly enough, that this is not what | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
the Prime Minister... He said it is effective action to keep streets | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
safe, it is nothing of the sort, this is a political gesture, it may | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
be necessary but it is a small political gesture and rather a | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
dangerous one. Briefly, the debate, over the course of the week, since | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
the Prime Minister made his statement, feels like ages ago, only | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
last Thursday, which weighed you think the argument has gone? Have | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
you heard anything to persuade you? A lot of people in the country | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
except the fact that something terrible has happened in Paris and | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
something must be done but since 2001, we have had far too many | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
gestures in response to situations. Far too little analysis of what are | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
the objectives and are they attainable? I do not believe that | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
these debates have seen the questions answered or asked. Do you | :06:51. | :06:58. | |
feel the debate has in no way answered those questions that people | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
were asking days ago, months ago, have we got answers? It is not | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
answer the question, however, it is dangerous to allow ourselves to be | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
caught up in the emotion of past disastrous campaigns, and use that | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
as a justification not to act this time, when there is clearly a huge | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
threat. There is a danger of doing something for the sake of doing | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
something. But I think we are at a point, we need to be a part of this | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
coalition properly, completely in all completely out, the situation we | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
have been in for the last year, half in, half out, that is illogical, as | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
the government says I welcome this decision. You said you would have | :07:40. | :07:52. | |
abstained. This was a diplomatic gesture, not just political, they | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
can have a place in sound strategy, I was struck by how many MPs were | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
focused, understandably so, on standing with France, and on the | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
importance of Britain being a sound reliable, dependable ally. Of | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
course, that is not an entirely unreasonable concern, but there was | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
a central question throughout these 11 hours, and the last week, who is | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
going to retake Raqqa and other ices held cities? That question, we are | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
still looking for the full answer to that question. -- Isis-held cities. | :08:25. | :08:35. | |
We have heard the government strategy... We have heard they are | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
determined to get rid of Bashar al-Assad and they want Iraq and | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
Syria to be unitary state, many do not believe that is possible, and | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
they want to crush Isis, all of us want to crush Isis, but the | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
objections are not moral or legal, they are, can what they are | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
proposing to do work? You to share some of those worries. What is | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
interesting is how important the Vienna process, the diplomacy was, | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
in making it possible for the Prime Minister to argue that there is a | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
diplomatic end in sight which may allow a transitional government of | :09:09. | :09:18. | |
Armed Forces to take this on. How long is this military intervention | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
going to last? My goodness... Years! Potentially, depends upon what | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
happens on the ground, if we have action on the ground, it could be | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
over in months. 11 hour debate in the Commons, at times rather noisy, | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
speeches often interrupted by interventions but nobody can say | :09:42. | :09:43. | |
that the audience were not deployed. There is a simple question at the | :09:44. | :09:55. | |
heart of the debate today, we face a fundamental threat to security, Isis | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
have brutally murdered Ridgers hostages, inspired the worst | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
terrorist attack against British people since 7/7 on the beaches of | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
Tunisia and plodded atrocity after atrocity on streets at home, since | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
November last year, we have foiled no more than seven different plots | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
against our people, so this threat is very real. -- plotted. The | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
question is this, do we work with allies to degrade and destroy this | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
threat, do we go after these terrorists in their heartlands, from | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
where they are plotting to kill British people? Do we sit back and | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
wait for them to attack us? VOICEOVER: Good intentions were | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
ruined last night when the Prime Minister himself branded those | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
opposed to air strikes " terrorist sympathisers". If we got up and | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
said, whoever does not walk with me through the division lobby is not a | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
terrorist sympathiser... He would improve his standing in this house, | :10:50. | :10:50. | |
enormously. I'm very happy to repeat what he has | :10:51. | :10:58. | |
said, able who voted... They do so with an... Dustup, the opposition, | :10:59. | :11:06. | |
and... Is it wrong for us in Westminster to see a problem, pass a | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
motion, drop bombs and pretend we are doing something to solve it? | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
That is what we did in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya... I ask the question of | :11:17. | :11:24. | |
the house, has terrorism increased or decreased as a result of all of | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
that? Conservative Rebels zoned in on one claim in particular. What is | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
stopping these moderates, once the common enemy, once they have been | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
somehow miraculously told to swing around, stop fighting Bashar | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
al-Assad and take on Daesh, what is stopping them from splintering into | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
100, or even 1000 militias, as we saw in Libya. One appeal was made | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
time and time again, that France had asked for help. Our French allies | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
have exquisitely asked for such support, and I ask the house to | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
consider how we would feel, and what we would say, if what took place in | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
Paris had happened in London, if we had explicitly asked France for | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
support, and France had refused? Many made the humanitarian case, | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
perhaps the most interesting were the Liberal Democrats, who so | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
famously opposed bombing Iraq in 2003. I cannot stand in this house | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
and castigate the Prime Minister for not taking enough refugees and for | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
Britain not standing as tall as it should do in the world and opening | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
its arms to the desperate as we have done so for many decades and | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
throughout history, if we do not also do everything in our power to | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
eradicate that which is the source of these people fleeing from that | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
terrorist up what many Labour MPs stood up to challenge their leader, | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
not only for opposing the strike but also the actions of his support | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
group, Momentum. Frankly I wish I had the self-righteous attitude of | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
the finger jabbing representatives of our new and Chindit type of | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
politics... LAUGHTER Will no doubt soon be contacting | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
those of us who support this motion tonight! The debate is now done, for | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
many bespoke with, the most difficult decision they have ever | :13:21. | :13:22. | |
had to take while they were in Parliament. | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
The Foreign Secretary is down in Westminster and joins us now. | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
Good evening. Rather than rehearsing the debate, I think it might be | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
worth asking you what constitutes success or failure in the campaign | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
we are about to embark on? Would you consider it a failure if we were | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
still there in four years' time, potentially? I hope it won't be four | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
years, but I caution it isn't going to be months. I have said this | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
evening in the debate that while we are using air strikes to contain and | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
degrade Isil in Raqqa, we will be pursuing a political track, trying | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
to resolve the Syrian civil war. It is only when those two things come | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
together, when the degradation of Isil in Raqqa and the creation of a | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
transitional Syrian government are both happening that we can then | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
actually utilise the forces that are currently fighting each other, the | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
Syrian government forces, the Syrian opposition forces, the Kurdish | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
forces, and get them turned around facing towards Isil and able to | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
finish off the job in Raqqa, reclaiming what will then be the | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
territory of the new free Syria from the evil empire of Daesh. Give us a | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
sense of your timescale on how long you think it might take to reach | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
that political settlement? Would it be a failure if there was no | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
political settlement of that kind say within 18 months? Well, that's | :14:54. | :15:00. | |
the target that we've set out. We have said six months to create a | :15:01. | :15:08. | |
transitional government, 18 months to internationally supervised | :15:09. | :15:10. | |
elections. That is an ambitious target. It is the one that all 19 | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
country, including Russia, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, China, | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
as well as the US, France and Britain have all agreed to work to a | :15:21. | :15:27. | |
target of 18 months to an election supervised by the UN that will | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
include Syrians in the diaspora, those who have been displaced into | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
refugee camps, they must have a right to vote in this election. If | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
it doesn't happen, or if it has no prospect of happening after 18 | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
months, or two years, do we just stay there and just carry on bombing | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
Raqqa until something else happens? What is the plan there? We are | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
determined to make this happen. And all the powers involved, including | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
Russia, want to see Isil degraded and ultimately destroyed. Isil | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
represents a huge threat to all of us. We are doing two things with | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
these air strikes. We are delivering an immediate benefit by degrading | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
Isil's ability to mount external attacks, to plan and execute | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
external attacks, so just starting those air strikes, even before we | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
get anywhere near a ground assault on Raqqa will improve the safety of | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
Britain, of France, of Europe, and of British and French people and | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
others wherever they are in the world. We have heard that. You must | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
have some Plan B if the ground force doesn't materialise and there isn't | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
a political settlement of the type you are talking about, and the | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
decision will then be we either stay or we leave. Can you imagine us | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
leaving while IS still control Raqqa? I cannot believe us stopping | :16:51. | :16:57. | |
air strikes against Daesh in Raqqa for so long as they represent a | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
threat to us, a threat to British citizens and a threat to the UK | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
homeland, no, we would have to continue with those air strikes. | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
Look, there will be a political settlement in Syria. I sincerely | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
hope that it is achieved within the timescale that we have set out at | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
Vienna. If it isn't, that won't mean we give up and go home. We have got | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
to find a political solution to the civil war in Syria. There is no | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
military solution. There can only be a political solution to that civil | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
war. As we stand on the eve of Britain entering this arena, what is | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
it that is going to make you lose sleep? What are you most afraid of? | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
I'm most afraid of the threat that Isil represents to our security here | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
in Britain, to our citizens travelling abroad. That plane over | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
Sharm el-Sheikh could have been a British plane. The attacks on the | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
streets of Paris could so easily have been attacks on the streets of | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
London. If Syrian forces, who you hope, opposition forces, who you | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
hope will join the assault on Isis, if they say we will join that | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
assault, but we need you to protect us against al-Assad, will you give | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
them that protection, no-fly zones? Let me be clear about this. The time | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
for a ground assault against Raqqa will be when a transitional | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
government is in place in Syria. All these people that we need to focus | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
on Isil are busy fighting each other in the civil war, the rump of the | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
Syrian Army, the Free Syrian Army, the opposition forces, the Kurds, | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
they are all engaged in a civil war. We have to settle that civil war. We | :18:40. | :18:48. | |
have got to get those people working alongside each other, not | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
necessarily together, but alongside each other, to reclaim the territory | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
of their country, Syria, from these occupiers of Isil. There won't be | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
any ground offensive that only - on this scenario - it doesn't involve | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
the 70,000 opposition forces. You are talking about a political | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
settlement that leads to the final assault? That is what we have always | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
been talking about. We are degrading Isil now. We are preventing them | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
from attacking us by keeping them under pressure now. To finish Isil | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
off, we have to finish the Syrian civil war. We have been clear about | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
that. The two things go hand in hand. So long as al-Assad is there | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
and fighting this civil war, we will not be able to finish Isil off | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
because the opposition in Syria will be trying to fight two battles at | :19:37. | :19:43. | |
once. One last quick one. Do you respect the people who voted against | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
the Government tonight and do you regret the talk of terrorist | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
sympathisers and the like? I have said in the debate today that I | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
recognise that there are people in the House of Commons with | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
strongly-held, long-established pacifist views who do not believe in | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
military action in any case. I believe for many of them, I believe | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
for the Leader of the Opposition, that is a genuinely and | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
sincerely-held view and I respect that. But there is a difference | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
between an individual back bench member holding a conscientious view | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
on something and the Leader of the Opposition seeking to impose that | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
view on a great political party that aspires to be a party of Government. | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
That is a very different thing. Thank you very much indeed. The | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
panel here in the studio. Any comment on that interview and I | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
suppose what the endgame is and how we get out of this mess? Half of | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
what the Foreign Secretary said seemed sensible. The bits that we | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
all have to be cautious about, I cannot accept what he said that our | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
bombing in Syria is going to make the streets of Britain safer. This | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
is nonsense. But also, the big question which is are the Russians | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
on side? Nobody mentioned al-Assad in that conversation. Are the | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
Russians on side for this great new transitional government? So far, I | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
think we have heard from the Russians, the British Government | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
keeps telling us they are. I haven't heard anything from Moscow that the | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
Russians agree that al-Assad has to go. It is massively complicated. | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
There are no easy answers. The understatement of the night! The | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
problem is that the people who are against military action fixate on | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
the problems and understandably so. I just think that bemoaning the fact | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
it is complicated is not a solution and I think at least now that we | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
have had a decision, we will be a full part of the coalition that | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
gives us greater influence to try and make something good come out of | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
all this chaos. Shashank Joshi, I thought the first rule was you were | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
not meant to go into war unless you could see your way out of it? In '91 | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
we were still there when we invaded in 2003 in Iraq. I'm sceptical of | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
Phil Hammond's confidence that we will be done in four years, given | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
how much he is relying on a successful political process. I am | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
delighted he's managed to get Iran and Saudi Arabia around the same | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
table, that is fantastic, a real achievement. If you listen what Iran | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
says when it is at the table, if you consider the fact that the | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
opposition groups are not at that table, Turkey and Russia are at | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
loggerheads after the downing of the jet, I'm more sceptical that the | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
transition will operate as smoothly as he hopes. It is complicated. We | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
can go to the Commons, we will talk to - I tell you what, the debate in | :22:48. | :22:56. | |
recent days has been a painful one for the Labour Party. | :22:57. | :22:58. | |
If Jeremy Corbyn believes in anything, | :22:59. | :22:59. | |
it is in voting down military action of the kind now proposed. | :23:00. | :23:01. | |
And he has party members on his side. | :23:02. | :23:02. | |
Well, because we've had confirmation today that tens of his MPs have | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
taken a different view, including his own Shadow Foreign Secretary. | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
And the debate today was a moment for the non-Corbyn wing | :23:12. | :23:13. | |
of the party - including some of the big beasts - to have their say. | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
Our French allies have explicitly asked us for such support and I | :23:19. | :23:26. | |
invite the House to consider how we would feel, and what we would say, | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
if what took place in Paris had happened in London, if we had asked | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
France for support and France had refused. I wish I had the | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
self-righteous certitude of the finger-jabbing representatives of | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
our new and kinder type of politics who will no doubt soon be contacting | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
those of us who support this motion tonight. I think some of the people | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
on the front bench now, and the people who are heckling behind me, | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
need to think carefully about the way in which they have conducted | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
themselves over recent weeks. We need to do better than this to be a | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
credible official opposition. Some of the voices in support of the war. | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
We can talk to Diane Abbott, who was not among those supporting the war. | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
Good evening. I know Margaret Beckett is with you. Margaret | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
Beckett gave a barnstorming speech in favour of the war, people thought | :24:29. | :24:35. | |
it was quite decisive. Can you be friends with Margaret Beckett now | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
this vote is over? Of course, we have known each other for many | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
years. Hilary Benn made a magnificent speech, it was just | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
wrong. The most telling thing about this debate is, at the end of the | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
debate, although ever since Paris there has been a drum beat for war | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
in the media, the vast majority of the Labour Party, the majority of | :24:55. | :24:56. | |
Labour MPs, and a substantial number the Labour Party, the majority of | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
of Shadow Cabinet members, are in the same position as Jeremy. I think | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
that public opinion very soon will tire of Cameron's war. Months after | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
an election, you can get away with this kind of division, in which the | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
Foreign Secretary and the Shadow Foreign Secretary, and the leader | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
are disagreeing. If this was months before a General Election, you | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
wouldn't be able to get away with this, would you? First of all, I | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
would argue the party as a whole is not divided. The party as a whole, | :25:30. | :25:37. | |
members, the NEC, MPs take Jeremy's position. This has been a tragic | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
vote tonight. We should be thinking of the people of Raqqa when those | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
bombers fly over them in the next 24 hours. To be honest, it doesn't seem | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
credible to say the party isn't divided. Very senior people in the | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
party clearly are divided and the members are divided. It may not be | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
split down the middle. You have a big wing who are not reconciled to | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
the point of view you have on this. I think you will find that the | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
majority, the vast majority of party members, and the majority of MPs, | :26:09. | :26:19. | |
support Jeremy's position. The thing they aren't reconciled to is the | :26:20. | :26:21. | |
fact their candidate lost the election. You are disagreeing on | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
something that I guess is one of the things on which you feel most | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
strongly, is that correct? What is difficult for me is journalists want | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
to make this a story about Labour splits rather than what I think has | :26:36. | :26:45. | |
been a very tragic decision tonight. Diane Abbott, would you encourage | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
members of the party, or members of pressure groups within the party, | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
there is one called Momentum, would you encourage them to punish the | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
MPs, like Margaret Beckett who supported today's Government motion? | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
Of course not. That would be absurd. Jeremy deliberately allowed a free | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
vote so people should feel free to voice their opinion and vote the way | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
they wanted. There will be no question of anybody being punished | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
or marginalised because of the way they spoke or voted tonight. I'm | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
sure many will be very pleased to hear that. Thank you. Let's go back | :27:19. | :27:26. | |
to Emily on the Green. I have a couple more noes here. You | :27:27. | :27:38. | |
tabled that amendment against the vote. The numbers stacked up against | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
you, but what was the message you took away from that? The message was | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
the House of Commons is divided on this issue. OK, we lost by 150, but | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
there was still 200-plus who said we don't think there is a comprehensive | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
strategy here, we have real concerns about the so-called 70,000 moderates | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
that are going to be the land force, and we have many questions | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
unanswered about things like absence of challenging Daesh on social | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
media, on business and financial interests so still lots of questions | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
unanswered. The task for the Government is to put this strategy | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
into place because I'm not convinced they have got it at the moment. | :28:18. | :28:24. | |
You have been here before with numbers that may not have spelt the | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
end of the story, Libya, curious bedfellows, Dennis Skinner, Jeremy | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
Corbyn, you think history has proved you right on that one. Only history | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
will tell, small number on Libya, ten voted against it, a small | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
lumber, but what it teaches you is that numbers alone does not | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
necessarily mean the right decision has been made. A number of us are | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
saying, all that we are saying, look at the previous interventions, the | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
previous errors, there is one common denominator, a lack of a strategic | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
plan that's all you through to the end, including an exit strategy, and | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
a lack of local knowledge. This looks very similar, I am afraid. On | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
paper, you too could not be more different, you said you did not even | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
need to whip the vote against for the SNP, complete uniformity. What | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
is it, when you look at all of the factors, military experience, last | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
vote on Iraq, I'm trying to work out if there is anything that you think | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
unites the no position now? I think there is a number of things, John | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
has just outlined most of them, briefly, the lack of strategy for | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
winning the peace, no plan at all for stabilisation all | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
reconstruction. -- stabilisation and reconstruction. The efficacy of the | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
bombing, even though supporting it, Tories on the government side, have | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
said, this will probably make little difference. Others voted against it | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
saying, this will make no difference. That and... Are those | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
questions we would not have asked before Iraq, the depth and precision | :30:00. | :30:07. | |
of that kind of questioning. Indeed, but in the aftermath of Iraq, we are | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
writes to ask them, what did we do, we created a vacuum which was filled | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
by IS of this world, and I fear, in the absence of a proper strategic | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
comprehensive international plan, to win the peace, as well as any | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
conflict, we will create an even bigger vacuum in Syria, then we | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
created in Iraq. To be brutally honest, although the government won | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
the vote, they did not answer a single one of those fundamental | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
question. John, how do you see the position of Jeremy Corbyn, we see | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
that the Shadow Cabinet voted with him, we view, against, does he now | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
look like a bigger figure, after tonight? In matters like this, it is | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
a matter of conscience, the greatest responsibility that Parliament has, | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
committing troops to battle, that is what we are talking about, lives on | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
the line, both those who are in the Armed Forces but also those on the | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
receiving end of the bombs. A great responsibility to have, should be a | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
matter of conscience, I suppose I would say that, my whips would agree | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
with me. As far as I'm concerned, he did what he had to do. If you went | :31:15. | :31:23. | |
back you think the majority of people in Scotland against military | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
action of this kind, if you go back and face questions of, why are you | :31:27. | :31:28. | |
not doing anything about possibly the worst enemy we have faced since | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
the Second World War, how do you look people in the eye? We have 100 | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
things that we want to do, we should follow the money from the oil | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
supplies... We should look at the funding for Daesh... The supply of | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
ammunition, who is supplying it and who is paying for it? All of these | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
actions can be taken right now, not least challenging the corrupt | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
ideology which leads people to follow this stuff in the first | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
place, many, many, many things we could have done which do not involve | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
going to war in a way, in the absence of a plan for exit, which | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
may end up being a bigger problem. The reason we are asking these | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
questions, you will write to refer to it, Parliament has set the bar | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
higher for intervention, look at the previous errors, whether it is Iraq, | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
Helmand Libya, even two years ago, when we stop the government from | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
signing with the other side, in the Civil War, it is right that | :32:23. | :32:29. | |
Parliament asks these questions and hold the executive to account. Some | :32:30. | :32:31. | |
of the names and numbers have been filtering through, Rosie Winterton | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
Labour Chief Whip, has abstained, that is what we understand so far, | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
we think that nine other Labour MPs voted. -- abstained, along with her. | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
That starts to show you some of the pictures are merging. | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
Let's go to Damascus now. Lyce Doucet is there. | :32:49. | :33:02. | |
Is anybody taking any notice of this British decision in the Syrian | :33:03. | :33:11. | |
capital? I think that we have got to see it in perspective, the day began | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
here, in Syria, with the newspapers not making a single mention about | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
this debate in Britain, which unfolded, as we have seen throughout | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
the day, with such intensity and symbolism, and most people that we | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
spoke to today did not know about it, when we asked them about whether | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
they care, whether they supported, whether Britain would join the air | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
campaign, most of them said, they would welcome any action against the | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
so-called Islamic State. The centre of Damascus is under Syrian and | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
control, president Bashar al-Assad has his greatest supporter here, | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
many were scathing, they said this is too little, too late, and it is | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
not going to work unless the coalition, now that Britain has now | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
joined it in the air campaign, ordinate actions with president | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
Bashar al-Assad and the Syrian army. That is not going to happen, even | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
though Russia has been calling for it. The real problem in this, now | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
that the war is intensifying, the air strikes have started, they have | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
gone on for more than a year, they have not stop the advance of Islamic | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
state, president Bashar al-Assad were scathing about that, but there | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
is another war that he's been going on for five years, the war between | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
the forces of a growing array of Syrian opposition forces and the | :34:32. | :34:33. | |
forces of Bashar al-Assad, fundamentally most of them believe | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
this is the war that matters. For all of the statement and symbolism | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
in London, what matters in a country where a life everyday is a matter of | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
life or death, where hardship grows by the day, a country ravaged, where | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
one third of the people here, 6.3 million people are dependent upon | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
food aid in order to survive, they want results, they want this war to | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
end, not to intensify, and make life even worse and cause even more | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
Syrians to take that Trail heading to Europe. Thank you very much | :35:06. | :35:07. | |
indeed. How much, housing, and to what | :35:08. | :35:19. | |
effect will we have military action? -- how soon. It could start | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
straight, we have eight Tornado ground attack aircraft based in | :35:27. | :35:27. | |
Cyprus, aircraft that have ground attack aircraft based in | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
bombing Iraq already, we are already plugged into the targeting analysis | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
centre in Qatar, and so theoretically, these jets could be | :35:39. | :35:40. | |
redirected to Syria, almost immediately. We will be sending out | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
more jets, that is really so that we can conduct missions simultaneously | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
in Iraq and in Syria, at the same time, when will this happen? Well, | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
probably not tomorrow, but I reckon it'll probably be in the next 48 72 | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
hours, we will see this operation having started. As for the likely | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
effect, even the British military do not want to exaggerate the impact, | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
as one had said to me earlier today, an officer, Britain is getting | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
involved with a maximum amount of knowledge but with an economy of | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
military effort. One of the most interesting and contentious claims | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
in the whole debate has been the issue of 70,000 potential fighters | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
who are not jihadists and not supporters of Bashar al-Assad, we | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
have been looking at that claim and who they are. Ever since David | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
Cameron mentioned this in a debate on Thursday, last week, it has been | :36:35. | :36:42. | |
a bone of contention. That is because the great unknown in all of | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
this is who is going to fight the ground war? Who is going to be in | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
hand to hand combat with Islamic State? What David Cameron appeared | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
to be doing last week was providing us with an answer. MPs from all | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
sides of the house have raised concerns about this, it was | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
certainly one of the most contentious issues in today's | :37:01. | :37:01. | |
debate. VOICEOVER: We know that there is | :37:02. | :37:10. | |
Syrian rebel fighters. Delay number 70,000? With a fight for us? Where | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
did that figure come from? -- are there are 70,000? Today, David | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
Cameron stuck to his guns, with qualification. I am not arguing, | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
this is crucial, that all of the 70,000 are somehow ideal partners, | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
some have left the Syrian army because of the brutality of Bashar | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
al-Assad, they clearly can play a role in the future of Syria. This | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
analyst, Charles Lister, thinks the number is about right, he defines | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
moderates as being both opposed to Isil, and the group that the | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
coalition wants to work with, it is complicated, but he cites 25,000 | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
members belonging to 58 factions of the free Syrian Army boss southern | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
front, in areas like Damascus. He says another 20,000 FSA fighters | :37:59. | :38:05. | |
from 14 factions are found in the North, in Homs, Hama and it live and | :38:06. | :38:13. | |
Aleppo. Another 40,000, belonging of -- another 30,000 have been | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
identified. -- Idlib. This makes a total of 75,000. As Charles Lister | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
excepts, even if the maths adds up, another problem, experts we have | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
spoken to say that there is just no way that that many Rebels would take | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
up arms against Islamic State, their focus at the moment is defending the | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
civilian population against the forces of Bashar al-Assad, Islamic | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
State just is not a priority. In fact, in areas where the Rebels have | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
managed to push back Islamic State, they have then been pounded by | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
president Bashar al-Assad's air force, even if they had the | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
wherewithal to do it, they have very little incentive to do so. Were you | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
surprised that David Cameron used that 70,000 figure? I was, the | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
problem is it was not put into context and not broken down into | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
what these groups represent, what their actual power base is in the | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
country and what change they could affect on the ground if a UK | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
strategy were to openly back them. The same as the 70,000 group, it is | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
not really explaining how they are able to assist us in fighting Isis, | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
to some of these fighters have almost no power on the ground | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
whatsoever, because they are aligned to much more powerful groups that do | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
not fight Isis, and some are sectarian and Islamist, not the kind | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
of people you would like to be in alliance with. In the Commons today, | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
scorn from the Tory chair of the defence committee, he drew a | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
comparison with history. Instead of having dodgy dossiers, we now have | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
bogus battalions, of " moderate fighters"! SHOUTING | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
Iraq in 2003, Syria in 2015, different wars, with different | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
dossiers, but a reminder of the perils of overstating the case. Some | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
unease in Whitehall about the use of this 70,000 figure, no other | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
government relies upon it. Officials privately whisper, it was probably a | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
mistake for the Prime Minister to be so precise. Whether he meant it or | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
not, this is the figure against which David Cameron will now be | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
judged. If the Rebels to emerge in their tens of thousands to banish | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
Isil, he will be vindicated, if they do not, 70,000 is the number that | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
will come back to haunt him. STUDIO: Until January this year, | :40:35. | :40:42. | |
Hadi Al-Bahra was President of the National Coalition for Syrian | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
Revolutionary and Opposition Forces. Your reaction to the decision of the | :40:46. | :40:56. | |
British Parliament to enter this action against Isil. Thank God! I | :40:57. | :41:06. | |
think they have taken the right decision, although it was late, | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
better late than never! They acted responsibly, and wisely, and we hope | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
to have a successful campaign against combating all terrorism, and | :41:18. | :41:24. | |
extremism, in that area. However, you would really like the British to | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
be involved against Bashar al-Assad, as well? Shaw, winning the campaign | :41:29. | :41:37. | |
against terrorism, it cannot be won only by military means. We have | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
really to deal with the root causes of extremism, and terrorism, in the | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
area, and mainly, the tyranny of the regime, the Richie McCaw Bashar | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
al-Assad, the corruption, in the area, and also the poverty in the | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
area. We have to deal on all fronts in order for us to have a successful | :42:00. | :42:06. | |
campaign against terrorism, we have been acting against Al-Qaeda for | :42:07. | :42:08. | |
more than 15 years. What have we got? We have got Isis, more extreme, | :42:09. | :42:17. | |
the organisation, more extreme than Al-Qaeda, a horrible terrorist | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
organisation. That is why, because we acted only on military front, we | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
did not act really on the social and economic reasons. Which created | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
terrorism and extremism in the area. A lot has been said about the | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
process which began in Vienna, hopefully leading to some political | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
solution, everybody here is talking about how this might work, they are | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
suggesting there might be a political settlement involving | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
Bashar al-Assad. Stepping aside, but perhaps in a transitional way, can | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
you work with the Vienna process, as I understand it, none of the Syrians | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
are in the process, it is all the foreign powers, can you work within | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
the Vienna process? For us we have acted responsibly. With all of the | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
United Nations efforts, since the previous regime. -- since the | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
previous conferences, Geneva one and Geneva two, now we are ready to act | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
very positively, and actively, with the current efforts of the | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
international community, through Vienna, and through the | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
reactivation, really, of the Geneva conference, to comply and implement | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
the communique from the first Geneva conference. Many people will regard | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
that as helpful. Last question, 70,000, non-jihadists, non-Bashar | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
al-Assad fighters, who could potentially go in and help in a | :43:47. | :43:47. | |
ground war against Isil... ? Yes, we have moderate forces on the | :43:48. | :44:00. | |
ground ready to fight Isis, they have been fighting Isis. We fought | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
Isis since 2013 without receiving really the proper aid and assistance | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
from the international community. We have been through this battle alone. | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
We fought two fronts, one front against the tyranny of al-Assad | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
regime and the second front against Isil. So now we are ready to | :44:21. | :44:28. | |
continue our fight but it has to be an organised fight, it has to be | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
assisted by the international community. This is not Syrian | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
problem alone. It's international problem. These fighters they came to | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
Syria from all the country from all over the world, they came from the | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
US, from England, from France, from the Arab world, from every corner on | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
the Earth. So all of us, we have to act really in unity against | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
terrorism and extremism. Hadi Al-Bahra, thank you. Let's go back | :44:58. | :45:04. | |
to College Green and get the latest there. Emily? | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
Since we have been on air, some of the protesters that have been | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
gathering in Parliament Square have started to bring their banners and | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
their chants down closer behind the cameras, perhaps you can hear them. | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
They are saying, "Shame on you, don't bomb Syria." We think it is | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
mostly the Stop The War Coalition. We saw the momentum of the Stop The | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
War campaigners over the weekend, so that has been something that they | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
are now feeling incredibly strongly about, given those vote numbers, | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
that are stacking up, which seem to indicate, which really do indicate | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
that David Cameron has the mandate to extend those air strikes into | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
Syria, which, as we have been hearing, could be any time in 72 | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
hours. The curious thing is, the place behind me is accused of Punch | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
and Judy politics. Today it was anything but that. There was real | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
soul-searching, rigorous questioning and there was heart-felt argument | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
and debate. Perhaps one of the finest pieces of oratory came at the | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
end of that marathon ten-hour session and it came from the Shadow | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, who seemed to grow in stature as he | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
spoke, always courteous, but very, very impassioned with what he said | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
and he was cheered from all sides. Curious to see the Government front | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
bench clapping him on as he took to his feet and spoke. This is what he | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
said. They hold our values in contempt, they hold our belief in | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
tolerance and decency in contempt, they hold our democracy, the means | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
by which we will make our decision tonight in contempt! What we know | :46:44. | :46:51. | |
about fascists is that they need to be defeated. Hilary Benn speaking | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
there right at the very end of the ten-hour debate. Our political | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
editor is with me. That seemed to be something of a game-changer, or a | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
moment, people are saying that he really sort of grew in the eyes of | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
many listening there? For many people, he has during the week, so | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
67 Labour people voted with the Government, to give you the detail. | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
Seven Conservative rebels have voted against their leader, but it is down | :47:21. | :47:29. | |
on what we were talking about earlier. It is lower and then seven | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
abstentions. Let's go back to that Labour number. I have been texted | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
already to say that people who have been organising against Jeremy | :47:40. | :47:41. | |
Corbyn and this group Momentum, these people who have been e-mailing | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
Labour MPs, who were wavering, to say this is how you need to vote, | :47:47. | :48:06. | |
you need to be anti this war. They think 67 is amazing. Against this, | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's team is putting out this evening that firstly a majority | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
of the Shadow Cabinet supported the Labour Leader, which is quite | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
extraordinary given... 16, we have just had that number, 16 supporting | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
Jeremy Corbyn. 11 against him. You would struggle to find 16 who you | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
would say would vote in that way. He has inspired some kind of loyalty. | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
The other thing that Jeremy Corbyn's team is saying that over 150 MPs | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
supporting him, he is enhanced this evening. Even though this evening | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
David Cameron has won this vote, he of all people will know that support | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
in this country for military intervention is very, very hard-won | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
and evaporates very quickly. If there is any "mission creep" or any | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
sense that it is going on too long, then things will turn against David | :48:56. | :49:04. | |
Cameron. It could be that Jeremy Corbyn is prophetic. Once you have | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
been through those numbers, we will be crunching them to work out who | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
took whose side and how they fell. I think what will be remembered most | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
of all is some of the speeches that we have heard, that real sense of | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
MPs asking themselves the questions that perhaps they didn't ask last | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
time round, there has been a ghost of Iraq on many of the shoulders, | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
the poignancy, the precision, the depth of the questioning this time | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
round seems to undermine a sense that many of those questions weren't | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
asked properly last time around. So, you have heard a few of the speeches | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
that have come through and it will be interesting to look back over the | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
years and just see what has come to what many spoke about this evening. | :49:47. | :49:48. | |
Back to Evan. Thank you. The voice of British Muslims is | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
important in the arguments over military action - although we | :49:53. | :49:54. | |
shouldn't assume there is only one Secunder Kermani has spent the day | :49:55. | :49:56. | |
in High Wycombe - a community that's been in the spotlight after | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
at least two young men It's a typical commuter town, but on | :50:01. | :50:20. | |
these suburban streets foreign policy matters. High Wycombe has a | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
large British Muslim population and many here are unhappy with Western | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
governments. People have given up hope nowadays, the community doesn't | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
have that much hope anymore. They do stuff like this, to share their | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
thoughts with everyone, every day you walk past, you will see these | :50:39. | :50:40. | |
same things. There had been a picture of Osama | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
Bin Laden here, statements of resistance, if not support, perhaps. | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
Zayn has been following the debate on air strikes in Syria. I'm not in | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
favour of them. There is a small part of me which is not against them | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
either in the sense that I think that I believe that those bombs are | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
going to go and hit Isis and they will hit the terrorists that are | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
giving us Muslims the bad name. They should be destroyed, not the | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
innocents. This confuses me. Like I said, you can go and you can bomb | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
Syria as much as you like, but you are killing innocent people. Down | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
the road, there is a sense of anger at the prospect of more bombs in a | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
Muslim country. They shouldn't do it. They will kill innocent people. | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
How do you think the Government should be fighting against Isis if | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
they are not doing air strikes? I don't know. Bombing is not, it is | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
not worth bombing because you will kill a lot of innocent people. They | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
should do it another way. In the mosques, they are aware that a | :51:48. | :51:54. | |
number of young men from the area have joined Isis. Some people would | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
say foreign policy is used as an excuse, it is not the real reason. | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
Half of their targets are Shias, or other Muslims. If you analyse the | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
statements of jihadis that have killed themselves, more and one have | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
cited their reasons, and they include foreign policy. This is one | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
area of concern that every jihadist has said and then they have blown | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
themselves and others up. We need to take it seriously. This man was | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
friends with one of those from the area now with Isis. We are | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
protecting his identity. How does it feel thinking they could be on the | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
receiving end of British bombs in Syria? That is a choice they have | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
made. I'm not concerned about them. My main concern is the innocent men, | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
women and children that can't get to refuge. More concern should be going | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
over them than people who are going into that situation. You have seen | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
the Isis ideology, does there need to be a military solution to | :52:54. | :52:55. | |
defeating them? Is any other way to be a military solution to | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
possible? Most people would say it seems like there isn't? I think it's | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
gone too far. There is an issue that has to be faced. But does that | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
justify increasing a humanitarian crisis? These guys, they don't just | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
give up because you are throwing bombs on their heads. Everyone we | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
spoke to opposes Isis, but for some, angry at Government policies | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
affecting Muslims here and abroad, there is a perception the air | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
strikes are the latest Western mistake. Secunder Kermani there. You | :53:27. | :53:34. | |
heard from Lyse Doucet that people weren't aware we were having this | :53:35. | :53:37. | |
vote in Syria. I was interested to see the | :53:38. | :53:38. | |
New York Times report on today's It described the vote as - | :53:39. | :53:40. | |
and I quote - one that's "become a wider test of British | :53:41. | :53:42. | |
willingness to play an active role The issue has always been more | :53:43. | :53:44. | |
about alliance solidarity and leadership than about strict | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
military or strategic utility". The piece didn't mention | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
our famed Brimstone missiles. And that may get to the heart | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
of it - the decision is as much about top-table places, as it is | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
about extra military firepower. To finish the programme, I'm still | :54:03. | :54:14. | |
with my panel of three. First, let's reflect, if this fails, or if it | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
appears to have failed, Max Hastings that, is the end of it for votes | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
like this on future military interventions for decades? I don't | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
think this has been a great day for democracy. A lot of what was said in | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
the House of Commons was tosh. Hilary Benn substituted intense | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
emotion and passion for intense discussion. I'm strongly in favour | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
of military action. If one is convinced it is going to work. I | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
think we are wading into a hell of a mess in Syria. We will end up having | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
ground troops there and a lot of what David Cameron has said in | :54:49. | :54:50. | |
defence of this policy is for the fairies. I don't think it will | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
happen. I think it will have to be Western ground troops and it will be | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
a hell of a mess unless the Russians change their spots dramatically. | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
That must really depress you for someone who does believe in the | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
power of intervention? I do. I think this is a mistaken one. It will be | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
hard to make the case again if this one fails? I'm amazed that David | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
Cameron can make many of the arguments he used for that | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
disastrous intervention in Libya and most of the House of Commons is | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
willing to go with him and they are bonkers. You are bonkers in his view | :55:24. | :55:29. | |
as well, Deborah? The issue is, we have already committed, it is not | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
like we have embarked on a new war today. We were already at war, we | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
already decided last year that we were with the United States, with | :55:38. | :55:47. | |
France. It's all very well thinking how we can get to the endgame. We | :55:48. | :55:56. | |
are here, we are acting. The 2013 vote when Britain said no to air | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
strikes against President al-Assad's regime, you can argue the rights and | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
wrongs of that. It undermined our confidence, it undermined our status | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
in the world, as a military power. You are saying the Alliance, right | :56:12. | :56:18. | |
or wrong? I'm not saying the Alliance is right or wrong, we are | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
in the Alliance. If we are in the Alliance, which we have been for the | :56:23. | :56:25. | |
last year, we should be fully in, as we are at the moment. It gets to | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
what the New York Times said, Shashank Joshi. What was the phrase | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
you used, diplomatic gesture? One of the interesting things is the | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
precedent that has been set over the last several years on going to | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
Parliament for matters of War and Peace in this way and how tense, how | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
finely balanced it has been. One of the interesting effects of this in | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
the long run will be NATO allies in Eastern Europe, Baltic countries | :56:56. | :57:02. | |
like Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, wondering if there is an Article 5 | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
issue at stake, are we going to have weeks of debate in the House of | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
Commons about this every time the UK wishes to intervene in this way? It | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
is not just the outcome, it is not just exorcising the ghost of 2013, | :57:17. | :57:26. | |
where does this leave us? If we go into this escapade because we are | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
part of a team, it means we are not sub-contracting our defence, as some | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
people have said we would be doing, but it does mean we will be | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
sub-contracting our thinking, we are saying, we are doing it because you | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
are doing it. Is that the way we should make these decisions? It is | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
more than we are doing it because you are doing it. The fact is, | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
America and France are fundamental to our security and in a world which | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
is so unstable, when you have got threats like Isis, you have got the | :57:57. | :58:02. | |
actions of Russia, which are so unpredictable and Russia exploits | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
the fact that we have this democratic process that means we | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
need to have these crazy debates. It is really important to be unified. I | :58:11. | :58:26. | |
do understand that - maybe I sound idealistic and with the fairies. | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
Doing something together is better than thinking it is too difficult we | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
can't do it. I will give you one example... That is the problem with | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
this whole debate. It's been fixated on air power and it is so much more | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
than that. The fact that we have committed to air power in Syria, it | :58:47. | :58:52. | |
means we have a greater ability to influence the wider campaign. Our | :58:53. | :59:01. | |
contribution is - the Americans have flown 56,000 sorties in Syria and | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
Iraq. The idea that Isis will be trembling tomorrow morning because | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
the RAF's eight Tornados are joining in, this is an example of how we | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
delude ourselves. It is symbolic, but it is important because we are | :59:14. | :59:20. | |
participating in the Alliance. Is this an Iraq moment? Will we look | :59:21. | :59:27. | |
back on this vote as one of those decisive, defining votes? I don't | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
think so. Iraq was the shattering of a large army and a state. Here, | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
millions have fled, hundreds of thousands have died, there is a war | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
already going on and I'm - that is why I'm dismayed by the arguments | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
against this being civilians will die. Hundreds of thousands have died | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
already. In that sense, it is not Libya, it is not Iraq. Thank you all | :59:50. | :59:51. | |
very much. Although Jeremy Corbyn managed to | :59:52. | :00:11. | |
keep his Shadow Cabinet with him, but Andy Burnham voted against, | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
apparently influenced by the Prime Minister calling opponents | :00:16. | :00:17. | |
"terrorist sympathisers". Well, that's it | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
for this very important evening. The country is not entering this new | :00:21. | :00:21. | |
military arena with any unity around the strategy - | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
but despite a robust argument, there | :00:26. | :00:28. |