02/12/2015 Newsnight


02/12/2015

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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The debate has run for about 11 hours today,

:00:09.:00:13.

We will bring you the result of the vote on air strikes in Syria.

:00:14.:00:19.

So many questions have been asked today,

:00:20.:00:21.

We will be speaking to the Foreign Secretary and getting lots of

:00:22.:00:25.

As MPs emerge from the chamber, I'll be crunching the numbers

:00:26.:00:30.

What does this mean for military action?

:00:31.:00:32.

And what do the politics of the vote tell us

:00:33.:00:34.

What do British Muslims think about the possibility of air strikes in

:00:35.:00:46.

Syria, I have been speaking with people in high Wycombe.

:00:47.:00:55.

Good evening from Westminster where the results of that key vote,

:00:56.:01:03.

on Britiain's military intervention in Syria have just come through.

:01:04.:01:08.

397 votes, in favour of David Cameron's argument, 223 against. 223

:01:09.:01:21.

against, but winning by the upper end of what we imagine. That is the

:01:22.:01:35.

upper end of their expectation, Labour whips were saying it might be

:01:36.:01:38.

as high as 50 to 60, what the prime ministers spokesman has said, it

:01:39.:01:43.

looked like it may have picked people off, saying that anybody

:01:44.:01:47.

opposed to it was a terrorist sympathiser, but fiercely that has

:01:48.:01:51.

not happened, we are going to look at the Commons chamber right now.

:01:52.:01:55.

David Cameron told us he was not going to bring this vote unless he

:01:56.:01:58.

was certain to win it, that is exactly what has happened, what they

:01:59.:02:02.

have done is limited the rebellion on the Tory side to about ten, last

:02:03.:02:06.

time around it was 30, they have reduced that. They have got the

:02:07.:02:10.

Liberal Democrats, they have the day you p, and to get up to 397 they

:02:11.:02:16.

have got 50 to 60 Labour MPs. When we were talking about this on Monday

:02:17.:02:20.

night, we were trying to make sense of what that number could be. -- the

:02:21.:02:28.

DUP. There was protection projections of over 100... 50 to 60,

:02:29.:02:32.

internally, is what whips were saying, and what else has been

:02:33.:02:35.

suggested, the speech by Hilary Benn, very powerful, a lot of people

:02:36.:02:41.

inside the Commons chamber, they gave him a standing ovation, he has

:02:42.:02:44.

taken a different perspective from his leader. That speech by Hilary

:02:45.:02:49.

Benn may have persuaded as many as 15 MPs. In the last ten, five

:02:50.:02:55.

minutes of the debate. I have spoken with Labour MPs, senior figures, who

:02:56.:02:59.

were going to vote in favour, who did not. So actually, the reports I

:03:00.:03:05.

was getting earlier in the day, looks like something has shifted

:03:06.:03:10.

later this evening. What about the extensions, there were people, for

:03:11.:03:14.

instance, Joel Cox, who thought... The significant thing, the Prime

:03:15.:03:18.

Minister has got the numbers he had, but somebody who has said this, Jo

:03:19.:03:29.

Cox, very informed, she said she did not been the Prime Minister made the

:03:30.:03:33.

case, a lot of people said they were not won over by the specifics of

:03:34.:03:37.

what he had to say. -- Jo Cox. Even so, he got the numbers he got. We

:03:38.:03:42.

can take you to a dramatic moment that was coming through the Commons,

:03:43.:03:48.

a couple of moments ago. Order, order.

:03:49.:03:56.

397, as we have said, 223 against. Talk us through some of the parties,

:03:57.:04:19.

much more clear-cut, the SNP, whipped vote, they were all against

:04:20.:04:25.

as far as we know. The Liberal Democrats have a strong proud

:04:26.:04:29.

tradition, particularly with Iraq, in 2003, Tim Farren stood up and

:04:30.:04:35.

said that he was going to be leading his party in supporting strikes, he

:04:36.:04:40.

stood up today and said that, I know that Labour MPs were persuaded by

:04:41.:04:44.

Tim Farren, Tim Farren gave Labour MPs the reason and permission to go

:04:45.:04:47.

over and support the Prime Minister. It is a very pathetic picture. In

:04:48.:04:53.

the fullness of time, the role played by Tim Fallon is going to be

:04:54.:04:59.

very interesting. I think that if we go back to you, we have a sense of

:05:00.:05:07.

the numbers as a whole. -- Tim Farron.

:05:08.:05:18.

Six RAF Typhoons and a couple of extra Tornados

:05:19.:05:20.

From that, you could say this is a military decision

:05:21.:05:24.

of a modest kind, we are already involved in Iraq anyway, and already

:05:25.:05:27.

But that Britain is taking a decision to bomb a country, without

:05:28.:05:32.

the consent of its government, does make this an important moment.

:05:33.:05:34.

All the more important given the mixed track record

:05:35.:05:37.

I'm here with three guests, military historian, journalist and

:05:38.:05:40.

writer, Max Hastings, Times defence correspondent, Deborah Haynes,

:05:41.:05:42.

Perhaps a bigger majority than you would have expected? You would not

:05:43.:05:52.

be surprised, the Prime Minister has staked an enormous amount, it is an

:05:53.:05:54.

enormous disappointment to me that it was hijacked about the soul of

:05:55.:05:59.

the Labour Party, rather than the merits of what is happening, the key

:06:00.:06:02.

thing that Jimmy has not been said loudly enough, that this is not what

:06:03.:06:07.

the Prime Minister... He said it is effective action to keep streets

:06:08.:06:10.

safe, it is nothing of the sort, this is a political gesture, it may

:06:11.:06:14.

be necessary but it is a small political gesture and rather a

:06:15.:06:18.

dangerous one. Briefly, the debate, over the course of the week, since

:06:19.:06:22.

the Prime Minister made his statement, feels like ages ago, only

:06:23.:06:26.

last Thursday, which weighed you think the argument has gone? Have

:06:27.:06:30.

you heard anything to persuade you? A lot of people in the country

:06:31.:06:34.

except the fact that something terrible has happened in Paris and

:06:35.:06:38.

something must be done but since 2001, we have had far too many

:06:39.:06:43.

gestures in response to situations. Far too little analysis of what are

:06:44.:06:46.

the objectives and are they attainable? I do not believe that

:06:47.:06:50.

these debates have seen the questions answered or asked. Do you

:06:51.:06:58.

feel the debate has in no way answered those questions that people

:06:59.:07:02.

were asking days ago, months ago, have we got answers? It is not

:07:03.:07:07.

answer the question, however, it is dangerous to allow ourselves to be

:07:08.:07:12.

caught up in the emotion of past disastrous campaigns, and use that

:07:13.:07:16.

as a justification not to act this time, when there is clearly a huge

:07:17.:07:20.

threat. There is a danger of doing something for the sake of doing

:07:21.:07:26.

something. But I think we are at a point, we need to be a part of this

:07:27.:07:30.

coalition properly, completely in all completely out, the situation we

:07:31.:07:34.

have been in for the last year, half in, half out, that is illogical, as

:07:35.:07:39.

the government says I welcome this decision. You said you would have

:07:40.:07:52.

abstained. This was a diplomatic gesture, not just political, they

:07:53.:07:56.

can have a place in sound strategy, I was struck by how many MPs were

:07:57.:08:00.

focused, understandably so, on standing with France, and on the

:08:01.:08:05.

importance of Britain being a sound reliable, dependable ally. Of

:08:06.:08:09.

course, that is not an entirely unreasonable concern, but there was

:08:10.:08:14.

a central question throughout these 11 hours, and the last week, who is

:08:15.:08:19.

going to retake Raqqa and other ices held cities? That question, we are

:08:20.:08:24.

still looking for the full answer to that question. -- Isis-held cities.

:08:25.:08:35.

We have heard the government strategy... We have heard they are

:08:36.:08:38.

determined to get rid of Bashar al-Assad and they want Iraq and

:08:39.:08:42.

Syria to be unitary state, many do not believe that is possible, and

:08:43.:08:46.

they want to crush Isis, all of us want to crush Isis, but the

:08:47.:08:53.

objections are not moral or legal, they are, can what they are

:08:54.:08:56.

proposing to do work? You to share some of those worries. What is

:08:57.:09:00.

interesting is how important the Vienna process, the diplomacy was,

:09:01.:09:04.

in making it possible for the Prime Minister to argue that there is a

:09:05.:09:08.

diplomatic end in sight which may allow a transitional government of

:09:09.:09:18.

Armed Forces to take this on. How long is this military intervention

:09:19.:09:24.

going to last? My goodness... Years! Potentially, depends upon what

:09:25.:09:31.

happens on the ground, if we have action on the ground, it could be

:09:32.:09:35.

over in months. 11 hour debate in the Commons, at times rather noisy,

:09:36.:09:41.

speeches often interrupted by interventions but nobody can say

:09:42.:09:43.

that the audience were not deployed. There is a simple question at the

:09:44.:09:55.

heart of the debate today, we face a fundamental threat to security, Isis

:09:56.:09:59.

have brutally murdered Ridgers hostages, inspired the worst

:10:00.:10:03.

terrorist attack against British people since 7/7 on the beaches of

:10:04.:10:09.

Tunisia and plodded atrocity after atrocity on streets at home, since

:10:10.:10:13.

November last year, we have foiled no more than seven different plots

:10:14.:10:17.

against our people, so this threat is very real. -- plotted. The

:10:18.:10:22.

question is this, do we work with allies to degrade and destroy this

:10:23.:10:25.

threat, do we go after these terrorists in their heartlands, from

:10:26.:10:28.

where they are plotting to kill British people? Do we sit back and

:10:29.:10:32.

wait for them to attack us? VOICEOVER: Good intentions were

:10:33.:10:36.

ruined last night when the Prime Minister himself branded those

:10:37.:10:40.

opposed to air strikes " terrorist sympathisers". If we got up and

:10:41.:10:45.

said, whoever does not walk with me through the division lobby is not a

:10:46.:10:49.

terrorist sympathiser... He would improve his standing in this house,

:10:50.:10:50.

enormously. I'm very happy to repeat what he has

:10:51.:10:58.

said, able who voted... They do so with an... Dustup, the opposition,

:10:59.:11:06.

and... Is it wrong for us in Westminster to see a problem, pass a

:11:07.:11:11.

motion, drop bombs and pretend we are doing something to solve it?

:11:12.:11:16.

That is what we did in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya... I ask the question of

:11:17.:11:24.

the house, has terrorism increased or decreased as a result of all of

:11:25.:11:31.

that? Conservative Rebels zoned in on one claim in particular. What is

:11:32.:11:38.

stopping these moderates, once the common enemy, once they have been

:11:39.:11:42.

somehow miraculously told to swing around, stop fighting Bashar

:11:43.:11:48.

al-Assad and take on Daesh, what is stopping them from splintering into

:11:49.:11:53.

100, or even 1000 militias, as we saw in Libya. One appeal was made

:11:54.:11:58.

time and time again, that France had asked for help. Our French allies

:11:59.:12:03.

have exquisitely asked for such support, and I ask the house to

:12:04.:12:07.

consider how we would feel, and what we would say, if what took place in

:12:08.:12:13.

Paris had happened in London, if we had explicitly asked France for

:12:14.:12:20.

support, and France had refused? Many made the humanitarian case,

:12:21.:12:23.

perhaps the most interesting were the Liberal Democrats, who so

:12:24.:12:27.

famously opposed bombing Iraq in 2003. I cannot stand in this house

:12:28.:12:32.

and castigate the Prime Minister for not taking enough refugees and for

:12:33.:12:36.

Britain not standing as tall as it should do in the world and opening

:12:37.:12:40.

its arms to the desperate as we have done so for many decades and

:12:41.:12:44.

throughout history, if we do not also do everything in our power to

:12:45.:12:48.

eradicate that which is the source of these people fleeing from that

:12:49.:12:51.

terrorist up what many Labour MPs stood up to challenge their leader,

:12:52.:12:55.

not only for opposing the strike but also the actions of his support

:12:56.:13:01.

group, Momentum. Frankly I wish I had the self-righteous attitude of

:13:02.:13:06.

the finger jabbing representatives of our new and Chindit type of

:13:07.:13:10.

politics... LAUGHTER Will no doubt soon be contacting

:13:11.:13:14.

those of us who support this motion tonight! The debate is now done, for

:13:15.:13:20.

many bespoke with, the most difficult decision they have ever

:13:21.:13:22.

had to take while they were in Parliament.

:13:23.:13:25.

The Foreign Secretary is down in Westminster and joins us now.

:13:26.:13:29.

Good evening. Rather than rehearsing the debate, I think it might be

:13:30.:13:36.

worth asking you what constitutes success or failure in the campaign

:13:37.:13:40.

we are about to embark on? Would you consider it a failure if we were

:13:41.:13:45.

still there in four years' time, potentially? I hope it won't be four

:13:46.:13:50.

years, but I caution it isn't going to be months. I have said this

:13:51.:13:56.

evening in the debate that while we are using air strikes to contain and

:13:57.:14:02.

degrade Isil in Raqqa, we will be pursuing a political track, trying

:14:03.:14:06.

to resolve the Syrian civil war. It is only when those two things come

:14:07.:14:11.

together, when the degradation of Isil in Raqqa and the creation of a

:14:12.:14:16.

transitional Syrian government are both happening that we can then

:14:17.:14:22.

actually utilise the forces that are currently fighting each other, the

:14:23.:14:25.

Syrian government forces, the Syrian opposition forces, the Kurdish

:14:26.:14:31.

forces, and get them turned around facing towards Isil and able to

:14:32.:14:35.

finish off the job in Raqqa, reclaiming what will then be the

:14:36.:14:41.

territory of the new free Syria from the evil empire of Daesh. Give us a

:14:42.:14:46.

sense of your timescale on how long you think it might take to reach

:14:47.:14:49.

that political settlement? Would it be a failure if there was no

:14:50.:14:53.

political settlement of that kind say within 18 months? Well, that's

:14:54.:15:00.

the target that we've set out. We have said six months to create a

:15:01.:15:08.

transitional government, 18 months to internationally supervised

:15:09.:15:10.

elections. That is an ambitious target. It is the one that all 19

:15:11.:15:15.

country, including Russia, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, China,

:15:16.:15:20.

as well as the US, France and Britain have all agreed to work to a

:15:21.:15:27.

target of 18 months to an election supervised by the UN that will

:15:28.:15:32.

include Syrians in the diaspora, those who have been displaced into

:15:33.:15:36.

refugee camps, they must have a right to vote in this election. If

:15:37.:15:40.

it doesn't happen, or if it has no prospect of happening after 18

:15:41.:15:44.

months, or two years, do we just stay there and just carry on bombing

:15:45.:15:50.

Raqqa until something else happens? What is the plan there? We are

:15:51.:15:54.

determined to make this happen. And all the powers involved, including

:15:55.:16:00.

Russia, want to see Isil degraded and ultimately destroyed. Isil

:16:01.:16:04.

represents a huge threat to all of us. We are doing two things with

:16:05.:16:08.

these air strikes. We are delivering an immediate benefit by degrading

:16:09.:16:13.

Isil's ability to mount external attacks, to plan and execute

:16:14.:16:18.

external attacks, so just starting those air strikes, even before we

:16:19.:16:22.

get anywhere near a ground assault on Raqqa will improve the safety of

:16:23.:16:27.

Britain, of France, of Europe, and of British and French people and

:16:28.:16:31.

others wherever they are in the world. We have heard that. You must

:16:32.:16:37.

have some Plan B if the ground force doesn't materialise and there isn't

:16:38.:16:40.

a political settlement of the type you are talking about, and the

:16:41.:16:44.

decision will then be we either stay or we leave. Can you imagine us

:16:45.:16:50.

leaving while IS still control Raqqa? I cannot believe us stopping

:16:51.:16:57.

air strikes against Daesh in Raqqa for so long as they represent a

:16:58.:17:01.

threat to us, a threat to British citizens and a threat to the UK

:17:02.:17:05.

homeland, no, we would have to continue with those air strikes.

:17:06.:17:09.

Look, there will be a political settlement in Syria. I sincerely

:17:10.:17:13.

hope that it is achieved within the timescale that we have set out at

:17:14.:17:17.

Vienna. If it isn't, that won't mean we give up and go home. We have got

:17:18.:17:22.

to find a political solution to the civil war in Syria. There is no

:17:23.:17:26.

military solution. There can only be a political solution to that civil

:17:27.:17:31.

war. As we stand on the eve of Britain entering this arena, what is

:17:32.:17:35.

it that is going to make you lose sleep? What are you most afraid of?

:17:36.:17:41.

I'm most afraid of the threat that Isil represents to our security here

:17:42.:17:45.

in Britain, to our citizens travelling abroad. That plane over

:17:46.:17:50.

Sharm el-Sheikh could have been a British plane. The attacks on the

:17:51.:17:54.

streets of Paris could so easily have been attacks on the streets of

:17:55.:18:00.

London. If Syrian forces, who you hope, opposition forces, who you

:18:01.:18:05.

hope will join the assault on Isis, if they say we will join that

:18:06.:18:11.

assault, but we need you to protect us against al-Assad, will you give

:18:12.:18:16.

them that protection, no-fly zones? Let me be clear about this. The time

:18:17.:18:21.

for a ground assault against Raqqa will be when a transitional

:18:22.:18:26.

government is in place in Syria. All these people that we need to focus

:18:27.:18:31.

on Isil are busy fighting each other in the civil war, the rump of the

:18:32.:18:36.

Syrian Army, the Free Syrian Army, the opposition forces, the Kurds,

:18:37.:18:39.

they are all engaged in a civil war. We have to settle that civil war. We

:18:40.:18:48.

have got to get those people working alongside each other, not

:18:49.:18:51.

necessarily together, but alongside each other, to reclaim the territory

:18:52.:18:57.

of their country, Syria, from these occupiers of Isil. There won't be

:18:58.:19:02.

any ground offensive that only - on this scenario - it doesn't involve

:19:03.:19:07.

the 70,000 opposition forces. You are talking about a political

:19:08.:19:11.

settlement that leads to the final assault? That is what we have always

:19:12.:19:15.

been talking about. We are degrading Isil now. We are preventing them

:19:16.:19:19.

from attacking us by keeping them under pressure now. To finish Isil

:19:20.:19:25.

off, we have to finish the Syrian civil war. We have been clear about

:19:26.:19:28.

that. The two things go hand in hand. So long as al-Assad is there

:19:29.:19:32.

and fighting this civil war, we will not be able to finish Isil off

:19:33.:19:36.

because the opposition in Syria will be trying to fight two battles at

:19:37.:19:43.

once. One last quick one. Do you respect the people who voted against

:19:44.:19:47.

the Government tonight and do you regret the talk of terrorist

:19:48.:19:51.

sympathisers and the like? I have said in the debate today that I

:19:52.:19:55.

recognise that there are people in the House of Commons with

:19:56.:20:01.

strongly-held, long-established pacifist views who do not believe in

:20:02.:20:06.

military action in any case. I believe for many of them, I believe

:20:07.:20:10.

for the Leader of the Opposition, that is a genuinely and

:20:11.:20:14.

sincerely-held view and I respect that. But there is a difference

:20:15.:20:19.

between an individual back bench member holding a conscientious view

:20:20.:20:23.

on something and the Leader of the Opposition seeking to impose that

:20:24.:20:27.

view on a great political party that aspires to be a party of Government.

:20:28.:20:31.

That is a very different thing. Thank you very much indeed. The

:20:32.:20:37.

panel here in the studio. Any comment on that interview and I

:20:38.:20:41.

suppose what the endgame is and how we get out of this mess? Half of

:20:42.:20:44.

what the Foreign Secretary said seemed sensible. The bits that we

:20:45.:20:48.

all have to be cautious about, I cannot accept what he said that our

:20:49.:20:52.

bombing in Syria is going to make the streets of Britain safer. This

:20:53.:20:58.

is nonsense. But also, the big question which is are the Russians

:20:59.:21:02.

on side? Nobody mentioned al-Assad in that conversation. Are the

:21:03.:21:06.

Russians on side for this great new transitional government? So far, I

:21:07.:21:12.

think we have heard from the Russians, the British Government

:21:13.:21:16.

keeps telling us they are. I haven't heard anything from Moscow that the

:21:17.:21:19.

Russians agree that al-Assad has to go. It is massively complicated.

:21:20.:21:25.

There are no easy answers. The understatement of the night! The

:21:26.:21:31.

problem is that the people who are against military action fixate on

:21:32.:21:36.

the problems and understandably so. I just think that bemoaning the fact

:21:37.:21:40.

it is complicated is not a solution and I think at least now that we

:21:41.:21:45.

have had a decision, we will be a full part of the coalition that

:21:46.:21:49.

gives us greater influence to try and make something good come out of

:21:50.:21:56.

all this chaos. Shashank Joshi, I thought the first rule was you were

:21:57.:22:00.

not meant to go into war unless you could see your way out of it? In '91

:22:01.:22:06.

we were still there when we invaded in 2003 in Iraq. I'm sceptical of

:22:07.:22:11.

Phil Hammond's confidence that we will be done in four years, given

:22:12.:22:16.

how much he is relying on a successful political process. I am

:22:17.:22:19.

delighted he's managed to get Iran and Saudi Arabia around the same

:22:20.:22:23.

table, that is fantastic, a real achievement. If you listen what Iran

:22:24.:22:26.

says when it is at the table, if you consider the fact that the

:22:27.:22:30.

opposition groups are not at that table, Turkey and Russia are at

:22:31.:22:33.

loggerheads after the downing of the jet, I'm more sceptical that the

:22:34.:22:40.

transition will operate as smoothly as he hopes. It is complicated. We

:22:41.:22:47.

can go to the Commons, we will talk to - I tell you what, the debate in

:22:48.:22:56.

recent days has been a painful one for the Labour Party.

:22:57.:22:58.

If Jeremy Corbyn believes in anything,

:22:59.:22:59.

it is in voting down military action of the kind now proposed.

:23:00.:23:01.

And he has party members on his side.

:23:02.:23:02.

Well, because we've had confirmation today that tens of his MPs have

:23:03.:23:07.

taken a different view, including his own Shadow Foreign Secretary.

:23:08.:23:11.

And the debate today was a moment for the non-Corbyn wing

:23:12.:23:13.

of the party - including some of the big beasts - to have their say.

:23:14.:23:18.

Our French allies have explicitly asked us for such support and I

:23:19.:23:26.

invite the House to consider how we would feel, and what we would say,

:23:27.:23:30.

if what took place in Paris had happened in London, if we had asked

:23:31.:23:36.

France for support and France had refused. I wish I had the

:23:37.:23:43.

self-righteous certitude of the finger-jabbing representatives of

:23:44.:23:48.

our new and kinder type of politics who will no doubt soon be contacting

:23:49.:23:52.

those of us who support this motion tonight. I think some of the people

:23:53.:23:58.

on the front bench now, and the people who are heckling behind me,

:23:59.:24:01.

need to think carefully about the way in which they have conducted

:24:02.:24:06.

themselves over recent weeks. We need to do better than this to be a

:24:07.:24:12.

credible official opposition. Some of the voices in support of the war.

:24:13.:24:17.

We can talk to Diane Abbott, who was not among those supporting the war.

:24:18.:24:23.

Good evening. I know Margaret Beckett is with you. Margaret

:24:24.:24:28.

Beckett gave a barnstorming speech in favour of the war, people thought

:24:29.:24:35.

it was quite decisive. Can you be friends with Margaret Beckett now

:24:36.:24:38.

this vote is over? Of course, we have known each other for many

:24:39.:24:44.

years. Hilary Benn made a magnificent speech, it was just

:24:45.:24:47.

wrong. The most telling thing about this debate is, at the end of the

:24:48.:24:51.

debate, although ever since Paris there has been a drum beat for war

:24:52.:24:54.

in the media, the vast majority of the Labour Party, the majority of

:24:55.:24:56.

Labour MPs, and a substantial number the Labour Party, the majority of

:24:57.:25:00.

of Shadow Cabinet members, are in the same position as Jeremy. I think

:25:01.:25:07.

that public opinion very soon will tire of Cameron's war. Months after

:25:08.:25:13.

an election, you can get away with this kind of division, in which the

:25:14.:25:17.

Foreign Secretary and the Shadow Foreign Secretary, and the leader

:25:18.:25:21.

are disagreeing. If this was months before a General Election, you

:25:22.:25:24.

wouldn't be able to get away with this, would you? First of all, I

:25:25.:25:29.

would argue the party as a whole is not divided. The party as a whole,

:25:30.:25:37.

members, the NEC, MPs take Jeremy's position. This has been a tragic

:25:38.:25:40.

vote tonight. We should be thinking of the people of Raqqa when those

:25:41.:25:44.

bombers fly over them in the next 24 hours. To be honest, it doesn't seem

:25:45.:25:49.

credible to say the party isn't divided. Very senior people in the

:25:50.:25:53.

party clearly are divided and the members are divided. It may not be

:25:54.:25:58.

split down the middle. You have a big wing who are not reconciled to

:25:59.:26:03.

the point of view you have on this. I think you will find that the

:26:04.:26:08.

majority, the vast majority of party members, and the majority of MPs,

:26:09.:26:19.

support Jeremy's position. The thing they aren't reconciled to is the

:26:20.:26:21.

fact their candidate lost the election. You are disagreeing on

:26:22.:26:27.

something that I guess is one of the things on which you feel most

:26:28.:26:31.

strongly, is that correct? What is difficult for me is journalists want

:26:32.:26:35.

to make this a story about Labour splits rather than what I think has

:26:36.:26:45.

been a very tragic decision tonight. Diane Abbott, would you encourage

:26:46.:26:49.

members of the party, or members of pressure groups within the party,

:26:50.:26:53.

there is one called Momentum, would you encourage them to punish the

:26:54.:26:59.

MPs, like Margaret Beckett who supported today's Government motion?

:27:00.:27:04.

Of course not. That would be absurd. Jeremy deliberately allowed a free

:27:05.:27:07.

vote so people should feel free to voice their opinion and vote the way

:27:08.:27:11.

they wanted. There will be no question of anybody being punished

:27:12.:27:14.

or marginalised because of the way they spoke or voted tonight. I'm

:27:15.:27:18.

sure many will be very pleased to hear that. Thank you. Let's go back

:27:19.:27:26.

to Emily on the Green. I have a couple more noes here. You

:27:27.:27:38.

tabled that amendment against the vote. The numbers stacked up against

:27:39.:27:42.

you, but what was the message you took away from that? The message was

:27:43.:27:45.

the House of Commons is divided on this issue. OK, we lost by 150, but

:27:46.:27:51.

there was still 200-plus who said we don't think there is a comprehensive

:27:52.:27:56.

strategy here, we have real concerns about the so-called 70,000 moderates

:27:57.:28:01.

that are going to be the land force, and we have many questions

:28:02.:28:05.

unanswered about things like absence of challenging Daesh on social

:28:06.:28:11.

media, on business and financial interests so still lots of questions

:28:12.:28:14.

unanswered. The task for the Government is to put this strategy

:28:15.:28:17.

into place because I'm not convinced they have got it at the moment.

:28:18.:28:24.

You have been here before with numbers that may not have spelt the

:28:25.:28:30.

end of the story, Libya, curious bedfellows, Dennis Skinner, Jeremy

:28:31.:28:34.

Corbyn, you think history has proved you right on that one. Only history

:28:35.:28:39.

will tell, small number on Libya, ten voted against it, a small

:28:40.:28:43.

lumber, but what it teaches you is that numbers alone does not

:28:44.:28:46.

necessarily mean the right decision has been made. A number of us are

:28:47.:28:51.

saying, all that we are saying, look at the previous interventions, the

:28:52.:28:55.

previous errors, there is one common denominator, a lack of a strategic

:28:56.:29:00.

plan that's all you through to the end, including an exit strategy, and

:29:01.:29:04.

a lack of local knowledge. This looks very similar, I am afraid. On

:29:05.:29:09.

paper, you too could not be more different, you said you did not even

:29:10.:29:13.

need to whip the vote against for the SNP, complete uniformity. What

:29:14.:29:19.

is it, when you look at all of the factors, military experience, last

:29:20.:29:23.

vote on Iraq, I'm trying to work out if there is anything that you think

:29:24.:29:28.

unites the no position now? I think there is a number of things, John

:29:29.:29:33.

has just outlined most of them, briefly, the lack of strategy for

:29:34.:29:38.

winning the peace, no plan at all for stabilisation all

:29:39.:29:42.

reconstruction. -- stabilisation and reconstruction. The efficacy of the

:29:43.:29:48.

bombing, even though supporting it, Tories on the government side, have

:29:49.:29:51.

said, this will probably make little difference. Others voted against it

:29:52.:29:54.

saying, this will make no difference. That and... Are those

:29:55.:29:59.

questions we would not have asked before Iraq, the depth and precision

:30:00.:30:07.

of that kind of questioning. Indeed, but in the aftermath of Iraq, we are

:30:08.:30:11.

writes to ask them, what did we do, we created a vacuum which was filled

:30:12.:30:16.

by IS of this world, and I fear, in the absence of a proper strategic

:30:17.:30:21.

comprehensive international plan, to win the peace, as well as any

:30:22.:30:24.

conflict, we will create an even bigger vacuum in Syria, then we

:30:25.:30:30.

created in Iraq. To be brutally honest, although the government won

:30:31.:30:35.

the vote, they did not answer a single one of those fundamental

:30:36.:30:38.

question. John, how do you see the position of Jeremy Corbyn, we see

:30:39.:30:42.

that the Shadow Cabinet voted with him, we view, against, does he now

:30:43.:30:46.

look like a bigger figure, after tonight? In matters like this, it is

:30:47.:30:52.

a matter of conscience, the greatest responsibility that Parliament has,

:30:53.:30:57.

committing troops to battle, that is what we are talking about, lives on

:30:58.:31:01.

the line, both those who are in the Armed Forces but also those on the

:31:02.:31:06.

receiving end of the bombs. A great responsibility to have, should be a

:31:07.:31:09.

matter of conscience, I suppose I would say that, my whips would agree

:31:10.:31:14.

with me. As far as I'm concerned, he did what he had to do. If you went

:31:15.:31:23.

back you think the majority of people in Scotland against military

:31:24.:31:26.

action of this kind, if you go back and face questions of, why are you

:31:27.:31:28.

not doing anything about possibly the worst enemy we have faced since

:31:29.:31:31.

the Second World War, how do you look people in the eye? We have 100

:31:32.:31:35.

things that we want to do, we should follow the money from the oil

:31:36.:31:39.

supplies... We should look at the funding for Daesh... The supply of

:31:40.:31:44.

ammunition, who is supplying it and who is paying for it? All of these

:31:45.:31:49.

actions can be taken right now, not least challenging the corrupt

:31:50.:31:52.

ideology which leads people to follow this stuff in the first

:31:53.:31:55.

place, many, many, many things we could have done which do not involve

:31:56.:32:00.

going to war in a way, in the absence of a plan for exit, which

:32:01.:32:05.

may end up being a bigger problem. The reason we are asking these

:32:06.:32:08.

questions, you will write to refer to it, Parliament has set the bar

:32:09.:32:13.

higher for intervention, look at the previous errors, whether it is Iraq,

:32:14.:32:19.

Helmand Libya, even two years ago, when we stop the government from

:32:20.:32:22.

signing with the other side, in the Civil War, it is right that

:32:23.:32:29.

Parliament asks these questions and hold the executive to account. Some

:32:30.:32:31.

of the names and numbers have been filtering through, Rosie Winterton

:32:32.:32:35.

Labour Chief Whip, has abstained, that is what we understand so far,

:32:36.:32:41.

we think that nine other Labour MPs voted. -- abstained, along with her.

:32:42.:32:45.

That starts to show you some of the pictures are merging.

:32:46.:32:48.

Let's go to Damascus now. Lyce Doucet is there.

:32:49.:33:02.

Is anybody taking any notice of this British decision in the Syrian

:33:03.:33:11.

capital? I think that we have got to see it in perspective, the day began

:33:12.:33:15.

here, in Syria, with the newspapers not making a single mention about

:33:16.:33:20.

this debate in Britain, which unfolded, as we have seen throughout

:33:21.:33:25.

the day, with such intensity and symbolism, and most people that we

:33:26.:33:28.

spoke to today did not know about it, when we asked them about whether

:33:29.:33:33.

they care, whether they supported, whether Britain would join the air

:33:34.:33:36.

campaign, most of them said, they would welcome any action against the

:33:37.:33:41.

so-called Islamic State. The centre of Damascus is under Syrian and

:33:42.:33:47.

control, president Bashar al-Assad has his greatest supporter here,

:33:48.:33:50.

many were scathing, they said this is too little, too late, and it is

:33:51.:33:55.

not going to work unless the coalition, now that Britain has now

:33:56.:33:59.

joined it in the air campaign, ordinate actions with president

:34:00.:34:02.

Bashar al-Assad and the Syrian army. That is not going to happen, even

:34:03.:34:06.

though Russia has been calling for it. The real problem in this, now

:34:07.:34:11.

that the war is intensifying, the air strikes have started, they have

:34:12.:34:15.

gone on for more than a year, they have not stop the advance of Islamic

:34:16.:34:22.

state, president Bashar al-Assad were scathing about that, but there

:34:23.:34:25.

is another war that he's been going on for five years, the war between

:34:26.:34:31.

the forces of a growing array of Syrian opposition forces and the

:34:32.:34:33.

forces of Bashar al-Assad, fundamentally most of them believe

:34:34.:34:38.

this is the war that matters. For all of the statement and symbolism

:34:39.:34:42.

in London, what matters in a country where a life everyday is a matter of

:34:43.:34:46.

life or death, where hardship grows by the day, a country ravaged, where

:34:47.:34:52.

one third of the people here, 6.3 million people are dependent upon

:34:53.:34:57.

food aid in order to survive, they want results, they want this war to

:34:58.:35:01.

end, not to intensify, and make life even worse and cause even more

:35:02.:35:05.

Syrians to take that Trail heading to Europe. Thank you very much

:35:06.:35:07.

indeed. How much, housing, and to what

:35:08.:35:19.

effect will we have military action? -- how soon. It could start

:35:20.:35:26.

straight, we have eight Tornado ground attack aircraft based in

:35:27.:35:27.

Cyprus, aircraft that have ground attack aircraft based in

:35:28.:35:33.

bombing Iraq already, we are already plugged into the targeting analysis

:35:34.:35:38.

centre in Qatar, and so theoretically, these jets could be

:35:39.:35:40.

redirected to Syria, almost immediately. We will be sending out

:35:41.:35:46.

more jets, that is really so that we can conduct missions simultaneously

:35:47.:35:51.

in Iraq and in Syria, at the same time, when will this happen? Well,

:35:52.:35:56.

probably not tomorrow, but I reckon it'll probably be in the next 48 72

:35:57.:36:00.

hours, we will see this operation having started. As for the likely

:36:01.:36:06.

effect, even the British military do not want to exaggerate the impact,

:36:07.:36:09.

as one had said to me earlier today, an officer, Britain is getting

:36:10.:36:14.

involved with a maximum amount of knowledge but with an economy of

:36:15.:36:18.

military effort. One of the most interesting and contentious claims

:36:19.:36:21.

in the whole debate has been the issue of 70,000 potential fighters

:36:22.:36:26.

who are not jihadists and not supporters of Bashar al-Assad, we

:36:27.:36:29.

have been looking at that claim and who they are. Ever since David

:36:30.:36:34.

Cameron mentioned this in a debate on Thursday, last week, it has been

:36:35.:36:42.

a bone of contention. That is because the great unknown in all of

:36:43.:36:45.

this is who is going to fight the ground war? Who is going to be in

:36:46.:36:49.

hand to hand combat with Islamic State? What David Cameron appeared

:36:50.:36:52.

to be doing last week was providing us with an answer. MPs from all

:36:53.:36:56.

sides of the house have raised concerns about this, it was

:36:57.:37:00.

certainly one of the most contentious issues in today's

:37:01.:37:01.

debate. VOICEOVER: We know that there is

:37:02.:37:10.

Syrian rebel fighters. Delay number 70,000? With a fight for us? Where

:37:11.:37:16.

did that figure come from? -- are there are 70,000? Today, David

:37:17.:37:21.

Cameron stuck to his guns, with qualification. I am not arguing,

:37:22.:37:26.

this is crucial, that all of the 70,000 are somehow ideal partners,

:37:27.:37:30.

some have left the Syrian army because of the brutality of Bashar

:37:31.:37:33.

al-Assad, they clearly can play a role in the future of Syria. This

:37:34.:37:38.

analyst, Charles Lister, thinks the number is about right, he defines

:37:39.:37:44.

moderates as being both opposed to Isil, and the group that the

:37:45.:37:47.

coalition wants to work with, it is complicated, but he cites 25,000

:37:48.:37:53.

members belonging to 58 factions of the free Syrian Army boss southern

:37:54.:37:58.

front, in areas like Damascus. He says another 20,000 FSA fighters

:37:59.:38:05.

from 14 factions are found in the North, in Homs, Hama and it live and

:38:06.:38:13.

Aleppo. Another 40,000, belonging of -- another 30,000 have been

:38:14.:38:19.

identified. -- Idlib. This makes a total of 75,000. As Charles Lister

:38:20.:38:23.

excepts, even if the maths adds up, another problem, experts we have

:38:24.:38:27.

spoken to say that there is just no way that that many Rebels would take

:38:28.:38:32.

up arms against Islamic State, their focus at the moment is defending the

:38:33.:38:35.

civilian population against the forces of Bashar al-Assad, Islamic

:38:36.:38:41.

State just is not a priority. In fact, in areas where the Rebels have

:38:42.:38:45.

managed to push back Islamic State, they have then been pounded by

:38:46.:38:49.

president Bashar al-Assad's air force, even if they had the

:38:50.:38:52.

wherewithal to do it, they have very little incentive to do so. Were you

:38:53.:38:57.

surprised that David Cameron used that 70,000 figure? I was, the

:38:58.:39:02.

problem is it was not put into context and not broken down into

:39:03.:39:05.

what these groups represent, what their actual power base is in the

:39:06.:39:09.

country and what change they could affect on the ground if a UK

:39:10.:39:13.

strategy were to openly back them. The same as the 70,000 group, it is

:39:14.:39:19.

not really explaining how they are able to assist us in fighting Isis,

:39:20.:39:22.

to some of these fighters have almost no power on the ground

:39:23.:39:26.

whatsoever, because they are aligned to much more powerful groups that do

:39:27.:39:30.

not fight Isis, and some are sectarian and Islamist, not the kind

:39:31.:39:34.

of people you would like to be in alliance with. In the Commons today,

:39:35.:39:38.

scorn from the Tory chair of the defence committee, he drew a

:39:39.:39:43.

comparison with history. Instead of having dodgy dossiers, we now have

:39:44.:39:50.

bogus battalions, of " moderate fighters"! SHOUTING

:39:51.:39:57.

Iraq in 2003, Syria in 2015, different wars, with different

:39:58.:40:04.

dossiers, but a reminder of the perils of overstating the case. Some

:40:05.:40:08.

unease in Whitehall about the use of this 70,000 figure, no other

:40:09.:40:12.

government relies upon it. Officials privately whisper, it was probably a

:40:13.:40:17.

mistake for the Prime Minister to be so precise. Whether he meant it or

:40:18.:40:23.

not, this is the figure against which David Cameron will now be

:40:24.:40:27.

judged. If the Rebels to emerge in their tens of thousands to banish

:40:28.:40:31.

Isil, he will be vindicated, if they do not, 70,000 is the number that

:40:32.:40:34.

will come back to haunt him. STUDIO: Until January this year,

:40:35.:40:42.

Hadi Al-Bahra was President of the National Coalition for Syrian

:40:43.:40:45.

Revolutionary and Opposition Forces. Your reaction to the decision of the

:40:46.:40:56.

British Parliament to enter this action against Isil. Thank God! I

:40:57.:41:06.

think they have taken the right decision, although it was late,

:41:07.:41:11.

better late than never! They acted responsibly, and wisely, and we hope

:41:12.:41:17.

to have a successful campaign against combating all terrorism, and

:41:18.:41:24.

extremism, in that area. However, you would really like the British to

:41:25.:41:28.

be involved against Bashar al-Assad, as well? Shaw, winning the campaign

:41:29.:41:37.

against terrorism, it cannot be won only by military means. We have

:41:38.:41:43.

really to deal with the root causes of extremism, and terrorism, in the

:41:44.:41:49.

area, and mainly, the tyranny of the regime, the Richie McCaw Bashar

:41:50.:41:53.

al-Assad, the corruption, in the area, and also the poverty in the

:41:54.:41:59.

area. We have to deal on all fronts in order for us to have a successful

:42:00.:42:06.

campaign against terrorism, we have been acting against Al-Qaeda for

:42:07.:42:08.

more than 15 years. What have we got? We have got Isis, more extreme,

:42:09.:42:17.

the organisation, more extreme than Al-Qaeda, a horrible terrorist

:42:18.:42:23.

organisation. That is why, because we acted only on military front, we

:42:24.:42:28.

did not act really on the social and economic reasons. Which created

:42:29.:42:34.

terrorism and extremism in the area. A lot has been said about the

:42:35.:42:38.

process which began in Vienna, hopefully leading to some political

:42:39.:42:43.

solution, everybody here is talking about how this might work, they are

:42:44.:42:46.

suggesting there might be a political settlement involving

:42:47.:42:51.

Bashar al-Assad. Stepping aside, but perhaps in a transitional way, can

:42:52.:42:56.

you work with the Vienna process, as I understand it, none of the Syrians

:42:57.:43:00.

are in the process, it is all the foreign powers, can you work within

:43:01.:43:06.

the Vienna process? For us we have acted responsibly. With all of the

:43:07.:43:11.

United Nations efforts, since the previous regime. -- since the

:43:12.:43:17.

previous conferences, Geneva one and Geneva two, now we are ready to act

:43:18.:43:23.

very positively, and actively, with the current efforts of the

:43:24.:43:27.

international community, through Vienna, and through the

:43:28.:43:31.

reactivation, really, of the Geneva conference, to comply and implement

:43:32.:43:36.

the communique from the first Geneva conference. Many people will regard

:43:37.:43:41.

that as helpful. Last question, 70,000, non-jihadists, non-Bashar

:43:42.:43:46.

al-Assad fighters, who could potentially go in and help in a

:43:47.:43:47.

ground war against Isil... ? Yes, we have moderate forces on the

:43:48.:44:00.

ground ready to fight Isis, they have been fighting Isis. We fought

:44:01.:44:07.

Isis since 2013 without receiving really the proper aid and assistance

:44:08.:44:12.

from the international community. We have been through this battle alone.

:44:13.:44:17.

We fought two fronts, one front against the tyranny of al-Assad

:44:18.:44:20.

regime and the second front against Isil. So now we are ready to

:44:21.:44:28.

continue our fight but it has to be an organised fight, it has to be

:44:29.:44:32.

assisted by the international community. This is not Syrian

:44:33.:44:36.

problem alone. It's international problem. These fighters they came to

:44:37.:44:41.

Syria from all the country from all over the world, they came from the

:44:42.:44:46.

US, from England, from France, from the Arab world, from every corner on

:44:47.:44:52.

the Earth. So all of us, we have to act really in unity against

:44:53.:44:57.

terrorism and extremism. Hadi Al-Bahra, thank you. Let's go back

:44:58.:45:04.

to College Green and get the latest there. Emily?

:45:05.:45:07.

Since we have been on air, some of the protesters that have been

:45:08.:45:10.

gathering in Parliament Square have started to bring their banners and

:45:11.:45:15.

their chants down closer behind the cameras, perhaps you can hear them.

:45:16.:45:19.

They are saying, "Shame on you, don't bomb Syria." We think it is

:45:20.:45:25.

mostly the Stop The War Coalition. We saw the momentum of the Stop The

:45:26.:45:30.

War campaigners over the weekend, so that has been something that they

:45:31.:45:34.

are now feeling incredibly strongly about, given those vote numbers,

:45:35.:45:38.

that are stacking up, which seem to indicate, which really do indicate

:45:39.:45:43.

that David Cameron has the mandate to extend those air strikes into

:45:44.:45:47.

Syria, which, as we have been hearing, could be any time in 72

:45:48.:45:52.

hours. The curious thing is, the place behind me is accused of Punch

:45:53.:45:58.

and Judy politics. Today it was anything but that. There was real

:45:59.:46:01.

soul-searching, rigorous questioning and there was heart-felt argument

:46:02.:46:06.

and debate. Perhaps one of the finest pieces of oratory came at the

:46:07.:46:10.

end of that marathon ten-hour session and it came from the Shadow

:46:11.:46:14.

Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, who seemed to grow in stature as he

:46:15.:46:20.

spoke, always courteous, but very, very impassioned with what he said

:46:21.:46:26.

and he was cheered from all sides. Curious to see the Government front

:46:27.:46:30.

bench clapping him on as he took to his feet and spoke. This is what he

:46:31.:46:34.

said. They hold our values in contempt, they hold our belief in

:46:35.:46:39.

tolerance and decency in contempt, they hold our democracy, the means

:46:40.:46:43.

by which we will make our decision tonight in contempt! What we know

:46:44.:46:51.

about fascists is that they need to be defeated. Hilary Benn speaking

:46:52.:46:58.

there right at the very end of the ten-hour debate. Our political

:46:59.:47:01.

editor is with me. That seemed to be something of a game-changer, or a

:47:02.:47:06.

moment, people are saying that he really sort of grew in the eyes of

:47:07.:47:10.

many listening there? For many people, he has during the week, so

:47:11.:47:14.

67 Labour people voted with the Government, to give you the detail.

:47:15.:47:20.

Seven Conservative rebels have voted against their leader, but it is down

:47:21.:47:29.

on what we were talking about earlier. It is lower and then seven

:47:30.:47:34.

abstentions. Let's go back to that Labour number. I have been texted

:47:35.:47:39.

already to say that people who have been organising against Jeremy

:47:40.:47:41.

Corbyn and this group Momentum, these people who have been e-mailing

:47:42.:47:46.

Labour MPs, who were wavering, to say this is how you need to vote,

:47:47.:48:06.

you need to be anti this war. They think 67 is amazing. Against this,

:48:07.:48:11.

Jeremy Corbyn's team is putting out this evening that firstly a majority

:48:12.:48:15.

of the Shadow Cabinet supported the Labour Leader, which is quite

:48:16.:48:18.

extraordinary given... 16, we have just had that number, 16 supporting

:48:19.:48:25.

Jeremy Corbyn. 11 against him. You would struggle to find 16 who you

:48:26.:48:30.

would say would vote in that way. He has inspired some kind of loyalty.

:48:31.:48:33.

The other thing that Jeremy Corbyn's team is saying that over 150 MPs

:48:34.:48:39.

supporting him, he is enhanced this evening. Even though this evening

:48:40.:48:43.

David Cameron has won this vote, he of all people will know that support

:48:44.:48:47.

in this country for military intervention is very, very hard-won

:48:48.:48:51.

and evaporates very quickly. If there is any "mission creep" or any

:48:52.:48:55.

sense that it is going on too long, then things will turn against David

:48:56.:49:04.

Cameron. It could be that Jeremy Corbyn is prophetic. Once you have

:49:05.:49:09.

been through those numbers, we will be crunching them to work out who

:49:10.:49:14.

took whose side and how they fell. I think what will be remembered most

:49:15.:49:18.

of all is some of the speeches that we have heard, that real sense of

:49:19.:49:21.

MPs asking themselves the questions that perhaps they didn't ask last

:49:22.:49:25.

time round, there has been a ghost of Iraq on many of the shoulders,

:49:26.:49:29.

the poignancy, the precision, the depth of the questioning this time

:49:30.:49:33.

round seems to undermine a sense that many of those questions weren't

:49:34.:49:37.

asked properly last time around. So, you have heard a few of the speeches

:49:38.:49:40.

that have come through and it will be interesting to look back over the

:49:41.:49:46.

years and just see what has come to what many spoke about this evening.

:49:47.:49:48.

Back to Evan. Thank you. The voice of British Muslims is

:49:49.:49:52.

important in the arguments over military action - although we

:49:53.:49:54.

shouldn't assume there is only one Secunder Kermani has spent the day

:49:55.:49:56.

in High Wycombe - a community that's been in the spotlight after

:49:57.:50:00.

at least two young men It's a typical commuter town, but on

:50:01.:50:20.

these suburban streets foreign policy matters. High Wycombe has a

:50:21.:50:24.

large British Muslim population and many here are unhappy with Western

:50:25.:50:30.

governments. People have given up hope nowadays, the community doesn't

:50:31.:50:35.

have that much hope anymore. They do stuff like this, to share their

:50:36.:50:38.

thoughts with everyone, every day you walk past, you will see these

:50:39.:50:40.

same things. There had been a picture of Osama

:50:41.:50:46.

Bin Laden here, statements of resistance, if not support, perhaps.

:50:47.:50:51.

Zayn has been following the debate on air strikes in Syria. I'm not in

:50:52.:50:55.

favour of them. There is a small part of me which is not against them

:50:56.:50:59.

either in the sense that I think that I believe that those bombs are

:51:00.:51:05.

going to go and hit Isis and they will hit the terrorists that are

:51:06.:51:10.

giving us Muslims the bad name. They should be destroyed, not the

:51:11.:51:14.

innocents. This confuses me. Like I said, you can go and you can bomb

:51:15.:51:20.

Syria as much as you like, but you are killing innocent people. Down

:51:21.:51:23.

the road, there is a sense of anger at the prospect of more bombs in a

:51:24.:51:28.

Muslim country. They shouldn't do it. They will kill innocent people.

:51:29.:51:31.

How do you think the Government should be fighting against Isis if

:51:32.:51:37.

they are not doing air strikes? I don't know. Bombing is not, it is

:51:38.:51:41.

not worth bombing because you will kill a lot of innocent people. They

:51:42.:51:47.

should do it another way. In the mosques, they are aware that a

:51:48.:51:54.

number of young men from the area have joined Isis. Some people would

:51:55.:51:58.

say foreign policy is used as an excuse, it is not the real reason.

:51:59.:52:04.

Half of their targets are Shias, or other Muslims. If you analyse the

:52:05.:52:09.

statements of jihadis that have killed themselves, more and one have

:52:10.:52:14.

cited their reasons, and they include foreign policy. This is one

:52:15.:52:20.

area of concern that every jihadist has said and then they have blown

:52:21.:52:24.

themselves and others up. We need to take it seriously. This man was

:52:25.:52:29.

friends with one of those from the area now with Isis. We are

:52:30.:52:33.

protecting his identity. How does it feel thinking they could be on the

:52:34.:52:36.

receiving end of British bombs in Syria? That is a choice they have

:52:37.:52:42.

made. I'm not concerned about them. My main concern is the innocent men,

:52:43.:52:46.

women and children that can't get to refuge. More concern should be going

:52:47.:52:49.

over them than people who are going into that situation. You have seen

:52:50.:52:53.

the Isis ideology, does there need to be a military solution to

:52:54.:52:55.

defeating them? Is any other way to be a military solution to

:52:56.:52:59.

possible? Most people would say it seems like there isn't? I think it's

:53:00.:53:02.

gone too far. There is an issue that has to be faced. But does that

:53:03.:53:07.

justify increasing a humanitarian crisis? These guys, they don't just

:53:08.:53:13.

give up because you are throwing bombs on their heads. Everyone we

:53:14.:53:20.

spoke to opposes Isis, but for some, angry at Government policies

:53:21.:53:23.

affecting Muslims here and abroad, there is a perception the air

:53:24.:53:26.

strikes are the latest Western mistake. Secunder Kermani there. You

:53:27.:53:34.

heard from Lyse Doucet that people weren't aware we were having this

:53:35.:53:37.

vote in Syria. I was interested to see the

:53:38.:53:38.

New York Times report on today's It described the vote as -

:53:39.:53:40.

and I quote - one that's "become a wider test of British

:53:41.:53:42.

willingness to play an active role The issue has always been more

:53:43.:53:44.

about alliance solidarity and leadership than about strict

:53:45.:53:50.

military or strategic utility". The piece didn't mention

:53:51.:53:56.

our famed Brimstone missiles. And that may get to the heart

:53:57.:53:59.

of it - the decision is as much about top-table places, as it is

:54:00.:54:02.

about extra military firepower. To finish the programme, I'm still

:54:03.:54:14.

with my panel of three. First, let's reflect, if this fails, or if it

:54:15.:54:19.

appears to have failed, Max Hastings that, is the end of it for votes

:54:20.:54:23.

like this on future military interventions for decades? I don't

:54:24.:54:28.

think this has been a great day for democracy. A lot of what was said in

:54:29.:54:32.

the House of Commons was tosh. Hilary Benn substituted intense

:54:33.:54:36.

emotion and passion for intense discussion. I'm strongly in favour

:54:37.:54:39.

of military action. If one is convinced it is going to work. I

:54:40.:54:43.

think we are wading into a hell of a mess in Syria. We will end up having

:54:44.:54:48.

ground troops there and a lot of what David Cameron has said in

:54:49.:54:50.

defence of this policy is for the fairies. I don't think it will

:54:51.:54:54.

happen. I think it will have to be Western ground troops and it will be

:54:55.:54:57.

a hell of a mess unless the Russians change their spots dramatically.

:54:58.:55:00.

That must really depress you for someone who does believe in the

:55:01.:55:05.

power of intervention? I do. I think this is a mistaken one. It will be

:55:06.:55:10.

hard to make the case again if this one fails? I'm amazed that David

:55:11.:55:15.

Cameron can make many of the arguments he used for that

:55:16.:55:20.

disastrous intervention in Libya and most of the House of Commons is

:55:21.:55:23.

willing to go with him and they are bonkers. You are bonkers in his view

:55:24.:55:29.

as well, Deborah? The issue is, we have already committed, it is not

:55:30.:55:33.

like we have embarked on a new war today. We were already at war, we

:55:34.:55:37.

already decided last year that we were with the United States, with

:55:38.:55:47.

France. It's all very well thinking how we can get to the endgame. We

:55:48.:55:56.

are here, we are acting. The 2013 vote when Britain said no to air

:55:57.:56:01.

strikes against President al-Assad's regime, you can argue the rights and

:56:02.:56:07.

wrongs of that. It undermined our confidence, it undermined our status

:56:08.:56:11.

in the world, as a military power. You are saying the Alliance, right

:56:12.:56:18.

or wrong? I'm not saying the Alliance is right or wrong, we are

:56:19.:56:22.

in the Alliance. If we are in the Alliance, which we have been for the

:56:23.:56:25.

last year, we should be fully in, as we are at the moment. It gets to

:56:26.:56:32.

what the New York Times said, Shashank Joshi. What was the phrase

:56:33.:56:37.

you used, diplomatic gesture? One of the interesting things is the

:56:38.:56:41.

precedent that has been set over the last several years on going to

:56:42.:56:44.

Parliament for matters of War and Peace in this way and how tense, how

:56:45.:56:50.

finely balanced it has been. One of the interesting effects of this in

:56:51.:56:55.

the long run will be NATO allies in Eastern Europe, Baltic countries

:56:56.:57:02.

like Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, wondering if there is an Article 5

:57:03.:57:07.

issue at stake, are we going to have weeks of debate in the House of

:57:08.:57:11.

Commons about this every time the UK wishes to intervene in this way? It

:57:12.:57:16.

is not just the outcome, it is not just exorcising the ghost of 2013,

:57:17.:57:26.

where does this leave us? If we go into this escapade because we are

:57:27.:57:32.

part of a team, it means we are not sub-contracting our defence, as some

:57:33.:57:35.

people have said we would be doing, but it does mean we will be

:57:36.:57:38.

sub-contracting our thinking, we are saying, we are doing it because you

:57:39.:57:43.

are doing it. Is that the way we should make these decisions? It is

:57:44.:57:46.

more than we are doing it because you are doing it. The fact is,

:57:47.:57:52.

America and France are fundamental to our security and in a world which

:57:53.:57:56.

is so unstable, when you have got threats like Isis, you have got the

:57:57.:58:02.

actions of Russia, which are so unpredictable and Russia exploits

:58:03.:58:06.

the fact that we have this democratic process that means we

:58:07.:58:10.

need to have these crazy debates. It is really important to be unified. I

:58:11.:58:26.

do understand that - maybe I sound idealistic and with the fairies.

:58:27.:58:29.

Doing something together is better than thinking it is too difficult we

:58:30.:58:35.

can't do it. I will give you one example... That is the problem with

:58:36.:58:40.

this whole debate. It's been fixated on air power and it is so much more

:58:41.:58:46.

than that. The fact that we have committed to air power in Syria, it

:58:47.:58:52.

means we have a greater ability to influence the wider campaign. Our

:58:53.:59:01.

contribution is - the Americans have flown 56,000 sorties in Syria and

:59:02.:59:05.

Iraq. The idea that Isis will be trembling tomorrow morning because

:59:06.:59:09.

the RAF's eight Tornados are joining in, this is an example of how we

:59:10.:59:13.

delude ourselves. It is symbolic, but it is important because we are

:59:14.:59:20.

participating in the Alliance. Is this an Iraq moment? Will we look

:59:21.:59:27.

back on this vote as one of those decisive, defining votes? I don't

:59:28.:59:31.

think so. Iraq was the shattering of a large army and a state. Here,

:59:32.:59:35.

millions have fled, hundreds of thousands have died, there is a war

:59:36.:59:40.

already going on and I'm - that is why I'm dismayed by the arguments

:59:41.:59:44.

against this being civilians will die. Hundreds of thousands have died

:59:45.:59:49.

already. In that sense, it is not Libya, it is not Iraq. Thank you all

:59:50.:59:51.

very much. Although Jeremy Corbyn managed to

:59:52.:00:11.

keep his Shadow Cabinet with him, but Andy Burnham voted against,

:00:12.:00:15.

apparently influenced by the Prime Minister calling opponents

:00:16.:00:17.

"terrorist sympathisers". Well, that's it

:00:18.:00:20.

for this very important evening. The country is not entering this new

:00:21.:00:21.

military arena with any unity around the strategy -

:00:22.:00:25.

but despite a robust argument, there

:00:26.:00:28.

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