07/12/2015 Newsnight


07/12/2015

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 07/12/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Here we go again, a deluge that leaves thousands of homes

:00:00.:00:07.

Ike a current to it. It was that fast and that quick coming in, I had

:00:08.:00:27.

no choice but to literally abandon it and take myself and my little one

:00:28.:00:30.

upstairs. We can't protect ourselves

:00:31.:00:32.

from everything the weather throws at us, but we'll ask

:00:33.:00:34.

if we're even close to rising to the And Finland, the land of

:00:35.:00:37.

Santa Claus, is pondering giving

:00:38.:00:40.

a monthly income to everybody. Tyson Fury and the petition to take

:00:41.:00:43.

him off the shortlist for Nature is a capricious beast

:00:44.:00:52.

and has struck again, The rain has not just topped some

:00:53.:01:09.

relatively new flood defences in that part of the country,

:01:10.:01:14.

but has also topped the records: 34 cm in a 24-hour period - a

:01:15.:01:19.

month's worth of rain in a day between Friday and Saturday

:01:20.:01:25.

in the county. And the Met Office have said

:01:26.:01:27.

a new record had been set for rainfall over a 48-hour period,

:01:28.:01:35.

with 41 mm falling in 38 hours It's a county wearily familiar

:01:36.:01:38.

with the consequences. The Prime Minister chaired a COBRA

:01:39.:01:40.

meeting this morning, What we did after the 2009 floods is

:01:41.:01:43.

spend millions of pounds building these barriers and they have

:01:44.:01:48.

prevented floods in Carlisle I think on two occasions, but they weren't

:01:49.:01:51.

enough on this occasion when we had But after every flood,

:01:52.:01:54.

the thing to do is sit down, look at the money you're spending,

:01:55.:02:00.

look at what you're building, look at what you're planning to build in

:02:01.:02:03.

the future and ask, is it enough? It's pretty inevitable that people

:02:04.:02:06.

will ask "are we doing enough" to prevent flooding, as they do

:02:07.:02:12.

after each episode like this. It may be rational to say,

:02:13.:02:18.

we're not going to bother defending against a flood that occurs only

:02:19.:02:20.

once every 100 years. But what if we keep having

:02:21.:02:23.

floods that are only meant The problem is that if some kind

:02:24.:02:26.

of climate change is occurring, it may be that the statistics relating

:02:27.:02:31.

to the last 100 years are hopeless Nick Hopkins has been looking

:02:32.:02:34.

at how much we spend on flood Flooded and fed up. For so many,

:02:35.:02:54.

Christmas will be spent crying out. Drying out. In the Commons today a

:02:55.:02:58.

pledge from the Government to everyone who needs help will get it.

:02:59.:03:03.

The Government will continue to ensure that all resources are made

:03:04.:03:07.

available to support recovery from this flooding. COBRA will continue

:03:08.:03:11.

to meet daily to oversee recovery efforts, and I will be travelling to

:03:12.:03:15.

Cumbria and Lancashire after this statement to continue to ensure we

:03:16.:03:19.

are doing all we can to help those affected. But as floodwaters recede,

:03:20.:03:27.

recriminations begin. Labour today accused the Government of breaking

:03:28.:03:33.

spending promises. The figures show spending on flood defences hit ?670

:03:34.:03:39.

million in 2010. Before it was slashed under the coalition

:03:40.:03:43.

Government. The winter floods of late 2013 and early 2014 prompted an

:03:44.:03:48.

emergency injection of Government cash. But spending this year will

:03:49.:03:56.

indeed dip. There is money to throw at the problem. Devastation two

:03:57.:04:01.

years ago prompted Ministers to pledge ?2.3 billion of new spending

:04:02.:04:07.

over the next six years. But experts warn cuts elsewhere could leave us

:04:08.:04:13.

vulnerable. I think the question there is, how have the various

:04:14.:04:19.

Spending Reviews affected all the other organisations that maintain

:04:20.:04:23.

our flood defences of different sorts, all different assets, be they

:04:24.:04:28.

highways, water companies and so on. Keswick in Cumbria. This is worse

:04:29.:04:33.

than the flooding seen here in 2009. That was meant to be a once in a

:04:34.:04:40.

century event. It wasn't. And that's no accident, say some. We need to

:04:41.:04:44.

have a long-term strategy. We definitely need to use the science

:04:45.:04:49.

that we are developing now, which indicate there is going to be a

:04:50.:04:53.

continuous change in extreme rainfall in flooding and we need to

:04:54.:04:58.

put that into policy to make sure our populations are resilient. So

:04:59.:05:01.

that policy doesn't exist at the moment? In some parts it does, but

:05:02.:05:07.

it could be improved. The threat of flooding is one thing. Ensuring

:05:08.:05:12.

against it another. Premiums of ?25,000 a year are not unheard of.

:05:13.:05:17.

Insurers will club together next year to spread the risk, a scheme

:05:18.:05:22.

which should bring the bills down. I It will give people more access to

:05:23.:05:28.

insurance, but it is a partial fix. Which sits alongside our choice of

:05:29.:05:34.

where to build and our choice of how we build. Could extreme weather

:05:35.:05:42.

require extreme answers? As some areas, are some areas now too great

:05:43.:05:48.

a flood risk? I think it is realistic to that some places will

:05:49.:05:55.

be unsustainable in the future. Now people might choose hot to live in

:05:56.:06:00.

an area of flood risk. People who stay might have to consider flood

:06:01.:06:04.

proofing their house, raising it up or changing the sockets. You can do

:06:05.:06:09.

a lot of things, or learn to live with the flooding, which is another

:06:10.:06:15.

option. Many people do live with flooding quite happily. It is about

:06:16.:06:19.

a choice but we have to be able to support people in that choice. It is

:06:20.:06:24.

not that easy when you are actually flooded and your home has been

:06:25.:06:27.

destroyed to rationally think about whether you can stay in that area.

:06:28.:06:32.

These floods weren't the first. And they won't be the last. And they may

:06:33.:06:42.

get much worse. John Sweeney is in Carlisle in Cumbria and he joins us

:06:43.:06:47.

now. Give us some of the impressions you've been picking up today as

:06:48.:06:52.

you've been there. I've seen worse tragedies in my time, but it is grim

:06:53.:06:57.

up here. I've been speaking to a chap who was helping his name, who

:06:58.:07:03.

is 93, and it is her birthday today. Frankly she said to her neighbour,

:07:04.:07:08.

listen, I don't want to go home ever again. I've had enough of floods.

:07:09.:07:14.

She is worried the police might have knocked down her front door and that

:07:15.:07:19.

looters may have come in. I don't think it is a massive reality, but

:07:20.:07:23.

the it is a fear. How did this happen? In 2005 there was a big

:07:24.:07:30.

flood here. Flood defences were built and they were 23 feet height.

:07:31.:07:35.

The water came in over the weekend at 25 feet. The result is thousands

:07:36.:07:41.

of people have had their homes flooded, and many hundreds are

:07:42.:07:45.

industrial without power, including this area where we are now. It is a

:07:46.:07:50.

grim story and this is the film we've made about it, which we'll

:07:51.:07:54.

show now. Water, water, everywhere and not a drop to drink. The floods

:07:55.:07:59.

are not just a catastrophe, but the people here in Cumbria and the

:08:00.:08:04.

north-west of England they are bad news for the Government and the

:08:05.:08:10.

taxpayer too. Ten years ago a great flood happened here in Carlisle. It

:08:11.:08:15.

was described as a once in a 100 years event. The bad news, it has

:08:16.:08:20.

happened again. Not once in a century but twice in a decade. The

:08:21.:08:28.

great flood of 1853 set the record for flooding here in Carlisle. That

:08:29.:08:33.

level was toppeded in 2005 by half a metre. This weekend the water

:08:34.:08:40.

summered a further half a metre, higher again. After the 2005 floods,

:08:41.:08:47.

the Government spent ?38 million on new flood defences here. Some locals

:08:48.:08:52.

could be forgiven for wondering whether that money was poured down

:08:53.:08:58.

the drain. You could hear cracking. We thought the French patio doors

:08:59.:09:04.

had cracked, but it was the wooden flooring, it has risen up. Have you

:09:05.:09:12.

got kids? We've got a 1-year-old and a 17-year-old. They are my aunty's.

:09:13.:09:18.

And how were they? Milly is special needs. She was really scared. She

:09:19.:09:24.

ended up going out on a boat with the Life Guards yesterday afternoon.

:09:25.:09:30.

You can blame this flood on global warming, or say that it has got

:09:31.:09:34.

nothing whatsoever to do with it. There's a big argument about that

:09:35.:09:39.

happening in Paris right now. But people in Cumbria say the flood

:09:40.:09:46.

defences have let them down. Tonight the tally stands at 4,000 homes

:09:47.:09:50.

flooded. Many are still without electricity. For now, from here,

:09:51.:09:57.

Britain's flood defences don't look that great.

:09:58.:10:00.

Here with me now to discuss some of these issues is the Conservative MP,

:10:01.:10:03.

Neil Parish, who is chair of the Select Committee for Environment,

:10:04.:10:06.

Food and Rural Affairs and also has a farm in Somerset, which was struck

:10:07.:10:09.

Good evening to you. Just on the funding, and I don't want to get

:10:10.:10:21.

into pernickety argument about whether it is 1 periods up or 1%

:10:22.:10:26.

down, but is the settlement higher than previous Parliaments? It is

:10:27.:10:28.

about the same as previous Parliaments. I think the big

:10:29.:10:32.

argument now is, do we need to spend more? My heart goes out to the

:10:33.:10:38.

people of Cumbria. We were flooded in 1981 with sea floods with where I

:10:39.:10:44.

farm and that was really bad. Lost a lot of sheep and the house was

:10:45.:10:53.

flooded. Are we spending enough of our resource to defend ourselves

:10:54.:10:56.

from the sea and from Inland Regional Centre flooding? That's my

:10:57.:11:00.

question to you. Are we spending enough? More or less. We are saying

:11:01.:11:09.

we are doing well because we are keeping spending higher than it was

:11:10.:11:13.

in the 1990s, but is it remotely enough? Figures show that for every

:11:14.:11:19.

?1 we spend on flood protection, it is worth ?4 to ?9 for the local

:11:20.:11:23.

economy. Therefore I would argue we need to spend more. We need to

:11:24.:11:27.

defend our holes against floods, and we need to defend our coast against

:11:28.:11:32.

floods. I think whether it is global warming, whether it is patterns,

:11:33.:11:36.

what wherever it is, what we can't do is allow our homes to be flooded,

:11:37.:11:40.

nor should we allow our country to be flooded. It is not just with

:11:41.:11:45.

these floods now. I've been on about this for many years. In Somerset we

:11:46.:11:50.

suffer floods a lot of the time by its very nature. You've got to

:11:51.:11:53.

accept that some areas will flood. This flood that happened now,

:11:54.:11:58.

probably if you get a month's rain in a day, you are going to have

:11:59.:12:02.

problems. But we still have to face up to this. These are one in 100

:12:03.:12:07.

events, but these are happening every five years. If you are on a

:12:08.:12:13.

trajectory that's going up, it is obviously going to happen more than

:12:14.:12:17.

once every 100 years. Run that figure by me again. For every ?1 you

:12:18.:12:23.

invest there are ?4 of benefit? Yes. Are there schemes that we are not

:12:24.:12:29.

doing, not taking up, where that kind of benefit to cost ratio

:12:30.:12:36.

exists? Yes, we need more money. So hang on. Before you move on, how do

:12:37.:12:42.

we justify to ourselves that there are schemes where we honey believe

:12:43.:12:49.

for ?1 we spent we get ?4 of benefit and we say, can't be bothered to do

:12:50.:12:54.

it? We'll have the Permanent Secretary of Defra in front of us in

:12:55.:12:58.

January, along with the Secretary of State. That's precisely the

:12:59.:13:03.

questions we'll be asking. And he will say incidentally. She will say.

:13:04.:13:11.

Sorry. She'll say that they don't have the money. The Chancellor will

:13:12.:13:17.

say for infrastructure, there's never been a better time to do it

:13:18.:13:20.

because interest rates are low. So therefore we have to look at flood

:13:21.:13:23.

and sea defence, because in the end we have to defend our country. You

:13:24.:13:28.

only have to spend the Netherlands, who spend a fortune on it, or they

:13:29.:13:33.

wouldn't have a country, we don't spend enough. We'll probably have to

:13:34.:13:37.

persuade the Chancellor, whether a Conservative or Labour Chancellor,

:13:38.:13:40.

but we've got to face up to the fact we need to spend more money. Some of

:13:41.:13:46.

the benefits come not just next year but in 50 years' time or possibly

:13:47.:13:51.

100ees' time. Do you think Government in this country is well

:13:52.:13:58.

tuned to thinking about the 50 to 100 years' time? We'll need to,

:13:59.:14:03.

because the insurance companies will need to reinsure these properties,

:14:04.:14:07.

so they've got to have some confidence. We have to make sure

:14:08.:14:12.

people can afford their premiums and don't have huge excesses. We are

:14:13.:14:16.

going to have to be much longer thinking on this issue. You have

:14:17.:14:25.

been very honest, one of the government's ideas is through the

:14:26.:14:28.

private sector, maybe localities, to put more money in themselves to

:14:29.:14:33.

their own flood defence. It frankly hasn't been working, has it? There

:14:34.:14:38.

has been some money coming in but not as much as we would like to see.

:14:39.:14:45.

If it is not going to come from the private sector, they will need to be

:14:46.:14:50.

more public sector support, but I think it is right to get the private

:14:51.:14:52.

sector to contribute, but we don't want that stopping schemes, we have

:14:53.:14:55.

to let them go forward. This evening Donald Trump has

:14:56.:15:07.

generated a great deal of interest. The first is that the latest polls

:15:08.:15:13.

show his lead solder fine -- solidifying in I/O outcome of the

:15:14.:15:17.

first state in next year but Mac primary season, at a rather

:15:18.:15:21.

unassailable looking 33%. The second is yet another round of very

:15:22.:15:25.

controversial comments on Muslims in the United States. Donald Trump is

:15:26.:15:30.

proposing a total ban on Muslims coming into America. He did so in

:15:31.:15:35.

this press release. It dropped into our inboxes an hour ago, many people

:15:36.:15:40.

thought it was a fake, a parody but it is for real. It says Donald Trump

:15:41.:15:46.

is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the

:15:47.:15:49.

United States and tell our country's representatives can figure out what

:15:50.:15:54.

is going on. Now, we have spoken to his spokespeople, they have been

:15:55.:15:59.

saying that this man would -- this ban would apply to tourist train to

:16:00.:16:02.

come into America and also Muslim immigrants seeking entry as well.

:16:03.:16:07.

Quite how they would find out the fate of people entering America is,

:16:08.:16:12.

they are not sure on that detail, and not sure if it would apply to

:16:13.:16:16.

American Muslims who leave the country and want to come back but it

:16:17.:16:20.

has been fiercely condemned by the White House less than 24 hours after

:16:21.:16:27.

President Obama made a plea for racial tolerance. Saying this is

:16:28.:16:33.

contrary to American values, and it has been said by Jeb Bush to be

:16:34.:16:45.

unhinged. Donald Trump has been saying so much in this campaign,

:16:46.:16:50.

trashed a war hero, made sexist remarks about a journalist, imitated

:16:51.:16:55.

a person with a disability. One wonders what else the guy is going

:16:56.:16:58.

to do to court controversy. Will this make a difference, is this the

:16:59.:17:02.

one where people will say we're not going to vote for the guy now, or

:17:03.:17:05.

will it carry on adding to his own momentum? We have been asking that

:17:06.:17:12.

question ever since he started insulting people and is not must

:17:13.:17:16.

have gone up. What has propelled his candidacy, not just the celeb take

:17:17.:17:20.

his money, his hardline stance on immigration. It was set out in that

:17:21.:17:25.

very first press conference in Trump Tower when he called Mexican

:17:26.:17:30.

immigrants rate this and criminals and vowed to build a wall between

:17:31.:17:34.

Mexico and America. Recently he called for a registry of American

:17:35.:17:38.

Muslims, yet every time he has made what many people would think of as

:17:39.:17:43.

racist comments, his poll numbers have gone up. I should add there has

:17:44.:17:47.

been a very strong condemnation from Muslim groups in America this

:17:48.:17:52.

evening. One group has said we are now entering the realm of the

:17:53.:17:55.

fascist. Whether this disqualified him from the presidency, who knows?

:17:56.:17:59.

Every time he had said something outrageous in the past, as I have

:18:00.:18:03.

said, his poll numbers have tended to go up.

:18:04.:18:06.

We learned today that sometimes government happens more slowly

:18:07.:18:09.

The final decision on a third runway at Heathrow was kicked into this

:18:10.:18:13.

parliament from the last one, and then when we got the verdict of

:18:14.:18:16.

the Davies commission, was kicked into December from the summer.

:18:17.:18:18.

And guess what - today we learned that it has now reportedly been

:18:19.:18:21.

But laugh as we might at the endless obfuscation, that is not the only

:18:22.:18:26.

Hopes of wrapping it all up for Christmas have gone.

:18:27.:18:32.

The President of the EU Council, Donald Tusk,

:18:33.:18:34.

What did we learn today? He gave us this new goal of February, he said

:18:35.:18:48.

he wants it done and dusted by then. He suggested that dithering so far

:18:49.:18:53.

over Britain's renegotiation had caused instability across Europe.

:18:54.:18:56.

There will be some relief for British Conservatives. They were

:18:57.:19:01.

worried it would be a never-ending referendum. They would go on and on.

:19:02.:19:09.

Now you could have a deal in February and conceivably have the

:19:10.:19:12.

referendum done by mid-to-late June. It is really tough. It would require

:19:13.:19:16.

everything to fall into place like clockwork but is still slightly

:19:17.:19:22.

possible. If it is going to be February, the agreement, it requires

:19:23.:19:27.

a lot of work to be done. The actual exercise Donald Tusk has done is he

:19:28.:19:30.

has gone round the other a youth member state and says what do you

:19:31.:19:33.

reckon about what Britain is asking for? A massive fact-finding mission,

:19:34.:19:40.

and he has found, what a surprise, the problem is the tax credits

:19:41.:19:44.

issue. David Cameron, they would like to say the new migrants coming

:19:45.:19:47.

to Britain in the future, you would have to wait four years before you

:19:48.:19:50.

could get in work benefits. We have reported that Jeremy Hayward has

:19:51.:19:55.

told the Prime Minister you are not going to get that, it would be

:19:56.:19:59.

illegal, you might get six months. Task is coming back essentially

:20:00.:20:03.

saying what we sort of knew already, just at a more formal level, that it

:20:04.:20:07.

is looking pretty tricky. David Cameron has some good news in that

:20:08.:20:10.

the Tories really don't want this to dominate the next parliament, but

:20:11.:20:14.

equally there is no way, no clear way through on tax credits yet.

:20:15.:20:18.

It's an idea that's been around for decades, but few countries have

:20:19.:20:21.

been brave enough - or perhaps stupid enough - to adopt it.

:20:22.:20:24.

The idea is to scrap welfare as we know it, and instead to offer every

:20:25.:20:27.

So step forward Finland, because the Prime Minister there

:20:28.:20:31.

Everybody would be given 800 euros a month - ?600 or so to keep.

:20:32.:20:43.

It has enormous appeal, but does it work?

:20:44.:20:46.

We'll hear from a proponent in a moment,

:20:47.:20:49.

Should we replace the existing system of pensions, child payments,

:20:50.:20:55.

disability allowances, housing support and all the rest with what

:20:56.:20:57.

A simple flat tax-free payment to all adults that

:20:58.:21:03.

That notion may now be taking a step away from the seminar room

:21:04.:21:10.

and towards reality, with moves in Finland to start trials of the idea.

:21:11.:21:16.

The body that administers social security there has commissioned

:21:17.:21:18.

a new study, and the policy has support, according to

:21:19.:21:21.

But then who wouldn't like a tax free payment every month

:21:22.:21:28.

The Finnish proposal is to abolish existing benefits and replace them

:21:29.:21:33.

with a monthly payment of 800 euros to every adult.

:21:34.:21:38.

Paying every adult that would cost about 46 billion euros a year,

:21:39.:21:41.

about in line with current Finnish benefit spending.

:21:42.:21:44.

Counterintuitive as it might sound, the aim is to reduce unemployment.

:21:45.:21:49.

In theory, paying people a flat rate of cash regardless of whether they

:21:50.:21:52.

work or not should make it easier for people to move into work.

:21:53.:21:57.

They won't lose benefit as they earn more, reducing disincentives.

:21:58.:22:01.

Well, there are several, and some of them are pretty big.

:22:02.:22:08.

Any move towards a basic income would create lots of winners,

:22:09.:22:11.

amongst people who don't get much cash from the state at the moment.

:22:12.:22:14.

Basically people in decent paying work without children.

:22:15.:22:22.

But it what create serious losers too.

:22:23.:22:23.

Disabled people, for example, who often get larger payments from

:22:24.:22:26.

the social security system to help them cope with their conditions.

:22:27.:22:28.

People with children, especially those with larger families

:22:29.:22:30.

on lower income tax, who would lose out on child benefit payments.

:22:31.:22:33.

And people who currently get support with housing costs

:22:34.:22:35.

Of course, you could try and add in circumstances-specific top-up

:22:36.:22:41.

payments, but then you would be undermining the simplicity of the

:22:42.:22:47.

A basic income which doesn't cut the payments to the most vulnerable

:22:48.:22:54.

be more expensive than the current system and implies higher taxes.

:22:55.:22:57.

And that's the issue Finland will now have to face.

:22:58.:23:03.

Joining me to talk about basic incomes, Newell Lawson, chair of the

:23:04.:23:12.

left of centre campaigning group, Compass. He is an advocate of doing

:23:13.:23:17.

this in Britain. It is a live debate as you are concerned, you are doing

:23:18.:23:23.

a seminar on it tomorrow. Very live. What do you like about this scheme?

:23:24.:23:29.

Our Social Security system is broken, it was invented in 1945 and

:23:30.:23:35.

the world has moved on from working in factories. A new world is

:23:36.:23:38.

coming, where technology will displace lots of jobs actually, and

:23:39.:23:42.

there will be huge productivity gain from that. Unless we want food

:23:43.:23:46.

riots, we are going to have to find a way of paying people to spend

:23:47.:23:52.

money in the supermarkets. All the evidence suggests that people don't

:23:53.:23:55.

do nothing, actually what they do is they work, they become more

:23:56.:23:59.

entrepreneurial, they volunteer, they care for people, they do a

:24:00.:24:02.

whole load of things. Our social security system is built on

:24:03.:24:08.

believing the worst in people, and what a citizen's income does is it

:24:09.:24:13.

gives them the belief of the best in people. That is what it is about.

:24:14.:24:19.

Let's go through the basic problem with the basic income scheme, what

:24:20.:24:23.

Duncan mentioned, if it isn't very generous, basically it is not very

:24:24.:24:28.

nice to people who are in hardship, who can't but by going out to work

:24:29.:24:33.

for example. We are modelling this at the moment, and actually if you

:24:34.:24:37.

swapped to some kind of citizen's income in the UK where every adult

:24:38.:24:42.

was given ?75 and you kept housing benefit and child benefit, one or

:24:43.:24:46.

two other benefits, as a kind of way into it to begin to introduce it,

:24:47.:24:53.

now then, if we are right... ?75 a week? Gas, which is enough, it is

:24:54.:24:58.

not perfect, not as much as the Finns are doing it, and the Finns

:24:59.:25:03.

are doing it, why can't we? It begins to introduce the system and

:25:04.:25:07.

it puts a floor under people. If there are going to be huge

:25:08.:25:11.

productivity gains from new technology, the question is who

:25:12.:25:15.

gains from that? Does it just go to the tech companies or can we

:25:16.:25:18.

redistributed through a citizens income? ?75 which doesn't sound like

:25:19.:25:24.

a good enough wage. I wouldn't have thought somebody from the left would

:25:25.:25:27.

think that. As soon as you start topping it up with a disability

:25:28.:25:32.

premium, child benefit already in there, which I believe Finland isn't

:25:33.:25:36.

proposing to do, then you have made it all complicated, you have just

:25:37.:25:41.

reinvented universal credit with a lower withdrawal. You are treating

:25:42.:25:44.

everyone as a citizen and giving them worth, giving them some kind of

:25:45.:25:50.

floor under their feet. When you start giving people 70 something

:25:51.:25:55.

pounds a week, the unemployed move into employment, those who are

:25:56.:25:59.

taking very poorly paid jobs, refuse poorly paid jobs and go the better

:26:00.:26:04.

paid jobs. So it helps all round. You get rid of the competitive

:26:05.:26:07.

benefit system, the humiliation of means testing. You have got rid of

:26:08.:26:13.

means testing and the humiliation, but in order to give me ?75 a week,

:26:14.:26:17.

you have got to put up everybody's tax rate in order to find all those

:26:18.:26:24.

?75. So you have given everyone a lump sum all week but the basic

:26:25.:26:28.

income tax rate has to go up very substantially. No it doesn't, it can

:26:29.:26:33.

go up a bit. But look, every time we introduce something radically

:26:34.:26:37.

different and transformative, the NHS, the minimum wage, the Social

:26:38.:26:40.

Security system itself originally, everyone says it is not possible,

:26:41.:26:47.

right? It is possible, it is just whether it is attractive. Finland

:26:48.:26:51.

are showing it is possible and if this technology thing is happening,

:26:52.:26:53.

and if jobs are going to be displaced, then we have to find a

:26:54.:26:57.

way to pay people. There is no way out of this. It is why people on the

:26:58.:27:02.

left are supporting it, like me, but why people across the political

:27:03.:27:06.

spectrum from the RSA to the Adam Smith Institute all sorts of

:27:07.:27:09.

economists, and more than anything technologists, arriving at

:27:10.:27:14.

citizen's income is the policy issue of the 21st century. If Finland, who

:27:15.:27:18.

are considering it now, if they look at it, back away and say this isn't

:27:19.:27:23.

going to work, will it change mine? Everywhere it has happened, been

:27:24.:27:26.

tried, it has moved people into being productive and has helped

:27:27.:27:29.

people reach their potential and fulfil their potential. If it can do

:27:30.:27:34.

that, then it is a policy we ought to be looking at.

:27:35.:27:37.

The sports glitterati will gather at the SSE Arena in Belfast

:27:38.:27:42.

for the BBC Sports Personality of the Year event.

:27:43.:27:45.

They'll drag the show out for more than two hours, but the clue

:27:46.:27:48.

as to the bit you're meant to relish is in the title - the crowning of

:27:49.:27:52.

One winner out of twelve shortlisted contenders.

:27:53.:27:57.

But, this year, there is a petition against one name on that shortlist:

:27:58.:28:00.

boxer Tyson Fury, world heavyweight champion.

:28:01.:28:02.

His remarks likening homosexuality to paedophilia, and suggesting that

:28:03.:28:04.

the legalisation of homosexuality is a sign of the apocalypse have upset

:28:05.:28:07.

many, as have comments about fellow shortlistee, Jessica Ennis, who, he

:28:08.:28:11.

said "slaps up good" and "looks quite fit".

:28:12.:28:19.

Now, do his comments make him unsuitable as a winner?

:28:20.:28:22.

Or should those taking offence simply look

:28:23.:28:24.

I'm joined by the boxing promoter, Kellie Maloney, and the

:28:25.:28:29.

Good evening to you both. Good evening. Kellie, knowing what Tyson

:28:30.:28:46.

Fury has said, when you saw him box Klitschko, who were you rooting for?

:28:47.:28:49.

Obviously Tyson Fury, because he's British. It was one of the dull test

:28:50.:28:55.

heavyweight fights I have ever watched, but his achievement was

:28:56.:28:58.

unbelievable. He went into the lion's den against all odds. No-one

:28:59.:29:02.

picked him to win, including myself. And he came away with the title, so

:29:03.:29:06.

his sporting achievement is unbelievable. But? His comments

:29:07.:29:12.

leave a lot to be desired. I didn't really know about the comment until

:29:13.:29:15.

this morning people phoned me. At first I thought he should be taken

:29:16.:29:20.

off the list. But the more I've listened to it today, even to Tyson

:29:21.:29:24.

himself speaking, I think he should be left on the list and the British

:29:25.:29:29.

public should make that decision. Right, so has he ever said anything

:29:30.:29:34.

about transagendaered boxing promoters? No, but he said a lot of

:29:35.:29:40.

things about Frank Maloney. He's been up before the board of control

:29:41.:29:46.

before and has been fined for derogatory remarks against boxers

:29:47.:29:51.

and their families and women before. It is not the first time Tyson has

:29:52.:29:57.

let steam off. Do you think sports people owe a duty to be a role

:29:58.:30:05.

model, upholding civic values and not making subtling remarks or

:30:06.:30:10.

should they say what they think and be done with it Of course it would

:30:11.:30:14.

be nice to think that all sports people should be role models, but

:30:15.:30:19.

that's an unrealistic expectation to put on people. Sports people come

:30:20.:30:24.

from all walks of life. To me it is like saying everyone in society

:30:25.:30:28.

should be a role model and act in a certain way. We have different types

:30:29.:30:32.

of people from different social, economic, academic backgrounds. Not

:30:33.:30:37.

everyone is going to be able to uphold and put their best foot

:30:38.:30:40.

forward. It is the same for sports people. Of course it would be nice

:30:41.:30:47.

but unrealistic. With expectation there is's disappointment and that's

:30:48.:30:50.

what happens. Let's talk about specific cases. Glenn Hoddle, an

:30:51.:30:56.

English football manager, made remarks about karma and people with

:30:57.:30:59.

disabilitiesment basically he lost his job as a result. Do you think

:31:00.:31:03.

that was the right thing, Kellie? Not really. He should be judged on

:31:04.:31:09.

what he does for sport. It seems there's some rules for certain

:31:10.:31:14.

people in sports and some rules for others. If he had been winning he

:31:15.:31:25.

would have... Kept his job. For me, and this is a little controversial,

:31:26.:31:29.

I feel the media also have a responsibility. If you think about

:31:30.:31:36.

it, the media love to give column inches and TV time to controversial

:31:37.:31:41.

figures in sport. They love the give all that attention. So we entice the

:31:42.:31:50.

comments? Exactly. We talk about, the media talk about people should

:31:51.:31:55.

be role models, but think about it. If you gave them limelight and

:31:56.:31:59.

glorified the great sports people in society that are doing the great

:32:00.:32:04.

work, being great role models and stopped giving it to the

:32:05.:32:08.

controversial, maybe it would inspire the controversial ones to be

:32:09.:32:15.

better role models. Supposing he said something about black athletes,

:32:16.:32:20.

would it change your view on this? Would you be more angry than you are

:32:21.:32:25.

exhibiting at the moment? A lot of the time he's speaking about his way

:32:26.:32:29.

of life. His community, how they are. Of course it is not we as a

:32:30.:32:34.

whole society think, but at the same time it is what they do and they are

:32:35.:32:39.

happy with it. But if they were happy with racist views, for

:32:40.:32:43.

example, would you it is OK for him to be on a personality sports list?

:32:44.:32:50.

It is not a winner's roster. But the public do decide, so the public make

:32:51.:32:54.

that decision. If the public, I think he's, I think his remarks are

:32:55.:32:56.

wrong and they are very very think he's, I think his remarks are

:32:57.:33:05.

wrong and they are very a certain section of society. But he's a human

:33:06.:33:10.

being, you have to understand where he is coming from. He is from a

:33:11.:33:15.

closed community. Trained by his uncle. They don't have any

:33:16.:33:20.

outsiders, they live in their own world. And we are talking about

:33:21.:33:24.

sports personality of the year. Certain things, with what he said,

:33:25.:33:28.

there's two different things we are talking about here. Sports

:33:29.:33:32.

Personality of the Year, what are the the criteria? If they are about

:33:33.:33:36.

your sporting prowess and what every achieved in your sporting field,

:33:37.:33:40.

that's one thing, which I think it is. If some of the criteria are that

:33:41.:33:45.

you have to be a role model and you can't do this and this... You

:33:46.:33:49.

wouldn't have him there? Absolutely not, because it is not in the rules.

:33:50.:33:55.

Maybe the BBC needs to change the rules and then he can't be in, but

:33:56.:34:01.

for now let him in and allow people to vote. You think he should be in?

:34:02.:34:07.

I do now, for what he has achieved in sport. Who would you vote for?

:34:08.:34:17.

Jessica Ennis hill? I think Andy Murray for the Davis Cup. I think

:34:18.:34:22.

Jessica Ennis, obviously. Thank you both.

:34:23.:34:26.

Ten years ago, we could have done a piece on how coffee shops are

:34:27.:34:29.

If we had, some of us would have said the growth of Starbucks

:34:30.:34:34.

We would have made puns about there being too much froth

:34:35.:34:37.

Coffee bars have continued to proliferate.

:34:38.:34:41.

It's a lesson that sometimes you can extrapolate an unsustainable

:34:42.:34:44.

So what is the success of coffee telling us?

:34:45.:34:48.

At home the British may still be a nation of tea drinkers, but on the

:34:49.:34:58.

Coffee shops, branded and independent, are spreading.

:34:59.:35:04.

The idea of spending ?2, ?3 or even more pounds on a cup

:35:05.:35:08.

of coffee no longer seems entirely alien to everyone.

:35:09.:35:10.

Some have even spoken about a flat white economy.

:35:11.:35:15.

If I'm honest I don't know what a flat white is

:35:16.:35:18.

and I'm quite suspicious of the kind of people that order them.

:35:19.:35:22.

But what I do know is that one of the fastest growing bits

:35:23.:35:25.

Despite severe recession, despite a big squeeze

:35:26.:35:29.

in household incomes, if you go back six years, about one in nine

:35:30.:35:38.

Last year though, it was one in five.

:35:39.:35:42.

In the last decade-and-a-half, the number of coffee outlets on

:35:43.:35:44.

In the noughties that was driven by the growth of the brand of chains,

:35:45.:35:49.

like Starbucks and Costa, but more recently there's been a pick-up

:35:50.:35:52.

And the market has been entered by non-specialists.

:35:53.:35:56.

Notably Gregg's the bakers and pub chain Wetherspoons.

:35:57.:36:02.

We began our research 18 years ago and we were told the market was

:36:03.:36:05.

already saturated then, there were enough coffee shops.

:36:06.:36:07.

Today we are looking at over 22,000 coffee shops,

:36:08.:36:09.

We think the market still has perhaps even double to go.

:36:10.:36:17.

The rise of out of town supermarkets and internet shopping has impacted

:36:18.:36:21.

on the high street, freeing up retail space and lowering rents.

:36:22.:36:26.

That's giving major opportunities for quality coffee shops,

:36:27.:36:30.

branded or nice quality independents to move in at affordable rents

:36:31.:36:38.

People flock to coffee shops to socialise and,ing inially, to work.

:36:39.:36:47.

People flock to coffee shops to socialise and to work.

:36:48.:36:50.

And it is a meeting place of I guess people that

:36:51.:36:56.

We have a lot of people that come in here and buy one coffee and sit

:36:57.:37:01.

Combining the leisurely graces of 17th century England with

:37:02.:37:04.

the colour, art and imagination of modern taste,

:37:05.:37:06.

coffee houses like this one in Kensington are having a new...

:37:07.:37:09.

The last decade wasn't Britain's first coffee shop boom.

:37:10.:37:11.

Tastes change over time and the 1960s saw something similar,

:37:12.:37:14.

But the first real coffee boom was 300 years before.

:37:15.:37:23.

On the left we have something very exciting, a rather fetching blue

:37:24.:37:26.

plaque marking the site of London's first coffee house, opened in 1562,

:37:27.:37:35.

plaque marking the site of London's first coffee house, opened in 1652,

:37:36.:37:39.

and within a couple of weeks Londoners were flocking here in

:37:40.:37:42.

their hundreds to try out the bitter Mohammedan gruel,

:37:43.:37:44.

a 17th century term for coffee, but I'm surprised no hipster coffee

:37:45.:37:47.

Commerce was intrinsic to the coffee house experience.

:37:48.:37:51.

Some of the institutions in the City, like the insurance

:37:52.:37:53.

industry at Lloyds, and the stock markets, they all grew out of these

:37:54.:38:03.

smoky candlelit coffee houses.

:38:04.:38:04.

Until the arrival of coffee, most people were either slightly or

:38:05.:38:07.

very drunk all day long, because you couldn't drink the river

:38:08.:38:10.

So the arrival of coffee triggers the dawn of sobriety that lays the

:38:11.:38:14.

foundation for spectacular economic growth in the decades that followed,

:38:15.:38:17.

partly because people are thinking clearly for the first time.

:38:18.:38:19.

Of course, 17th century coffee was very different.

:38:20.:38:21.

Matthew Green still prepares it in the same way

:38:22.:38:23.

It was routinely compared to oil, ink, soot, mud,

:38:24.:38:28.

Coffee's relationship to the wider economy continues today.

:38:29.:38:47.

Some people are using coffee shops as indicators of gentrification

:38:48.:38:49.

I looked at coffee shops in an area and the number of chicken

:38:50.:38:56.

My theory was if you find a place that has a high density

:38:57.:39:01.

of coffee shops and low density of chicken shops and low house prices,

:39:02.:39:04.

The presence of coffee shops might tell us if coffee prices in

:39:05.:39:09.

But coffee doesn't tell us much about the state of the wider

:39:10.:39:14.

economy, because this is a market that seems to keep on growing

:39:15.:39:17.

The reason is because it is a narcotic and once we've started we

:39:18.:39:31.

need evermore to keep us going. Before we go, we thought we should

:39:32.:39:34.

mark the occasion of David Cameron's 10th anniversary as leader

:39:35.:39:37.

of the Conservative Party. In that decade he left his daughter

:39:38.:39:45.

in a pub and won a couple of elections. So here are some

:39:46.:39:49.

of his highlights and low points. I want to talk about the future. He

:39:50.:40:03.

was the future once. There is such a thing as society. It's just not the

:40:04.:40:08.

same thing as the state. It is now formally a hung Parliament. I want

:40:09.:40:13.

to make a big, open and comprehensive offer to the Liberal

:40:14.:40:14.

Democrats. Calm down, dear, calm down. Of

:40:15.:40:30.

course I would rather you supported West Ham. I'm a Villa fan.

:40:31.:40:36.

REPORTER: Do you choose West Ham or Villa? Sorry, I had, these things

:40:37.:40:43.

sometimes happen when you're on the stump. Together, together, together.

:40:44.:40:48.

Let's pull together. Let's come together. Let's work together.

:40:49.:40:55.

Together, together, together, together, and together. Too many

:40:56.:41:05.

twits might make a twit. Hello there. Sunny spells and scattered

:41:06.:41:11.

showers for Tuesday. We've got early

:41:12.:41:12.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS