Browse content similar to 05/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
The Prime Minister allows his Cabinet a free vote on Europe. | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
Is everyone now having a go at new politics? | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
There will be a clear government position, | :00:12. | :00:14. | |
but it will be open to individual ministers to take a different, | :00:15. | :00:17. | |
personal position, while remaining part of the government. | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
But only once he's finished negotiating with EU leaders. | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
Has Corbyn resisted the urge to purge? | :00:25. | :00:36. | |
And should you have the right not to put your gender on a form? | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
We speak to one who believes the system is antiquated | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
Is the trans movement the next civil rights frontier? | :00:46. | :01:00. | |
Perhaps this new politics thing really is catching. | :01:01. | :01:01. | |
Today, the Prime Minister bowed to pressure from his cabinet | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
colleagues and agreed to allow government ministers to campaign | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
to leave the European Union - in direct opposition | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
Mr Cameron wants to keep Britain within the EU and believes he can | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
provide a compelling case for it - if he succeeds in getting EU leaders | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
The opening up of the debate - which will in essence allow not just | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
back benchers but those he works alongside - | :01:22. | :01:41. | |
The Prime Minister hopes that will be by the middle of February. | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
As an unexpectedly victorious David Cameron bathed in the applause of | :01:45. | :01:59. | |
his new MPs and the warm sunshine last May there was one big headache | :02:00. | :02:07. | |
on the horizon. Take's nightmare is not that he loses this referendum, | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
although that would be pretty bad. Nor is it that he fails to negotiate | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
a deal with his European partners. The EU is after all pretty good at | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
creative ambiguity. No, his real nightmare is this EU referendum is | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
the rock on which the Conservative Party is dashed, wrecked from a | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
natural party of government into an incoherent squabbling rabble. It was | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
into chillier air that the Prime Minister stepped this afternoon on | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
his way to tell the commons that Ministers would be free to campaign | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
anyway they chose. It is in the nature of a referendum that it is | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
the people, not the politicians, who decide. As I indicated before | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
Christmas, there will be a clear Government position, but it will be | :02:53. | :02:53. | |
open to individual Ministers to take a different personal position while | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
remaining a different personal position while | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
previous Prime Minister made a different personal position while | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
the Europe referendum of a different personal position while | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
unique problem. This is a case where all parties are divided, and the | :03:13. | :03:22. | |
unique problem. This is a case where disaster. Labour cabinet colleagues | :03:23. | :03:22. | |
freed from collective -- to disaster. Labour cabinet colleagues | :03:23. | :03:32. | |
argument as nonsense. Part disaster. Labour cabinet colleagues | :03:33. | :03:34. | |
calculation then as now is that the losers will only accept the result | :03:35. | :03:36. | |
of the referendum if they deem losers will only accept the result | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
fight fair. I want to see a fair fight so that I can feel that | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
whatever the result it is an honest reflection of the British people's | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
views and then we can get on with the rest of the Government's agenda, | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
which is significant. There are lots of other things we need to be | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
getting on with as well as Europe. David Cameron has another | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
calculation. The largely Euro-sceptic Conservative Party | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
membership may well pick as his successor someone who has campaigned | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
to leave the EU. And he doesn't want tall the potential candidates to | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
have to resign from his Government to do so. But one veteran of past | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
Conservative Party euro battles thinks this is a mistake. A pity | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
he's been forced to make it. We need a strong, unified Government to | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
handle some very difficult problems we face in the wilder world and in | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
providing a proper recovery and the base for a modern economy. To have | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
people insisting on staying in office in that Government but free | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
to attack their own Government on key and fundamental policy is quite | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
difficult. It's most unfortunate that his rebels have | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
difficult. It's most unfortunate this situation. The Prime Minister | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
does appear to have changed his mind on this from a year ago. Would you | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
give Cabinet Ministers and other Conservatives who want to campaign | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
for an out, the freedom to do so in such a referendum? Well with, there | :05:00. | :05:01. | |
are conservative members of Parliament who want to leave the | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
European Union come what may. But if you are part of the Government you | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
are clearly part of the team that's aiming for the renegotiation... But | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
for one Conservative minded to vote to leave the EU, this is the only | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
sensible solution. I think it would've been very difficult to | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
create a kind of a temporary Government during the referendum | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
campaign. Having a Secretary of State for transport or defence | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
perhaps for only six months, I don't think that would have been | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
practical. So being able to continue the role of Government, the | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
continuity of people who are experienced and know what they are | :05:39. | :05:40. | |
doing I think is really important. David Cameron only promised this | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
referendum to try to prevent his party tearing itself apart | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
referendum to try to prevent his Europe. He has made a similar | :05:49. | :05:50. | |
judgment in allowing Ministers to campaign to leave the EU if they | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
want to. But keeping the inevitable public arguments in check will now | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
prove a significant test for his leadership. | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
A vote is ongoing in the Commons right now so our guest, | :06:06. | :06:07. | |
the leading Eurosceptic Liam Fox, will join us from College Green | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
in a moment - though sadly not in discussion with our studio guest | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
here, the Europhile former Conservative Home Secretary, | :06:14. | :06:15. | |
Thank you for coming in Ken Clarke. Presumably you see this as a sign of | :06:16. | :06:25. | |
confidence in the Prime Minister that he feels able to make this | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
decision? Well, he has got a difficult problem on his hands, how | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
to have a referendum without making divisions in the party worse. For | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
the remainder of this Parliament to tackle all the many terrible | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
problems the country is facing. I potentially think it is a great pity | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
that the rebels have threatened resignation and forced limb to make | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
this concession. So you think it's a sign of weakness then? Well, | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
probably he had no choice. Harold Wilson had no choice. He didn't want | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
his Ministers to go out and start campaigning with each other, and he | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
was never able to put the party together again. The party split | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
irrevocably in the years that followed. Does this strike you as | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
the end of what he has called collective responsibility? He is | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
obviously suspending collective responsibility for an unknown period | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
of time, some months by the sound of it. We are going to have a | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
Government in which probably two or three members are opening | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
criticising one of the most, the Government's most important, as | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
David said, clear recommendations to the public. And he he said no | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
campaigning until after the renegotiation. Yes, there's a long | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
lapse between that and the referendum result. Throughout that | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
time, presumably now great pressure will be put by Euro-sceptic | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
enthusiasts in the House of Commons on other Ministers to spend those | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
months disagreeing with the Government on the recommendation | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
about what is the best basis for our voice in the world. How we are going | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
to influence mainly events and... Do you think they'll break the ground | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
rules? No, he said, as far as I understand it, tell me if I | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
misunderstood it, but I was listening to him. I think he said | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
once he has concluded the negotiations then in the months or | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
two which will follow that... They can do it? They are quite free to | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
say they don't agree with the Government's policy when they are | :08:27. | :08:28. | |
serving as Ministers in the Government. And you think this puts | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
your own cause at a disadvantage? No, I just think it makes the | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
Government in a, you know, very difficult position. It will be very | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
difficult for other countries to understand why they are dealing with | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
Ministers who are openly campaigning against one of the Government's | :08:47. | :08:54. | |
important policy recommendations. Presumably the Minister in office | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
will continue with European meetings and policies with the Government, | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
when openly back home they are stating they'll recommend that the | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
country should leave. So you do think it would be detrimental to | :09:08. | :09:15. | |
those who want to stay in the EU then? You are going to interview | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
Liam Fox. We served in a cabinet together in a friendly way. All of | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
us have to make a compromise sometimes. A man isn't born who | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
agrees with everything his colleagues are doing. But if it is | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
outside your area you stay quiet on it and accept collective | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
responsibility. If it is a matter of principle you do what any Minister | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
would have done in the past, you resign and you forcefully put your | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
views from the backbenches. What do you think will be the long-term | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
fallout from this? If it is part of what's going be a growing problem in | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
the next few months of keeping the Government together. And having a | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
strong and united Government thereafter. Unfortunately for us the | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
Labour Party's in an even bigger mess on collective unity on the | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
other side of the House. It is not surprisingly a unique situation in | :10:12. | :10:13. | |
Parliament which I don't think anybody has seen before. The British | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
constitution has never coped with this before. Ken Clarke, thank you. | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
Let's put some of those points to Liam Fox, who joins us from College | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
Green. Is it going to be very difficult for David Cameron to keep | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
the party together? If this is, as Ken Clarke claims, the end of | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
collective responsibility? No, I think he has made the decision that | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
will make it easier to keep the party together in the longer term. | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
The referendum's going to last between the end of the negotiation | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
and the date of the referendum itself, about three months we reckon | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
from what the Prime Minister was saying today. After that the | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
Conservatives will have to govern up to 2020, another three-and-a-half | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
years. I think the choice facing the Prime Minister was either does he | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
give Ministers in that three-month period the chance to say what they | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
want, given that it is not a normal piece of political activity with | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
Government legislation. It's a vote that every individual will have | :11:08. | :11:09. | |
across the country. And those Ministers will have to be answerable | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
to their voters and to their constituency associations who want | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
to know what they have to say. How can you carry on with Government | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
business in Europe, as Ken Clarke has explained, when all those | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
European leaders will be knowing and hearing exactly what you are | :11:25. | :11:26. | |
thinking about Europe? Well, that's one of the things you have to do in | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
a democracy. They'll have to understand that's how we operate. | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
We've not had a referendum on this issue. Since 1975. No-one under 58 | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
in this country has ever had a say on the European issue - it's time we | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
had it. That will provide some hiccups temporarily in the way the | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
Government operates. The alternative for the Prime Minister to what he | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
did today is to say fine, you have the leave the Government, there is | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
then a reshuffle in that three months, and then the Prime Minister | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
has to consider the Government after that. That I think would have had a | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
greater impact upon the coherence of Government in the longer term. The | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
Prime Minister made the right decision. How many cabinet | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
colleagues do you think we are talking about here? Well, I think | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
most of the Westminster commentators would accept that maybe three might | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
have resigned. I think now they are going to be the allowed a greater | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
say we'll see a bigger number, maybe six or seven, perhaps more. We'll | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
see a large number in the parliamentary party, as we've seen | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
this week, including the new intake of MPs. The youngest ones, many of | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
them favour leaving too. And they are not rebels. This is a perfectly | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
legitimate view to have. We said in our manifesto we would have a | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
referendum so that every citizen in our country could have a say on | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
their future in Europe. Where they wanted written's destiny to be | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
determined. Ey wanted written's destiny to be | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
determined. -- Britain's destiny to be determined. Is it reasonable, is | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
there such a thing as a moderate level of campaigning on something | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
you feel so strongly about? Where I agree with Ken and the point I've | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
tried to make in recent weeks is we will have to govern together for the | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
second half of this decade. How difficult or how easy that will be | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
for us will be largely determined how well we treat one another in the | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
run-up to that referendum and how we conduct ourselves. I think that we | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
should recognise that we are allowed to have different views on this. It | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
is not Government versus rebels as it might have been in the Maastricht | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
debates in the material '90s. Everyone is free to have the view | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
they believe is in the national interest. If we do that and treat | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
one another with respect and understand that those are want to | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
stay are not traitors, those who want to leave aren't idiots. We have | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
to have a grown-up, respectful debate, and then it'll be easier to | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
come together afterwards. You believe a leader can have a | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
plurality of views in Cabinet? And presumably you think that's true for | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
Labour and Mr Corbyn as well then? I'm not sure I'm competent to | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
discuss the mess that's the Labour Party when we've got a reshuffle | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
that's against the Chilcot Inquiry to see which we get first. But we've | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
got to work out for our own party how we best govern. We've got a | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
majority in the House of Commons. That's our main responsibility. If | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
we have to have a three month hiatus where there's a relaxation of | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
cabinet responsibility in order for us to be the able to govern | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
effectively for the rest of the decade, that's a fair bargain. Liam | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
Fox and Ken Clarke, thank you both very much. | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
Meanwhile, to the opposition party as it wrestles | :14:29. | :14:30. | |
Think of a David Attenborough plant mating sequence that's been sped up. | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
Then imagine it's been slowed back down to real time. | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
Now you're working in the mindset of those who've been monitoring | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
the last 30 hours of the Labour Party reshuffle. | :14:41. | :14:42. | |
But so far we have one shadow culture secretary Michael Dugher, | :14:43. | :14:51. | |
And a bunch of rumours about a new entry onto the bench. | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
So has the Labour Leader resisted the Urge to Purge? | :14:57. | :14:58. | |
The New Statesman has been live blogging all the twists and we've | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
forcibly removed their political editor, George Eton, | :15:04. | :15:05. | |
from the staircase in that corridor of news so he can join us here. | :15:06. | :15:12. | |
What has the last 30 or so hours yielded for you? Trotsky spoke of | :15:13. | :15:20. | |
the idea of permanent yielded for you? Trotsky spoke of | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
this has been Jeremy Corbyn to act swiftly to | :15:24. | :15:32. | |
change the Shadow Foreign Secretary, remove Hilary Benn from that post | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
and get rid of Murray Eagle. That has not happened yet. Do we know now | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
that Hilary Benn is now safe in his post? Well Hilary Benn is to remain | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
Shadow Foreign Secretary against initial expectations but will have | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
to share some positions, he will not be able to oppose Jeremy Corbyn on | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
air strikes for example. So Foreign Secretary in name. Yes, no more free | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
votes on foreign policy. One fact we have today is Michael Dugher, a | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
vocal critic, he called his sacking today and end to new politics. | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
Michael Dugher was critical of Jeremy Corbyn during the leadership | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
campaign at shows to join the Shadow Cabinet. I think in the hope it | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
would be what Jeremy Corbyn called abroad church where you have people | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
with different views, different backgrounds, working together. | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
Jeremy Corbyn, his team now feel that led to a lack of coherence on | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
foreign policy and defence policy and they were keen for greater | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
unity. So you will not end up with what one person described to me as a | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
Shadow Cabinet of clones and zombies because Jeremy does not have the | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
numbers. Only around 14 MPs in the party voted for him so he cannot put | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
in ideological clones but he doesn't want greater discipline. It looked | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
as if Maria Eagle might have been a casualty at one stage possibly to | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
bury replaced by Maria Thornbury in defence. Is that one dead? The | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
latest was that Emily Thornbury was in top bashed in talks with Jeremy | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
Corbyn. I know she has been tipped to take a job in the Shadow Cabinet. | :17:26. | :17:33. | |
She is a Trident sceptic and Maria Eagle is a defender. But one Labour | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
MP said it would be extraordinary to have a Shadow Defence Secretary who | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
sneers at her own flag, a reference to the reason for the resignation of | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
Emily Thornbury from the Shadow Cabinet of Ed Miliband. Tony Blair | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
always made rapid reshuffles which were not necessarily at all | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
successful. They may be merit in taking time over this. But do you | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
had the sense that Jeremy Corbyn will emerge from this having done | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
what he wanted to do and being stronger for it? I think he will | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
have done some of what he wanted to do, to get Michael Dugher out, to | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
get in a new Shadow Defence Secretary. And if he does not have a | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
new Shadow Foreign Secretary he will have Hilary Benn under new rules, | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
essentially. I think he has lost goodwill with this reshuffle, Labour | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
MPs friendly are furious at the way this has prevented them from | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
attacking the Conservatives more effectively over the concession on | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
the EU by David Cameron, how it was to drag on over the Christmas break. | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
They feel they want to get back to the job of opposing the | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
Conservatives and in the moment they are in a position to do anything | :18:49. | :18:49. | |
but. The speed at which tensions | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
between Saudi and Iran have escalated are a reminder, perhaps, | :18:53. | :18:54. | |
that this is no new conflict. Saudi's decision to | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
behead the Shia Cleric - and hero - Nimr al-Nimr - | :18:58. | :18:59. | |
may mark a point of no return. But make no mistake - | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
the historic unease between these two states stretches back | :19:03. | :19:04. | |
millennia - pre Islam - to a time when each regarded | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
themselves as the central power What's changed this time, perhaps, | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
is the economics of the situation. Saudi - which made its fortune | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
on oil - is now feeling the pinch Whilst its expenditure | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
on defence has soared. How does this affect | :19:19. | :19:25. | |
what happens next? Our diplomatic editor, | :19:26. | :19:27. | |
Mark Urban, is on the case. There is religious schism, | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
there is power politics, and in Saudi Arabia's | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
confrontation with Iran, there is an increasingly vexed | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
economic dimension too. There is no doubt that the fiscal | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
challenge is enormous for Saudi They got used to living with an oil | :19:49. | :19:50. | |
price that was very high, at points in excess of $100 | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
a barrel, and now that price has Saudi Arabia's government expects | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
revenues of $137 billion But oil and gas make up | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
something like 80% of that. So with the continuing price slump, | :20:03. | :20:11. | |
Saudi will be eating Last year these fell from 732 | :20:12. | :20:13. | |
billion to 623 billion, leading the IMF to predict | :20:14. | :20:22. | |
the Saudis could run out of cash In the past two years they have been | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
running a huge deficit and this will continue for the next few years | :20:27. | :20:35. | |
if oil prices continue at this rate, I would expect they will be | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
in a very difficult financial With tension rising in the Gulf, | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
Iranian TV has been showing off The competition for regional | :20:43. | :20:53. | |
dominance now extends With Iran expected to boost oil | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
sales as a way of increasing We go back to the 1970s, | :20:59. | :21:06. | |
clearly Iran was one of the world's largest oil producers | :21:07. | :21:14. | |
and rivalled Saudi Arabia. Today Iran after many years | :21:15. | :21:16. | |
of sanctions has obviously fallen into a much lower position and lower | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
status in the global oil market. But we think that Iran | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
will try to regain status The more that Iran produces, | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
the more the market is flooded. The market share clearly, | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
the more market share Iran takes, the less market share | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
Saudi Arabia will have. So clearly there is | :21:38. | :21:39. | |
going to be rivalry. In a bid to avert crisis, | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
Saudi Arabia last month unveiled It envisages spending | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
$224 billion this year. That includes $61 billion subsidy | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
on fuel prices and $10 billion While the kingdom is now risking | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
unrest with cuts to subsidies, producing for example a 50% | :21:58. | :22:05. | |
hike in petrol prices, it's still increasing | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
its defence spending. It is due to go up by 27% over | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
the next five years to $62 There is an unacceptable level | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
of spending and an illogical If you look into for example | :22:20. | :22:27. | |
the budget, they introduced subsidies, but the spending | :22:28. | :22:35. | |
on defence has increased significantly, around 25% | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
compared to last year. And this is not counting any kind | :22:40. | :22:48. | |
of spending off balance sheets of the budget to go to countries, | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
poor countries, that Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia's decision | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
to intervene in Yemen and to subsidise its allies to do | :22:56. | :23:06. | |
the same has created financial risks Regional leadership, | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
they are discovering, One that Saudi Arabia may only be | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
able to afford by deep cuts Unless of course actual wars push | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
the oil price back up. How important is it | :23:25. | :23:35. | |
to ask someone's gender - and would you consider it | :23:36. | :23:37. | |
an invasion of privacy For most of us, it will | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
barely raise an eyebrow. But for increasingly vocal numbers, | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
it is a question that's both People who see their own gender | :23:47. | :23:48. | |
as fluid or not easily defined say they want to remove the gender | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
markers - for example from passports, university | :23:55. | :23:56. | |
applications and official forms. And it's something the UK government | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
could start to actively consider To some it may sound | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
positively Victorian. Applying to legally change gender | :24:05. | :24:15. | |
in the UK involves presenting formal medical evidence to a judicial body | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
called the Gender Recognition Panel. Applicants must first prove | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
they have been diagnosed with gender in their acquired gender for two | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
years and will do so for ever. Stripping that process back | :24:28. | :24:35. | |
to a simple declaration form is expected to be one | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
of the recommendations made For campaigners it is the end | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
of a dated and sometimes traumatic process and another sign of evolving | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
attitudes to transgender. Across the western world those | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
attitudes have been transformed Some have called it | :24:55. | :24:56. | |
the trans moment. Time Magazine has called it the next | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
civil rights frontier. Trans icons such as Caitlin Jenner, | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
formerly the Olympian Bruce Jenner, and Kellie Maloney, | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
the celebrity boxing promoter, have given transgender issues | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
new prominence in mainstream media. And stars like Ruby Rose have taught | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
today's generation to think more Facebook now offers more than 70 | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
options on gender identity, ranging from polygender | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
to inter-sex. But for all the progress, | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
the work is far from complete. Transgender people are still more | :25:32. | :25:33. | |
likely to be attacked or face discrimination or suffer mental | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
health problems or drug abuse. Some campaigners argue that proposed | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
changes in law do not go far enough Others simply wonder why in 2016 | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
it is still something CN Lester is a musician, | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
writer and trans rights activist. And Sarah Ditum is a Feminist | :25:52. | :26:00. | |
and writer for the New Statesman. Thank you for coming in. CN, how | :26:01. | :26:14. | |
would you describe yourself if faced with a form or application, what do | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
you write? For someone like me who is transgender and does not consider | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
themselves either male or female and goes through the world being traded | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
sometimes as a man and sometimes as a woman, it gets confusing but asked | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
to describe who I am. I want to tell the truth and if form simply has | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
male or female I cannot do that. Why are you sometimes described as a man | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
and sometimes as a woman? We have different ways of seeing sex and the | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
gender. If we look at the history of how we do gender and sex, we always | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
had creative ways of doing gender. We have people who transition from | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
one sex to another, people who live in a space between gender, people | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
who reject ideas of gender at all. You were born a woman. I was born | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
baby, is a big distinction. Because of the patriarchal system in Hong | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
Kong I do not even have female on my birth certificate, but while. Girl | :27:19. | :27:26. | |
is gender but male and female, they are different things. The nature of | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
transition and the reason it is traumatic is because physical sex is | :27:32. | :27:38. | |
a fact of biological reality. With which trans people have two | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
negotiate. This is one of my academic specialities, the idea of | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
sex as we know it emerged in the 19th century. We cannot talk about | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
sex without gender and the body. Coming back to the issue at hand, | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
the current legislation... You said the idea of male and female does not | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
exist in your mind? I say it is more complicated than what we were taught | :28:07. | :28:13. | |
at GCSE biology. None of us are biologists. It would be interesting | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
to talk about what is going on as opposed to these common | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
misunderstanding is that we have. It is immensely complicated in some | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
ways and in other ways enormously simple in that in day-to-day life | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
there are men and women who broadly are male and female, so sex classes | :28:30. | :28:37. | |
broadly map onto physical sex. Trans people are caught between these and | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
that is important and I hope the report will deal with that | :28:45. | :28:46. | |
constructively. But in everyday life the impression of women by men | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
follows the line of sex and is about the exploitation of women as sex | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
objects. And the argument of CN, do you think that ignores social | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
conditions M if we focus on complexities, which is a fascinating | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
and important, but small part of the argument, then we will start to | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
overlook the structural violence that is practised by men against | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
women. I would say again coming back to these proposals, which is why we | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
are on this programme, the enquiry has been interesting, fascinating to | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
see it unfold and fascinating to see someone like Maria Miller who went | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
into it not knowing much, realising how much this affects our general | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
way of being in society with each other. A poll last year found one | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
third of people in the UK would not describe themselves as totally male | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
or female. The number of trans people in society, 1% on current | :29:50. | :29:51. | |
figures and intersex people... If Maria Miller takes this into | :29:52. | :30:04. | |
legislation, what does it mean for male and female changing rooms, | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
public loos, how you count the number of men and women on a census? | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
This is hugely important. She says she wants to look at the wage gap | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
and the glass ceiling. If you don't have a way of monitoring men and | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
women as two separate classes, you can't study that. You are blurring | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
all the lines, all the social construct aren't you? I think what | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
we are saying, we don't have race on forms. The Government doesn't | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
mandate my race or religion on the form. But if you are not collecting | :30:36. | :30:42. | |
the data... If you will let me finish. Trans people are not | :30:43. | :30:51. | |
arguing... It is vital that we can monitor data against discrimination. | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
Would the data be that you start eroding that because you don't know | :30:56. | :31:05. | |
where the definitions lie? I am finding this amusing. It is all | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
hypotheticals. It is not hypothetical. We are talking about | :31:11. | :31:17. | |
classifying data that is private in some respects. With the individual | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
consent. If you can let me finish. It is a question of competing | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
rights. How do we protect the rights and safety of trans people. There's | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
a danger that we will look back and say, this revolution was happening | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
and you were on the wrong side. You didn't realise that this was a civil | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
rights movement in the way that race was or in the way that the gay | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
moment was and by not accepting what's happening before your eyes | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
you are missing the point. There are a lot of facets to what we talk | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
about as trans. We are not just talking about people who physically | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
transition and have genital reassignment surgery, but people who | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
identify as the opposite sex or anything along a spectrum and make | :32:09. | :32:15. | |
no physical or aesthetic changes but present that as their identity. How | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
do you present somebody who has a penis and commits violence and wants | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
to be admitted to female only spaces. In Kelly Maloney | :32:27. | :32:37. | |
pretransition life Kelly Maloney attacked his wife. Rose West is in a | :32:38. | :32:45. | |
prison and she attacked women... I'm so sorry, I wish we had longer for | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
this. Great of you to come in. The Thank you. | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
It is a year since the staff at Paris' satirical magazine, | :32:53. | :32:54. | |
Charlie Hebdo, were targeted by murderers. | :32:55. | :32:56. | |
This week, the magazine's new editor responded in customary style. | :32:57. | :32:59. | |
A provocative front cover - and the words - "We're not | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
going to let balaclava-clad scumbags ruin a lifetime's work." | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
Those attacks - as we now know - were not to be the last of 2015. | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
But the killings began what has now become seen as France's | :33:11. | :33:12. | |
Tomorrow night on BBC Two, filmmaker Dan Reed reveals | :33:13. | :33:21. | |
the untold story of the massacre - and of the first Islamic State | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
This edited excerpt from his film features previously unseen footage | :33:26. | :33:27. | |
and interviews with some of the hostages inside the grocery. | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
You may find some scenes distressing. | :33:31. | :40:10. | |
And you can see the full film - This World, Three Days of Terror: | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
The Charlie Hebdo Attacks, tomorrow on BBC Two at 9.00pm. | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
We leave you with President Barack Obama, who made an extraordinary | :40:20. | :40:26. | |
statement on gun control tonight, which speaks for itself. | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
Our inalienable right to life, and liberty and the pursuit | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
of happiness, those rights were stripped from college kids | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
in Blacksburg and Santa Barbara, and from high-schoolers | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
in Columbine, and from first graders in Newtown. | :40:40. | :40:54. | |
And from every family who never imagined | :40:55. | :41:05. | |
their loved one would be taken from our lives by a bullet | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
Every time I think about those kids it gets me mad. | :41:09. | :41:29. | |
And by the way, it happens on the street of Chicago | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
Unbelievably some parts of eastern Scotland have already had their | :41:33. | :41:50. | |
second wettest January on record and we are only five days in. Further | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
damp, dreary cold weather across the | :41:56. | :41:56. |