05/01/2016 Newsnight


05/01/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


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The Prime Minister allows his Cabinet a free vote on Europe.

:00:00.:00:07.

Is everyone now having a go at new politics?

:00:08.:00:11.

There will be a clear government position,

:00:12.:00:14.

but it will be open to individual ministers to take a different,

:00:15.:00:17.

personal position, while remaining part of the government.

:00:18.:00:20.

But only once he's finished negotiating with EU leaders.

:00:21.:00:24.

Has Corbyn resisted the urge to purge?

:00:25.:00:36.

And should you have the right not to put your gender on a form?

:00:37.:00:43.

We speak to one who believes the system is antiquated

:00:44.:00:45.

Is the trans movement the next civil rights frontier?

:00:46.:01:00.

Perhaps this new politics thing really is catching.

:01:01.:01:01.

Today, the Prime Minister bowed to pressure from his cabinet

:01:02.:01:04.

colleagues and agreed to allow government ministers to campaign

:01:05.:01:06.

to leave the European Union - in direct opposition

:01:07.:01:08.

Mr Cameron wants to keep Britain within the EU and believes he can

:01:09.:01:12.

provide a compelling case for it - if he succeeds in getting EU leaders

:01:13.:01:16.

The opening up of the debate - which will in essence allow not just

:01:17.:01:21.

back benchers but those he works alongside -

:01:22.:01:41.

The Prime Minister hopes that will be by the middle of February.

:01:42.:01:44.

As an unexpectedly victorious David Cameron bathed in the applause of

:01:45.:01:59.

his new MPs and the warm sunshine last May there was one big headache

:02:00.:02:07.

on the horizon. Take's nightmare is not that he loses this referendum,

:02:08.:02:11.

although that would be pretty bad. Nor is it that he fails to negotiate

:02:12.:02:16.

a deal with his European partners. The EU is after all pretty good at

:02:17.:02:23.

creative ambiguity. No, his real nightmare is this EU referendum is

:02:24.:02:26.

the rock on which the Conservative Party is dashed, wrecked from a

:02:27.:02:32.

natural party of government into an incoherent squabbling rabble. It was

:02:33.:02:36.

into chillier air that the Prime Minister stepped this afternoon on

:02:37.:02:40.

his way to tell the commons that Ministers would be free to campaign

:02:41.:02:44.

anyway they chose. It is in the nature of a referendum that it is

:02:45.:02:48.

the people, not the politicians, who decide. As I indicated before

:02:49.:02:52.

Christmas, there will be a clear Government position, but it will be

:02:53.:02:53.

open to individual Ministers to take a different personal position while

:02:54.:02:58.

remaining a different personal position while

:02:59.:03:02.

previous Prime Minister made a different personal position while

:03:03.:03:05.

the Europe referendum of a different personal position while

:03:06.:03:12.

unique problem. This is a case where all parties are divided, and the

:03:13.:03:22.

unique problem. This is a case where disaster. Labour cabinet colleagues

:03:23.:03:22.

freed from collective -- to disaster. Labour cabinet colleagues

:03:23.:03:32.

argument as nonsense. Part disaster. Labour cabinet colleagues

:03:33.:03:34.

calculation then as now is that the losers will only accept the result

:03:35.:03:36.

of the referendum if they deem losers will only accept the result

:03:37.:03:40.

fight fair. I want to see a fair fight so that I can feel that

:03:41.:03:44.

whatever the result it is an honest reflection of the British people's

:03:45.:03:47.

views and then we can get on with the rest of the Government's agenda,

:03:48.:03:50.

which is significant. There are lots of other things we need to be

:03:51.:03:54.

getting on with as well as Europe. David Cameron has another

:03:55.:03:58.

calculation. The largely Euro-sceptic Conservative Party

:03:59.:04:01.

membership may well pick as his successor someone who has campaigned

:04:02.:04:05.

to leave the EU. And he doesn't want tall the potential candidates to

:04:06.:04:10.

have to resign from his Government to do so. But one veteran of past

:04:11.:04:17.

Conservative Party euro battles thinks this is a mistake. A pity

:04:18.:04:22.

he's been forced to make it. We need a strong, unified Government to

:04:23.:04:25.

handle some very difficult problems we face in the wilder world and in

:04:26.:04:30.

providing a proper recovery and the base for a modern economy. To have

:04:31.:04:33.

people insisting on staying in office in that Government but free

:04:34.:04:39.

to attack their own Government on key and fundamental policy is quite

:04:40.:04:43.

difficult. It's most unfortunate that his rebels have

:04:44.:04:46.

difficult. It's most unfortunate this situation. The Prime Minister

:04:47.:04:50.

does appear to have changed his mind on this from a year ago. Would you

:04:51.:04:55.

give Cabinet Ministers and other Conservatives who want to campaign

:04:56.:04:59.

for an out, the freedom to do so in such a referendum? Well with, there

:05:00.:05:01.

are conservative members of Parliament who want to leave the

:05:02.:05:05.

European Union come what may. But if you are part of the Government you

:05:06.:05:09.

are clearly part of the team that's aiming for the renegotiation... But

:05:10.:05:14.

for one Conservative minded to vote to leave the EU, this is the only

:05:15.:05:19.

sensible solution. I think it would've been very difficult to

:05:20.:05:24.

create a kind of a temporary Government during the referendum

:05:25.:05:27.

campaign. Having a Secretary of State for transport or defence

:05:28.:05:30.

perhaps for only six months, I don't think that would have been

:05:31.:05:35.

practical. So being able to continue the role of Government, the

:05:36.:05:38.

continuity of people who are experienced and know what they are

:05:39.:05:40.

doing I think is really important. David Cameron only promised this

:05:41.:05:45.

referendum to try to prevent his party tearing itself apart

:05:46.:05:48.

referendum to try to prevent his Europe. He has made a similar

:05:49.:05:50.

judgment in allowing Ministers to campaign to leave the EU if they

:05:51.:05:55.

want to. But keeping the inevitable public arguments in check will now

:05:56.:05:59.

prove a significant test for his leadership.

:06:00.:06:05.

A vote is ongoing in the Commons right now so our guest,

:06:06.:06:07.

the leading Eurosceptic Liam Fox, will join us from College Green

:06:08.:06:10.

in a moment - though sadly not in discussion with our studio guest

:06:11.:06:13.

here, the Europhile former Conservative Home Secretary,

:06:14.:06:15.

Thank you for coming in Ken Clarke. Presumably you see this as a sign of

:06:16.:06:25.

confidence in the Prime Minister that he feels able to make this

:06:26.:06:29.

decision? Well, he has got a difficult problem on his hands, how

:06:30.:06:36.

to have a referendum without making divisions in the party worse. For

:06:37.:06:40.

the remainder of this Parliament to tackle all the many terrible

:06:41.:06:45.

problems the country is facing. I potentially think it is a great pity

:06:46.:06:50.

that the rebels have threatened resignation and forced limb to make

:06:51.:06:54.

this concession. So you think it's a sign of weakness then? Well,

:06:55.:06:58.

probably he had no choice. Harold Wilson had no choice. He didn't want

:06:59.:07:02.

his Ministers to go out and start campaigning with each other, and he

:07:03.:07:06.

was never able to put the party together again. The party split

:07:07.:07:10.

irrevocably in the years that followed. Does this strike you as

:07:11.:07:14.

the end of what he has called collective responsibility? He is

:07:15.:07:18.

obviously suspending collective responsibility for an unknown period

:07:19.:07:22.

of time, some months by the sound of it. We are going to have a

:07:23.:07:26.

Government in which probably two or three members are opening

:07:27.:07:30.

criticising one of the most, the Government's most important, as

:07:31.:07:33.

David said, clear recommendations to the public. And he he said no

:07:34.:07:38.

campaigning until after the renegotiation. Yes, there's a long

:07:39.:07:41.

lapse between that and the referendum result. Throughout that

:07:42.:07:48.

time, presumably now great pressure will be put by Euro-sceptic

:07:49.:07:51.

enthusiasts in the House of Commons on other Ministers to spend those

:07:52.:07:56.

months disagreeing with the Government on the recommendation

:07:57.:07:59.

about what is the best basis for our voice in the world. How we are going

:08:00.:08:04.

to influence mainly events and... Do you think they'll break the ground

:08:05.:08:09.

rules? No, he said, as far as I understand it, tell me if I

:08:10.:08:12.

misunderstood it, but I was listening to him. I think he said

:08:13.:08:16.

once he has concluded the negotiations then in the months or

:08:17.:08:20.

two which will follow that... They can do it? They are quite free to

:08:21.:08:26.

say they don't agree with the Government's policy when they are

:08:27.:08:28.

serving as Ministers in the Government. And you think this puts

:08:29.:08:34.

your own cause at a disadvantage? No, I just think it makes the

:08:35.:08:39.

Government in a, you know, very difficult position. It will be very

:08:40.:08:42.

difficult for other countries to understand why they are dealing with

:08:43.:08:46.

Ministers who are openly campaigning against one of the Government's

:08:47.:08:54.

important policy recommendations. Presumably the Minister in office

:08:55.:08:58.

will continue with European meetings and policies with the Government,

:08:59.:09:02.

when openly back home they are stating they'll recommend that the

:09:03.:09:07.

country should leave. So you do think it would be detrimental to

:09:08.:09:15.

those who want to stay in the EU then? You are going to interview

:09:16.:09:20.

Liam Fox. We served in a cabinet together in a friendly way. All of

:09:21.:09:26.

us have to make a compromise sometimes. A man isn't born who

:09:27.:09:30.

agrees with everything his colleagues are doing. But if it is

:09:31.:09:36.

outside your area you stay quiet on it and accept collective

:09:37.:09:39.

responsibility. If it is a matter of principle you do what any Minister

:09:40.:09:44.

would have done in the past, you resign and you forcefully put your

:09:45.:09:47.

views from the backbenches. What do you think will be the long-term

:09:48.:09:52.

fallout from this? If it is part of what's going be a growing problem in

:09:53.:09:56.

the next few months of keeping the Government together. And having a

:09:57.:10:00.

strong and united Government thereafter. Unfortunately for us the

:10:01.:10:05.

Labour Party's in an even bigger mess on collective unity on the

:10:06.:10:11.

other side of the House. It is not surprisingly a unique situation in

:10:12.:10:13.

Parliament which I don't think anybody has seen before. The British

:10:14.:10:17.

constitution has never coped with this before. Ken Clarke, thank you.

:10:18.:10:22.

Let's put some of those points to Liam Fox, who joins us from College

:10:23.:10:25.

Green. Is it going to be very difficult for David Cameron to keep

:10:26.:10:29.

the party together? If this is, as Ken Clarke claims, the end of

:10:30.:10:33.

collective responsibility? No, I think he has made the decision that

:10:34.:10:37.

will make it easier to keep the party together in the longer term.

:10:38.:10:41.

The referendum's going to last between the end of the negotiation

:10:42.:10:45.

and the date of the referendum itself, about three months we reckon

:10:46.:10:49.

from what the Prime Minister was saying today. After that the

:10:50.:10:53.

Conservatives will have to govern up to 2020, another three-and-a-half

:10:54.:10:56.

years. I think the choice facing the Prime Minister was either does he

:10:57.:10:59.

give Ministers in that three-month period the chance to say what they

:11:00.:11:03.

want, given that it is not a normal piece of political activity with

:11:04.:11:07.

Government legislation. It's a vote that every individual will have

:11:08.:11:09.

across the country. And those Ministers will have to be answerable

:11:10.:11:13.

to their voters and to their constituency associations who want

:11:14.:11:16.

to know what they have to say. How can you carry on with Government

:11:17.:11:20.

business in Europe, as Ken Clarke has explained, when all those

:11:21.:11:24.

European leaders will be knowing and hearing exactly what you are

:11:25.:11:26.

thinking about Europe? Well, that's one of the things you have to do in

:11:27.:11:29.

a democracy. They'll have to understand that's how we operate.

:11:30.:11:33.

We've not had a referendum on this issue. Since 1975. No-one under 58

:11:34.:11:38.

in this country has ever had a say on the European issue - it's time we

:11:39.:11:43.

had it. That will provide some hiccups temporarily in the way the

:11:44.:11:46.

Government operates. The alternative for the Prime Minister to what he

:11:47.:11:50.

did today is to say fine, you have the leave the Government, there is

:11:51.:11:53.

then a reshuffle in that three months, and then the Prime Minister

:11:54.:11:56.

has to consider the Government after that. That I think would have had a

:11:57.:12:00.

greater impact upon the coherence of Government in the longer term. The

:12:01.:12:04.

Prime Minister made the right decision. How many cabinet

:12:05.:12:07.

colleagues do you think we are talking about here? Well, I think

:12:08.:12:11.

most of the Westminster commentators would accept that maybe three might

:12:12.:12:14.

have resigned. I think now they are going to be the allowed a greater

:12:15.:12:18.

say we'll see a bigger number, maybe six or seven, perhaps more. We'll

:12:19.:12:22.

see a large number in the parliamentary party, as we've seen

:12:23.:12:25.

this week, including the new intake of MPs. The youngest ones, many of

:12:26.:12:30.

them favour leaving too. And they are not rebels. This is a perfectly

:12:31.:12:35.

legitimate view to have. We said in our manifesto we would have a

:12:36.:12:38.

referendum so that every citizen in our country could have a say on

:12:39.:12:43.

their future in Europe. Where they wanted written's destiny to be

:12:44.:12:46.

determined. Ey wanted written's destiny to be

:12:47.:12:49.

determined. -- Britain's destiny to be determined. Is it reasonable, is

:12:50.:12:54.

there such a thing as a moderate level of campaigning on something

:12:55.:12:57.

you feel so strongly about? Where I agree with Ken and the point I've

:12:58.:13:01.

tried to make in recent weeks is we will have to govern together for the

:13:02.:13:07.

second half of this decade. How difficult or how easy that will be

:13:08.:13:10.

for us will be largely determined how well we treat one another in the

:13:11.:13:14.

run-up to that referendum and how we conduct ourselves. I think that we

:13:15.:13:17.

should recognise that we are allowed to have different views on this. It

:13:18.:13:21.

is not Government versus rebels as it might have been in the Maastricht

:13:22.:13:24.

debates in the material '90s. Everyone is free to have the view

:13:25.:13:29.

they believe is in the national interest. If we do that and treat

:13:30.:13:33.

one another with respect and understand that those are want to

:13:34.:13:37.

stay are not traitors, those who want to leave aren't idiots. We have

:13:38.:13:41.

to have a grown-up, respectful debate, and then it'll be easier to

:13:42.:13:45.

come together afterwards. You believe a leader can have a

:13:46.:13:49.

plurality of views in Cabinet? And presumably you think that's true for

:13:50.:13:54.

Labour and Mr Corbyn as well then? I'm not sure I'm competent to

:13:55.:13:57.

discuss the mess that's the Labour Party when we've got a reshuffle

:13:58.:14:01.

that's against the Chilcot Inquiry to see which we get first. But we've

:14:02.:14:06.

got to work out for our own party how we best govern. We've got a

:14:07.:14:09.

majority in the House of Commons. That's our main responsibility. If

:14:10.:14:13.

we have to have a three month hiatus where there's a relaxation of

:14:14.:14:16.

cabinet responsibility in order for us to be the able to govern

:14:17.:14:19.

effectively for the rest of the decade, that's a fair bargain. Liam

:14:20.:14:23.

Fox and Ken Clarke, thank you both very much.

:14:24.:14:28.

Meanwhile, to the opposition party as it wrestles

:14:29.:14:30.

Think of a David Attenborough plant mating sequence that's been sped up.

:14:31.:14:34.

Then imagine it's been slowed back down to real time.

:14:35.:14:37.

Now you're working in the mindset of those who've been monitoring

:14:38.:14:40.

the last 30 hours of the Labour Party reshuffle.

:14:41.:14:42.

But so far we have one shadow culture secretary Michael Dugher,

:14:43.:14:51.

And a bunch of rumours about a new entry onto the bench.

:14:52.:14:56.

So has the Labour Leader resisted the Urge to Purge?

:14:57.:14:58.

The New Statesman has been live blogging all the twists and we've

:14:59.:15:03.

forcibly removed their political editor, George Eton,

:15:04.:15:05.

from the staircase in that corridor of news so he can join us here.

:15:06.:15:12.

What has the last 30 or so hours yielded for you? Trotsky spoke of

:15:13.:15:20.

the idea of permanent yielded for you? Trotsky spoke of

:15:21.:15:23.

this has been Jeremy Corbyn to act swiftly to

:15:24.:15:32.

change the Shadow Foreign Secretary, remove Hilary Benn from that post

:15:33.:15:39.

and get rid of Murray Eagle. That has not happened yet. Do we know now

:15:40.:15:44.

that Hilary Benn is now safe in his post? Well Hilary Benn is to remain

:15:45.:15:51.

Shadow Foreign Secretary against initial expectations but will have

:15:52.:15:57.

to share some positions, he will not be able to oppose Jeremy Corbyn on

:15:58.:16:04.

air strikes for example. So Foreign Secretary in name. Yes, no more free

:16:05.:16:10.

votes on foreign policy. One fact we have today is Michael Dugher, a

:16:11.:16:15.

vocal critic, he called his sacking today and end to new politics.

:16:16.:16:22.

Michael Dugher was critical of Jeremy Corbyn during the leadership

:16:23.:16:27.

campaign at shows to join the Shadow Cabinet. I think in the hope it

:16:28.:16:31.

would be what Jeremy Corbyn called abroad church where you have people

:16:32.:16:36.

with different views, different backgrounds, working together.

:16:37.:16:41.

Jeremy Corbyn, his team now feel that led to a lack of coherence on

:16:42.:16:46.

foreign policy and defence policy and they were keen for greater

:16:47.:16:50.

unity. So you will not end up with what one person described to me as a

:16:51.:16:55.

Shadow Cabinet of clones and zombies because Jeremy does not have the

:16:56.:17:00.

numbers. Only around 14 MPs in the party voted for him so he cannot put

:17:01.:17:05.

in ideological clones but he doesn't want greater discipline. It looked

:17:06.:17:10.

as if Maria Eagle might have been a casualty at one stage possibly to

:17:11.:17:15.

bury replaced by Maria Thornbury in defence. Is that one dead? The

:17:16.:17:21.

latest was that Emily Thornbury was in top bashed in talks with Jeremy

:17:22.:17:25.

Corbyn. I know she has been tipped to take a job in the Shadow Cabinet.

:17:26.:17:33.

She is a Trident sceptic and Maria Eagle is a defender. But one Labour

:17:34.:17:39.

MP said it would be extraordinary to have a Shadow Defence Secretary who

:17:40.:17:43.

sneers at her own flag, a reference to the reason for the resignation of

:17:44.:17:48.

Emily Thornbury from the Shadow Cabinet of Ed Miliband. Tony Blair

:17:49.:17:53.

always made rapid reshuffles which were not necessarily at all

:17:54.:17:58.

successful. They may be merit in taking time over this. But do you

:17:59.:18:02.

had the sense that Jeremy Corbyn will emerge from this having done

:18:03.:18:06.

what he wanted to do and being stronger for it? I think he will

:18:07.:18:11.

have done some of what he wanted to do, to get Michael Dugher out, to

:18:12.:18:16.

get in a new Shadow Defence Secretary. And if he does not have a

:18:17.:18:20.

new Shadow Foreign Secretary he will have Hilary Benn under new rules,

:18:21.:18:26.

essentially. I think he has lost goodwill with this reshuffle, Labour

:18:27.:18:30.

MPs friendly are furious at the way this has prevented them from

:18:31.:18:35.

attacking the Conservatives more effectively over the concession on

:18:36.:18:39.

the EU by David Cameron, how it was to drag on over the Christmas break.

:18:40.:18:45.

They feel they want to get back to the job of opposing the

:18:46.:18:48.

Conservatives and in the moment they are in a position to do anything

:18:49.:18:49.

but. The speed at which tensions

:18:50.:18:52.

between Saudi and Iran have escalated are a reminder, perhaps,

:18:53.:18:54.

that this is no new conflict. Saudi's decision to

:18:55.:18:57.

behead the Shia Cleric - and hero - Nimr al-Nimr -

:18:58.:18:59.

may mark a point of no return. But make no mistake -

:19:00.:19:02.

the historic unease between these two states stretches back

:19:03.:19:04.

millennia - pre Islam - to a time when each regarded

:19:05.:19:07.

themselves as the central power What's changed this time, perhaps,

:19:08.:19:10.

is the economics of the situation. Saudi - which made its fortune

:19:11.:19:15.

on oil - is now feeling the pinch Whilst its expenditure

:19:16.:19:18.

on defence has soared. How does this affect

:19:19.:19:25.

what happens next? Our diplomatic editor,

:19:26.:19:27.

Mark Urban, is on the case. There is religious schism,

:19:28.:19:31.

there is power politics, and in Saudi Arabia's

:19:32.:19:38.

confrontation with Iran, there is an increasingly vexed

:19:39.:19:42.

economic dimension too. There is no doubt that the fiscal

:19:43.:19:48.

challenge is enormous for Saudi They got used to living with an oil

:19:49.:19:50.

price that was very high, at points in excess of $100

:19:51.:19:55.

a barrel, and now that price has Saudi Arabia's government expects

:19:56.:19:58.

revenues of $137 billion But oil and gas make up

:19:59.:20:02.

something like 80% of that. So with the continuing price slump,

:20:03.:20:11.

Saudi will be eating Last year these fell from 732

:20:12.:20:13.

billion to 623 billion, leading the IMF to predict

:20:14.:20:22.

the Saudis could run out of cash In the past two years they have been

:20:23.:20:26.

running a huge deficit and this will continue for the next few years

:20:27.:20:35.

if oil prices continue at this rate, I would expect they will be

:20:36.:20:39.

in a very difficult financial With tension rising in the Gulf,

:20:40.:20:42.

Iranian TV has been showing off The competition for regional

:20:43.:20:53.

dominance now extends With Iran expected to boost oil

:20:54.:20:58.

sales as a way of increasing We go back to the 1970s,

:20:59.:21:06.

clearly Iran was one of the world's largest oil producers

:21:07.:21:14.

and rivalled Saudi Arabia. Today Iran after many years

:21:15.:21:16.

of sanctions has obviously fallen into a much lower position and lower

:21:17.:21:19.

status in the global oil market. But we think that Iran

:21:20.:21:23.

will try to regain status The more that Iran produces,

:21:24.:21:29.

the more the market is flooded. The market share clearly,

:21:30.:21:34.

the more market share Iran takes, the less market share

:21:35.:21:37.

Saudi Arabia will have. So clearly there is

:21:38.:21:39.

going to be rivalry. In a bid to avert crisis,

:21:40.:21:42.

Saudi Arabia last month unveiled It envisages spending

:21:43.:21:45.

$224 billion this year. That includes $61 billion subsidy

:21:46.:21:52.

on fuel prices and $10 billion While the kingdom is now risking

:21:53.:21:57.

unrest with cuts to subsidies, producing for example a 50%

:21:58.:22:05.

hike in petrol prices, it's still increasing

:22:06.:22:11.

its defence spending. It is due to go up by 27% over

:22:12.:22:14.

the next five years to $62 There is an unacceptable level

:22:15.:22:19.

of spending and an illogical If you look into for example

:22:20.:22:27.

the budget, they introduced subsidies, but the spending

:22:28.:22:35.

on defence has increased significantly, around 25%

:22:36.:22:39.

compared to last year. And this is not counting any kind

:22:40.:22:48.

of spending off balance sheets of the budget to go to countries,

:22:49.:22:51.

poor countries, that Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia's decision

:22:52.:22:55.

to intervene in Yemen and to subsidise its allies to do

:22:56.:23:06.

the same has created financial risks Regional leadership,

:23:07.:23:10.

they are discovering, One that Saudi Arabia may only be

:23:11.:23:17.

able to afford by deep cuts Unless of course actual wars push

:23:18.:23:24.

the oil price back up. How important is it

:23:25.:23:35.

to ask someone's gender - and would you consider it

:23:36.:23:37.

an invasion of privacy For most of us, it will

:23:38.:23:41.

barely raise an eyebrow. But for increasingly vocal numbers,

:23:42.:23:46.

it is a question that's both People who see their own gender

:23:47.:23:48.

as fluid or not easily defined say they want to remove the gender

:23:49.:23:54.

markers - for example from passports, university

:23:55.:23:56.

applications and official forms. And it's something the UK government

:23:57.:24:01.

could start to actively consider To some it may sound

:24:02.:24:04.

positively Victorian. Applying to legally change gender

:24:05.:24:15.

in the UK involves presenting formal medical evidence to a judicial body

:24:16.:24:19.

called the Gender Recognition Panel. Applicants must first prove

:24:20.:24:24.

they have been diagnosed with gender in their acquired gender for two

:24:25.:24:27.

years and will do so for ever. Stripping that process back

:24:28.:24:35.

to a simple declaration form is expected to be one

:24:36.:24:38.

of the recommendations made For campaigners it is the end

:24:39.:24:43.

of a dated and sometimes traumatic process and another sign of evolving

:24:44.:24:49.

attitudes to transgender. Across the western world those

:24:50.:24:54.

attitudes have been transformed Some have called it

:24:55.:24:56.

the trans moment. Time Magazine has called it the next

:24:57.:25:01.

civil rights frontier. Trans icons such as Caitlin Jenner,

:25:02.:25:05.

formerly the Olympian Bruce Jenner, and Kellie Maloney,

:25:06.:25:09.

the celebrity boxing promoter, have given transgender issues

:25:10.:25:12.

new prominence in mainstream media. And stars like Ruby Rose have taught

:25:13.:25:18.

today's generation to think more Facebook now offers more than 70

:25:19.:25:21.

options on gender identity, ranging from polygender

:25:22.:25:27.

to inter-sex. But for all the progress,

:25:28.:25:31.

the work is far from complete. Transgender people are still more

:25:32.:25:33.

likely to be attacked or face discrimination or suffer mental

:25:34.:25:36.

health problems or drug abuse. Some campaigners argue that proposed

:25:37.:25:41.

changes in law do not go far enough Others simply wonder why in 2016

:25:42.:25:45.

it is still something CN Lester is a musician,

:25:46.:25:51.

writer and trans rights activist. And Sarah Ditum is a Feminist

:25:52.:26:00.

and writer for the New Statesman. Thank you for coming in. CN, how

:26:01.:26:14.

would you describe yourself if faced with a form or application, what do

:26:15.:26:20.

you write? For someone like me who is transgender and does not consider

:26:21.:26:24.

themselves either male or female and goes through the world being traded

:26:25.:26:29.

sometimes as a man and sometimes as a woman, it gets confusing but asked

:26:30.:26:35.

to describe who I am. I want to tell the truth and if form simply has

:26:36.:26:41.

male or female I cannot do that. Why are you sometimes described as a man

:26:42.:26:47.

and sometimes as a woman? We have different ways of seeing sex and the

:26:48.:26:51.

gender. If we look at the history of how we do gender and sex, we always

:26:52.:26:57.

had creative ways of doing gender. We have people who transition from

:26:58.:27:01.

one sex to another, people who live in a space between gender, people

:27:02.:27:06.

who reject ideas of gender at all. You were born a woman. I was born

:27:07.:27:12.

baby, is a big distinction. Because of the patriarchal system in Hong

:27:13.:27:18.

Kong I do not even have female on my birth certificate, but while. Girl

:27:19.:27:26.

is gender but male and female, they are different things. The nature of

:27:27.:27:31.

transition and the reason it is traumatic is because physical sex is

:27:32.:27:38.

a fact of biological reality. With which trans people have two

:27:39.:27:43.

negotiate. This is one of my academic specialities, the idea of

:27:44.:27:48.

sex as we know it emerged in the 19th century. We cannot talk about

:27:49.:27:54.

sex without gender and the body. Coming back to the issue at hand,

:27:55.:28:00.

the current legislation... You said the idea of male and female does not

:28:01.:28:06.

exist in your mind? I say it is more complicated than what we were taught

:28:07.:28:13.

at GCSE biology. None of us are biologists. It would be interesting

:28:14.:28:17.

to talk about what is going on as opposed to these common

:28:18.:28:21.

misunderstanding is that we have. It is immensely complicated in some

:28:22.:28:24.

ways and in other ways enormously simple in that in day-to-day life

:28:25.:28:29.

there are men and women who broadly are male and female, so sex classes

:28:30.:28:37.

broadly map onto physical sex. Trans people are caught between these and

:28:38.:28:44.

that is important and I hope the report will deal with that

:28:45.:28:46.

constructively. But in everyday life the impression of women by men

:28:47.:28:51.

follows the line of sex and is about the exploitation of women as sex

:28:52.:28:57.

objects. And the argument of CN, do you think that ignores social

:28:58.:29:03.

conditions M if we focus on complexities, which is a fascinating

:29:04.:29:09.

and important, but small part of the argument, then we will start to

:29:10.:29:13.

overlook the structural violence that is practised by men against

:29:14.:29:18.

women. I would say again coming back to these proposals, which is why we

:29:19.:29:23.

are on this programme, the enquiry has been interesting, fascinating to

:29:24.:29:29.

see it unfold and fascinating to see someone like Maria Miller who went

:29:30.:29:35.

into it not knowing much, realising how much this affects our general

:29:36.:29:39.

way of being in society with each other. A poll last year found one

:29:40.:29:43.

third of people in the UK would not describe themselves as totally male

:29:44.:29:49.

or female. The number of trans people in society, 1% on current

:29:50.:29:51.

figures and intersex people... If Maria Miller takes this into

:29:52.:30:04.

legislation, what does it mean for male and female changing rooms,

:30:05.:30:08.

public loos, how you count the number of men and women on a census?

:30:09.:30:13.

This is hugely important. She says she wants to look at the wage gap

:30:14.:30:18.

and the glass ceiling. If you don't have a way of monitoring men and

:30:19.:30:23.

women as two separate classes, you can't study that. You are blurring

:30:24.:30:27.

all the lines, all the social construct aren't you? I think what

:30:28.:30:30.

we are saying, we don't have race on forms. The Government doesn't

:30:31.:30:35.

mandate my race or religion on the form. But if you are not collecting

:30:36.:30:42.

the data... If you will let me finish. Trans people are not

:30:43.:30:51.

arguing... It is vital that we can monitor data against discrimination.

:30:52.:30:55.

Would the data be that you start eroding that because you don't know

:30:56.:31:05.

where the definitions lie? I am finding this amusing. It is all

:31:06.:31:10.

hypotheticals. It is not hypothetical. We are talking about

:31:11.:31:17.

classifying data that is private in some respects. With the individual

:31:18.:31:22.

consent. If you can let me finish. It is a question of competing

:31:23.:31:27.

rights. How do we protect the rights and safety of trans people. There's

:31:28.:31:33.

a danger that we will look back and say, this revolution was happening

:31:34.:31:38.

and you were on the wrong side. You didn't realise that this was a civil

:31:39.:31:42.

rights movement in the way that race was or in the way that the gay

:31:43.:31:49.

moment was and by not accepting what's happening before your eyes

:31:50.:31:52.

you are missing the point. There are a lot of facets to what we talk

:31:53.:31:57.

about as trans. We are not just talking about people who physically

:31:58.:32:02.

transition and have genital reassignment surgery, but people who

:32:03.:32:08.

identify as the opposite sex or anything along a spectrum and make

:32:09.:32:15.

no physical or aesthetic changes but present that as their identity. How

:32:16.:32:21.

do you present somebody who has a penis and commits violence and wants

:32:22.:32:26.

to be admitted to female only spaces. In Kelly Maloney

:32:27.:32:37.

pretransition life Kelly Maloney attacked his wife. Rose West is in a

:32:38.:32:45.

prison and she attacked women... I'm so sorry, I wish we had longer for

:32:46.:32:49.

this. Great of you to come in. The Thank you.

:32:50.:32:52.

It is a year since the staff at Paris' satirical magazine,

:32:53.:32:54.

Charlie Hebdo, were targeted by murderers.

:32:55.:32:56.

This week, the magazine's new editor responded in customary style.

:32:57.:32:59.

A provocative front cover - and the words - "We're not

:33:00.:33:02.

going to let balaclava-clad scumbags ruin a lifetime's work."

:33:03.:33:06.

Those attacks - as we now know - were not to be the last of 2015.

:33:07.:33:10.

But the killings began what has now become seen as France's

:33:11.:33:12.

Tomorrow night on BBC Two, filmmaker Dan Reed reveals

:33:13.:33:21.

the untold story of the massacre - and of the first Islamic State

:33:22.:33:25.

This edited excerpt from his film features previously unseen footage

:33:26.:33:27.

and interviews with some of the hostages inside the grocery.

:33:28.:33:30.

You may find some scenes distressing.

:33:31.:40:10.

And you can see the full film - This World, Three Days of Terror:

:40:11.:40:14.

The Charlie Hebdo Attacks, tomorrow on BBC Two at 9.00pm.

:40:15.:40:19.

We leave you with President Barack Obama, who made an extraordinary

:40:20.:40:26.

statement on gun control tonight, which speaks for itself.

:40:27.:40:29.

Our inalienable right to life, and liberty and the pursuit

:40:30.:40:32.

of happiness, those rights were stripped from college kids

:40:33.:40:36.

in Blacksburg and Santa Barbara, and from high-schoolers

:40:37.:40:39.

in Columbine, and from first graders in Newtown.

:40:40.:40:54.

And from every family who never imagined

:40:55.:41:05.

their loved one would be taken from our lives by a bullet

:41:06.:41:08.

Every time I think about those kids it gets me mad.

:41:09.:41:29.

And by the way, it happens on the street of Chicago

:41:30.:41:32.

Unbelievably some parts of eastern Scotland have already had their

:41:33.:41:50.

second wettest January on record and we are only five days in. Further

:41:51.:41:55.

damp, dreary cold weather across the

:41:56.:41:56.

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