06/01/2016 Newsnight


06/01/2016

The Corbyn reshuffle fallout. Claims of multiple sexual assaults in Cologne by North Africans. The latest from Halabja. The creators of Making a Murderer.


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Transcript


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It was a reshuffle designed to bring unity around the Shadow Cabinet

:00:00.:00:08.

Three walk-outs later, the party stands as divided as ever.

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I don't think we can ever have a process like this ever again.

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The last few weeks, all of the briefing,

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which everybody tells me has come straight from the leader's office.

:00:24.:00:31.

We need to know exactly what has happened.

:00:32.:00:36.

The arguments go on - we'll ask is there anything that

:00:37.:00:39.

After dozens of attacks on women in Cologne,

:00:40.:00:42.

Germany's divided on how welcoming to be to migrants and refugees.

:00:43.:00:57.

The latest hot watch - dot-macro making a murderer.

:00:58.:01:09.

But are you equipped to take a view on a real life murder,

:01:10.:01:12.

Because you're watching this, you may not realise that the latest

:01:13.:01:29.

series of Celebrity Big Brother got going on Channel 5 yesterday.

:01:30.:01:32.

It's long, it's drawn out, it's a melodrama that runs all hours

:01:33.:01:34.

of day and night involving the comings and goings of people

:01:35.:01:37.

most of whom you've never heard of, and who seem to share only one thing

:01:38.:01:41.

Let's talk about the Labour reshuffle.

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Yesterday saw actual shadow cabinet changes,

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And another three changes caused by resignations.

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It's been a restive few days in the Labour ranks,

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a testing week for shadow cabinet discipline,

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and in fairness, cabinet discipline too.

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Is it all settled in the Labour Party now?

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it was in the dying minutes of yesterday that Labour's reshuffle

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was supposed to be finalised. The Shadow Foreign Secretary, apparently

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in jeopardy but then received. The shadow culture secretary was sacked

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for disloyalty and incompetence replaced by someone who didn't agree

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with the leader to be replaced by Emily Thornbury. This was the

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picture as we left it last night, as Westminster went to bed. These

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changes set in motion a ripple of discontent that spread through the

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rest of the Labour Parliamentary party. By morning it had led to

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resignations. One shadow minister resigned live on this morning's

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daily politics. Are you considering your position? I have just written

:03:06.:03:08.

to Jeremy Corbyn to resign from the front bench. It was clear a common

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theme was concerned, the reshuffle had moved Labour further towards

:03:17.:03:21.

unilateralism. He has appointed Emily Thornbury, who is closer in

:03:22.:03:25.

his views on Trident. But the fact of the matter is, we have got to be

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credible on defence in the country. Another common concern in the three

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resignations, how the shadow Europe minister, Pat McFadden, was treated.

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Sacked for what was seen as a thinly veiled criticism of Jeremy Corbyn's

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approach to terrorism. It sees terrorists act as being a response

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to what we in the West do. For Jonathan Reynolds, up until this

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morning the shadow rail minister, the reason given for Pat Mac

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hadn't's sacking was the last straw. I am concerned by sacking him and

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making the statement we will give the public the wrong impression

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about Labour national-security issues. I think it would be a

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fundamental mistake to let people think we endorse the view. Somehow

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we in the west always to blame but active terrorism. Smith said the

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reshuffle was necessary to give Labour a coherent voice. It is

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important we are united against the government and holding it to

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account. The party has been united on domestic issues. We have seen a

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U-turn on tax credits and a reversal of the proposed cuts to police

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funding which would have affected my constituency in Lancashire. Where we

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have had more variety of opinions has been on foreign policy and

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defence. This reshuffle have seen Jeremy Corbyn strengthen his

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position within the party to ensure we have a coherent message coming

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out from the Labour Party when it comes to holding the government to

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account. Part of the Parliamentary Labour Party have been traumatised

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by the reshuffle of the past few days and the briefings that preceded

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it. They want to find out why, in their view, this has been so badly

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handled. I don't think we can ever have a process like this again. It

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has been a complete disaster. The last few weeks, all of the briefing,

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which everybody tells me it has come straight from the leader's office.

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We need to know exactly what has happened. The party needs to look at

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this and we need answers from the leader's office. We need assurances

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it will never happen again. We cannot have a situation where senior

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shadow ministers are reading in the press they will be sacked and they

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are being picked off one by one. MPs will want assurances this never

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happens again. Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you, Mr Speaker. As the Labour

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leader appeared at Prime Minister's Questions, he had a Shadow Cabinet

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more in step with his thinking. Back can only help him. It is also clear

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he has had to pay a political price for this in worsening relations with

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some of the people sitting behind him.

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Joining me now is Diane Abbott, the Secretary of State for International

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Development. Very good evening. What an interesting three days.

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Let's clarify the rules of engagement. Hilary Benn, I think he

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said, you will go on exactly as before. John Macdonald described as

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what described as a change in the rules of engagement. Where do you

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stand on that? Jeremy has never been more popular with party members.

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What party members want to see is a Shadow Cabinet, people at the top of

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the party, reflecting the views of the party. What happened over Syria

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is Hilary Benn was reflecting his own views. The majority of the

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Shadow Cabinet voted with Jeremy. What is being asked is not unusual,

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just a measure of collective responsibility. Has something

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changed for the way Hilary Benn has to be head, or has nothing changed?

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Party members would like to think that when Hilary Benn gets up at the

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dispatch box, he will be reflecting the policies of the Labour Party. In

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that sense, that is what it should always have been. Let's pretend the

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Syria vote was being held next week and the debate is next week. Take me

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through how different it would be, there wouldn't be a free vote on

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Syria? Where would you go and that now? There is no merit are reliving

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history. What we are clear about as a team, we don't want a rerun of a

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position where the Shadow Foreign Secretary is not reflecting the

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views of the party. That is why you had a free vote? For me on the back

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ventures exercising my free vote and the Shadow Home Secretary getting up

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at the dispatch box and saying things that don't reflect the views

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of the party. Can Hilary Benn now speak in favour of Trident? It

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depends on the party policy. That was set at the party conference. We

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are about to review party policy. He cannot speak in favour of Trident

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now? You don't seem clear. I am perfectly clear. What the party

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looks for is the team at the top of the party that reflects a Labour

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Party policy. With respect, what the party looks for, there are rules of

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engagement between the Shadow Cabinet members that are slightly

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different to the rules that govern the normal cabinet. I am in the

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Shadow Cabinet, there are no written rules. Party members are tired of

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MPs, that is what MPs are bad. It is about the Labour Party turning their

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guns on the Tories are not this constant attacking of the

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leadership. He was saying Hilary Benn cannot argue in favour of

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Trident, even though it is Labour Party policy. Because the members

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don't like it. This is going round and round. But this is what you have

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been saying. I said we were reviewing our policy and depending

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on what the conclusions of the review is, we will expect the front

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bench team to reflect the Labour Party at that point. It Jeremy

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Corbyn says replacing Trident is a good idea, they will fall in line

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with that? Can you imagine Jeremy Corbyn arguing in favour of Trident?

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Can you imagine anybody querying Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Ed

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Miliband as to whether they were willing to reflects the views of the

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Labour Party. Most of the Shadow Cabinet were in favour of Trident,

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most of your members were not. Doesn't your party have a deep

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problem? Because if you're leading lights, the people who have risen to

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the top, if they don't agree with the members and you are saying the

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members are entitled to their view, how is it going to work? You buy

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into this obsessive Westminster stuff. I wonder how those people in

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the Shadow Cabinet, including Tom Watson, whether they are expected to

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say stuff they don't believe because the members want them to? Everyone

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in the Shadow Cabinet is a Democrat and a member of the Labour Party.

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They offer free spirits and intelligent people. When we arrived

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at our policy, we speak of the policy and that is how the party has

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always worked. Did you answer the one whether Hilary Benn can speak in

:11:11.:11:15.

favour of Trident tomorrow? We are in the middle of reviewing policy.

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So you cannot? We are facing a massively incompetent and uncaring

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of and and you want to take me round and round this Westminster quibble,

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instead of asking the question, what do party members want? They want us

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to turn our guns on the Tories. Why this constant hyperventilating about

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Jeremy? Donald today on Channel 4 News was talking about the hard

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right in the party. There is an argument going on in your party and

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neither side, you, nor the other side, seems able to put down the

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weapons and say, let's have a truce, shut up talking to each other and

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talk about the Tories. I am not attacking people, as people. I will

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say this about the people who have resigned and so on. Kevan Jones, I

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consider him a friend and he is a big loss. When you look at Jonathan

:12:23.:12:30.

Reynolds, if you look at Mr Dugher, look at some of the others, what do

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they have in common? They are all former specialist advisers. People

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that came up under a certain system, they did politics at university,

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became an MP and then a minister. Who are rightfully upset because

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Jeremy has brought new energy and new people into politics. I was

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putting to you the fact that neither side of the argument in your party

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can put down weapons and stop arguing. Then you said we need to

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turn our guns on the Tories and then immediately turned your fire on the

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party. It is not a left right... It is. A lot of people want to see

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authentic people at the top politics who necessarily having just been

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advisers. You had the accusation from Ian Austin in the piece about

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senior colleagues of Jeremy Corbyn briefing against other colleagues.

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Do you believe that has been going on? I don't. If we had evidence of

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it, would you believe it is disloyal and people who have been doing it

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should step aside? The idea is absurd. What Ian Austin is

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suggesting is something excessive and sinister, and wrong. It is

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simply not true. Just as Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, people get off the

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record briefings to people like yourself. Ian Austin's influencing

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saying it is wrong is absurd. Maria Eagle, who believes in Trident, was

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she removed because of that or some other reason? What do you think? I

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think you have an idea. Jeremy is a kind and thoughtful person and that

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is why his reshuffle took so long. He spoke to people at length. He has

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found a Maria Eagle a fantastic brief and she is happy. Most people

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believe it is because she believed in Trident and so she is the first

:14:40.:14:45.

person sacked from the card at -- cabinet. You'll have to ask Maria

:14:46.:14:50.

but Jeremy has strong support from the party and the country and they

:14:51.:14:52.

want us to attack the Tories. It has been said that she is happy

:14:53.:15:01.

with the move. That's correct. Is that right or just based on hope

:15:02.:15:07.

or... It is a great brief. What is not to like. What did David Mellor

:15:08.:15:13.

call it ministry for fun. We will ask her. It is a great brief. It is

:15:14.:15:16.

a pleasure. Thank you. Germany is in a state of some shock

:15:17.:15:20.

at events on New Year's Eve in Cologne and some

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other big cities. It was more than rowdy behaviour -

:15:24.:15:25.

fireworks were dangerously lobbed into crowds, there was

:15:26.:15:28.

intimidation of women, And it seems to have been

:15:29.:15:29.

perpetrated by large gangs of young To a country that has been

:15:30.:15:35.

so welcoming to refugees, it's led to some deep soul-searching

:15:36.:15:38.

and it's divided opinion. Katie Razzall has

:15:39.:15:41.

been looking into it. More than 100 women

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in Cologne reporting sexual harassment, robbery and even

:16:20.:16:25.

rape on New Year's Eve around Allegedly assaulted by groups of men

:16:26.:16:27.

described as of North African In a country coming to terms

:16:28.:16:33.

with a million new migrants last year alone, the attacks

:16:34.:16:41.

appear organised. Up to 1,000 men in groups

:16:42.:16:46.

surrounding women, to hem them in, New Year's Eve was last

:16:47.:16:49.

Thursday, but the news Originally the Cologne police said

:16:50.:17:10.

it had been a peaceful night, but when the story did emerge

:17:11.:17:16.

the media was slow to report it. One German TV channel today

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apologised but it has fed conspiracy theories about media

:17:21.:17:24.

bias towards refugees. supporters and the right-wing party

:17:25.:17:33.

which hopes to join the parliament after the nationwide

:17:34.:17:39.

elections next year. I think German media

:17:40.:17:41.

faces a dilemma here. On the one hand, they don't

:17:42.:17:44.

want to be called racist and they don't want to strengthen

:17:45.:17:47.

the Islamophobic movement by quickly reporting rumours or accusations

:17:48.:17:51.

circulating on Facebook. But if they act too

:17:52.:17:59.

slow alternative media outlets are quickly there,

:18:00.:18:02.

calling them lying press. Today, pro and anti-migrant

:18:03.:18:10.

demonstrators scuffled outside the station, as police said

:18:11.:18:11.

they were investigating links to a criminal network

:18:12.:18:14.

of North African Last night, demonstrators targeted

:18:15.:18:15.

the ruling CDU party which has welcomed so many refugees

:18:16.:18:22.

to Germany recently. The government said connecting

:18:23.:18:25.

the attacks to the issue of refugees is a misuse of

:18:26.:18:27.

the debate, but plenty of fearful. In a country already soul-searching

:18:28.:18:32.

about its generosity Newsnight has spoken to police

:18:33.:18:38.

the common who told us more than 50 women have now reported attacks

:18:39.:19:28.

with similar tactics The assailants are described

:19:29.:19:30.

as Arab, North African and southern The police say they

:19:31.:19:33.

expect more women to Marcus Pretzell is an MEP

:19:34.:19:36.

for the right wing party What conclusion do you draw from the

:19:37.:19:53.

events on New Year's Eve? Good evening. Well, I understand that

:19:54.:20:01.

there are people that are concerned it might be stereotypes we are

:20:02.:20:05.

talking about, but we have to see that this has never happened in

:20:06.:20:12.

Germany in the last decades. We have never experienced incidents like

:20:13.:20:18.

these that happened in Cologne, Hamburg, Stuttgart, and many other

:20:19.:20:23.

cities in Germany. So this is not only a stereotype, but it is

:20:24.:20:28.

reality. It has happened and we need to talk about why this happened, why

:20:29.:20:37.

it is that Arab men and Northern Africans don't accept our middle

:20:38.:20:43.

European culture and why they don't respect our women and that's an

:20:44.:20:47.

incident really we need to talk about and we need to talk about how

:20:48.:20:53.

we can integrate one and a half million people that came to Germany

:20:54.:21:00.

in 2015 alone and that might even have their families brought to

:21:01.:21:07.

Germany and will mean five to seven million foreigners come to Germany.

:21:08.:21:14.

When it comes to race and religion and nationality, one of the things

:21:15.:21:18.

we know is when you do generalise across a whole population that Arab

:21:19.:21:30.

men are like this, it doesn't lead anywhere construcktive, are you

:21:31.:21:35.

using this to tar a large number of people, most of whom are not groping

:21:36.:21:41.

womening, to tar them all with that same brush. Sorry I didn't

:21:42.:21:46.

understand the last phrase. Whether you're painting them all, everybody

:21:47.:21:51.

who is Arab or African by that smaller number of people who behave

:21:52.:21:56.

badly. Of course not. Because we have had one and a half million

:21:57.:22:04.

coming to Germany in 2015 and if it were only 1,000 men in Cologne on

:22:05.:22:08.

New Year's Eve and some hundred others in other cities. But still

:22:09.:22:15.

this is a huge number. It doesn't mean every Arab man is raping German

:22:16.:22:22.

women. Of course not. But what we have to see is that these incidents

:22:23.:22:31.

happen more often since we have had these so-called refugees in Germany

:22:32.:22:35.

and those numbers that we experienced in 2015. Sorry we are

:22:36.:22:40.

very much out of time. In a sentence, do you think what happened

:22:41.:22:44.

on Thursday last week has made a difference to public opinion in

:22:45.:22:50.

Germany? Yes of course it has, because the public now realises that

:22:51.:23:00.

women, that had been surrounded by these men, having the police

:23:01.:23:05.

standing around and not being able to help these women, and this is a

:23:06.:23:13.

traumatic thing to happen to women of course. And I believe there are

:23:14.:23:20.

many people in Germany now. Yes? Sorry, we do have to leave it there.

:23:21.:23:21.

We have ran out of time. In this country, in the west,

:23:22.:23:29.

we enjoy getting excited about the most trivial of things -

:23:30.:23:31.

ballroom dancing contests, Many of our human dramas

:23:32.:23:34.

are manufactured to be dramatic But for the next ten minutes,

:23:35.:23:37.

immerse yourself in a story from a less fortunate

:23:38.:23:43.

part of the world - a human tale of more

:23:44.:23:46.

substantial consequence than a talent show,

:23:47.:23:48.

but one which ended up on a television

:23:49.:23:50.

programme nevertheless. It's the story of a Kurd, Maryam,

:23:51.:23:53.

who through no fault of her parents, was separated from her

:23:54.:23:57.

family as a baby. First of all, if she could or not,

:23:58.:27:35.

which to a certain degree I can tell you she Is Kurd and she

:27:36.:27:48.

is one of the missing. Third thing is, which family

:27:49.:27:50.

does she belong to? Now we get some kind

:27:51.:27:57.

of answer for the You can watch the documentary on the

:27:58.:27:59.

news channel this weekend. That was produced, directed

:28:00.:34:33.

and filmed Now, on the subject of human

:34:34.:34:34.

drama on television, we are in the midst of a wave

:34:35.:34:39.

of engrossing real-life murder If you liked the podcast Serial,

:34:40.:34:41.

you might like HBO's The Jinx. Or the one that's being talked

:34:42.:34:45.

about at a watercooler near you now, a series from Netflix called

:34:46.:34:49.

Making a Murderer. It examines the case

:34:50.:34:50.

against Steven Avery, a working class man

:34:51.:34:52.

from rural, Wisconsin. The trouble he refers

:34:53.:34:54.

to was a wrongful conviction The people that were close to Steve

:34:55.:35:13.

knew what he was like coming he always liked to make people laugh.

:35:14.:35:16.

He didn't dress like everybody else, the family didn't fit into the

:35:17.:35:23.

community. Steve did a lot of stupid things, but he always owned up to

:35:24.:35:25.

what he had done. The trouble he refers

:35:26.:35:27.

to was a wrongful conviction He served 18 years for that before

:35:28.:35:29.

DNA evidence exonerated him - an astonishing miscarriage

:35:30.:35:33.

of justice and some shocking revelations are made about how

:35:34.:35:35.

he ended up in jail. I'm not giving anything

:35:36.:35:38.

away by the way - this The next nine hours of the series

:35:39.:35:40.

concern Mr Avery's subsequent Is he guilty, or is it the revenge

:35:41.:35:44.

of a Wisconsin justice system The documentary invites us

:35:45.:35:49.

to form a judgement, Earlier tonight I spoke

:35:50.:35:55.

to the film-makers Moira Demos They spent ten years documenting the

:35:56.:35:59.

story. Well, what we tried to do with this

:36:00.:36:10.

series was we saw this as an opportunity to

:36:11.:36:13.

document the process and we were there as events

:36:14.:36:15.

were unfolding and tried to document every step of the process and that's

:36:16.:36:18.

really how you can come to some sort But it will be up to

:36:19.:36:22.

viewers you know based What the prosecution did and how

:36:23.:36:28.

the court system worked whether we can rely

:36:29.:36:35.

on these verdicts. But I mean I ask the question,

:36:36.:36:41.

Laura, because 15,000 people have signed a petition asking

:36:42.:36:43.

for Steven Avery to be pardoned. Now they effectively have come up

:36:44.:36:47.

with their own judgment, they don't want a retrial,

:36:48.:36:50.

they want a pardon. Are they right to ask for that,

:36:51.:36:53.

or are they jumping the gun a I don't think the documentary places

:36:54.:36:56.

viewers in a position to really be able to fairly judge

:36:57.:37:02.

whether or not Steven Avery committed the crime

:37:03.:37:06.

for which he was charged You know, as Moira said,

:37:07.:37:10.

what we were setting out to do was to document the process that

:37:11.:37:22.

led to that conviction. But the short answer

:37:23.:37:24.

to your question is no, I do not believe

:37:25.:37:26.

that the documentary places viewers in a position

:37:27.:37:29.

to decide questions of guilt or not Are both of you open-minded about

:37:30.:37:33.

the case, or were you open-minded or did you go in with something

:37:34.:37:38.

of an agenda when you started? I think we were open-minded

:37:39.:37:49.

when we started and if anything The film isn't open-minded,

:37:50.:37:53.

the documentary isn't open-of-minded, no one really

:37:54.:37:59.

believes that, do they? You know we pointed the camera

:38:00.:38:03.

at things that were happening These are things that

:38:04.:38:13.

were not shared before It is a brilliant documentary

:38:14.:38:18.

series, but you're in with the family of Steven Avery

:38:19.:38:21.

and you're in with the defence, you're not there

:38:22.:38:24.

with the prosecution. Maybe the prosecution

:38:25.:38:25.

didn't want to help you, but it is clearly much more

:38:26.:38:27.

from that point of view than from an even-handed,

:38:28.:38:30.

other side point of view, Well, we are documentarians,

:38:31.:38:32.

which means we are storytellers and part of the story

:38:33.:38:38.

that we sought to tell was an exploration of the experience

:38:39.:38:42.

of an accused in the American criminal justice system and I think,

:38:43.:38:46.

as the series bears out, that's not just the experience

:38:47.:38:49.

of the person who is accused, but also the people

:38:50.:38:53.

who care about that person, the people who are intimately

:38:54.:38:55.

involved in their lives, so, yes, we you know spent quality

:38:56.:38:58.

time with the Averys and you know we very much include

:38:59.:39:02.

of course their point of view, as well as Steven

:39:03.:39:09.

Avery's point of view, But that said, we cast

:39:10.:39:11.

a very wide net. We reached out to

:39:12.:39:19.

people on all sides. Anybody who could offer

:39:20.:39:21.

a first hand account, who had some stake in the events

:39:22.:39:23.

that were playing out - and that included law enforcement,

:39:24.:39:26.

that included the prosecutor, Not just for the Halbach case,

:39:27.:39:29.

but this was a documentary series that spans 30 years, it is an epic,

:39:30.:39:35.

layered story and it's certainly not a series about did Stephen Avery

:39:36.:39:39.

and Brendan Dassey That would be

:39:40.:39:46.

a mischaracterisation But the prosecutors clearly aren't

:39:47.:39:54.

terribly happy and they have focussed on the fact that they think

:39:55.:40:00.

evidence that they consider important was not included

:40:01.:40:02.

in the selection that was put Well I mean I have heard some

:40:03.:40:05.

of what Ken Kratz is saying in the media, now he is saying some

:40:06.:40:13.

of these pieces of evidence are the most compelling

:40:14.:40:17.

pieces of evidence. That is never what he said

:40:18.:40:22.

during the two years You know, we took

:40:23.:40:25.

our clues of what to include of the State's

:40:26.:40:29.

case from the State, from the prosecutor,

:40:30.:40:31.

from his press conferences, from his opening statement

:40:32.:40:33.

and his closing argument. So we tried to put in you know

:40:34.:40:36.

in the three and a half hours we had for Stephen's trial the elements

:40:37.:40:44.

from the six-week trial that were the most important,

:40:45.:40:46.

the most damning What is so interesting

:40:47.:40:48.

about it and the documentary and the case is that

:40:49.:40:53.

you're accused to some extent of what you're accusing

:40:54.:40:57.

the justice system of - which is perhaps going in selecting

:40:58.:41:00.

the evidence that suits I just wonder whether

:41:01.:41:03.

you see the irony of that, that you're in a way

:41:04.:41:10.

being accused of fitting a story, which is what you're

:41:11.:41:13.

accusing the justice I don't really know how

:41:14.:41:16.

anyone is in a position We spent 10 years, collectively 20

:41:17.:41:21.

years, making this documentary, I guarantee you that

:41:22.:41:24.

you know we read all of the primary source materials we could get our

:41:25.:41:30.

hands on for a multitude of matters Just because the prosecutor now

:41:31.:41:36.

comes forward, after having declined various interview requests by us,

:41:37.:41:43.

and attacks us and understands the power of accusation

:41:44.:41:46.

doesn't mean that there there's any voracity

:41:47.:41:50.

to what he is saying or anyone should give any weight

:41:51.:41:54.

to what he's saying. We believe you know we achieved

:41:55.:41:58.

the goals we set out to achieve. So and we think that this

:41:59.:42:08.

is a social justice documentary, We always hoped it would promote

:42:09.:42:10.

a dialogue about our criminal justice system and if people

:42:11.:42:17.

want to take a slanted or myopic view of what this series really

:42:18.:42:20.

offers, that is their prerogative, but it doesn't mean

:42:21.:42:23.

that we need to engage Moira Demos and Laura Ricciardi,

:42:24.:42:26.

thank you both very much. We leave you with an odd centenary -

:42:27.:42:34.

the railway bridge in Durham, North Carolina, which is exactly 14

:42:35.:42:38.

feet and eight inches high, which is two feet lower

:42:39.:42:42.

than the standard US truck. It generally comes off best

:42:43.:42:48.

when it meets one of them, and this week it claimed

:42:49.:42:52.

its one hundredth victim. This being the 21st century,

:42:53.:42:54.

nearly all of it's victims have been recorded by one Mr Jurgen Henn

:42:55.:42:58.

for his website11foot8.com. So far the infamous bridge has

:42:59.:43:03.

claimed half a million dollars in damage and become a bit of a case

:43:04.:43:06.

study in the limitations The weather is on the change, but

:43:07.:43:59.

for the time being we have more rain to

:44:00.:44:00.