Browse content similar to 20/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's one of those apparently small issues that tells | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
Red painted front doors, a new front line in the arguments | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
Who did it, and why? I'd like to talk to Mr Monk about the red doors | :00:14. | :00:30. | |
for the asylum seekers. And we're here to talk about how | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
and where asylum seekers are housed. And in Davos we'll ask Kofi Annan | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
if we're handling the migration Is there an invisible ninth planet | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
secretly orbiting on the far edge Nasa's chief scientist | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
is here to help us out. Also tonight, the Gang of Four, | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
the Limehouse Declaration We look back at the last big split | :00:52. | :00:53. | |
on the left, and look Labour MPs are thinking, I think, | :00:54. | :01:12. | |
prematurely, about creating a new party. Because they see you can do | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
it. It may not have succeeded in every aspect, but that is an option. | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
The challenge of Europe's refugee and migrant crisis | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
There's the macro question - whether the current so-called Dublin | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
rule works, that the country of arrival has to take | :01:34. | :01:35. | |
But just as telling was a micro issue, highlighted by a report | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
A small and yet very significant issue. | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
In Middlesbrough, front doors of many homes allocated to asylum | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
seekers were painted red, in what turned out to be | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
The homes belonged to a subcontractor of G4S called | :01:52. | :01:58. | |
Red, it seems, was just the colour they chose for their property. | :01:59. | :02:06. | |
But should they have known it was causing problems? | :02:07. | :02:08. | |
And a far bigger question emerges - how do we choose where asylum | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
John Sweeney has spent the day in Middlesbrough | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
It does contain some bad language - and it's not from John Sweeney. | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
If it's a red door, it's a refugee. Welcome to the union Street area of | :02:22. | :02:30. | |
Middlesbrough, where you can pick up a house for ?45,000, and guess what, | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
lots of refugees end living here. Locals say they know where they live | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
because their houses have got rid doors. Civilised societies have a | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
duty to look after refugees. In Britain, the Government franchise | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
that out G4S, whose contract it to a property company, Jomast, who have a | :02:52. | :02:59. | |
signature look. Would you like to have a black door, for example? | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
Basically, it is red door, people can find out who we are very easily | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
full of they can? They can find out who we are, we are from not here. | :03:11. | :03:18. | |
Not everyone here is colour-blind. I just come out, I saw two young | :03:19. | :03:27. | |
girls, I spotted them and said why are you throwing that our window? | :03:28. | :03:39. | |
They said, locking black, get out of our country. This man lives behind a | :03:40. | :03:52. | |
red door, too. Fires have been said outside his house and the homes of | :03:53. | :04:02. | |
other refugees. When I compare the two issues, I actually preferred the | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
physical torture I have had in the past than this. Why? This is a big | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
statement, I understand that, but with the physical torture, at some | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
point those people who tortured me. Beating, but when I am here in this | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
house, the mental torture never stops. It is a continuous daily | :04:23. | :04:37. | |
torture. The problem is the consequences of asylum in society | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
are not visited on Richard poor alike, and the reason for that is | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
the cost of house prices. Middlesbrough, the country's poorest | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
town, has more asylum seekers than any other area of Britain. Four out | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
of ten councils don't has a single asylum seeker, and that includes | :04:56. | :05:03. | |
David Cameron's constituency of Witney. This is the home of Stuart | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
Monk, the owner of Jomast, said to be worth ?175 million. Let's go and | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
talk to the man behind the black door. | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
Hello, it's John Sweeney here from BBC Newsnight. I'd like to talk to | :05:22. | :05:29. | |
Mr Monk. About the red doors for the asylum seekers. But later, he did | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
talk to the BBC. I think it's been blown out of proportion. It wasn't | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
an issue before today, and as I say, the facts are that there was no | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
reporting of this issue by any asylum seekers, and that goes for | :05:49. | :05:57. | |
both ourselves and for G4S. But that is not how others remember it. Do | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
you think it is likely to make the accommodation more safe, painting | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
the doors different colour, in this case, read, so that whole | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
neighbourhood knows who the asylum seekers are? Do you think that is a | :06:09. | :06:16. | |
good idea? The fact that our supplier, Jomast, who supplied | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
services to asylum seekers in the previous contract as well as with | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
G4S, I can't comment on the doors being painted red, but I will take | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
that point away. And Newsnight understands this issue was flagged | :06:30. | :06:37. | |
up four years ago. We were at a meeting where the whole thing was | :06:38. | :06:39. | |
discussed and gone into. Where was that meeting? It was in September 20 | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
12. So it has been going on for quite some time. There is no excuse | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
for anybody to say they didn't know about it. Do you think that there | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
has been adequate supervision by the Government of this issue? I think | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
there needs to be a lot more supervision of this contract, a lot | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
more. People have come here because they are seeking sanctuary. Clearly | :07:05. | :07:12. | |
the refugees have effectively been colour-coded, and for too | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
the refugees have effectively been people in the know haven't been | :07:17. | :07:16. | |
listening. I'm joined by Dame Margaret Hodge, | :07:17. | :07:18. | |
who was chair of the public accounts committee which looked into some | :07:19. | :07:47. | |
of the conditions of these houses and first heard reports | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
of the red doors in 2014. She was something of an enemy of G4S | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
won more than one occasion. And from Strasbourg, | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
Ukip's migration spokesman, Margaret Hodge, what is very | :08:02. | :08:11. | |
interesting is that you did spot the issue of red doors, but you didn't | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
follow it up or make anything of it. It is only the times bringing it up | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
today that has brought it to everybody's attention. First of all, | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
I'm really angry with G4S, because through their stupidity they have | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
allowed this programme tonight to interview Ukip who no doubt will | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
bang on about how we have got too many asylum seekers, too many | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
immigrants, too many refugees, and they have allowed it to be exploited | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
in the wrong way, and that makes me angry. The second thing to say is | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
when we did that hearing, it was raised, G4S said they would go away | :08:46. | :08:47. | |
and look for it, the permanent secretary for the Home Office said | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
he would do a very thorough check on the quality of the accommodation, | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
but we were also raising other issues, because the quality of the | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
accommodation that was being offered by G4S was frankly shocking. Nine | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
families living on one floor with only two toilets, one hostel in | :09:08. | :09:15. | |
another area in a red light district where women felt they were being | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
looked at... So general picture wasn't good. But you didn't follow | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
up on red doors? You didn't go back to G4S and say, you said you would | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
come back on this? We assume that when people say they are going to go | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
away and do something, they do it, and we assume in the permanent | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
Secretary to the Home Office says he is concerned about the quality of | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
the accommodation, that he will make regular checks. One of the things | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
that stands me is that in the statement today, what the Home | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
Office have said is that they check the third of the accommodation every | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
month. If they were doing that, somebody should have tweaked that | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
this was an incendiary way of stigmatising asylum seekers. Let me | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
bring Stephen Wolf in. Margaret Hodge says you will make political | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
capital of this. Can we just talk about the policy of how we | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
distribute asylum seekers around the country. Do you think the system is | :10:10. | :10:17. | |
working? You are quite right, I think the colour of the red doors is | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
simply a red herring. The real issue is the collapse of our asylum policy | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
system and the way that not only do we allocate across the country, but | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
also the tone and level of the debate as has just been shown by | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
Margaret. Unfortunately she seems to go along the same lines of once | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
leader Gordon Brown that would call people a bigot for raising the issue | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
of immigration, or indeed her Shadow secretary of defence who makes | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
complaints about people who have British flags during campaigns. I | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
just want to get onto the issue... Si I am doing. The collapse of the | :10:55. | :11:03. | |
asylum system is due to the weight of the numbers coming in. The | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
anticipation of the numbers who will come in, and the more important part | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
I find about this is that there is a north /south divide, a class divide | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
between those who have gone to university and those who have not, a | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
wealth divide to in those who advocate more asylum seekers who | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
tend to be in London in the areas like Margaret, which is Islington | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
who are very wealthy, and the poorest people in this country are | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
having to take the largest burden of this, and I find that part | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
unacceptable. Margaret Hodge, that is an interesting point. To save | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
money on housing asylum seekers, they are being put in communities | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
who have less voice, less power, and who may be already have problems of | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
their own, and they don't need any social dislocation, as they would | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
see it. Asylum accommodation used to be provided by local authorities. | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
The coalition Government when they came in chose this is one of the | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
areas where they wanted to have savings, and they thought that | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
economies of scale, having some big contract, would save the money. And | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
I think it was one of those areas where actually it didn't bring | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
value, and I'm not sure it even save the cash. And let me just say why. | :12:15. | :12:24. | |
Eirik present barking -- I represent barking. We have a lot of people | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
coming in. I think a concentration of asylum seekers in one area, and I | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
agree... Are you saying that the numbers that have been put in some | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
areas should not be put in those areas? I agree that there is an | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
overconcentration in Middlesbrough, and I also agree that they tend to | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
go to the poorer areas. But can I just put the other side of this | :12:50. | :12:57. | |
argument? When a group of people arrived as refugees from a | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
particular community, they go to an area, and as their friends and | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
relatives arrive, they will also want to be close to them full up so | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
they build a network, and it is a very complex issue, and what you | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
have to do is provide public servers infrastructure so that the community | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
can accept them and integrate. Stephen Woolfe, what is the Ukip | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
solution? I know you would have fewer people here, but in the | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
interim, do you have a solution as to how you how is people who are | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
already here? The solution has to look at general immigration that | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
comes into this country, because that has an impact on housing and | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
schools, and with that, you then have obligations international | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
obligations to deal with asylum, and when you are looking at housing, the | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
housing situation you have to consider is where are most of these | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
people going to find work that works for them, and a lot of that now is | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
down towards the south and London, and what you have to consider there | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
is where you find the areas that these people can go into. Are you | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
saying, we have got very little time. Why is it that we are not | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
building in the very wealthy areas of Hamstead and Islington and | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
Highgate, why do we not all the tower blocks there? There is plenty | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
of land and capability. But we don't. The decisions are always | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
pushed the North of England and the poorest areas, the places in the | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
north-west where I am a constituency MEP, and I find that utterly unfair. | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
I'm afraid we are utterly out of time, you have left us with a | :14:39. | :14:40. | |
provocative solution there. Well, at the EU level, | :14:41. | :14:42. | |
the refugee issue is not one that can be painted over, | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
in red or any other colour. The European Commission | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
is grappling with how to handle The Dublin Regulation in principle | :14:49. | :14:50. | |
means that the thousands arriving each day on European shores | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
are the problems of Greece and Italy, the countries | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
where they arrive. That hasn't worked, but nor has | :14:57. | :14:58. | |
the ambition to share people around. This is one of Europe's only few | :14:59. | :15:16. | |
growth industries, hundreds of miles of razor wire going up across the | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
continent. The president of the EU council, the Dutch, have made the | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
issue their current priority. The current numbers are not sustainable. | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
We are running out of time. We need a sharp reduction in the number of | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
refugees in the coming 6-8 weeks. The current rules were based on ones | :15:38. | :15:44. | |
agreed in 1990. They state that the first EU country which an asylum | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
seeker arrives in is responsible for them. But there is little incentive | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
for those of rival countries, like Greece and Italy, to cooperate. | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
Better to let the asylum seekers pass swiftly through to their | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
preferred destinations in northern Europe. Britain has an opt out from | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
migration and home affairs matters, but it is opted in the Dublin | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
regulations, because it helps us. It allows us to say that those in | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
Calais for example have no right to claim asylum in the UK. We are very | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
concerned from the noises coming out of the commission about the Dublin | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
agreement. We will want to engage to make sure that any changes protect | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
Britain's interest. Angela Merkel in effect suspended the Dublin rules | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
last year when she told would-be asylum seekers that if they could | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
get to Germany, they would not be sent back to their country of entry. | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
More than 1 million took up the invitation. But the scale of that | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
influx, as well as events in Germany over New Year, mean that many in | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
Germany now want a reduction to those numbers. Today, the president | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
added his voice. At some point, as problematic and tragic as it may be, | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
we will not be able to take in everyone. It is one thing to agree | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
that the system is broken - another to agree what should replace it. But | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
increasingly, countries are going it alone, bringing in their own systems | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
outside the EU. Austria today announced it would cap the number | :17:10. | :17:18. | |
allowed to claim asylum at 70,000 a year -- 37,000 a year, less than | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
half the previous number. But what happens else otherwise? Some kind of | :17:24. | :17:31. | |
unspecified distribution around Europe. Austria cannot accommodate | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
all asylum seekers, announced the Chancellor today. On Austria's | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
southern border, Slovenia says it will also bring in a limit. That | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
will push the problem across its own southern border, to Croatia. And | :17:45. | :17:53. | |
further south still, Macedonia, taking action, and the route to | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
northern Europe is seizing up fast. Also, the Schengen agreement. I | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
think Europe would be much better if we ended the Schengen arrangements, | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
had internal border controls but also countries offering sanctuary to | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
those who have been assessed as refugees. But the European | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
Commission would not abandon Schengen without a fight. | :18:17. | :18:18. | |
Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the commission, made that clear | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
today. Getting rid of him, he told the parliament in Strasbourg, will | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
hurt the single market. And without a single market, the day will come | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
when we ask, do we really need a single currency and the free | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
movement of workers? In March, EU leaders will meet for a special | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
summit to find a solution. Whatever they decide, it seems they will be | :18:41. | :18:42. | |
ordering more of this. It so happens a lot of policy-makers | :18:43. | :18:44. | |
and business people are holed up this week in the Swiss | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
resort town of Davos for the annual One person among them is Kofi Annan, | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
who used to be secretary general He was also an envoy to Syria | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
in 2012, although didn't get far I spoke to him earlier today | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
about Syria, but first about Europe's response | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
to the refugee crisis. I think it has been difficult for | :19:08. | :19:20. | |
Europe. And it is unfortunate that it is also dividing Europe. We all | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
have a responsibility to our refugees. -- to assist refugees. | :19:25. | :19:31. | |
They have rights. And the countries in the region have done a lot. Some | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
European countries have tried to do better than others, but of course | :19:36. | :19:37. | |
they are coming under tremendous pressure at home. I also believe | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
that the mainstream leaders have not been outspoken. They should have | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
started earlier on explaining to the public what it is all about. Why is | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
it that these refugees are coming and what needed to be done? By not | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
doing so, they allow the extremists and the right-wing parties to take | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
the issue in a completely different direction. And now they are playing | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
catch-up. I don't know what you think of the British approach, which | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
has been to say, we do not want to take people who have landed in | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
Europe, we want to help people back in or around Syria itself - is that | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
a better approach, or is it a more heartless approach? That was the | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
usual approach. When we had the Vietnamese boat people's crises, | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
that was the way it was handled. You scream them on the ground. If the US | :20:35. | :20:42. | |
wanted 20,000, you flew them out. If the UK wanted 5000, you flew them to | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
the UK. It was not a situation of people walking across and coming | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
across the border in the way it has happened in Europe recently. And I | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
think attempts are being made to get back to that effect of, smooth | :20:56. | :21:04. | |
handling of refugee cases. Just to be clear, I am guessing you support | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
the European Commission, which is trying to look again at the | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
so-called Dublin Convention, which says the first country in which they | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
arrive is the one which has to handle them, which really means | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
Greece and Italy have hundreds of thousands of people who they are | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
responsible for. Is that dead, as far as you can see? That is the | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
requirement, that is the law. But there comes a time when an exception | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
has to be made. The situation is such that one cannot leave Greece | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
and Italy alone to bear the brunt. Looking ahead, one decade, three | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
decades, five decades - is this migration issue going to become more | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
and more acute for the world, and do we have what you might call | :21:54. | :21:55. | |
governments arrangements, arrangements of any kind, for | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
handling it as a global issue? The movement of people will continue. | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
And if we are not able to handle the climate crisis properly, we will see | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
more people on the move. But we do not have the laws and the rules to | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
tackle that kind of movement. So there is urgency for the | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
international community to look at the way it handles movements of | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
people, which is really going to be on the increase. Of course, one of | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
the immediate causes of migration is the Syrian civil war. You were an | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
envoy back in 2012. I wonder whether you have got hopes talks which are | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
meant to be starting in Geneva next week? The moment I don't think we | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
even know exactly who will be there. Has some progress being made since | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
you were trying to sort it out those years ago? I am confident that the | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
US and Russia will have effective co-operation. I have confidence in | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
Secretary Kerry and Foreign Minister Lavrov. I think they will work | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
effectively with the other powers. The difficulty will be getting the | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
regional powers to cooperate. I think we have seen the situation in | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
the region become much more complicated. We need to see Iran, | :23:11. | :23:20. | |
Saudi Arabia, Turkey, working effectively with the permanent | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
members of the council. And today we are not there yet. And those who | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
have influence on the fighters on the ground, either on the Syrian | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
government side or on the side of the rebels, have to bring their | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
influence to bear. They have to press them to go to the table. Isis | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
of course is a new factor in Syria. It was not there when you were | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
around in 2012. Do you think it is possible to talk to Isis? A phrase | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
which has been used is a route through to Isis, in terms of | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
communication - is it possible, do you think? I do not see them at the | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
table. I don't think they would be invited, nor would they want to go. | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
On the other hand, you cannot delete them through military means alone. | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
There are other political measures which will have to be taken, and | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
some concessions which will have to be made by governments in the | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
region. And I think we need to work with the Iraqi government to make | :24:20. | :24:28. | |
sure that they treat all their constituents, citizens, | :24:29. | :24:35. | |
evenhandedly. Today, the Sunnis feel that they are not fairly treated and | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
there is a tendency that quite a lot of them have sympathy, or | :24:42. | :24:48. | |
originally, they did have some pretty for Isis. We need to pull | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
them away from that support. I wonder what you make of the fate of | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
humankind at the moment. There have been people who have been very | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
optimistic, who say the world is becoming less violent and more | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
empathetic. We understand our fellow human beings better than we did in | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
medieval times, or 2000 years ago. When you look at that conflict, what | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
conclusion do you draw about our species and its capacity for | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
cruelty? I have been appalled by some of the violence and brutality | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
we have seen in the Syrian situation. But I don't think it is | :25:21. | :25:27. | |
all hopeless. We should not forget the 30 year war in Europe. It took | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
the European countries to realise that it was a senseless war, when | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
nobody wins, and they came together and had their moment at the peace of | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
Westphalia. And I hope that will also happen in Syria. People will | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
wake up. The governments have to understand, this is a common danger, | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
it is engulfing us all. The brutality is not now limited to the | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
region, it is spreading around the world. So it is difficult, it is | :26:00. | :26:08. | |
tough for courage is not hopeless. It is not hopeless. The world has | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
seen this before, and terrorists have risen up time and again but | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
they have always been defeated. Kofi Annan, thank you so much. | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
American scientists have discovered another planet in our solar system - | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
Let's not get into the debate about Pluto and its underclass | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
The thing about the putative new planet is that it's currently | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
Its existence has been imputed by scientists based | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
But it is just the latest example of the rapid pace of advance | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
in space science, and the interest it generates. | :26:42. | :26:43. | |
To be followed soon, possibly, by more space exploration. | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
Apollo put humans on the moon, hundreds of thousands of miles away. | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
It inspired a generation of scientists and engineers. | :26:55. | :27:03. | |
Because of what you have done, the heavens have become a part of man's | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
world. Then as the Cold War ended, | :27:09. | :27:09. | |
so did much of the ambition And since, man has retreated | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
to a less stellar, low earth orbit. A mere few hundred kilometres | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
from earth. But are we in a new era | :27:19. | :27:20. | |
of deep space exploration? By the mid-2030s, I believe we can | :27:21. | :27:34. | |
send humour humans to orbit Mars and return safely to Earth. Landing on | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
Mars will follow. And I expect to be around to see it. | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
Those were the words, but it took until just before | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
Christmas for Congress to cough up some money - | :27:45. | :27:46. | |
increasing Nasa funding to its highest level | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
But it came with a note to up the ambition - | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
So now big plans to capture an asteroid and land humans on Mars | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
Joining me now is Dr Ellen Stofan, the chief scientist at Nasa. | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
She's responsible for planning all of the agency's scientific | :28:09. | :28:10. | |
Very nice to have you with us. Let's start with the ninth planet. Do you | :28:11. | :28:23. | |
believe it exists? I think it is an intriguing theory. I have glanced at | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
the paper. They are looking at the orbits of very distant object in our | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
solar system, out in the belt where Pluto is. But even more distant than | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
Pluto is a bunch of objects which have ordered orbits. So they have | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
come up with an explosion which says there could be a super Earth sized | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
planet, between the size of Earth and Neptune, very, very far out, | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
such that its orbit around the sun would take almost 20,000 years. So, | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
is it there? Is it not? Are there other expert nations? What is | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
amazing is that we might have missed one this big in our own system? It | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
is, but on the other hand, if it has this huge orbit and you have to be | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
looking at the right place at the right time... The fact that we have | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
not seen it makes me a bit sceptical. We have identified lots | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
of planet in this category of Supermac Earths, over 5000 planet | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
candidates. The fact that we do not have a planet in that size class | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
between Earth and Neptune makes us think, maybe we are missing one. And | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
maybe they have predicted it. What it does show is that it is quite an | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
exciting time. It is not like we have discovered all there is to | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
discover. There is so much coming in. We have the landing on the | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
comet. It is endless. When I speak to school kids, I say, you need to | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
major in science, technology, engineering and maths. Over the next | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
20 years, as we start exploring these planets around other stars | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
which we have been discovering with the the space telescope, we start | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
allergy analysing their atmospheres, with our James Webster the scope, | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
and there will be a field of trying to understand whether these planets | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
around other stars are potentially habitable. You are trying to make | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
them interested in science, of course. You will give them pictures | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
of people landing on the moon and the like. But actually a lot of the | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
science is complicated mathematics, really, to work out that there is | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
another planet that we did not know about! But I think it is fun when | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
you can talk to kids and say, you think of maths as being boring and | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
hard, but think of it as a tool which you can use to land on a | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
distant planet, to image a planet around another star. And then they | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
might think it is worth doing their homework. Landing on Mars would be a | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
big inspiration, which would be very exciting. Do you think the race to | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
get on Mars will be a race, or will it be a collaboration, like the | :30:55. | :30:55. | |
International Space Station? I think it is going to be a | :30:56. | :31:08. | |
collaboration. The space station is a good example. When we look at | :31:09. | :31:15. | |
Mars, we have 16 agencies around the world collaborating on something | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
called the global exploration road map, looking at how we get humans | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
beyond low Earth orbit. And whose flag is going to be planted on Mars | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
first? The UN flag? Were the Americans say, we are paying most, | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
we want our flag? I think there will be lots of flags planted, but I | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
think it will be an international crew that gets there. It is also | :31:40. | :31:47. | |
public/private. Private companies want to go, so it is a whole new way | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
of collaborating and moving humans outwards into the solar system. | :31:52. | :31:54. | |
Thank you very much for coming and talking to us. | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
We are approaching the 35th anniversary of a landmark event | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
in British political history - the Limehouse Declaration. | :32:01. | :32:02. | |
Well, it seemed like a landmark at the time. | :32:03. | :32:05. | |
What it was was a statement of Social Democratic values | :32:06. | :32:07. | |
and a first step to the creation of the Social Democratic | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
Now, we don't normally consider 35th anniversaries to be among the big | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
ones, but as the SDP was a party created by a gang of four leading | :32:16. | :32:23. | |
Labour politicians, fed up with the leftward drift | :32:24. | :32:25. | |
of their party, it seems like an apt time to remember it. | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
Lewis Goodall has been talking to those who were there. | :32:29. | :32:35. | |
Where there is despair, may we bring hope. | :32:36. | :32:45. | |
The Labour Party establishment was in | :32:46. | :32:47. | |
Deselection, a left-wing leader and rows over unilateral nuclear | :32:48. | :32:56. | |
A great deal of bullying of members of Parliament, | :32:57. | :33:04. | |
the militant tendency, but others of that kind, | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
At that conference, at that year, it was noted, the mood | :33:12. | :33:19. | |
and the style and the hostility, it was ugly by any standards. | :33:20. | :33:29. | |
By the party conference of 1981, the left-wing | :33:30. | :33:31. | |
Michael Foot had won a surprise victory for the leadership. | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
At Labour's special conference at Wembley today, | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
historic decisions and a major surprise. | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
For the Labour right, led by the gang of four, | :33:44. | :33:45. | |
the fight had become too much to bear. | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
In the party structure, one of the main ones | :33:49. | :33:50. | |
In effect what it did was to put each MP at | :33:51. | :33:57. | |
the risk of their own general management committee. | :33:58. | :33:59. | |
It was not anything outside, it was not | :34:00. | :34:01. | |
It was certainly not the constituents. | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
Much damage has been done to the cause of the aquatic | :34:05. | :34:06. | |
Roy Hattersley urged the gang of four to stay and fight. | :34:07. | :34:17. | |
"Save the Labour Party" and "leave the Labour Party" are mutually | :34:18. | :34:19. | |
The special conference was awful because there was a great deal | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
of vindictiveness from people who were changing | :34:25. | :34:25. | |
I went out into the night pouring with rain, could not find my car | :34:26. | :34:33. | |
Walking around wet and unhappy, and I had one thought, | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
which is, if the ship sinks, I will go down with it. | :34:38. | :34:45. | |
It is necessary every now and then within every democratic political | :34:46. | :34:47. | |
system for some people to say, up with this I will not put. | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
There are certain issues which are bigger than | :34:52. | :34:52. | |
They are what is right for the country. | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
It was agonising, like leaving one's family or divorcing one's loved | :35:00. | :35:01. | |
And there was a lot of emotional pull in the whole | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
I had a letter from one person who wrote to me afterwards | :35:08. | :35:16. | |
saying, I am very sorry, Bill, it now means the end of our old, | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
practical relationship, but I hope we will not | :35:23. | :35:24. | |
forget our feelings towards each other. | :35:25. | :35:33. | |
It is very easy to weep for that, really. | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
But once you have made your mind up, it all becomes | :35:37. | :35:38. | |
It becomes challenging, exciting, a test of your strength | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
On January 25th 1981, the press were called | :35:43. | :35:50. | |
There was a sense of liberation, and I think we all knew | :35:51. | :36:01. | |
We weren't slaves to Labour Party policy. | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
And I think that is what the SDP did. | :36:08. | :36:18. | |
Before long, the SDP was soaring high, polling over 50% | :36:19. | :36:20. | |
They scored a spectacular by-election win. | :36:21. | :36:29. | |
Roy Jenkins noted in his diary that he thought he might at last | :36:30. | :36:40. | |
become Prime Minister and break the mould of British politics. | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
There comes a time when you cannot... | :36:46. | :36:47. | |
Your life would be a living hypocrisy. | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
That is Mr Healey and Mr Hattersley, when you advocate | :36:53. | :36:54. | |
policies, major policies, you don't believe it. | :36:55. | :36:56. | |
Two words brought it all to a shuddering end, | :36:57. | :36:58. | |
and that was called the Falkland Islands. | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
The Falklands War gave Margaret Thatcher | :37:04. | :37:05. | |
After all the hype and the hope, the 1983 election | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
Although the SDP Liberal alliance took 25% of the vote, | :37:11. | :37:20. | |
nearly overtaking Labour, the SDP took a paltry six seats. | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
When you look at the electoral system, | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
first-past-the-post makes it very, very difficult for a party | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
to create, start and in one fell swoop | :37:34. | :37:35. | |
We had to build it up and we had to build it up by taking Labour | :37:36. | :37:47. | |
votes and we had to smash into Labour in the '83 | :37:48. | :37:49. | |
election because they deserved to be smashed into. | :37:50. | :37:51. | |
And the failure to do that was namby-pambyism, really. | :37:52. | :38:00. | |
It had two effects - one was to alienate floating voters | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
who were worried about the Labour Party being | :38:08. | :38:09. | |
It proved it because these people have left, they split | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
And they had a general debilitating effect on the party in general, | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
the feeling that we had lost good comrades. | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
There is no doubt at all that it had an effect. | :38:21. | :38:22. | |
They have more responsibility for Mrs Thatcher | :38:23. | :38:24. | |
For the next five years, as Labour recovered | :38:25. | :38:35. | |
and moved rightwards, the party band to decline before | :38:36. | :38:37. | |
eventually merging with the Liberals. | :38:38. | :38:39. | |
Relationships among some of the gang of four broke | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
And now, 35 years on, for these political veterans | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
who have seen it all before, could it, should | :38:49. | :38:50. | |
I think the situation now is worse than the | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
I think our chances of getting back are still there and we will get | :38:56. | :39:01. | |
I think the leader is less susceptible to reason than Michael | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
Foot was, who was a sensible, mature politician, although from the left. | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
I think the trade unions are in a different position | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
But someone has got to carry on the fight, and must do it | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
The lesson of the gang of four - you don't win by leaving, | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
Now, it is a different story because Jeremy | :39:22. | :39:29. | |
I think he is like a Michael Foot son, a kind of idealist | :39:30. | :39:37. | |
who is being manoeuvred and to some extent manipulated by exactly | :39:38. | :39:39. | |
But they are now not visible in the same way. | :39:40. | :39:50. | |
You know under fixed parliaments, there is not | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
So I would not give a thought to a new party | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
It may have been buried, but I think it will | :40:01. | :40:07. | |
I think the one way out of the mess we are in at the moment is the SDP | :40:08. | :40:17. | |
concept struggling back and becoming a basis on which eventually, | :40:18. | :40:19. | |
hopefully, there can be a new party of the centre-left. | :40:20. | :40:32. | |
Seems like yesterday! The best bit was Bill Rogers in the Crosby | :40:33. | :40:40. | |
by-election forgetting where he was. But today is World Penguin Awareness | :40:41. | :40:42. | |
Day, if you're to believe the internet and nearly | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
all the newspapers. Curiously, no-one seems to know | :40:47. | :40:48. | |
who decided this day should be celebrated or even when exactly it | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
first started being observed, but then I suppose you could say | :40:52. | :40:53. | |
the same thing about Christmas. Anyway, why would you want to argue | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
when we can leave you with one MUSIC: Do It Again | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
by the Beach Boys. | :41:00. | :41:07. |