Browse content similar to 19/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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How to tell what's going wrong in the world economy right now. | :00:07. | :00:12. | |
Now, desperately touting for business. | :00:13. | :00:23. | |
Our average rate is $2600 per day. That compares with a peak of the | :00:24. | :00:30. | |
teen 250,000. For those who thought China | :00:31. | :00:32. | |
would grow at a lightning speed forever, find themselves | :00:33. | :00:34. | |
disappointed - the world is dealing We'll ask Jeffrey Sachs how we got | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
here, and how we might Is Poland's new government eroding | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
democracy, and should For all that we made | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
for the last 25 years. Donald Trump gets endorsed | :00:46. | :00:56. | |
by Sarah Palin no less. Is he just a joke candidate | :00:57. | :01:13. | |
with a new punchline or the unstoppable | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
republican nominee? You might have noticed that we've | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
been covering different items of economy news lately - | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
low oil prices, problems in the steel industry, | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
a slowdown in China and a resulting We could add today's | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
inflation figures here - What's particularly interesting | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
is that these are all in their own way, manifestations of the same | :01:37. | :01:44. | |
global economic story. One that's summarised | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
in the word overcapacity. The world economy is beset by it - | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
we've got more steel, more oil, more stuff | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
than we currently know how to buy. That's why inflation remains | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
dormant, it explains why we're finding it hard to export more, - | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
how can we sell more, when there's too much | :02:02. | :02:03. | |
out there already? Overcapacity explains why it's | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
turning out to be hard to make We'll talk more about it shortly, | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
but if you want another example of it - a metaphor for the dashed | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
optimism of recent years, take a look at the extraordinary | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
events in the global These ships setting off Gibraltar | :02:20. | :02:35. | |
are being buffeted in the wake of global forces. Owners of big car go | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
vessels are bleeding money at the amount they can charge is | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
collapsing. It tells you a lot about how global trade has been weakening. | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
There are three categories of merchant ship. Tankers which carry | :02:53. | :03:00. | |
liquids, container ships which carry stuff in shipping containers. | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
Finally, dry bulk carriers, ships that carry coal or Ireland. It is | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
the cost of that which is measured by the dry bulk index. It tells you | :03:15. | :03:23. | |
what is happening to the cost of shipping loose stuff. It is used as | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
an economic indicator to show demand for those sorts of goods. At the | :03:28. | :03:36. | |
moment it is at an all-time low. It is under shooting the prices | :03:37. | :03:44. | |
registered. It has never been a worse time. At the moment the | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
average rate for a ship which carries 180,000 tonnes is $2600 per | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
day. That is incredibly low. That compares with a peak rate of between | :03:57. | :04:09. | |
200,000-250,000. That was an incredibly high market just as this | :04:10. | :04:18. | |
is an incredibly low market. Our ship owners losing money? | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
Absolutely. That is well below expenses, takes no account of | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
depreciation or funding. You can hire exactly this kind of ship for | :04:29. | :04:41. | |
less than $3000 per day. The cause of this is massive overcapacity. | :04:42. | :04:53. | |
World dry bulk capacity was 177 million gross tonnes. By 2014 it was | :04:54. | :05:06. | |
more than double. You've got rather desperate ship yards out there in | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
places like Korea and China. They've been offering huge discounts. They | :05:13. | :05:21. | |
want to place big orders. They've had these big deliveries on the | :05:22. | :05:30. | |
premise that China would keep going. There is a huge mismatch between the | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
supply of ships and the demand to move stuff. You can see how much | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
China matters when you look at what is allocated to keep size ships. The | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
key routes are from South America through to China and from Australia | :05:48. | :05:58. | |
through to China. All the largest mines are in South America and | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
Australia. You can see why if China is having a bad time, it will hit | :06:04. | :06:12. | |
these carriers. Yes, if China is struggling then these are the groups | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
these carriers. Yes, if China is where you will be seeing | :06:16. | :06:15. | |
increasingly less activity. where you will be seeing | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
similar process to dry bulk. Tankers are different. The tanker market is | :06:24. | :06:32. | |
2012, 2013, it was rotten, nobody 2012, 2013, it was rotten, nobody | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
ordered new ships. You did not have the problem of having a big glut of | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
new ships trashing rates. The the problem of having a big glut of | :06:42. | :06:51. | |
waiting is further cutting tanker supply. By contrast, there is not | :06:52. | :06:53. | |
enough like this busy. You might think | :06:54. | :07:08. | |
overcapacity as like this busy. You might think | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
the world economy is a nice problem to have. | :07:14. | :07:21. | |
And to make it worse, the people who paid for that | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
overcapacity - who've built unnecessary ships, | :07:28. | :07:28. | |
or who've invested in oil, thinking the price would be 100 | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
a barrel, or who have shares in steel factories - | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
they will all find the money they thought they'd | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
So - how did we we get into this, and how do we get out of this? | :07:38. | :07:45. | |
Economics professor at Columbia and the. Bestselling author. Thank you | :07:46. | :07:55. | |
for joining us. Do you see some connection between what has | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
happening in the global steel market, what we've heard about | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
happening in the global steel shipping, the price of oil, is it | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
just overcapacity that is the general theme here? Your story told | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
it just right. China has slowed down more than expected. It was going to | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
be the machine which would pool in commodities from all over the world, | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
commodity prices were very high just a few years ago, China has slowed | :08:24. | :08:34. | |
down significantly. Those prices have plummeted, not only oil but | :08:35. | :08:41. | |
metals as well. The shipping prices themselves. This is the China first | :08:42. | :08:54. | |
story, China is now slightly ahead or behind depending on whose numbers | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
you believe. You've got to be amazed, the capacity, we have more | :09:02. | :09:11. | |
than doubled it, the price has come down by 95% from the peak. Those are | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
extraordinary ructions in the global economy. It was expected that China | :09:19. | :09:29. | |
would continue to grow, it is growing depending on who you | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
believe, still growing but significantly less than believed. It | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
was not only the great machine pooling the commodities but also a | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
great exports engine as well. With all the optimism, money flowed into | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
China, pushed up the value of the currency, and the currency is now | :09:51. | :09:58. | |
overvalued, but instead of the market is pulling it down, China has | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
been resisting depreciation of the currency because they fear that | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
would create even more ruckus, though I believe it is part of what | :10:06. | :10:14. | |
is needed to keep China's exports growing. When you've got too much | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
stuff, the world should try and stoke up demand and find people to | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
buy it, then everybody lives happily ever after. It feels like for the | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
last 20 years we've been trying to get global demand up and have not | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
been able to do it sustainably. I think you said it quite properly, we | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
have a lot of capacity, good capacity to build a lot of things | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
that we would like, and infrastructure and consumer goods, | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
people have needs, it is a shame for these factories to lie empty. The | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
question is how that demand is to be manifested. The usual way that has | :10:59. | :11:08. | |
been attempted is through trying to boost consumption spending, but | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
consumers do not want to spend so much, they want to save, and what I | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
believe we need to do more is boost investment spending. Investment | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
spending in countries which desperately need infrastructure. | :11:26. | :11:35. | |
Here we have the great capacity to build exactly those urgent needs, | :11:36. | :11:44. | |
but those needs require government cooperation, financing systems, and | :11:45. | :11:55. | |
the government have not taken the time to build the public investment | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
which would be vitally used by the world and keep demand high. That is | :12:00. | :12:06. | |
an alternative way of spending money in those infrastructure investments. | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
Reflect on the problem for savers. It feels to a lot of elderly people | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
who don't have mortgages and have money in the bank that for the best | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
part of the last 15 years they've been earning very little on their | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
investments. It feels like there is virtually no way you can invest. | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
You're certainly not going to be investing in building ships or | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
manufacturing. What is going on for savers? Why has it been so hard? An | :12:34. | :12:41. | |
excellent question. The big long-term saving goes through | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
pension funds and insurance funds. Ironically that has then been put | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
into the casino marketplace in short-term investments, trying to | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
time the market and in the market, whereas if our pension funds and | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
insurance funds which are long-term savings, we are investing in | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
long-term infrastructure worldwide, whether it is in the ports or the | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
power generation, the clean energy that we vitally need, then there | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
would be a good match of the long-term saving needs and | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
investments that would be the counterpart. But many investors have | :13:21. | :13:28. | |
noticed in the last few years that investment has become a short-term | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
game and we don't yet have what in the jargon is called the acid class | :13:32. | :13:40. | |
of infrastructure, which is the proper use of this long-term saving. | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
How worried are you at the moment? It feels like it's been a very | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
gloomy year. A lot of people talking about financial problems and global | :13:50. | :13:57. | |
implosions. How worried are you? You've got to be a bit nervous. | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
We've lost about $5 trillion of market capitalisation in recent | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
weeks with the stock market decline. But this is still relatively small | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
compared to the size of the world economy. The problem is if a panic | :14:13. | :14:19. | |
broke out as happened in Thailand in 1997 or after the Lehman Brothers | :14:20. | :14:29. | |
failure in 2008. If we fail to keep liquidity and see the market seizing | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
up then we have serious trouble. If there are big mistakes in this shaky | :14:33. | :14:39. | |
period it could turn worse, but so far we have the means to avoid any | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
serious downturn as long as we are vigilant and keeping liquidity in | :14:47. | :14:48. | |
the market place. Poland - once seen as one of the big | :14:49. | :14:50. | |
achievements of the EU, with its transition to democracy | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
and strongly renovated economy - finds itself in the naughty corner | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
of the EU at the moment. It elected a populist socially | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
conservative government back in October, one that is giving | :15:02. | :15:03. | |
a prolonged kick up the backside But that is not to the taste | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
of the EU establishment which is questioning | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
whether the new Polish government The issue was debated | :15:11. | :15:12. | |
in the European Parliament today. One MEP said the Polish government | :15:13. | :15:21. | |
represented the "Putinisation The atmosphere in Poland | :15:22. | :15:23. | |
is shifting fast. For the first time since the end | :15:24. | :15:43. | |
of communism, a democratically elected government has | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
a majority and is busy implementing its own brand | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
of Christian conservative You don't really know where this | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
politics is going to. Everything happened so fast | :15:53. | :16:02. | |
and it is suddenly a different For several decades Poland has | :16:03. | :16:04. | |
been the poster nation But its new government has set it | :16:05. | :16:14. | |
on a course that now sees it accused of eroding the progress made | :16:15. | :16:23. | |
here over the last 25 years. It has only been in power for two | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
months, but already the ruling Law and Justice party here has | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
made some pretty big It has pushed through reforms | :16:31. | :16:32. | |
to increase its influence over It has sacked managers | :16:33. | :16:41. | |
and reporters at And it has boosted | :16:42. | :16:44. | |
surveillance rights For the Law and Justice party this | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
is about leaving behind what they depict as | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
the liberal, corrupt elites they say ruled | :16:55. | :16:55. | |
Poland for too long. But tens of thousands don't buy that | :16:56. | :17:40. | |
and have taken to the streets to protest, many for the first time | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
since the collapse of communism. As a flat in central | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
Warsaw members of the committee for the defence | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
of democracy, created just a week after the new government | :17:54. | :17:55. | |
was sworn in, The Standard and Poor | :17:56. | :17:57. | |
rating agency downgraded Poland's credit rating on Friday | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
saying Law and Justice has weakened the independence | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
of key institutions. I'm afraid that the | :18:08. | :18:08. | |
good changes in our economy for the past 25 | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
years could be reversed because the ratings go down | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
and the economy could also Germany is being framed by the right | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
wing media as the enemy to this Angela Merkel recast, | :18:23. | :18:33. | |
not for the first In the offices of an internet | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
magazine I wanted to know whether the independent Polish | :18:38. | :18:45. | |
media is worried the government might try and exert | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
influence over them next. I hope it is not going to happen | :18:50. | :18:51. | |
because that is the worst-case I mean if politicians | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
would like to influence the content of our magazines, | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
that is the end of the free-speech, I hope that it is not | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
going to happen. We fear it as the whole | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
of civic society, that something could happen | :19:07. | :19:14. | |
in the future. Because you don't really know | :19:15. | :19:16. | |
where this politics is going to. Of springing bills on Parliament | :19:17. | :19:26. | |
and holding late-night In just two days | :19:27. | :19:28. | |
between Christmas and the New Year the country's | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
media laws were amended. And now the government has | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
the power to dismiss and appoint the management | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
of all the state broadcasters. One of Poland's | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
best-known TV presenters lost his job after his channel | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
TVP got a new boss. In Poland criticising the government | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
to foreigners has been It is amazing to us that | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
for so many people abroad, for so many people in | :19:59. | :20:07. | |
Western European countries, it is interesting | :20:08. | :20:09. | |
what is going on in But I really do believe | :20:10. | :20:11. | |
that it is on us to do our job. It is on us to build a successful | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
country for every citizen of Poland. You have been sacked, | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
how can you do your today defending her country's | :20:22. | :20:23. | |
actions against accusations that they contravene | :20:24. | :20:35. | |
the liberal values The European Commission | :20:36. | :20:36. | |
is investigating. But plenty say that Poland | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
is modelling itself To toe the line on | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
migrants, for example. That it is flexing its muscles | :20:43. | :20:58. | |
as part of an increasingly illiberal Some of those who oppose the new | :20:59. | :21:28. | |
government came themselves in part for what has happened. -- blame. | :21:29. | :22:05. | |
Poland is the sixth largest economy in the queue. It could have its | :22:06. | :22:13. | |
voting rights suspended if its government is found wanting. But in | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
reality it is unlikely there is a will to pick a serious fight with | :22:19. | :22:20. | |
the country that is so important to the union. | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
On Thursday, at 10 am in Court 73 at the Royal Courts of Justice, | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
the former high court judge Sir Robert Owen | :22:29. | :22:30. | |
He will outline the conclusion of the 18 month inquiry he's been | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
heading into the death of Alexander Litvinenko | :22:35. | :22:36. | |
He seems likely to conclude that some Russians were involved. | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
I hope you were sitting down when I broke that to you. | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
Now President Putin may be about as popular as Sepp Blatter | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
in this country, but here's the thing: at the moment, | :22:50. | :22:51. | |
we kind of want to be nice to him - as he could be helpful when it | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
Here's David Grossman on the awkward diplomacy of the Litvinenko inquiry. | :22:56. | :23:02. | |
The Russian Embassy in London's website puts the British-Russian | :23:03. | :23:13. | |
In recent years, our political relationship has been | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
characterised by instability and volatility, it says. | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
By abrupt changes, from relatively good, to overt hostility. | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
It is certainly not a normal relationship at the moment | :23:28. | :23:29. | |
and that is partly as a reaction to this kind of misbehaviour by Russia. | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
The murder of Alexander Litvinenko, a British citizen in London, | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
in November 2006, was viewed in Whitehall as nothing short | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
On Thursday the enquiry into his death will report. | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
The only real question about its findings is how far up | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
the Russian state it will say the order to kill was taken. | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
But so much has happened in the interim. | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
The Ukraine crisis of 2014, the shooting down of MH17 with 290 | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
It was Britain that led the way demanding sanctions. | :24:03. | :24:11. | |
We have to address the completely unacceptable | :24:12. | :24:13. | |
situation of having Russian troops on Ukrainian soil. | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
But then in September of last year, Russia began bombing | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
Shortly after, in December, Britain too engaged in military | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
Putting us and the Russians at least notionally on the same side. | :24:27. | :24:34. | |
Which is why the report into the death of Alexander | :24:35. | :24:36. | |
Litvinenko could not come at a more delicate time. | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
The enquiry has heard extensive evidence of Russian | :24:41. | :24:42. | |
Lawyers for Mr Litvinenko's widow called his murder | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
The evidence has demonstrated step by | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
painstaking step that Putin and his personal cabal are directly | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
That they're willing to murder those who | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
And that Mr Litvinenko was murdered for that | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
I think if the finding of this inquest is that this murder | :25:11. | :25:18. | |
was conducted at the behest of the Russian state, | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
or that that is where the evidence most strongly points, | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
the ramifications for the Russian state will be exceptionally serious. | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
This is a hearing which has been conducted in London, | :25:31. | :25:40. | |
under the well recognised standards of British justice, | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
which are still widely admired around the world. | :25:43. | :25:44. | |
I think a finding of that sort would have real | :25:45. | :25:46. | |
credibility and I think it would do real damage to the Russian state. | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
But is a full-scale diplomatic row right now likely, | :25:51. | :25:52. | |
given that it suits neither ourselves nor the Russians? | :25:53. | :25:54. | |
We have serious common interests with the Russians in fighting | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
They have a real problem, particularly in southern Russia, | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
and one only has to think there are perhaps 400 Britons | :26:04. | :26:11. | |
or maybe more still fighting for ISIS in Syria and there are many | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
more times that of Chechens, for example, | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
who are also fighting alongside them. | :26:19. | :26:19. | |
That is British and Russian citizens fighting against the interests | :26:20. | :26:21. | |
So there is clearly a common interest. | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
And that gives us a common interest in bringing the Syrian conflict | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
to an end so that we can turn our attention to defeating | :26:29. | :26:30. | |
But for Russia the incentive for better | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
Since the start of the Ukraine crisis in 2014 the price of oil has | :26:35. | :26:42. | |
It is now well below the point at which experts say Russia can pay | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
Mr Putin urgently needs Western sanctions lifted. | :26:47. | :26:54. | |
One only has to look at Putin's speeches to see | :26:55. | :26:56. | |
that it is beginning to sink in that Russia is facing a really serious | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
While Putin did gain in the short run from the nationalist outburst | :27:01. | :27:14. | |
that accompanied the annexation of Crimea, | :27:15. | :27:15. | |
Russian people can't live off, can't eat, nationalism. | :27:16. | :27:17. | |
They need something more substantial. | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
But for all the real politique, there is also British | :27:24. | :27:25. | |
domestic politics to consider as well. | :27:26. | :27:26. | |
Pressure on Mr Cameron to take a publicly tough line. | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
For us it would seem to be very simple. | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
If people are implicated and named in this report, | :27:35. | :27:36. | |
which they absolutely should be, and I expect them to be, | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
then there should be an immediate EU wide travel ban, | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
there should be an asset freeze, and we should demonstrate not just | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
to Putin but to anybody else around the world | :27:49. | :27:50. | |
we will not accept that kind of breach of our sovereignty. | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
That kind of outrageous act here on our soil. | :27:55. | :27:56. | |
And so the challenge for the British Government | :27:57. | :27:58. | |
is to balance outrage at what might prove to be Russian state | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
murder in London with the need to maintain | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
A fragile but important relationship with Vladimir Putin. And how should | :28:05. | :28:14. | |
we respond to the enquiry? Here to discuss the impact this may | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
have on Anglo-Russian relations are Bill Browder, a former investor | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
in Russia who fell out with President Putin and has been | :28:22. | :28:23. | |
campaigning against corruption since his lawyer died in police | :28:24. | :28:25. | |
custody, and the academic and author Good evening. Bill, do you think | :28:26. | :28:38. | |
that we can it important diplomatic issues like Syria affect our | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
response to an enquiry that the Banco enquiry? -- like the | :28:46. | :28:53. | |
Litvinenko enquiry? First we have a situation where there is an active | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
nuclear terrorism on British soil. Not only was Litvinenko killed at | :28:59. | :29:06. | |
this radioactivity was at Arsenal Stadium, in Grosvenor Square, at a | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
restaurant. You cannot allow Russians to be going around settling | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
their scores and doing assassinations and putting British | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
personal lives at risk. And so first and foremost, is public safety and | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
that demands that there is a sharp response to this otherwise the | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
Russians will carry on doing it and they do carry on doing it. This is | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
not the only murder on British soil or attempted murder of Russians | :29:33. | :29:34. | |
settling scores. Tell us what you would do because we | :29:35. | :29:45. | |
already have sanctions. What extra would you do give and we cannot | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
conflict the individuals who might have done it? Good question. | :29:49. | :30:00. | |
Everybody in the UK thinks they can keep their dirty money safe and put | :30:01. | :30:12. | |
themselves in London. We can take away their ability to travel and | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
freeze their assets. The United States government did just that and | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
I can tell you that truly pierced the imperviousness of Russia. It | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
touched their Achilles heel. This is what they care about. It would not | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
affect the average Russian but the people at the top? It is like one of | :30:35. | :30:43. | |
these targeted cancer drugs, it does not kill the patient. You make a | :30:44. | :30:51. | |
list of the people involved in this crime and you freeze their assets | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
and ban their visas. It does not touch the Russian people. It touches | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
the regime and it shows they are serious. We heard Tim Farrand say it | :31:01. | :31:10. | |
is quite simple. If the crime is committed, action must be taken. Is | :31:11. | :31:18. | |
it that simple? Let's think back to when their were IRA people on the | :31:19. | :31:28. | |
run in America. We have precedents. We have the problem that in reality | :31:29. | :31:36. | |
at the moment, many Russians, the great majority, think they are | :31:37. | :31:48. | |
facing economic warfare. Ordinary Russians say the sanctions do hit | :31:49. | :31:56. | |
and that is creating a mood in Russia that is anti-Western. One of | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
the reasons for the collapse of communism is nobody believed the | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
antique Western -- the anti-Western rhetoric. Now, ironically, | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
antique Western -- the anti-Western seen as being the fault of the West. | :32:12. | :32:21. | |
The public opinion creates a problem. You saw in Poland, a party | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
can win an election on an anti-Western ticket. What about | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
Syria? We might want to cooperate with Vladimir Putin on Monday and | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
punish him on Thursday. Does that complicated? The real threat comes | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
not from people who are effectively banned from Britain but from | :32:41. | :32:49. | |
potential terrorists operating. They have links with people who the | :32:50. | :32:57. | |
Russians fear. Ironically, whatever problems we have with Russia we also | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
have possible advantages of cooperation. We did cooperate with | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
Stalin in the Second World War. Sometimes the moral simplicity of | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
deciding we are good and the other side is bad, there are grey areas. | :33:14. | :33:22. | |
Would you still advocate if I told you on Monday we will be asking | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
Vladimir Putin for favours and what you are proposing will make that | :33:27. | :33:28. | |
more difficult and we don't want to prolong the Syrian war, a bigger | :33:29. | :33:40. | |
thing than worrying about that? Let's look at what we are asking | :33:41. | :33:48. | |
Russia for. At the moment Russia have interfered in Syria and started | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
bombing 90% targets that are not Isis. They are basically going after | :33:55. | :34:05. | |
allies, bombing civilians and creating a larger refugee crisis. I | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
don't believe we are in a situation where we are working with Russia, | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
they are operating blackmail in order to negotiate down Ukrainian | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
sanctions and to staff in these types of issues for when they commit | :34:23. | :34:24. | |
murders and do another terrible things. Our approach needs to be | :34:25. | :34:31. | |
firm because Russia laughs at us when we tiptoe around them begging | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
them for favours. This is a tyrant. Vladimir Putin is not a man who can | :34:36. | :34:45. | |
be reasoned with or begged. Quick last one from you. Whether we like | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
it or not, Russia has a role to play. Have we any way of stopping | :34:52. | :34:58. | |
it? What can we do to make the Russians compromise? We might get | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
something we would otherwise not get and unfortunately that is what | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
diplomacy is about. Sometimes, swallowing your pride, I'm afraid | :35:07. | :35:13. | |
megaphone diplomacy has not worked, maybe we could try something | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
different and we could get something more in tune with the moral stance. | :35:17. | :35:18. | |
Thank you. The US is abuzz tonight | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
with the news that Sarah Palin is about to endorse Donald Trump's | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
bid for the republican presidential We are joined from by New York Times | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
journalist Josh Barro. Good evening to you. Let's think | :35:28. | :35:53. | |
about the similarities between them. He is a metropolitan New York, they | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
are not entirely on the same wing of Conservative thinking. I think they | :35:59. | :36:08. | |
are closer together than they look initially. Sarah Palin ran on a | :36:09. | :36:15. | |
platform of taxing oil companies more. What they represent is | :36:16. | :36:23. | |
conservatism not really being about small government and low tax. They | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
had a sense that the country is moving in the wrong direction. They | :36:28. | :36:39. | |
both reflect that. This is exasperating for a lot of | :36:40. | :36:41. | |
professional conservatives who say these are not actually about small | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
government philosophies but it aligns with what voters want. They | :36:46. | :36:53. | |
are both reality show stars to some extent. They seem to have very good | :36:54. | :37:04. | |
communication skills. They do. They tap into the frustration. The phrase | :37:05. | :37:12. | |
it in different ways. You talk about the difference between real America | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
and not real America. Donald Trump is from Manhattan. He does talk | :37:16. | :37:23. | |
about how political correctness is terrible. They both signal the | :37:24. | :37:31. | |
attitudes of the mostly white middle America. We are way ahead of Donald | :37:32. | :37:43. | |
Trump King is a running mate. Is the expectation that something is going | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
on here? I doubt that, for a few reasons. We've seen in Sarah Palin's | :37:51. | :37:58. | |
career, G has a reputation for not being very dependable. She wants to | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
be a public figure, give speeches, write books and get paid for that. I | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
don't think she wants to go back into government and I don't think | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
Donald Trump would find her to be an asset. I think she will be useful in | :38:13. | :38:22. | |
Iowa. It would hardly be a balanced ticket. Donald Trump would want a | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
detail person. She hardly qualifies as that. The Republican | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
establishment, they must have their head in their hands. All the | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
momentum is around this chap. Every two weeks another story. It is | :38:37. | :38:45. | |
complicated. They are very frustrated by it. People thought he | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
was a joke when he announced. On the other hand, the problem for the | :38:50. | :38:56. | |
establishment is the alternative, Ted Cruz. People are puzzling over | :38:57. | :39:03. | |
why they don't unload everything at Donald Trump and it is partly | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
because if they bring him down, Ted Cruz will be the beneficiary and for | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
a lot of the establishment he is seen as even worse because Donald | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
Trump is totally unique. There would be nobody like him waiting in the | :39:19. | :39:26. | |
wings. It would be an intermission and they could come back and do what | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
they did before whereas if Ted Cruz wins he can take over the party. | :39:30. | :39:37. | |
They are more scared of that. A lot of people would rather have him as | :39:38. | :39:44. | |
the nominee. That's why you seen part of this conversation about | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
whether he is eligible, Ted Cruz, because he was born in Canada. This | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
is normally a fringe idea but because people hate Ted Cruz so | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
much, people like John McCain are saying this is a serious issue, it | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
reflects the fact that the establishment is more petrified of | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
Ted Cruz than Donald Trump. You've got literally five words, is he | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
going to be the candidate? I think he's the most likely person. I would | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
not bet my life on it but I would pick him over the field. Thank you. | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
There is a very story -- important story in the Financial Times | :40:20. | :40:35. | |
suggesting Brussels is proposing a change to remove the arrangement by | :40:36. | :40:42. | |
which the first country into which an asylum seeker lands is the | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
country which needs to take responsibility. David Grossman is | :40:49. | :40:56. | |
with me. Fill us in on the details. It is not big news that this | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
agreement is not working. We've seen massive flows of asylum seekers | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
across Europe and Angela Merkel said they would no longer be sent back to | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
places like Greece or Italy but they've not said what it will be | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
replaced with and that will be crucial in the context in the run-up | :41:15. | :41:21. | |
to the referendum on whether we will stay in the EU or not. Britain has | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
an opt out on migration but we opted in to Dublin because it worked for | :41:27. | :41:28. | |
us. What the new rules would be in to Dublin because it worked for | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
not clear in to Dublin because it worked for | :41:32. | :41:37. | |
EU is already trying to share the quarter and it is not working at | :41:38. | :41:45. | |
all. Migrants sitting in Calais, if there is no Dublin it is not obvious | :41:46. | :41:52. | |
who's problem it is. Indeed, the system which replaces it will be | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
crucial but how it can coexist with Schengen is very difficult to | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
crucial but how it can coexist with Thank you. That is all we have time | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
for. I will be back here tomorrow. Have a good | :42:06. | :42:09. |