28/01/2016 Newsnight


28/01/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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The fear gripping women in the Americas

:00:00.:00:07.

about the Zika virus and birth defects.

:00:08.:00:11.

The possible links, only recently suspected,

:00:12.:00:13.

have rapidly changed the risk profile of Zika

:00:14.:00:16.

from a mild threat to one of alarming proportions.

:00:17.:00:22.

We have an exclusive interview with the woman

:00:23.:00:24.

taking on the Brazillian government to overturn the anti-abortion law.

:00:25.:00:30.

Should the UK put a stop to Saudi arms sales

:00:31.:00:33.

after the damning UN report on civilian casualties in Yemen?

:00:34.:00:37.

Systematic and widespread violations of the laws of war have taken place,

:00:38.:00:41.

committed by both sides to this conflict,

:00:42.:00:42.

They found that 119 strikes by the Saudis have breached

:00:43.:00:48.

international humanitarian law, that is a very damning finding.

:00:49.:00:51.

I'll be asking the Saudi ambassador to the UN

:00:52.:00:54.

why Saudi planes are attacking non-military targets.

:00:55.:01:00.

All that striving and idealism and hope and progress

:01:01.:01:10.

and science and art and conscience, and it all ends like this,

:01:11.:01:14.

And in an exclusive television interview,

:01:15.:01:15.

Julian Barnes talks about heroes, cowards and Vladimir Putin

:01:16.:01:18.

on the day his novel about Shostokovich is published.

:01:19.:01:28.

An emergency World Health Organisation meeting today in Geneva

:01:29.:01:32.

has declared that the mosquito-borne Zika virus, linked to a surge

:01:33.:01:38.

of a birth defect called microcephaly in the Americas,

:01:39.:01:40.

has become a threat of alarming proportions.

:01:41.:01:47.

A causal relationship between Zika virus infection

:01:48.:01:50.

and birth malformations and neurological syndromes

:01:51.:01:53.

has not yet been established - this is a very important point.

:01:54.:01:56.

The possible links, only recently suspected,

:01:57.:02:03.

have rapidly changed the risk profile of Zika

:02:04.:02:08.

from a mild threat to one of alarming proportions.

:02:09.:02:12.

The increased incidence of microcephaly

:02:13.:02:14.

as it places a heartbreaking burden on families and communities.

:02:15.:02:24.

nor is there a vaccine to protect against it,

:02:25.:02:29.

and the governments of some South American countries

:02:30.:02:31.

are advising women not to get pregnant.

:02:32.:02:33.

This outbreak, which began in Brazil, has spread to 20 countries,

:02:34.:02:36.

and in all the countries of South and Central America,

:02:37.:02:39.

there are stringent anti-abortion laws,

:02:40.:02:42.

a fact which is leading some women to call for a change in the law.

:02:43.:02:45.

by human-rights campaigner and lawyer Debora Deniz.

:02:46.:02:53.

Good evening to you. Good evening. How fearful are women in Brazil and

:02:54.:03:04.

in the Americas more general about Zika? We have to name who are these

:03:05.:03:14.

women. Basically, they are poor women from two cities and the

:03:15.:03:18.

Brazilian north-east. It is not, generally speaking, women in

:03:19.:03:22.

general. They have social class, they have colour. So we talk about

:03:23.:03:28.

black women. Of course, there is tremendous fear of getting pregnant,

:03:29.:03:32.

of knowing what will happen after the delivery. What we have at this

:03:33.:03:39.

moment in this country is a group of women who is in fear of getting

:03:40.:03:45.

pregnant, and not knowing what will happen during the pregnancy. And

:03:46.:03:52.

what women, a poor woman who is pregnant, what does she do if she

:03:53.:03:56.

has the virus? What help does she get? What is open to her? In fact,

:03:57.:04:03.

in Brazil, abortion is a crime, so if a woman performs and macro

:04:04.:04:07.

abortion, she goes to the jail. We have only two exceptions, to save a

:04:08.:04:14.

woman's life and in the case of rape. A recent decision at the

:04:15.:04:22.

Brazilian Supreme Court authorises abortion in cases of anencephaly,

:04:23.:04:32.

another foetal malformation which is incompatible with life. In cases of

:04:33.:04:37.

microcephaly, women have to be pregnant, but it is important to

:04:38.:04:41.

remember that we have a social class split in Brazil, so when we talk

:04:42.:04:44.

about abortion, writes in general, we have to remember that wealthy

:04:45.:04:53.

women will access safe and illegal but safe abortion, and poor women

:04:54.:05:00.

will go to the illegal market or be pregnant. So tell me, what is the

:05:01.:05:05.

challenge were making to the Supreme Court? At this moment, we are

:05:06.:05:12.

planning to propose a case to the Brazilian Supreme Court. We have

:05:13.:05:19.

vast experience in the case of anencephaly and the one who was in

:05:20.:05:23.

the leading group to propose the case, and we won in 2012, and we are

:05:24.:05:31.

naming this case as women's rights case, and it is basically, it has

:05:32.:05:37.

three parts. The first one is we have a Minister of health who said

:05:38.:05:43.

that we have lost the fight against the mosquito. We would like to tell

:05:44.:05:52.

him that we have to win the fight against the mosquito. Before you

:05:53.:05:56.

tell me about the others, I want to ask you about the criticism being

:05:57.:06:00.

levelled, that you are using the Zika virus and the fear about it to

:06:01.:06:05.

change the abortion laws, that this is a bigger women's rights issue

:06:06.:06:14.

right now. Yes, the case is not only to change the Brazilian legislation

:06:15.:06:18.

on abortion. As I said, it is a women's rights case. Because we have

:06:19.:06:22.

to fight against the mosquito, but we have to offer a comprehensive

:06:23.:06:27.

sexual and reproductive health care to women. We live in a country where

:06:28.:06:34.

poor women do not have access to contraceptives, to have the early

:06:35.:06:38.

diagnosis of microcephaly, and abortion is only one piece of this.

:06:39.:06:44.

And indeed with microcephaly, and the way that ejection is made, it

:06:45.:06:51.

can sometimes be with a very late ultrasound in the eighth month of

:06:52.:06:55.

pregnancy, when an abortion is not an option. I know, but I think that

:06:56.:07:04.

we are moving ahead, and the moment that we have now, we can have access

:07:05.:07:10.

to diagnosis in an early moment of pregnancy. If women have full access

:07:11.:07:16.

to prenatal care. The problem in this country is even the diagnosis

:07:17.:07:21.

the aid not have, so I think that you are asking me something to the

:07:22.:07:26.

public powers, so it is probably a second moment after we will have the

:07:27.:07:30.

case, and if we change the situation in this country. But this is not

:07:31.:07:38.

only an abortion case, the way that we are planning it. It is more than

:07:39.:07:42.

that. It is a women's rights case. There is a third part. We have, at

:07:43.:07:50.

this moment, as the Minister of Help said, a new generation of children

:07:51.:07:57.

with microcephaly. We need a strong welfare state to care for them, to

:07:58.:08:02.

take care of them. Because many women will want to continue their

:08:03.:08:08.

pregnancy and have a child, however damaged that child might be, because

:08:09.:08:12.

they want that child, so presumably the welfare care is one of the most

:08:13.:08:18.

important elements of this. Of course, but we have to consider all

:08:19.:08:23.

the possibilities. We have to fight against the mosquito, we have to

:08:24.:08:27.

protect women's rights. How big a moment could this be for Brazil, do

:08:28.:08:34.

you think? Sorry? How big a moment could this be for Brazil, do you

:08:35.:08:45.

think? Yeah. You know, this is kind of... We are living and a

:08:46.:08:52.

conservative national congress, and this kind of scandal and corruption

:08:53.:08:58.

that we are facing, and this is a case to reframe what we need for

:08:59.:09:05.

public health needs. So I am not ignoring that we have a community of

:09:06.:09:12.

disability rights that has to be with us in a case like this. Thank

:09:13.:09:19.

you. But my point is that... Oh. I am afraid we have to ended there,

:09:20.:09:23.

Debora Deniz, thank you for joining us from Brasilia.

:09:24.:09:25.

At Westminster today, the Shadow Foreign Secretary

:09:26.:09:27.

called on the Government immediately to suspend all arms sales

:09:28.:09:29.

to Saudi Arabia following the UN report on Yemen by a panel

:09:30.:09:34.

on civilian targets in violation of international humanitarian law.

:09:35.:09:39.

It said that 60%, more than 2,500 civilian deaths and injuries,

:09:40.:09:42.

What is not clear is whether any British supplied weaponry,

:09:43.:09:48.

airplanes or bombs, were used in these attacks.

:09:49.:09:54.

Here's our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban.

:09:55.:09:56.

The Saudi-led coalition struck targets around Yemen again

:09:57.:10:01.

yesterday, part of the campaign that began ten months ago.

:10:02.:10:05.

As it has gone on, the humanitarian situation has worsened

:10:06.:10:08.

and allegations been made of deliberate targeting

:10:09.:10:11.

The leaked report from a UN fact-finding mission has now set out

:10:12.:10:18.

allegations that air strikes have breached humanitarian law.

:10:19.:10:23.

because it found that systematic and widespread violations

:10:24.:10:27.

of the laws of war have taken place, committed by both sides

:10:28.:10:30.

to this conflict, including the Saudi-led coalition.

:10:31.:10:32.

They found that 119 strikes by the Saudis

:10:33.:10:34.

have breached international humanitarian law.

:10:35.:10:36.

Because they were targeted badly or...?

:10:37.:10:42.

Well, the principles of international humanitarian law

:10:43.:10:44.

require the warring parties to distinguish

:10:45.:10:45.

between military targets and civilian objects.

:10:46.:10:49.

We found that schools and mosques and markets and residential areas

:10:50.:10:52.

have been hit by the Saudi-led coalition,

:10:53.:10:54.

The report has made the British Government's position trickier.

:10:55.:10:59.

Having long sold Saudi Arabia combat aircraft and bombs,

:11:00.:11:02.

Britain is now finding that lucrative relationship under fire.

:11:03.:11:08.

Given the detail of the UN panel's report and the extreme seriousness

:11:09.:11:12.

of its findings, will the Government now suspend arms sales

:11:13.:11:15.

to Saudi Arabia until that investigation concludes?

:11:16.:11:19.

Mr Speaker, this is about whether the Government

:11:20.:11:22.

is implementing its own arms-control rules.

:11:23.:11:27.

has been to question the accuracy of that latest UN report.

:11:28.:11:35.

The people who wrote this report didn't go there.

:11:36.:11:38.

They are basing this on satellite technology.

:11:39.:11:41.

That does not mean to say that we dismiss it at all,

:11:42.:11:44.

And I commit myself to sit down with the Saudi Arabians

:11:45.:11:49.

to make sure that we go through this with a fine-tooth comb.

:11:50.:11:53.

But as the Foreign Secretary made clear to Newsnight,

:11:54.:11:57.

the UK is now paying close attention to these allegations.

:11:58.:12:01.

The Saudis deny that there have been any breaches

:12:02.:12:03.

Obviously, that denial alone is not enough,

:12:04.:12:08.

we need to see proper investigations.

:12:09.:12:11.

We need to work with the Saudis to establish

:12:12.:12:13.

that international humanitarian law has been complied with.

:12:14.:12:18.

The pressure group Campaign Against The Arms Trade

:12:19.:12:21.

is now preparing a legal challenge to the British

:12:22.:12:26.

Government's export licences for weapons to Saudi Arabia.

:12:27.:12:30.

The UK Government has failed to make sufficient inquiries as to the basis

:12:31.:12:33.

for these Saudi assurances to enable it lawfully to conclude that,

:12:34.:12:37.

notwithstanding the evidence to the contrary,

:12:38.:12:40.

there is not a clear risk that military equipment

:12:41.:12:45.

may be used in violations of international humanitarian law.

:12:46.:12:49.

The Yemeni conflict has claimed thousands of lives

:12:50.:12:52.

people like these amputees at a makeshift rehabilitation centre.

:12:53.:13:00.

The UN also accuses Houthi rebels of breaching humanitarian law,

:13:01.:13:04.

may be used in violations of international humanitarian law.

:13:05.:13:10.

and in fighting against those irregulars

:13:11.:13:13.

the Saudis can claim the backing of the UN resolution.

:13:14.:13:15.

But however much they say right is on their side,

:13:16.:13:18.

the issue of civilian casualties is becoming a big problem for them

:13:19.:13:20.

Earlier, I spoke to Ambassador Abdallah bin Yahya Al-Moallimi,

:13:21.:13:26.

the Saudi representative to the United Nations.

:13:27.:13:33.

I began by asking him whether he had admitted the charge in the reports

:13:34.:13:41.

that there had been 119 Saudi coalition air strikes in violation

:13:42.:13:44.

of humanitarian law. We deny that we have had any raids aimed at anything

:13:45.:13:54.

but military targets of the Houthis and the forces of the former

:13:55.:13:59.

president. We do not know the source of the information that was provided

:14:00.:14:07.

in the report. We believe that these sources have been mostly Houthi

:14:08.:14:10.

related propaganda individuals and agencies. We do not think that the

:14:11.:14:17.

team had sufficient presence on the ground to be able to document that.

:14:18.:14:23.

These strikes included refugee camps, weddings, two hospitals,

:14:24.:14:31.

water bottling plant, Oxfam food warehouse. If they were targets then

:14:32.:14:40.

your bombs were aimed very badly. No, the wedding is proven to be an

:14:41.:14:47.

erroneous report. It was a gathering of forces loyal to the president.

:14:48.:14:59.

The Medecins Sans Frontieres, one of them we acknowledged was a mistake

:15:00.:15:04.

and we spoke with them. Look, mistakes do happen. But the extent

:15:05.:15:11.

of these mistakes is not as wide as it has been reported. But the point

:15:12.:15:18.

is that 60% of civilian deaths, according to this report, 2682

:15:19.:15:23.

people were from air launched explosives by the coalition. Is that

:15:24.:15:30.

an acceptable number? No, it is not, and it is a hugely overestimated

:15:31.:15:35.

number. We think that the vast majority of the civilian casualties

:15:36.:15:38.

have been the result of arbitrary artillery shelling is by the

:15:39.:15:45.

Houthis. So a bottling plant, Oxfam food warehouse, a refugee camp, are

:15:46.:15:53.

you seriously suggesting that Houthis were using an Oxfam food

:15:54.:16:02.

warehouse to house their troops? Probably not. I'm not particularly

:16:03.:16:05.

familiar with the Oxfam food warehouse. But I'm certainly used

:16:06.:16:11.

the bottling plant. I'm certain that what was described as a wedding

:16:12.:16:15.

gathering was nothing but a gathering of military troops, and

:16:16.:16:19.

many others. Can you guarantee that none of the civilian deaths in Yemen

:16:20.:16:23.

were as a result of the use of British weaponry? I can guarantee

:16:24.:16:29.

that all the weaponry that are in possession of the Saudi Armed Forces

:16:30.:16:33.

and the Armed Forces of the coalition are used to target

:16:34.:16:37.

military targets, and are used in conformity with international

:16:38.:16:43.

humanitarian law. Why did you want the resolution for an independent

:16:44.:16:45.

investigation into what was happening with civilian deaths in

:16:46.:16:50.

Yemen to be shelved? We supported an alternative resolution that was

:16:51.:16:56.

presented and suggested by the veggie debate government of Yemen.

:16:57.:17:00.

That government itself is accused of war crimes. What have you got to

:17:01.:17:03.

lose with an independent investigation? Surely that's what's

:17:04.:17:08.

needed, if indeed it is a possibility that 60% of civilian

:17:09.:17:11.

deaths are caused by explosives from the air? We can't work based on

:17:12.:17:18.

assumptions that are made on an arbitrary basis. It is a UN

:17:19.:17:26.

investigation. No, it is not a UN investigation. It is a report that

:17:27.:17:29.

was collected outside of a UN mandate and it was based on

:17:30.:17:34.

information provided by the Houthis in most cases. Let me just turn to

:17:35.:17:41.

another aspect of this. There are at least six British military advisers

:17:42.:17:45.

in the command and control centre for the coalition, what do they do?

:17:46.:17:49.

I do not know, I am not willing to talk about the command and control

:17:50.:17:53.

centre or what the military personnel do there. Would you accept

:17:54.:17:59.

that these British military trainers would be looking to make sure no

:18:00.:18:03.

British weaponry was used in anyway that could kill or maim civilians?

:18:04.:18:08.

No, I don't think I would expect them to be doing that, that is the

:18:09.:18:12.

responsibility of the Saudi Armed Forces. As far as we are concerned

:18:13.:18:17.

it does not and whether they are British supplied, American supplied,

:18:18.:18:21.

once they are in our possession they are Saudi weapons and weapons of the

:18:22.:18:27.

coalition. And we intend to use them as responsibly as we possibly can

:18:28.:18:31.

and in full conformity with international laws and regulations.

:18:32.:18:37.

If the British military advisers advised you not to hit a certain

:18:38.:18:42.

target, would the Saudis comply with that? That's not of anybody's

:18:43.:18:49.

business other than the military leaders of the Saudi and coalition

:18:50.:18:53.

Armed Forces. The reason I'm asking this is because Philip Hammond,

:18:54.:18:58.

Foreign Secretary, came on Newsnight in September and called for proper

:18:59.:19:02.

investigations into Saudi air strikes in Yemen and he said that

:19:03.:19:08.

Saudi assurances of compliance with humanitarian law are not enough. I

:19:09.:19:12.

wonder what representations the British government have made to you

:19:13.:19:16.

following that. You would have to ask that question to Philip Hammond

:19:17.:19:19.

and the British government. Because if it is seen to be that coalition

:19:20.:19:24.

strikes are in violation of international humanitarian law, UK

:19:25.:19:29.

sales of arms to Saudi would have to hold if they have been found to be

:19:30.:19:33.

in breach of international law. And I wonder if there was a suspension

:19:34.:19:37.

of British arms sales, how the Saudis would respond. We conduct our

:19:38.:19:43.

activities with the utmost care and responsibility and we do not expect

:19:44.:19:46.

any such action to be taken by the UK Government, or to be required to

:19:47.:19:54.

start with. Ambassador, thank you very much indeed. Thank you.

:19:55.:19:57.

Last summer, Newsnight and BuzzFeed News started a run

:19:58.:19:59.

of reports on Kids Company, the celebrated youth-work charity,

:20:00.:20:02.

as it ran into trouble and collapsed.

:20:03.:20:06.

One of those reports, into allegations by former staff

:20:07.:20:11.

members that the charity failed to report sexual abuse and violence

:20:12.:20:14.

by clients of the charity, sparked a police investigation.

:20:15.:20:16.

Today, the police announced that they do not have sufficient

:20:17.:20:18.

In an interview with BBC News today, Ms Batmangeilidjh had this to say.

:20:19.:20:26.

They behaved incredibly honourably, and they kept boundaries,

:20:27.:20:34.

and they did their investigations based on fact.

:20:35.:20:40.

But the fact is, when a children's charity is accused of sexually

:20:41.:20:43.

abusing the children in its care, it's the kiss of death.

:20:44.:20:46.

Chris Cook, who has led on this story for Newsnight, is with us.

:20:47.:20:51.

Is this a clean bill of health now for Kids Company? If you talk to the

:20:52.:20:58.

former leaders they have always talked about how they thought these

:20:59.:21:02.

allegations were unfounded, even talked about some of them being

:21:03.:21:05.

malicious, and they see this as real vindication. In more neutral terms

:21:06.:21:10.

what has happened, Scotland Yard have been investigating for six

:21:11.:21:13.

months and they just don't have enough evidence to mount a

:21:14.:21:16.

prosecution. There are a couple of strands still going on, and it is

:21:17.:21:20.

worth keeping an eye on the Charity commission, looking at the financial

:21:21.:21:24.

side. It is worth a member in a lot of the allegations about Kids

:21:25.:21:28.

Company, particularly the ones we published, were about the misuse of

:21:29.:21:32.

funds, not illegal things but odd use of money. One thing from the

:21:33.:21:39.

video we saw, she talked about the charity being accused of abusing

:21:40.:21:42.

children in its care, I don't think anybody accuse them of that. The

:21:43.:21:45.

issue was they heard complaints about clients of theirs and they did

:21:46.:21:49.

not do enough with them, did not take them to the authorities. So

:21:50.:21:54.

where does that leave all of this? They are really not vindicated on a

:21:55.:21:59.

lot of things. This is very welcome news for the charity, but they have

:22:00.:22:03.

warranty had a report from the National Audit Office which

:22:04.:22:07.

questioned the use of ?40 million of public money. We have had a report

:22:08.:22:10.

from the Public Accounts Committee of MPs that said the government put

:22:11.:22:15.

money into what they said was a failed, expensive experiment. A new

:22:16.:22:19.

report is expected next Monday from another committee of MPs, the public

:22:20.:22:23.

administration committee. What is that likely to say? We don't know,

:22:24.:22:28.

but what we can say is that they've been looking at governance of the

:22:29.:22:32.

charity, its effectiveness. They've heard more evidence than anybody

:22:33.:22:36.

else. They've heard cases where clients were given almost ?1000 a

:22:37.:22:42.

week in support by the charity. They've heard evidence that perhaps

:22:43.:22:45.

the charity didn't help nearly as many people as it said it was

:22:46.:22:49.

helping. They've heard evidence from local authority officials about

:22:50.:22:52.

whether it was a safe place for young people. It is worth pointing

:22:53.:22:57.

out that the person who is likely to be reading this report is the former

:22:58.:23:02.

chair of the trustees. Because the trustees are really going to get a

:23:03.:23:05.

kick in, I would expect. Alan Yentob, the former creative director

:23:06.:23:11.

of the BBC was chair of the trustees for Kids Company for more than a

:23:12.:23:13.

decade. Thanks very much indeed. In the face of the constant

:23:14.:23:16.

cruelties and purges of a totalitarian regime,

:23:17.:23:18.

would you act as a hero, stand up to your oppressors,

:23:19.:23:24.

and face the likelyhood of death? Or allow them to bend your will

:23:25.:23:29.

to theirs and muddle through? of Julian Barnes's latest

:23:30.:23:32.

novel, published today, about the anguished accommodations

:23:33.:23:37.

Russian composer Shostakovich made In The Noise of Time, Barnes

:23:38.:23:39.

questions whether for an artist, artistic survival

:23:40.:23:44.

is possible or worthwhile, when the artist is destroyed

:23:45.:23:46.

by shame and the betrayal of others,

:23:47.:23:47.

especially of his fellow artists. In his only TV interview,

:23:48.:23:50.

I spoke to him about the composer whose music

:23:51.:23:55.

he has listened to since he was 18. And why he thinks the rise of no

:23:56.:24:04.

platform represents the closing of the mind.

:24:05.:24:16.

He didn't want to make himself into a dramatic character but sometimes

:24:17.:24:22.

as his mind skittered in the small hours he thought, so this is what

:24:23.:24:26.

history has come to. All that striving and idealism and hope and

:24:27.:24:31.

progress and science and art and conscience, it all ends like this.

:24:32.:24:37.

With a man standing by a lift. At his feet a small case containing

:24:38.:24:41.

cigarettes, underwear and toothpaste. Standing there and

:24:42.:24:43.

waiting to be taken away. In the book you discuss in a way

:24:44.:24:53.

whether being a hero is easier Often looking at a

:24:54.:24:56.

tyrannical state from the outside, we want

:24:57.:25:00.

people to be heroes. But then we are also asking

:25:01.:25:03.

for their blood when we do. And to be a hero you can throw

:25:04.:25:07.

a bomb, you can pull a trigger, On the other hand,

:25:08.:25:11.

in Stalin's Russia it wasn't just you who was wiped out,

:25:12.:25:16.

it was your family, friends, So your only choice,

:25:17.:25:18.

really, was to compromise. He paid Caesar as best

:25:19.:25:26.

he could while keeping as much of himself, his private soul and his

:25:27.:25:37.

music as untouched as possible. There's a scene at the beginning

:25:38.:25:49.

of the book where he has his first meeting with power, as it was,

:25:50.:25:52.

the forces of Stalin. And he thinks that he

:25:53.:25:54.

is going to be purged. And he waits outside a lift

:25:55.:25:58.

for almost a fortnight. After Lady Macbeth was condemned

:25:59.:26:02.

he thought that he was probably What happened, oddly,

:26:03.:26:05.

on the weekend between the Saturday and the Monday was

:26:06.:26:10.

that the interrogator So he was sort of off

:26:11.:26:11.

the hook for a bit. But he still thought

:26:12.:26:16.

that he would be taken So he spent the night standing

:26:17.:26:18.

on the landing outside his flat by the lift doors, because he didn't

:26:19.:26:26.

want his wife and child, the trauma of having the door broken

:26:27.:26:30.

down in the middle of the night, child taken away, perhaps

:26:31.:26:33.

to a Soviet orphanage where she would be brought up

:26:34.:26:36.

as a good communist and never know That was unthinkable

:26:37.:26:39.

to him, but that was You have Shostakovich say it's easy

:26:40.:26:42.

being a communist if you don't live And you talk about

:26:43.:26:48.

Picasso and Sartre. One of the interesting sides

:26:49.:26:51.

of Shostakovich is he was a great ironist and he was

:26:52.:26:57.

also very sarcastic. He was particularly harsh

:26:58.:27:01.

on fairweather friends, and on those he saw as helping

:27:02.:27:08.

enforce an entrenched Stalinism. Stravinsky, whom Shostakovich

:27:09.:27:13.

revered, they met twice, very uneasy meeting on both

:27:14.:27:18.

occasions, Stravinsky never went to the help of any

:27:19.:27:21.

persecuted Soviet composer. So Shostakovich's conclusion

:27:22.:27:27.

is that you can have artistic integrity, as Stravinsky

:27:28.:27:33.

did, and not have moral integrity. He thought that that

:27:34.:27:35.

was a weakness of So on one hand you have

:27:36.:27:37.

the Solzhenitsyn figure and on the other

:27:38.:27:41.

side the Shostakovich figure, which do you think

:27:42.:27:43.

you would have been? Oh, I think I would

:27:44.:27:45.

have been a coward. I would have done some kind of deal

:27:46.:27:48.

in order to keep on writing Shostakovich used to say that music

:27:49.:27:51.

is not like Chinese eggs, it doesn't gain by being

:27:52.:28:00.

buried in the ground He did not think that when a piece

:28:01.:28:03.

of his was banned it would get He just thought the people

:28:04.:28:07.

for whom it was being written The book is about truth

:28:08.:28:11.

and freedom and conscience. I wonder if you think

:28:12.:28:17.

now that there is artistic Well I'd be very wary about writing

:28:18.:28:19.

a satirical novel about Putin. One of my favourite Russian sayings

:28:20.:28:31.

which I used as an epigraph to one of my novels 20 years ago

:28:32.:28:35.

and I repeat in the book is: Which is so wonderfully ironic

:28:36.:28:38.

and so Russian and so Shostakovich. And they do say it,

:28:39.:28:45.

Putin, don't they? That he is very

:28:46.:28:49.

straightforward to deal with, and when he lies,

:28:50.:28:51.

he lies brilliantly. But if you were in opposition

:28:52.:28:53.

to Putin, given what has happened to Litvinenko,

:28:54.:28:57.

would you have sleepless nights? I would, I would have

:28:58.:29:01.

sleepless days as well. And you can understand

:29:02.:29:04.

why they are building mansions, the rich ones,

:29:05.:29:08.

all around North London. Which is interesting now

:29:09.:29:16.

because there is a resurgence of interest and affection for Russia

:29:17.:29:19.

from the British left. I don't think it's the shining city

:29:20.:29:21.

on the hill any more. But I remember when the wall came

:29:22.:29:29.

down, I remember being very disappointed with Western

:29:30.:29:36.

politicians because I thought that they would say, ah,

:29:37.:29:40.

now we can painlessly and without any fear look

:29:41.:29:45.

at what left-wing systems had and maybe take some of the best

:29:46.:29:53.

that they had, and some Whereas in fact when the Cold War

:29:54.:29:56.

ended everyone was sort of high-fiving and saying "We're

:29:57.:30:03.

the best, our system has won." Terrible consequences

:30:04.:30:06.

in Eastern Europe, complete Pensioners who'd worked as surgeons,

:30:07.:30:16.

say, having to go and dig I have friends in Bulgaria

:30:17.:30:23.

who told me all about it. But you talked about being a child

:30:24.:30:28.

of the Cold War, and having very distinct memories of

:30:29.:30:31.

what repression really was. And I wonder if you think

:30:32.:30:34.

that we take free speech and the attacks on

:30:35.:30:37.

freedom of speech too Particularly on no platform

:30:38.:30:39.

is really what I'm talking about, Actually what do you make

:30:40.:30:48.

of the idea of no platform? I think it's crazy,

:30:49.:30:54.

especially in academic situations where the whole point

:30:55.:30:58.

of being young and clever and at university

:30:59.:31:01.

is to have your views challenged and opposed,

:31:02.:31:04.

and to have forceful figures like Germaine Greer

:31:05.:31:07.

come and annoy you. I think no-platforming

:31:08.:31:10.

is a very bad idea. Because you disagree

:31:11.:31:18.

with someone about one item of thought, therefore

:31:19.:31:24.

the rest their thinking is not only That's a kind of

:31:25.:31:27.

closing of the mind. I don't know when there

:31:28.:31:35.

was ever a golden age. Earlier this week,

:31:36.:31:42.

Newsnight revealed that a number of key witnesses

:31:43.:31:44.

to the Tory party bullying inquiry were calling for a senior official

:31:45.:31:47.

to stand down from his role

:31:48.:31:49.

overseeing the investigation. At first, Rob Semple

:31:50.:31:51.

refused to do so, Our investigations correspondent

:31:52.:31:52.

Nick Hopkins is here with the latest

:31:53.:31:57.

on this story. Who is Rob Semple, and why is he so

:31:58.:32:10.

important? Rob Semple runs what is called the Tory party national

:32:11.:32:13.

convention, which represents volunteers at Lansdowne the country,

:32:14.:32:18.

so we has a big job, and he has a place at the top table of the party.

:32:19.:32:24.

-- volunteers up and down the country. He was also one of the

:32:25.:32:30.

officials due to set in judgment on the bullying inquiry sparked by the

:32:31.:32:33.

death of Elliott Johnson. The problem is that Mr Semple has been

:32:34.:32:38.

linked with a man at the heart of the allegations of bullying, a chap

:32:39.:32:43.

called mark Clark, and this was raising real concerns among some

:32:44.:32:46.

witnesses who said that it is inappropriate for Mr Semple to hold

:32:47.:32:51.

this role, he should stand down. Mr Semple was refusing to do so, and

:32:52.:32:55.

when we spoke to Central Office earlier this week, they said they

:32:56.:33:00.

would not ask him to do so. So what has changed? Earlier this week,

:33:01.:33:06.

Semple was digging his heels in, when I asked whether he would stand

:33:07.:33:12.

down, he said, no, I was one of the proposers of the independent

:33:13.:33:16.

investigation. But that was before he saw our film on Tuesday night in

:33:17.:33:22.

which Elliott Johnson's parents spoke very movingly about the loss

:33:23.:33:25.

of their son, and they also said that they thought Mr Semple should

:33:26.:33:31.

stand aside. He should do the decent thing and realise that any inquiry

:33:32.:33:36.

conducted by the Conservative Party in which he takes apart is always

:33:37.:33:40.

going to be questioned by the general public, people will say, how

:33:41.:33:45.

can a man who has associated with Mark Clarke be seen to be a person

:33:46.:33:48.

that is actually overseeing part of the inquiry? Well, hearing that

:33:49.:33:55.

seems to have made him change his mind, and earlier today Mr Semple

:33:56.:33:58.

released a statement in which he said, as a father myself, the wishes

:33:59.:34:03.

of Mr and Mr Johnson are paramount to me, and after seeing their

:34:04.:34:08.

interview on BBC TV, I have decided to recuse myself from the board

:34:09.:34:12.

meeting that will discuss the bullying report. He also said he did

:34:13.:34:17.

not regard that as a reflection on his own impartiality. What happens

:34:18.:34:23.

now? I have spoken to Mr and misses Johnson tonight, they are relieved

:34:24.:34:26.

that Mr Semple has stepped aside. They describe it as a victory for

:34:27.:34:31.

common sense. But I think they and other witnesses to the inquiry are

:34:32.:34:37.

wondering, I think they are slightly be willed it, why did it take the

:34:38.:34:41.

Tory party so long to realise that this was a potential problem, and

:34:42.:34:44.

all the way through this there have been episodes in which they have had

:34:45.:34:49.

doubts about the independence and integrity of this inquiry. I should

:34:50.:34:55.

also say that Mark Clarke denies all the allegations against him. Nick,

:34:56.:34:56.

thank you very much indeed. It's been a stalwart

:34:57.:34:58.

of military campaigns, beloved by 007,

:34:59.:35:02.

the world's most famous spy, royalty and most farmers

:35:03.:35:04.

in the country, the Landrover Defender

:35:05.:35:06.

has been in production longer than any other vehicle,

:35:07.:35:08.

the best part of 70 years. While recent iterations of the car

:35:09.:35:13.

has become a must-have for the school run

:35:14.:35:15.

in London's pricier postcodes, the last of the original

:35:16.:35:19.

bone-shakers rolls off the production line

:35:20.:35:22.

in Solihull tomorrow. that meets safety

:35:23.:35:27.

and emission regulations, but that will hardly compensate fans

:35:28.:35:32.

of the simple brute which could be fixed

:35:33.:35:34.

with the blow of a hammer. Talking of which, here's motoring

:35:35.:35:36.

editor Stephen Smith. A museum piece that people have a

:35:37.:35:55.

soft spot for but has supposedly been overtaken by new technology.

:35:56.:35:59.

Never thought I would be associated with anything like that. I am

:36:00.:36:04.

talking, of course, about the Land Rover Defender, seen here being put

:36:05.:36:07.

through its paces on a secret BBC stage where Countryfile is filmed.

:36:08.:36:14.

-- estate. It is really about and Wenger, I should have some sheep in

:36:15.:36:19.

the back or a party of commandos. -- about an adventure. Next time you

:36:20.:36:25.

are late for work, it is worth remembering that nothing but nothing

:36:26.:36:28.

gets in the way of a Land Rover. Like the Spitfire and

:36:29.:36:38.

bread-and-butter pudding... The Defender was an all conquering

:36:39.:36:43.

British invention thrown together by serendipity and inspired

:36:44.:36:46.

improvisation. We took an American jeep and made it our own. It is a

:36:47.:36:50.

bit like what the Rolling Stones did with the blues. The genius

:36:51.:36:55.

responsible was Maurice Wilkes, who tested his Land Rover on the beach

:36:56.:37:00.

at Anglesey. He wanted something hardy and farmers could choke up

:37:01.:37:03.

hill farms in and repair themselves if they had to. For the lowdown on

:37:04.:37:13.

his creation, I consulted design guru Stephen Bayley. Welcome on

:37:14.:37:20.

board! The North face of Soho! E-group a sketch in the sand of the

:37:21.:37:24.

day in Anglesey and said, we are going to make a better four-wheel

:37:25.:37:30.

drive like this. -- he drew. The original one had components from the

:37:31.:37:34.

cheap, but it is altogether more sophisticated. It is that terribly

:37:35.:37:38.

rare example of a British product, to my mind, a central thing doing

:37:39.:37:46.

Bush values, probity, no-nonsense. Honesty as well, this is a very

:37:47.:37:50.

honest vehicle, there is no pretence about what it is. It is either

:37:51.:37:56.

military equipment or agricultural plant. As it also featured on the

:37:57.:38:02.

school run? This is the great grandparent of the notorious Chelsea

:38:03.:38:08.

tractor. There is a direct line of descent from the Land Rover to the

:38:09.:38:16.

popular and much derided sports utility vehicle. But no, I do not

:38:17.:38:20.

think people use the original Land Rover Defender on school runs. It is

:38:21.:38:25.

actually quite hard work to drive. It is not a relaxing car, the

:38:26.:38:32.

difference is like flying in a 1948 aeroplane, you know, which was

:38:33.:38:39.

noisy, uncomfortable and vibrated a lot. The difference between that and

:38:40.:38:43.

an Airbus, silent, smooth and stable. You are having an authentic

:38:44.:38:46.

1948 driving experience here. Is this the most storeyed set of

:38:47.:38:59.

wheels in London? Jack's Series 1 Land Rover once belonged to an army

:39:00.:39:03.

bomb disposal unit, and a vehicle and is a description was linked to

:39:04.:39:10.

the great train robbers. -- answering. I have snapped the rear

:39:11.:39:15.

axle, the gearbox gave up on me. That is a piano pedal, it is set on

:39:16.:39:20.

fire twice. I have had the tail for loch outside Buckingham Palace. I

:39:21.:39:26.

put it in the back and drove off. -- Paul off. Although it is the end of

:39:27.:39:33.

a vehicle, it is also the end of a mentality, the Land Rover,

:39:34.:39:35.

especially the defender, is something which is very empowering,

:39:36.:39:39.

because with very little skill you can work on it yourself, and now

:39:40.:39:47.

people buy vehicles with, you know, five years' warranty and then

:39:48.:39:49.

actually replace them within that period. You know, the Defender will

:39:50.:40:00.

go on for ever. Yes, we will all miss the Defender, high and low

:40:01.:40:05.

alike. According to the Queen, Her Majesty herself gets about in one on

:40:06.:40:10.

her island states, ideal for a bit of stag spotting. You cannot beat

:40:11.:40:17.

pulling on the plus fours, climbing into the old defender and popping

:40:18.:40:21.

out into the countryside. It feels like adventure, especially if you

:40:22.:40:28.

have a nice flask of oxtail with you and an eyeful of red deer. But like

:40:29.:40:37.

the man said, they think it is all Rover. It is now. The front pages,

:40:38.:40:51.

going to the Guardian, EU steps in over Google tax row. On the

:40:52.:40:55.

right-hand side, deal close at UK benefit kids for EU workers. The

:40:56.:41:00.

Daily Mail, ministers promise cosy tax deal for US giants. The Daily

:41:01.:41:07.

Telegraph, Cecil Rhodes' statue at Oxford, they say it is to stay in

:41:08.:41:11.

place after furious donors threaten to withdraw gifts and bequests worth

:41:12.:41:15.

more than ?1 million if it was removed. Finally, the Financial

:41:16.:41:19.

Times, a different take on that story, David Cameron eyes compromise

:41:20.:41:26.

over migrants benefit cuts. How significant is this, plans for

:41:27.:41:31.

reform in Europe? Potentially very significant, because he has managed

:41:32.:41:35.

to meld two things we have been talking about, an emergency brake on

:41:36.:41:39.

migration and forcing people to wait four years until they can claim

:41:40.:41:42.

benefits after they have migrated to the UK. He has merged them into one,

:41:43.:41:47.

and emergency brake which will delay the point at which new migrants can

:41:48.:41:52.

get benefits for four years. It is the worst of both worlds from the

:41:53.:41:55.

perspective of Eurosceptics, because what it means is that he is

:41:56.:42:00.

potentially negotiating a deal which means that only Brussels will be

:42:01.:42:05.

able to tell us when the four year moratorium will come in, that will

:42:06.:42:09.

be in the hands of the European Commission. Thanks very much indeed.

:42:10.:42:11.

Before we go, let's go back 60 years to January 28th 1956.

:42:12.:42:14.

grabbed his guitar and shook his hips

:42:15.:42:17.

in front of a television camera for the first time,

:42:18.:42:20.

on the Dorsey Brothers' Stage Show on CBS.

:42:21.:42:22.

# Get out of that kitchen and rattle those pots and pans

:42:23.:42:34.

# Well, roll my breakfast cos I'm a hungry man

:42:35.:42:39.

# I believe you're doing me wrong and now I know

:42:40.:42:47.

# Cos the harder I work, the faster the money goes

:42:48.:42:52.

# Well, I said shake, rattle and roll

:42:53.:42:54.

# Well, you won't do right to save your doggone soul... #

:42:55.:43:13.

The Met Office has issued a warning for damaging gusts and winds, be

:43:14.:43:19.

prepared for the potential for disruption, because we could see

:43:20.:43:22.

Gast in excess of

:43:23.:43:23.

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