27/01/2016 Newsnight


27/01/2016

Including the future of nuclear power in the UK; the Google tax row; the mysterious case of the unidentified man found dead on a remote hillside; Holocaust Remembrance Day.


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Transcript


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Tonight we throw some light on Britain's electricity problem

:00:00.:00:00.

and the latest delay in the long-awaited nuclear solution.

:00:07.:00:19.

For a modern industrialised economy, which claims to be one of the

:00:20.:00:25.

leading economies in the world, to have any doubt about whether there

:00:26.:00:28.

is enough electricity to keep the lights on is a serious place to be.

:00:29.:00:31.

We'll ask if the nuclear option is either viable or desirable.

:00:32.:00:33.

Also tonight - the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn,

:00:34.:00:37.

on war in Yemen and the Saudis and the British role.

:00:38.:00:39.

The mystery of a plane crash on Saddleworth Moor in 1949,

:00:40.:00:42.

and an elderly, well dressed man found dead in the same spot in 2015.

:00:43.:00:45.

Turns out he's not who everyone thought.

:00:46.:00:50.

Professor Evans, it's not you? No, it's definitely not me.

:00:51.:00:55.

You're almost certainly the last living survivor of this crash?

:00:56.:00:59.

I think it's very likely that I'm the last living survivor.

:01:00.:01:04.

The former Swedish prime minister tells us

:01:05.:01:06.

whether Britain can leave the EU, enjoy the single market

:01:07.:01:08.

and stop the free movement of European citizens into the country.

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Sometimes, important news consists of things that don't happen,

:01:12.:01:25.

rather than things that do - today is one of those occasions.

:01:26.:01:29.

The building of a new nuclear power station at Hinkley Point

:01:30.:01:31.

The board of the French electricity giant EDF was originally scheduled

:01:32.:01:37.

to sign off the ?18 billion construction of Hinkley Point C,

:01:38.:01:39.

It could still happen next month - or after.

:01:40.:01:45.

But clearly there are lingering nerves that it is a project

:01:46.:01:48.

of such a scale that if EDF bungles it, it could destroy the company,

:01:49.:01:53.

notwithstanding all the support the British Government has offered.

:01:54.:01:57.

Now here's the thing - if Hinkley Point is in trouble,

:01:58.:02:00.

We'll be getting perilously short of capacity as it is,

:02:01.:02:06.

and Hinkley is meant to build in 7% of our electricity,

:02:07.:02:11.

but its potential absence leaves a giant hole.

:02:12.:02:14.

has been looking at what's holding it up.

:02:15.:02:31.

Can Britain keep the lights on without it costing a fortune? That

:02:32.:02:41.

concern about a so-called energy gap is a major worry, so it is important

:02:42.:02:46.

that plans for a massive new power plant, Hinkley Point C, now look a

:02:47.:02:51.

bit shakily. You might remember Hinkley, a proposed new nuclear

:02:52.:02:56.

station in Somerset to be built by EDF, the French electricity group.

:02:57.:03:01.

It is supposed to supply 7% of our electricity needs, but a

:03:02.:03:03.

confirmation announcement has been delayed. Welcome to Downing

:03:04.:03:11.

Street... This might prove a serious embarrassment for the Government.

:03:12.:03:15.

Signing a deal with China on Hinkley was a centrepiece of the state visit

:03:16.:03:21.

last year. It is also a major policy. British energy policy

:03:22.:03:25.

currently has three sometimes competing objectives. The first of

:03:26.:03:28.

these is pretty simple, make sure there is enough energy to go round,

:03:29.:03:33.

even as demand increases, as it is expected to do in the coming

:03:34.:03:38.

decades. The second is to reduce carbon in the energy sector, and the

:03:39.:03:41.

third is to achieve the first two objectives without increasing bills

:03:42.:03:47.

for the taxpayer or the electricity consumer. The supply position in

:03:48.:03:52.

Britain is not crisis level in the sense of there being power cuts any

:03:53.:03:57.

day soon. But it is a serious problem in the sense that it costs

:03:58.:04:02.

more to keep the system balanced, prices are higher than they

:04:03.:04:07.

otherwise would have been, and for manufacturing, households, they are

:04:08.:04:11.

paying a price for as sailing so close to the wind. And for any

:04:12.:04:15.

modern economy, you know, there are things you should take for granted.

:04:16.:04:19.

You shouldn't have to question whether there is enough electricity

:04:20.:04:23.

supply. That is why delays to Hinkley are a worry, so what is

:04:24.:04:27.

going on? Hinkley would use a new type of reactor, an EPR, so new that

:04:28.:04:36.

it is not yet running anywhere, and not for want of trying. An EPR

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project in France is six years late and 7 billion euros over budget, and

:04:43.:04:47.

that is having a huge ramifications for Hinkley. In France, a union with

:04:48.:04:52.

a seat on the EDF board is concerned about whether they can afford a

:04:53.:04:55.

project of this size and the riskiness. The union says Hinkley

:04:56.:05:00.

Point represents a huge investment in terms of the market

:05:01.:05:04.

capitalisation of the group and its financial position. They see

:05:05.:05:08.

financial, industrial and legal risks to the project. There is

:05:09.:05:12.

another reason why foreign progress really matters. If you look through

:05:13.:05:17.

the small print of the deal offered to investors, there are sweeteners

:05:18.:05:22.

from the Government, but they only take full effect if and when those

:05:23.:05:27.

foreign reactors can show that the design for Hinkley Point works. You

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can see why new delays in France in the past week might make investors

:05:32.:05:35.

nervous, and nuclear is a tough sell for them anyway. Nuclear power

:05:36.:05:40.

stations are difficult to finance for several different reasons, but

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one of the core ones is that they cost an enormous amount to build,

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and building is always risky, but key issue for investors is you do

:05:50.:05:53.

not get any cash flow out until you have spent every single penny of the

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construction business. If you spend a similar amount building or

:05:59.:06:01.

developing a new oil and gas field, you might only spend 20% before you

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get some oil and gas out, some cash flow. The cost to EDF of raising

:06:07.:06:12.

capital has also risen. This is the changing cost for EDF of borrowing

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for 15 years since last spring. It used to get debt at 1.5% a year. It

:06:17.:06:23.

does not quite doubled but nearly, 2.75% now. So could we finance

:06:24.:06:28.

Hinkley in any other way? We could have added British component to this

:06:29.:06:33.

project, it could have been an Anglo-French project, it could have

:06:34.:06:38.

been financed by nuclear bonds, financed by the Treasury, and the

:06:39.:06:43.

cost of the capital would have been substantially lower. Unfortunately,

:06:44.:06:46.

that argument has been lost, but we will live with the consequence of

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choosing the more expensive route for perhaps 60 years as a

:06:52.:06:56.

consequence. But we are where we are, and problems in a French

:06:57.:07:00.

company's work on a French reactor have led to murmurs among investors

:07:01.:07:05.

about the next generation of the British energy infrastructure as

:07:06.:07:06.

well. If the finances of Hinkley Point

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are challenged right now, remember that the economics

:07:08.:07:11.

of renewable energy also struggle when oil is as cheap

:07:12.:07:13.

as it is right now. We're joined by Jenny Jones

:07:14.:07:16.

of the Green Party and Ed Davey, who was Secretary of State

:07:17.:07:20.

for Energy and Climate Change You were negotiating with EDF on

:07:21.:07:36.

this very project for ages. It was painful, actually, it went on and

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on, are you surprised that day, after all of that, have stepped back

:07:40.:07:44.

and said, let's think about this at little more? Not really, it is a

:07:45.:07:48.

very congregated deal, a huge decision for them to make, and it is

:07:49.:07:53.

a delay of weeks, rather than months. -- very complicated deal. It

:07:54.:07:58.

is not just about Hinkley Point C, it is linked to what will happen at

:07:59.:08:04.

Sizewell C, it is also linked to Bradwell, the other site in Essex,

:08:05.:08:09.

the Chinese link there. It is a highly complicated deal. I am not

:08:10.:08:13.

surprised that it has been kicked down the road a month or two. They

:08:14.:08:18.

have not got it running in Flamenville or in Finland, massively

:08:19.:08:22.

over budget, massively delayed. Have they bitten off more than they can

:08:23.:08:27.

chew? Hinkley Point C is actually two of these reactors, and they have

:08:28.:08:32.

not got one working yet. The key thing for me was making sure the

:08:33.:08:39.

British consumer was protected, so the British consumer pays nothing

:08:40.:08:41.

until these things start generating, nothing at all. We have also said

:08:42.:08:45.

the contract is not going to happen until Flamenville works. So we have

:08:46.:08:50.

protected the UK. But George Osborne, what he has done since the

:08:51.:08:57.

election, he has got rid of support for renewables, completely abandoned

:08:58.:09:00.

carbon capture and storage. These are low carbon technologies that we

:09:01.:09:04.

put in place to compete, to make sure we were not putting all our

:09:05.:09:08.

eggs in the nuclear basket, and he has played a very irresponsible card

:09:09.:09:12.

with British energy policy. George Osborne is the real villain of this

:09:13.:09:17.

piece. Jenny Jones, you tweeted today, this makes me very happy, the

:09:18.:09:23.

news of the delay. Why did it make you happy? It is a deal that should

:09:24.:09:27.

never have been struck, and it must not go ahead. If this gets built, we

:09:28.:09:32.

will have the most expensive nuclear power plant on earth, and we will

:09:33.:09:36.

also have the most expensive electricity being produced from any

:09:37.:09:42.

technology. It is madness. You mentioned earlier the nuclear

:09:43.:09:45.

solution. It is not a solution, it is the start of a lot more problems.

:09:46.:09:51.

Is that right? I disagree. What is different with this deal from any

:09:52.:09:54.

other nuclear deal in the world is that the decommissioning costs are

:09:55.:10:01.

in the price. The cost of managing the waste are in the price. We will

:10:02.:10:07.

be paying more for decades ahead. It is cheaper than some of the

:10:08.:10:11.

renewables, and, moreover, if you compare it with gas and coal, plus

:10:12.:10:16.

their pollution costs, not just the wholesale price of coal and gas but

:10:17.:10:20.

a carbon price on top, that would be a fair way of doing it, it is

:10:21.:10:26.

completely linked to those prices. He was against nuclear, he came

:10:27.:10:29.

around when he had a job in government and had to work it out.

:10:30.:10:34.

Climate change, if you care about climate change, you should not be

:10:35.:10:38.

taking a low carbon technology off the table. The whole point about

:10:39.:10:43.

nuclear for me is that it has never been cost-effective. It has not

:10:44.:10:46.

stood on its own feet without public subsidy in 60 years, and it is not

:10:47.:10:51.

going to in the future either. The strike price at this power station

:10:52.:10:56.

is going to beat ?92.50 per megawatt. That means, you know, you

:10:57.:11:01.

say the consumer is not paying, but the taxpayer is paying huge amounts

:11:02.:11:06.

of money to subsidise this. This brings us to an interesting

:11:07.:11:10.

question, if you do not want nuclear, you do not want heating to

:11:11.:11:13.

be run by gas, because that is carbon. You do not want cars to run

:11:14.:11:18.

on petrol, what do you want them to run on? When we are looking at how

:11:19.:11:26.

to construct a future that is going to be viable in terms of climate

:11:27.:11:29.

change and the needs of humans, you have to think about renewables,

:11:30.:11:33.

heavily investing. But be clear, you have to replace the nuclear power

:11:34.:11:36.

stations that are falling by the wayside, the Coral, the gas power

:11:37.:11:40.

stations, you have to do that and introduce a enough new power

:11:41.:11:46.

stations to run cars, heat homes, how? Gas is going to be part of the

:11:47.:11:51.

make up for some time, but if we had combined heat and power stations,

:11:52.:11:56.

when we want to down scale gas, we can start bringing in green gas from

:11:57.:12:01.

food waste and so on. Food waste is going to run all the automobiles in

:12:02.:12:05.

the United Kingdom? Let's think about reducing the number of

:12:06.:12:09.

automobiles. You have to remember that our energy needs have gone down

:12:10.:12:13.

in the past few years. That is quite unexpected, when you think the

:12:14.:12:18.

population has gone up, but people are understanding you can save money

:12:19.:12:22.

and save energy, and people are doing it. This government, including

:12:23.:12:27.

the Conservative-Lib Dem coalition, is not invested in installation or

:12:28.:12:33.

reducing people's need. You make a good point. Very kind of you! And

:12:34.:12:39.

you. I am a huge fan of renewables, I commissioned more than any other

:12:40.:12:42.

British politician in history, I am a huge fan of energy at but I am not

:12:43.:12:49.

a clairvoyant, I cannot tell the future. Lots of people think they

:12:50.:12:55.

can, and given climate change is such a threat to humanity, we should

:12:56.:13:00.

have all the low carbon options on the table, including nuclear,

:13:01.:13:03.

including renewables, energy efficiency, carbon capture and

:13:04.:13:07.

storage. What George Osborne is doing, by cutting back on energy

:13:08.:13:10.

efficient renewables, he is bling fast and loose with the climate and

:13:11.:13:15.

fast and loose with energy security. -- he is playing. I am so sorry, we

:13:16.:13:17.

have to stop. Well, Westminster is less gripped

:13:18.:13:19.

by an impending electricity shortage - it's a few years away, after all -

:13:20.:13:22.

it is dominated this week by the tax row that won't go away,

:13:23.:13:25.

Google's tax bill. It came up again at PMQs today.

:13:26.:13:28.

Here's Jeremy Corbyn. I've got a question here,

:13:29.:13:30.

Mr Speaker, Now, you might well laugh,

:13:31.:13:32.

but Geoff actually speaks for millions of people

:13:33.:13:40.

when he says to me, "Can you ask the Prime Minister if

:13:41.:13:46.

as a working man of over 30 years, whether there is a scheme

:13:47.:13:52.

which I can join that pays the same rate of tax as Google

:13:53.:13:55.

and other large corporations?" What does the Prime Minister say

:13:56.:14:00.

to Geoff? Sitting behind David Cameron there,

:14:01.:14:05.

the Chancellor who had called Broadly speaking, the commentariat

:14:06.:14:08.

beg to differ Two representatives of that

:14:09.:14:13.

commentariat are here. Rachel Sylvester from the Times

:14:14.:14:17.

newspaper and Tim Stanley Rachel Sylvester, is this

:14:18.:14:28.

potentially the first issue where Corbyn is going to have something to

:14:29.:14:32.

go with and it will last quite a while? That's right. It is one of

:14:33.:14:36.

the first time it is Corbyn standing up for ordinary people against the

:14:37.:14:39.

elite. George Osborne has got himself on the wrong side of this

:14:40.:14:44.

argument. I think Corbyn is striking a populist note in the way he hasn't

:14:45.:14:47.

on all the issues of national security, defence, and all of the

:14:48.:14:52.

things where he has been alienating Middle England and people will be

:14:53.:14:55.

saying yes, someone saying what we feel. Tim Stanley, there have been

:14:56.:15:01.

lots of people who wouldn't ally themselves with Corbyn, like Rupert

:15:02.:15:05.

Murdoch tweeting today, lining up on the same side. Where is the

:15:06.:15:12.

Telegraph on this taxish yoo u? I don't know you were going to ask me

:15:13.:15:16.

that! If you have a very complicated tax system n the way we do for

:15:17.:15:22.

international taxes, this kind of complication can emerge. We would

:15:23.:15:25.

rather people paid as much tax as they should. This is why this has

:15:26.:15:29.

happened. George Osborne wants to keep businesses in this country.

:15:30.:15:32.

That is why he's cut this deal. Sorry, that is why the HMRC has cut

:15:33.:15:36.

this deal. This is why he described it as a victory. You keep a major

:15:37.:15:41.

company in the country. The problem is, the rest of us pay 20% or 40%

:15:42.:15:46.

when it comes to tax. We don't understand why a company should pay

:15:47.:15:49.

3% when it makes such an extraordinary amount of money. This

:15:50.:15:52.

isn't the first mistake. We discovered that George was mortal

:15:53.:15:56.

when the tax credit issue came up and when the Government was defeated

:15:57.:16:00.

in the Lords. Also, we have seen a reversal through the courts possibly

:16:01.:16:04.

on bedroom tax, too. So all these big welfare changes, which George

:16:05.:16:08.

saw as being real vote winners and clever things to force Labour to the

:16:09.:16:12.

left and make the Government look populist, they could end up haunting

:16:13.:16:17.

him. The Ed Miliband phrase about the Tories are strong when it comes

:16:18.:16:20.

to standing up to the weak and weak when it comes to standing up to the

:16:21.:16:25.

strong. The optics of simultaneously a bedroom tax court case coming in,

:16:26.:16:32.

disabled children and women with domestic violence problems, and the

:16:33.:16:34.

Government says we will appeal against this today. They are

:16:35.:16:41.

declaring, they are trying to defend this tax settlement with Google, it

:16:42.:16:47.

is not good? The Tories underlying fundamental brand problem is they

:16:48.:16:50.

are seen as the party of the rich and they are on the side of the

:16:51.:16:54.

wealthy elite, big business, large international corporations, rather

:16:55.:16:57.

than on the side of the hard-working, ordinary person. They

:16:58.:17:00.

have tried to position themselves as the party of the strivers. Every

:17:01.:17:04.

time this happens, it looks like they are back to that party of the

:17:05.:17:08.

rich image. There are two mistakes in a way. One is, if you want to

:17:09.:17:13.

take the Labour narrative, one is you gave into Google and you had

:17:14.:17:20.

?130 million. The other is, George Osborne thought that was a victory.

:17:21.:17:23.

That is the bit where he is out of touch with everyone else. That is

:17:24.:17:28.

not a victory... That is the tone deafness, isn't it? Osborne is

:17:29.:17:32.

working on an intellectual level which means he is thinking about the

:17:33.:17:36.

economic long-term. He does care passionately about people making

:17:37.:17:39.

money. He is big on entrepreneurs and the Northern Powerhouse. He

:17:40.:17:42.

likes the thought of ordinary people getting ahead. The problem is, it is

:17:43.:17:47.

a cliche, but we have to keep coming back to it. When you haven't worked

:17:48.:17:50.

for a living and relied on welfare, when you haven't done what a lot of

:17:51.:17:56.

ordinary working middle-class people do, you don't connect the dots

:17:57.:18:00.

between welfare charges and what effect they have people's individual

:18:01.:18:04.

lives. That is the piece that is missing with George Osborne. There

:18:05.:18:08.

are people within the Tory Party who support Boris Johnson who are very

:18:09.:18:12.

keen to exploit that. Come on, talk about how this impacts the

:18:13.:18:16.

leadership race. That is what everyone talks about now. It is

:18:17.:18:19.

another example of George Osborne's big flaw which is a lack of

:18:20.:18:25.

emotional intelligence. He is very clever, lots of tactical schemes,

:18:26.:18:32.

but he lacks the empathy for how ordinary people live and an ability

:18:33.:18:36.

to articulate and understanding of that. That is the difference between

:18:37.:18:40.

a leader and a Chancellor. Boris Johnson is the absolute opposite.

:18:41.:18:46.

He's got all the emotional, whatever you want in the world, but he lacks

:18:47.:18:52.

a consistency and discipline. What I find interesting, Osborne seems to

:18:53.:18:57.

exist in cycles, boom-and-bust, there are periods when his stock is

:18:58.:19:03.

so high, and periods when his stock goes down. Before the 2010 election,

:19:04.:19:07.

they were saying is Cameron going to have to dump him? He's changing more

:19:08.:19:11.

than almost any other member of the Cabinet. It is not just the haircut

:19:12.:19:15.

and the diet. And the image makeover. He's gone from being a

:19:16.:19:22.

tactical, hard economic person to being a more Heseltine protege.

:19:23.:19:27.

There is a lack of emotional intelligence underlying that. Is

:19:28.:19:31.

there a split at the party? Some people have said there is such a

:19:32.:19:34.

difference between the Cameron narrative and the Osborne narrative.

:19:35.:19:38.

There is an emerging split. Is that true, Tim? It could be that Cameron

:19:39.:19:42.

had the advantage of an extra day of headlines to see I'm not going to

:19:43.:19:45.

hold the line that Osborne tried holding on Saturday? There is a

:19:46.:19:49.

split of where we go next, what the party is going to look like. The

:19:50.:19:54.

choices between Cameron, which is driven by the search for consensus,

:19:55.:19:58.

and the search for social peace in Britain. There is the libertarian

:19:59.:20:04.

politics of George Osborne which is supported by the creation of a

:20:05.:20:07.

fantastic political machine within Parliament. Osborne will have a lot

:20:08.:20:11.

of supporters because he's put them in important positions of power.

:20:12.:20:15.

There is a challenge coming forward. I'm starting to buy into the

:20:16.:20:19.

narrative that the next leader of the Tory Party will be someone who

:20:20.:20:23.

we have never heard of, but someone who surprises us and hasn't been

:20:24.:20:26.

inside Parliament for a long time. Thank you.

:20:27.:20:29.

This programme has made quite an effort to draw attention

:20:30.:20:30.

to the war in Yemen - to most it probably feels remote,

:20:31.:20:32.

and overshadowed by the cruelty in Syria.

:20:33.:20:34.

But it clearly is something to do with us, as Saudi Arabia is leading

:20:35.:20:38.

the effort to reinstall the old government of Yemen,

:20:39.:20:41.

and Saudi Arabia is using British arms and getting British

:20:42.:20:44.

Today, a major report on the conflict from a UN Panel

:20:45.:20:48.

of Experts was leaked, so we have their view.

:20:49.:20:51.

Gabriel Gatehouse has been reporting on the conflcit -

:20:52.:20:53.

You have a leaked copy of the report. It is quite balanced, isn't

:20:54.:21:07.

it? It is even-handed, it points out the Saudis are supporting the

:21:08.:21:11.

internationally recognised government of Yemen. It blames its

:21:12.:21:15.

opponents for bringing about the crisis and paints a bleak picture.

:21:16.:21:20.

Human rights violations by both sides, proliferation of groups, the

:21:21.:21:24.

use of starvation as a method of warfare. It's the issue of air

:21:25.:21:28.

strikes that critics of UK Government policy have focussed on.

:21:29.:21:34.

They go into some detail. 60% of civilian deaths, 2,682 deaths were

:21:35.:21:38.

caused by air strikes. The Saudis and their allies are the only ones

:21:39.:21:42.

with any air power. When you dig into the detail, you see things like

:21:43.:21:49.

the targeting of refugee camps, schools, buses, markets, mosques,

:21:50.:21:54.

factories and three alleged cases of civilians fleeing residential

:21:55.:21:57.

bombings being chased and shot at by helicopters. It doesn't specifically

:21:58.:22:03.

mention the UK record here. But it is very relevant? It doesn't mention

:22:04.:22:08.

the UK. It calls on the international community to support

:22:09.:22:11.

independent investigations into violations by both sides. The UK

:22:12.:22:17.

sells arms to Saudi Arabia, it doesn't sell arms to the other

:22:18.:22:38.

group. And lawyers said they have given the government until the end

:22:39.:22:42.

of next week to suspend arms exports to Saudi Arabia or else they will

:22:43.:22:44.

issue legal proceedings. Thank you. The Labour Party is particularly

:22:45.:22:46.

concerned at the British role in this war - Jeremy Corbyn raised

:22:47.:22:48.

it at Prime Minister's Questions today, and a little earlier I spoke

:22:49.:22:50.

to the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, who along

:22:51.:22:53.

with Mr Corbyn has today called for a suspension of UK arms

:22:54.:22:56.

sales to Saudi Arabia. I began my asking him what he wants

:22:57.:22:58.

Britain to do now in light Now, other organisations

:22:59.:22:59.

Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch,

:23:00.:23:06.

Medecins Sans Frontieres have been reporting what they regard

:23:07.:23:10.

as violations of international humanitarian law, but now we have

:23:11.:23:12.

this expert panel on Yemen, set up by the UN Security Council,

:23:13.:23:16.

saying that they have documented air strikes targeting civilians

:23:17.:23:20.

in breach of international In the light of that,

:23:21.:23:24.

given the weapons that we sell as a country to Saudi Arabia,

:23:25.:23:29.

given the rules that the Government is meant to apply, Jeremy Corbyn

:23:30.:23:32.

and I have today written to the Prime Minister to say

:23:33.:23:36.

you should now carry out an urgent investigation and should suspend any

:23:37.:23:40.

further weapon sales pending The Saudis - and by extension us -

:23:41.:23:44.

are backing the right side in this conflict, in the report,

:23:45.:23:51.

the UN report, it is called Do you support the objective of that

:23:52.:23:53.

government getting back in? I do because that is

:23:54.:24:00.

what the United Nations does. But, in conducting this conflict,

:24:01.:24:02.

and over 7,000 Yemenis have been killed, 2.5 million have had

:24:03.:24:08.

to flee from their homes, there is a grave humanitarian

:24:09.:24:11.

catastrophe, that is what the UN It is really important

:24:12.:24:16.

that the campaign is conducted within international law

:24:17.:24:21.

and there is, of course, an impact on the UK because we have

:24:22.:24:25.

the arms control criteria. That could have a very damaging

:24:26.:24:29.

effect on the long-term British arms trade because people

:24:30.:24:34.

to whom we supply arms may say we can't rely on these people not

:24:35.:24:37.

to be applying strings and terms and conditions after the fact

:24:38.:24:40.

when we want to use them. You have to be honest

:24:41.:24:43.

about that, haven't you? This could be costly in monetary

:24:44.:24:48.

terms even though it might be the right thing to do,

:24:49.:24:53.

in your view? If you have got the criteria that

:24:54.:24:56.

say if there is a clear risk that this may result

:24:57.:24:59.

in the commission of serious breaches of international

:25:00.:25:01.

humanitarian law, the Government's put the rules in place,

:25:02.:25:04.

previous governments have done that as well, they should be applied,

:25:05.:25:06.

you should look at what's happened British Governments have tended

:25:07.:25:11.

to believe the Saudi relationship David Cameron has talked

:25:12.:25:16.

about security, at least one incident he says, terrorist incident

:25:17.:25:20.

here, that has been thwarted I accept the argument

:25:21.:25:24.

that the security co-operation that we have with Saudi Arabia

:25:25.:25:31.

is extremely important. We both face a terrorist threat,

:25:32.:25:34.

lots of countries face a terrorist threat, and therefore effective

:25:35.:25:37.

exchange of information about the nature of that threat,

:25:38.:25:40.

individuals who might be responsible for attacks,

:25:41.:25:42.

of course that is important. What do you do if the Saudis say

:25:43.:25:45.

there is no more defence Well, I hope very much

:25:46.:25:48.

that they would not do that because if breaches of international

:25:49.:25:53.

humanitarian law are proven, and the committee on experts has

:25:54.:25:56.

said today this is what we found, the answer to that is to change

:25:57.:26:01.

what you are doing so you do comply But I hope genuinely that that

:26:02.:26:05.

would not get in the way of the security co-operation

:26:06.:26:09.

which is important to protect our citizens,

:26:10.:26:11.

as well as the citizens of Saudi Arabia, and people right

:26:12.:26:13.

around the world given the nature It brings us to your relationship

:26:14.:26:17.

with Jeremy Corbyn, who is a very principled man on foreign policy,

:26:18.:26:21.

and quite uncompromising The impending issue facing

:26:22.:26:25.

you all is Trident. Is Labour going to have one policy

:26:26.:26:32.

on Trident when it comes to a vote Different members of

:26:33.:26:41.

the Parliamentary Labour Party and different members

:26:42.:26:45.

of the Labour Party hold My view is as follows: I want

:26:46.:26:47.

a world in which there are no nuclear weapons, and

:26:48.:26:51.

so does Jeremy Corbyn. You get there by multi-lateral

:26:52.:26:53.

negotiation, not Not one of the other nuclear states

:26:54.:26:57.

in the world would say if you are giving yours up,

:26:58.:27:03.

we will chuck ours in the bin and, secondly, it's a different world out

:27:04.:27:06.

there and the threat that I grew up with, and many people did,

:27:07.:27:11.

fear of the Soviet Union, that has changed, although we have

:27:12.:27:15.

seen Russia doing certain things that have given rise to concern,

:27:16.:27:19.

but who can say with any certainty what the threats will be in 10, 20,

:27:20.:27:23.

30 or 40 years' time? Would you want a world

:27:24.:27:26.

in which North Korea was the only nation that had nuclear weapons

:27:27.:27:29.

and everyone else has This gets us to the heart

:27:30.:27:32.

of the problem. You have exchanged and espoused

:27:33.:27:36.

the beliefs you have The policy review may come up

:27:37.:27:38.

with the opposite policy which is to get rid of them

:27:39.:27:43.

straightaway, British weapons, Would you be able,

:27:44.:27:45.

as Shadow Foreign Secretary, to stay in the Shadow Cabinet,

:27:46.:27:50.

in that post at least, with such a big difference

:27:51.:27:54.

between you on that issue? Look, I won't answer that now

:27:55.:27:59.

because we don't know what the outcome of

:28:00.:28:00.

the review is going to be. Let us see what the outcome of that

:28:01.:28:03.

review is going to be. It is important that

:28:04.:28:05.

everybody argues their case Are you comfortable now that

:28:06.:28:07.

you have found a working arrangement in the party between independent

:28:08.:28:14.

thought and collective Look, all political parties

:28:15.:28:18.

are coalitions of interest And one of the reasons I think why

:28:19.:28:23.

Jeremy won the election is that people saw someone who was willing

:28:24.:28:30.

to say what he thought, He appointed people

:28:31.:28:34.

to the Shadow Cabinet knowing that on one or two issues they had

:28:35.:28:37.

different views to him. That is a strength of our politics

:28:38.:28:41.

and the most important task we have got at the moment actually

:28:42.:28:44.

is to hold this rotten Government to account because we need

:28:45.:28:47.

a strong opposition, and there is a lot of people out

:28:48.:28:50.

there who are suffering because of what Government is doing

:28:51.:28:52.

and they want to see an effective opposition and that is

:28:53.:28:54.

what we are seeking to do under Hilary Benn,

:28:55.:28:57.

thank you very much. People said when I introduced that

:28:58.:29:11.

item I said Hilary Big Ben. I don't remember doing that, but he is a

:29:12.:29:12.

very tall guy! A sad and intriguing story

:29:13.:29:15.

now from the Pennines. Greater Manchester Police

:29:16.:29:16.

are investigating the mystery of the body of a smartly-dressed

:29:17.:29:18.

elderly man which was found

:29:19.:29:19.

on Saddleworth Moor in December. or the circumstances

:29:20.:29:21.

around his death. But one theory on the man's presence

:29:22.:29:24.

there is that he may have some connection to a plane crash

:29:25.:29:27.

at the site, that was back in 1949. Nick Hopkins has been

:29:28.:29:31.

looking into it. This is one of the last

:29:32.:29:37.

images of him alive. The next day, his body was found

:29:38.:29:43.

lying face up on Saddleworth Moor. The man, apparently around 70 years

:29:44.:29:49.

old, travelled more than 200 miles to get there with no wallet,

:29:50.:29:52.

no phone and no ID. Six weeks on, the police

:29:53.:29:57.

still have no idea who he is. August 1949, a plane travelling

:29:58.:30:05.

from Belfast to Manchester crashes on the edge of

:30:06.:30:09.

the Peak District. We are considering whether

:30:10.:30:13.

the gentleman was a relative Alternatively, there were

:30:14.:30:20.

a few children who survived from the plane crash, and maybe

:30:21.:30:27.

he was one of those people. He would match the age,

:30:28.:30:31.

but there are inquiries ongoing to see if we

:30:32.:30:34.

can discount that. He looked at peace

:30:35.:30:36.

when a passing cyclist found him. Could this possibly have been

:30:37.:30:43.

some kind of pilgrimage? He began his journey at Ealing

:30:44.:30:45.

Broadway Station in west London. He travelled to the

:30:46.:30:54.

capital's Euston Station. He asked for directions

:30:55.:30:58.

to the top of a nearby hill He was seen walking on the path

:30:59.:31:04.

two hours later. The next morning,

:31:05.:31:09.

his body was discovered. This is where the plane

:31:10.:31:12.

came down in 1949. Among the survivors,

:31:13.:31:18.

two were boys back in 1949. One is now dead,

:31:19.:31:22.

the other is Stephen Evans. But it could be - I could understand

:31:23.:31:27.

why people would think But it's not me, and I have no

:31:28.:31:37.

idea who it could be. Newsnight tracked down

:31:38.:31:43.

Professor Evans last night. He rang police to say

:31:44.:31:47.

he is alive and well. Almost certainly, he's the last

:31:48.:31:50.

remaining survivor from the flight. I remember my mother saying to me,

:31:51.:31:56.

as we looked out, that it is cloud outside,

:31:57.:32:13.

when I had suggested it was fog. She said, "No, it is cloud,"

:32:14.:32:16.

and the next thing I remember was waking up, and most of the plane

:32:17.:32:19.

seemed to be over there, and my mother was in the seat

:32:20.:32:22.

beside me, unconscious but praying. Stephen Evans's younger brother

:32:23.:32:25.

Roger died in the crash. Yes, he refused to leave the scene

:32:26.:32:28.

until he was sure that everybody who remained there

:32:29.:32:38.

had no hope of being rescued. He insisted on being

:32:39.:32:44.

the last living person to leave. But he had a broken kneecap,

:32:45.:32:48.

and he was crawling round, and immediately after the plane

:32:49.:32:52.

crash, I recall him saying, "We must get out of here

:32:53.:32:57.

before the tanks go up, we must get out of here

:32:58.:32:59.

before the tanks go up." So the man on the hill

:33:00.:33:02.

was not on that flight, though someone close

:33:03.:33:05.

to him could have been. The tragedy is that somebody

:33:06.:33:08.

should be so alone in life that they go off

:33:09.:33:12.

and nobody misses them. Police have had dozens of leads

:33:13.:33:20.

- theories abound. But the truth is

:33:21.:33:27.

they still don't know the identity

:33:28.:33:29.

of the man on Saddleworth Moor. Newsnight has caused

:33:30.:33:33.

quite a stir in Belgium today. All to do with our interview

:33:34.:33:35.

last night with the Greek migration minister, who accused his Belgian

:33:36.:33:38.

counterpart of suggesting migrants should be pushed back into the sea

:33:39.:33:41.

to stop them coming. The Belgian minister concerned,

:33:42.:33:44.

a Flemish nationalist, issued a statement

:33:45.:33:47.

denying he'd said that - But he said he did think migrants

:33:48.:33:49.

who didn't claim asylum should be pushed back

:33:50.:33:56.

to their country of origin. That row shows how sensitive

:33:57.:34:00.

the issue is and fraught for governments

:34:01.:34:06.

across Europe. And it's completely displacing

:34:07.:34:10.

discussion about Britain's possible exit

:34:11.:34:11.

from the EU. Well, earlier today,

:34:12.:34:13.

I sat down with Carl Bildt, former prime minister and foreign

:34:14.:34:15.

secretary of Sweden, a man who's been at the top table

:34:16.:34:18.

of European discussions for decades about both where we are

:34:19.:34:31.

and where are going. I asked him about the tone of

:34:32.:34:38.

debate. I'm disappointed with some

:34:39.:34:41.

of the things that we are seeing, but clearly we have, I think,

:34:42.:34:45.

in the Western electorate, when we look at the American debate,

:34:46.:34:47.

Mr Trump, for example, or Madame Le Pen in France

:34:48.:34:50.

or whatever, we have sort of an angry coterie of our

:34:51.:34:52.

electorate which is dissatisfied with the way our societies

:34:53.:34:55.

have been developing, globalisation, immigration,

:34:56.:34:57.

whatever, and has led to a certain brutalisation of the politics

:34:58.:34:59.

on these issues as well, that other politicians

:35:00.:35:01.

move off in that direction. That is unfortunate,

:35:02.:35:04.

when that happens. One response to this migrant crisis

:35:05.:35:08.

has been for countries to say, let's build fences

:35:09.:35:12.

around our country. There is another response,

:35:13.:35:20.

isn't there? Which says the problem with Schengen

:35:21.:35:24.

was we didn't go far enough, we didn't have a common asylum

:35:25.:35:27.

policy, a common immigration policy, a common passport,

:35:28.:35:29.

a common right to residency. I just wonder whether you think,

:35:30.:35:31.

actually, maybe that is the way the whole thing in the end

:35:32.:35:34.

is going to have to go. I think, over time, it will have

:35:35.:35:37.

to move in that direction, because at the moment, when we

:35:38.:35:44.

have the common Schengen zone, and and we have the principle of asylum

:35:45.:35:48.

policy is supposed to be the same, but the application

:35:49.:35:52.

is very different. Sweden has been extremely

:35:53.:35:53.

generous, others might be That leads to the streams

:35:54.:35:55.

being sort of distorted, so over time we need to move to a

:35:56.:35:59.

truly common European asylum system. Otherwise it's going

:36:00.:36:02.

to be very difficult. I don't think it's going to happen

:36:03.:36:04.

next week, to put it in those terms, We've spoken a lot here

:36:05.:36:09.

about how leaving the EU, Tell us what you think

:36:10.:36:13.

the consequence of a Brexit would be for the rest of Europe -

:36:14.:36:20.

would it be damaging? I think it would be seriously

:36:21.:36:23.

damaging to all of us. Because we are living,

:36:24.:36:29.

as I think we agree, in a more dangerous world,

:36:30.:36:33.

it is more challenging, it is more demanding,

:36:34.:36:36.

it is more dangerous. That means that friends must work

:36:37.:36:39.

together, and if we suddenly see a Europe that starts to fracture,

:36:40.:36:42.

with a significant country leaving, that is going to be

:36:43.:36:48.

a weakened Europe, and in my opinion

:36:49.:36:52.

a more dangerous Europe. The separation negotiations

:36:53.:36:55.

are going to be very, very messy, for the UK to sort out what's going

:36:56.:36:58.

to be the alternative arrangement, and I know there's virtually

:36:59.:37:08.

no debate about that subject, which I think it's vital

:37:09.:37:12.

for the future, if there's

:37:13.:37:14.

going to be anything. This is going to consume a lot

:37:15.:37:15.

of the political energies all over Europe.

:37:16.:37:18.

I mean, take Russia, Ukraine. What we have seen as a consequence,

:37:19.:37:20.

there is no question that the United Kingdom,

:37:21.:37:23.

which is a significant diplomatic and foreign-policy actor,

:37:24.:37:25.

always has been, should be in my opinion, has been otherwise

:37:26.:37:27.

engaged during this particular period, because it is dragged down

:37:28.:37:29.

by this particular debate. Has that been a good thing

:37:30.:37:32.

or a bad thing? In my opinion,

:37:33.:37:39.

it's been a bad thing. We are losing in power

:37:40.:37:42.

and credibility when the UK sort of disappears

:37:43.:37:44.

from the scene and gets bogged down

:37:45.:37:47.

in its own contradictions. Do you think it is possible

:37:48.:37:52.

we would have full access to the single market

:37:53.:37:58.

without free movement of people? And the border issue,

:37:59.:38:02.

to me, is somewhat bizarre, I arrived here on the train

:38:03.:38:14.

from Brussels, and when you go past Calais and enter into the tunnel

:38:15.:38:18.

there, I mean, there is barbed wire, there is barriers,

:38:19.:38:21.

there is police, there is military. The French are controlling

:38:22.:38:26.

the external border and preventing people

:38:27.:38:29.

from coming in. but I had to pass two different

:38:30.:38:33.

checks with passports. I mean, it looks like

:38:34.:38:38.

you have control Right, but we can't stop

:38:39.:38:40.

any number of people, citizens, passport holders of the EU

:38:41.:38:46.

who choose to settle and work here. That is true, that is true,

:38:47.:38:49.

but that is very, very different from the Calais or the Syrian

:38:50.:38:53.

or the refugee crisis. I mean, you have 2.25 million

:38:54.:38:55.

citizens of the EU living and working and contributing

:38:56.:39:01.

to the UK economy, there is in the order

:39:02.:39:05.

of two million UK citizens I am on the board of a think tank,

:39:06.:39:07.

and we have done a study, and they make significant

:39:08.:39:14.

about these things, and they showed I can understand some

:39:15.:39:28.

of the concerns about the refugees We are marking it with a song

:39:29.:39:33.

from British composer of drawings and poems

:39:34.:39:56.

made by the children of Terezin that Pook saw at the

:39:57.:40:00.

Jewish Museum in Prague. was a holding camp for Jews

:40:01.:40:04.

before they were sent east And the words of Birdsong,

:40:05.:40:08.

here performed by the Zemel Choir, # Then if your tears

:40:09.:40:11.

obscure your way

:40:12.:40:52.

Including the future of nuclear power in the UK; the Google tax row; the mysterious case of the unidentified man found dead on a remote hillside; Holocaust Remembrance Day.

Presented by Evan Davis.


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