Browse content similar to 27/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight we throw some light on Britain's electricity problem | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
and the latest delay in the long-awaited nuclear solution. | :00:07. | :00:19. | |
For a modern industrialised economy, which claims to be one of the | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
leading economies in the world, to have any doubt about whether there | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
is enough electricity to keep the lights on is a serious place to be. | :00:29. | :00:31. | |
We'll ask if the nuclear option is either viable or desirable. | :00:32. | :00:33. | |
Also tonight - the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
on war in Yemen and the Saudis and the British role. | :00:38. | :00:39. | |
The mystery of a plane crash on Saddleworth Moor in 1949, | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
and an elderly, well dressed man found dead in the same spot in 2015. | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
Turns out he's not who everyone thought. | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
Professor Evans, it's not you? No, it's definitely not me. | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
You're almost certainly the last living survivor of this crash? | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
I think it's very likely that I'm the last living survivor. | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
The former Swedish prime minister tells us | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
whether Britain can leave the EU, enjoy the single market | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
and stop the free movement of European citizens into the country. | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
Sometimes, important news consists of things that don't happen, | :01:12. | :01:25. | |
rather than things that do - today is one of those occasions. | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
The building of a new nuclear power station at Hinkley Point | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
The board of the French electricity giant EDF was originally scheduled | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
to sign off the ?18 billion construction of Hinkley Point C, | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
It could still happen next month - or after. | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
But clearly there are lingering nerves that it is a project | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
of such a scale that if EDF bungles it, it could destroy the company, | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
notwithstanding all the support the British Government has offered. | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
Now here's the thing - if Hinkley Point is in trouble, | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
We'll be getting perilously short of capacity as it is, | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
and Hinkley is meant to build in 7% of our electricity, | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
but its potential absence leaves a giant hole. | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
has been looking at what's holding it up. | :02:15. | :02:31. | |
Can Britain keep the lights on without it costing a fortune? That | :02:32. | :02:41. | |
concern about a so-called energy gap is a major worry, so it is important | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
that plans for a massive new power plant, Hinkley Point C, now look a | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
bit shakily. You might remember Hinkley, a proposed new nuclear | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
station in Somerset to be built by EDF, the French electricity group. | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
It is supposed to supply 7% of our electricity needs, but a | :03:02. | :03:03. | |
confirmation announcement has been delayed. Welcome to Downing | :03:04. | :03:11. | |
Street... This might prove a serious embarrassment for the Government. | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
Signing a deal with China on Hinkley was a centrepiece of the state visit | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
last year. It is also a major policy. British energy policy | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
currently has three sometimes competing objectives. The first of | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
these is pretty simple, make sure there is enough energy to go round, | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
even as demand increases, as it is expected to do in the coming | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
decades. The second is to reduce carbon in the energy sector, and the | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
third is to achieve the first two objectives without increasing bills | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
for the taxpayer or the electricity consumer. The supply position in | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
Britain is not crisis level in the sense of there being power cuts any | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
day soon. But it is a serious problem in the sense that it costs | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
more to keep the system balanced, prices are higher than they | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
otherwise would have been, and for manufacturing, households, they are | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
paying a price for as sailing so close to the wind. And for any | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
modern economy, you know, there are things you should take for granted. | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
You shouldn't have to question whether there is enough electricity | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
supply. That is why delays to Hinkley are a worry, so what is | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
going on? Hinkley would use a new type of reactor, an EPR, so new that | :04:28. | :04:36. | |
it is not yet running anywhere, and not for want of trying. An EPR | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
project in France is six years late and 7 billion euros over budget, and | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
that is having a huge ramifications for Hinkley. In France, a union with | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
a seat on the EDF board is concerned about whether they can afford a | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
project of this size and the riskiness. The union says Hinkley | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
Point represents a huge investment in terms of the market | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
capitalisation of the group and its financial position. They see | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
financial, industrial and legal risks to the project. There is | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
another reason why foreign progress really matters. If you look through | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
the small print of the deal offered to investors, there are sweeteners | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
from the Government, but they only take full effect if and when those | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
foreign reactors can show that the design for Hinkley Point works. You | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
can see why new delays in France in the past week might make investors | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
nervous, and nuclear is a tough sell for them anyway. Nuclear power | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
stations are difficult to finance for several different reasons, but | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
one of the core ones is that they cost an enormous amount to build, | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
and building is always risky, but key issue for investors is you do | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
not get any cash flow out until you have spent every single penny of the | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
construction business. If you spend a similar amount building or | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
developing a new oil and gas field, you might only spend 20% before you | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
get some oil and gas out, some cash flow. The cost to EDF of raising | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
capital has also risen. This is the changing cost for EDF of borrowing | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
for 15 years since last spring. It used to get debt at 1.5% a year. It | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
does not quite doubled but nearly, 2.75% now. So could we finance | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
Hinkley in any other way? We could have added British component to this | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
project, it could have been an Anglo-French project, it could have | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
been financed by nuclear bonds, financed by the Treasury, and the | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
cost of the capital would have been substantially lower. Unfortunately, | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
that argument has been lost, but we will live with the consequence of | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
choosing the more expensive route for perhaps 60 years as a | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
consequence. But we are where we are, and problems in a French | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
company's work on a French reactor have led to murmurs among investors | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
about the next generation of the British energy infrastructure as | :07:06. | :07:06. | |
well. If the finances of Hinkley Point | :07:07. | :07:07. | |
are challenged right now, remember that the economics | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
of renewable energy also struggle when oil is as cheap | :07:12. | :07:13. | |
as it is right now. We're joined by Jenny Jones | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
of the Green Party and Ed Davey, who was Secretary of State | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
for Energy and Climate Change You were negotiating with EDF on | :07:21. | :07:36. | |
this very project for ages. It was painful, actually, it went on and | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
on, are you surprised that day, after all of that, have stepped back | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
and said, let's think about this at little more? Not really, it is a | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
very congregated deal, a huge decision for them to make, and it is | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
a delay of weeks, rather than months. -- very complicated deal. It | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
is not just about Hinkley Point C, it is linked to what will happen at | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
Sizewell C, it is also linked to Bradwell, the other site in Essex, | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
the Chinese link there. It is a highly complicated deal. I am not | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
surprised that it has been kicked down the road a month or two. They | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
have not got it running in Flamenville or in Finland, massively | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
over budget, massively delayed. Have they bitten off more than they can | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
chew? Hinkley Point C is actually two of these reactors, and they have | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
not got one working yet. The key thing for me was making sure the | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
British consumer was protected, so the British consumer pays nothing | :08:40. | :08:41. | |
until these things start generating, nothing at all. We have also said | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
the contract is not going to happen until Flamenville works. So we have | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
protected the UK. But George Osborne, what he has done since the | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
election, he has got rid of support for renewables, completely abandoned | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
carbon capture and storage. These are low carbon technologies that we | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
put in place to compete, to make sure we were not putting all our | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
eggs in the nuclear basket, and he has played a very irresponsible card | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
with British energy policy. George Osborne is the real villain of this | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
piece. Jenny Jones, you tweeted today, this makes me very happy, the | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
news of the delay. Why did it make you happy? It is a deal that should | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
never have been struck, and it must not go ahead. If this gets built, we | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
will have the most expensive nuclear power plant on earth, and we will | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
also have the most expensive electricity being produced from any | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
technology. It is madness. You mentioned earlier the nuclear | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
solution. It is not a solution, it is the start of a lot more problems. | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
Is that right? I disagree. What is different with this deal from any | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
other nuclear deal in the world is that the decommissioning costs are | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
in the price. The cost of managing the waste are in the price. We will | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
be paying more for decades ahead. It is cheaper than some of the | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
renewables, and, moreover, if you compare it with gas and coal, plus | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
their pollution costs, not just the wholesale price of coal and gas but | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
a carbon price on top, that would be a fair way of doing it, it is | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
completely linked to those prices. He was against nuclear, he came | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
around when he had a job in government and had to work it out. | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
Climate change, if you care about climate change, you should not be | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
taking a low carbon technology off the table. The whole point about | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
nuclear for me is that it has never been cost-effective. It has not | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
stood on its own feet without public subsidy in 60 years, and it is not | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
going to in the future either. The strike price at this power station | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
is going to beat ?92.50 per megawatt. That means, you know, you | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
say the consumer is not paying, but the taxpayer is paying huge amounts | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
of money to subsidise this. This brings us to an interesting | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
question, if you do not want nuclear, you do not want heating to | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
be run by gas, because that is carbon. You do not want cars to run | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
on petrol, what do you want them to run on? When we are looking at how | :11:19. | :11:26. | |
to construct a future that is going to be viable in terms of climate | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
change and the needs of humans, you have to think about renewables, | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
heavily investing. But be clear, you have to replace the nuclear power | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
stations that are falling by the wayside, the Coral, the gas power | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
stations, you have to do that and introduce a enough new power | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
stations to run cars, heat homes, how? Gas is going to be part of the | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
make up for some time, but if we had combined heat and power stations, | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
when we want to down scale gas, we can start bringing in green gas from | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
food waste and so on. Food waste is going to run all the automobiles in | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
the United Kingdom? Let's think about reducing the number of | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
automobiles. You have to remember that our energy needs have gone down | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
in the past few years. That is quite unexpected, when you think the | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
population has gone up, but people are understanding you can save money | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
and save energy, and people are doing it. This government, including | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
the Conservative-Lib Dem coalition, is not invested in installation or | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
reducing people's need. You make a good point. Very kind of you! And | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
you. I am a huge fan of renewables, I commissioned more than any other | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
British politician in history, I am a huge fan of energy at but I am not | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
a clairvoyant, I cannot tell the future. Lots of people think they | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
can, and given climate change is such a threat to humanity, we should | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
have all the low carbon options on the table, including nuclear, | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
including renewables, energy efficiency, carbon capture and | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
storage. What George Osborne is doing, by cutting back on energy | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
efficient renewables, he is bling fast and loose with the climate and | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
fast and loose with energy security. -- he is playing. I am so sorry, we | :13:16. | :13:17. | |
have to stop. Well, Westminster is less gripped | :13:18. | :13:19. | |
by an impending electricity shortage - it's a few years away, after all - | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
it is dominated this week by the tax row that won't go away, | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
Google's tax bill. It came up again at PMQs today. | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
Here's Jeremy Corbyn. I've got a question here, | :13:29. | :13:30. | |
Mr Speaker, Now, you might well laugh, | :13:31. | :13:32. | |
but Geoff actually speaks for millions of people | :13:33. | :13:40. | |
when he says to me, "Can you ask the Prime Minister if | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
as a working man of over 30 years, whether there is a scheme | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
which I can join that pays the same rate of tax as Google | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
and other large corporations?" What does the Prime Minister say | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
to Geoff? Sitting behind David Cameron there, | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
the Chancellor who had called Broadly speaking, the commentariat | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
beg to differ Two representatives of that | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
commentariat are here. Rachel Sylvester from the Times | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
newspaper and Tim Stanley Rachel Sylvester, is this | :14:18. | :14:28. | |
potentially the first issue where Corbyn is going to have something to | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
go with and it will last quite a while? That's right. It is one of | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
the first time it is Corbyn standing up for ordinary people against the | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
elite. George Osborne has got himself on the wrong side of this | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
argument. I think Corbyn is striking a populist note in the way he hasn't | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
on all the issues of national security, defence, and all of the | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
things where he has been alienating Middle England and people will be | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
saying yes, someone saying what we feel. Tim Stanley, there have been | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
lots of people who wouldn't ally themselves with Corbyn, like Rupert | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
Murdoch tweeting today, lining up on the same side. Where is the | :15:06. | :15:12. | |
Telegraph on this taxish yoo u? I don't know you were going to ask me | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
that! If you have a very complicated tax system n the way we do for | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
international taxes, this kind of complication can emerge. We would | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
rather people paid as much tax as they should. This is why this has | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
happened. George Osborne wants to keep businesses in this country. | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
That is why he's cut this deal. Sorry, that is why the HMRC has cut | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
this deal. This is why he described it as a victory. You keep a major | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
company in the country. The problem is, the rest of us pay 20% or 40% | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
when it comes to tax. We don't understand why a company should pay | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
3% when it makes such an extraordinary amount of money. This | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
isn't the first mistake. We discovered that George was mortal | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
when the tax credit issue came up and when the Government was defeated | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
in the Lords. Also, we have seen a reversal through the courts possibly | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
on bedroom tax, too. So all these big welfare changes, which George | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
saw as being real vote winners and clever things to force Labour to the | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
left and make the Government look populist, they could end up haunting | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
him. The Ed Miliband phrase about the Tories are strong when it comes | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
to standing up to the weak and weak when it comes to standing up to the | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
strong. The optics of simultaneously a bedroom tax court case coming in, | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
disabled children and women with domestic violence problems, and the | :16:33. | :16:34. | |
Government says we will appeal against this today. They are | :16:35. | :16:41. | |
declaring, they are trying to defend this tax settlement with Google, it | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
is not good? The Tories underlying fundamental brand problem is they | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
are seen as the party of the rich and they are on the side of the | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
wealthy elite, big business, large international corporations, rather | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
than on the side of the hard-working, ordinary person. They | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
have tried to position themselves as the party of the strivers. Every | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
time this happens, it looks like they are back to that party of the | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
rich image. There are two mistakes in a way. One is, if you want to | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
take the Labour narrative, one is you gave into Google and you had | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
?130 million. The other is, George Osborne thought that was a victory. | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
That is the bit where he is out of touch with everyone else. That is | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
not a victory... That is the tone deafness, isn't it? Osborne is | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
working on an intellectual level which means he is thinking about the | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
economic long-term. He does care passionately about people making | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
money. He is big on entrepreneurs and the Northern Powerhouse. He | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
likes the thought of ordinary people getting ahead. The problem is, it is | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
a cliche, but we have to keep coming back to it. When you haven't worked | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
for a living and relied on welfare, when you haven't done what a lot of | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
ordinary working middle-class people do, you don't connect the dots | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
between welfare charges and what effect they have people's individual | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
lives. That is the piece that is missing with George Osborne. There | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
are people within the Tory Party who support Boris Johnson who are very | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
keen to exploit that. Come on, talk about how this impacts the | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
leadership race. That is what everyone talks about now. It is | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
another example of George Osborne's big flaw which is a lack of | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
emotional intelligence. He is very clever, lots of tactical schemes, | :18:26. | :18:32. | |
but he lacks the empathy for how ordinary people live and an ability | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
to articulate and understanding of that. That is the difference between | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
a leader and a Chancellor. Boris Johnson is the absolute opposite. | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
He's got all the emotional, whatever you want in the world, but he lacks | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
a consistency and discipline. What I find interesting, Osborne seems to | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
exist in cycles, boom-and-bust, there are periods when his stock is | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
so high, and periods when his stock goes down. Before the 2010 election, | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
they were saying is Cameron going to have to dump him? He's changing more | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
than almost any other member of the Cabinet. It is not just the haircut | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
and the diet. And the image makeover. He's gone from being a | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
tactical, hard economic person to being a more Heseltine protege. | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
There is a lack of emotional intelligence underlying that. Is | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
there a split at the party? Some people have said there is such a | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
difference between the Cameron narrative and the Osborne narrative. | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
There is an emerging split. Is that true, Tim? It could be that Cameron | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
had the advantage of an extra day of headlines to see I'm not going to | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
hold the line that Osborne tried holding on Saturday? There is a | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
split of where we go next, what the party is going to look like. The | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
choices between Cameron, which is driven by the search for consensus, | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
and the search for social peace in Britain. There is the libertarian | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
politics of George Osborne which is supported by the creation of a | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
fantastic political machine within Parliament. Osborne will have a lot | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
of supporters because he's put them in important positions of power. | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
There is a challenge coming forward. I'm starting to buy into the | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
narrative that the next leader of the Tory Party will be someone who | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
we have never heard of, but someone who surprises us and hasn't been | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
inside Parliament for a long time. Thank you. | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
This programme has made quite an effort to draw attention | :20:30. | :20:30. | |
to the war in Yemen - to most it probably feels remote, | :20:31. | :20:32. | |
and overshadowed by the cruelty in Syria. | :20:33. | :20:34. | |
But it clearly is something to do with us, as Saudi Arabia is leading | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
the effort to reinstall the old government of Yemen, | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
and Saudi Arabia is using British arms and getting British | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
Today, a major report on the conflict from a UN Panel | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
of Experts was leaked, so we have their view. | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
Gabriel Gatehouse has been reporting on the conflcit - | :20:52. | :20:53. | |
You have a leaked copy of the report. It is quite balanced, isn't | :20:54. | :21:07. | |
it? It is even-handed, it points out the Saudis are supporting the | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
internationally recognised government of Yemen. It blames its | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
opponents for bringing about the crisis and paints a bleak picture. | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
Human rights violations by both sides, proliferation of groups, the | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
use of starvation as a method of warfare. It's the issue of air | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
strikes that critics of UK Government policy have focussed on. | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
They go into some detail. 60% of civilian deaths, 2,682 deaths were | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
caused by air strikes. The Saudis and their allies are the only ones | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
with any air power. When you dig into the detail, you see things like | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
the targeting of refugee camps, schools, buses, markets, mosques, | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
factories and three alleged cases of civilians fleeing residential | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
bombings being chased and shot at by helicopters. It doesn't specifically | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
mention the UK record here. But it is very relevant? It doesn't mention | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
the UK. It calls on the international community to support | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
independent investigations into violations by both sides. The UK | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
sells arms to Saudi Arabia, it doesn't sell arms to the other | :22:18. | :22:38. | |
group. And lawyers said they have given the government until the end | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
of next week to suspend arms exports to Saudi Arabia or else they will | :22:43. | :22:44. | |
issue legal proceedings. Thank you. The Labour Party is particularly | :22:45. | :22:46. | |
concerned at the British role in this war - Jeremy Corbyn raised | :22:47. | :22:48. | |
it at Prime Minister's Questions today, and a little earlier I spoke | :22:49. | :22:50. | |
to the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, who along | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
with Mr Corbyn has today called for a suspension of UK arms | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
sales to Saudi Arabia. I began my asking him what he wants | :22:57. | :22:58. | |
Britain to do now in light Now, other organisations | :22:59. | :22:59. | |
Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, | :23:00. | :23:06. | |
Medecins Sans Frontieres have been reporting what they regard | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
as violations of international humanitarian law, but now we have | :23:11. | :23:12. | |
this expert panel on Yemen, set up by the UN Security Council, | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
saying that they have documented air strikes targeting civilians | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
in breach of international In the light of that, | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
given the weapons that we sell as a country to Saudi Arabia, | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
given the rules that the Government is meant to apply, Jeremy Corbyn | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
and I have today written to the Prime Minister to say | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
you should now carry out an urgent investigation and should suspend any | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
further weapon sales pending The Saudis - and by extension us - | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
are backing the right side in this conflict, in the report, | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
the UN report, it is called Do you support the objective of that | :23:52. | :23:53. | |
government getting back in? I do because that is | :23:54. | :24:00. | |
what the United Nations does. But, in conducting this conflict, | :24:01. | :24:02. | |
and over 7,000 Yemenis have been killed, 2.5 million have had | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
to flee from their homes, there is a grave humanitarian | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
catastrophe, that is what the UN It is really important | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
that the campaign is conducted within international law | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
and there is, of course, an impact on the UK because we have | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
the arms control criteria. That could have a very damaging | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
effect on the long-term British arms trade because people | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
to whom we supply arms may say we can't rely on these people not | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
to be applying strings and terms and conditions after the fact | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
when we want to use them. You have to be honest | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
about that, haven't you? This could be costly in monetary | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
terms even though it might be the right thing to do, | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
in your view? If you have got the criteria that | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
say if there is a clear risk that this may result | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
in the commission of serious breaches of international | :25:00. | :25:01. | |
humanitarian law, the Government's put the rules in place, | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
previous governments have done that as well, they should be applied, | :25:05. | :25:06. | |
you should look at what's happened British Governments have tended | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
to believe the Saudi relationship David Cameron has talked | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
about security, at least one incident he says, terrorist incident | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
here, that has been thwarted I accept the argument | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
that the security co-operation that we have with Saudi Arabia | :25:25. | :25:31. | |
is extremely important. We both face a terrorist threat, | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
lots of countries face a terrorist threat, and therefore effective | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
exchange of information about the nature of that threat, | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
individuals who might be responsible for attacks, | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
of course that is important. What do you do if the Saudis say | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
there is no more defence Well, I hope very much | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
that they would not do that because if breaches of international | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
humanitarian law are proven, and the committee on experts has | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
said today this is what we found, the answer to that is to change | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
what you are doing so you do comply But I hope genuinely that that | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
would not get in the way of the security co-operation | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
which is important to protect our citizens, | :26:10. | :26:11. | |
as well as the citizens of Saudi Arabia, and people right | :26:12. | :26:13. | |
around the world given the nature It brings us to your relationship | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
with Jeremy Corbyn, who is a very principled man on foreign policy, | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
and quite uncompromising The impending issue facing | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
you all is Trident. Is Labour going to have one policy | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
on Trident when it comes to a vote Different members of | :26:33. | :26:41. | |
the Parliamentary Labour Party and different members | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
of the Labour Party hold My view is as follows: I want | :26:46. | :26:47. | |
a world in which there are no nuclear weapons, and | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
so does Jeremy Corbyn. You get there by multi-lateral | :26:52. | :26:53. | |
negotiation, not Not one of the other nuclear states | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
in the world would say if you are giving yours up, | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
we will chuck ours in the bin and, secondly, it's a different world out | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
there and the threat that I grew up with, and many people did, | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
fear of the Soviet Union, that has changed, although we have | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
seen Russia doing certain things that have given rise to concern, | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
but who can say with any certainty what the threats will be in 10, 20, | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
30 or 40 years' time? Would you want a world | :27:24. | :27:26. | |
in which North Korea was the only nation that had nuclear weapons | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
and everyone else has This gets us to the heart | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
of the problem. You have exchanged and espoused | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
the beliefs you have The policy review may come up | :27:37. | :27:38. | |
with the opposite policy which is to get rid of them | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
straightaway, British weapons, Would you be able, | :27:44. | :27:45. | |
as Shadow Foreign Secretary, to stay in the Shadow Cabinet, | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
in that post at least, with such a big difference | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
between you on that issue? Look, I won't answer that now | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
because we don't know what the outcome of | :28:00. | :28:00. | |
the review is going to be. Let us see what the outcome of that | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
review is going to be. It is important that | :28:04. | :28:05. | |
everybody argues their case Are you comfortable now that | :28:06. | :28:07. | |
you have found a working arrangement in the party between independent | :28:08. | :28:14. | |
thought and collective Look, all political parties | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
are coalitions of interest And one of the reasons I think why | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
Jeremy won the election is that people saw someone who was willing | :28:24. | :28:30. | |
to say what he thought, He appointed people | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
to the Shadow Cabinet knowing that on one or two issues they had | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
different views to him. That is a strength of our politics | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
and the most important task we have got at the moment actually | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
is to hold this rotten Government to account because we need | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
a strong opposition, and there is a lot of people out | :28:48. | :28:50. | |
there who are suffering because of what Government is doing | :28:51. | :28:52. | |
and they want to see an effective opposition and that is | :28:53. | :28:54. | |
what we are seeking to do under Hilary Benn, | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
thank you very much. People said when I introduced that | :28:58. | :29:11. | |
item I said Hilary Big Ben. I don't remember doing that, but he is a | :29:12. | :29:12. | |
very tall guy! A sad and intriguing story | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
now from the Pennines. Greater Manchester Police | :29:16. | :29:16. | |
are investigating the mystery of the body of a smartly-dressed | :29:17. | :29:18. | |
elderly man which was found | :29:19. | :29:19. | |
on Saddleworth Moor in December. or the circumstances | :29:20. | :29:21. | |
around his death. But one theory on the man's presence | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
there is that he may have some connection to a plane crash | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
at the site, that was back in 1949. Nick Hopkins has been | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
looking into it. This is one of the last | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
images of him alive. The next day, his body was found | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
lying face up on Saddleworth Moor. The man, apparently around 70 years | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
old, travelled more than 200 miles to get there with no wallet, | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
no phone and no ID. Six weeks on, the police | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
still have no idea who he is. August 1949, a plane travelling | :29:58. | :30:05. | |
from Belfast to Manchester crashes on the edge of | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
the Peak District. We are considering whether | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
the gentleman was a relative Alternatively, there were | :30:14. | :30:20. | |
a few children who survived from the plane crash, and maybe | :30:21. | :30:27. | |
he was one of those people. He would match the age, | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
but there are inquiries ongoing to see if we | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
can discount that. He looked at peace | :30:35. | :30:36. | |
when a passing cyclist found him. Could this possibly have been | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
some kind of pilgrimage? He began his journey at Ealing | :30:44. | :30:45. | |
Broadway Station in west London. He travelled to the | :30:46. | :30:54. | |
capital's Euston Station. He asked for directions | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
to the top of a nearby hill He was seen walking on the path | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
two hours later. The next morning, | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
his body was discovered. This is where the plane | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
came down in 1949. Among the survivors, | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
two were boys back in 1949. One is now dead, | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
the other is Stephen Evans. But it could be - I could understand | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
why people would think But it's not me, and I have no | :31:28. | :31:37. | |
idea who it could be. Newsnight tracked down | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
Professor Evans last night. He rang police to say | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
he is alive and well. Almost certainly, he's the last | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
remaining survivor from the flight. I remember my mother saying to me, | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
as we looked out, that it is cloud outside, | :31:57. | :32:13. | |
when I had suggested it was fog. She said, "No, it is cloud," | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
and the next thing I remember was waking up, and most of the plane | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
seemed to be over there, and my mother was in the seat | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
beside me, unconscious but praying. Stephen Evans's younger brother | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
Roger died in the crash. Yes, he refused to leave the scene | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
until he was sure that everybody who remained there | :32:29. | :32:38. | |
had no hope of being rescued. He insisted on being | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
the last living person to leave. But he had a broken kneecap, | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
and he was crawling round, and immediately after the plane | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
crash, I recall him saying, "We must get out of here | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
before the tanks go up, we must get out of here | :32:58. | :32:59. | |
before the tanks go up." So the man on the hill | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
was not on that flight, though someone close | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
to him could have been. The tragedy is that somebody | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
should be so alone in life that they go off | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
and nobody misses them. Police have had dozens of leads | :33:13. | :33:20. | |
- theories abound. But the truth is | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
they still don't know the identity | :33:28. | :33:29. | |
of the man on Saddleworth Moor. Newsnight has caused | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
quite a stir in Belgium today. All to do with our interview | :33:34. | :33:35. | |
last night with the Greek migration minister, who accused his Belgian | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
counterpart of suggesting migrants should be pushed back into the sea | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
to stop them coming. The Belgian minister concerned, | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
a Flemish nationalist, issued a statement | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
denying he'd said that - But he said he did think migrants | :33:48. | :33:49. | |
who didn't claim asylum should be pushed back | :33:50. | :33:56. | |
to their country of origin. That row shows how sensitive | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
the issue is and fraught for governments | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
across Europe. And it's completely displacing | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
discussion about Britain's possible exit | :34:11. | :34:11. | |
from the EU. Well, earlier today, | :34:12. | :34:13. | |
I sat down with Carl Bildt, former prime minister and foreign | :34:14. | :34:15. | |
secretary of Sweden, a man who's been at the top table | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
of European discussions for decades about both where we are | :34:19. | :34:31. | |
and where are going. I asked him about the tone of | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
debate. I'm disappointed with some | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
of the things that we are seeing, but clearly we have, I think, | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
in the Western electorate, when we look at the American debate, | :34:46. | :34:47. | |
Mr Trump, for example, or Madame Le Pen in France | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
or whatever, we have sort of an angry coterie of our | :34:51. | :34:52. | |
electorate which is dissatisfied with the way our societies | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
have been developing, globalisation, immigration, | :34:56. | :34:57. | |
whatever, and has led to a certain brutalisation of the politics | :34:58. | :34:59. | |
on these issues as well, that other politicians | :35:00. | :35:01. | |
move off in that direction. That is unfortunate, | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
when that happens. One response to this migrant crisis | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
has been for countries to say, let's build fences | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
around our country. There is another response, | :35:13. | :35:20. | |
isn't there? Which says the problem with Schengen | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
was we didn't go far enough, we didn't have a common asylum | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
policy, a common immigration policy, a common passport, | :35:28. | :35:29. | |
a common right to residency. I just wonder whether you think, | :35:30. | :35:31. | |
actually, maybe that is the way the whole thing in the end | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
is going to have to go. I think, over time, it will have | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
to move in that direction, because at the moment, when we | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
have the common Schengen zone, and and we have the principle of asylum | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
policy is supposed to be the same, but the application | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
is very different. Sweden has been extremely | :35:53. | :35:53. | |
generous, others might be That leads to the streams | :35:54. | :35:55. | |
being sort of distorted, so over time we need to move to a | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
truly common European asylum system. Otherwise it's going | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
to be very difficult. I don't think it's going to happen | :36:03. | :36:04. | |
next week, to put it in those terms, We've spoken a lot here | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
about how leaving the EU, Tell us what you think | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
the consequence of a Brexit would be for the rest of Europe - | :36:14. | :36:20. | |
would it be damaging? I think it would be seriously | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
damaging to all of us. Because we are living, | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
as I think we agree, in a more dangerous world, | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
it is more challenging, it is more demanding, | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
it is more dangerous. That means that friends must work | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
together, and if we suddenly see a Europe that starts to fracture, | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
with a significant country leaving, that is going to be | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
a weakened Europe, and in my opinion | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
a more dangerous Europe. The separation negotiations | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
are going to be very, very messy, for the UK to sort out what's going | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
to be the alternative arrangement, and I know there's virtually | :36:59. | :37:08. | |
no debate about that subject, which I think it's vital | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
for the future, if there's | :37:13. | :37:14. | |
going to be anything. This is going to consume a lot | :37:15. | :37:15. | |
of the political energies all over Europe. | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
I mean, take Russia, Ukraine. What we have seen as a consequence, | :37:19. | :37:20. | |
there is no question that the United Kingdom, | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
which is a significant diplomatic and foreign-policy actor, | :37:24. | :37:25. | |
always has been, should be in my opinion, has been otherwise | :37:26. | :37:27. | |
engaged during this particular period, because it is dragged down | :37:28. | :37:29. | |
by this particular debate. Has that been a good thing | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
or a bad thing? In my opinion, | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
it's been a bad thing. We are losing in power | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
and credibility when the UK sort of disappears | :37:43. | :37:44. | |
from the scene and gets bogged down | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
in its own contradictions. Do you think it is possible | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
we would have full access to the single market | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
without free movement of people? And the border issue, | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
to me, is somewhat bizarre, I arrived here on the train | :38:03. | :38:14. | |
from Brussels, and when you go past Calais and enter into the tunnel | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
there, I mean, there is barbed wire, there is barriers, | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
there is police, there is military. The French are controlling | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
the external border and preventing people | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
from coming in. but I had to pass two different | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
checks with passports. I mean, it looks like | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
you have control Right, but we can't stop | :38:39. | :38:40. | |
any number of people, citizens, passport holders of the EU | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
who choose to settle and work here. That is true, that is true, | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
but that is very, very different from the Calais or the Syrian | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
or the refugee crisis. I mean, you have 2.25 million | :38:54. | :38:55. | |
citizens of the EU living and working and contributing | :38:56. | :39:01. | |
to the UK economy, there is in the order | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
of two million UK citizens I am on the board of a think tank, | :39:06. | :39:07. | |
and we have done a study, and they make significant | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
about these things, and they showed I can understand some | :39:15. | :39:28. | |
of the concerns about the refugees We are marking it with a song | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
from British composer of drawings and poems | :39:34. | :39:56. | |
made by the children of Terezin that Pook saw at the | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
Jewish Museum in Prague. was a holding camp for Jews | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
before they were sent east And the words of Birdsong, | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
here performed by the Zemel Choir, # Then if your tears | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
obscure your way | :40:12. | :40:52. |