01/02/2016 Newsnight


01/02/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis. Newsnight is in Iowa for the first primary. Will it be Trump and Clinton?


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It's that time again - the Iowa rush - 48 hours of global

:00:00.:00:07.

And what is, this year, the wackiest presidential

:00:08.:00:12.

We've been on the campaign trail with Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio and

:00:13.:00:26.

Donald Trump. We discuss whether what happens here tonight will

:00:27.:00:30.

dictate the schisms of American politics on the right for years to

:00:31.:00:31.

come. The smugglers give you your boat,

:00:32.:00:45.

give a ten-minute training and a refugee has to man the boat and

:00:46.:00:48.

bring it over here. People are completely left to their own devices

:00:49.:00:50.

in the dark. Tory MP Heidi Allen

:00:51.:00:53.

in Greece and in the studio. We'll ask her - is the Government

:00:54.:00:55.

right to refuse to take in refugee children if they're

:00:56.:00:59.

already in Europe? I never break the law. We have to be

:01:00.:01:07.

very clear about that. I never break the law. I just stretch it a bit.

:01:08.:01:13.

And MPs report on the collapse of Kids Company.

:01:14.:01:16.

It's the people of Iowa - 1% of the US population -

:01:17.:01:28.

who get first dibs on choosing the presidential candidates for each

:01:29.:01:32.

party, and they're making their selection tonight.

:01:33.:01:35.

For the Democrats they do it rather well.

:01:36.:01:37.

In recent decades, their choice of Democrat has turned out to be

:01:38.:01:40.

the ultimate candidate about three quarters of the time.

:01:41.:01:44.

Iowa's not a great predictor of Republican nominations though.

:01:45.:01:47.

It gets the final candidate less than half the time.

:01:48.:01:50.

But never mind that, that's the contest everyone

:01:51.:01:54.

I guess only a fool would leave one general election where the polls got

:01:55.:02:07.

things so wrong and immediately start making predictions about the

:02:08.:02:12.

next, but as things stand, the Des Moines register, the local paper,

:02:13.:02:17.

perhaps the most trusted pollsters on the ground here, are suggesting a

:02:18.:02:20.

comfortable lead for Donald Trump on the Republican side. Now on the

:02:21.:02:24.

Democrat side, it's less clear. Hillary Clinton has been neck and

:02:25.:02:28.

neck with Bernie Sanders, who has crept up on her and let's be honest,

:02:29.:02:33.

on us, in the last month. What will swing things for both these

:02:34.:02:37.

challengers, the outsiders tonight, is how many new comers actually show

:02:38.:02:42.

up to caucus and caucusing is a long and it can be a cold and dreary

:02:43.:02:47.

process. The weather today has been extraordinarily mild, which may

:02:48.:02:50.

encourage more people out than usual. Tonight, we've been exploring

:02:51.:02:56.

the battle for the heart and soul of American politics on the right, the

:02:57.:03:02.

Republican party feels like it's being pulled one way by staunch aye

:03:03.:03:07.

Diyalogs and the other by the larger than life characters and the

:03:08.:03:10.

moderates are lost in the middle. We've been on the trail with the

:03:11.:03:15.

front runner here, Ted Cruz, the Texas centre. We began our --

:03:16.:03:18.

senator. We began our journey there. This is what Texas looks

:03:19.:03:22.

like when it lets its hair down. It's a side of the Lone

:03:23.:03:25.

Star State you don't often see, but once a year

:03:26.:03:28.

Galveston, on the Gulf of Mexico, bursts into ten days of carnival,

:03:29.:03:30.

bringing some 300,000 people out But this time around even

:03:31.:03:33.

Mardi Gras faces stiff For sheer colour, excitement

:03:34.:03:37.

and unpredictability, well, nothing beats the Republican

:03:38.:03:43.

race for President. There's only one person

:03:44.:03:47.

and that's the Donald. Because he has the

:03:48.:03:50.

vision for America. He's going to tell the people

:03:51.:03:59.

what he's going to do, Finally, we get someone

:04:00.:04:01.

that's not a politician - Because he tells it

:04:02.:04:06.

like it is, he's honest. To those on the right who feel

:04:07.:04:17.

America has lost its way, become too liberal, too politically

:04:18.:04:20.

correct or just too broken, Please welcome the next President

:04:21.:04:23.

of the United States, And whilst it's hard to know

:04:24.:04:32.

whether Trump is the symptom or the cause, his presence

:04:33.:04:37.

is ripping the grand old party The Republican Party itself

:04:38.:04:40.

is in the midst of an identity There is deep mistrust

:04:41.:04:44.

of the institutions it espouses, government corporations, banks,

:04:45.:04:53.

and of the people at its helm, the Bushs, the Romneys,

:04:54.:04:56.

the Ryans, who are seen as too So the GOP's unenviable

:04:57.:04:58.

choice at this point is between a candidate

:04:59.:05:04.

hell-bent on destroying the party from within, and a candidate that

:05:05.:05:08.

they pretty universally despise. That latter figure

:05:09.:05:14.

is the Texas Senator, fiercely intelligent, with an appeal

:05:15.:05:17.

to the evangelical right. He's been neck and neck

:05:18.:05:22.

with Trump in Iowa. He prides himself on being

:05:23.:05:25.

the one Washington hates. We're at the edge of a cliff,

:05:26.:05:28.

and if we keep going another four or eight more years,

:05:29.:05:30.

we risk doing irreparable damage to the greatest country

:05:31.:05:34.

in the history of Ted Cruz appealed to this crowd

:05:35.:05:36.

by telling them that Ronald Reagan was the candidate

:05:37.:05:41.

that Washington hated. He said, "Don't trust any candidate

:05:42.:05:43.

that tells you Washington's Yet this is a man who

:05:44.:05:50.

worked for the Supreme Court, worked for Bush,

:05:51.:05:57.

has attended the establishment in the form of Harvard

:05:58.:05:59.

and Princeton. He calls himself

:06:00.:06:01.

the antiestablishment candidate, and yet, some would say,

:06:02.:06:04.

he is very firmly part of it. He perhaps lacks some

:06:05.:06:07.

of the interpersonal skills that Although family members, as we know,

:06:08.:06:09.

can be notorious tricky to tame. On a one-to-one basis,

:06:10.:06:14.

I am very fond of Ted, but I think his public persona,

:06:15.:06:18.

on the campaign trail, a lot of people find

:06:19.:06:22.

off-putting, because So adamant about his positions,

:06:23.:06:25.

and he's reflecting the anger He was running for Congress

:06:26.:06:31.

at the same time Cruz He's a guy that you wouldn't

:06:32.:06:40.

necessarily want to go down the pub in England and have a point

:06:41.:06:45.

with, but if you want him on your side - as a fighter -

:06:46.:06:49.

you definitely would engage him. Those who engage with him

:06:50.:06:52.

are predominantly those The anger of the most pessimistic

:06:53.:06:55.

here are the ones we used to call middle Americans -

:06:56.:07:05.

the middle-aged, middle-class, neither rich nor poor,

:07:06.:07:09.

you can measure their pessimism in the polls when you ask

:07:10.:07:12.

them about their expectations for their lives and

:07:13.:07:15.

for their children. It's those blue-collar,

:07:16.:07:17.

white workers who normally express In Texas that anger is intensified,

:07:18.:07:21.

by a sense that Washington's doing Bob, a retired dentist,

:07:22.:07:26.

now breeds Texas Longhorns. He thinks the party has

:07:27.:07:30.

squandered its power. The way the vote has

:07:31.:07:38.

gone in Congress, since we have a Republican

:07:39.:07:40.

majority in Congress, they just don't seem to be doing

:07:41.:07:43.

the job that we thought they were going to do

:07:44.:07:46.

when they were elected. And so, there's a lot

:07:47.:07:48.

of the crossing over between, crossing over between the lines,

:07:49.:07:51.

that I don't think the Republicans We leave Texas and head

:07:52.:07:54.

for the snowy plains of Iowa, and I start to understand the scale

:07:55.:08:09.

of the party's dilemma. Republicans control

:08:10.:08:13.

the vast majority of legislative posts in this country,

:08:14.:08:17.

as well as the Senate and Congress, yet they don't feel

:08:18.:08:20.

they have control. They see the country

:08:21.:08:23.

moving to the left - gay marriage, Obamacare,

:08:24.:08:26.

the softening towards Iran. They're scared, and they're divided

:08:27.:08:30.

on how to get it back. We had this idea that

:08:31.:08:35.

you had the establishment on one hand, and the

:08:36.:08:38.

base on the other. There's the ideological conservative

:08:39.:08:40.

base, and that is what Ted Cruz Then there's the base that has been

:08:41.:08:45.

tapped into by Donald Trump, and by Sarah Pailin

:08:46.:08:51.

before him, which is much more about attitudes,

:08:52.:08:53.

about wanting to return to the past, about resentment

:08:54.:08:56.

of social change, and that is not something that's really based

:08:57.:08:59.

on conservative policy views, People have a right to be angry,

:09:00.:09:01.

but anger alone is not And don't write off

:09:02.:09:09.

the establishment friendly Marco Rubio, making a dig

:09:10.:09:13.

here at his angry rivals. Mainstream conservatives are looking

:09:14.:09:18.

to him to unify the party, but it's a big weight for relatively

:09:19.:09:24.

small shoulders. There's a sense the flicker

:09:25.:09:26.

of hope right now comes not from the prospective present,

:09:27.:09:29.

but from ghosts of the past. In his inaugural

:09:30.:09:31.

address, another Texas son, one George Herbert Walker Bush

:09:32.:09:35.

spoke of a thousand points of light, the old ideas,

:09:36.:09:38.

he said, are new again It was a speech of community,

:09:39.:09:42.

of cohesion, a very different rhetoric from the kind

:09:43.:09:47.

we are hearing from Donald Trump or Ted Cruz today,

:09:48.:09:50.

who speak of exclusion, History may come to regard

:09:51.:09:53.

the result tonight as a mere footnote, but that wider question,

:09:54.:09:59.

whether the party can heal itself or must divide in two, well that may

:10:00.:10:06.

not fade so fast. Eights' unpick a few of those ideas.

:10:07.:10:11.

# With me now is the Washington Post's

:10:12.:10:14.

political correspondent and lead reporter on the Clinton

:10:15.:10:17.

campaign, Anne Gearan. We start by looking at what you

:10:18.:10:23.

think is at the heart of this struggle in the Republican Party

:10:24.:10:25.

now. Do you think the fractions are there to stay? The fractions are

:10:26.:10:30.

much more on display in this cycle and right here in Iowa than they

:10:31.:10:35.

have been in a while. The underlying divisions have been there for a long

:10:36.:10:40.

time. There is a war within the Republican Party that has been there

:10:41.:10:44.

in varying degrees through the last few cycles. We've seen it with the

:10:45.:10:50.

Tea Party phenomenon. We've always seen it in Iowa, where there is a

:10:51.:11:00.

dispour portionately -- disproportionately conservative,

:11:01.:11:02.

Republican base and a democratic one. What's interesting from the

:11:03.:11:06.

outside, we always think of religion playing a key role in US elections,

:11:07.:11:12.

this time, here in Iowa, even with the evangelical vote being so

:11:13.:11:15.

strong, it looks like Donald Trump may have the upper hand. Yes, Donald

:11:16.:11:21.

Trump has never been a favourite of religious conservatives. But he's

:11:22.:11:24.

claiming that mantle now, which is very interesting, since there are

:11:25.:11:27.

two other Republicans in the race, Ted Cruz and Mike Huckerbee who are

:11:28.:11:32.

creatures this afternoon very part of the Republican party and have

:11:33.:11:40.

actually three, Rick Santorum is still in the race, each of them can

:11:41.:11:45.

claim the mantle of evangelical favourite. However, Donald Trump is

:11:46.:11:49.

running ahead of them and has been for the most part here for months.

:11:50.:11:54.

So that's actually one thing that a lot of Republicans are watching, is

:11:55.:12:01.

this election the end of the evangelical Christian dominance of

:12:02.:12:07.

the Iowa caucuses. The more favoured candidate is Marco Rubio, possibly

:12:08.:12:12.

Jeb Bush. Can Marco Rubio come through maybe from third place here

:12:13.:12:17.

and still become the nominee? Yeah, as you know, one thing, The

:12:18.:12:20.

interesting thing about Iowa is that the person who places second or

:12:21.:12:24.

third often is really judged the winner, because of the way the

:12:25.:12:27.

caucuses work and the expectations that they set up. So if is as we

:12:28.:12:37.

expect a close contest between Cruz and Trump at the top, whoever is

:12:38.:12:40.

number three, will be able to say it's two races, it's those guys and

:12:41.:12:45.

then it's the establishment candidates and I, whoever the person

:12:46.:12:50.

is that is number three, have the establishment mantle. Rubio would

:12:51.:12:55.

very much like it to be him. I think Jeb is too far down for it to be

:12:56.:13:00.

him. One thing that would stop us dead is if Bernie Sanders wins here

:13:01.:13:04.

tonight against Hillary, could he? He could win here. It's looking less

:13:05.:13:10.

likely that he does than a week or ten days ago, when he was running

:13:11.:13:15.

ahead of her outside the margin of error in most polls. Now he is even

:13:16.:13:19.

with her, slightly ahead in one or two polls. She's slightly ahead in

:13:20.:13:24.

the most recent gold standard poll, but still within the margin of

:13:25.:13:28.

error. They are neck and neck. He's taunted young people in his crowds

:13:29.:13:32.

by saying, we can prove the pollsters wrong. They say young

:13:33.:13:34.

people don't come out to vote, you can. Do you think he'll get the new

:13:35.:13:38.

comers in bigger numbers than anyone can imagine? He will definitely get

:13:39.:13:43.

a lot of new comers. He's banking on getting enough to really change the

:13:44.:13:48.

dynamic that seems to be set, where Clinton has a better, more

:13:49.:13:52.

organised, more established operation here, which historically

:13:53.:13:56.

has been the key to actually making it work on caucus night. It's a

:13:57.:14:01.

labour-intensive process. It's a very organisation-heavy process.

:14:02.:14:06.

It's a hands-on process, where each campaign calls people over and over

:14:07.:14:10.

and over again, drives them to the caucus, stands outside the caucus

:14:11.:14:14.

doors, tries to ensure that their people gets in there. That takes a

:14:15.:14:18.

lot of people, volunteers. It usually takes a lot of older,

:14:19.:14:22.

established Democrats that are willing to do that. That's not what

:14:23.:14:26.

Sanders has in numbers right now. Great to have you here, thank you

:14:27.:14:31.

very much indeed for your thoughts. It is a complicated business that

:14:32.:14:35.

lies ahead of us, both the counting and indeed the caucusing itself. We

:14:36.:14:40.

go from here to a rural farmhouse in Iowa, where we're invited into a

:14:41.:14:44.

home to watch the Democrats caucus there. It could take a few minutes,

:14:45.:14:48.

but it's more likely to take several hours. A snowstorm is forecast for

:14:49.:14:53.

later tonight. We'll see just how many people turn out. From there,

:14:54.:14:57.

Donald Trump is holding a celebration Iowa caucus party. If he

:14:58.:15:01.

doesn't win, that all becomes a bit more problematic. We'll have a

:15:02.:15:04.

better sense of that this time tomorrow.

:15:05.:15:08.

Back in Europe, a process not quite as lengthy as the US presidential

:15:09.:15:14.

selection, but that looks every bit as carefully stage-managed,

:15:15.:15:16.

It takes us from potential president, Donald Trump,

:15:17.:15:24.

to the less colourful EU Council president,

:15:25.:15:26.

He's said he'll table proposals tomorrow noon,

:15:27.:15:30.

after a lot of talking in recent days.

:15:31.:15:32.

Does that mean it's settled?

:15:33.:15:33.

It's really hard to know what's real and what is expectation management.

:15:34.:15:37.

But broadly, the rule is that the odds are against us,

:15:38.:15:40.

and the situation is grim, but magically,

:15:41.:15:41.

In this case, on the hot-button issue of curbing benefits

:15:42.:15:45.

Now we're all focussing on that like it matters.

:15:46.:15:50.

Here's our political editor, David Grossman.

:15:51.:15:53.

For the purposes of this EU referendum there are really two

:15:54.:15:56.

One has the job of negotiating a deal with the EU, the other,

:15:57.:16:04.

the job of selling it to the British people.

:16:05.:16:07.

The chances of David two being successful,

:16:08.:16:09.

depend on David one playing the part of someone who fought hard,

:16:10.:16:15.

banged the table even, threatened to walk away

:16:16.:16:17.

but ultimately pulled off a spectacular victory in the teeth

:16:18.:16:21.

So it was last night in Downing Street that the Prime

:16:22.:16:25.

Minister held talks with EU Council President Donald Tusk,

:16:26.:16:29.

These were the photographs handed out to the media.

:16:30.:16:33.

And look, they didn't even have time to eat

:16:34.:16:35.

It's all with helpful for the sense of spectacle on these occasions

:16:36.:16:41.

if one of the parties can rush out proclaiming that there's

:16:42.:16:43.

And I suppose a tweet wouldn't hurt either,

:16:44.:16:53.

encouraging signals were run up the EU flag pole.

:16:54.:16:56.

What do you know, the deal has been done - a draft text will now be

:16:57.:17:00.

It's already clear that whatever this text says when it is published,

:17:01.:17:04.

will be a long way from what the Prime Minister said

:17:05.:17:07.

he was looking for when he began the renegotiation process.

:17:08.:17:10.

Initially, David Cameron wanted to tackle EU migration into Britain

:17:11.:17:13.

There were, he said, two distinct problems.

:17:14.:17:19.

One is movement to claim benefits, we need to crack down on that.

:17:20.:17:22.

But I think secondly what's gone wrong, and I don't think the people

:17:23.:17:28.

who founded the EU ever believed this was going to happen,

:17:29.:17:31.

is the scale of the movements have been so big.

:17:32.:17:33.

So as well as stopping EU migrants claiming in-work benefits for four

:17:34.:17:37.

years to tackle the first problem, he said he needed to get fundamental

:17:38.:17:41.

reform to the EU's free movement of people.

:17:42.:17:45.

No longer would EU citizens, he said, be able to come to Britain

:17:46.:17:48.

We want EU job-seekers to have a job offer before they come here,

:17:49.:17:54.

and to stop UK taxpayers having to support them if they don't.

:17:55.:17:59.

But perhaps there was an omen as he delivered that speech,

:18:00.:18:02.

as he got to the section on reforming free movement

:18:03.:18:04.

But freedom of movement has never been an unqualified right,

:18:05.:18:10.

and we now need to allow it to operate on a more sustainable

:18:11.:18:14.

basis, in the light of experience in recent years.

:18:15.:18:18.

That doesn't mean a closed-door regime.

:18:19.:18:20.

An alarm also went off in the chancelleries of

:18:21.:18:22.

The Government's original proposal was to limit free movement,

:18:23.:18:37.

but it was quite clear that that was simply not acceptable

:18:38.:18:42.

to a majority of our European partners, so they've falled back

:18:43.:18:44.

on this divisive limiting access for migrants to the benefit system,

:18:45.:18:47.

which may save a small amount of money, but is unlikely to have

:18:48.:18:50.

And that conclusion, that limiting in-work benefits

:18:51.:18:56.

will do nothing to dissuade EU migrants from coming to the UK,

:18:57.:19:00.

is one shared by other economists, including Sir Stephen Nickell

:19:01.:19:03.

at the Office for Budget Responsibility.

:19:04.:19:06.

You're asking me what impact that's likely to have?

:19:07.:19:10.

And for MPs who want to leave the EU, the benefits issue is just

:19:11.:19:19.

What they want to do is control immigration from the EU,

:19:20.:19:30.

allowing who they want to allow in and stop people who they don't

:19:31.:19:33.

It's a numbers game, it has nothing to do with benefits.

:19:34.:19:37.

It's really a sideshow to the argument that is actually out

:19:38.:19:40.

Conservative MPs who want Britain to remain in the EU are not

:19:41.:19:43.

Instead, their case is about Britain's

:19:44.:19:46.

I'm a reluctant inner, if you like...

:19:47.:19:50.

I think the vast majority of the Parliamentary party

:19:51.:19:52.

are Eurosceptic, but will, in the end, decide that

:19:53.:19:55.

for strategic regions, geopolitical reasons,

:19:56.:20:01.

that Britain's best interests' are served at the heart of Europe,

:20:02.:20:04.

ensuring France and Germany don't dominate foreign policy or diplomacy

:20:05.:20:07.

or even trade policy, so the majority I think will vote

:20:08.:20:09.

The question is, how much will the public care or notice

:20:10.:20:21.

the continuing shifting emphasis of these negotiations?

:20:22.:20:23.

Indeed, how much will voters focus on substance at all,

:20:24.:20:25.

Well David is here to give us the latest.

:20:26.:20:32.

In case there is any late news. Tomorrow at noon, Donald Tusk

:20:33.:20:42.

bringing forward his offer to the UK. Is there any briefing tonight?

:20:43.:20:46.

What we have tonight is one aspect of what will be on that, which is

:20:47.:20:50.

about something the Prime Minister and others in Europe are pushing

:20:51.:20:53.

for, a wave of national parliaments getting together and blocking

:20:54.:20:58.

something they don't like. Something addressing the crisis of legitimacy

:20:59.:21:03.

in the EU. At the moment the EU's responses to strengthen the role of

:21:04.:21:07.

the EU Parliament, but fewer people vote in the EU Parliament than vote

:21:08.:21:10.

for national parliaments. What they have this idea is 55% of EU

:21:11.:21:16.

parliaments can come together and block a measure. Downing Street this

:21:17.:21:23.

is a big move for them and a victory for the Prime Minister, in terms of

:21:24.:21:29.

that low threshold. The question is, is 55% going to block much? People I

:21:30.:21:33.

have been speaking to suggest it may not. At the moment we already have

:21:34.:21:42.

35% as a blocking minority in the Council of ministers. 35% as opposed

:21:43.:21:47.

to 55%. Also one think tank suggested last year it should be

:21:48.:21:55.

lower than a third, even lower than 30%, if you want to get a real red

:21:56.:22:00.

card system. In a word, benefits, the one everyone is talking about.

:22:01.:22:07.

Any word? I'm afraid not. We will wait until tomorrow. Thank you.

:22:08.:22:10.

The sad story of Kids Company has been written up

:22:11.:22:12.

The children's charity carried so many hopes and promised so much

:22:13.:22:16.

Its fate was substantially sealed by reports on this programme

:22:17.:22:19.

The Public Adminstration Committee report tries to point some blame

:22:20.:22:23.

We will look at some of those shortly. First more on Kids Company

:22:24.:22:35.

itself from Chris Cooke. The tale of Kids Company's collapse

:22:36.:22:37.

is now in its final chapters. This week on Wednesday a BBC

:22:38.:22:40.

documentary on Camila Batmanghelidjh, its Chief

:22:41.:22:42.

Executive, will air. We have to be very clear about that,

:22:43.:22:43.

I never break the law, And today, the House of Commons'

:22:44.:22:48.

Public Administrations Committee The MPs are scathing

:22:49.:22:56.

about the charity's management, but also about the auditors

:22:57.:23:02.

who looked at its books and the regulator for

:23:03.:23:05.

the charity sector. But they are most critical

:23:06.:23:07.

of the charity's trustees. In fact, they go as far to suggest

:23:08.:23:10.

that the Charity Commission should look at whether they should be

:23:11.:23:14.

banned from ever being It just feels like such a huge

:23:15.:23:16.

shame, because so many of the relationships,

:23:17.:23:25.

especially that key workers had, with their clients were really

:23:26.:23:32.

important and had huge benefit, and it just seems, the way

:23:33.:23:34.

that it closed down, as well as the fact it closed down,

:23:35.:23:37.

just seems like young people The report rehearses the familiar

:23:38.:23:40.

rap sheet of inflated client numbers, generosity to a few

:23:41.:23:44.

favourites, and weak This footage from the documentary

:23:45.:23:45.

shows cash and vouchers being delivered and then

:23:46.:23:49.

handed out to clients. The charity blamed its collapse

:23:50.:23:57.

on a police investigation into abuse allegations, triggered

:23:58.:24:01.

by a report by this programme, and dropped by the police

:24:02.:24:04.

without charges brought. But the MPs say the charity

:24:05.:24:07.

collapsed because it was just so financially feeble,

:24:08.:24:10.

unable to cope with any shocks. The trustees had failed to rein

:24:11.:24:14.

in their Chief Executive. In fact, in late 2014

:24:15.:24:19.

Ms Batmanghelidjh refused financial help from a big multimillionaire

:24:20.:24:22.

donor because she said the potential At the time Kids Company had

:24:23.:24:25.

a ?4 million deficit, a gap eventually covered

:24:26.:24:32.

with public money. The MPs also said that they believed

:24:33.:24:35.

the charity had problems safeguarding its clients,

:24:36.:24:38.

and that is an accusation that is particularly

:24:39.:24:40.

galling to the trustees, because just last week

:24:41.:24:43.

the Metropolitan Police dropped an investigation into the charity

:24:44.:24:45.

and stated it found no evidence MPs listened to different people,

:24:46.:24:49.

they spoke to government officials and former employees

:24:50.:24:55.

and they reached The MPs were exercised by poor

:24:56.:24:56.

whistle-blowing practice, as in the case with Helen Winter,

:24:57.:25:02.

who tribunal found gave a Class A drug to a

:25:03.:25:05.

client in a nightclub. A colleague attempted to blow

:25:06.:25:08.

the whistle about it. Camila directed me to confront

:25:09.:25:11.

Dr Winter at the Academy, that same day, in order to try

:25:12.:25:16.

and get her to admit to what she had After that HR instigated

:25:17.:25:19.

an investigation into what had happened, and they employed somebody

:25:20.:25:26.

who was meant to be an independent investigator, but who actually had

:25:27.:25:30.

strong ties to Kids Alan Yentob, Chair of the Trustees,

:25:31.:25:33.

gets particular blame from the MPs. Notably for his attempts

:25:34.:25:40.

in the summer to influence BBC journalists, including on Newsnight,

:25:41.:25:43.

while he was BBC Creative Director. They say that a senior figure

:25:44.:25:49.

could act in this way, and it could take so long

:25:50.:25:51.

for action to be taken, reflects poorly on

:25:52.:25:54.

the BBC's leadership. The MPs were also critical

:25:55.:25:55.

of ministers at Kids Company who received more than ?40 million

:25:56.:26:02.

of public money during its life. They are particularly interested

:26:03.:26:16.

in a ?3 million grant made by the Cabinet Office

:26:17.:26:18.

to Kids Company just days A grant signed off by Oliver Letwin

:26:19.:26:21.

and Matthew Hancock The committee hint that

:26:22.:26:24.

the political preference for Kids Company came right

:26:25.:26:27.

from the top. They note, in letters

:26:28.:26:29.

to Camila Batmanghelidjh in 2011, 2013 and 2014, the Prime Minister

:26:30.:26:31.

expressed his personal support for the charity, and ministers

:26:32.:26:33.

struggled to invent a rationale If I was a minister assessing

:26:34.:26:36.

Kids Company for a grant, I would have been looking

:26:37.:26:39.

for accurate monitoring, so good use of numbers,

:26:40.:26:43.

clearly reported, using sound methodology, and I would have been

:26:44.:26:46.

looking for outcomes measurement. I would have been looking for them

:26:47.:26:50.

to show, in some way, not causal, but at least correlations,

:26:51.:26:54.

between the work that they were doing, and the effects

:26:55.:26:56.

that was having an young You repeatedly said that

:26:57.:26:59.

Kids Company were doing good work. As I say, I had personal and direct

:27:00.:27:03.

experience of talking Now the trustees say

:27:04.:27:10.

the MPs report is biased, partial and ignored their evidence,

:27:11.:27:24.

but the committee is clear - they don't want

:27:25.:27:30.

another Kids Company. And you saw some clips of a BBC

:27:31.:27:32.

documentary into Kids Company there. That'll be shown on BBC One

:27:33.:27:38.

on Wednesday at 9pm. I'm joined now by Bernard Jenkin,

:27:39.:27:45.

chair of the Public Accounts The Independent columnist who has

:27:46.:27:56.

seen first-hand some of the work Kids Company did. Some people think

:27:57.:28:03.

that if it hadn't been for that police investigation, Kids Company

:28:04.:28:06.

would still be operating now. The police did in the end to save no

:28:07.:28:09.

need to take action, is that your view? Yes. In the post-Jimmy Savile

:28:10.:28:16.

era as soon as there is a whiff of scandal to do with sex and children,

:28:17.:28:22.

of course everybody, and quite rightly, begins to go into

:28:23.:28:26.

overdrive. But it did unfortunately set something up, which in the

:28:27.:28:32.

end... I'm just so sorry and sad for those kids who really depended on

:28:33.:28:38.

the work that was being done. I just don't buy this idea that whatever

:28:39.:28:44.

was going on was exaggerated. I talked to a lot of those kids. I

:28:45.:28:49.

went one morning just before seven, I have never had a single cup of

:28:50.:28:56.

Coffey with Camila or Alan Yentob, I am not in their circle. I am often

:28:57.:29:01.

accused of being a lovely, I don't know them and they are not my

:29:02.:29:05.

friends. But the thing that really struck me was the kids came last, if

:29:06.:29:10.

they ever came at all. And the committee should have spoken to some

:29:11.:29:16.

of the children, the older children. On that one specifically? I think

:29:17.:29:23.

they were very mindful of the fact that at the end of this, there were

:29:24.:29:31.

children in very difficult circumstances. I promise you, this

:29:32.:29:35.

was something that occupied us. It was very easy to get carried away

:29:36.:29:39.

with all the things that went wrong. We kept reminding ourselves, this

:29:40.:29:44.

charity probably did a lot of good work and we heard from a lot of the

:29:45.:29:48.

employees who had done a lot of that good work. One of the things we say

:29:49.:29:52.

in our report is what has been learned by this charity must not be

:29:53.:29:58.

lost. We met some people who were setting up some sort of continuation

:29:59.:30:02.

of the good things that the charity did. We referred to that in our

:30:03.:30:06.

report, because we think that is an important message. You think the

:30:07.:30:11.

charity would have collapsed anyway, if it wasn't for the police

:30:12.:30:16.

investigation? About the doubt. It was living a completely hand to

:30:17.:30:21.

mouth existence. Every time any money came in, the evidence we

:30:22.:30:25.

received was that the money just went out the door, one way or

:30:26.:30:30.

another it was spent, because the priority of the charity was always

:30:31.:30:34.

the kids. That was understandable, that was noble, but if your priority

:30:35.:30:38.

is so much the case, you're not actually thinking about the

:30:39.:30:40.

interests of the charity, the interests of the employees. The

:30:41.:30:45.

interest of your creditors. You have to think about that as well. I think

:30:46.:30:49.

you are right, of course. There were a lot of short cuts taken. Camila

:30:50.:30:58.

Batmanghelidjh, got swept away, but at the end of the day this was about

:30:59.:31:03.

children who nobody could love. I couldn't love them. They were not

:31:04.:31:07.

easy children. How do you measure, how do you measure giving hope to a

:31:08.:31:11.

person who is ripped apart? How many of them? I don't know, I

:31:12.:31:21.

don't speak for them. I know that the kids I met - and I met a lot

:31:22.:31:25.

over the years - were the kind of kids nobody else could help. They

:31:26.:31:30.

were unloved by their own families. Local authorities couldn't reach

:31:31.:31:33.

them and although I completely understand what the committee was

:31:34.:31:39.

trying to do, if I may say so, sometimes Select Committees which is

:31:40.:31:42.

a great system, become theatrical themselves. I think yours did. Were

:31:43.:31:48.

you part of the echo chamber? Clearly there was a lot of media

:31:49.:31:52.

attention going on. Have you just howled back to the media what they

:31:53.:31:55.

were telling you? I was more worried about the evidence session with

:31:56.:32:01.

Allan Yentob than any other session I have sat on. I was worried it

:32:02.:32:07.

would become a circus. So we decided that our questions were going to be

:32:08.:32:12.

very practical, very down to earth, quite forensic, just looking for the

:32:13.:32:19.

information. That, in a way, kept the thing sensible, because it was

:32:20.:32:23.

always in danger of going off track that evidence session. It didn't

:32:24.:32:26.

feel like that if you were watching it. Also, before you'd had the

:32:27.:32:33.

LSC... But it was our witnesses. The justice, whatever it's called. The

:32:34.:32:38.

social justice commission. Academics, practitioners and

:32:39.:32:40.

including civil servants, who had looked at the work of the

:32:41.:32:44.

organisation. There's a long history of civil servants looking at this

:32:45.:32:47.

and thinking, this is very difficult to assess, whether the outcomes -

:32:48.:32:53.

exactly what we heard on that film that from the former employee that

:32:54.:32:57.

there wasn't a proper assessment of outcomes. The reports you're

:32:58.:33:01.

referring to - The LSC report was amazing. The LSC report, social

:33:02.:33:07.

justice commission report, they identified individual cases where

:33:08.:33:10.

good work was being done and you could argue there was a gap in the

:33:11.:33:13.

statutory provision which is what the charity was about. But it didn't

:33:14.:33:17.

address the failing that's the trustees should have known about.

:33:18.:33:21.

You have said the trustees or it should be looked at whether they

:33:22.:33:25.

should be trustees of charities again, I want to can you a question

:33:26.:33:32.

- what about Oliver Letwin, who OKKed money, overroad civil servants

:33:33.:33:36.

and wanted to give taxpayer money to this charity, they said not unless

:33:37.:33:41.

you have written instructions. What's the sanction for him? In a

:33:42.:33:47.

way, we've tried not to cast blame on individual trustees. What's your

:33:48.:33:53.

personal view? I will explain this. We wanted to learn owons. In the

:33:54.:33:58.

same -- lessons. In the same way we approached what civil servants did,

:33:59.:34:02.

we wanted to learn lessons. You gave lessons out to the trustees and not

:34:03.:34:05.

willing to give it to the politicians. No, where there is a

:34:06.:34:10.

close political relationship with a high profile charity, ministers

:34:11.:34:13.

shouldn't have anything to do with the decision to funding to those

:34:14.:34:17.

charities. There were conflicts as interests, just as we complain about

:34:18.:34:20.

it in the BBC, there were conflicts of interest that ministers had that

:34:21.:34:25.

should have prevented their making these decisions. Do you think there

:34:26.:34:29.

are other charities, other kids companies out there, very good at

:34:30.:34:35.

raising money... Thgs the main message for them, in all these

:34:36.:34:38.

organisations, there are powerful people who are very persuasive and

:34:39.:34:42.

the one thing the Charity Commission says is you shouldn't allow your

:34:43.:34:47.

judgment as a trustee could be swayed by your personal prejudices

:34:48.:34:50.

or a powerful and influential person. And you shouldn't

:34:51.:34:55.

characterise, sorry, you've described the kids company in a way

:34:56.:34:58.

that I would argue is terribly biassed. Ive don't agree with that

:34:59.:35:03.

characterisation at all. Fair point. Point made. Thank you both. It's a

:35:04.:35:08.

very sad story from which we should learn a lot. It will come back. She

:35:09.:35:09.

will come back. All right. OK. Have the British done their bit

:35:10.:35:14.

for refugees that have Or is it better to help those

:35:15.:35:16.

stranded nearer Syria? The Conservative MP

:35:17.:35:20.

for South Cambridgeshire, Heidi Allen - elected

:35:21.:35:22.

for the first time last year - has been taking a close interest

:35:23.:35:24.

in the refugee situation and she's just spent the weekend

:35:25.:35:27.

on the Greek island of Lesbos with Save the Children,

:35:28.:35:30.

getting a close look at life in camps there, particularly

:35:31.:35:32.

for the unaccompanied children. This is the first thing that

:35:33.:35:35.

struck me, actually. Some of these boats from a distance

:35:36.:35:37.

look like they are in really good condition, but when you get

:35:38.:35:45.

up close and personal, I don't know whether you can see

:35:46.:35:47.

in there, but that is the most evocative thing I have seen

:35:48.:35:53.

so far, just the discarded There is a little kid's shoe over

:35:54.:35:56.

there, and this is a boat I can't even imagine how many

:35:57.:36:01.

people have crammed onto, on a journey that would take

:36:02.:36:03.

anything from an hour to ten hours Here's the thing, the smugglers give

:36:04.:36:06.

you your boat, give someone a brief ten-minute training,

:36:07.:36:11.

and then a refugee themselves has to man this boat and bring

:36:12.:36:12.

it over here. And that I find staggering,

:36:13.:36:15.

that people are completely left to their own devices,

:36:16.:36:17.

in the dark, they have no idea where they are going and just hoping

:36:18.:36:20.

to reach land on the other side. So this is Kara Tepe camp,

:36:21.:36:23.

on Lesbos, which is where families come once they have been

:36:24.:36:27.

registered on arrival. Some people will be here

:36:28.:36:31.

literally just for a day, and then they are on boats

:36:32.:36:34.

to the next point of their journey It is a tremendous facility,

:36:35.:36:38.

actually, and the loveliest part is that Save The Children managed

:36:39.:36:45.

to find a small space for children to play, toys -

:36:46.:36:51.

they can draw, they can paint. Some really beautiful paintings,

:36:52.:36:54.

but some very, very But that's part of the process here,

:36:55.:36:56.

to try and help the children come Great facilities, lots of Ikea huts,

:36:57.:37:02.

which are great, but we need to have Some of them don't have heating

:37:03.:37:07.

in them, that is so important. Today is a lovely sunny day,

:37:08.:37:11.

but we had snow last week, so getting the right

:37:12.:37:14.

equipment and facilities Well, Heidi Allen met

:37:15.:37:16.

the Immigration Minister, James Brokenshire, before she left

:37:17.:37:19.

and will meet him again But he won't need to wait

:37:20.:37:21.

to hear her view, because she's written it up for The Sun,

:37:22.:37:25.

and is with me here. Goning to you. -- Good evening to

:37:26.:37:33.

you. You knew it would be bad before you went, did anything surprise you?

:37:34.:37:39.

The overall scale and the inability of the Greek authorities to deal

:37:40.:37:43.

with it. I didn't expect it to be a wonderful experience. I knew it

:37:44.:37:47.

would be very upsetting, but just the pressure, it seems to me, being

:37:48.:37:50.

placed on the Greek authorities to just deal with it. Every charity you

:37:51.:37:56.

can think of is there, everybody is trying so hard. From a coordination

:37:57.:38:00.

point of view it's overwhelmed. They can't deal with it. Who should take

:38:01.:38:06.

responsibility, particularly for the children, in a Greek island, kids

:38:07.:38:09.

who don't belong to any European family? I think it's, what's become

:38:10.:38:14.

very clear to me, is that this is more than just a local problem, more

:38:15.:38:19.

than a European problem. This is a global problem. Everybody that's had

:38:20.:38:23.

a role in trying to defeat Daesh, that's what's fuelling a lot of

:38:24.:38:27.

these migrants moving across, has to play their part. For me, it's

:38:28.:38:32.

operational. The issues to solve the problem in Syria etc are huge and

:38:33.:38:37.

more complex. Right here and now in the Italian islands, this is about

:38:38.:38:40.

administration, bodies on the ground. I feel that every European

:38:41.:38:44.

country, America, should come together, contribute and have some

:38:45.:38:47.

real organisation there. They could really transform the situation. Us

:38:48.:38:50.

as well? Absolutely, yes. We are doing that. That's something I'm

:38:51.:38:54.

very proud of. We're doing it, though, we're doing it to people out

:38:55.:38:59.

nearer Syria, aren't we? That's our policy. We don't want to pull people

:39:00.:39:03.

to Europe. Correct. We're not helping people in Europe. That is

:39:04.:39:06.

the British Government approach. Broadly speaking and overall I would

:39:07.:39:09.

agree with that. What I saw the levels of people coming through,

:39:10.:39:16.

some days 7,000 people per day arriving on these coasts, it's

:39:17.:39:18.

absolutely right that we try to keep people that are economic migrants, a

:39:19.:39:22.

lot of the time, staying in the countries they come from. Once they

:39:23.:39:26.

arrive, it becomes everybody's problem. So the Government has

:39:27.:39:32.

announced that they will invest money directly in the administration

:39:33.:39:36.

processes. We can't help all those children without bringing some of

:39:37.:39:39.

the children to the UK, presumably. They can't live on a Greek island

:39:40.:39:43.

forever, that's not going to happen. There will be some who can't be sent

:39:44.:39:46.

back as economic migrants. Some of them are children. What sort of

:39:47.:39:52.

number do you think we should take? Is it 25,000 unaccompanied kids

:39:53.:39:55.

arrived last year? That's the estimate. Even Save the Children

:39:56.:39:59.

would say it's difficult to get a feel. The real reason why it's hard

:40:00.:40:04.

to know how many there are is because of the administrational

:40:05.:40:08.

break down. A lot of these children will have estranged family members,

:40:09.:40:11.

distant cousins, already in Europe. We need to go through the process to

:40:12.:40:15.

identify who they are and then it's who's left behind. In Italy, we have

:40:16.:40:20.

a much clearer picture of that, because the processes there are more

:40:21.:40:24.

developed. You're painting this as just an admin problem. Do you think

:40:25.:40:27.

it's actually also about bringing youngsters... It is, yes. What

:40:28.:40:32.

scale, 5,000 for the UK? 3,000 is the figure people have said? I don't

:40:33.:40:37.

know if it's clear-cut as that. If it was me championing that meeting

:40:38.:40:40.

and bringing European leaders together, I would want a grown up

:40:41.:40:44.

conversation. Germany have opened their borders beyond all recognition

:40:45.:40:47.

and probably some would say too far, within the huge numbers that they

:40:48.:40:51.

have taken, by default there will be a lot of unaccompanied children that

:40:52.:40:54.

have come part of that. It's a sensible conversation of leaders

:40:55.:40:59.

talking about human beings saying, "What can you manage? Until we do

:41:00.:41:03.

the work to understand the number of children who are there

:41:04.:41:05.

unaccompanied, because nobody should try to find a home for a child in a

:41:06.:41:09.

foreign country if there is the opportunity to find their family

:41:10.:41:12.

that. Process has to be gone through first. Thanks very much.

:41:13.:41:17.

I'll be back tomorrow. We will know the results from Iowa. Until then,

:41:18.:41:24.

very good night.

:41:25.:41:27.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.

Newsnight is in Iowa for the first primary. Will it be Trump and Clinton? Also looks at Britain and the EU rulebook, more Kids Company details, and migrant children.


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