03/02/2016 Newsnight


03/02/2016

Where is Gadaffi's gold plated pistol? Newsnight searches for it in the new Libya. Plus the Europe campaign, Serbia and the EU and white lines (in the road).


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Transcript


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This was 2011, the gun had belonged to the deposed Colonel Gadaffi.

:00:00.:00:12.

So what's happened to that gun, this man and to Libya?

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? OK. We return to Libya, where Gabriel Gatehouse discovers a

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shattered country of warring tones. This is a crucial strategic point.

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That way leads south. Whoever controls this road controls a vast

:00:39.:00:42.

chunk of southern Libya. This wrote down here takes you to Sirte, just

:00:43.:00:47.

beyond this point here, Islamic State controlled territory.

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Also tonight, the Prime Minister has had his problems on Europe.

:00:51.:00:53.

We'll be talking to the MP who said this of the deal on offer.

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Will my right my honourable friend admits to the house that he has been

:00:58.:01:01.

reduced to polishing boots? So what does he have to say

:01:02.:01:04.

about his own campaign? Councils are talking about ditching

:01:05.:01:07.

the white lines. Wear white lines are removed,

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drivers have to pay more attention. They are much more cautious and

:01:19.:01:21.

aware of traffic coming towards them, and also pedestrians and

:01:22.:01:23.

cyclists. Not because it is not important,

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but because it is in such a mess, And a difficult place

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for journalists to safely report. But Libya's descent is a story that

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needs to be told - with the so-called Islamic State

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trying to fill the power Our reporter Gabriel Gatehouse

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was in the country when Gaddafi was captured four years ago,

:01:48.:01:54.

and he was intrigued by one Passed around the jubilant crowds,

:01:55.:01:57.

it was the deposed dictator's Now Gabriel has been back,

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with producer Warwick Harrington and cameraman Mark McCauley to find

:02:05.:02:10.

out what became of it, the people who had it

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and their country. The death of Gaddafi was the end and

:02:15.:02:30.

the beginning. This footage broadcast for the first time shows

:02:31.:02:32.

more clearly than ever the kernel's final moments. You can see him

:02:33.:02:45.

pleading for his life. Bloodstained fighters became instant heroes,

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brandishing the dictator's golden personal. -- pistol. I was there as

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they passed it among themselves. A symbol, not only of their victory,

:03:00.:03:01.

but of their dreams for a new Libya. The brutal nature of the kernel's

:03:02.:03:19.

killing perhaps foreshadowed what was to come. Rival governments

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backed by their own militias have left a vacuum in which Islamic State

:03:26.:03:34.

inspiration. The Golden gun was the ultimate war trophy, the symbol of

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the transfer of power in the new Libya. Today, we have a bunch of

:03:38.:03:42.

different groups vying for control here, so I want to know, where is

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the pistol now? Perhaps the fate of the Golden gun can tell us something

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about what has happened to Libya. This is Misrata, home to the

:03:56.:04:01.

fighters who caught Gaddafi. Today, it is an independent citystate and

:04:02.:04:05.

the main focus is the battle against Islamic State. They have taken

:04:06.:04:08.

control of the neighbouring city of Sirte. Once again, Misrata is on the

:04:09.:04:11.

front line. Are you seeing senior figures from

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Iraq and Syria now coming to Sirte? On his wall, the intelligence chief

:04:38.:05:09.

has pictures of Misrata's euros with the Gaddafi's the Golden gun. The

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pistol has retained mythical status and no one seems to know where it

:05:14.:05:17.

is. But I have three leads. These are the people I met in 2011. An

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appeal showed me the gun right after the capture of Gaddafi. Mohammed, on

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the right, in the baseball cap, was hailed as a rule on the day. And

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Anwar Suwan, a local power broker who is the word the kernel's body in

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a meat locker. -- -- restored Colonel Gaddafi's body. Our search

:05:42.:05:46.

takes us to the outskirts of Misrata. Nabil is a car mechanic who

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has joined the militia fighting Islamic State. This is Nabil? We

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learned that he is in fact on his way back from the front line at this

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moment so we head off to meet him. This is as far as we can safely go

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without armed escort. Gabriel Gatehouse. That's you, and that is

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me. For Nabil and his comrade, the fighting did not end with the

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capture of Colonel Gaddafi. Islamic State is active in this area,

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carrying out attacks far beyond their base. The commander tells me,

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God willing, they will prevail. Where is the gun, do you now? It is

:06:33.:06:50.

in Misrata? Who has it? The gun is there, somewhere. But he does not

:06:51.:06:58.

know who has it. In Misrata, in a half finished building, people have

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gathered for a week. These men are from Sirte and they have managed to

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escape the harsh regime of Islamic State.

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This man's brother was arrested on suspicion of being a spy. He was

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executed in the most horrific manner.

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They show me a picture on a mobile phone. It is all over Facebook, they

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say. The man's name was Milad and he was recently married. He left behind

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an infant son. He was left like that for three days. His friends and

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relatives have similar stories. They cut my nephew's head off with a

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sword, says this man. Then they displayed his corpse in public for

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four days. Over the past year, foreign fighters have poured into

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Sirte, they say. It is so sad. These people had

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thrown off the shackles of 42 years of dictatorship and what they found

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is actually something worse than that, something equally brutal as

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Gaddafi's regime but much more unpredictable. When Gaddafi was

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killed, he was brought to Ms router. His body was put on public display

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by my old contact, Anwar Suwan. At the end of 2011, that was when I

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last saw you, and you had Colonel Gaddafi's body in a fridge. I am

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hoping that Anwar and his friends can help us in our search for the

:09:08.:09:12.

men who captured Gaddafi. Some appeared. One has lost his mind,

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they tell me, but he is in Misrata. That is Mohammed. He was carried

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aloft by the crowd, hailed as a hero. They promised to find his

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number. The last time I saw Anwar, he and his men were high on hope.

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Today, Libya is falling apart, fracturing a long deep fault lines.

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Islamist versus sectional arrest -- secularist, East versus West.

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Into this poisonous mix, Islamic State has injected itself. It has

:09:59.:10:04.

made its base in the neighbouring city of Sirte but its reach is

:10:05.:10:08.

expanding, carrying out attacks and suicide bombs across Libya. Because

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the international forces are fighting Daesh in Syria and Iraq,

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are you worried that they will come more strongly into Libya? Yes,

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because Daesh feel that they will be finished in Iraq and Syria, so the

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best place to come is here. Because there is not a strong governments to

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fight here. Closed to Ms router is the ancient Roman city of lettuce

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Magna. It is one of the best preserved archaeological sites in

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North Africa. Should Islamic State reach this far, it will surely

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suffer the same fate as the Syrian city of Palmeiro. The defence of the

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site is less the volunteers. UNESCO world Heritage daters will not

:11:03.:11:07.

protected. These men stand guard with nothing but a Kalashnikov.

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Ali is begging for help, any kind of help. More men, money to pay his

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men, even some radios. As it is, he is on his own. We left messages for

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Mohammed, our final lead. But meanwhile, the military has given us

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permission to visit their forward positions. We drive south into the

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desert towards Sirte. It is where Gaddafi was from, and where he was

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killed. Now it is the headquarters of Islamic State in North Africa.

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120 kilometres from Misrata, the last line of defence against Islamic

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State. This is a crucial strategic point. This fork in the road. That

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way Leeds South, so whoever controls this road controls a vast chunk of

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Southern Libya. This wrote down here takes you to Sirte and beyond this

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point here is Islamic state controlled territory. Islamic State

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in Libya has recruited loyalists of the deposed regime. Along with

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foreign fighters, they make for a formidable foe. The combined force

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against Islamic State your numbers about 1400 men, less than half the

:12:40.:12:41.

estimated numbers of state fighters. Small numbers of NATO special forces

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have, quietly, been sent him to explore potential local allies.

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Britain, America and others are continuing sending a bigger force,

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perhaps as many as 6000 troops in eight training capacity. But with no

:13:19.:13:24.

agreement between Libya's rival governments, their deployment has

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been held up. Sooner or later, this patch of desert will likely become

:13:29.:13:36.

the next IES battle ground. -- the next Islamic State battle ground.

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And then some news. Mohammed, it is Gabriel Gatehouse from the BBC. How

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are you? I don't know if you remember, but we met in Sirte when

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you captured Colonel Gaddafi. You remember me? How are you? Are you

:13:54.:14:04.

free that is Mohammed, the guy in the blue top and the baseball cap.

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He is here, and he speaks good English, and we are meeting in an

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hour. Mohammed hello, how are you. We take

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our shoes off? Is that your Playstation? You remember this? Yes.

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It was like you were the hero of the moment. Everyone was lifting you up.

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When they saw the guns of Gaddafi, they think I'm killing him and I

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catch him. The rebels saw the gun in Mohammed's hand and so they thought

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he was the one who killed Gaddafi. But he wasn't. Amid the confusion he

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had found the pistol on the ground. Mohammed became the accidental hero

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of the revolution. Do you know what happened to the gun, where is this

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gun, can you get it? Yes, I will call my dad. He is with him. It is

:15:01.:15:05.

with him? Yes. I think we may have found the gun! The family are wary

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of their trophy, there are still Gaddafi loyalists there. Mohammed

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ask us to tell the world it wasn't he who killed Gaddafi. His face will

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be associated with that golden gun. But his father wanted to remain off

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camera. You have the gun with you now? OK. Can I see it? Wow! There it

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is. You take... Yes it is empty. Wow! That is extraordinary. Heavy.

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It is heavy. It is a present from the son of Gaddafi. A present from

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his son? I think. It is a celebration of Colonel Gaddafi's

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rule. Extraordinary to see this thing again after four and a half

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years. I held this on the day that everyone thought the revolution was

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over and Libya was starting a bright new future and here we are nearly

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five years down the line and this country's still at war with ifts.

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When you found this gun, did you expect things to turn out this way?

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I'm really sad about that. Because when I say the Libyan killing, it is

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really so bad. The capture of the golden gun once symbolised the

:16:34.:16:40.

dawning of a new era. Gone is the wild optimism of those heady days.

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The gun today is a symbol of a revolution still unfinished, a rev

:16:47.:16:51.

fusion whose fate may yet prove decisive in the wider struggle

:16:52.:16:52.

against Islamic State. You gave us a close look at the

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mess. In broad terms what are western governments thinking about

:17:12.:17:14.

IS and the progress they have made there? They're worried in Iraq and

:17:15.:17:22.

Syria IS has been contained in Libya they're being allowed to

:17:23.:17:25.

proliferate. The Pentagon said they're looking at military options

:17:26.:17:30.

to contain Islamic State in Libya. The question is what are the

:17:31.:17:36.

options. I reported about the small number of Special Forces, looking

:17:37.:17:40.

for local allies on the ground. There is this mooted force in a

:17:41.:17:46.

training capacity. Training force that sounds intriguing. Possibly a

:17:47.:17:55.

sleight of hand. Possibly 6,000 troops, possibly Italian led with

:17:56.:18:01.

British involvement. Yesterday at the Foreign Secretary and his French

:18:02.:18:05.

counter part tried to pour cold water on the idea of boots on the

:18:06.:18:10.

ground. There is a sense in western capitals that they need to do

:18:11.:18:12.

something, but they don't know thousand do it. -- how to do it.

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Even if there were a unified government in Libya to give them the

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green light, there is no sense they will. There is a sense the Libyans

:18:23.:18:27.

are not focussed on Islamic State, its not their biggest problem. So if

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the Libyan authorities won't act, does the west act unilaterally with

:18:35.:18:37.

all the problems that implies. Thank you.

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Claudia Gazzini is a specialist in Libya at the NGO,

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Clearly, the ideal scenario would be for the disunited Libyan fighters to

:18:44.:18:58.

get together and unite and then we would know who we are dealing with.

:18:59.:19:02.

What is stopping that happening at the moment? Well the country has

:19:03.:19:07.

been you know divided politically and militarily for almost two years.

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You had political factions fighting each other and local allies also

:19:13.:19:21.

fighting each other. You have a very fragmented security scene. There was

:19:22.:19:26.

hope in 2015 that the UN-head peace process would lead to a Un if Ied --

:19:27.:19:33.

unified government to overcome the factors. But the peace process is

:19:34.:19:38.

stumbling, we don't have a government in place and the reason

:19:39.:19:42.

for this is really that there wasn't enough leg work in preparing the

:19:43.:19:48.

security dialogue, a security dialogue of the Libyan armed groups

:19:49.:19:53.

to back the political process. So we are left with a stumbling political

:19:54.:20:02.

process and no nationwide conversation between the groups that

:20:03.:20:06.

are in deep distrust to each other. This a chaps that IS would kind --

:20:07.:20:13.

chance that IS would focus minds and they would say we should sit down

:20:14.:20:18.

and sort this so we can take on IS? Well there are some groups in Libya

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that see this as a priority. But they're local rivals, that are

:20:26.:20:30.

working to establish their own local authority. They're the politicians

:20:31.:20:35.

that manoeuvre also these groups that are still engaged in a battle

:20:36.:20:42.

for control of the country. So at the moment, I think the UN and also

:20:43.:20:48.

international partners need to do more to help those Libyans, that

:20:49.:20:54.

tentativety would be willing to pick up the fight to talk with one voice

:20:55.:21:01.

and that is not happening yet. Are they good people there, are there

:21:02.:21:05.

people who the west or the UN could seriously work with? Do you know

:21:06.:21:09.

people there who you can pick the phone up to and have a conversation

:21:10.:21:13.

with on these kinds of matters? There are, these are people I do

:21:14.:21:21.

talk to as well. But to give you an example, Islamic State has its main

:21:22.:21:26.

stronghold in Sirte, but it is also seeking to expand eastwards towards

:21:27.:21:31.

Benghazi, where there is another presence of Islamic State. So the

:21:32.:21:37.

local commanders in Benghazi tell me they're ready to engage in military

:21:38.:21:40.

action against Islamic State to do so they think it is strategic to

:21:41.:21:48.

bring on board on their side those Islamist leaning groups that have an

:21:49.:21:53.

alliance with Islamic State, because they're being targeted as being an

:21:54.:21:58.

internal enemy by other army forces. So they're saying we want to tackle

:21:59.:22:04.

the Islamic State, we want to open up to these other Islamist leaning

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groups and bring them on our side, but we have army commanders on the

:22:10.:22:15.

ground that are refusing to do this. Their own commanders. We have talked

:22:16.:22:23.

about the ideal scenario, in the unideal scenario, in which Libya

:22:24.:22:28.

remain what is it is, can you see any useful intervention that the

:22:29.:22:35.

west brings to bear in there? Well certainly the west needs to remain

:22:36.:22:39.

engaged on Libya, on the security threat in Libya. Needs to increase

:22:40.:22:45.

its intelligence operations in the country. Help support local groups.

:22:46.:22:53.

But you know push, push and rethink maybe the political process. Bombing

:22:54.:22:57.

called for at this point? I know that is what we normally do. From

:22:58.:23:04.

what I hear there are already targeted strikes that do happen now

:23:05.:23:11.

and then by some anonymous source. This is a continuation of what has

:23:12.:23:16.

been, what is being... Happening in Libya. But rather than focussing on

:23:17.:23:22.

bombing, and just military action from the air, I think the

:23:23.:23:25.

international community, including the US and the UK, can do wonders if

:23:26.:23:34.

they do start engaging with military actors in the east, because your

:23:35.:23:38.

correspondent was in Misrata and that is the main focus of attention

:23:39.:23:42.

of international military, but there are other regions in Libya that

:23:43.:23:47.

needs to be engaged in order to have this war. Thank you very much.

:23:48.:23:52.

By the way, you can see more of Gabriel's report from Libya

:23:53.:23:55.

in Our World this weekend on the BBC News Channel -

:23:56.:23:57.

The Prime Minister has not had the warmest of receptions

:23:58.:24:03.

We showed you the negative newspaper front pages last night.

:24:04.:24:06.

Today, the reaction moved to the Commons.

:24:07.:24:08.

Our political editor David Grossman has been there.

:24:09.:24:24.

The institutions of Europe or the parliaments of

:24:25.:24:27.

For some MPs it is that question which encapsulates the debate

:24:28.:24:31.

Under the statue of Parliament's architect, Sir Charles Barry,

:24:32.:24:36.

one pro-EU Conservative MP told me that the Prime Minister had not come

:24:37.:24:39.

Naturally, I was someone who wanted to be convinced.

:24:40.:24:47.

The question I asked myself, if this is the very best that EU

:24:48.:24:52.

leaders can offer us, at a point when there is a very

:24:53.:24:56.

serious risk that Britain will exit, what does it mean if we tie

:24:57.:25:00.

ourselves in to the long-term future?

:25:01.:25:02.

Today was the first opportunity the Commons got to question

:25:03.:25:07.

the Prime Minister about the proposed deal and the issue

:25:08.:25:09.

of UK Parliamentary sovereignty was raised by Boris Johnson.

:25:10.:25:14.

He wants to know how the deal would change EU treaties.

:25:15.:25:24.

So as to assert the sovereignty of this House of Commons

:25:25.:25:27.

The Prime Minister's answer suggested that something along those

:25:28.:25:30.

I am keen to do even more to put beyond doubt that this House

:25:31.:25:35.

of Commons is sovereign and that is something we will look

:25:36.:25:38.

to do at the same time as concluding these negotiations.

:25:39.:25:40.

This afternoon David Cameron was asked about this

:25:41.:25:42.

If there is more we can do to secure Britain's sovereignty

:25:43.:25:53.

and to reform our situation in terms of the Human Rights Act,

:25:54.:25:56.

then I will be very keen to do that.

:25:57.:25:58.

Do you deny that ministers are working on such a proposal,

:25:59.:26:01.

that you expect to publish alongside the final deal?

:26:02.:26:03.

I have answered the question very clearly.

:26:04.:26:04.

Tomorrow, backbenchers have managed to get a Commons debate

:26:05.:26:09.

Many are particularly critical of the so-called red card proposal

:26:10.:26:13.

where if 15 parliaments across the EU bands together,

:26:14.:26:15.

they may be able to block the initiative.

:26:16.:26:18.

At the moment, there isn't enough on the table and most people

:26:19.:26:21.

The red card system, pulling together other parliaments

:26:22.:26:25.

to stop unwanted legislation in this country, is simply not

:26:26.:26:28.

I think the Prime Minister realises that, but perhaps has left himself

:26:29.:26:33.

open to a chink of light, so he can pull something out

:26:34.:26:36.

of the bag, depending on the strength of the opposition,

:26:37.:26:42.

to the proposals later in the debate.

:26:43.:26:44.

What would you like to get from them, given he has to pass 27

:26:45.:26:47.

Fundamental change, which is what he promised

:26:48.:26:50.

For many of us, that means the ability in this Parliament

:26:51.:26:55.

and other parliaments as well, in their own respect,

:26:56.:26:57.

to say no, to stop any unwonted EU directives.

:26:58.:27:03.

For Sarah Woolaston at least, a guarantee that the UK Parliament

:27:04.:27:06.

is sovereign over EU law would be very welcome.

:27:07.:27:11.

Because if at the moment, this emergency programme relies

:27:12.:27:17.

on 14 other members approximately agreeing to it, then realistically,

:27:18.:27:20.

But for Ken Clarke, it's impossible to have such a guarantee

:27:21.:27:26.

They're very keen on pressing things they know that are

:27:27.:27:33.

You could not belong to NATO if you said that the British

:27:34.:27:37.

parliament could unilaterally override our NATO obligations

:27:38.:27:39.

You could not join the United Nations if you said

:27:40.:27:45.

the British Parliament is sovereign and it must be free

:27:46.:27:47.

And reject the terms of the Charter.

:27:48.:27:50.

The World Trade Organisation, the IMF.

:27:51.:27:55.

The idea that you turn up and say, of course, the government has signed

:27:56.:27:59.

up to all this but back home, I have a parliament which can reject

:28:00.:28:02.

any treaty obligations that the government can object

:28:03.:28:11.

It is difficult to imagine what form of words would satisfy sceptical

:28:12.:28:15.

Conservative MPs and the EU leaders who think the answer to Europe's

:28:16.:28:18.

Now it is worth having a look at the newspapers, which are interesting

:28:19.:28:36.

headlines of the daily mail a big headline, who will speak for

:28:37.:28:42.

England? They explain by England, they mean the whole of the United

:28:43.:28:49.

Kingdom. They're quoting I think Arthur Greenwood in 1939. They liken

:28:50.:28:56.

the decisions we are making at this point to ones taken in 1939 when we

:28:57.:29:03.

went to war. The Times leads on cancer, but there is a piece about

:29:04.:29:11.

Michael Gove torn between Cameron and excite -- exit and the Guardian,

:29:12.:29:18.

Prime Minister's hard line woos Johnson.

:29:19.:29:25.

Let's focus on the Leave campaign now.

:29:26.:29:27.

There have been mumblings about why there are two Leave campaigns,

:29:28.:29:30.

And there's been dissent within one of the two,

:29:31.:29:33.

Tonight, Lord Lawson has been parachuted in as a new chairman.

:29:34.:29:39.

Some have called it disarray, others say it has now

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Steve Baker is a Conservative MP and member of Vote Leave -

:29:43.:29:51.

he is also chair of the Westminster group Conservatives for Britain.

:29:52.:29:56.

In. Let's start with the question of sovereignty. As a sceptic, do you

:29:57.:30:05.

see a way that the minister can assert the sovereignty of the

:30:06.:30:08.

British Parliament above the treaties of the EU without us

:30:09.:30:14.

leaving? No, it is very simple. You repeal the European communities act.

:30:15.:30:20.

There are two ideas around. One is a constitutional court, which is

:30:21.:30:22.

dangerous without a codified constitution. The other is

:30:23.:30:27.

positively dangerous. The idea of passing an act of Parliament to say

:30:28.:30:31.

we are sovereign would bring the sovereignty of Parliament within the

:30:32.:30:34.

jurisdiction of the courts, creating at best a paradox and at worst

:30:35.:30:37.

something dangerous. Did Phillips Hammond not say something about

:30:38.:30:42.

this? Yes, on the 7th of June last year, he appeared on the Andrew Marr

:30:43.:30:45.

Show and said positively that giving us a veto over EU law would be

:30:46.:30:50.

tantamount to an exit. Roger is the same as your view? You agree to the

:30:51.:30:59.

clerk? Yes. You cannot have it both ways. -- you agree with Ken Clarke.

:31:00.:31:07.

Boris Johnson, the headline in the Guardian, saying that he is tilting

:31:08.:31:11.

towards the end campaign. Is that a blow for you? At this stage, I have

:31:12.:31:16.

said I'm happy to go into the campaign, proud of that we have.

:31:17.:31:20.

With fewer men, a greater share of honour. But the reality is,

:31:21.:31:24.

conservatives cannot believe everything they read in the

:31:25.:31:28.

Guardian. You are hopeful that maybe he will come your way? I am grateful

:31:29.:31:35.

for every Conservative MP, every parliamentarian and voter, of

:31:36.:31:37.

whatever political party, who joins the campaign to leave. Of course I

:31:38.:31:44.

would like more, we would like all of the members of the Cabinet. Is

:31:45.:31:48.

Lord Lawson going to be the leader of the campaign? He was big in the

:31:49.:31:53.

80s. Like Ross. I would like the Prime Minister to lead us out of the

:31:54.:32:03.

EU. -- like Bros. Lord Lawson's role is to be the political colossus that

:32:04.:32:08.

he is. He lives in France! That is a good thing for Eurosceptic. But he

:32:09.:32:13.

is not working there, in France, although is he getting benefits?

:32:14.:32:17.

Under the Vienna writes, he would be entitled to live there under the

:32:18.:32:21.

rights he has acquired. The point is that he is a political colossus and

:32:22.:32:26.

it is evident to anyone that we have work to do to reach out to the other

:32:27.:32:30.

campaigns who wish to leave the European Union in order to

:32:31.:32:33.

collaborate and make sure that parliamentarians feel much more

:32:34.:32:36.

closely engaged with whatever political party is in the campaign.

:32:37.:32:39.

And that is what Lord Lawson's jobbies. You said the vote to leave

:32:40.:32:45.

campaign needed material changes. You were one of those who

:32:46.:32:50.

complained. I think I have been wearing a blue helmet for the UN.

:32:51.:32:56.

There have been changes tonight, with Dominic Cummings stepping down

:32:57.:32:59.

from the board. That was always planned. Was it? So why would you

:33:00.:33:07.

complaining? I was not complaining. I think the issue of why is one for

:33:08.:33:12.

people's memoirs. It is an issue for the board and the individuals

:33:13.:33:16.

involved. I'm sure it will be remembered differently in different

:33:17.:33:21.

people's memoirs. Dominic and I have not always agreed but I have learned

:33:22.:33:24.

to love him. He is a brilliant man and he will win this campaign. So it

:33:25.:33:29.

is all sorted? There is no material change? He is still running the

:33:30.:33:33.

campaign but not on the board? The material changes that Lord Lawson

:33:34.:33:37.

and Lord Forsyth are joining us to bring additional political capital

:33:38.:33:40.

which will be used. It is up to Lord Lawson on the board to decide how to

:33:41.:33:45.

do it, and it will be used to improve our relations with the other

:33:46.:33:49.

campaigns. You are going to merge with the other campaign, Orange you?

:33:50.:33:55.

They are saying they wanted to join and they are going to join. As

:33:56.:34:01.

politicians often say, there are no plans for a merger. We need to get

:34:02.:34:05.

to the point where there is a single designated campaign. Vote Leave will

:34:06.:34:10.

apply for designation and I am supporting Vote Leave. I believe

:34:11.:34:12.

Vote Leave will win the referendum. What we need to do is make sure that

:34:13.:34:17.

every single person of decency and goodwill who wishes to participate

:34:18.:34:20.

in the referendum has their place. And that is the negotiation which

:34:21.:34:26.

must take place. That is the accommodation which must be reached.

:34:27.:34:30.

In a word, would you like to be a merger? I don't think it is

:34:31.:34:35.

possible. The reason is there are genuine disagreements about strategy

:34:36.:34:38.

and tactics. A pity we do not have time to go into those. Thank you

:34:39.:34:40.

very much. While we might be thinking

:34:41.:34:46.

of getting out of the EU, one country trying

:34:47.:34:49.

to get in is Serbia. It's remarkable to think

:34:50.:34:51.

that just 16 years ago, our relationship

:34:52.:34:53.

was defined by this. These days, Serbia is trying to be

:34:54.:34:54.

a model European state, and in fact it's been

:34:55.:34:59.

commended for its approach If you look at the map,

:35:00.:35:01.

it sits on the refugee route Thousands travel

:35:02.:35:05.

through it on their way. They can't get through Hungary any

:35:06.:35:08.

more, so the ones who are allowed, What do the Serbs make

:35:09.:35:11.

of the EU's current state? The Prime Minister is in London

:35:12.:35:16.

today and I sat down with him. I ask them how many migrants and

:35:17.:35:24.

refugees were currently making their way through his country. -- I asked

:35:25.:35:30.

him. In 2016, originally 1820 people a day. And it is much less than it

:35:31.:35:39.

was before. I think that so far we have had 750,000, more than that

:35:40.:35:45.

passing through. I can tell you I was in Brussels several times with

:35:46.:35:51.

the European leaders, regarding this issue. And what we were dissatisfied

:35:52.:35:58.

with was that Europe could not find a conference of solution on the

:35:59.:36:04.

migrant crisis. -- a comprehensive solution. We were saying, whatever

:36:05.:36:09.

you say to us, we will deliver. We were the only country that treated

:36:10.:36:12.

those people in a very human way, showing solidarity. You did not see

:36:13.:36:20.

tear gas or batons, or whatever I imagine in Serbia. And only in

:36:21.:36:24.

Serbia. We accepted those people because we had such a terrible

:36:25.:36:28.

experience 20 and 25 years ago, and we knew how those people might feel.

:36:29.:36:34.

But on the other hand, we were also ready to be part of the European

:36:35.:36:42.

solution, including having five or 10,000 people in our country, if

:36:43.:36:45.

they would like to stay in our country. 5000 or 10,000, is that the

:36:46.:36:53.

number? 15,000, it doesn't matter. We would agree. But we are a small

:36:54.:36:57.

Serbia. If we say that, it means that Holland should say, OK, 70

:36:58.:37:04.

80,000. There has been a harsh rhetoric, a more brutal tone coming

:37:05.:37:11.

from some of the Western and Eastern countries. I think it has been less

:37:12.:37:15.

cooperative. Some are saying, hang on, these guys, we let them into the

:37:16.:37:19.

EU and when we need them, they have not been there for us. I don't think

:37:20.:37:26.

it is all about the influx of those people. It is not about the

:37:27.:37:29.

migration crisis. It is also about the internal political issues.

:37:30.:37:36.

People use that. It was very easy to criticise the situation about the

:37:37.:37:40.

migrant crisis, to get political points internally. And that is what

:37:41.:37:46.

we do not do. I don't care about internal political points. We don't

:37:47.:37:49.

care about that. We reacted in a very European way. We will have

:37:50.:37:58.

elections in three months in Serbia, and I will not flatter anybody, by

:37:59.:38:04.

saying that our country has been jeopardised by those people but

:38:05.:38:09.

would like to settle down. No, come on. This is important because your

:38:10.:38:16.

country did have a populist demagogue, and some. We learn

:38:17.:38:19.

something from our own mistakes. It is the best way to learn it. From

:38:20.:38:25.

time to time, it is good to avoid it but we could not. There is talk of

:38:26.:38:29.

various ways that Europe could respond to this. If Germany said,

:38:30.:38:34.

OK, enough is enough and we shut our borders, then what happens? Because

:38:35.:38:38.

you get is backing up of refugees, passing through your country and

:38:39.:38:42.

other countries. We cooperate very closely. And we collaborate with

:38:43.:38:48.

Germany. Very closely. And with all the others. We will do whatever they

:38:49.:38:52.

say to us, whatever would be the European decision. And I say to

:38:53.:38:57.

them, if you would say one day, close the border, but I don't think

:38:58.:39:02.

that would be the best possible solution. I don't agree with it but

:39:03.:39:08.

I will do it if the Europeans would tell us too. You would close your

:39:09.:39:14.

border? If they say to us that would be a good common European solution,

:39:15.:39:19.

we would deliver on that, but we just need to hear what that

:39:20.:39:24.

comprehensive European solution is. Thank you very much.

:39:25.:39:26.

We've heard a lot about red lines in the last few weeks,

:39:27.:39:29.

I know what you're thinking - where's our coverage of white lines?

:39:30.:39:33.

They are, we are told, in danger, as councils

:39:34.:39:37.

White lines, they always seem to have been with us, like queueing and

:39:38.:40:08.

the EU referendum. If you like interesting facts about signage, the

:40:09.:40:11.

white line has been on British roads for about a century. But now more

:40:12.:40:15.

and more of them are disappearing. This was once a busy road near

:40:16.:40:34.

popular museums in London. Today, it is still quite a busy road, albeit

:40:35.:40:41.

with a nice, wide promenade of a pavement. The guidelines are gone.

:40:42.:40:45.

It is an incredible transition. Many viewers will remember years ago how

:40:46.:40:52.

much traffic was on this road and how dangerous it felt as a road. But

:40:53.:40:58.

now, we are standing here and traffic is moving fairly slowly. It

:40:59.:41:03.

has transformed the road. It is a space for everyone to enjoy,

:41:04.:41:05.

families, children, walkers, cyclists. The absence of white lines

:41:06.:41:13.

seems to wake up motorists to the idea that they are the ones

:41:14.:41:16.

responsible for the safety of their cars, all good? Maybe not. The

:41:17.:41:23.

problem is, to do it properly it is very expensive. The scheme cost

:41:24.:41:28.

something like ?40 million and most local highway authorities do not

:41:29.:41:32.

have that money. Just to peel off the white lines? It is more than

:41:33.:41:37.

that, broadening pavements, changing the signing so that there is less

:41:38.:41:42.

clutter, and the pavement texture is better. It costs a lot of money. And

:41:43.:41:47.

often there are few objections. Some of them with good reason. People

:41:48.:41:52.

like the RNIB, who look after blind and partially sighted people, they

:41:53.:41:56.

do not like pavements like this. There is not a curb, so if you are

:41:57.:42:01.

blind or partially sighted, it is easy to walk into the road. You and

:42:02.:42:06.

I are safe drivers but some of them, really... If only this fellow was

:42:07.:42:10.

driving on one of the roads in London on Norfolk where white lines

:42:11.:42:14.

have not been repainted since resurfacing. In East Anglia, they

:42:15.:42:19.

are predicting personal injury accidents could fall by a fifth.

:42:20.:42:26.

This comes after the Dutch pioneered shared space on roads, challenging

:42:27.:42:33.

the presumption of some drivers that they had priority. It works well in

:42:34.:42:39.

those small, medieval Dutch villages where you have more cyclists than

:42:40.:42:43.

cars so you can take away the lines on pavements and slows down. That is

:42:44.:42:51.

pretty different to the bullring in Birmingham or London or streets

:42:52.:42:56.

around Glasgow or Edinburgh, where there is more traffic, and the

:42:57.:43:00.

traffic goes faster. We are not really comparing like with like. It

:43:01.:43:05.

is not about abandoning rules, it is a different way of enforcing them.

:43:06.:43:13.

In an age of reduced funding for police and reduce police

:43:14.:43:18.

enforcement, we need more innovative measures that will make drivers

:43:19.:43:28.

drive slower. But are we nearly losing road markings or great

:43:29.:43:34.

signifiers of cultural importance? Perhaps they are really lines in the

:43:35.:43:35.

sand. We leave you with the latest piece

:43:36.:43:38.

to camera from Youtube travel

:43:39.:43:46.

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