10/02/2016 Newsnight

Policing cases of historic sexual abuse.

Even top cops recognise the system isn't working.

It looks like when the suspect was a member of the establishment, as it

would be termed, then clearly other members of the stabber Schmid will

come round to detect them. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner

has the job of seeking the right balance between the rights

of victims and suspects. Also tonight, the financial trading

floors are feeling spooked. Or maybe they just know something

the rest of us don't. We'll try to work out how worried

we should be. And will Europe's killer whales

and dolphins be wiped out You can see the skin and the blood

are here, the PCB is an invisible killer, really.

On one view, when it comes to the sexual abuse of young people,

Britain has gone from a country that was absurdly excusing

the guilty to one hysterically pursuing the innocent.

Certainly, people holding that view have dumped a lot of criticism

on the Met Police lately, for its recent behaviour towards,

So today, the Met turned itself in, establishing an inquiry

into its record at investigating historic cases.

And the Commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe suggests in a newspaper

article tomorrow that suspects should have

Our Investigations Editor Nick Hopkins is with me.

What's your reading of today's announcement?

As you say, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe is under enormous pressure. Today he

announced that a retired judge would be reviewing his handling of high

profile cases. I think this reflects two things. The first is that he

says he is reacting to public concern. I'm not sure that's true,

no one is protesting in the streets about all this. But there are

politicians past and present an certain newspapers that have been

calling for his head in recent weeks and I think they have slightly

forced his hand. Second, I suspect that Sir Bernard is frankly fed up

and he's taking a bit of a gamble. I think he's hoping that this review

will broadly support the way the Met has handled these cases but also

underline a conundrum that his and other forces face, that they feel

they are dammed if they look into these kind of allegations and they

feel they are accused of cover-ups if they don't. Here is what Sir

Bernard had to say earlier today about the review but also a reminder

of why all this has become so controversial.

Investigating historical child sex abuse is very difficult.

We've had quite a moral crisis over the last 18 months where initially

it was said that very senior members of Government had lost

dossiers, that they themselves were subject to allegations.

And now here we are, the very adverse of that criticism,

that in fact we weren't ignoring things, we've gone too far.

Surely it's right that someone should look at that and try

And perhaps gives some guidance about how police officers and others

approach these difficult historic allegations where the evidence

sometimes is lost, where people's memories have faded.

It's so easy to make allegations but then how do we prove them?

Surely I think we all need somebody to look at that seriously.

If Jimmy Savile could get away with his abuse, well,

Claims of a Westminster paedophile ring have lingered for decades.

So when, in 2014, a man came forward claiming to be one of its victims,

They launched Operation Midland and famously they said this.

I believe what Nick is saying to be credible and to be true.

Then came the house searches, including a war hero, Lord Bramall.

Not so the former Tory MP Harvey Proctor.

Last August he called an extraordinary press conference

in which he detailed and then denounced the claims against him.

Anyone of a delicate or nervous disposition should leave

Six weeks later, a BBC Panorama programme questioned whether the VIP

Scotland Yard insisted its inquiry was ongoing.

But they did admit that the former Home Secretary, Lord Brittan,

also allegedly involved in the VIP paedophile ring, had gone

to his death not knowing the force had already cleared him.

Last month, The Met told Lord Bramall he faces

Amid reports that the Westminster paedophile ring probe has gone

nowhere and will soon be wound up, the Yard stands accused

Things post-Savile have come full circle.

With all that in mind, earlier today I spoke to serve pizza Fahey, who

was until recently the Chief Constable of Manchester. -- Sir

Peter Fahey. Bernard Hogan-Howe

is under pressure. Because I think somebody

in his position, a Chief Constable, deals with hundreds

of incidents every single day. To personalise it in this way

I think is very wrong. I think we should be worried

about the fact that the two previous Is this what we really want in terms

of such a vital position? I think, you know, I need to declare

that clearly Bernard is someone I've But do I think any objective view

would say that he is When an officer used

the words credible and true, It did, but on the other hand,

I can understand the dilemma Detectives have to absolutely go out

of their way to really get it across to victims and potential

victims that when they come across, their account, will that first

account be believed or seen as true? Clearly it is the job

of the investigator to then challenge that victim's reality

in terms of looking for evidence which will either support that

all will undermine it. But you understand why any

detective would say that. Well, if there is clearly particular

issue about a delay in somebody being given information

then absolutely, I think you would apologise for that

because that is a clear mistake, it is an error, it is not how

the procedure should work. But I certainly think that no

Chief Constable would apologise for investigating anybody,

if there has been an allegation. How concerned are you by the level

of political interference We seem to be adopting

the American system. Because it is, it

becomes very personal. As Chief Constable I suffered

some of that myself, You didn't want to be a celebrity,

you didn't want to be a personality. The trouble with it is that that

then, we don't see that behind that, Bernard is a very, very

professional police officer. If he were to go, the people that

would do best out of this would be So I think, you know,

this whole notion of becoming more personalised, particularly the way

the position of the Commissioner of London, over the past three

commissioners has become very personalised and very targeted,

I think that is an aspect of the American system

which we should not be adopting. It's a case of the

establishment biting back? Well, it is, and of course

that is part of the danger But of course what has happened now

is absolutely it looks like when the suspect was a member

of the establishment, as it would be termed,

then clearly other members of the establishment come

round to protect them. Now I think Lord Bramall is a very

distinguished soldier and a great

leader, but the trouble is in terms of this difficult issue of trying

to get this matter cleared up and particularly to encourage more

victims to come forward, clearly it is really,

really important that If they see that in a case like this

it appears that establishment figures have come behind that,

it's going to discourage more people Do you think in cases of historic

child abuse there should be a third We certainly need a third way,

when such a tiny proportion of victims get justice

through the system and yet on the other hand feel

hugely wronged and have I think there does need to be some

careful consideration of whether there could be another

system, possibly closer It would need to be very creative

and imaginatively different, but I think that is

the problem at the moment. We're trying to force these

cases into a court system which was designed in a very

different time for different types of cases and it is

clearly not working. Nick, there, talking to Sir Peter

Fahy. I'm joined now by Gabrielle Shaw,

CEO of the National Association for People Abused in Childhood,

and Conservative peer and Times A starting point on which I think

you will both agree. Do you both agree that a review of police

handling of these cases is a good idea? Yes, for reasons of

transparency. Abuse happens in secret, cover-ups and accusations

happen in secret. For the Met police to say let's have a look at it, it's

a good thing. Danny, you wrote a rather excoriating article, you

agree a review is due? Yes and I am particularly pleased there will be a

review of the processes, not whether or not police followed the processes

but whether the processes were correct. I think that's a very

important aspect. I'm sure you would say this but I'm sure you would

agree that the police would investigate if someone comes in and

says there was this abuse and I was a victim of it, in fact they have an

obligation to do that. Completely and I would go further. I think

there has been a national scandal of under investigating historic child

sexual abuse and I think we've realised that. Did the pendulum

swing too far the other way? And it became about investigating anybody?

Let's look at where the pendulum has come from. We come from a history of

massive underreporting and victim survivors hearing failed firstly by

being abused and then by their reports are not being believed by

the police and the judiciary. As the pendulum swung too far? I think

we're still living through it. Many survivors and victims, particularly

ones who call the helpline, we hear this all the time, "I still have

that fear, I still have that doubt that I'm going to be believed". As

long as that is happening at people do not want to come forward, there

is work to do. No, I don't think the pendulum has swung too far. I think

we're right to be investigating these things. What I'm concerned

about is, why did it take ten months for example to ask Lord Bramall's

crucial witnesses after it was revealed that he was being

investigated? Why did we know that he was being investigated? How did

that happen? Not just in his case but Jim Davidson's case and other

cases outside that, the question here is not our wee investigating

think we should not be investigating, but how are we

investigating them and is the right process being used to do that? Do

you accept there is an issue there? Around processes? Around the time it

takes. Somebody like Lord Bramall is being investigated and nothing seems

to happen for month after month. Absolutely, I think it raises really

serious questions. Going back to Bernard Hogan-Howe referring it to

review, I think that's a very good thing. But it's not helping the

victims if there is a long and undue delay. Absolutely. Was common sense

being applied? That is the thing we have had to learn about Operation

Midland. It fails victims if you spend ?27 million a year, 27

officers, ?2 million a year spent on something that ends up showing

nothing. We have to ask where the police come whether they became

carried away with the idea that the investigation must be correct

because they were conducting it and then went on conducting it and said

things were true that now looks very questionable. Obviously we don't

know what happened but it really does look very questionable. We have

to see whether common was applied. Is that an issue? I think Danny has

hit the nail on the head, absolutely right. One wider point around this,

I think the media firestorm it's fair to say around this has a

dangerous side-effect. It tends to narrow the debate down to, it's just

a VIP thing, it's just a celebrity thing. The more general point is

that most of the abuse of children happens within a family environment,

or a wider community environment. That is the failure to recognise

that. That is another point of agreement because your piece today,

your broader concern that the police are too conscious of public and

press opinion when they come to choose what they are doing? I think

that's true. I think in normal circumstances, had they had this

particular case brought to them, they would not have regarded it as

being true and credible. They were carried away, I think we will

discover, by the fact that there had been a public furore, and something

that to me looks like it did make terribly much sense... That Timmy

fails the victims. -- that to me fails the victims. It's not a

question of choosing between this investigation and not doing anything

about child abuse. It's quite the opposite. We need to leave it there.

Thank you very much indeed both. The old saying goes financial

markets have predicted nine Well, with everything going on now,

should we make that ten? The markets have been

gyrating, and gyrating The FTSE is down 9% this year,

and we haven't even reached But before you ready yourself

for a massacre, and go out and stock up on bottled water or canned goods,

you should ask whether the economic So let's have a go at making

sense of what's going on. Start big and then

we will zoom down. China isn't performing as it was,

and that's causing problems Western countries were hoping

to sell their wares there, In fact, just this morning

manufacturing figures came out for Britain, and they

were pretty poor. Output of factories

shrinking not growing. Over in the US, the chair

of the Federal Reserve admitted today it's all enough

to make us wary. As is always the case, the economic

outlook is uncertain. Foreign economic

developments in particular Now the next thing to worry about,

there isn't much ammo in the central That's worrying enough,

but then some central banks have resorted to a weird new weapon,

negative interest rates. Yup, the central bank

says to ordinary banks if you want to keep your

cash with us, you pay, I do not think anybody thought

genuinely that one of the world's biggest central banks,

let alone two, would go This is supposed to be

unprecedented, and remember It's become all the fashion as a way

of persuading banks not to sit The ECB, Japan and Sweden,

among others, are trying it. Which allows us to zoom

in to the next level You see, when interest rates

are negative, banks That's one reason why their shares

are being pummelled right now. The era of banks not meant to be

sitting on their money is one Then we can zoom a little

further into market fears. Not just banks, one bank

in particular, Deutsche Bank. It's not a pipsqueak,

and there are concerns it may need to buttress its finances,

raise more capital. Its share price is down

even more than the rest. Deutsche Bank were already

struggling in the good times. They had a high cost

base and were really Then you get a downturn,

their share price falls and on top It is a toxic mix

for a company that was The bank says it's fine,

and its share price jumped today, but nobody wants to think of big

banks even having to answer With me now are Pippa Malmgren,

who was an economic advisor to President George W Bush,

and John Bilton, who is Head of Global Multi-Asset Strategy at JP

Morgan Asset Management. How worried are you? How worried

should you really be as opposed to market worries? Markets are very

worried, but it is not only about the issue you have talked about.

There are many issues. The Chinese reserves have suddenly collapsed and

the IMF says they have fallen to below the level of the safe zone.

The country everybody thought was so rich. Saudi Arabia have announced

their Macs have to do a dead issue because the oil prices are low and

they are saying they may have to sell their crown jewels. Economies

are in trouble. This is problematic. The US started raising interest

rates and are not going to reverse, which is a positive sign, not

negative, but people are nervous about the higher interest rate

environment from the US. The markets are famously fragile and will jump

at the first thing. How worried should they be? When I calibrate

markets I think about the level of growth, whether there is liquidity,

and deal risks. One of the things we have at the moment is that most of

the major economies are growing but not very much, a couple of percent

in the UK and the US and perhaps under that in the eurozone. When we

see liquidity being withdrawn, by the central bank or because reserve

managers are no longer buying assets and tail risks are picked up... You

mean these small things... Exactly, politics, issues in markets like

China. Financial markets have to be calibrate and if growth is not

strong enough to offset these then markets have to repriced. This is an

mike interesting idea. What is going on is there has been a shift. The

markets know the prices they had our roll but it is a messy business to

get the new prices. China has slowed down. A famous investor back in the

day used to say the markets were e-voting machine in the short term

and a weighing machine in the long-term. Voting processes are

messy. As we begin to weigh the level of growth than the true level

of risk and liquidity, and we get support from central banks, who do

not want to see that financial system fail, we will see, times

ahead but the idea we get some sort of sharp rebound once the market

finds its feet is also wide of the mark. This is probably going to be

year of some concern but positive growth. Central banks doing stuff,

everybody thinks about the fact that the central banks do not really have

anything left. No. The central banks have no alternative plan. Someone

asked if I thought they had the plan in the first place. This negative

interest rate idea which people have a hard time getting their head

around. Central banks have no experience of doing it. If I want to

give my money to the British government I have to pay the British

government. You play borrow money -- pay to borrow money, we did not know

you had to pay to save money. Compelled to put your money to work

on something like property or the stock market. It is a mechanism for

forcing you to take risk you might not otherwise take. But just banks.

The onus will be passed on. When I put my money in the bank they charge

me. They are going to charge you more. Without a doubt. They have to

make the money up somewhere. It has to be already streakers, including

the public. How worried should we be? -- all risk takers. If the banks

are operating in a low interest environment it is hard for them to

make money. Concern over earnings is not surprising. What has come back

some of the non-performing loan concerns and places like Italy have

been back on table again. The banks are way better capitalised. Are

they? I remember people saying that in 2005. Yes, but we were down to 3%

and it is into double figures. They are. They conducted a series of

stress tests which demonstrated how the banks could and would behave in

this kind of environment. The capital structures are safe. Is

there anything more to fear than fear itself? That is the problem.

Markets are over estimating fear. With the oil price this law people

are thinking maybe the value of the investment banks have to be written

down and it is the losses that they have not fully considered, to China,

to oil, to the tech sector. Things to be gloomy about, but let us not

overdo it until we have more information.

You may remember the name from the 1980s - a chemical compound

that was recognised as dangerous decades ago.

In fact the use of PCBs in this country was outlawed in 1981,

but it still persists in the environment.

Scientists are now warning that they could wipe out Europe's

Researchers have held a crisis meeting this week to discuss

Our reporter has more, and we should warn those

with delicate sensibilities there are some quite graphic

Intelligent, formidable hunters, graceful swimmers.

Killer whales and dolphins are everyone's favourite

marine mammals but in Europe's oceans their numbers have been

This is the Zoological Society of London, where scientists have

been trying to figure out what has been

Whenever you hear up of a cetacean being

stranded on the UK coastline the team here become involved.

When a marine mammal is found dead a marine

investigation gets under way as quickly as possible.

Today it is this harbour porpoise that was found washed up

on the beach in Devon that is about to undergo its postmortem.

Scientists are finding in case after case these animals'

bodies are loaded with a toxic chemical that many of us thought

PCBs, or polychlorinated biphenyls, were

Heralded for their stability, they were used

in everything from plastics to paints, lubricants and cement.

It was later realised PCBs are toxic,

hence a sequence of bans across the world through much

Despite this, PCBs have stuck around.

Many landfill sites contain the materials that use them

and they are leaching into the waterways,

working their way into the marine food chain.

This is the blubber sample we take which is what

we would test for the chemical pollutants.

Around Europe, tests are being carried out on over 1000

Every single one was contaminated with PCBs.

You can see the skin and the blubber, the blubber layer,

the PCBs are invisible, the invisible killer,

This doctor is one of the researchers in this area.

The levels of the PCBs in some species in Europe are the highest

If we have very high concentrations then there is a range of toxic

effects and probably the one we are most worried

about is the suppression of reproduction, that

basically the dolphins stop reproducing normally,

and we think it is having a devastating effect

With samples of the blubber removed for testing they are able to open

What we have actually found is that the animal is pregnant

Also the cervix is dilated so I can get my

hand through so she has obviously recently aborted.

There is no foetus in here and it does look as if there

This infection proved to be the cause of death for both

The doctor believes marine mammals are more susceptible to such

infections when they have a high concentration

This line is the threshold for what is

considered to be tolerable level of PCBs in animals.

Harbour porpoises are doing badly enough but look at the levels found

It is estimated 1.1 million tonnes of PCB contaminated

The darkest areas of red show the parts of Europe with the most

PCB laden material yet to be disposed of.

We are dealing with a big legacy, but you need to make

sure that the marine mammal problem is kept in proportion.

We have had PCB problems in other marine

mammals in the past, for instance seals in the Baltic.

The seal population is now recovering.

The PCB problem has not completely gone

away but it has been largely dealt with.

It takes quite a lot of time to take these PCBs out of the system.

PCBs can be cleared to help future generations but it is not easy.

One way is incineration of the remaining

materials that contain them but to do the job temperatures must

If we could get the PCB concentration down now

significantly, and that is a big ask, but if we could do that I think

these populations would eventually recover, so there is a reason

for optimism but if we do not do anything we will slowly lose

the last few killer whales and it will

be a terrible tragedy, it really will.

But, away from the picket lines, negotiations seem to be coming

Today, you might have noticed junior doctors have been on strike.

But, away from the picket lines, negotiations seem to be coming

to an end without the doctors' union and the government having come

So ministers may be about to impose new terms and conditions

on junior doctors, whether they like it or not.

So, Chris, what has actually happened in terms of negotiations?

Normally at the end of a striking day or in the middle of one as we

are now, you talk about turnout, how has the strike gone? The big thing

that has happened today has been an exchange of letters between someone

called Sir David Dalton, who is negotiating for the Government, and

the leader of the doctors union. The letter makes a number of points that

they would like the BMA to accent, tweaks to the contract. The say this

is their final offer, if the BMA don't accept it, negotiations are

over and the BMA will -- the government will impose a contract on

junior doctors. We could get an imposition of a new contract within

the next week. Right. So what actually happens then? Do the

doctors say OK, we've lost, and go back to work? This is a political

game. It is fundamentally a question of whether the BMA thinks that if

they continue to strike and fight, and they would have legal right to

continue striking over this, they would retain public sympathy and

they would be able to cause enough political discomfort for Jeremy Hunt

and David Cameron that they will eventually backed down and they will

be able to win new concessions. It's quite happy that the Government is

happy to let things like this come out and they will put the squeeze

on. We may find that tomorrow morning the BMA comes and say three

out of four of those points we are quite happy with, is that enough? It

certainly looks like it's coming to quite a confrontational head at the

moment. "All my life, I had been a liar,

a thief and a cheat". The opening words of a new memoir

from a man who calls himself Locked up for 20 years for his part

in two brutal murders, the book is about childhood,

prison and redemption. We'll talk to Mr James in a moment,

but first our reporter looks back Erwin James' prison sentence aged 28

would perhaps have come as no After his mother died when he was

seven and with an absentee, alcoholic and violent father,

Erwin had lived a life of crime. In 1982, during a series

of robberies and muggings, He fled to Lille and joined

the French Foreign Legion. A judge described him as brutal,

vicious and callous, and sentenced him to 14 years behind

bars, a prison term Erwin was in grim company,

as he describes in his book. But two discoveries whilst in prison

changed Erwin's life. The first was meeting Joan,

a prison psychologist who made him The second discovery

was his ability to write, well. And he was commissioned to pen

a column on prison life under a pseudonym for the Guardian

newspaper, with all In this new book, for which Erwin,

controversially for some, will keep the proceeds,

he goes further than ever Is this just the latest act of self

justification by Or is his frankness to tell

all a sign of how rehabilitated An all too rare example

of what David Cameron was calling for earlier this week

when he visited this Today Erwin takes another step

in his public rehabilitation. Good evening, thanks for coming in.

20 years for those two murders. Did you think that punishment fit the

crime? I mean, that's a question I can't really answer. I took what was

coming to me. The judge sentenced me to the mandatory life term, two life

terms. Was the punishment enough? A lot of people would say not long

enough. A lot of people would say I should have been executed. We are

not very forgiving or tolerant. But you're not a bitter? You don't feel

you were mistreated? You accept you had done wrong? I knew I deserved to

be there. Most people know that. It's what happens when you're in

there that is of interest to me. You go into a lot of detail. It's

conspicuous that you don't detail the actual crimes. I wonder why you

felt you didn't want to put the murders in the book. You don't hide

them, obviously the newspaper accounts are there, but it's not

something you... I think I've caused enough pain already for people. I

think starting to be overly expressionistic about those terrible

events would just be too appalling. It's bad enough for some people,

it's distressing that I'm actually here talking to you and I've written

a book and become a writer. This was never in my plan. When I went to

jail, I never had a plan. There was no sense I was going to live again.

I'm not going to ask you to detail them but do you remember the murders

vividly? Absolutely. Do you feel like you are the same human new word

then? You've obviously had an enormous journey since then. I'm the

same man but I went into prison without any real character, without

any real sense of morality or honesty or integrity, any of that

sort of stuff. And I just, it was a journey in their, I mean, it was

about survival but it was also a learning experience for me. Prison

is a place where, it's a robust place, a precarious place. What

there's an army of people working in those prisons trying to help people

like I was trying to become better people. It's not about just giving

me a better lifestyle but so that we come out and not harmed more people.

Redemption is a really interesting topic. As you say, there are a lot

of people who would like to see the murderers hanged. I wonder whether

you think we just underestimate the capacity for redemption. Did you see

people in prison who were unredeemable and some who were

redeemable? I was in prison with every type of offender you could

imagine. I was among the worst of the worst. For 20 years I lived with

every type of offender you can imagine. I'm not a spokesperson or

an apologist for prisoners, I'm not a flag waver for prisoners's writes,

but the vast majority of people I met in jail had the desire not to be

criminals. But the prison experience makes it almost, not impossible but

makes it very difficult for people like I was to overcome those

obstacles and become more than we were when we went to prison. Do you

feel you are accented back? Example, do you tell your neighbours and

friends about your background and history? I mean, now you are

publishing a book. But I just wonder whether it's something... I don't

like to broadcast the worst about myself, Evan. I'm not saying I'm

redeemed. I might hope I'm ready double, but I don't say I'm

redeemed. -- I might hope I'm redeemable. I live a reasonably

law-abiding life, I do the best I can. I'm grateful I live in a

society that gives people like me a second chance. I know that often

it's begrudging, that second chance. We have a society that gives people

a second chance. Your book is under the name Erwin James. Your real name

is James Monaghan. My real name is Erwin James Monaghan. Are you living

as Erwin James? Do you think of yourself as to people, almost? Not

really. I mean, my family, when they hear me called James, they laugh.

I've got an uncle Jim and a cousin James. I have always been Erwin, but

in prison Erwin was an unusual name, so I became James, I became big Jim

in prison, which is quite a nice thing because big Jim was quite a

helpful, dependable person. I quite liked that person. Let's talk about

prison a bit. You would come out and think of yourself now not as a

spokesman for prisoners but as dumping of a prison reformer. You

think it can be better come right? I certainly believe that. I try and

support charities like the reader Organisation, the writers in prison

network. I tried as a board people who try to use prison effectively

and creatively and intelligently. -- try to support people. Do people get

annoyed that you, who committed a crime, as someone trying to reform

prison? Maybe you have to set it up as a way of reducing crime rather

than making prisoners's lights better? I'm not a campaign or a

reformer, Evan. I'm just a writer. I was born a writer -- I became a

writer on prison landing. I support prison reform not to make

prisoners's lives better so that they can have a better time. My

first ten years I just had a bucket a toilet, a bed. Politicians outside

were telling people that I was living in a holiday camp and it

would stop. If we want to think about prisons, we have to know about

prisoners and the truth about prisoners, so that... Nobody likes a

and all but surely we want criminals to come out of prison less harmful

and less likely to cause crime. If we don't use our prisons effectively

we are letting down future victims of prison levers. That's all we have

time for, I'm afraid. Emily will be here tomorrow. Until then, good

night.