10/02/2016 Newsnight


10/02/2016

With Evan Davis. Are the Met to blame over child abuse investigations? Is the big crash back on? Plus unmaking a murderer - we meet Erwin James.


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Policing cases of historic sexual abuse.

:00:07.:00:08.

Even top cops recognise the system isn't working.

:00:09.:00:15.

It looks like when the suspect was a member of the establishment, as it

:00:16.:00:24.

would be termed, then clearly other members of the stabber Schmid will

:00:25.:00:25.

come round to detect them. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner

:00:26.:00:28.

has the job of seeking the right balance between the rights

:00:29.:00:30.

of victims and suspects. Also tonight, the financial trading

:00:31.:00:32.

floors are feeling spooked. Or maybe they just know something

:00:33.:00:37.

the rest of us don't. We'll try to work out how worried

:00:38.:00:40.

we should be. And will Europe's killer whales

:00:41.:00:43.

and dolphins be wiped out You can see the skin and the blood

:00:44.:01:03.

are here, the PCB is an invisible killer, really.

:01:04.:01:07.

On one view, when it comes to the sexual abuse of young people,

:01:08.:01:12.

Britain has gone from a country that was absurdly excusing

:01:13.:01:19.

the guilty to one hysterically pursuing the innocent.

:01:20.:01:22.

Certainly, people holding that view have dumped a lot of criticism

:01:23.:01:25.

on the Met Police lately, for its recent behaviour towards,

:01:26.:01:27.

So today, the Met turned itself in, establishing an inquiry

:01:28.:01:34.

into its record at investigating historic cases.

:01:35.:01:39.

And the Commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe suggests in a newspaper

:01:40.:01:43.

article tomorrow that suspects should have

:01:44.:01:44.

Our Investigations Editor Nick Hopkins is with me.

:01:45.:01:48.

What's your reading of today's announcement?

:01:49.:01:51.

As you say, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe is under enormous pressure. Today he

:01:52.:01:58.

announced that a retired judge would be reviewing his handling of high

:01:59.:02:02.

profile cases. I think this reflects two things. The first is that he

:02:03.:02:06.

says he is reacting to public concern. I'm not sure that's true,

:02:07.:02:11.

no one is protesting in the streets about all this. But there are

:02:12.:02:14.

politicians past and present an certain newspapers that have been

:02:15.:02:18.

calling for his head in recent weeks and I think they have slightly

:02:19.:02:23.

forced his hand. Second, I suspect that Sir Bernard is frankly fed up

:02:24.:02:26.

and he's taking a bit of a gamble. I think he's hoping that this review

:02:27.:02:31.

will broadly support the way the Met has handled these cases but also

:02:32.:02:36.

underline a conundrum that his and other forces face, that they feel

:02:37.:02:39.

they are dammed if they look into these kind of allegations and they

:02:40.:02:43.

feel they are accused of cover-ups if they don't. Here is what Sir

:02:44.:02:47.

Bernard had to say earlier today about the review but also a reminder

:02:48.:02:51.

of why all this has become so controversial.

:02:52.:02:54.

Investigating historical child sex abuse is very difficult.

:02:55.:02:57.

We've had quite a moral crisis over the last 18 months where initially

:02:58.:03:02.

it was said that very senior members of Government had lost

:03:03.:03:05.

dossiers, that they themselves were subject to allegations.

:03:06.:03:08.

And now here we are, the very adverse of that criticism,

:03:09.:03:11.

that in fact we weren't ignoring things, we've gone too far.

:03:12.:03:13.

Surely it's right that someone should look at that and try

:03:14.:03:16.

And perhaps gives some guidance about how police officers and others

:03:17.:03:24.

approach these difficult historic allegations where the evidence

:03:25.:03:26.

sometimes is lost, where people's memories have faded.

:03:27.:03:28.

It's so easy to make allegations but then how do we prove them?

:03:29.:03:32.

Surely I think we all need somebody to look at that seriously.

:03:33.:03:35.

If Jimmy Savile could get away with his abuse, well,

:03:36.:03:43.

Claims of a Westminster paedophile ring have lingered for decades.

:03:44.:03:53.

So when, in 2014, a man came forward claiming to be one of its victims,

:03:54.:03:56.

They launched Operation Midland and famously they said this.

:03:57.:04:04.

I believe what Nick is saying to be credible and to be true.

:04:05.:04:08.

Then came the house searches, including a war hero, Lord Bramall.

:04:09.:04:12.

Not so the former Tory MP Harvey Proctor.

:04:13.:04:20.

Last August he called an extraordinary press conference

:04:21.:04:24.

in which he detailed and then denounced the claims against him.

:04:25.:04:28.

Anyone of a delicate or nervous disposition should leave

:04:29.:04:31.

Six weeks later, a BBC Panorama programme questioned whether the VIP

:04:32.:04:39.

Scotland Yard insisted its inquiry was ongoing.

:04:40.:04:50.

But they did admit that the former Home Secretary, Lord Brittan,

:04:51.:04:54.

also allegedly involved in the VIP paedophile ring, had gone

:04:55.:04:57.

to his death not knowing the force had already cleared him.

:04:58.:04:59.

Last month, The Met told Lord Bramall he faces

:05:00.:05:06.

Amid reports that the Westminster paedophile ring probe has gone

:05:07.:05:18.

nowhere and will soon be wound up, the Yard stands accused

:05:19.:05:21.

Things post-Savile have come full circle.

:05:22.:05:30.

With all that in mind, earlier today I spoke to serve pizza Fahey, who

:05:31.:05:40.

was until recently the Chief Constable of Manchester. -- Sir

:05:41.:05:45.

Peter Fahey. Bernard Hogan-Howe

:05:46.:05:47.

is under pressure. Because I think somebody

:05:48.:05:48.

in his position, a Chief Constable, deals with hundreds

:05:49.:05:53.

of incidents every single day. To personalise it in this way

:05:54.:05:55.

I think is very wrong. I think we should be worried

:05:56.:05:57.

about the fact that the two previous Is this what we really want in terms

:05:58.:06:01.

of such a vital position? I think, you know, I need to declare

:06:02.:06:05.

that clearly Bernard is someone I've But do I think any objective view

:06:06.:06:08.

would say that he is When an officer used

:06:09.:06:13.

the words credible and true, It did, but on the other hand,

:06:14.:06:17.

I can understand the dilemma Detectives have to absolutely go out

:06:18.:06:25.

of their way to really get it across to victims and potential

:06:26.:06:32.

victims that when they come across, their account, will that first

:06:33.:06:38.

account be believed or seen as true? Clearly it is the job

:06:39.:06:41.

of the investigator to then challenge that victim's reality

:06:42.:06:46.

in terms of looking for evidence which will either support that

:06:47.:06:48.

all will undermine it. But you understand why any

:06:49.:06:51.

detective would say that. Well, if there is clearly particular

:06:52.:06:53.

issue about a delay in somebody being given information

:06:54.:07:04.

then absolutely, I think you would apologise for that

:07:05.:07:06.

because that is a clear mistake, it is an error, it is not how

:07:07.:07:09.

the procedure should work. But I certainly think that no

:07:10.:07:12.

Chief Constable would apologise for investigating anybody,

:07:13.:07:14.

if there has been an allegation. How concerned are you by the level

:07:15.:07:16.

of political interference We seem to be adopting

:07:17.:07:18.

the American system. Because it is, it

:07:19.:07:25.

becomes very personal. As Chief Constable I suffered

:07:26.:07:27.

some of that myself, You didn't want to be a celebrity,

:07:28.:07:30.

you didn't want to be a personality. The trouble with it is that that

:07:31.:07:38.

then, we don't see that behind that, Bernard is a very, very

:07:39.:07:41.

professional police officer. If he were to go, the people that

:07:42.:07:44.

would do best out of this would be So I think, you know,

:07:45.:07:47.

this whole notion of becoming more personalised, particularly the way

:07:48.:07:51.

the position of the Commissioner of London, over the past three

:07:52.:07:53.

commissioners has become very personalised and very targeted,

:07:54.:07:55.

I think that is an aspect of the American system

:07:56.:07:58.

which we should not be adopting. It's a case of the

:07:59.:08:05.

establishment biting back? Well, it is, and of course

:08:06.:08:07.

that is part of the danger But of course what has happened now

:08:08.:08:10.

is absolutely it looks like when the suspect was a member

:08:11.:08:13.

of the establishment, as it would be termed,

:08:14.:08:20.

then clearly other members of the establishment come

:08:21.:08:22.

round to protect them. Now I think Lord Bramall is a very

:08:23.:08:24.

distinguished soldier and a great

:08:25.:08:27.

leader, but the trouble is in terms of this difficult issue of trying

:08:28.:08:29.

to get this matter cleared up and particularly to encourage more

:08:30.:08:34.

victims to come forward, clearly it is really,

:08:35.:08:39.

really important that If they see that in a case like this

:08:40.:08:41.

it appears that establishment figures have come behind that,

:08:42.:08:45.

it's going to discourage more people Do you think in cases of historic

:08:46.:08:48.

child abuse there should be a third We certainly need a third way,

:08:49.:08:53.

when such a tiny proportion of victims get justice

:08:54.:08:56.

through the system and yet on the other hand feel

:08:57.:08:59.

hugely wronged and have I think there does need to be some

:09:00.:09:01.

careful consideration of whether there could be another

:09:02.:09:06.

system, possibly closer It would need to be very creative

:09:07.:09:08.

and imaginatively different, but I think that is

:09:09.:09:16.

the problem at the moment. We're trying to force these

:09:17.:09:18.

cases into a court system which was designed in a very

:09:19.:09:21.

different time for different types of cases and it is

:09:22.:09:23.

clearly not working. Nick, there, talking to Sir Peter

:09:24.:09:29.

Fahy. I'm joined now by Gabrielle Shaw,

:09:30.:09:34.

CEO of the National Association for People Abused in Childhood,

:09:35.:09:37.

and Conservative peer and Times A starting point on which I think

:09:38.:09:47.

you will both agree. Do you both agree that a review of police

:09:48.:09:52.

handling of these cases is a good idea? Yes, for reasons of

:09:53.:09:56.

transparency. Abuse happens in secret, cover-ups and accusations

:09:57.:10:02.

happen in secret. For the Met police to say let's have a look at it, it's

:10:03.:10:09.

a good thing. Danny, you wrote a rather excoriating article, you

:10:10.:10:14.

agree a review is due? Yes and I am particularly pleased there will be a

:10:15.:10:18.

review of the processes, not whether or not police followed the processes

:10:19.:10:21.

but whether the processes were correct. I think that's a very

:10:22.:10:25.

important aspect. I'm sure you would say this but I'm sure you would

:10:26.:10:28.

agree that the police would investigate if someone comes in and

:10:29.:10:32.

says there was this abuse and I was a victim of it, in fact they have an

:10:33.:10:37.

obligation to do that. Completely and I would go further. I think

:10:38.:10:42.

there has been a national scandal of under investigating historic child

:10:43.:10:48.

sexual abuse and I think we've realised that. Did the pendulum

:10:49.:10:53.

swing too far the other way? And it became about investigating anybody?

:10:54.:11:00.

Let's look at where the pendulum has come from. We come from a history of

:11:01.:11:04.

massive underreporting and victim survivors hearing failed firstly by

:11:05.:11:09.

being abused and then by their reports are not being believed by

:11:10.:11:13.

the police and the judiciary. As the pendulum swung too far? I think

:11:14.:11:17.

we're still living through it. Many survivors and victims, particularly

:11:18.:11:23.

ones who call the helpline, we hear this all the time, "I still have

:11:24.:11:26.

that fear, I still have that doubt that I'm going to be believed". As

:11:27.:11:30.

long as that is happening at people do not want to come forward, there

:11:31.:11:37.

is work to do. No, I don't think the pendulum has swung too far. I think

:11:38.:11:40.

we're right to be investigating these things. What I'm concerned

:11:41.:11:44.

about is, why did it take ten months for example to ask Lord Bramall's

:11:45.:11:50.

crucial witnesses after it was revealed that he was being

:11:51.:11:54.

investigated? Why did we know that he was being investigated? How did

:11:55.:12:00.

that happen? Not just in his case but Jim Davidson's case and other

:12:01.:12:05.

cases outside that, the question here is not our wee investigating

:12:06.:12:08.

think we should not be investigating, but how are we

:12:09.:12:11.

investigating them and is the right process being used to do that? Do

:12:12.:12:16.

you accept there is an issue there? Around processes? Around the time it

:12:17.:12:23.

takes. Somebody like Lord Bramall is being investigated and nothing seems

:12:24.:12:27.

to happen for month after month. Absolutely, I think it raises really

:12:28.:12:31.

serious questions. Going back to Bernard Hogan-Howe referring it to

:12:32.:12:34.

review, I think that's a very good thing. But it's not helping the

:12:35.:12:39.

victims if there is a long and undue delay. Absolutely. Was common sense

:12:40.:12:46.

being applied? That is the thing we have had to learn about Operation

:12:47.:12:51.

Midland. It fails victims if you spend ?27 million a year, 27

:12:52.:12:56.

officers, ?2 million a year spent on something that ends up showing

:12:57.:13:00.

nothing. We have to ask where the police come whether they became

:13:01.:13:06.

carried away with the idea that the investigation must be correct

:13:07.:13:09.

because they were conducting it and then went on conducting it and said

:13:10.:13:14.

things were true that now looks very questionable. Obviously we don't

:13:15.:13:16.

know what happened but it really does look very questionable. We have

:13:17.:13:21.

to see whether common was applied. Is that an issue? I think Danny has

:13:22.:13:25.

hit the nail on the head, absolutely right. One wider point around this,

:13:26.:13:31.

I think the media firestorm it's fair to say around this has a

:13:32.:13:35.

dangerous side-effect. It tends to narrow the debate down to, it's just

:13:36.:13:40.

a VIP thing, it's just a celebrity thing. The more general point is

:13:41.:13:44.

that most of the abuse of children happens within a family environment,

:13:45.:13:49.

or a wider community environment. That is the failure to recognise

:13:50.:13:54.

that. That is another point of agreement because your piece today,

:13:55.:13:59.

your broader concern that the police are too conscious of public and

:14:00.:14:02.

press opinion when they come to choose what they are doing? I think

:14:03.:14:08.

that's true. I think in normal circumstances, had they had this

:14:09.:14:13.

particular case brought to them, they would not have regarded it as

:14:14.:14:19.

being true and credible. They were carried away, I think we will

:14:20.:14:23.

discover, by the fact that there had been a public furore, and something

:14:24.:14:31.

that to me looks like it did make terribly much sense... That Timmy

:14:32.:14:43.

fails the victims. -- that to me fails the victims. It's not a

:14:44.:14:48.

question of choosing between this investigation and not doing anything

:14:49.:14:51.

about child abuse. It's quite the opposite. We need to leave it there.

:14:52.:14:54.

Thank you very much indeed both. The old saying goes financial

:14:55.:15:00.

markets have predicted nine Well, with everything going on now,

:15:01.:15:02.

should we make that ten? The markets have been

:15:03.:15:06.

gyrating, and gyrating The FTSE is down 9% this year,

:15:07.:15:08.

and we haven't even reached But before you ready yourself

:15:09.:15:12.

for a massacre, and go out and stock up on bottled water or canned goods,

:15:13.:15:17.

you should ask whether the economic So let's have a go at making

:15:18.:15:20.

sense of what's going on. Start big and then

:15:21.:15:27.

we will zoom down. China isn't performing as it was,

:15:28.:15:29.

and that's causing problems Western countries were hoping

:15:30.:15:34.

to sell their wares there, In fact, just this morning

:15:35.:15:37.

manufacturing figures came out for Britain, and they

:15:38.:15:42.

were pretty poor. Output of factories

:15:43.:15:45.

shrinking not growing. Over in the US, the chair

:15:46.:15:50.

of the Federal Reserve admitted today it's all enough

:15:51.:15:54.

to make us wary. As is always the case, the economic

:15:55.:15:57.

outlook is uncertain. Foreign economic

:15:58.:16:01.

developments in particular Now the next thing to worry about,

:16:02.:16:05.

there isn't much ammo in the central That's worrying enough,

:16:06.:16:14.

but then some central banks have resorted to a weird new weapon,

:16:15.:16:21.

negative interest rates. Yup, the central bank

:16:22.:16:26.

says to ordinary banks if you want to keep your

:16:27.:16:28.

cash with us, you pay, I do not think anybody thought

:16:29.:16:32.

genuinely that one of the world's biggest central banks,

:16:33.:16:40.

let alone two, would go This is supposed to be

:16:41.:16:42.

unprecedented, and remember It's become all the fashion as a way

:16:43.:16:48.

of persuading banks not to sit The ECB, Japan and Sweden,

:16:49.:16:55.

among others, are trying it. Which allows us to zoom

:16:56.:17:02.

in to the next level You see, when interest rates

:17:03.:17:06.

are negative, banks That's one reason why their shares

:17:07.:17:10.

are being pummelled right now. The era of banks not meant to be

:17:11.:17:16.

sitting on their money is one Then we can zoom a little

:17:17.:17:23.

further into market fears. Not just banks, one bank

:17:24.:17:31.

in particular, Deutsche Bank. It's not a pipsqueak,

:17:32.:17:35.

and there are concerns it may need to buttress its finances,

:17:36.:17:37.

raise more capital. Its share price is down

:17:38.:17:41.

even more than the rest. Deutsche Bank were already

:17:42.:17:45.

struggling in the good times. They had a high cost

:17:46.:17:48.

base and were really Then you get a downturn,

:17:49.:17:51.

their share price falls and on top It is a toxic mix

:17:52.:17:57.

for a company that was The bank says it's fine,

:17:58.:18:04.

and its share price jumped today, but nobody wants to think of big

:18:05.:18:12.

banks even having to answer With me now are Pippa Malmgren,

:18:13.:18:15.

who was an economic advisor to President George W Bush,

:18:16.:18:22.

and John Bilton, who is Head of Global Multi-Asset Strategy at JP

:18:23.:18:24.

Morgan Asset Management. How worried are you? How worried

:18:25.:18:36.

should you really be as opposed to market worries? Markets are very

:18:37.:18:42.

worried, but it is not only about the issue you have talked about.

:18:43.:18:48.

There are many issues. The Chinese reserves have suddenly collapsed and

:18:49.:18:52.

the IMF says they have fallen to below the level of the safe zone.

:18:53.:18:57.

The country everybody thought was so rich. Saudi Arabia have announced

:18:58.:19:01.

their Macs have to do a dead issue because the oil prices are low and

:19:02.:19:09.

they are saying they may have to sell their crown jewels. Economies

:19:10.:19:15.

are in trouble. This is problematic. The US started raising interest

:19:16.:19:21.

rates and are not going to reverse, which is a positive sign, not

:19:22.:19:26.

negative, but people are nervous about the higher interest rate

:19:27.:19:32.

environment from the US. The markets are famously fragile and will jump

:19:33.:19:36.

at the first thing. How worried should they be? When I calibrate

:19:37.:19:42.

markets I think about the level of growth, whether there is liquidity,

:19:43.:19:47.

and deal risks. One of the things we have at the moment is that most of

:19:48.:19:51.

the major economies are growing but not very much, a couple of percent

:19:52.:19:55.

in the UK and the US and perhaps under that in the eurozone. When we

:19:56.:20:01.

see liquidity being withdrawn, by the central bank or because reserve

:20:02.:20:05.

managers are no longer buying assets and tail risks are picked up... You

:20:06.:20:14.

mean these small things... Exactly, politics, issues in markets like

:20:15.:20:19.

China. Financial markets have to be calibrate and if growth is not

:20:20.:20:23.

strong enough to offset these then markets have to repriced. This is an

:20:24.:20:28.

mike interesting idea. What is going on is there has been a shift. The

:20:29.:20:33.

markets know the prices they had our roll but it is a messy business to

:20:34.:20:40.

get the new prices. China has slowed down. A famous investor back in the

:20:41.:20:47.

day used to say the markets were e-voting machine in the short term

:20:48.:20:50.

and a weighing machine in the long-term. Voting processes are

:20:51.:20:55.

messy. As we begin to weigh the level of growth than the true level

:20:56.:21:00.

of risk and liquidity, and we get support from central banks, who do

:21:01.:21:04.

not want to see that financial system fail, we will see, times

:21:05.:21:09.

ahead but the idea we get some sort of sharp rebound once the market

:21:10.:21:13.

finds its feet is also wide of the mark. This is probably going to be

:21:14.:21:18.

year of some concern but positive growth. Central banks doing stuff,

:21:19.:21:24.

everybody thinks about the fact that the central banks do not really have

:21:25.:21:31.

anything left. No. The central banks have no alternative plan. Someone

:21:32.:21:38.

asked if I thought they had the plan in the first place. This negative

:21:39.:21:42.

interest rate idea which people have a hard time getting their head

:21:43.:21:45.

around. Central banks have no experience of doing it. If I want to

:21:46.:21:50.

give my money to the British government I have to pay the British

:21:51.:21:58.

government. You play borrow money -- pay to borrow money, we did not know

:21:59.:22:04.

you had to pay to save money. Compelled to put your money to work

:22:05.:22:09.

on something like property or the stock market. It is a mechanism for

:22:10.:22:13.

forcing you to take risk you might not otherwise take. But just banks.

:22:14.:22:21.

The onus will be passed on. When I put my money in the bank they charge

:22:22.:22:26.

me. They are going to charge you more. Without a doubt. They have to

:22:27.:22:35.

make the money up somewhere. It has to be already streakers, including

:22:36.:22:43.

the public. How worried should we be? -- all risk takers. If the banks

:22:44.:22:55.

are operating in a low interest environment it is hard for them to

:22:56.:22:59.

make money. Concern over earnings is not surprising. What has come back

:23:00.:23:04.

some of the non-performing loan concerns and places like Italy have

:23:05.:23:08.

been back on table again. The banks are way better capitalised. Are

:23:09.:23:13.

they? I remember people saying that in 2005. Yes, but we were down to 3%

:23:14.:23:20.

and it is into double figures. They are. They conducted a series of

:23:21.:23:29.

stress tests which demonstrated how the banks could and would behave in

:23:30.:23:33.

this kind of environment. The capital structures are safe. Is

:23:34.:23:37.

there anything more to fear than fear itself? That is the problem.

:23:38.:23:44.

Markets are over estimating fear. With the oil price this law people

:23:45.:23:48.

are thinking maybe the value of the investment banks have to be written

:23:49.:23:54.

down and it is the losses that they have not fully considered, to China,

:23:55.:24:00.

to oil, to the tech sector. Things to be gloomy about, but let us not

:24:01.:24:04.

overdo it until we have more information.

:24:05.:24:06.

You may remember the name from the 1980s - a chemical compound

:24:07.:24:11.

that was recognised as dangerous decades ago.

:24:12.:24:13.

In fact the use of PCBs in this country was outlawed in 1981,

:24:14.:24:16.

but it still persists in the environment.

:24:17.:24:19.

Scientists are now warning that they could wipe out Europe's

:24:20.:24:21.

Researchers have held a crisis meeting this week to discuss

:24:22.:24:25.

Our reporter has more, and we should warn those

:24:26.:24:31.

with delicate sensibilities there are some quite graphic

:24:32.:24:33.

Intelligent, formidable hunters, graceful swimmers.

:24:34.:24:44.

Killer whales and dolphins are everyone's favourite

:24:45.:24:47.

marine mammals but in Europe's oceans their numbers have been

:24:48.:24:51.

This is the Zoological Society of London, where scientists have

:24:52.:25:07.

been trying to figure out what has been

:25:08.:25:09.

Whenever you hear up of a cetacean being

:25:10.:25:13.

stranded on the UK coastline the team here become involved.

:25:14.:25:18.

When a marine mammal is found dead a marine

:25:19.:25:21.

investigation gets under way as quickly as possible.

:25:22.:25:24.

Today it is this harbour porpoise that was found washed up

:25:25.:25:27.

on the beach in Devon that is about to undergo its postmortem.

:25:28.:25:30.

Scientists are finding in case after case these animals'

:25:31.:25:33.

bodies are loaded with a toxic chemical that many of us thought

:25:34.:25:37.

PCBs, or polychlorinated biphenyls, were

:25:38.:25:44.

Heralded for their stability, they were used

:25:45.:25:48.

in everything from plastics to paints, lubricants and cement.

:25:49.:25:55.

It was later realised PCBs are toxic,

:25:56.:25:58.

hence a sequence of bans across the world through much

:25:59.:26:01.

Despite this, PCBs have stuck around.

:26:02.:26:07.

Many landfill sites contain the materials that use them

:26:08.:26:11.

and they are leaching into the waterways,

:26:12.:26:14.

working their way into the marine food chain.

:26:15.:26:17.

This is the blubber sample we take which is what

:26:18.:26:20.

we would test for the chemical pollutants.

:26:21.:26:23.

Around Europe, tests are being carried out on over 1000

:26:24.:26:25.

Every single one was contaminated with PCBs.

:26:26.:26:31.

You can see the skin and the blubber, the blubber layer,

:26:32.:26:44.

the PCBs are invisible, the invisible killer,

:26:45.:26:46.

This doctor is one of the researchers in this area.

:26:47.:26:49.

The levels of the PCBs in some species in Europe are the highest

:26:50.:26:52.

If we have very high concentrations then there is a range of toxic

:26:53.:26:56.

effects and probably the one we are most worried

:26:57.:26:59.

about is the suppression of reproduction, that

:27:00.:27:01.

basically the dolphins stop reproducing normally,

:27:02.:27:04.

and we think it is having a devastating effect

:27:05.:27:06.

With samples of the blubber removed for testing they are able to open

:27:07.:27:13.

What we have actually found is that the animal is pregnant

:27:14.:27:24.

Also the cervix is dilated so I can get my

:27:25.:27:27.

hand through so she has obviously recently aborted.

:27:28.:27:33.

There is no foetus in here and it does look as if there

:27:34.:27:36.

This infection proved to be the cause of death for both

:27:37.:27:40.

The doctor believes marine mammals are more susceptible to such

:27:41.:27:45.

infections when they have a high concentration

:27:46.:27:47.

This line is the threshold for what is

:27:48.:27:55.

considered to be tolerable level of PCBs in animals.

:27:56.:27:59.

Harbour porpoises are doing badly enough but look at the levels found

:28:00.:28:03.

It is estimated 1.1 million tonnes of PCB contaminated

:28:04.:28:10.

The darkest areas of red show the parts of Europe with the most

:28:11.:28:18.

PCB laden material yet to be disposed of.

:28:19.:28:23.

We are dealing with a big legacy, but you need to make

:28:24.:28:26.

sure that the marine mammal problem is kept in proportion.

:28:27.:28:30.

We have had PCB problems in other marine

:28:31.:28:34.

mammals in the past, for instance seals in the Baltic.

:28:35.:28:37.

The seal population is now recovering.

:28:38.:28:39.

The PCB problem has not completely gone

:28:40.:28:42.

away but it has been largely dealt with.

:28:43.:28:44.

It takes quite a lot of time to take these PCBs out of the system.

:28:45.:28:51.

PCBs can be cleared to help future generations but it is not easy.

:28:52.:28:55.

One way is incineration of the remaining

:28:56.:28:58.

materials that contain them but to do the job temperatures must

:28:59.:29:01.

If we could get the PCB concentration down now

:29:02.:29:08.

significantly, and that is a big ask, but if we could do that I think

:29:09.:29:12.

these populations would eventually recover, so there is a reason

:29:13.:29:17.

for optimism but if we do not do anything we will slowly lose

:29:18.:29:20.

the last few killer whales and it will

:29:21.:29:23.

be a terrible tragedy, it really will.

:29:24.:29:32.

But, away from the picket lines, negotiations seem to be coming

:29:33.:29:35.

Today, you might have noticed junior doctors have been on strike.

:29:36.:29:39.

But, away from the picket lines, negotiations seem to be coming

:29:40.:29:41.

to an end without the doctors' union and the government having come

:29:42.:29:44.

So ministers may be about to impose new terms and conditions

:29:45.:29:49.

on junior doctors, whether they like it or not.

:29:50.:29:51.

So, Chris, what has actually happened in terms of negotiations?

:29:52.:30:05.

Normally at the end of a striking day or in the middle of one as we

:30:06.:30:09.

are now, you talk about turnout, how has the strike gone? The big thing

:30:10.:30:13.

that has happened today has been an exchange of letters between someone

:30:14.:30:17.

called Sir David Dalton, who is negotiating for the Government, and

:30:18.:30:22.

the leader of the doctors union. The letter makes a number of points that

:30:23.:30:26.

they would like the BMA to accent, tweaks to the contract. The say this

:30:27.:30:31.

is their final offer, if the BMA don't accept it, negotiations are

:30:32.:30:42.

over and the BMA will -- the government will impose a contract on

:30:43.:30:46.

junior doctors. We could get an imposition of a new contract within

:30:47.:30:50.

the next week. Right. So what actually happens then? Do the

:30:51.:30:56.

doctors say OK, we've lost, and go back to work? This is a political

:30:57.:31:00.

game. It is fundamentally a question of whether the BMA thinks that if

:31:01.:31:03.

they continue to strike and fight, and they would have legal right to

:31:04.:31:07.

continue striking over this, they would retain public sympathy and

:31:08.:31:11.

they would be able to cause enough political discomfort for Jeremy Hunt

:31:12.:31:14.

and David Cameron that they will eventually backed down and they will

:31:15.:31:18.

be able to win new concessions. It's quite happy that the Government is

:31:19.:31:24.

happy to let things like this come out and they will put the squeeze

:31:25.:31:27.

on. We may find that tomorrow morning the BMA comes and say three

:31:28.:31:32.

out of four of those points we are quite happy with, is that enough? It

:31:33.:31:36.

certainly looks like it's coming to quite a confrontational head at the

:31:37.:31:38.

moment. "All my life, I had been a liar,

:31:39.:31:39.

a thief and a cheat". The opening words of a new memoir

:31:40.:31:43.

from a man who calls himself Locked up for 20 years for his part

:31:44.:31:46.

in two brutal murders, the book is about childhood,

:31:47.:31:50.

prison and redemption. We'll talk to Mr James in a moment,

:31:51.:31:52.

but first our reporter looks back Erwin James' prison sentence aged 28

:31:53.:31:55.

would perhaps have come as no After his mother died when he was

:31:56.:32:03.

seven and with an absentee, alcoholic and violent father,

:32:04.:32:07.

Erwin had lived a life of crime. In 1982, during a series

:32:08.:32:12.

of robberies and muggings, He fled to Lille and joined

:32:13.:32:14.

the French Foreign Legion. A judge described him as brutal,

:32:15.:32:18.

vicious and callous, and sentenced him to 14 years behind

:32:19.:32:24.

bars, a prison term Erwin was in grim company,

:32:25.:32:27.

as he describes in his book. But two discoveries whilst in prison

:32:28.:32:48.

changed Erwin's life. The first was meeting Joan,

:32:49.:32:53.

a prison psychologist who made him The second discovery

:32:54.:32:58.

was his ability to write, well. And he was commissioned to pen

:32:59.:33:28.

a column on prison life under a pseudonym for the Guardian

:33:29.:33:32.

newspaper, with all In this new book, for which Erwin,

:33:33.:33:34.

controversially for some, will keep the proceeds,

:33:35.:33:40.

he goes further than ever Is this just the latest act of self

:33:41.:33:42.

justification by Or is his frankness to tell

:33:43.:33:48.

all a sign of how rehabilitated An all too rare example

:33:49.:33:53.

of what David Cameron was calling for earlier this week

:33:54.:33:57.

when he visited this Today Erwin takes another step

:33:58.:34:00.

in his public rehabilitation. Good evening, thanks for coming in.

:34:01.:34:16.

20 years for those two murders. Did you think that punishment fit the

:34:17.:34:23.

crime? I mean, that's a question I can't really answer. I took what was

:34:24.:34:27.

coming to me. The judge sentenced me to the mandatory life term, two life

:34:28.:34:35.

terms. Was the punishment enough? A lot of people would say not long

:34:36.:34:38.

enough. A lot of people would say I should have been executed. We are

:34:39.:34:48.

not very forgiving or tolerant. But you're not a bitter? You don't feel

:34:49.:34:53.

you were mistreated? You accept you had done wrong? I knew I deserved to

:34:54.:34:59.

be there. Most people know that. It's what happens when you're in

:35:00.:35:03.

there that is of interest to me. You go into a lot of detail. It's

:35:04.:35:07.

conspicuous that you don't detail the actual crimes. I wonder why you

:35:08.:35:12.

felt you didn't want to put the murders in the book. You don't hide

:35:13.:35:16.

them, obviously the newspaper accounts are there, but it's not

:35:17.:35:21.

something you... I think I've caused enough pain already for people. I

:35:22.:35:28.

think starting to be overly expressionistic about those terrible

:35:29.:35:32.

events would just be too appalling. It's bad enough for some people,

:35:33.:35:36.

it's distressing that I'm actually here talking to you and I've written

:35:37.:35:40.

a book and become a writer. This was never in my plan. When I went to

:35:41.:35:44.

jail, I never had a plan. There was no sense I was going to live again.

:35:45.:35:48.

I'm not going to ask you to detail them but do you remember the murders

:35:49.:35:54.

vividly? Absolutely. Do you feel like you are the same human new word

:35:55.:35:59.

then? You've obviously had an enormous journey since then. I'm the

:36:00.:36:04.

same man but I went into prison without any real character, without

:36:05.:36:07.

any real sense of morality or honesty or integrity, any of that

:36:08.:36:13.

sort of stuff. And I just, it was a journey in their, I mean, it was

:36:14.:36:18.

about survival but it was also a learning experience for me. Prison

:36:19.:36:26.

is a place where, it's a robust place, a precarious place. What

:36:27.:36:31.

there's an army of people working in those prisons trying to help people

:36:32.:36:34.

like I was trying to become better people. It's not about just giving

:36:35.:36:39.

me a better lifestyle but so that we come out and not harmed more people.

:36:40.:36:44.

Redemption is a really interesting topic. As you say, there are a lot

:36:45.:36:48.

of people who would like to see the murderers hanged. I wonder whether

:36:49.:36:54.

you think we just underestimate the capacity for redemption. Did you see

:36:55.:36:59.

people in prison who were unredeemable and some who were

:37:00.:37:02.

redeemable? I was in prison with every type of offender you could

:37:03.:37:07.

imagine. I was among the worst of the worst. For 20 years I lived with

:37:08.:37:13.

every type of offender you can imagine. I'm not a spokesperson or

:37:14.:37:17.

an apologist for prisoners, I'm not a flag waver for prisoners's writes,

:37:18.:37:22.

but the vast majority of people I met in jail had the desire not to be

:37:23.:37:27.

criminals. But the prison experience makes it almost, not impossible but

:37:28.:37:32.

makes it very difficult for people like I was to overcome those

:37:33.:37:37.

obstacles and become more than we were when we went to prison. Do you

:37:38.:37:44.

feel you are accented back? Example, do you tell your neighbours and

:37:45.:37:48.

friends about your background and history? I mean, now you are

:37:49.:37:52.

publishing a book. But I just wonder whether it's something... I don't

:37:53.:37:58.

like to broadcast the worst about myself, Evan. I'm not saying I'm

:37:59.:38:05.

redeemed. I might hope I'm ready double, but I don't say I'm

:38:06.:38:09.

redeemed. -- I might hope I'm redeemable. I live a reasonably

:38:10.:38:15.

law-abiding life, I do the best I can. I'm grateful I live in a

:38:16.:38:19.

society that gives people like me a second chance. I know that often

:38:20.:38:24.

it's begrudging, that second chance. We have a society that gives people

:38:25.:38:28.

a second chance. Your book is under the name Erwin James. Your real name

:38:29.:38:36.

is James Monaghan. My real name is Erwin James Monaghan. Are you living

:38:37.:38:47.

as Erwin James? Do you think of yourself as to people, almost? Not

:38:48.:38:52.

really. I mean, my family, when they hear me called James, they laugh.

:38:53.:38:59.

I've got an uncle Jim and a cousin James. I have always been Erwin, but

:39:00.:39:07.

in prison Erwin was an unusual name, so I became James, I became big Jim

:39:08.:39:11.

in prison, which is quite a nice thing because big Jim was quite a

:39:12.:39:16.

helpful, dependable person. I quite liked that person. Let's talk about

:39:17.:39:21.

prison a bit. You would come out and think of yourself now not as a

:39:22.:39:24.

spokesman for prisoners but as dumping of a prison reformer. You

:39:25.:39:29.

think it can be better come right? I certainly believe that. I try and

:39:30.:39:35.

support charities like the reader Organisation, the writers in prison

:39:36.:39:39.

network. I tried as a board people who try to use prison effectively

:39:40.:39:43.

and creatively and intelligently. -- try to support people. Do people get

:39:44.:39:49.

annoyed that you, who committed a crime, as someone trying to reform

:39:50.:39:55.

prison? Maybe you have to set it up as a way of reducing crime rather

:39:56.:39:59.

than making prisoners's lights better? I'm not a campaign or a

:40:00.:40:06.

reformer, Evan. I'm just a writer. I was born a writer -- I became a

:40:07.:40:13.

writer on prison landing. I support prison reform not to make

:40:14.:40:15.

prisoners's lives better so that they can have a better time. My

:40:16.:40:22.

first ten years I just had a bucket a toilet, a bed. Politicians outside

:40:23.:40:32.

were telling people that I was living in a holiday camp and it

:40:33.:40:35.

would stop. If we want to think about prisons, we have to know about

:40:36.:40:39.

prisoners and the truth about prisoners, so that... Nobody likes a

:40:40.:40:46.

and all but surely we want criminals to come out of prison less harmful

:40:47.:40:50.

and less likely to cause crime. If we don't use our prisons effectively

:40:51.:40:58.

we are letting down future victims of prison levers. That's all we have

:40:59.:41:04.

time for, I'm afraid. Emily will be here tomorrow. Until then, good

:41:05.:41:05.

night.

:41:06.:41:07.

Are the Met to blame over child abuse investigations? Is the big crash back on? Dolphins have been poisoned in Europe. Plus unmaking a murderer - we meet Erwin James.


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