09/02/2016 Newsnight


09/02/2016

With James O'Brien. EU president Jose Manuel Barroso on migrants, economics and Europe's squabbles. Plus US primaries, the state's power to snoop and London's high-rise craze.


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Transcript


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The great European project bogged down in a migration crisis,

:00:00.:00:11.

with economic stagnation leaving north and south at one anothers'

:00:12.:00:14.

throats and Britain threatening to walk out.

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We'll get the insider's take from former EU President,

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This is an existential crisis of the project, probably the largest crisis

:00:19.:00:37.

in the history of European integration. We will be hearing if

:00:38.:00:45.

Jose Manuel Barroso knows how to sort out the mess.

:00:46.:00:48.

Tonight, the voters of New Hampshire head to the polls.

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We are with the undecideds, who are making their minds up

:00:51.:00:53.

Kenneth Branagh's theatre company brings us the story of the first

:00:54.:00:59.

The audience for Red Velvet are on the edge of their seats,

:01:00.:01:06.

as if this thing was unfolding on the streets

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of London right now, and given in a way how little has

:01:09.:01:11.

If the staunchest of Eurosceptics had got to script the circumstances

:01:12.:01:28.

best suited to their cause as referendum day approaches,

:01:29.:01:30.

they'd have struggled to do a better job than reality.

:01:31.:01:32.

Unprecedented numbers of people entering the European Union,

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the concessions David Cameron is straining to secure from fellow

:01:35.:01:38.

leaders apparently failing to butter many parsnips at home and economic

:01:39.:01:41.

difficulties and disparities growing by the day.

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In a moment we'll hear from the former President

:01:46.:01:47.

of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso,

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but first, just how bad might this backdrop prove

:01:51.:01:52.

We sought the views of three prominent Europe watchers.

:01:53.:02:05.

This is the next system shall crisis of the whole European project,

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probably the largest crisis in the history of European integration. I

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think you could think of it as potentially a perfect storm. The

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migration crisis, that's a very big one. The summer will bring a huge

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peak of refugees trying to cross the Mediterranean. There will be huge

:02:33.:02:37.

pressure on the refugee system. You have the prospect of Brexit, you

:02:38.:02:44.

have Russia and Ukraine, you have the growing strength of Eurosceptic

:02:45.:02:48.

often xenophobic parties of left and right. At the same time in July this

:02:49.:02:54.

year, Greece has got to repay the European Central Bank 3.5 billion

:02:55.:03:00.

euros, it is not clear how Greece will do that. Many of these crises

:03:01.:03:05.

reinforce each other, so the chances of Brexit are reinforced both by the

:03:06.:03:10.

bad performances of the eurozone and the refugee crisis. Putin bombing

:03:11.:03:16.

Syria increases the chances of another refugee crisis, which would

:03:17.:03:20.

destabilise the European Union and divert attention from Ukraine, as he

:03:21.:03:26.

well knows. Each reinforces the other. This is a pretty critical

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time in geopolitical terms because the US has been accused and is seen

:03:32.:03:37.

as not having shown sufficient leadership in the last few years.

:03:38.:03:43.

You are going now into an election. You have Russia resurgent and very

:03:44.:03:49.

assertive on the other hand, so the role that Europe should be playing

:03:50.:03:54.

is simply not there right now. Even in the core countries of the

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European Union, even in Germany and France, the reaction that we must

:03:58.:04:04.

say yes whatever it costs is not as strong as it used to be. Europe is

:04:05.:04:10.

being weakened because of its lack of unity at a time when European

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unity and European leadership is most needed. It takes away from

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European Union the one great strength it has got which is

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standing together, offering a credible voice to a belligerent

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Russia or a troubled Middle East, or uncertain capital markets, one

:04:36.:04:40.

voice. But if Britain votes to leave or votes to stay but with a large

:04:41.:04:44.

percentage wanting to leave, it puts a crack in the credibility of the

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European Union. A pretty bleak picture for the Prime Minister.

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Earlier I spoke to the former President of the European

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I asked him how impressed he was so far by David Cameron's management of

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the campaign to stay in the EU. I think so far Prime Minister Cameron

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has done the right thing. He has got to fight for his position. He knows

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it is a very difficult issue in the European Union and he tried to get a

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consensus of all the member states so I think the issue is now well

:05:23.:05:27.

prepared and I hope there will be an agreement during the European

:05:28.:05:33.

summit. How optimistic are you? How realistic is full consensus on the

:05:34.:05:38.

brake off in work benefits for migrant workers? From what I know

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from European Union countries, they are all willing Britain to remain in

:05:44.:05:49.

the European Union. This issue of benefits and freedom of movement is

:05:50.:05:54.

very sensible for some of the countries of European union. We have

:05:55.:05:59.

got to understand that, but in the end everybody wants Britain remain.

:06:00.:06:04.

I think compromise is on the table, it is creative, it is always these

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legal compromises are difficult to build but it is a creative and

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intelligent one, so I hope at the end there will be a consensus

:06:17.:06:24.

because the main issue is how to express a position that will enable

:06:25.:06:28.

Prime Minister Cameron to go to the British people and say we have a

:06:29.:06:33.

good deal. If the issue was about benefits, and the abuse of social

:06:34.:06:39.

benefits, because it is true different countries have different

:06:40.:06:44.

levels of social benefits, I think this can work as a compromise.

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Acceptable to fellow leaders. Do you honestly believe it will have the

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slightest bearing upon the ambitions of Polish, or French workers to

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come? Do you think it would put anybody off exercising their freedom

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of movement? Of course the other countries can do the same, it is not

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only for Britain. The idea is also that it can also exist for the

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others, so in terms of the general principle of fairness, I think we

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can defend it. Do you think it would put off anybody from coming here to

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work? No, frankly not. It depends on the conditions of the Labour market.

:07:30.:07:37.

It depends what will happen in the future. We have seen different

:07:38.:07:41.

situations. There are many British people living outside, but I think

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people that want to go to Britain, if of course the basic rights of the

:07:50.:07:54.

people are insured, they will be willing to go. But of course with

:07:55.:08:03.

slightly different conditions. Do you understand David Cameron's, the

:08:04.:08:07.

importance he places on the issue of British sovereignty, the desire he

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holds to somehow safeguard sovereignty in the context of

:08:13.:08:15.

legislation? Does it make sense to you as a former European leader

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yourself? Former European and national leader so I understand the

:08:24.:08:28.

issues of sovereignty, I was 12 years in my national governments

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including as Prime Minister, so we should think it is not only Britain

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that cares about sovereignty. We all want to have the rights of our

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country respected. The question is how to do it. Frankly, I believe

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that in the 21st century, in the age of globalisation, we are better

:08:50.:08:53.

protecting our sovereignty, our de facto power in the world, if you are

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together. A country of 60 or even 80 million people cannot defend its

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rights and values in front of countries with 1.3 billion or 1.5

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billion as could happen soon in some countries in the world, if we are

:09:16.:09:20.

alone, so we share sovereignty. At the same time I understand that in

:09:21.:09:26.

the British culture, it is not only Prime Minister Cameron, it has been

:09:27.:09:32.

different governments and parties, there is some kind of

:09:33.:09:35.

exceptionalism. The way the British look at Europe is different from the

:09:36.:09:41.

way the French, German or Spanish and Portuguese look at Europe. This

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is a common project where Britain is one of the most important

:09:48.:09:51.

shareholders, and from Tony Blair with General climate change to

:09:52.:09:57.

Margaret Thatcher for enlargement and the internal market, and David

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Cameron, Britain has been leading Europe, and I believe that is where

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Britain should be. There was nothing incremental about Angela Merkel's

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decision to welcome 1 million people into Germany, and if they become

:10:12.:10:15.

naturalised that is 1 million people who could set out for any other

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member state a couple of years down the line. That was not a decision

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based on consensus, do you think she overreached herself? No, she took

:10:27.:10:31.

the decision and she was entitled to do it. Let's imagine for a second

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that the first message coming from Germany would be the opposite one.

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How do you react? Germany closing the doors? Then I would be more

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concerned, if I saw a nationalistic Germany. I think what Angela Merkel

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has done was extremely important for Germany. Now they are trying to

:10:53.:10:59.

adapt and they will do it. But you understand why many British voters

:11:00.:11:04.

worry about the arrival in Germany and EU citizenship making them

:11:05.:11:08.

possible arrivals here imminently? It is a huge issue. No, but I

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understand the point and it has been exaggerated to some extent. It

:11:17.:11:21.

hasn't been exaggerated, there are 1 million people. It does not mean

:11:22.:11:26.

citizenship. What would the European Union looked like without Britain in

:11:27.:11:33.

it? It can happen, I hope it will not because it will be weaker. The

:11:34.:11:38.

United Kingdom is one of the most important countries in the world,

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but everyone from Berlin to Warsaw and Madrid understands it to be

:11:46.:11:50.

negative. Jose Manuel Barroso, many thanks. How much of our privacy

:11:51.:11:54.

should we be prepared to surrender to agencies

:11:55.:12:14.

charged with protecting us? Benjamin Franklin was addressing it

:12:15.:12:20.

directly in the 18th Century. Today, though, Parliament's

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Intelligence and Security Committee reported that Home Secretary

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Theresa May's draft Investigatory Powers Bill does not

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do enough to protect the privacy of ordinary citizens or address

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concerns about spying raised by Edward Snowden's

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recent revelations. Setting and nets to catch the guilty

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often snares the innocent too. In this hit TV show, the police tap the

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calls made from phone boxes, lots of data gathered, most of it useless,

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but with the technology that existed at that time, there was an absolute

:12:47.:12:50.

limit to how many targets the police could track. The ability of security

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agencies like MI5 to eavesdrop on people is now infinitely greater

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than putting a few devices in phone boxes. We are now most people

:13:04.:13:09.

spewing out vast amounts of electronic data without even knowing

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it, on large numbers of databases and registers, so how can the

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agencies keep people safe without turning us into some sort of

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surveillance data? That is the problem parliament is wrestling

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with. In November the Government set out what it thinks is going on here

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and at other agencies as well as the police should be regulated. The

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legislation we are proposing is unprecedented, it will provide

:13:41.:13:43.

transparency about our investigatory Powers, it will provide the

:13:44.:13:46.

strongest safeguards and world leading oversight arrangements.

:13:47.:13:52.

Today the Parliamentary committee gave its verdict, broadly supportive

:13:53.:13:56.

but with some important criticisms. The committee says the draft bill

:13:57.:14:00.

seems unclear on what it is trying to do. It has, says the committee,

:14:01.:14:05.

perhaps suffered from a lack of sufficient time and preparation. The

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committee says the report doesn't go far enough in protecting privacy,

:14:11.:14:14.

which it says should form the backbone of the draft legislation

:14:15.:14:19.

around which the exceptional powers are built, whilst recent terrorist

:14:20.:14:23.

attacks, it goes on, have shown the importance of the work the agencies

:14:24.:14:33.

do in protecting us, this cannot be used as an excuse to ignore

:14:34.:14:34.

underlying principles. It is to reconcile privacy with

:14:35.:14:43.

national security. We hoped there would be a general statement about

:14:44.:14:46.

privacy and a demonstration as to how that that might be properly

:14:47.:14:51.

intrude into and how the authorisation process would work in

:14:52.:14:56.

each of the activities of agencies. Instead there are different types of

:14:57.:15:02.

protections and authorisations needed for different categories of

:15:03.:15:06.

information. But in some cases the same information can be gathered in

:15:07.:15:10.

different ways. Sometimes I needs authorises, sometimes not. The

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commission questioned the power for what you or I would call hacking.

:15:17.:15:21.

There are two types - targeted and bulk. But the definition of targeted

:15:22.:15:27.

is so wide that the committee said bulk powers are not needed. That

:15:28.:15:32.

means everybody and targeted powers could mean everybody. Without

:15:33.:15:37.

clarity, how can we feel safe if we are going about our day-to-day

:15:38.:15:41.

business and not involved any criminal activity that we can be

:15:42.:15:46.

left alone to live to be a good citizen? You swear that the

:15:47.:15:57.

affidavit is true. In The Wire the cops get a judge to sign off the

:15:58.:16:03.

wire taps, but with security and intelligence work is not that

:16:04.:16:06.

straight forward. So much has to remain secret. Even from our elected

:16:07.:16:11.

representatives. It is official. You're up.

:16:12.:16:19.

It may feel as though we've already gorged on hyperbole,

:16:20.:16:23.

shock tactics and unprecedented challenges to the political status

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quo, but the story of November's American presidential

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Just the second page will be turned later tonight when the ballot closes

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in the New Hampshire Primary and self-styled mavericks

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Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders discover whether they've translated

:16:36.:16:37.

impressive poll leads into votes that could take them closer

:16:38.:16:43.

to becoming, respectively, the Republican and Democrat

:16:44.:16:45.

Emily's live in Manchester, New Hampshire, reading the runes.

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Good evening from New Hampshire, where they have reported record

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turnout for this first US presidential primary.

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More than half a million people are expected to vote today -

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many beating a path through heavy snow to do so.

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This is a famously late deciding state -

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a third of Republican voters still trying to decide.

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And it's a state which lives by its own motto -

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They like to surprise people here - none more so than pollsters.

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All of which adds last minute volatility to a wild campaign.

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This is the state where Barack Obama seemed a safe bet in 2008 -

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until Hillary went from ten points behind to beating him.

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This is the race that landed John Maccain a landslide victory

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in 2000, but he lost the nomination to George Bush.

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This state is overwhemlingly white and overwhelmingly secular -

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for that reason it doesn't represent the constituecies that make up

:17:54.:18:02.

the Democrats or Republicans as a whole.

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But here's an early snapshot of polling day so far.

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They take their role seriously here in New Hampshire.

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As early indicators of the electoral race, and they start

:18:10.:18:11.

Catherine has come here to vote, but she still doesn't know who for.

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I guess we'll figure out once we get into the booth where my pencil

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It's the Catherines of New Hampshire that make this

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30% of likely Republican voters say they go to the polls

:18:26.:18:32.

But some tell me their decision has been easy.

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I want to bring the United States back to where it used to be

:18:36.:18:39.

We found the man himself almost by accident when he walked

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into a diner this morning and my cameraman threw

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Are you done with being in second place?

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Trump has led here in New Hampshire in the last 75 polls,

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it would be astonishing - in polling terms -

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But this is a state that thrives on surprise.

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Famously independent-minded, new voters can

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Those unregistered with either party can still vote for them today.

:19:06.:19:10.

On the Democratic side, momentum may be

:19:11.:19:13.

with Bernie Sanders, but all those we found

:19:14.:19:15.

And was that an easy choice for you?

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I think she is going to do the best in a general election

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Throughout the day more than half a million people

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But if there's one thing you need to know about the result tonight

:19:32.:19:36.

it's this - the polls got Iowa wrong, historically they get

:19:37.:19:39.

New Hampshire wrong too and indeed the two new ones that emerged

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If you're waiting for a result that makes any sort of sense,

:19:43.:19:47.

We get the results about 9 o'clock tonight. But let's unpick the race

:19:48.:20:03.

with Caitlin Collins. She has been following the Trump campaign. You

:20:04.:20:07.

were last night at the event behind us and it was an extraordinary sort

:20:08.:20:14.

of thing. Yes if there is one thing about New Hampshire, they love

:20:15.:20:19.

Donald Trump. He held a rally here and although it was snowing like

:20:20.:20:24.

crazy, 5,000 people came to see Donald Trump. Was loud and insane

:20:25.:20:29.

and it is obvious they love Donald Trump. What is it about this place

:20:30.:20:35.

or him? They like how outspoken he is and refreshing and they have had

:20:36.:20:39.

eight years of same thing and they're ready for a change and

:20:40.:20:43.

candidates like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders have done so well

:20:44.:20:46.

here. There was expectation on him ahead of Iowa, do you think it might

:20:47.:20:51.

be over hyped here? I don't think so, because innist wo, it was

:20:52.:20:59.

tougher for Donald Trump to win, it is a state of conservatives and a

:21:00.:21:05.

lot of his supporters are not registered with the Republican Party

:21:06.:21:08.

or don't decide until the last minute. He needs those voters. It

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makes him easier to win here. When you hear record turn out, do you

:21:15.:21:19.

think that will favour people like Trump and Sanders, the less

:21:20.:21:23.

conventional candidates? Yes, these are people who have never voted

:21:24.:21:28.

before and every where you turn you find a Donald Trump supporters, a

:21:29.:21:34.

way tress told me she voted for him. Everyone loves Donald Trump. I think

:21:35.:21:38.

he is going to sweep the state. You're suggesting that he will

:21:39.:21:43.

eventually be the nominee? Without a doubt. He has a good chance. If he

:21:44.:21:48.

wins New Hampshire, he will take the south, because they love him there.

:21:49.:21:53.

We have two guys from Florida and in Florida, Trump is polling so well

:21:54.:22:00.

and beating them. One of the guys is Marco Rubio, who seemed to be on a

:22:01.:22:03.

high before the debate on Saturday, when he got as it were verbally

:22:04.:22:13.

knifed by Chris Christie. We have no idea of third or fourth place. Now,

:22:14.:22:18.

what Trump should be worried about is who he will be his opponent in

:22:19.:22:25.

the Republican Party. It could be Rubio or Cruz or Carson. You don't

:22:26.:22:31.

dmoe. -- know. People need to see who is going to be in second. Thank

:22:32.:22:36.

you. They say that New Hampshire doesn't always get the whippers

:22:37.:22:41.

right, but it tends to get out the losers. That is still not clear, the

:22:42.:22:47.

list of Republican candidates is very long and we don't have a clue

:22:48.:22:51.

where second and third and fourth will take us. On the democratic side

:22:52.:22:55.

there are two candidates, but that win could be just as complicated

:22:56.:22:59.

going forward. Back to you. Thank you.

:23:00.:23:02.

This seems to be the credo of developers determined

:23:03.:23:10.

But what of the 'starchitects' and foreign billionaires behind

:23:11.:23:13.

many of the mooted 250-odd tower blocks -

:23:14.:23:15.

each with 20 or more storeys - set to rise

:23:16.:23:17.

in the nation's capital in the next few years.

:23:18.:23:20.

Are they compelling proof of a thriving economy,

:23:21.:23:22.

or bankrolling sky-high vanity projects set

:23:23.:23:25.

to become follies of the future while permanently polluting a vista

:23:26.:23:28.

once dominated, even defined, by the dome

:23:29.:23:30.

of Sir Christopher Wren's St Paul's.

:23:31.:23:34.

Or, to borrow Prince Charles's description of another London

:23:35.:23:38.

development, so many monstrous carbuncles?

:23:39.:23:43.

Speaking of which, here's Stephen Smith.

:23:44.:23:56.

Are we looking at the bright new face of nation's thriving capital?

:23:57.:24:04.

Are could this be the uncle of all carbuncles? We have taken data of

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more than 250 new high rises, either under construction or awaiting

:24:12.:24:15.

approval, to reveal how some of London's best known and most

:24:16.:24:22.

expensive views could change. If you're going to change the skyline,

:24:23.:24:25.

you have to consider what the buildings are for. It is not enough

:24:26.:24:31.

simply to have maximum construction activity and we are not making land.

:24:32.:24:35.

London doesn't have enough land for homes. It would be fine if you're

:24:36.:24:39.

building office towers that people will work in and boost the economy.

:24:40.:24:47.

I take exception them building safety deposit boxes for rich

:24:48.:24:50.

Russians and China to stash their cash. Up here on the cable car it is

:24:51.:25:02.

positively alpine. The air is fresh and him pied. You can almost smell

:25:03.:25:09.

the flowers. But what about the visual environment. How will it look

:25:10.:25:14.

on the old industrial units in a few years if the go ahead is given for

:25:15.:25:21.

all the planned skyscrapers developers want to build? Greenwich

:25:22.:25:27.

is practically the home of time and time is money to developers keen on

:25:28.:25:35.

a slice of it. Barbara Vice is part of a resistance movement. Much as

:25:36.:25:39.

people think that these towers deliver housing and contribute to

:25:40.:25:44.

making the housing shortage less severe, in fact they're only flats

:25:45.:25:51.

for the very wealthy 1% and the average Londoner will never be in a

:25:52.:25:55.

position to be able to afford to buy or rent in them. So we are

:25:56.:26:01.

sacrificing our skyline and some of our best monuments and views, views

:26:02.:26:06.

from parks, from conservation areas, for a result that does not benefit

:26:07.:26:16.

London as a whole. No, it is not Newsnight's range of gifts for

:26:17.:26:20.

Valentine's Day, but an ID parade of London's tallest towers. They have

:26:21.:26:27.

their admirers. Well designed tower blocks are wonderful, I love them. I

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love The Shard and the Gherkin and I think the 11 Hall building is one of

:26:37.:26:41.

my favourites. I have come back from New York where there are some

:26:42.:26:47.

spectacular tall buildings that enhance the skyline. We have to look

:26:48.:26:50.

at the quality of the architecture and look at the location and also

:26:51.:26:54.

how they hit the ground is important. The new blocks going up

:26:55.:27:01.

in London right now light up the path of the Thames, spelling out a

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welcome to foreign investment - for better or worse. This maybe be the

:27:07.:27:13.

first unburstable housing bubble. Think of it this way if you live in

:27:14.:27:20.

Russia and you're rich and you could wake up tomorrow and finds yourself

:27:21.:27:25.

in prison. In Hong Kong it could be re-nationalised. To have half of

:27:26.:27:30.

your capital secure in London or New York is a good deal. The more

:27:31.:27:33.

expensive the better the investment opportunity and the more like old

:27:34.:27:38.

bricks it becomes and hence these flats are people are leaving empty

:27:39.:27:43.

or buying an an investment for buy-to-let. It is a commodity and no

:27:44.:27:48.

longer linked with supply and demand. On a clear day, you can see

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the work on London's high rises going like gang busters. But as to

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exactly what it all means, and writ might ends, must of us gaze through

:28:02.:28:04.

a bubble darkly. I'm joined now by the architect

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Eric Parry, who has designed 1 Undershaft, what is set

:28:08.:28:10.

to be the tallest buiding And Simon Jenkins, the former

:28:11.:28:12.

chairman of the National Trust. Why do they have to be so big? In

:28:13.:28:31.

the city of London it is obviously a response to a demand and to a

:28:32.:28:40.

limited area that can be built on. So naturally, there has been I think

:28:41.:28:45.

it is fair to say over the last 20 years a carefully thought through

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topography that won't disturb those key views, that it is within what is

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called the eastern cluster. It is one that has be consulted over and

:28:57.:29:02.

thought through and it is coming towards a conclusion. Because there

:29:03.:29:09.

isn't that much more space. So the critical element is what these

:29:10.:29:12.

buildings give back in that limited territory. This is the city of

:29:13.:29:17.

London, as opposed to Westminster and the other areas. And the key

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ingredient there is the public realm, in a diminishing set of

:29:24.:29:30.

circumstances. So I think the architects' responsibility in that

:29:31.:29:34.

particular circumstance is to make great public space. As an urbanist,

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that is what I feel, the buildings that rise out of that have to be as

:29:40.:29:41.

good as they possibly can be. We can see some of your projections

:29:42.:29:56.

for the next project. You paint a professional and responsible

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picture, there must be some bragging rights involved. You must, when you

:30:00.:30:04.

get together, boast about who has got the biggest building. There is

:30:05.:30:11.

maybe a frisson of interest but it is much more the composition of the

:30:12.:30:16.

whole, and I'm keen, given the density of the cluster, that this

:30:17.:30:21.

and other buildings are able to be identified within that grouping. I

:30:22.:30:26.

think they are buildings that identified within that grouping. I

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speak for the civic rather than simply for the developer or the

:30:32.:30:36.

individual. Simon Jenkins, do these buildings speak for the Civic for

:30:37.:30:45.

you? No, they don't. Why not? The city cluster is no longer a policy

:30:46.:30:49.

because they are building them everywhere. The important thing is

:30:50.:30:56.

that it is just anarchy at the moment. There are 250 towers going

:30:57.:31:05.

up... Not all in the Square Mile. No, but most of them are empty

:31:06.:31:09.

residential, there is no planning concept at all. Nobody says we want

:31:10.:31:20.

this sort of high building, there is no concept of the civic space around

:31:21.:31:25.

them, they are just being crammed in as dense as they can possibly make

:31:26.:31:32.

it to make money, for people most of whom don't live here. Would you be

:31:33.:31:37.

comfortable with the scale of the development if people were moving

:31:38.:31:42.

into them? If people living here already were moving in? There is no

:31:43.:31:49.

need to build high. The Paddington shard, one of the most absurd vanity

:31:50.:31:53.

projects of all time which Boris Johnson wanted, it had 330 flats in

:31:54.:32:04.

it. You would get more flat in a ten story terraced house than that

:32:05.:32:08.

tower, it was a total vanity project. I see with reference to

:32:09.:32:13.

residential projects the wisdom of what you are saying, but you are

:32:14.:32:18.

comfortable then with the 1 Undershaft? Their resistance of how

:32:19.:32:25.

big do you want to go. How big do you want to go, Eric? I object to

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the accusation that architects want to build as high as they can, that

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is nonsense. We are between a planning system and the developers'

:32:40.:32:44.

will, and it is important we take that role responsibly. Bigger isn't

:32:45.:32:50.

best, it is dependent entirely where the development occurs. Are there

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any in London you don't think should have been built? Yes, particularly a

:32:57.:33:03.

number of the gated residential towers that don't know what they are

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doing when they get to the ground, I therefore concur completely that

:33:09.:33:11.

what we should be doing is building in this European city in a sense

:33:12.:33:18.

street and lower rise buildings for residential use that create

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interiors and amenities. I think there is a place for high-rise, but

:33:24.:33:28.

there is also a need to plan better what happens on the ground. I should

:33:29.:33:36.

ask you in the interest of balance whether you like any skyscrapers? I

:33:37.:33:45.

like the Shard, but I would like to see it in the cluster. The policy

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was a good one, broken by one government minister. You break the

:33:58.:34:00.

rule once, you have broken the rules. The Shard was going to be a

:34:01.:34:09.

one-off, there is now a second one. Each one of them wants to be bigger.

:34:10.:34:14.

You have got to have a bigger one in the city, at Canary Wharf. You might

:34:15.:34:25.

not agree, but they generate kudos from the size of their skyscraper. I

:34:26.:34:31.

think that is a reality but there are equal and opposite forces in

:34:32.:34:35.

this business. What I do think is the Shard is an interesting example.

:34:36.:34:43.

When I think of great city skyline is like Lubeck for instance, they

:34:44.:34:52.

speak of tall buildings in that gritty juxtaposition that lends

:34:53.:34:58.

itself, it creates a historic moment. I think that's where we are

:34:59.:35:06.

here. The Shard is an odd one. The Lubeck is nothing to do with these

:35:07.:35:13.

colossal... We are going to have to continue this after the programme, I

:35:14.:35:17.

look forward to it. Thank you very much indeed.

:35:18.:35:19.

The row over the lack of nominations for actors and directors of colour

:35:20.:35:22.

in this year's Oscars has sounded loudly on both sides

:35:23.:35:25.

The ceremony on February 28th is being boycotted by actors such

:35:26.:35:28.

The night before, the leading British actor Adrian Lester

:35:29.:35:31.

will have taken his final bow in a production of Red Velvet

:35:32.:35:34.

The play, written by the actress and writer Lolita Chakrabarti,

:35:35.:35:38.

imagines the life of Ira Aldridge, the black American actor who rose

:35:39.:35:40.

to fame all over Europe in the early 1830s,

:35:41.:35:43.

but whose story has all but been forgotten.

:35:44.:35:49.

Kirsty Wark spoke to the writer and to Kenneth Branagh,

:35:50.:36:00.

in whose season at the Garrick Red Velvet is playing.

:36:01.:36:02.

How did you actually find Ira Aldridge?

:36:03.:36:04.

It was 1998 and Adrian Lester had done reading about him at a theatre

:36:05.:36:07.

festival in Brighton, and he came back and told me a few

:36:08.:36:10.

facts about Ira Aldridge and I couldn't believe I haven't

:36:11.:36:12.

Once you actually researched him, what kind of character did

:36:13.:36:18.

He's a construct of my own imagination really,

:36:19.:36:24.

so I've taken all the facts I have found out about him over the years

:36:25.:36:28.

and there are diary entries and reviews and information

:36:29.:36:30.

about him, and I've infused him with my own experience as an actor.

:36:31.:36:33.

Why did you want to involve it in your season?

:36:34.:36:37.

We've got two or three plays in this season as well as the Shakespeare

:36:38.:36:40.

plays themselves, which comment often on the theatre as a kind

:36:41.:36:44.

of metaphor for human existence that's very illuminating.

:36:45.:36:48.

Mostly it's because I felt the writing itself was multilayered

:36:49.:36:51.

and very strong, the production is excellent, and at the centre

:36:52.:36:54.

of it is a really remarkable performance by Adrian Lester as Ira.

:36:55.:36:58.

You have talked about it being not about race but about being different

:36:59.:37:15.

I think the central thing about being the outsider is prejudice.

:37:16.:37:19.

There are lots of characters throughout it.

:37:20.:37:23.

You've got the black actor in the white acting society,

:37:24.:37:31.

into a male-dominated career when her country is being denied.

:37:32.:37:34.

You've got a French gay theatre manager.

:37:35.:37:37.

The plays that are going to be written, presumably,

:37:38.:37:39.

over the next 20, 30 years are going to be about Syrians coming

:37:40.:37:43.

here, going to be about Somalians coming here,

:37:44.:37:46.

Do you think we're going to become more receptive to their story?

:37:47.:37:51.

Gosh, you know, doing the research for Red Velvet,

:37:52.:37:53.

I thought it's just the same old stuff recycled again.

:37:54.:37:59.

It used to be blacks and moors, then it was the Asians,

:38:00.:38:03.

then the Irish, then it turns into eastern Europeans.

:38:04.:38:06.

It's the same argument that's had about immigration again and again.

:38:07.:38:09.

The audience for Red Velvet are on the edge of their seats

:38:10.:38:11.

as if this thing was unfolding in the streets of London right now,

:38:12.:38:15.

and given in a way how little has changed, frankly it could be.

:38:16.:38:20.

It's also the most diverse audience I have ever sat in.

:38:21.:38:24.

But by and large audiences in London in the West End are white

:38:25.:38:27.

For what it's worth, I'd throw a few statistics your way.

:38:28.:38:32.

We have this ticket lottery for the first couple of rows,

:38:33.:38:34.

the tickets are 15 quid, it goes on sale at midnight,

:38:35.:38:37.

30,000 people have joined up for that.

:38:38.:38:46.

40% of them got into it through social media,

:38:47.:38:49.

which tends to be a younger demographic, a more diverse

:38:50.:38:51.

demographic, and in terms of cinema screenings,

:38:52.:38:58.

which are a fairly new phenomena, our Winter's Tale has now been seen

:38:59.:39:01.

I think it's also about diverse voices really.

:39:02.:39:04.

That's why the audience for Red Velvet is so diverse,

:39:05.:39:07.

because it's a story for all of us about British history

:39:08.:39:09.

A man that all this time had founded his good fortunes

:39:10.:39:13.

on your love, shared dangers with you!

:39:14.:39:17.

I grew up on a staple of period drama on TV and film,

:39:18.:39:21.

as we all did, and there was never anyone of colour in any of them,

:39:22.:39:26.

But when I was researching Red Velvet, there were so much

:39:27.:39:33.

Now I look at it and I think of course there was,

:39:34.:39:38.

we were the centre of international trading.

:39:39.:39:40.

I found a huge diverse culture within London in my research,

:39:41.:39:43.

but I did history O-level, history A-level, and I never see it

:39:44.:39:46.

on TV and film and I think that's where the problem is because Ira

:39:47.:39:49.

was written out of history, for whatever reason.

:39:50.:39:52.

Actually we need to look back at history.

:39:53.:39:56.

So I think it's a wider discussion of how we portray

:39:57.:39:59.

Can we just talk a little bit about the Oscars.

:40:00.:40:03.

I think the issue about the Oscars is not so much about prizes in art,

:40:04.:40:10.

which are always prone to subjectivity and opinion

:40:11.:40:15.

and contention, and I think really it's about inclusion and equal

:40:16.:40:21.

opportunity at the grass-roots level, to be for consideration.

:40:22.:40:29.

I think that that's what this issue is really about.

:40:30.:40:37.

This debate, this very noisy debate right now,

:40:38.:40:39.

Because the desire of the Academy is to double the representation

:40:40.:40:44.

of women and ethnic minorities by 2020.

:40:45.:40:46.

If the Oscars are the pinnacle, allegedly, of film achievement -

:40:47.:40:55.

as you say, it's very subjective who gets a prize -

:40:56.:40:58.

but it has to reflect the whole of society that it's serving

:40:59.:41:04.

and that's what art and culture is about, about

:41:05.:41:06.

So, when it comes to the Oscars and Clint Eastwood is telling

:41:07.:41:10.

everyone to stop whining, what do you say to Clint Eastwood?

:41:11.:41:16.

Come see Red Velvet, it is on right now.

:41:17.:41:22.

You might want to make a film about it and hope that people jump

:41:23.:41:25.

We leave you in Guangzhou City in China, where they've been

:41:26.:41:36.

celebrating the Chinese Spring Festival in the traditional style

:41:37.:41:38.

Happy Chinese new year to them and to you.

:41:39.:41:41.

It is a fairly chilly wintry prospect for the next few days, a

:41:42.:42:31.

cold start of the day. A few showers around, particularly across southern

:42:32.:42:35.

and eastern areas initially. Many other

:42:36.:42:36.

With James O'Brien. EU president Jose Manuel Barroso on migrants, economics and Europe's squabbles. Plus US primaries, the state's power to snoop, London's high-rise craze and Kenneth Branagh's new play.


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