08/02/2016 Newsnight


The day's headlines with Evan Davis. The New Hampshire primary, the use of big bank notes in crime, Syria, and how Margaret Thatcher may have voted in the European referendum.

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That American election - it's time for Round 2.


Tonight, we're in New Hampshire, watching momentum gather for Bernie


I ask Hillary Clinton what she makes of it.


Can you just explain for us how you understand the momentum towards


Bernie, at the moment? Well, you know, I - let me start by saying, I


am really happy to see so many young people involved in the political


process. Back in the other big


contest of 2016 - Europe. The head of the international crime


fighters Europol tells us why If UK is no longer a member


of the EU, it wouldn't have the same access to that well regulated,


well developed capability. I think, therefore, it would make it


harder for Britain to fight The great debate on Europe -


how would Mrs Thatcher vote in the referendum, and is it


sensible to even speculate Two people close to her tell


us what they think. Yes, the state votes tomorrow in its


presidential election primary. You will be reminded over the next


48 hours that the state slogan is Live Free or Die,


and it is a state where the hopes of some of the trailing candidates


will surely be brutally murdered. But watch the results carefully,


because most new presidents - with the some recent exceptions -


have risen to that office after winning the New


Hampshire contest. Emily is in Manchester,


New Hampshire. Good evening from New Hampshire,


where voters are preparing to head for the polls in the first


primary of the US election. Over the past few weeks,


momentum has been gathering for Bernie Sanders, whose soaring


lead over Hillary Clinton brought out a sharp rebuke from


Bill Clinton this weekend. The Vermont senator believes


in new politics and has begun to attract young,


female voters in droves. America's answer to Jereym Corbyn


with a Brooklyn accent. Tonight, we ask if the momentum


is particular to this state or if the revolution of the left


speaks to a wider dissatisfaction with American politcs and the need


for long-term change. We start tonight in Sanders' home


state, neighbouring Vermont. There are different ways


of expressing your commitment to a candidate - the T-shirt,


the bumper sticker and then A permanent tattoo


of his head on your skin. Here in Bernie Sanders'


home state of Vermont, they are offering them free to any


supporter who wants one. Sure enough, his fans -


let's call them Sandernistas - It's Jenny's turn -


she's a psychology student I never voted in a presidential


election before. I think that even if he doesn't get


the nomination, I think that this is just the beginning


of something very, very large. "Bernie's got my back",


Danika tells me. She peels off the


platter to show me. You don't worry that


a tattoo is for life, No, I think actually -


to me, because he is such a brave person and, like, his message


and what he is doing is so iconic The boss has done more than 70


this past week. Have you had any really bizarre


requests? A middle finger, and just recently


someone wanted the It's a little darker


than our lightest roast. It's not just tattoos,


it's coffee too. The Capital Grounds Cafe


is marketing a new flavour they call They give away 20% of what they make


to Sanders' veterans. They come in and buy bags,


bags and bags every day. What is striking is the absence


a party machine behind all this. It's grass roots activism


as its most radical. Small businesses who hear Sanders


looking out for them Sanders is the man with


the momentum right now. His brand of socialism -


anti-Wall Street, pro-income equality and cannabis legalisation -


appeals to the young The same kind of crowd that voted


for Jeremy Corbyn back in September. With his shock of dishevelled hair


and specs, he is embraced - or cultivated - as the grumpy


Jewish Brooklyn boy out of Seinfeld. Indeed, its creator Larry David


frequently impersonates him. The skit on the satirical


Saturday Night Live show plays to the perception his voter base


is largely Caucasian. The population of New Hampshire,


where he has a massive lead, And that is something


Hillary Clinton wants This is her last Town Hall


appearance before New Hampshire A stage-managed affair that is meant


to seem folksy. For half an hour ahead of the event,


they have been trying to fill the camera shot behind her


with young Asian and black faces - a subliminal reminder of how much


wider her appeal base is. I'm still trying to work out


whether the questions are all planted when suddenly


she chooses me. Can you just explain for us how


you understand the momentum Let me start by saying I am really


happy to see so many young people I know Senator Sanders has a very


big base of young voters, and they are not supporting me,


and I just want any of you, and others that you know,


to know I am supporting you. Her husband, the former President,


wasn't quite so measured, taking aim at Sanders


and his supporters, and his Secretary of


State Madeleine Albright then chastised young women


for not choosing Hilary. Just remember, there is a special


place in hell for women These attacks tell you they


are spooked by Sanders, and although no-one will say


the words out loud, they worry he may be having the same effect


on the young and disaffected that In many states, if you declare


as an independent voter you can't vote for a Republican or Democrats


in the primary contest, but in New Hampshire


that is not the care. As an independent, you can go along


on the day and vote for which ever In other words, this particular


contest has that whole And it's estimated that as many


as 40% could be independents here. As with Obama, it's all


about whether Sanders can When you talk to Bernie


supporters here in Vermont, they say it's not a fad, a passing


phase, they like what he has done to the state here as Senator


Sanders, and they feel whether or not he wins


the nomination, the movement behind And don't forget New Hampshire


is Sanders's backyard. A large block of that progressive


white vote and people But from here, the race gets faster,


and much more racially diverse. Whether the people of South Carolina


will be so ready to feel the burn, well, that is where things start


to get interesting. Before we get to South Carolina,


there's the voting right here. Well, I'm joined now


by Nomiki Konst, a Democratic Party analyst and founder


of the anti-corruption group The Accountability Project,


who describes herself Also here in New Hampshire we have


Joe Klein, political columnist for Time magazine and long-time


observer of the Clinton family. Starting with you, you heard


Madeleine Allbright's line where she said there is a special circle of


hell reserved for women who don't work to help women. She was talking


to those Sanders' supporters who are female. I respect Madeleine all


bright. She's a crusader for women all around the world. I enjoy that


quote when it's used in different ways. I don't think that's the right


setting. Other Hillary supporters have said that has well. The problem


with the millennium femme nists is that they don't feel included in the


process. They feel that the institution of the Democratic Party


has been running candidates that are out of touch with their concerns and


their needs and they weren't there to fight for them in key moments,


because they were more concerned with winning, more concerned with


working with the other side. Working with the other side is very


important, but you have to have a back bone. So, from my perspective


as a Bernie supporters, I support him because he's attacking the root


cause of income inequality, the root cause of gender inequality. That's


Wall Street. They're campaigning against equal pay. When you see the


big guns coming out, Clinton, Allbright, Hillary Clinton doesn't


need those people... Is she a big gun? I thought what she said is


outrageous. She wouldn't say that about Marine Le Pen would she? She


was just saying it about Bernie and about Hillary. Feminism has been the


most successful political movement in my lifetime. We're going to see a


woman president before very long. Women are markedly


woman president before very long. I can tell you that. To even -


that's so 25 years ago what she said. Why are the women, I know the


tattoo parlour is not represented, but a lot of young women coming in


and they're all talking about Bernie Sanders, not Hillary Clinton, when


Shh... It should be -- should be "her moment". Millenniums are very


familiar with her. She's been part of their lives since they were born.


They are looking for a woman to rise up. It would be important for the


Democratic Party to take note. We need a bench of women, not just one


woman or three women. I agree on some points, are superior, but we


have a lot of work to do. Similar to LGBT issues. They've had a very


successful campaign. Women have been fighting for 25 years who aren't


ready to move over. I want to talk about the actual campaign. We're


hearing now from politicalo, that Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton are


not happy with the way it's going, there's going to be strategy


changes. That's never happened before (! ) Every single campaign.


What they're talking about is some dissatisfaction with their pollster.


They fired their pollster in the last election. They go through


pollsters the way through people go through underwear. This is a pretty


classic Clinton campaign. The problem, her big problem is this:


She was, when she was in her youth, she was the moral equivalent of a


Bernie Sanders supporter. She supported George McGovern. She


worked for him in Texas. I asked her what would you, how would you


convince the younger version of yourself to vote for you now? And it


isn't an easy answer. Her strengths is the fact that she works like a


dog. She knows an awful lot. She knows the world in a way that Bernie


doesn't. And those are tough things to get across to younger people. Is


this the beginning of a game changer? When we talk about


momentum, this is the kind of momentum that we saw for Obama in


2008, reaching voters that nobody had reached before. But the


difference is that Barack Obama was a moderate. Hillary was to his left


on health care, if you remember. In this case, we'll see what happens.


I've seen this happen once in my lifetime, that was George McGovern.


As a result the Democratic Party was ruined for 20 years. The difference


is there, just to make note, the country was a much more conservative


country in the 60s. Today the country is more progressive on


social issues. That's where the cue for the Democratic Party is. They


need to move further to the left, not start at the middle and


negotiate to the left. I think social issues are not what this


campaign will be about. The Republicans are moving to the left


on things like gay marriage, scurrying to the left. What we have


to be thinking about is how do you counteract a nativist,


anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim movement. Just over there, Donald


Trump's having a rally tonight and there are going to be thousands of


people there. Do you think that's where the Republican nomination is


going to end up? I don't know if he can win it. They have about a third


of their constituents in his corner. The rest of the party will have to


consolidate against that. I think that whoever gets the nomination is


going to move in that direction toward a kind of nativist,


anti-immigrant, no nothing, what the movement has historically been


called here -- know nothing. Do we think we will see Michael Bloomberg


enter the race? There's only one thing that he would do if he came


into this race, if it was Trump versus Bernie sort of race, he would


elect Donald Trump president. That would truly be tragic. I don't know


about that. Nothing is worse than having two billionaires in the race


talking about income inequality. Good point. Hey, I won one! In six


hours' time, the polls open here. There are tiny places, about 35


voters in all there, but they will be the first ones to go to the polls


and those results will probably be in by the time you wake up tomorrow


morning. David Cameron's reported pro-EU


referendum campaign is apparently going to focus on security -


or scaring the hell out of people Today, for example, he said EU


withdrawal could help terrorists by undermining European


security co-operation. Not that the campaign has started


yet, you understand. Now it so happens that the man


responsible for security cooperation He's a Brit called Rob Wainright,


and he's the director of Europol, But before we got on to that,


we discussed a more down-to-earth problem on his mind,


the small matter of big banknotes - The issue is: Who are


high-denomination notes for, except drug dealers,


money launderers, human traffickers and


organised criminals? Today, an eminent former banker


published a paper arguing These high-denomination banknotes


are no longer used very much They're used for a tiny


percentage of transactions. However, they are the preferred


means of payment for criminals, tax evaders, terrorists


and those who are giving No-one can say


they weren't warned. Whereas a million quid in 50 pound


notes has the bulk of say, A million quid in euros


will be smaller than one. Crime fighters like Europol's Rob


Wainright think it's an important issue - as he explained when I sat


down with him earlier. Why does anyone need a 500 euro


note, given that most of us have I would be surprised


if many of the viewers have seen one or done a business


transaction in one. To be fair, in some eurozone


countries like Germany, there is a different cultural


background and practise That doesn't explain why,


when we are moving to generally a cashless economy, the amount


of 500 euro notes that have been produced and circulated


is still increasing year on year, and accounts for one third


of the value of all euro You know, these are big issues


to be explained away. You must be a bit annoyed


about Luxembourg in particular, I think produced almost


twice its GDP in 500 euro That is an extraordinary bit of note


issue by Luxembourg. Our report showed that,


but across the eurozone as a whole, you know, we didn't really get


information that satisfied us as to what the legitimate use was,


while we are getting more and more evidence of the way


in which criminals are using it in particular, so I think serious


questions are being asked. A lot of evidence now,


and I hope the European Central Bank will take a long hard


look at this issue. It is interesting that we got


into this in the first place, though, because it was predicted


by some, it was talked about that this was going to be


something that would happen, you were creating something much


bigger than the 100 dollar bill, which might have been the currency


of choice until the euro came along, It is odd that the Europeans allowed


this to happen. What I am presenting is simply


the view from the police world, about how we see this as something


that is definitely facilitating criminal,


and to a certain extent activity. Terrorism, obviously,


a global phenomenon. In Europe there are National Police


forces and then Europol sits But you don't have the power


to arrest people, do you? No, instead we provide


an intelligence gateway that connects over 600 different agencies


exchanging intelligence That allows us to track better


what is increasingly Britain is in the early stage


of a debate about whether it should be in the European Union,


and one of the reasons many people don't want to be is they feel


there is a creeping pace So you are saying, if we stay in,


you do not think it will happen, that we will get a European police


force, that British voters will not be able to control


or have any sway over? No, we have just reformed Europol


and given it a new legal framework and it is not as a European FBI,


it is something that is very operational in nature,


in terms of giving them tools that the national authorities need


to fight fight crime and terrorism. You know, and the current


British Government has consciously opted into that new version


of European police force - European police cross-border


cooperation centre, because it has decided that is what it needs


in the face of an increased international threat


from terrorism and crime. David Cameron has warned that


Britain might lose information on what I think he called


"terrorists running round Europe". I think what the Prime Minister's


referring to, of course, is the extent to which over the last


three or four decades there has developed in Europe a sophisticated


architecture for sharing intelligence, and co-operating


in the fight against Europol alone, we are helping


to co-ordinate 40,000 cases I think if the UK is no


longer a member of the UK, it wouldn't have the same access


to that well-regulated, I think, therefore, it would make it


harder for Britain to fight I am sure Britain can respond


with alternative arrangements, but they will be more costly,


and they will not be as effective, I think that is probably


what the Prime Minister is saying. There has been some talk


about the Norwegian model of not The Norwegians, they are not


full members of Europol but they have an association


agreement with Europol that puts Well, certainly not in the middle,


at the periphery, because they are not full members,


so they don't have direct access to database in the way the UK


currently has, they are not leading any intelligence projects,


they don't have people So you know, it's a model


of membership, but as I said earlier, certainly not one


that is as effective as the one that the UK and other member


states currently enjoy. Are you going to be public about how


you will vote in the referendum? I think people listening


to you will probably draw their own conclusions


and believe they know how you will vote, but will you be


public, or will you stand back This is not about me,


this is about the future of Britain in Europe,


and in this particular part of it, about making sure


that we have the most secure platform to protect British


businesses, and citizens from ever more dangerous threats of terrorism


and other forms of serious crime. Of course I will be voting


for the UK to remain part of the EU because of what I see on an every


day basis about the benefits, and particularly in my world,


that the UK is getting from the EU. Rob Wainwright, thanks


for your company. You might have thought the Syrian


war had reached a kind of stalemate. Well, in the last few days,


things have changed. With Russian help, the Assad


government has made gains, and it is causing problems


for refugees, for Turkey, where they want to escape


to and possibly for Europe beyond. Our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban,


reports on the changing situation In fighting round Aleppo, Syria's


biggest city, President Assad's forces have been making progress.


Supported by hundreds of Russian air strikes, they have taken the


initiative just as diplomacy has stalled.


We saw during the last week, during the last several days they have


basically waited to the failure of the negotiation process, I can


assume within a certain time period, if the Russians managed to, well, to


put enough military pressure on this Saudi supported opposition, and if


they agree to launch a negotiation process, probably we will see the


intensity of fighting on the ground going down.


Since last autumn, the Syrian Army, with Russian air support has been


engaging in a multi-pronged offensive. By November, they had


broken through to an air base south-east of Aleppo, in January


they started making gains in a province and a couple of days ago,


cut the rebel corridor into Aleppo. All of this bombing and ground


fighting has led hundreds of thousands to leave their homes, some


estimates put it as high as three-quarters of a million people,


with anything up to ?100,000 thousand moving in the past week.


Week. Into an area south of Turkey. That all exacerbates tensions


between their Government and Russia. Since the Downing of Russian plane


by Turkey, because of its violation of the Turkish airspace last


October, the relationship between Ankara and Moscow has become


confrontational. So much so, it is now functioning as a dePacteau safe


zone against Turkey. That is limiting Turkey's ability to project


power across the border. As for how many people are trapped, between


advancing pro Assad forces on the Turkish border, it is certainly in


the tens of thousands. Turkey has stopped them coming in, caught


between this fresh humanitarian crisis, and apprenticeship to stop


refugees moving on to Europe. Chancellor Merkel visiting Turkey


today, vented her frustration with the Syrian Government, and its


Russian backers. TRANSLATION: We are now over the


last few days not only appalled by shocked by the human suffering is of


tens of thousands of people through bombing attack, and also bombing


attacks originating from the Russian side.


As to what people are fleeing, the UN panel today reported on gross


human rights abuses by all sides in the Syrian conflict. It accused the


Government of crimes against humanity and called for sanctions


against senior Syrian officials. The mass scale of deaths suggests that


the Government of Syria is responsible for acts that amount to


crimes against humanity. Turkey may well have to open its border to let


in the new wave of refugees, ideas of establishing a safe haven inside


Syria long favoured by the Turkish Government now seem to have been


forgotten. There is a very real risk that creating that type of buffer


zone could spark conflict between Turkey and Russia R We are dealing


with two political systems headed by the leaders who sometimes are led


not by the logic of the event, not by the pragmatism, but I would say


by the way, how they feel, by their passion.


There are some, in western foreign defence ministries who privately


hope Russia's backing of President Assad might finely brings the Civil


War to an end. So far it is up to the suffering without a clear


The Daily Mail writer Peter Oborne has just returned from Syria's


largest city - or once largest - Aleppo.


He's written vividly about the destruction


and destitution he found there, and he's with me now.


Thank you for coming in. We have some of the photos which we will


show awe you speak, but it is amazing you can get in and find a


hotel to stay in when you are there Yes, it is a difficult journey from


Damascus but they have re-opened the road in. They have lifted the siege


of Aleppo, you are able to get in, and there is a hotel called the pull


man hotel, freezing cold, very damp, I was the only guest there, apart


from a French TV journalist, and no hot water. There is electricity


about eight hours a day I reckoned. The internet doesn't work so you are


pretty isolated. The population of Aleppo is, it has plummeted. It is


less than half what it was. It is shocking. You get a sense of a city


where the population has gone, and particularly among the Christians,


down from about 200,000, before the crisis, wonderful ancient Christian


community going down. We are looking at some of the pictures there. The


rubble left. Empty streets. My regime minder took that. I wandered


round. The Christian population down from 200,000 to about 20,000. I


talked to the pastors, desperate to get their congregations to stay, and


the imams desperate to get them to stay but it is very hard. Who has


stayed? There are still hundreds of thousands of people in Aleppo, who


are they? Almost everybody seems to be a government employee, teachers,


lots and lots of refugees, from the east of the city, who fled news a or


the Free Syrian Army. They fled the rebels to get into the Government


part. Aleppo university, there are 20 great big dormitory block, 17 are


full of refugees, ten or 20 to a little room for two people, and I


wandered round there. So like Agatha Christie's hotel where she wrote her


novel, the Baron Hotel the refugee, they have harrowing stories. You


said no basic amenities in your hotel. What about important


amenities like drinking water? Yes, there is no water, running water


coming into Aleppo. It is the plant has been stopped by Isis, and so


what you see everywhere is digging wells, people carting water round,


and, it is a huge expense, because you have to buy it from the private


sector because state water has gone. You say the siege, it is not under


siege, because people think of Aleppo being under siege but it has


not. It has been reported widely. What has happened, this is the urn


thing point probably of the war s that the Turkish border, the supply


line to Isis, news racks, to the Jihadi groups and the FSA has been


blocked and it has been encircled by the Syrian army, plus with the great


help from the Russian, and so it is alnews a is under siege now, instead


of the other way round, and, Aleppo was under siege most of the winner,


nobody reported that, you couldn't get in or out from Damascus or


anywhere else. Now it is suddenly, the, the opposition forces who are


being besieged, that becomes a story, it tells you which side the


media has been on. You met an interesting journalist


when you were there, tell us his story. Yes a wonderful old boy. I


asked, "Where's the newspaper? I was told there's one paper left. There


had been 35. This old boy started out in 1960, 35 papers. I went into


his office, up some old smelly stairs. He said, his story was, it


was a daily paper, flourishing before the war. A weekly paper then,


paper shortages. The journalists started to get threatened. They go


on the net. There's no internet. Right and they told me they do it


through 3 G, that's beyond me. It's a mobile thing. You go there, you


see it with your own eyes, we've been hearing about it, in just a few


sentences, has it changed your view of anything, your way of looking at


the conflict at all? You meet these amazing stories of heroism, for


instance, I went to the Education Department. I met this teacher. She


spent five days making her journey which before the war had taken 40


minutes to get from east Aleppo and, to get her wages. She was going to


go back. Isis-held area. She said Syrian forces were advancing and


will shortly reach it. She said, "I will be held along with my husband


and children as a human shield." And she was going back. The heroism, I


felt, just the stoicism and bravery and you're always meeting - the


doctors were wonderful in the hospital. You meet these incredible


people. Thank you very much. Celebrity endorsement


is likely to play some part But what about the endorsements


from beyond the grave? A strange battle has opened up


on how Margaret Thatcher would vote It was prompted by a piece


in the Sunday Times from her former The debate maybe gives us more


insight into the opinions of those arguing about it, than of


the Iron Lady herself. Our political editor,


David Grossman, has been looking Trying to work out what Kier Hardy


would have made of Twitter or basha kan castle's view of the Qatar World


Cup seems like a dull parlour game. One deceased boll Titian's view of


-- politician's view of matters is now sought. If you want to own a bit


of Mrs Thatcher history you could worse than this place, her London


residence after she left Downing Street. On the market for something


like ?30 million. But her political legacy is priceless, worth far more


to the remain campaign and leave campaign, each side in the


referendum wants to claim that she would have voted their way. Writing


in the Sunday Times yesterday, her former advisor suggested she might


have raged more mightily during the negotiations than David Cameron, but


ultimately she would have gone along with what is on offer, indeed


negotiated something similar herself in. Reply, Lord young, who served in


Mrs Thatcher's Cabinet said, "If Margaret were with us today she may


not lead Brexit, she may cajole the campaign leaders to get their act


together and when the day came would vote out." So what's the truth? Who


better to adjudicate than the man she chose to write her story. As her


biographer, I always make sure never to say what Margaret Thatcher would


have done because I don't know. What I do know is what she did do. It's


interesting that people want to raise this question all the time. I


understand why. Because she went on a long journey about Europe, which


had many rocky places and pit falls. She learned a lot. She changed her


mind quite a lot. The starting point of that journey found form in


knitwear, campaigning here in 1975 for Britain to stay in what was then


the European economic community. It's very fitting that you should


keep an all-night vigil, under the statue of Sir Winston Churchill, the


first person to have the great vision of working together for peace


in Europe. But as the European project became more about political


union and pooled sovereignty, Margaret Thatcher famously resisted.


No, no, no. She came very much to dislike European methods of doing


business. She thought this is a male club. This is a load of men having


dinner to decide everything, the fate of the people. You don't know


what department she is. I tell you, you don't know what department she


is. Her lecture before the first course, caused some surprise... I


made mistakes and I learned to fight. And I win. She became opposed


to the single currency and advocated a wider and looser European Union,


incorporating the newly emancipated Eastern Bloc countries. She never


advocated leaving the European Community as it was then, the whole


time she was in office. She did advocate that after she left office,


only privately. She said it to me, for example, and to many others. She


was advised that at that stage of her career, it would be too


explosive and difficult and she was too old and not terribly well and


all that sort of thing, it was really too late. But this is what


she came to believe. That contrasts between how she felt in office and


how she felt after retiring is an interesting one. Why does this


matter in in the crowd to wave off Margaret Thatcher from central


office on her last visit as PM was a young David Cameron. He cheered her


enthusiastically then. But plenty of his party's activists and supporters


now still trust her instincts on Europe more than his. So summoning


up a Thatcher endorsement for his deal would be precious indeed.


With me now are Lord Powell, private secretary and advisor


on foreign affairs and defense to Margaret Thatcher from 1983-91,


and Annunziata Rees-Mogg, a Eurosceptic and Conservative Party


Good evening. Some have criticised you for Daning to say what she would


have thought when none of us really know. You have to admit, none of us


knows. Anyone bothered to read my article, the third sentence says,


"we can't possibly know" it's not as though I didn't realise that. A


Cabinet minister said to me, look, I can't go along with this. Margaret


Thatcher would never have agrowed to it. That made me sit down and think.


I'm in the a member of any campaign. I'm not for, against. I'm not a


political party member. I just thought about. It I thought about


her history in Europe. Much of it came out in your film. She was in


the Government that took us into Europe. She led the Conservative


Party campaign to stay in Europe at the last referendum. She could have


decided then we should come out. No, she was enthusiastic, in favour. For


12 years as Prime Minister she fought, by God how she fought, to


get advantages for Britain in Europe and change Europe in ways that


suited Britain. It's not really very surprising that one thinks that


maybe she would opt to stay in Europe and go on trying to change it


for the better. For the record, are you going to vote or support the


remain side in the campaign? I don't know. I will see what's on offer. I


had assumed you were really learning your opinion of the referendum.


No-one's interested in my opinion, but I thought they might be


interested in what might be Margaret Thatcher's. Do you buy what we've


just heard? I don't think we can know. I agrow


just heard? I don't think we can sentence, I don't think we should


invoke the dead, whether it's Churchill, Maggie Thatcher or other


wonderful politicians in this country or on the other side if you


want to invoke that Hitler wanted a united Europe. These are ridiculous


things that we just can't know. How should she have voted? Let's think


of Thatcherism as an ethos, not just what she thought, how should a


Thatcherite vote? In my view of Thatcher's legacy is to believe this


the sovereignty of our nation and the freedom of the individual. And


to believe incredibly strongly in democracy. In my view, you cannot


have democracy without a demos and Europe has no dome hose to back up a


democracy. We have to lock out for our own nation and have this


referendum where one man, one vote and see what the result S A couple


of comments, I think you're being a little severe. We frequently cite


19th century politician's views on foreign policy issues. We cite


Canning... We saw Mr Thatcher invoking... It's totally


permissible. I think quoting someone and speculating as to what they


would do in different situations are two very different things. In some


ways isn't it interesting, because if you see the EU as a free trade


thing, with a lot of what people, Thatcher's disposition would say is


annoying baggage, but free trade thing. Or you might see it as a lot


of annoying baggage with a bit of free trade. Is that the schism


between different this afternoonerites? I think it's --


Thatcherites. I think it's more pernicious. It's a lack of


democratic answerability. It's a superpower trying to control our


nation. It's removing our freedom to control our borders, ultimately it


will remove our controls on our own financial systems and the ever


closer union has not been removed from the treaties under this


renegotiation. It is there and that's the direction Europe will be


heading. I think Margaret Thatcher saw being in Europe largely as


strategic terms. Particularly at a time when we were threatened by the


Soviet Union. She believed in drawing together the European


countries. Of course in Nato for defence purposes, but in EU to be


sure we didn't go to war with each other again in the future and we


were a solid block. That was a sensible thing to add to the trade


aspect of. It she saw it as an organisation which produced specific


advantages for Britain. She would now, I believe, see that we have


managed to get out of so many of the unpleasant bits of Europe, the


things that you object to. You know, we are not in the single currency.


We are not in the Schengen union. We are only about half members any way.


Why such a great objection to being semidetached members. Can I ask a


quick question on the issue of, could there be a British


Parliamentary block on issues coming out of the EU. Boris Johnson seems


behind that. Does that work? I don't believe it can work, no. It's a


chalice that the faithful have sought for a long time. The fact is,


if we reach agreements, they are international agreements, they're


binding agreements, they're registered with the UN. Sadly, I


think in terms of law, then - You can't pick and choose. Parliament


remains supreme. They could denounce the treaty and we could exit. You


can't have bits of it. Thank you both very much.


James O'Brien is here tomorrow. Until then, very good night.


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.

The New Hampshire primary, the use of big bank notes in crime, Syria, and how Margaret Thatcher may have voted in the European referendum.

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