Browse content similar to 15/03/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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No-one's celebrating but it's five years today, | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
Countless misjudgements by all involved. | :00:09. | :00:21. | |
It was a strategic opportunity which was missed. It got missed and that | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
is a terrible mistake to make. We'll ask whether actually, | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
in this case earlier military intervention would have | :00:31. | :00:37. | |
made a difference? The grey blob showing | :00:38. | :00:39. | |
Islamic State's territory in Syria and Iraq has grown with frightening | :00:40. | :00:41. | |
speed in the last three years. Have they now peaked, | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
or just paused? We'll ask if the media is playing | :00:45. | :00:45. | |
fair on the Brexit debate, with Alastair Campbell | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
and the Sun's Trevor Kavanagh. And who is the mysterious Italian | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
author whose pen name is Elana She had shown me, not only | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
that she knew how to wound with words, but that she would kill | :01:00. | :01:09. | |
without hesitation. For anyone with a simple theory | :01:10. | :01:18. | |
as to who runs the world, the five years of Syrian civil war, | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
have been a challenge. Some think the US calls the shots, | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
a monopoly superpower. A few - probably insane - | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
people think the UN is some kind of all-powerful world government, | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
and others think everything comes down to great battle of the century, | :01:35. | :01:36. | |
between Islam and the rest All these accounts are belied | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
by the messy complexity of that painful civil war in one | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
medium-sized country. The sad fact is, no-one | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
has been in control. The different powers | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
of the world all agree it's bad, And when the big powers can't agree, | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
painful paralysis is the result. The neo-imperialists, | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
storming around using military force to impose its will on the world, | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
that's hardly a description Smarting from the disaster of Iraq, | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
it's shied away from so-called liberal intervention in most | :02:10. | :02:17. | |
of Syria - but it is a country where chemical weapons have been | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
used, and where millions have been displaced, | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
many on to our own shores. All in all, for us, it's been a five | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
year reminder that we don't always I have a very clear message for | :02:27. | :02:51. | |
president Assad, it is time for him to go. | :02:52. | :03:05. | |
We will double non-lethal support to the Syrian opposition in the coming | :03:06. | :03:13. | |
year. The deadline for us, if we start seeing a bunch of chemical | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
weapons being moved around. We have concluded that the Syrian | :03:17. | :03:31. | |
government has carried this out, and if so, there needs to be | :03:32. | :03:32. | |
international consequences. The ayes day only language understood by | :03:33. | :03:58. | |
killers like this, that is the language of force. -- the only | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
language. We must not and will not be confused | :04:03. | :04:24. | |
in our fight against Isil with support for Assad. | :04:25. | :04:32. | |
TRANSLATION: The task put before the Ministry of Defence and the Armed | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
Forces is largely complete. A look back there, at the evolving | :04:38. | :04:49. | |
Western narrative on Syria over The West has been clear | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
in what it wants: Assad out, a peaceful democracy | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
to flourish in his place. But in the absence of all that, | :04:58. | :04:59. | |
it's never been clear what the second or third | :05:00. | :05:01. | |
choice options are. Russia on the other hand has had | :05:02. | :05:03. | |
more strategic focus - and has never exhibited any | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
self-doubt: for example, the Russian Air Force's top | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
commander in Syria has said the force never missed the target | :05:13. | :05:14. | |
during its operation Let's talk to Lyce Doucet, the BBC's | :05:15. | :05:16. | |
Chief International Correspondent In the history of this war, we have | :05:17. | :05:33. | |
had this momentous development, Russia has said it is pulling out. | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
What has been the reaction in Damascus? It is not completely | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
pulling out, it will maintain a significant military presence, this | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
is part of a bigger strategic goal for President Putin and so | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
significant is the Russian role in Syria, you're getting reaction from | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
government-controlled areas like Damascus and also from rebel held | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
areas. In Damascus government supporters have said how relieved | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
they were that Russia finally got involved in a much more significant | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
way militarily and politically in Syria, Russia's involvement brought | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
President Assad's forces back from the brink, they were close to | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
collapse on some key front lines, and his supporters are now | :06:21. | :06:22. | |
wondering, what if it goes wrong again? Will Russia support them? | :06:23. | :06:30. | |
Russia has made clear that it will, but if the military objectives have | :06:31. | :06:32. | |
been achieved, what is the political plan? Will this include President | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
Assad and will this bring Syria closer to peace and what will be | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
their own future? In rebel held areas, you also hear a welcome | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
regarding Russia pulling out its forces, but we have heard from | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
opposition spokespeople, saying, is Russia going to lose its leverage | :06:52. | :06:59. | |
with President Assad? There is a broad welcome, but many questions, | :07:00. | :07:00. | |
as well. Thanks for joining us. One person who has been close | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
to the centre of the international She was a one time development | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
secretary for Tony Blair, but went on to become UN emergency | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
relief co-ordinator for most I spoke to her yesterday, | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
about some of the mistakes that In 2014 she called the impact | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
of the Syrian war a stain And I think that we really have | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
to think about how in the last five years we allowed Syria to slide | :07:30. | :07:43. | |
into this situation. And the impact that it has | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
had on ordinary Syrians Is there any point in the last five | :07:47. | :07:48. | |
years, do you think, where the West could have made | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
a different decision, that would have made | :07:56. | :07:57. | |
a really material difference I think there have been various | :07:58. | :07:59. | |
points at which considerably more pressure could have been put | :08:00. | :08:10. | |
on Syria, if, for example, the permanent members | :08:11. | :08:21. | |
of the Security Council had shared the same analysis of | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
what was happening in Syria. 2012, Russia appeared to have a view | :08:26. | :08:45. | |
that Assad should move aside. And the West didn't buy | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
in to that Russian plan then. Looking back doors that not look | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
like the most tragic error of this entire conflict on | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
the part of the West? Well, I have always thought that | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
a strategy whose starting point was "Assad must go" was a strategy | :08:59. | :09:08. | |
which would be incredibly Because if you are starting | :09:09. | :09:10. | |
negotiating position is one that sees absolutely no room | :09:11. | :09:30. | |
for movement, then it is hard to see how you're going to negotiate your | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
way out of that. And I think the result of that has | :09:34. | :09:35. | |
been that countries have had to almost backtrack | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
to where we ended up at the end of last year and this year, | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
where the there is some wriggle room being looked for in terms of saying | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
well, we need to start a negotiation, there has to be | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
a transition and yes, of course our ultimate goal is that | :09:48. | :10:06. | |
aside must go. But the Russians said, | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
Assad will go. It was a strategic opportunity | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
which was missed. And it got missed because countries | :10:16. | :10:23. | |
just got locked into these And that is a terrible | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
mistake to make when you're to negotiate your way | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
through the kind of complexity Now there may have been a feeling, | :10:32. | :10:33. | |
and I think that there was from some, that this | :10:34. | :10:41. | |
was not a genuine offer. 2013 of course was a point | :10:42. | :10:43. | |
at which there were, there was a big decision to be made | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
about military intervention and whether the West should take | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
a military role. And the UK Parliament voted not | :10:51. | :10:52. | |
to do that. Do you think, looking back, | :10:53. | :10:54. | |
that was a mistake, or not? It is hard to say that it was | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
a mistake because I think that if you look at the situation | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
in Syria at the time, and if you just think | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
about historically, the military interventions that have been made | :11:04. | :11:05. | |
and the impact that they have had on the region, you cannot exactly | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
say that we have covered herself No, my thought actually is we have | :11:09. | :11:10. | |
had several that have been disastrous and then say OK, | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
we had better not have this one. And this one might just have been | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
the one where you would actually say So my approach has always been | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
in relation to military action, that it has to be, or it can be, | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
if you're going down that road, There has never been a sense | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
in which we can say that strategically, looking | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
at the political elements, looking at the broader potential | :11:36. | :11:36. | |
for military action, looking at the longer term | :11:37. | :11:38. | |
development of Syria. This has had a huge | :11:39. | :11:40. | |
impact on the country. Looking at the humanitarian | :11:41. | :11:42. | |
consequences, looking at how So just focusing on one | :11:43. | :11:44. | |
element of it, in my view Joining me now in the studio | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
is Paddy Ashdown, former Lib Dem leader who was International High | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
Representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina, and | :11:52. | :11:53. | |
Labour's Mary Creagh, who voted against military | :11:54. | :11:55. | |
intervention in Syria in 2013. Down the line from Florida we're | :11:56. | :11:57. | |
joined by Paul Wolfowitz who was the US Deputy Secretary | :11:58. | :11:59. | |
of Defence under President George W. Bush, and in Geneva as part | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
of the women's advisory board for the Syrian peace | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
talks is Reem Turkmani. Mary, you had a vote in the British | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
Parliament and you voted against. That is the vote I regret the most | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
in my 11 years as a Labour MP, it was a failure of David Cameron and | :12:14. | :12:15. | |
Nick Clegg to convince enough of their MPs to back them and also a | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
failure of the Labour Party and it was a grave misjudgement and the | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
Syrian people have paid the consequences, because we essentially | :12:22. | :12:23. | |
told a dictator that he had impunity to murder his own people with barrel | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
bombs and chemical weapons, through siege and starvation. Do many of | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
your colleagues feel that way? There is a number of us who change their | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
mind and voted in favour of air strikes in December, because we | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
realise that the Syrian people had paid for that decision with their | :12:42. | :12:48. | |
lives in many cases. Reem, what you feel when you hear that? From Mary. | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
First let me start by saying that I'm speaking in my personal | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
capacity, not as a member of the advisory board. The debate about | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
military intervention in 2013 was within the context of a political | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
plan which does not aim to change the regime or ends the regime, the | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
Americans stated it Jerry Kelly, they were there to hurt the regime, | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
but not to overthrow the regime -- stated it very clearly. In 2015, the | :13:25. | :13:33. | |
debate which was just refer to, that was about something completely | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
different, it was against Isis and not against the regime, and the | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
British American warplanes are in Syria and they don't even attempt to | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
fire at any territories that are held by the regime. They are clearly | :13:48. | :13:55. | |
not messing up with any land that had a Russian flags on it. Just | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
Syrian flags. We have to be clear about that. In two sentences, can | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
you say why intervention would have been worse and would have done more | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
damage than good? No intervention would have settled | :14:12. | :14:22. | |
the war and led to a victory for either side. We needed international | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
consensus on the solution. This is the only thing that changes | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
dynamics. It is the American, Russian process, when they sat in on | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
a meeting about a ceasefire, there was a ceasefire. That is what we | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
needed and the opportunity that we missed in 2012. Paul, take us | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
through whether you think intervention should have been | :14:50. | :14:57. | |
carried out, and when? We talk a lot about the past and no question | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
people make a lot of policy based on what happened in 2003. If we are | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
looking for some local examples of how things do and do not work it is | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
useful to go back 25 years to 1991 when we had the ceasefire after the | :15:13. | :15:21. | |
first Gulf War. There were uprising in northern and southern Iraq. The | :15:22. | :15:28. | |
Shia were abandoned with terrible consequences and were also living | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
with the consequences today. The Kurds were rescued belatedly and | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
created what is probably the most viable part of Iraq today. I think | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
what we're seeing in the Russian intervention is if you limit your | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
object gives and it seems the Russians are trying to do that, you | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
can accomplish a lot more. I think whatever is done, I agree with the | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
earlier speaker, needs to any strategic context. I think that has | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
to recognise that there are a group of Syrians who may not like Assad | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
but feel more endangered by the triumph of the Sunni Muslim | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
majority. And then the Sunni Muslim majority feel oppressed by Assad. | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
Talking about Assad must go, that is not a strategic description of where | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
we need to end up. And focusing exclusively on Isis is not strategic | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
either. When you look at the interventions going back to the | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
first Iraq War, the Bosnian war, because of an adventure, the second | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
Iraq War, all the interventions, what do you think the success rate | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
is, that's got to Libya, what is the success rate in your assessment? We | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
could go all the way back to the Korean War 60 years ago which of the | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
time was seen as a disaster and cost 40,000 American lives. The country | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
was in horrible shape afterwards and 60 years later it is a modern | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
miracle. What sport would you give it, you think we get it right half | :17:03. | :17:10. | |
the time, 90%, 20%? I've not tried to do a box score on that and I'm | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
not sure that is useful as a way to think about that. There are things | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
that we have done right, things we have done wrong and that is how to | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
think about it. Lord Ashdown, there are plenty of successful and | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
unsuccessful ones, what would characterise them? The successful | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
ones are the ones you recognise that military action has been taken to | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
achieve a political end. War is the continuation of diplomacy by other | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
means as has been said. We have forgotten the diplomacy and | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
strategy. Putin does nothing unless it has political effect. He | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
intervened in Syria with the aim of supporting his man in theory, asset, | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
and playing himself back into the Middle East and international | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
affairs. He is leaving Syria to send a message to asset, that is why he's | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
going, which is you relied on the to survive you had better do what I say | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
now or we will not come back to help you. That gives him the bridge in | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
the peace talks. What Putin does and where he wins every time, he makes | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
sure the action he takes has a political effect. We believe, we see | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
a problem in the world and we want to vomit. We remember the war but we | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
forget the diplomacy. And that is where Putin wins and where we lose. | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
Talking about about the diplomacy. Mary Craig do you feel that Western | :18:37. | :18:44. | |
policy has been too inflexible? We have had red lines, we turned down | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
early deals with the Russians. That vote in 2013 created a chain | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
reaction, we created two spaces, a political space into which the male | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
Putin moved because he became the person that then oversaw the | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
dismantling of the Assad chemical weapons and it created a | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
geographical, ungoverned space in the east of Syria allowing Isis to | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
move in and destabilise Benteke, northern Iraq. So there were two | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
spaces created by that. When we talk about these abstract concepts of | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
strategy, you must not forget the human cost paid. Europe is not | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
focused on the refugee crisis, we have been distracted by a war in | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
Ukraine, this country has been distracted by a referendum on the | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
EU. And on our borders, 4000 people have drowned trying to reach Europe | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
in boats. Because our countries together cannot work out safe, legal | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
and compassionate routes for them to flee. Let us not misunderstand the | :19:47. | :19:55. | |
2000 test 2013 vote, it was not about military intervention at about | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
upholding international law. We had the chance to build a coalition and | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
did not take it. Because of that Putin had a political strategy for | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
military action, we never had. Do you agree that the biggest single | :20:13. | :20:19. | |
mistake has been the West and their red lines which made a deal with | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
Putin almost impossible? They raised the bar too high, they locked | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
themselves in the position of regime change only a few months after the | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
beginning of the revolution. When Syria, I'm in the Russians were | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
already in Syria. They equip the Syrian army, help to build it. So to | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
go to a country with a strong Russian presence and say you want | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
regime change when the Russians made it clear after Libya that they would | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
not allow such an agenda to take place any more, that was an obvious | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
mistake. And in 2012 when the opportunity came in and the Russian | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
said OK, we agree that he leaves, that Assad leaves at the end of his | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
term in 2014, when they renew presidential elections coming, so | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
you just should accept that he stayed until 2014. Both the Syrian | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
opposition and the West rejected that and look at where we are now. | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
2016 and he is still in power. And still a lot of people dying. Paul, | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
you are a guy everyone thinks is the person who believes in shock and all | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
and just wants to bomb when you see a problem. What you now think about | :21:37. | :21:44. | |
the diplomacy of the West, do not think the biggest mistake in Syria | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
was the failure of the West to come to a deal with the Russians that | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
might have allowed Assad to stay for a couple of years or a year or two. | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
I do not know what the evidence is that suggests the Russians would | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
have agreed on something that would have brought an end to the war. I do | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
think the burden of proof is on anyone who says we could not have | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
done anything to relieve the humanitarian disaster. Creating safe | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
zones along the Jordanian and Turkish border for example. If we | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
had an overall strategy that might have included -- included negotiated | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
with the Russians, that would have fitted into it. One problem is we | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
step into negotiation with basically no alternative to negotiating. But | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
the Russians, it is the other arm of a more active diplomacy, even a | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
military diplomacy. They just demonstrated that recently, there | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
are now in a strong position if they want to negotiate and we are not. | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
The point for Mrs is the Russians have a bigger dog in this fight. We | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
are coping with jihadis returning from the battlefield. Chechnya is | :22:56. | :23:02. | |
the battlefield, so it was in their interests. We lost an opportunity. | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
One of the biggest surprises of the five year conflict | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
was the sudden rise of Isis, Isil, so-called Islamic State, | :23:12. | :23:13. | |
It has variously looked unassailable, and yet also | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
Richard Watson has pulled together some of the evidence. | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
Some new information looking at the map as to their territory, there to | :23:24. | :23:31. | |
rain. We have worked with data analysis company and working on a | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
map of Syria and Iraq looking at territory. We can see that now. If | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
you look at that area, that is the position on January year ago. Quite | :23:43. | :23:52. | |
extensive territory held by Islamic then. We asked scientists | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
recalculate the tighter to the 14th of March, just this weekend. That is | :23:58. | :24:04. | |
the new position, they lost quite a lot of territory. 22% of their | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
territory in about 14 months. So it looks as if there are on the back | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
foot. They made some limited gains however put up but those gains are | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
in the colour red. Around the ancient site of bomb era. Far | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
outweighed by losses elsewhere many Kurdish areas. What about the | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
foreign fighters, the attractiveness of Isis? It has been significant, | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
the foreign fighters, one of the most obvious reasons is that the | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
Kurds control the Syrian Turkish border area and so it is harder to | :24:42. | :24:48. | |
get in foreign fighters to the territory. And if you have a | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
shrinking caliphate, you are no longer a winning team and so the | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
attraction is lower than it was 18 months ago. Do we know much about | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
the number of British fighters going out there, before Christmas last | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
year it is all we were talking about. I spoke to security sources | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
and they see that the flow of British jihadists peaked about 18 | :25:13. | :25:14. | |
months ago. They told me something interesting, that the rate of flow | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
has now slowed down. It has not stopped, people are still going out | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
there, total numbers are interesting. British fighters out | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
there, 800 so have gone out. Around 100 have been killed in Syria, and | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
about 350 are back in the UK. Thank you very much. | :25:35. | :25:35. | |
In this country, we have a famously robust and campaigning press - | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
But when it comes to the EU referendum, does the desire by some | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
newspapers to campaign, get in the way of public understanding? | :25:44. | :25:54. | |
Alistair Campbell, formerly Tony Blair's communications chief | :25:55. | :25:56. | |
has written an excoriating criticism of the press's behaviour | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
Spinnaker --. Has coverage of Brexit been unfair? Two claims about the | :26:02. | :26:28. | |
monarchy, has coverage moved to report urged to political interests? | :26:29. | :26:47. | |
Do you think it is the job of newspaper to present information | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
about the EU and its workings in such a way as will help readers make | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
up their minds? Absolutely. Why not do it! We do! Give us an example of | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
some things you think they have done which does not help the reader make | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
up their minds. They present only one side of the story. For example a | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
series economic figure like Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
England, goes to a committee of MPs and at last question is, says what | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
he thinks. The Archbishop of Canterbury makes the football | :27:22. | :27:23. | |
statement, both of those occasions, most of the papers -- thoughtful | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
statement. The right-wing papers, the Sun, the Times, express, the | :27:29. | :27:38. | |
star, and the Daily Mail probably is the worst. What they do they spin | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
the whole thing in one direction. Mark Carney is part of project fear. | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
The Archbishop of Canterbury is saying because he did say he is not | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
-- it is not racist to worry about immigration, they presented that as | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
he was somehow whacking the case. And they tell lies, write stories | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
that totally untrue. Let me ask you, as the European Union banned | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
hairdressers from wearing high heels? As the European Union... Have | :28:09. | :28:15. | |
we said that? You said they were going to. Has the European Union | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
force does to call Christmas a winter festival to mark? The Sun has | :28:21. | :28:32. | |
been running this kind of story for decades. The thing about Alistair, | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
he forgets that we had known each other a long time. He probably | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
forgets a conversation we had, which I noted in my diary at the time, he | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
has told me that in his view he has never been a journalist but a | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
propagandist. At least I admit it. Let him finish. I also suspect he is | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
a Eurosceptic. He's peddling the line because he is a propagandist. | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
We believe in what we're saying. We always have had the same stance, we | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
are newspaper and entitled to have a view, and editorial view the top we | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
always stood out against the European constitution, the single | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
currency, and against mass uncontrolled immigration. That is | :29:17. | :29:24. | |
the position from which... Two minutes ago you said your job was to | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
give people information on which to base a decision. We have carried | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
many opinion paces by people for the European Union. -- opinion pieces. | :29:32. | :29:39. | |
They do carry pieces on both sides of the argument. They do not present | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
two sides to an argument. We do. You do not. Let me just say, I admit I | :29:44. | :29:54. | |
have a bias. I admit it. I admit it. What I do not do, and never did as a | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
journalist, is to make up stories and I believe that your paper, the | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
Daily Mail and the other papers, express for example. That is a bit | :30:07. | :30:15. | |
rich, actually. That you never made up stories. Trevor has had less say | :30:16. | :30:27. | |
so I will let him speak. He has not said anything. Repeat your point | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
about his critique. We believe that the European Union | :30:34. | :30:45. | |
lacks a democratic accountability. Are you giving your readers the | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
information to make a decision? We are telling them that Brexit was a | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
catastrophic failure, which is supported. Brexit? The European | :30:54. | :31:00. | |
signal currency, it was a dismal failure, you supported it from the | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
very beginning, you propagandised... When you work in government, did you | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
selectively pick evidence in order to promote the case? Yes, you did. | :31:12. | :31:19. | |
With government policy we would have a position and we would promote it. | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
To be fair to Trevor, not Trevor, but papers like the Daily Mail, they | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
were very careful not to call us liars, but I'm making the point, I | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
gave you a few trivial examples. The sun newspaper has reported in the | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
past that because of Europe we are going to get rid of Christmas. You | :31:41. | :31:49. | |
have said that, Trevor. Oh come on. We are talking about big issues, and | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
my issue is that you are not giving the public fair, balanced coverage | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
about these issues. Were you as critical when the papers were on | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
your side of the argument? Probably not. When they were making fun of | :32:03. | :32:10. | |
William Hague. The Scottish independence referendum. What they | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
should not do is make up stories. Their media view another example. | :32:17. | :32:23. | |
Brexit and the Queen. -- let media view another example. He is on the | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
board of it so which is investigating it. Your editor, Tony | :32:29. | :32:37. | |
Gallagher, he said they did audience research of what the audience | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
believed and that guided them in terms of how they are covering the | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
vote, this is the most interesting thing. Almost as though you think | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
the readers are telling you what to write. For the last 35 years, I | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
became political editor in 1983, from that moment and before, we have | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
had a sceptical view and a very strong sceptical view and we have | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
been proven right on every single count, and the constitution and the | :33:05. | :33:12. | |
euro and the control of the borders and uncontrolled immigration, and | :33:13. | :33:14. | |
frankly we are the ones who have been proven right, and the | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
propagandist in the hands of Alistair Campbell here, | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
self-professed publicist like Alistair Campbell, he is singing a | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
tune because he works for a PR company. Trevor, if I may say so, I | :33:28. | :33:35. | |
believe... You are accusing me of all sorts. I have no vested interest | :33:36. | :33:44. | |
in this apart from my own personal opinion. You talk about fair and | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
balanced opinion, how much coverage did you give to the IMF, | :33:49. | :33:55. | |
Rolls-Royce, Morgan Stanley, Vauxhall, Centrica, Nato, they'll | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
say stay in Europe, but some bloke from the bridges, -- bridges, -- | :34:00. | :34:14. | |
British Chambers of commerce? We did give some focus on Vauxhall. You | :34:15. | :34:28. | |
have not made up your mind on how the Sun is going to vote. You have | :34:29. | :34:36. | |
raised your eyes at that. We cannot give our verdict until we have | :34:37. | :34:43. | |
weighed up the evidence. LAUGHTER You are being ironic? In the sense | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
that firstly there is no argument, I think. Europe is a busted flush. And | :34:50. | :34:57. | |
because you think that, your readers should not be given both sides of | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
the story. Who is going to make the decision for the Sun? Rupert | :35:02. | :35:10. | |
Murdoch. You say you are going to put other people... You are boring, | :35:11. | :35:12. | |
I'm sorry. Thanks for joining us. "If the book is worth something, | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
it should be enough", is her philosophy - | :35:17. | :35:18. | |
which is why nobody - except her publisher | :35:19. | :35:20. | |
and a very select few - know the true identity | :35:21. | :35:22. | |
of Elena Ferrante. The Italian author of nine novels, | :35:23. | :35:24. | |
it's her so-called Neapolitan novels that have made her the talk | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
of many a household - the last of which, | :35:28. | :35:29. | |
The Story Of The Lost Child, was recently longlisted | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
for the Man Booker International An Italian professor has come up | :35:33. | :35:34. | |
with the latest theory on who the real Elena Ferrante | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
is but the mystery goes on. In the absence of an interview | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
with the author, Katie Razzall went to the woman who's become the face | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
of the Ferrante novels in the English-speaking world - | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
translator, Ann Goldstein - to find out what all | :35:50. | :35:51. | |
the fuss is about. My friendship with Leila began | :35:52. | :35:59. | |
the day we decided to go upstairs, step after step, flight | :36:00. | :36:01. | |
after flight, to the door Unmasking Elena Ferrante has become | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
an Italian parlour game. This, in some secret place | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
in myself, I still thought. She had shown me not only | :36:13. | :36:23. | |
that she knew how to wound with words, but that she would kill | :36:24. | :36:25. | |
without hesitation. Ferrante's Neapolitan quartet | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
catapulted the Italian novelist The story of a friendship | :36:29. | :36:29. | |
between two women growing up in poverty in Naples in | :36:30. | :36:37. | |
the second half of the 20th century. But with the author doing only | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
the odd interview by e-mail, her translator often | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
speaks in her place. Her novels are about | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
a place and time that you might not be | :36:50. | :36:51. | |
specifically familiar with. The relationships she describes | :36:52. | :36:53. | |
and the struggles, especially of women, | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
that she describes, are very compelling and universal, | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
I should say. She talks herself about | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
how she wants to get at the truth of emotions | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
and she says somewhere that anonymity helps her to get | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
to the truth of an emotion. I heard of some man | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
who said after reading it, he said he understood his family, | :37:16. | :37:17. | |
meaning, I guess, the women But the identity of the author | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
of books also has readers It has become an Italian | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
detective story. The BBC drama had Rufus Sewell | :37:27. | :37:39. | |
in the title role of Zen, but when it comes to Elena Ferrante, | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
Italy has this man, a professor and writer, seen with a journalist | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
from the Italian newspaper that carried | :37:46. | :37:47. | |
his big reveal, from a detailed study of references in one | :37:48. | :37:49. | |
of the novels, the name in the frame is Marcella Marmo, a professor | :37:50. | :38:01. | |
at Naples university who studied at the same prestigious school | :38:02. | :38:03. | |
as Elena Ferrante's narrator. I did not think it was necessarily | :38:04. | :38:05. | |
right, but I have no idea. Yes, she did, but that | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
is what they all say, The likes of the Bronte sisters | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
knew about anonymity, but that is when women | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
were not supposed More recently Joe Klein | :38:19. | :38:20. | |
tried but failed to hide his identity | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
as the author of Primary Colours, and even JK Rowling was outed | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
when she tried to move secretly When it comes to Ferrante, | :38:29. | :38:30. | |
even the woman who has translated all her work does not get | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
to communicate directly. When I have questions, | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
I write to the editors and they write to her, | :38:41. | :38:50. | |
if I can't answer the question, and then she writes to them | :38:51. | :38:52. | |
and they write to me. I have a very close relationship | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
with the person that writes the books but I don't | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
need to know who she is, and I don't | :39:03. | :39:04. | |
want to know who she is. I feel a nostalgia | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
for our childhood. She may not want to know, | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
but can Ann Goldstein offer any I get the sense that she is very | :39:11. | :39:17. | |
well read and educated, a woman in her mid-60s who is very | :39:18. | :39:27. | |
intelligent and has had The Brexit debate may have | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
suppressed some of the Chancellor's Our policy editor | :39:31. | :39:51. | |
Chris Cook is with me. This is about schools. A few things | :39:52. | :40:07. | |
which will be in the budget, there is about 1,000,000,000 and a half | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
pounds, which is not much, but a year of the cuts going into schools | :40:12. | :40:13. | |
this Parliament. Some of the money will be a mark to encourage schools | :40:14. | :40:21. | |
to stay open the beyond 330, and the other thing, the really big thing, | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
the Prime Minister would like all schools to be academies by 2022. If | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
they are not in 2020 already academies, they need to have a plan | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
in place so they are there by the middle of next Parliament and that | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
is potentially an absolutely enormous change. No local government | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
schools in England. Basically. The local authority schools are those | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
which are funded through the local authority and the government gives | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
them money and they give the money to the local authority and they do | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
not run local authority schools, they supervise them and they give | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
them support. Academies are run directly and supervised by central | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
government, given money by central government, and the people that run | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
them are third-party charities. Rather than having your school | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
answerable to your local councillor, it is answerable to a charity and | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
then to the Secretary of State for Education. How much difference is | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
this going to make two schools in England? There's no evidence to | :41:26. | :41:32. | |
suggest this will standards. -- this will improve standards. It is an | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
evidence -based light area and we know that early academies, they did | :41:38. | :41:45. | |
work, but we are talking about turning around schools and schools | :41:46. | :41:53. | |
which fostered think are fine, and we have no idea if this is going to | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
work -- which Ofsted things are fine. Every school is facing a | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
change to the funding for Miller, some will face stringent cuts, and | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
there are cuts coming down the line -- funding formula. Chris, thanks | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
for joining us. We leave you with news that the last | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
remaining script hand written by William Shakespeare is to be put | :42:16. | :42:22. | |
online by the British Library. And topically, it's a speech | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
about refugees delivered But we all know Shakespeare | :42:26. | :42:26. | |
should be heard, not read, and so we leave you with | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
Dame Harriet Walter. You'll put down strangers, | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
Kill them, cut their throats, possess their houses, | :42:36. | :42:43. | |
And lead the majesty of law in line, Say now the king (As he is clement, | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
if th' offender mourn) Should so much come to short | :42:47. | :42:55. | |
of your great trespass As but to banish you, | :42:56. | :42:57. | |
whether would you go? What country, by the | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
nature of your error, Go you to France or Flanders, | :43:01. | :43:03. | |
To any German province, to Spain or Portugal, Nay, | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
any where that not adheres to England - Why, you must | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
needs be strangers. Would you be pleased to find | :43:12. | :43:18. | |
a nation of such barbarous temper, That, breaking out | :43:19. | :43:21. | |
in hideous violence, Would not afford you | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
an abode on earth, Whet their detested knives | :43:25. | :43:26. | |
against your throats, Spurn you like dogs, | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
and like as if that God Owed not nor made not you, | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
nor that the claimants Were not all appropriate | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
to your comforts, But chartered unto them, | :43:38. | :43:39. | |
what would you think This is the strangers' case; | :43:40. | :43:41. | |
And this your mountanish inhumanity. There might be a few spots of rain | :43:42. | :44:09. | |
and drizzle in parts of England and Wales tonight and tomorrow | :44:10. | :44:10. |