Browse content similar to 23/03/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Brussels is a city of security today. The search for remaining | :00:10. | :00:21. | |
perpetrators. And sadness. We are here at the Place de la Bourse, with | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
Brussels trying to recover. Will ask if it is fair to blame Belgium for | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
security failure is given the number of other cities that have ensured | :00:30. | :00:31. | |
this kind of terror. Will Brexit make us | :00:32. | :00:33. | |
safer from terror - We'll ask the Defence | :00:34. | :00:35. | |
Secretary Michael Fallon, Europhile Lord Falconer | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
and sceptic Daniel Hannan. And France's most renowned living | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
philosopher Bernard Henri Levi. It is continental, a continental | :00:42. | :00:53. | |
state of emergency. Europe is now living in a state of emergency. Not | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
only France. It is not only war, it is general war. | :00:59. | :01:05. | |
A day in which the saddest stories begin to emerge, | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
as we start putting names, faces, personalities to the numbers we have | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
been reporting - the fatalities of yesterday's attacks. | :01:15. | :01:22. | |
Alongside that, of course the hunt for the guilty goes on, | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
and the attempt to clarify who was involved. | :01:26. | :01:27. | |
There's been some confusion but we know the names of two suicide | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
brothers, - yes, another pair of terrorist siblings, | :01:31. | :01:31. | |
In this case, one who killed himself at the airport, | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
the other on the metro. | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
Meanwhile Belgium has been in mourning today, the first | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
Brussels is not back to normal, it lacks a lot of its bustle, | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
but it does at least have buses again, and much of the metro | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
is working too, so it is getting back to business. | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
The city is itself a target of course - | :01:56. | :01:57. | |
the city way of life makes us vulnerable to attack, | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
Brussels, one day on. And here of normality. Like other cities, that | :02:01. | :02:18. | |
have been attacked, it is all about living here, crowding on to buses | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
and into underground spaces from which it is hard to escape. | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
Wonderful if everyone respects the rules, awful when they do not. So in | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
Brussels today, extra security was one of the extra hassles of urban | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
life. Queues to get into the main station, the Gare Midi, to make room | :02:37. | :02:46. | |
for bag searches and quick checks. I guess there is nothing else we can | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
do so we have to accept it and be patient. A heavy police and military | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
presence, to. Reassuring but also a reminder of what there is to fear. | :02:56. | :03:02. | |
Hassell, for sure, the danger of crowds, probably, but cities have an | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
irrepressible ability to recover, and Brussels is no exception. It is | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
all about safety in numbers. There are just too many individuals who | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
simply have something they need to do and they force life back into the | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
public domain. One other feature of Brussels today, collective mourning. | :03:21. | :03:28. | |
The silence at midday, the Place de la Bourse designated by people power | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
alone as a physical symbol for collective expression. Can a city | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
have feelings? I always grown at myself when I find myself asking the | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
question, what is the mood in Brussels? But it can be, located. | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
There is a mood in Brussels. -- it can be confiscated. I am very | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
emotional because I born here. I think it is awful that our democracy | :03:56. | :04:03. | |
is hurt in that way. Of course, there are questions being asked | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
today. Is it something innate about cities, or this city, that makes | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
murderous? Districts like Mullen Beek get overlooked, people go off | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
the rails and get caught up in the insane and anti-social. Life passes | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
them by. -- districts like Molenbeek. The challenge is to ease | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
some of those problems while preserving what is good about | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
Brussels and dense, urban life. On that theme of cities, you will hear | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
more about that in the interview with Emily and Bernard Henri Levi | :04:39. | :04:50. | |
later. I am here at the Place de la Bourse, and the mood is slightly | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
hard to describe. There have been protests and chanting. Different | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
groups making a point, some deeply moved and some just renting beer. | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
And the media satellite wagons have circled the scene. -- just drinking | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
beer. This is clearly one piece of the story of Brussels right now but | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
most important, the victims and their families, the painful wait for | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
news and for some, heartbreaking realisation of loss. That is what | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
this is all about. And behind the investigation, the authorities | :05:22. | :05:23. | |
trying to work out who did what and who has got away. | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
Secunder Kermani has been looking at what we know | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
The manhunt for the cell behind the attacks in Belgium. | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
This was one raid in the city's district of Anderlecht. | :05:35. | :05:36. | |
Belgian media initially reported they had netted Najim Laachraoui, | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
an IS bomb-maker believed to be on the run. | :05:40. | :05:41. | |
But it wasn't true and tonight there are reports he was one | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
The others were two brothers from Brussels, Khalid | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
One blew himself up at Zaventem airport. | :05:49. | :05:58. | |
Six years ago, Ibrahim el-Bakraoui and two accomplices armed | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
with assault rifles carried out a robbery at this money exchange. | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
As they sped off, they were followed by police. | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
Ibrahim, from his car, fired shots back at officers, | :06:11. | :06:12. | |
injuring one of them before they were later arrested. | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
He is just the latest example here of the crossover | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
between violent criminals and violent jihadis. | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
It was a flat where the brothers had been staying that was raided | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
Police found a IS flag and 15 kilograms of home-made | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
That's around 15 times the total amount used in the Paris attacks. | :06:32. | :06:44. | |
And they also found evidence to suggest that the men may have | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
brought forward plans to strike after the arrest | :06:48. | :06:48. | |
It was during a search of these apartments here that police say | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
they found a note from one of yesterday's suicide bombers. | :06:54. | :06:55. | |
In it, apparently he reveals that he knew the authorities | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
At the same street we have found a written testament by Ibrahim | :06:59. | :07:10. | |
el-Bakraoui in which he states, in which he said: | :07:11. | :07:21. | |
"I don't know what to do. | :07:22. | :07:23. | |
People are looking for me everywhere." | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
What seems to be emerging is that yesterday's attacks were the work | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
Khalid el-Bakraoui used a false ID to rent a flat in the Brussels | :07:31. | :07:38. | |
Two men escaped, possibly Khalid and his brother. | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
But inside, police found the DNA of Salah Abdeslam, | :07:45. | :07:46. | |
a key figure in the Paris attacks, who was finally | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
Back in September last year, Salah Abdeslam was driving a car | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
stopped on the Austro-Hungarian border. | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
On Friday, police revealed his real name was Najim Laachraoui. | :07:55. | :08:02. | |
He is believed to have fought in Syria with Islamic State. | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
He had rented a safe house used to prepare for the Paris attacks. | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
His DNA was found on explosive material suggesting he may have | :08:10. | :08:11. | |
helped them make the suicide belts in Paris and in Brussels. | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
And it was either him or an accomplice who received a text | :08:15. | :08:22. | |
message the night of the attacks in Paris reading, "We're off, | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
we're starting", leading some to believe he helped direct | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
He's also expected of involvement in yesterday's attacks. | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
These individuals connected between Brussels and Paris have | :08:36. | :08:37. | |
relied on very small networks with high levels of loyalties, | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
sometimes with family support, which explains that it was extremely | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
hard to track any exchange of information through cellphones | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
and this explains why they have been able to remain under the radar | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
The scale of the attacks has renewed scrutiny on Belgian security forces, | :08:53. | :09:10. | |
despite their success in arresting Salah Abdeslam. | :09:11. | :09:12. | |
Today, Turkey claimed one of the suicide bombers had been | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
deported as a terrorism suspect last year but that Belgium had | :09:16. | :09:17. | |
Tonight, there were calls for better intelligence corporation. | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
Every country now should bring information about everybody | :09:21. | :09:32. | |
who is considered dangerous, and bring it to a data file. | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
In these attacks, in France and Belgium, | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
it is quite clear that information was not shared enough. | :09:40. | :09:41. | |
Useful information was not shared enough. | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
And I insist, I think it is quite necessary now to enforce a European | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
Today was still very much about the victims. | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
The Belgian royal family came to pay their respects. | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
But there are still suspects on the run and many are now asking | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
whether this was an intelligence failure. | :10:04. | :10:12. | |
I was talking earlier about the vulnerability and resilience of | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
cities under attack and I'm pleased to be joined in the square by the | :10:17. | :10:27. | |
press -- a Professor of urban studies in Brussels, and also a | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
counsellor from the district of Forest, which was where an attempt | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
was made to capture Salah Abdeslam last week before he was captured | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
last Friday. Where do we start? A lot is being thrown at Belgium at | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
the moment, people criticising its integration, criticising security. | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
Let's hear a defence of Belgium because actually, we have had a taxi | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
and lots of other places and it is not just Brussels that has suffered. | :10:57. | :11:05. | |
I realise the image at the moment and I consider it as a former | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
minister, and I am very sad at that. Of course we are shocked about what | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
happened yesterday and we now that we are not naive, we have and just | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
to give. But Brussels is not only that. Sometimes what I hear abroad | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
from the international press and also sometimes from the Belgian | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
press, is that Brussels is only that. Brussels is not that, Brussels | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
is also a dynamic city, part of Europe of course. But Brussels is | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
also the place where we put a lot of effort for the renovation of the | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
city. It is important also for the citizens, for the young people, but | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
also in what we call the social cohesion between all the different | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
countries. Actually, Brussels is looking a bit ragged. It is looking | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
a bit rundown in parts, even quite central parts. Quite untidy. I think | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
you must visit some parts of Brussels, because it can seem like | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
that but it is not. It is not like that. You know, there are lot of | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
networks of solidarity, networks, social networks. Of course, we have | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
some cultural forces, educational elements that need to work with | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
young people, and also with parents. We need forces to do that. Eric, you | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
are an urban expert, Mullen Beek, do you see that as accurate, the way it | :12:40. | :12:47. | |
has been portrayed? -- Molenbeek. Well, it is a framing that is a | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
narrow vision. Molenbeek is one of the canal neighbourhoods, or | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
municipalities. The canal region was the old industrial area. Brussels is | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
a city that was industrialised rapidly over 20 or 30 years from a | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
main industrial city to a post-industrial city, becoming the | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
European capital, an international city. And what happened is that that | :13:13. | :13:19. | |
area, with popular neighbourhoods, is now an area of unemployed people, | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
50% of youth unemployment, 30% of our young people living in families | :13:26. | :13:33. | |
without income, and so we have a jewel city and Molenbeek is a | :13:34. | :13:44. | |
derelict area as such. -- a dual city. But of course it is not | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
because you are poor that you become a jihadi. That is still a marginal | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
phenomenon. And the local economy, there is a network of proximity so | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
at the same time, it is one of the most solidarity based areas of the | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
city. Let's talk about some of the things that Belgium is doing wrong. | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
Evelyn, you said that there were issues, clearly. What do you think | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
those issues are? There is not one answer, of course. It is not a local | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
question. It is an international question. It is an international | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
question and the answer, it is also the question of the relationship | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
between Europe and also the rest of the world. It is a question of the | :14:29. | :14:30. | |
threat of arms. What has the arms trade got to do | :14:31. | :14:47. | |
with it? When you find a Kalashnikov in an apartment... I see, the arms | :14:48. | :14:57. | |
trade. When you find also Belgian arms in such a country, an Arabic | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
city, it is a big question also in Belgium, it is the trade of the | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
arms. And then it is also the collaboration between the different | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
countries in Europe, between the police of course in Brussels, but | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
also with the other countries, not only political, but the police | :15:21. | :15:29. | |
coalition. Should we view what happened in Brussels yesterday as an | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
attack on the concept of a city in general, or what special Brussels | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
factors are there? This is an international city, how far should | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
we think of it as a Brussels thing or a more general thing? It is a | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
Brussels thing because Brussels is not only the capital of Belgium. I | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
do not think it is an attack against Belgium, it is an attack against the | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
capital of Europe, against the headquarters of Nato, against | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
Brussels as an international hub. It has a continental | :16:07. | :16:16. | |
influence. In that sense Brussels as a city in general is not the | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
country. If you ask what are the weaknesses? In fact the Belgian | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
state is a weak state and Brussels is a very multicultural and | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
multilingual city. Does it work as a city? The civil society is very | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
active and networks. Do people respect each other? We have a | :16:34. | :16:42. | |
national question and back community question for 200 years and 400 | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
people have been killed over these two centuries. If you compare it | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
with other multicultural cities, people do respect each other and the | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
Belgians have a long tradition of compromise and arranging things and | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
that is an example. Where you have a problem is you need investment in | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
socialising people of such different kinds. My criticism is that for one | :17:06. | :17:13. | |
year you have seen soldiers in the street and new investment in | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
policemen, but at the same time a reduction in schools and in fact | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
what is not done and that is the policy of the government. I agree | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
completely. The answer to that is not only security. Of course we have | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
to make the security of the citizen, but it is not only that. That is a | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
short-term answer. We have to put money, but not only money, but also | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
a recognition of education and of all these workers, the first level. | :17:45. | :17:52. | |
We need to leave it there. Thank you both very much indeed. That is our | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
coverage from Brussels. It is getting towards midnight here, still | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
plenty of people around. It is a paradox that at this point people | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
are told to avoid crowds and they reacts to yesterday's event by | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
creating a crowded space like this. It shows how strong our instinct is | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
to be together and to cluster at an important time. | :18:18. | :18:18. | |
So as you heard, Turkey says it warned Brussels about the bomber | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
and deported him from Turkey as a militant, | :18:23. | :18:24. | |
a claim the Belgian authorities have denied. | :18:25. | :18:26. | |
I asked our Defence Secretary Michael Fallon if he trusted | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
the Belgian authorities and the intelligence | :18:30. | :18:30. | |
I saw that report but I think it is far too early to start | :18:31. | :18:38. | |
criticising the Belgian authorities until the | :18:39. | :18:39. | |
investigation is complete, until we know exactly the movements | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
The head of Europol, Rob Wainwright, has said | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
that Isis has got a new, external command forced to transport | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
Do you recognise that that is where Isis is directing its thoughts now? | :18:53. | :18:59. | |
Not just London, but the streets of our | :19:00. | :19:01. | |
Yes, we know that Daesh has an external attack planning | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
operation that is designed to create mayhem on the streets of Western | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
cities and London is not exempt from that. | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
That is why we have to work together to combat it and it is why | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
we are playing such a key part in the coalition against Isis | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
And if that hit London, what would be that contingency plan? | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
David Cameron suggested last November that up to 10,000 military | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
personnel are available to support the police in dealing with that kind | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
Is that right, 10,000 military personnel? | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
Yes, that has been implemented, we have troops | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
standing by now to back up the armed police. | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
The armed police are the first response and they are being | :19:48. | :19:59. | |
increased, so there are now more and please, more visible and railway | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
stations and airports and a number of armed response vehicles | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
is being increased in our big cities, so that is in hand. | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
But as back up to come in behind the armed police we now have | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
military in reserve and they are able to call on troops, | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
some 5000 at 24 hours notice, and more | :20:15. | :20:16. | |
It is glaringly hard to ignore that the EU has not been able | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
The EU has open borders which we are not | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
Happily we have control of our own borders, | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
so we are a different category from that, but we benefit of course, | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
we have in a way an advantage in both worlds. | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
We keep control of our borders, but we | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
benefit because we share the intelligence, the flight | :20:44. | :20:45. | |
information and the cooperation that there is between security | :20:46. | :20:47. | |
Not really because when you have got one of the French attackers | :20:48. | :20:58. | |
whose phone shows he came to Birmingham, that he travelled | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
It does not make sense that we have control of our borders or not. | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
It does make sense because it is more difficult to get firearms into | :21:07. | :21:13. | |
this country. You can travel across Europe and not get your car search | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
because borders are open. Is the answer more cooperation and union? | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
Certainly more cooperation. This is not the time for us to be leaving a | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
partnership like the European Union. On the contrary, we should be | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
sharing more information with each other. Would you like to see an EU | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
intelligence agency? A body committed to intelligence with an EU | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
title? I would like to see what is now happening, which is all the | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
intelligence agencies and security forces across Europe beginning to | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
pool more of the information, to help each other and to swap data | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
about air traffic movements and to make sure everybody can benefit from | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
it. When people come to you and say, you look at what has happened in | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
Paris and in Belgium, you look at the fact that we do not, whatever | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
you may say, entirely trust the security and intelligence services | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
of other countries within the EU, why would you want to jeopardise the | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
security of your citizens by leaving as an part of the union when we do | :22:24. | :22:34. | |
not feel safe in it? We are not jeopardising the safety of our | :22:35. | :22:35. | |
citizens. Where there is intelligence we can share across | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
Europe, where we can tap into important information about movement | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
of terrorists, it makes sense to do so. | :22:43. | :22:42. | |
So what, if anything, do the attacks in Brussels tell us | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
And does it make any clearer the answer to the inevitable | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
question, whether Britain is safer or more exposed with the parameters | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
Joining me now, Dan Hannan MEP and author of Why Vote Leave, | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
and Charlie Faulkner Shadow Justice Secretary, | :22:58. | :22:59. | |
Welcome to you both. Perhaps more than anything else, this idea of | :23:00. | :23:12. | |
Theresa May, the Home Secretary, who kept us guessing for a long time | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
about which way she would go, who knows more than anyone about the | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
frustrations of dealing with EU institutions, has said loud and | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
clear it would make us more safe if we remain. I was never guessing, it | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
was always clear which way she should go. I have never ever heard | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
her say anything other than we should stay in EU. Equally, the | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
former head of our secret intelligence services has said we | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
would be safer if we leave the EU. It is important to look at why. | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
First of all, we would have the power to deport dangerous villains | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
and we would be outside elements of immigration rules and we would have | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
more control over who is coming in and leaving. It must be right if we | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
are safer if we are in control of our own borders. If you can control | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
what the ECJ does or what we do in terms of who we deport and sent | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
home, you have got control. It is rubbish because the reason we cannot | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
deport people is nothing to do with the European Union, it is the | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
European Convention of human rights that prevents that. Richard Dearlove | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
who uses that as his main argument is wrong. What about Abu Hamza? That | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
was the European Union and the reason why it is because the | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
European Convention on Human Rights. European Convention is an extra | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
argument. You are wrong. As far as the argument is about why we are | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
safer in Europe is because we have signed up to a specific number of | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
European Union instruments would allow us to go into databases on | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
fingerprints within 24 hours, number plates within five or 15 minutes and | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
DNA within 15 minutes and we are having that information when people | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
present themselves at your borders, or when you get DNA from a scene is | :25:15. | :25:21. | |
a vital piece of evidence. If you are looking at terrorists who are | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
crossing borders, to go out of the European Union you would have to | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
leave these arrangements. Anybody who says we are safer outside those | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
arrangements is talking absolute rubbish. The fingerprint comes under | :25:35. | :25:41. | |
an odd word which we are meant to be signing up to which would make 143 | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
days to wait for fingerprinting happen in 15 minutes. It is hard to | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
reject that. First, the alternative to the EU running elements of | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
criminal justice is not that we do not talk to our immediate allies. | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
For a long time before the EU there was the Hague Convention, Interpol, | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
extradition deals, recognition of time spent in prisons, or of that | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
existed and will continue to exist. Our intelligence sharing will carry | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
on with our friends in Europe. It must move faster if you are part of | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
it. We will have the choice on issues like the European arrest | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
warrant. Iceland this month is debating whether to join the | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
European arrest warrant. That is the choice for a post-EU democratic | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
Britain. I hope we do not stay in it because we pay a high price. And we | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
reject the ones we don't want, why can't we carry on doing that? He is | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
and we withdraw and then try to re-negotiate. It is rubbish. He says | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
we can go straight back into extradition arrangements. He will | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
know that in 1995 a terrorist fled from Paris, came to Britain in 1995 | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
and was extradited under the pre-European arrest warrant | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
arrangements seven years later. It was after the attempted bombings a | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
week after 7/7, Hussain Osman, one of the terrorists, was extradited | :27:17. | :27:23. | |
after two weeks. Would he not have been extradited, the same man who | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
was caught on camera, running out of the tube station, you are telling me | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
the Italians would not have extradited him without the European | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
arrest warrant? I am telling you yes and before the European arrest | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
warrant extradition is from Italy two years. I was the Secretary of | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
State for Justice at the time. That is a practical reality of the | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
European arrest warrant. A constituent of mine who was taken | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
out of Southampton to seek treatment, his parents were detained | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
by this awesome instrument that we were told was an anti-terrorism act. | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
When you put that power in the hands of the authorities, as in his case, | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
they use it routinely. So you are against it? You would not want us to | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
rejoin the European arrest warrant outside the EU? What would that | :28:16. | :28:25. | |
mean? I would not. It would mean we could not extradite terrorists in | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
weeks and once they manage to get outside Britain it would take years | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
to get them back in. What do countries who do not have the | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
European arrest warrant do when there is a very clear case? It takes | :28:37. | :28:45. | |
years. Is that not right? Yes or no? I had a boy who was celebrating his | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
A-levels in Greece who spent two years an obviously false charges in | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
a case of mistaken identity, 11 months in one of the worst prisons | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
in Europe waiting for his case to come to trial and by the time he was | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
finally cleared, the guys with whom he had been celebrating his A-levels | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
had graduated. How do you give that back to a boy of his age? That is | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
the reality. Are you not creating a bureaucratic nightmare every time | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
you pull out of a system and have the time you want to readmit | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
yourself and have the time you do not. The bureaucracy is never | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
ending. But it is the bureaucracy that is the mess we are in now. It | :29:30. | :29:36. | |
is like hanging a welcome sign over Europe for terrorists. Going back to | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
security, do you think we are less secure out of the EU, less secure | :29:43. | :29:49. | |
out of the EU? Without doubt we would be less secure. Terrorists are | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
crossing borders to try to attack very many of the European countries. | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
We need to cooperate. Our borders will not change. No, but we could | :30:00. | :30:06. | |
enter into these arrangements where there are data sharing arrangements. | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
We agreed to open our borders to the rest of the EU and it is now clear | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
that the EU has opened its borders to the entire world. That was not | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
the original deal and I fail to see how it makes us safer. And we do not | :30:21. | :30:27. | |
have open borders. As a result of not having open borders, but having | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
joined in the Schengen information sharing arrangements, we get full | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
information about people trying to get into our country. The last | :30:36. | :30:43. | |
question, on the back of a rather explicit text from one of your | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
labour colleagues, what about this Labour list? You are up here and do | :30:48. | :30:54. | |
not appear on it, are you core, core plus or neutral or hostile? Today Mr | :30:55. | :31:01. | |
Iain Duncan Smith had said that the Prime Minister's economic policy was | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
a total sham, yet Mr Cameron responded by referring to this silly | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
list and he was able to distract attention from his own failure as a | :31:11. | :31:12. | |
Prime Minister. In a clear shot, isn't it? -- | :31:13. | :31:23. | |
missing an open goal with a clear shot, isn't it? All Jeremy Corbyn | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
has to do when the Prime Minister asks about the list, you will see | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
him wriggling when he is referring to something as trivial as that. | :31:34. | :31:35. | |
Thank you both for coming in. It's becoming increasingly clear | :31:36. | :31:36. | |
this kind of terror recognizes no particular target, | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
no state, no end and no aim. So what tools do we have to fight | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
what is essentially endless random acts knitted clumsily together | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
in the name of jihad? I asked the French philosopher | :31:49. | :31:50. | |
Bernard Henri Levy, who has just returned from the frontline | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
of Kurdistan, where he's been making It was a symbol with Charlie, | :31:54. | :31:55. | |
it was a war with Bataclan and it is general war | :31:56. | :32:07. | |
now with Brussels. Europe is living in | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
a state of emergency. It is not only a war, | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
it is a general war. This is the first point | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
after what happened in Brussels. There is a will in Brussels | :32:23. | :32:24. | |
to terrorise an entire city, You know, all the fascists | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
in history, they commit genocide. These fascists, Isis, | :32:32. | :32:43. | |
they want to commit genocide too, but maybe also, I don't know how | :32:44. | :32:54. | |
to say it, metro-cide, Because city means civility, | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
it means citizenship, it means spirit of cosmopolitanism, | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
a city as itself is a great idea. We always hear people saying, | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
"We will be brave, we won't be cowed, we'll carry on," | :33:07. | :33:15. | |
but underneath all the rhetoric there is fear and people do | :33:16. | :33:17. | |
change how they live. The only way to wage this battle | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
I feel is to go to the core, to go to the brain of this war, | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
the core, the brain, Isis is very different from Al-Qaeda | :33:29. | :33:30. | |
because they mix the two models, the two patterns, the two paradigms, | :33:31. | :33:39. | |
the paradigms of terror without state and the paradigms | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
of terror with a state. They join the two models | :33:45. | :33:51. | |
and this is their strength. This is why it is a new scale | :33:52. | :33:53. | |
compared to Al-Qaeda. So there is a so-called Islamic | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
State. The only way the West has to defeat | :33:57. | :34:05. | |
them is to hit in their state there. I don't say it will be a miracle | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
solution, we will still have, like a duck which continues to live | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
even when he has no head, But if we destroy their | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
headquarters, if we destroy the training camps, if we destroy | :34:18. | :34:25. | |
the people who give orders and who planned Brussels, | :34:26. | :34:33. | |
Paris, yesterday London, hopefully not, maybe tomorrow, | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
if we destroy the heart, if we destroy the masterplan, | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
it will be the beginning Many people will remember | :34:43. | :34:44. | |
you were passionate about aiding When you look at Libya | :34:45. | :34:55. | |
without Gaddafi does that seem The real comparison to do is Libya | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
where we English and French intervened, and Syria | :35:00. | :35:12. | |
where we washed our hands. The country is empty, | :35:13. | :35:14. | |
millions of refugees, the destabilisation | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
of Lebanon, of Turkey... But Libya is the next one, | :35:18. | :35:19. | |
that will be the next part of Isis. Isis was born in Iraq and in Syria, | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
not in Libya. They are trying to go now in Libya, | :35:23. | :35:29. | |
but the real core of Isis If in August 2013 the English | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
Parliament on one side and Barack Obama on the other | :35:33. | :35:41. | |
side had not stopped the will of David Cameron | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
to punish Bashar al-Assad, at the moment of the use | :35:46. | :35:47. | |
of chemical weapons, There would probably not be these | :35:48. | :35:49. | |
millions of poor people fleeing the war and the misery | :35:50. | :36:04. | |
and the bombing of the two sides On a personal note, you were | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
targeted by Belgian extremists. Do you understand why | :36:08. | :36:22. | |
you became that target? You know, I became a target | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
like so many people. When you are vocal against these | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
people, you are inevitably a target. What they cannot stand is somebody | :36:29. | :36:44. | |
who says that Islam as such is not evil, somebody who says | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
there is a good Islam, that this good Islam | :36:48. | :36:49. | |
should be reinforced. This is more intolerable for Isis | :36:50. | :36:51. | |
probably than the one single-minded redneck who would say | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
Islam is as itself. Donald Trump is their ally | :36:59. | :37:00. | |
in a way, intellectually, of these | :37:01. | :37:12. | |
people of Isis. They would never have an argument | :37:13. | :37:14. | |
with Donald Trump as a symbol. Isis pleads for the war | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
of civilisation. The idea of Isis is that Islam | :37:18. | :37:19. | |
as a bloc should be against the West They try to gather all the Muslims | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
of the world under their black flag in order to fight the West | :37:23. | :37:29. | |
as a bloc. There are some people in the West | :37:30. | :37:36. | |
who say exactly the same thing, that there should be | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
a bloc against a bloc, an ideological battle between Islam | :37:40. | :37:41. | |
as such and the West as such. The first risk is to say that jihad | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
represents all Islam. This is horrible, false | :37:45. | :37:54. | |
and it is a crime against the spirit But there is a symmetrical force | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
which is to say that Islamism and jihadism has nothing | :37:58. | :38:05. | |
to do with Islam. Jihadism with Islam, | :38:06. | :38:07. | |
it has something to do, This is the question that has to be | :38:08. | :38:22. | |
addressed to the widest Does it feel as if Europe | :38:23. | :38:34. | |
is in trouble now? Do you think of it as a continent | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
or a union in trouble? Europe might be in the | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
process of dying today. The big mistake of my generation has | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
been to believe that Europe was done, that it was finished, | :38:46. | :38:56. | |
that it was inscribed, written in the sense of history | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
and that whatever happens, Not true, there is no | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
sense of history. And now there is clearly a collapse | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
in Europe with Greece, with Brexit, if it happens, | :39:09. | :39:17. | |
with the crisis of the refugees, with the borders, there | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
is a collapse in our Europe, which would mean for European people | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
more unemployment, more But it is a credible | :39:26. | :39:27. | |
scenario today alas. And you see Brexit | :39:28. | :39:40. | |
as a part of that? I think Brexit would | :39:41. | :39:42. | |
be part of that. I am not an economist, | :39:43. | :39:52. | |
but I know enough. I think it | :39:53. | :39:54. | |
would not be good for British people and it would not be good for Europe | :39:55. | :40:04. | |
and it will be one more signal for Europe as a whole | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
of deconstruction, What would be a Europe | :40:09. | :40:09. | |
without England? We leave you here in London, | :40:10. | :40:19. | |
and a gesture of solidarity with the people of Brussels, | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
as the capital's landmarks light up Good evening. The Easter weekend is | :40:25. | :41:11. | |
looming large, but there is a change to much more unsettled conditions. | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
It is pretty | :41:16. | :41:16. |