23/03/2016 Newsnight


23/03/2016

With Emily Maitlis and Evan Davis in Brussels. The defence secretary discusses whether the EU makes us more or less safe; and why Bernard-Henri Levy thinks Europe might be dying.


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Transcript


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Brussels is a city of security today. The search for remaining

:00:10.:00:21.

perpetrators. And sadness. We are here at the Place de la Bourse, with

:00:22.:00:25.

Brussels trying to recover. Will ask if it is fair to blame Belgium for

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security failure is given the number of other cities that have ensured

:00:30.:00:31.

this kind of terror. Will Brexit make us

:00:32.:00:33.

safer from terror - We'll ask the Defence

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Secretary Michael Fallon, Europhile Lord Falconer

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and sceptic Daniel Hannan. And France's most renowned living

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philosopher Bernard Henri Levi. It is continental, a continental

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state of emergency. Europe is now living in a state of emergency. Not

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only France. It is not only war, it is general war.

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A day in which the saddest stories begin to emerge,

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as we start putting names, faces, personalities to the numbers we have

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been reporting - the fatalities of yesterday's attacks.

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Alongside that, of course the hunt for the guilty goes on,

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and the attempt to clarify who was involved.

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There's been some confusion but we know the names of two suicide

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brothers, - yes, another pair of terrorist siblings,

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In this case, one who killed himself at the airport,

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the other on the metro.

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Meanwhile Belgium has been in mourning today, the first

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Brussels is not back to normal, it lacks a lot of its bustle,

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but it does at least have buses again, and much of the metro

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is working too, so it is getting back to business.

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The city is itself a target of course -

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the city way of life makes us vulnerable to attack,

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Brussels, one day on. And here of normality. Like other cities, that

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have been attacked, it is all about living here, crowding on to buses

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and into underground spaces from which it is hard to escape.

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Wonderful if everyone respects the rules, awful when they do not. So in

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Brussels today, extra security was one of the extra hassles of urban

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life. Queues to get into the main station, the Gare Midi, to make room

:02:37.:02:46.

for bag searches and quick checks. I guess there is nothing else we can

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do so we have to accept it and be patient. A heavy police and military

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presence, to. Reassuring but also a reminder of what there is to fear.

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Hassell, for sure, the danger of crowds, probably, but cities have an

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irrepressible ability to recover, and Brussels is no exception. It is

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all about safety in numbers. There are just too many individuals who

:03:13.:03:16.

simply have something they need to do and they force life back into the

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public domain. One other feature of Brussels today, collective mourning.

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The silence at midday, the Place de la Bourse designated by people power

:03:29.:03:34.

alone as a physical symbol for collective expression. Can a city

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have feelings? I always grown at myself when I find myself asking the

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question, what is the mood in Brussels? But it can be, located.

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There is a mood in Brussels. -- it can be confiscated. I am very

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emotional because I born here. I think it is awful that our democracy

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is hurt in that way. Of course, there are questions being asked

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today. Is it something innate about cities, or this city, that makes

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murderous? Districts like Mullen Beek get overlooked, people go off

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the rails and get caught up in the insane and anti-social. Life passes

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them by. -- districts like Molenbeek. The challenge is to ease

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some of those problems while preserving what is good about

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Brussels and dense, urban life. On that theme of cities, you will hear

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more about that in the interview with Emily and Bernard Henri Levi

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later. I am here at the Place de la Bourse, and the mood is slightly

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hard to describe. There have been protests and chanting. Different

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groups making a point, some deeply moved and some just renting beer.

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And the media satellite wagons have circled the scene. -- just drinking

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beer. This is clearly one piece of the story of Brussels right now but

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most important, the victims and their families, the painful wait for

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news and for some, heartbreaking realisation of loss. That is what

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this is all about. And behind the investigation, the authorities

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trying to work out who did what and who has got away.

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Secunder Kermani has been looking at what we know

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The manhunt for the cell behind the attacks in Belgium.

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This was one raid in the city's district of Anderlecht.

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Belgian media initially reported they had netted Najim Laachraoui,

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an IS bomb-maker believed to be on the run.

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But it wasn't true and tonight there are reports he was one

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The others were two brothers from Brussels, Khalid

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One blew himself up at Zaventem airport.

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Six years ago, Ibrahim el-Bakraoui and two accomplices armed

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with assault rifles carried out a robbery at this money exchange.

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As they sped off, they were followed by police.

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Ibrahim, from his car, fired shots back at officers,

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injuring one of them before they were later arrested.

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He is just the latest example here of the crossover

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between violent criminals and violent jihadis.

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It was a flat where the brothers had been staying that was raided

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Police found a IS flag and 15 kilograms of home-made

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That's around 15 times the total amount used in the Paris attacks.

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And they also found evidence to suggest that the men may have

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brought forward plans to strike after the arrest

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It was during a search of these apartments here that police say

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they found a note from one of yesterday's suicide bombers.

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In it, apparently he reveals that he knew the authorities

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At the same street we have found a written testament by Ibrahim

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el-Bakraoui in which he states, in which he said:

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"I don't know what to do.

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People are looking for me everywhere."

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What seems to be emerging is that yesterday's attacks were the work

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Khalid el-Bakraoui used a false ID to rent a flat in the Brussels

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Two men escaped, possibly Khalid and his brother.

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But inside, police found the DNA of Salah Abdeslam,

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a key figure in the Paris attacks, who was finally

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Back in September last year, Salah Abdeslam was driving a car

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stopped on the Austro-Hungarian border.

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On Friday, police revealed his real name was Najim Laachraoui.

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He is believed to have fought in Syria with Islamic State.

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He had rented a safe house used to prepare for the Paris attacks.

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His DNA was found on explosive material suggesting he may have

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helped them make the suicide belts in Paris and in Brussels.

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And it was either him or an accomplice who received a text

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message the night of the attacks in Paris reading, "We're off,

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we're starting", leading some to believe he helped direct

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He's also expected of involvement in yesterday's attacks.

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These individuals connected between Brussels and Paris have

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relied on very small networks with high levels of loyalties,

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sometimes with family support, which explains that it was extremely

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hard to track any exchange of information through cellphones

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and this explains why they have been able to remain under the radar

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The scale of the attacks has renewed scrutiny on Belgian security forces,

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despite their success in arresting Salah Abdeslam.

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Today, Turkey claimed one of the suicide bombers had been

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deported as a terrorism suspect last year but that Belgium had

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Tonight, there were calls for better intelligence corporation.

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Every country now should bring information about everybody

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who is considered dangerous, and bring it to a data file.

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In these attacks, in France and Belgium,

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it is quite clear that information was not shared enough.

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Useful information was not shared enough.

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And I insist, I think it is quite necessary now to enforce a European

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Today was still very much about the victims.

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The Belgian royal family came to pay their respects.

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But there are still suspects on the run and many are now asking

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whether this was an intelligence failure.

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I was talking earlier about the vulnerability and resilience of

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cities under attack and I'm pleased to be joined in the square by the

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press -- a Professor of urban studies in Brussels, and also a

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counsellor from the district of Forest, which was where an attempt

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was made to capture Salah Abdeslam last week before he was captured

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last Friday. Where do we start? A lot is being thrown at Belgium at

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the moment, people criticising its integration, criticising security.

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Let's hear a defence of Belgium because actually, we have had a taxi

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and lots of other places and it is not just Brussels that has suffered.

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I realise the image at the moment and I consider it as a former

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minister, and I am very sad at that. Of course we are shocked about what

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happened yesterday and we now that we are not naive, we have and just

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to give. But Brussels is not only that. Sometimes what I hear abroad

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from the international press and also sometimes from the Belgian

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press, is that Brussels is only that. Brussels is not that, Brussels

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is also a dynamic city, part of Europe of course. But Brussels is

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also the place where we put a lot of effort for the renovation of the

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city. It is important also for the citizens, for the young people, but

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also in what we call the social cohesion between all the different

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countries. Actually, Brussels is looking a bit ragged. It is looking

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a bit rundown in parts, even quite central parts. Quite untidy. I think

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you must visit some parts of Brussels, because it can seem like

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that but it is not. It is not like that. You know, there are lot of

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networks of solidarity, networks, social networks. Of course, we have

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some cultural forces, educational elements that need to work with

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young people, and also with parents. We need forces to do that. Eric, you

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are an urban expert, Mullen Beek, do you see that as accurate, the way it

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has been portrayed? -- Molenbeek. Well, it is a framing that is a

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narrow vision. Molenbeek is one of the canal neighbourhoods, or

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municipalities. The canal region was the old industrial area. Brussels is

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a city that was industrialised rapidly over 20 or 30 years from a

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main industrial city to a post-industrial city, becoming the

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European capital, an international city. And what happened is that that

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area, with popular neighbourhoods, is now an area of unemployed people,

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50% of youth unemployment, 30% of our young people living in families

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without income, and so we have a jewel city and Molenbeek is a

:13:34.:13:44.

derelict area as such. -- a dual city. But of course it is not

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because you are poor that you become a jihadi. That is still a marginal

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phenomenon. And the local economy, there is a network of proximity so

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at the same time, it is one of the most solidarity based areas of the

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city. Let's talk about some of the things that Belgium is doing wrong.

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Evelyn, you said that there were issues, clearly. What do you think

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those issues are? There is not one answer, of course. It is not a local

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question. It is an international question. It is an international

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question and the answer, it is also the question of the relationship

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between Europe and also the rest of the world. It is a question of the

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threat of arms. What has the arms trade got to do

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with it? When you find a Kalashnikov in an apartment... I see, the arms

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trade. When you find also Belgian arms in such a country, an Arabic

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city, it is a big question also in Belgium, it is the trade of the

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arms. And then it is also the collaboration between the different

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countries in Europe, between the police of course in Brussels, but

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also with the other countries, not only political, but the police

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coalition. Should we view what happened in Brussels yesterday as an

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attack on the concept of a city in general, or what special Brussels

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factors are there? This is an international city, how far should

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we think of it as a Brussels thing or a more general thing? It is a

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Brussels thing because Brussels is not only the capital of Belgium. I

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do not think it is an attack against Belgium, it is an attack against the

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capital of Europe, against the headquarters of Nato, against

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Brussels as an international hub. It has a continental

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influence. In that sense Brussels as a city in general is not the

:16:17.:16:20.

country. If you ask what are the weaknesses? In fact the Belgian

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state is a weak state and Brussels is a very multicultural and

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multilingual city. Does it work as a city? The civil society is very

:16:27.:16:33.

active and networks. Do people respect each other? We have a

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national question and back community question for 200 years and 400

:16:43.:16:46.

people have been killed over these two centuries. If you compare it

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with other multicultural cities, people do respect each other and the

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Belgians have a long tradition of compromise and arranging things and

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that is an example. Where you have a problem is you need investment in

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socialising people of such different kinds. My criticism is that for one

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year you have seen soldiers in the street and new investment in

:17:14.:17:16.

policemen, but at the same time a reduction in schools and in fact

:17:17.:17:22.

what is not done and that is the policy of the government. I agree

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completely. The answer to that is not only security. Of course we have

:17:30.:17:33.

to make the security of the citizen, but it is not only that. That is a

:17:34.:17:40.

short-term answer. We have to put money, but not only money, but also

:17:41.:17:44.

a recognition of education and of all these workers, the first level.

:17:45.:17:52.

We need to leave it there. Thank you both very much indeed. That is our

:17:53.:17:58.

coverage from Brussels. It is getting towards midnight here, still

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plenty of people around. It is a paradox that at this point people

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are told to avoid crowds and they reacts to yesterday's event by

:18:09.:18:13.

creating a crowded space like this. It shows how strong our instinct is

:18:14.:18:17.

to be together and to cluster at an important time.

:18:18.:18:18.

So as you heard, Turkey says it warned Brussels about the bomber

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and deported him from Turkey as a militant,

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a claim the Belgian authorities have denied.

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I asked our Defence Secretary Michael Fallon if he trusted

:18:27.:18:29.

the Belgian authorities and the intelligence

:18:30.:18:30.

I saw that report but I think it is far too early to start

:18:31.:18:38.

criticising the Belgian authorities until the

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investigation is complete, until we know exactly the movements

:18:40.:18:43.

The head of Europol, Rob Wainwright, has said

:18:44.:18:48.

that Isis has got a new, external command forced to transport

:18:49.:18:52.

Do you recognise that that is where Isis is directing its thoughts now?

:18:53.:18:59.

Not just London, but the streets of our

:19:00.:19:01.

Yes, we know that Daesh has an external attack planning

:19:02.:19:06.

operation that is designed to create mayhem on the streets of Western

:19:07.:19:10.

cities and London is not exempt from that.

:19:11.:19:14.

That is why we have to work together to combat it and it is why

:19:15.:19:17.

we are playing such a key part in the coalition against Isis

:19:18.:19:21.

And if that hit London, what would be that contingency plan?

:19:22.:19:27.

David Cameron suggested last November that up to 10,000 military

:19:28.:19:31.

personnel are available to support the police in dealing with that kind

:19:32.:19:34.

Is that right, 10,000 military personnel?

:19:35.:19:41.

Yes, that has been implemented, we have troops

:19:42.:19:44.

standing by now to back up the armed police.

:19:45.:19:47.

The armed police are the first response and they are being

:19:48.:19:59.

increased, so there are now more and please, more visible and railway

:20:00.:20:02.

stations and airports and a number of armed response vehicles

:20:03.:20:05.

is being increased in our big cities, so that is in hand.

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But as back up to come in behind the armed police we now have

:20:09.:20:11.

military in reserve and they are able to call on troops,

:20:12.:20:14.

some 5000 at 24 hours notice, and more

:20:15.:20:16.

It is glaringly hard to ignore that the EU has not been able

:20:17.:20:21.

The EU has open borders which we are not

:20:22.:20:25.

Happily we have control of our own borders,

:20:26.:20:30.

so we are a different category from that, but we benefit of course,

:20:31.:20:37.

we have in a way an advantage in both worlds.

:20:38.:20:40.

We keep control of our borders, but we

:20:41.:20:43.

benefit because we share the intelligence, the flight

:20:44.:20:45.

information and the cooperation that there is between security

:20:46.:20:47.

Not really because when you have got one of the French attackers

:20:48.:20:58.

whose phone shows he came to Birmingham, that he travelled

:20:59.:21:01.

It does not make sense that we have control of our borders or not.

:21:02.:21:06.

It does make sense because it is more difficult to get firearms into

:21:07.:21:13.

this country. You can travel across Europe and not get your car search

:21:14.:21:18.

because borders are open. Is the answer more cooperation and union?

:21:19.:21:24.

Certainly more cooperation. This is not the time for us to be leaving a

:21:25.:21:28.

partnership like the European Union. On the contrary, we should be

:21:29.:21:32.

sharing more information with each other. Would you like to see an EU

:21:33.:21:38.

intelligence agency? A body committed to intelligence with an EU

:21:39.:21:43.

title? I would like to see what is now happening, which is all the

:21:44.:21:48.

intelligence agencies and security forces across Europe beginning to

:21:49.:21:52.

pool more of the information, to help each other and to swap data

:21:53.:21:57.

about air traffic movements and to make sure everybody can benefit from

:21:58.:22:03.

it. When people come to you and say, you look at what has happened in

:22:04.:22:06.

Paris and in Belgium, you look at the fact that we do not, whatever

:22:07.:22:13.

you may say, entirely trust the security and intelligence services

:22:14.:22:17.

of other countries within the EU, why would you want to jeopardise the

:22:18.:22:23.

security of your citizens by leaving as an part of the union when we do

:22:24.:22:34.

not feel safe in it? We are not jeopardising the safety of our

:22:35.:22:35.

citizens. Where there is intelligence we can share across

:22:36.:22:39.

Europe, where we can tap into important information about movement

:22:40.:22:42.

of terrorists, it makes sense to do so.

:22:43.:22:42.

So what, if anything, do the attacks in Brussels tell us

:22:43.:22:47.

And does it make any clearer the answer to the inevitable

:22:48.:22:50.

question, whether Britain is safer or more exposed with the parameters

:22:51.:22:53.

Joining me now, Dan Hannan MEP and author of Why Vote Leave,

:22:54.:22:57.

and Charlie Faulkner Shadow Justice Secretary,

:22:58.:22:59.

Welcome to you both. Perhaps more than anything else, this idea of

:23:00.:23:12.

Theresa May, the Home Secretary, who kept us guessing for a long time

:23:13.:23:16.

about which way she would go, who knows more than anyone about the

:23:17.:23:22.

frustrations of dealing with EU institutions, has said loud and

:23:23.:23:26.

clear it would make us more safe if we remain. I was never guessing, it

:23:27.:23:31.

was always clear which way she should go. I have never ever heard

:23:32.:23:35.

her say anything other than we should stay in EU. Equally, the

:23:36.:23:41.

former head of our secret intelligence services has said we

:23:42.:23:46.

would be safer if we leave the EU. It is important to look at why.

:23:47.:23:51.

First of all, we would have the power to deport dangerous villains

:23:52.:23:56.

and we would be outside elements of immigration rules and we would have

:23:57.:24:01.

more control over who is coming in and leaving. It must be right if we

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are safer if we are in control of our own borders. If you can control

:24:08.:24:12.

what the ECJ does or what we do in terms of who we deport and sent

:24:13.:24:17.

home, you have got control. It is rubbish because the reason we cannot

:24:18.:24:22.

deport people is nothing to do with the European Union, it is the

:24:23.:24:26.

European Convention of human rights that prevents that. Richard Dearlove

:24:27.:24:29.

who uses that as his main argument is wrong. What about Abu Hamza? That

:24:30.:24:36.

was the European Union and the reason why it is because the

:24:37.:24:42.

European Convention on Human Rights. European Convention is an extra

:24:43.:24:49.

argument. You are wrong. As far as the argument is about why we are

:24:50.:24:53.

safer in Europe is because we have signed up to a specific number of

:24:54.:24:58.

European Union instruments would allow us to go into databases on

:24:59.:25:03.

fingerprints within 24 hours, number plates within five or 15 minutes and

:25:04.:25:09.

DNA within 15 minutes and we are having that information when people

:25:10.:25:14.

present themselves at your borders, or when you get DNA from a scene is

:25:15.:25:21.

a vital piece of evidence. If you are looking at terrorists who are

:25:22.:25:25.

crossing borders, to go out of the European Union you would have to

:25:26.:25:29.

leave these arrangements. Anybody who says we are safer outside those

:25:30.:25:34.

arrangements is talking absolute rubbish. The fingerprint comes under

:25:35.:25:41.

an odd word which we are meant to be signing up to which would make 143

:25:42.:25:47.

days to wait for fingerprinting happen in 15 minutes. It is hard to

:25:48.:25:53.

reject that. First, the alternative to the EU running elements of

:25:54.:25:56.

criminal justice is not that we do not talk to our immediate allies.

:25:57.:26:03.

For a long time before the EU there was the Hague Convention, Interpol,

:26:04.:26:07.

extradition deals, recognition of time spent in prisons, or of that

:26:08.:26:13.

existed and will continue to exist. Our intelligence sharing will carry

:26:14.:26:20.

on with our friends in Europe. It must move faster if you are part of

:26:21.:26:25.

it. We will have the choice on issues like the European arrest

:26:26.:26:29.

warrant. Iceland this month is debating whether to join the

:26:30.:26:33.

European arrest warrant. That is the choice for a post-EU democratic

:26:34.:26:38.

Britain. I hope we do not stay in it because we pay a high price. And we

:26:39.:26:44.

reject the ones we don't want, why can't we carry on doing that? He is

:26:45.:26:50.

and we withdraw and then try to re-negotiate. It is rubbish. He says

:26:51.:26:55.

we can go straight back into extradition arrangements. He will

:26:56.:27:00.

know that in 1995 a terrorist fled from Paris, came to Britain in 1995

:27:01.:27:07.

and was extradited under the pre-European arrest warrant

:27:08.:27:11.

arrangements seven years later. It was after the attempted bombings a

:27:12.:27:16.

week after 7/7, Hussain Osman, one of the terrorists, was extradited

:27:17.:27:23.

after two weeks. Would he not have been extradited, the same man who

:27:24.:27:28.

was caught on camera, running out of the tube station, you are telling me

:27:29.:27:33.

the Italians would not have extradited him without the European

:27:34.:27:38.

arrest warrant? I am telling you yes and before the European arrest

:27:39.:27:42.

warrant extradition is from Italy two years. I was the Secretary of

:27:43.:27:48.

State for Justice at the time. That is a practical reality of the

:27:49.:27:52.

European arrest warrant. A constituent of mine who was taken

:27:53.:27:55.

out of Southampton to seek treatment, his parents were detained

:27:56.:27:59.

by this awesome instrument that we were told was an anti-terrorism act.

:28:00.:28:04.

When you put that power in the hands of the authorities, as in his case,

:28:05.:28:09.

they use it routinely. So you are against it? You would not want us to

:28:10.:28:15.

rejoin the European arrest warrant outside the EU? What would that

:28:16.:28:25.

mean? I would not. It would mean we could not extradite terrorists in

:28:26.:28:28.

weeks and once they manage to get outside Britain it would take years

:28:29.:28:33.

to get them back in. What do countries who do not have the

:28:34.:28:36.

European arrest warrant do when there is a very clear case? It takes

:28:37.:28:45.

years. Is that not right? Yes or no? I had a boy who was celebrating his

:28:46.:28:50.

A-levels in Greece who spent two years an obviously false charges in

:28:51.:28:54.

a case of mistaken identity, 11 months in one of the worst prisons

:28:55.:28:58.

in Europe waiting for his case to come to trial and by the time he was

:28:59.:29:04.

finally cleared, the guys with whom he had been celebrating his A-levels

:29:05.:29:08.

had graduated. How do you give that back to a boy of his age? That is

:29:09.:29:15.

the reality. Are you not creating a bureaucratic nightmare every time

:29:16.:29:18.

you pull out of a system and have the time you want to readmit

:29:19.:29:23.

yourself and have the time you do not. The bureaucracy is never

:29:24.:29:29.

ending. But it is the bureaucracy that is the mess we are in now. It

:29:30.:29:36.

is like hanging a welcome sign over Europe for terrorists. Going back to

:29:37.:29:42.

security, do you think we are less secure out of the EU, less secure

:29:43.:29:49.

out of the EU? Without doubt we would be less secure. Terrorists are

:29:50.:29:54.

crossing borders to try to attack very many of the European countries.

:29:55.:29:59.

We need to cooperate. Our borders will not change. No, but we could

:30:00.:30:06.

enter into these arrangements where there are data sharing arrangements.

:30:07.:30:11.

We agreed to open our borders to the rest of the EU and it is now clear

:30:12.:30:16.

that the EU has opened its borders to the entire world. That was not

:30:17.:30:20.

the original deal and I fail to see how it makes us safer. And we do not

:30:21.:30:27.

have open borders. As a result of not having open borders, but having

:30:28.:30:32.

joined in the Schengen information sharing arrangements, we get full

:30:33.:30:35.

information about people trying to get into our country. The last

:30:36.:30:43.

question, on the back of a rather explicit text from one of your

:30:44.:30:47.

labour colleagues, what about this Labour list? You are up here and do

:30:48.:30:54.

not appear on it, are you core, core plus or neutral or hostile? Today Mr

:30:55.:31:01.

Iain Duncan Smith had said that the Prime Minister's economic policy was

:31:02.:31:06.

a total sham, yet Mr Cameron responded by referring to this silly

:31:07.:31:10.

list and he was able to distract attention from his own failure as a

:31:11.:31:12.

Prime Minister. In a clear shot, isn't it? --

:31:13.:31:23.

missing an open goal with a clear shot, isn't it? All Jeremy Corbyn

:31:24.:31:29.

has to do when the Prime Minister asks about the list, you will see

:31:30.:31:33.

him wriggling when he is referring to something as trivial as that.

:31:34.:31:35.

Thank you both for coming in. It's becoming increasingly clear

:31:36.:31:36.

this kind of terror recognizes no particular target,

:31:37.:31:41.

no state, no end and no aim. So what tools do we have to fight

:31:42.:31:44.

what is essentially endless random acts knitted clumsily together

:31:45.:31:48.

in the name of jihad? I asked the French philosopher

:31:49.:31:50.

Bernard Henri Levy, who has just returned from the frontline

:31:51.:31:53.

of Kurdistan, where he's been making It was a symbol with Charlie,

:31:54.:31:55.

it was a war with Bataclan and it is general war

:31:56.:32:07.

now with Brussels. Europe is living in

:32:08.:32:11.

a state of emergency. It is not only a war,

:32:12.:32:17.

it is a general war. This is the first point

:32:18.:32:22.

after what happened in Brussels. There is a will in Brussels

:32:23.:32:24.

to terrorise an entire city, You know, all the fascists

:32:25.:32:31.

in history, they commit genocide. These fascists, Isis,

:32:32.:32:43.

they want to commit genocide too, but maybe also, I don't know how

:32:44.:32:54.

to say it, metro-cide, Because city means civility,

:32:55.:32:57.

it means citizenship, it means spirit of cosmopolitanism,

:32:58.:33:03.

a city as itself is a great idea. We always hear people saying,

:33:04.:33:06.

"We will be brave, we won't be cowed, we'll carry on,"

:33:07.:33:15.

but underneath all the rhetoric there is fear and people do

:33:16.:33:17.

change how they live. The only way to wage this battle

:33:18.:33:23.

I feel is to go to the core, to go to the brain of this war,

:33:24.:33:28.

the core, the brain, Isis is very different from Al-Qaeda

:33:29.:33:30.

because they mix the two models, the two patterns, the two paradigms,

:33:31.:33:39.

the paradigms of terror without state and the paradigms

:33:40.:33:44.

of terror with a state. They join the two models

:33:45.:33:51.

and this is their strength. This is why it is a new scale

:33:52.:33:53.

compared to Al-Qaeda. So there is a so-called Islamic

:33:54.:33:56.

State. The only way the West has to defeat

:33:57.:34:05.

them is to hit in their state there. I don't say it will be a miracle

:34:06.:34:11.

solution, we will still have, like a duck which continues to live

:34:12.:34:14.

even when he has no head, But if we destroy their

:34:15.:34:17.

headquarters, if we destroy the training camps, if we destroy

:34:18.:34:25.

the people who give orders and who planned Brussels,

:34:26.:34:33.

Paris, yesterday London, hopefully not, maybe tomorrow,

:34:34.:34:36.

if we destroy the heart, if we destroy the masterplan,

:34:37.:34:42.

it will be the beginning Many people will remember

:34:43.:34:44.

you were passionate about aiding When you look at Libya

:34:45.:34:55.

without Gaddafi does that seem The real comparison to do is Libya

:34:56.:34:59.

where we English and French intervened, and Syria

:35:00.:35:12.

where we washed our hands. The country is empty,

:35:13.:35:14.

millions of refugees, the destabilisation

:35:15.:35:17.

of Lebanon, of Turkey... But Libya is the next one,

:35:18.:35:19.

that will be the next part of Isis. Isis was born in Iraq and in Syria,

:35:20.:35:22.

not in Libya. They are trying to go now in Libya,

:35:23.:35:29.

but the real core of Isis If in August 2013 the English

:35:30.:35:32.

Parliament on one side and Barack Obama on the other

:35:33.:35:41.

side had not stopped the will of David Cameron

:35:42.:35:45.

to punish Bashar al-Assad, at the moment of the use

:35:46.:35:47.

of chemical weapons, There would probably not be these

:35:48.:35:49.

millions of poor people fleeing the war and the misery

:35:50.:36:04.

and the bombing of the two sides On a personal note, you were

:36:05.:36:07.

targeted by Belgian extremists. Do you understand why

:36:08.:36:22.

you became that target? You know, I became a target

:36:23.:36:25.

like so many people. When you are vocal against these

:36:26.:36:28.

people, you are inevitably a target. What they cannot stand is somebody

:36:29.:36:44.

who says that Islam as such is not evil, somebody who says

:36:45.:36:47.

there is a good Islam, that this good Islam

:36:48.:36:49.

should be reinforced. This is more intolerable for Isis

:36:50.:36:51.

probably than the one single-minded redneck who would say

:36:52.:36:58.

Islam is as itself. Donald Trump is their ally

:36:59.:37:00.

in a way, intellectually, of these

:37:01.:37:12.

people of Isis. They would never have an argument

:37:13.:37:14.

with Donald Trump as a symbol. Isis pleads for the war

:37:15.:37:17.

of civilisation. The idea of Isis is that Islam

:37:18.:37:19.

as a bloc should be against the West They try to gather all the Muslims

:37:20.:37:22.

of the world under their black flag in order to fight the West

:37:23.:37:29.

as a bloc. There are some people in the West

:37:30.:37:36.

who say exactly the same thing, that there should be

:37:37.:37:39.

a bloc against a bloc, an ideological battle between Islam

:37:40.:37:41.

as such and the West as such. The first risk is to say that jihad

:37:42.:37:44.

represents all Islam. This is horrible, false

:37:45.:37:54.

and it is a crime against the spirit But there is a symmetrical force

:37:55.:37:57.

which is to say that Islamism and jihadism has nothing

:37:58.:38:05.

to do with Islam. Jihadism with Islam,

:38:06.:38:07.

it has something to do, This is the question that has to be

:38:08.:38:22.

addressed to the widest Does it feel as if Europe

:38:23.:38:34.

is in trouble now? Do you think of it as a continent

:38:35.:38:38.

or a union in trouble? Europe might be in the

:38:39.:38:42.

process of dying today. The big mistake of my generation has

:38:43.:38:45.

been to believe that Europe was done, that it was finished,

:38:46.:38:56.

that it was inscribed, written in the sense of history

:38:57.:39:01.

and that whatever happens, Not true, there is no

:39:02.:39:04.

sense of history. And now there is clearly a collapse

:39:05.:39:08.

in Europe with Greece, with Brexit, if it happens,

:39:09.:39:17.

with the crisis of the refugees, with the borders, there

:39:18.:39:22.

is a collapse in our Europe, which would mean for European people

:39:23.:39:25.

more unemployment, more But it is a credible

:39:26.:39:27.

scenario today alas. And you see Brexit

:39:28.:39:40.

as a part of that? I think Brexit would

:39:41.:39:42.

be part of that. I am not an economist,

:39:43.:39:52.

but I know enough. I think it

:39:53.:39:54.

would not be good for British people and it would not be good for Europe

:39:55.:40:04.

and it will be one more signal for Europe as a whole

:40:05.:40:08.

of deconstruction, What would be a Europe

:40:09.:40:09.

without England? We leave you here in London,

:40:10.:40:19.

and a gesture of solidarity with the people of Brussels,

:40:20.:40:24.

as the capital's landmarks light up Good evening. The Easter weekend is

:40:25.:41:11.

looming large, but there is a change to much more unsettled conditions.

:41:12.:41:15.

It is pretty

:41:16.:41:16.