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The chamber hereby sentences you, Radovan Karadzic, to a single | :00:10. | :00:16. | |
sentence of 40 years of imprisonment. | :00:17. | :00:18. | |
Guilty of genocide in Bosnia - Radovan Karadzic is sentenced | :00:19. | :00:20. | |
Genocide. There is no other way to classify it, murdering so many | :00:21. | :00:36. | |
people. And we'll talk to the man | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
who prosecuted him in As Belgian police hunt what may be | :00:39. | :00:40. | |
a second bomber on the run, there is growing anger | :00:41. | :00:47. | |
amongst its citizens, and a sense more might | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
have been done. TRANSLATION: So there is a sadness | :00:50. | :01:00. | |
because it's serious, but also anger because I feel they didn't do what | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
was needed to protect us. COMMENTATOR: Cruyff. | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
And we remember the Dutch Master of football, Johan Cruyff. | :01:09. | :01:19. | |
Convicted of genocide, extermination, persecution, | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
deportation, hostage taking and terror, the former Bosnian Serb | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
leader Radovan Karadzic was told today he would spend the rest | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
It is hard to quantify such crimes in terms of prison days. | :01:32. | :01:42. | |
A 40 years sentence feels peculiarly light, | :01:43. | :01:44. | |
for the perpetrator of quite so much including the massacre of 8,000 | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
But today's ruling, by United Nations judges | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
at The Hague, has the feel of a landmark. | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
Mark Urban on the closing chapter of a story he's covered for more | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
than two decades, and a warning, his film does contain some graphic | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
It took more than two decades for this moment to come. | :02:01. | :02:14. | |
The chamber hereby sentences you, Radovan Karadzic, to a single | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
sentence of 40, 4-0 years of imprisonment. | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
A leader in the dock for war crimes, receiving a 40-year | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
Quite a rarity in this disordered world. | :02:25. | :02:32. | |
This woman's family were early victims of | :02:33. | :02:33. | |
At the start of the Bosnian war, both parents and | :02:34. | :02:40. | |
two uncles found themselves in Serb camps, where wholesale murder | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
Today, Karadzic was found guilty for that, but acquitted | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
on a charge of genocide relating to those actions in 1992. | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
Because there is no other way to classify, like, | :02:54. | :03:01. | |
The murder of maybe a couple of dozen people is different, | :03:02. | :03:18. | |
but when you murder hundreds upon thousands of people, | :03:19. | :03:20. | |
that is something completely different. | :03:21. | :03:21. | |
And does it serve notice, in your view, to other | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
people who might be tempted to conduct crimes against humanity | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
in the same way, that they won't get away with it? | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
I think it's incredibly important, especially | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
after there has been such a lengthy time and the fact that these men | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
had become fugitives and had gone into hiding and in his case, | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
I think because of that, it shows that | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
there are people out there that are trying to find all these | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
Karadzic was a poet, lecturer and psychiatrist, | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
who became the leader of Bosnia's Serbs. | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
From the outset, his community rejected the country's | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
breakaway from Yugoslavia, and tried to create their own reality, | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
carving out Serbian enclaves, driving away | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
other ethnicities and besieging the Bosnian government in Sarajevo. | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
I persuaded him to allow me to go behind the Serb lines right the way | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
through to their capital, and then of course, I saw | :04:30. | :04:31. | |
The truth is that I had always imagined great evil, | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
and I think he was a man who had great | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
evil, from a distorted character, inside him. | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
Great evil is visible on a man's face, but of course, it isn't. | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
After the war, Karadzic evaded arrest. | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
he earned a living as a healer before finally | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
Karadzic was charged with two counts of genocide, | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
five of crimes against humanity and four of | :05:06. | :05:07. | |
violating the customs and laws of war. | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
Today, he was found guilty on ten of those 11 counts. | :05:13. | :05:24. | |
And it was the murder of more than 7,000 | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
Bosnians following the fall of Srebrenica in 1995 that sealed | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
It was an enormous catalogue of crimes, and it's taken the court | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
In the case of Karadzic's backer, Slobodan Milosevic, | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
he died before a verdict could be reached. | :05:45. | :05:52. | |
It's an example of, frankly, a process that | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
is still, in reality, experimental, and we should learn lessons from it. | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
It is not helpful at all for victims to | :06:00. | :06:08. | |
have to wait so long to bring whatever conclusion trial verdicts | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
And it frankly doesn't dignify, really, | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
legal systems to say that it is this necessary to wait this long | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
So does the Karadzic verdict set the tone for future | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
After Karadzic was charged and a new war had broken | :06:25. | :06:36. | |
out in Kosovo, even then, Serbia's military and political | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
leaders were afraid of going to the Hague. | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
I went to see the artillery commanders the day after, | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
and the day after that I went to see Milosevic. | :06:48. | :06:49. | |
And both of them, at that stage, feared the actions of the Hague | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
tribunal more than they feared Nato bombing. | :06:54. | :06:55. | |
I remember returning and saying to prime | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
minister Blair that in my view, if he were to stop the Kosovo war, | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
bombing would be less effective than immediately indicting him | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
for the crimes that I saw committed that day. | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
The Hague process has sent a powerful signal to dictators | :07:12. | :07:13. | |
But does fear of trial also mean that a Gaddafi or an Assad | :07:14. | :07:23. | |
will cling to power, refusing exile and prolonging war? | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
of the Sudanese leader Omar al-Bashir is instructive. | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
Probably, the only reason he stood again for re-election | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
was because that guarantees him, or more or less guarantees | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
that he will not be surrendered to the Hague for trial | :07:44. | :07:45. | |
And so, this is not a wartime hanging on, | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
this is a peacetime hanging on. | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
But if it happens in a country like Sudan, where some would say | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
there is a need for things to change, the presence of the court | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
Will today's verdict be followed by similar ones | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
Well, right now, great powers, the US, Russia, | :08:07. | :08:14. | |
China and so on, retain a considerable influence over | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
which cases are actually referred to the international court and can | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
in some measure protect themselves and their allies. | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
That has led to a lot of unhappiness among smaller countries, | :08:24. | :08:25. | |
particularly in Africa, who have threatened | :08:26. | :08:27. | |
So only an optimist would say that today's verdict sets | :08:28. | :08:36. | |
The Bosnian war claimed 100,000 lives. | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
Today has been a key moment in the reckoning of guilt for that | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
tragedy, even if Karadzic, who says he will appeal, | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
and many of his community are not yet ready to face | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
This was indeed a key moment but after six years of trial and 18 | :08:54. | :09:08. | |
months of deliberation, many of the survivors and even those who gave | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
witness, did not live to see the day. | :09:12. | :09:12. | |
This evening, I spoke to Serge Brammertz, Chief Proseuctor | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
of the International Criminal Tribunal at the Hague. | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
It is true, the victims were waiting long, perhaps too long | :09:19. | :09:20. | |
It's still justice which has been done and seen to be done, | :09:21. | :09:28. | |
and I am absolutely convinced that many survivors | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
consider this a very important day for themselves, | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
allowing them to perhaps move forward and to give | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
this very difficult reconciliation a better chance of being successful. | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
Karadzic insisted on representing himself. | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
That must have been incredibly traumatic for the witnesses. | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
It was indeed the case that he represented himself. | :09:51. | :09:52. | |
Of course, he had a number of lawyers | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
working with him and supporting him, helping him. | :10:00. | :10:01. | |
But it is clear that in some cross-examinations, | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
for example, for witnesses and survivors, it was sometimes | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
a difficult situation for victims and survivors to testify. | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
On the other hand, for many of the victims, | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
it was so important for themselves and | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
their families to confront Karadzic, to confront the one, | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
now officially responsible for the crimes that were committed. | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
So for many, it was important to be able to tell the story, | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
I was in Sarajevo last year and it still feels like a frozen conflict. | :10:34. | :10:42. | |
The parliament itself breaks down into ethnic groupings. | :10:43. | :10:43. | |
that this will move to heal the country? | :10:44. | :10:50. | |
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you that what I see | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
and what we have witnessed over the last few years is far | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
from seeing the country moving forward as one nation. | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
Many of the persons convicted by this tribunal are still | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
seen as heroes in their own communities. | :11:11. | :11:12. | |
So there is a lot of work still to be done. | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
The president of the Republika Srpska, who just | :11:18. | :11:19. | |
this week named a student dormitory after Karadzic, | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
as a martyr for the Serbian people. | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
I consider it absolutely irresponsible | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
One would expect that politicians, especially in a country | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
still in transition after a difficult conflict, | :11:40. | :11:41. | |
would have a policy to unite people. | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
But what we see is unfortunately exactly the opposite, | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
using this rhetoric and trying to portray the picture of a hero. | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
If you are a leader, is the lesson "Don't do genocide", | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
"Don't get caught, don't relinquish power, | :11:59. | :12:10. | |
don't give yourself up to the Hague, | :12:11. | :12:12. | |
Do you feel the fear that wars may go on for | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
longer if they prefer to fight till the end? | :12:16. | :12:17. | |
I hope that the signal of this judgment is well. | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
Sometimes it takes long, but perhaps if somebody | :12:22. | :12:23. | |
is still in power, he cannot easily be prosecuted. | :12:24. | :12:25. | |
But at the end of the day, everybody has to confront the crimes | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
But I agree with you that if we look at the world today, | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
probably never since World War II have there been so many | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
conflicts ongoing, and unfortunately, the rule for many | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
conflicts is impunity and not accountability. | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
There may be those looking on who say you can do it when it | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
comes to the smaller countries like Bosnia and Liberia, | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
but you can't realistically imagine the day when a British Prime | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
Minister or an American president will be before you. | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
You know, international justice is functioning | :13:01. | :13:02. | |
But if there would not have been the ICTY, I don't think anybody | :13:03. | :13:13. | |
from the conflict in the former Yugoslavia | :13:14. | :13:14. | |
would have been prosecuted. | :13:15. | :13:15. | |
So I think international justice is still relatively young, | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
It is far from perfect, but there are a number | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
of encouraging signs, and I think this | :13:24. | :13:25. | |
Do you think that Bashar al-Assad | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
The conflict in Syria already today has been longer than the wars | :13:30. | :13:39. | |
in the former Yugoslavia, the number of victims being higher | :13:40. | :13:46. | |
at 250,000 than the victims during the conflict in the former | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
So I very much hope that sooner or later, there will be | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
It is a decision which has to be taken, I presume, | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
The Belgian interior and Justice Prime Minister -- ministers offered | :14:00. | :14:20. | |
to tender their resignations as a suspected | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
we will hear from our report in a moment but firstly we have heard in | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
the last few moments about a raid in Paris and another in Brussels. Very | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
sketchy details but Mark bourbon is here to do is tell us what you can. | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
A lot is going on in Europe. The Paris Raid, news of that broke, the | :14:42. | :14:50. | |
North of the City, the interior minister said that a plot has been | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
interrupted and a man arrested but he says it is not related to the | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
recent Brussels attacks. In Brussels, in the neighbourhood of | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
Maelbeek, six arrests reported tonight, so quite a bit going on, it | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
gives you a sense of how the counterterrorist service and police | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
in these countries is running hot in trying to deal with these plots. | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
This feels in stark contrast to what is happening on the political side, | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
where we have heard of these resignations from ministers who feel | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
they did not act fast enough? The embarrassing thing that emerged | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
yesterday from President Erdogan of Turkey was that this man, Ibrahim El | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
Bakraoui, was sent back from Turkey to the Netherlands in June and then | :15:36. | :15:43. | |
of course became one of the suicide bombers yesterday. What did the | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
Turks say to the Dutch? Wanted the Dutch say to the Belgians? Why, | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
having sent him back for being a suspected militant, wasn't he | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
questioned or something at the very least? A lot of wrinkles are being | :15:55. | :16:01. | |
exposed by this, and as we have seen since November, the fact that people | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
are able to move in such large numbers in the Schengen area, there | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
isn't a proper system of advanced passenger information on the | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
InterCity train services. All of these gaps in knowledge are being | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
exposed and have been exposed since Paris, particularly in Europe in | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
space, and it is a huge problem. We have heard from ministers offering | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
the resignation and it has not been accepted by the Prime Minister, but | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
we also heard this evening that two of the bombers, the brothers, were | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
on a US watchlist. Does that tell us anything? Well, a watchlist is if | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
you put your advanced passenger information, it will flag something. | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
There are normally different responses, ranging from sees this | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
person, to, please tell this security agency that he has passed | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
through your airport but take no further action. There are various | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
responses, and there are thousands of people on these watch lists. The | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
number of active militants who they would be looking at and returned | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
jihadists would be smaller than this. The real issue is if they are | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
moving in a car between Brussels and Paris, as people were last November, | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
how do you find them? They might or might not be on a list. They might | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
be using a false passport. We have seen signs recently of real alarm in | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
the counterterrorist services. We heard from Europol yesterday and | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
today about this, about the thousands of people. One suspect can | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
require dozens of security agents to have that person under 24-hour | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
surveillance. There simply are not the resources, and the space grim | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
feeling among many people in France and Belgium conducting security | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
operations that with the numbers of returned jihadists and suspected | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
members of Islamic State group sells, they just can't get on top of | :17:53. | :17:54. | |
all these plots. Thanks very much. Let's go now to the streets of | :17:55. | :18:04. | |
Brussels for this report. A minute's silence | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
to remember the dead. For some, the emotions | :18:10. | :18:11. | |
were still too much. I wanted to come because I am really | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
sad about it and I want to show my support and my love for my | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
city and all the people As well as sorrow, there is also | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
anger in some quarters that one suicide bomber had been | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
deported from Turkey last year, TRANSLATION: I think they didn't do | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
everything they could have, so I am sad because it | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
is so serious, and I am angry because I don't believe | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
they did enough to protect us. Belgium's intelligence services | :18:43. | :18:51. | |
based in the building behind me are facing a lot of tough questions | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
right now about their competence. It's not the first time they have | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
come in for criticism. After the events in Paris | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
in November, many in France were damning about Belgium's ability | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
to deal with jihadis plotting Today, both the Justice | :19:09. | :19:10. | |
and Interior Ministry TRANSLATION: I offered my | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
resignation to the Prime The Prime Minister and the inner | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
cabinet requested clearly this morning that I stay on, | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
given the current situation, that in a war situation, | :19:20. | :19:21. | |
you cannot leave the field. Here is why there is so much | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
pressure on Belgium's intelligence The man in the middle of this photo, | :19:25. | :19:26. | |
Ibrahim El Bakraoui, who blew himself up | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
at the airport, was deported from Turkey | :19:34. | :19:35. | |
as a terrorism suspect, although Belgian authorities | :19:36. | :19:37. | |
said they couldn't link His brother Khaled, who blew himself | :19:38. | :19:46. | |
up at Maelbeek Metro station, had rented a safe house used to prepare | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
for the Paris attacks and a flat Salah Abdeslam used to hide away. | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
Another suspected of being an IS Bob May go behind both the Brussels and | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
Paris attacks before reportedly blowing himself up at the airport as | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
well, was also well known to Belgian authorities. As these court papers | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
show, in the past few weeks, one suspect was being tried in absentia, | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
accused of being part of a network sending fighters to Syria. According | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
to the documents, he had joined IS but had managed to slip back into | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
Belgium. Some analysts say Belgian security services are overwhelmed. | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
Some people talk of 900 people on the watchlist by the intelligence | :20:30. | :20:37. | |
services. And we have two agencies, which altogether makes up 1000 | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
officers. The EU have almost one potential terrorist for one | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
intelligence officer. The budget of the intelligence services has not | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
only declined recently, it has declined for the past 25 years. In | :20:51. | :20:59. | |
Belgium, there has been this trend of cutting into everything that | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
relates to security, not only intelligence, but also police and | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
defence. Bowden was in some ways expecting to be targeted, but the | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
scale of what happened here on Tuesday morning was still a shock -- | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
Belgium was expecting to be targeted. It could have been even | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
deadlier. Today, there have been claims that Salah Abdeslam was | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
planning to launch an attack using automatic weapons to coincide with | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
the explosions. The ease with which he and others have been able to | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
travel around Europe is leading many to call for greater international | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
intelligence cooperation. We are dealing with individuals and a | :21:36. | :21:47. | |
threat of denying the existence of borders. They are making use of it, | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
capitalising on the lack of cooperation between the various | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
police and intelligence services and the fact that basically, outlaws | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
move faster than the law. With two suspects still on the run, the | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
intelligence services here are trying to catch the rest of this | :22:09. | :22:10. | |
debt work whilst themselves under fire. | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
So what does terror do to those of us left behind, even those who have | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
not been visiting heard? Have found yourself perhaps not taking the tube | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
in recent days or looking around you with slightly more suspicion? | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
Joining me now is Neil Norman, founder of Human Recognition Systems | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
and Deborah Del Vecchio-Scully, trauma counsellor who was with | :22:32. | :22:33. | |
Debra, I wonder if you can give us a sense, after an attack like 9/11, we | :22:34. | :22:47. | |
always feel that life will not be the same again, but did people | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
actually change their behaviour? Well, I do feel that people did feel | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
like life had changed for ever. And to some degree, people change with | :23:00. | :23:07. | |
that. But it depends on your circumstances and your exposure. In | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
today's world, with all the uncertainty that is happening in | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
Europe and Brussels and Paris, there is more of a pervasive sense of | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
fearfulness in life in general and how we go about living. But does | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
that last? If you make a pledge to yourself like, you are not going to | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
get on the subway or the tube or whatever it may be, do people stick | :23:33. | :23:40. | |
to that and if so, for how long? That is hard to predict. Those kinds | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
of behaviours are fair driven, and should things calm down and resume | :23:47. | :23:56. | |
to more, normal is an overused word, but a sense of less impending doom | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
from the number of attacks that have been happening, people might slowly | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
resume their normal activities. A lot of that depends on who they were | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
before this attack, if they have had exposure to other scary and | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
terrifying events. And just the human capacity for coping. Neil, | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
sometimes we look to technology to give us an extra front-line in | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
dealing with that terror. Do you think people are weirdly sort of | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
craving that now, paving something that does provide an extra barrier? | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
I think we are accepting the fact that technology has a role to play, | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
and we would also accept that we will have to surrender convenience, | :24:44. | :24:45. | |
something we crave a lot in the West. So if you look at what has | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
recently happened, I think it is fair to say that one of the things | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
that will have to be considered is pushing back the barriers. At the | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
moment, we only stop and check people at the ticket presentation | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
point, whereas if you go through other airports around the world, | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
like in East Africa, they tend to push the barrier out further. Where | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
would you stand on something like profiling? Is that always to be | :25:13. | :25:23. | |
rejected? It is a difficult subject. But one of the bodies within the | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
United Nations has been looking at this for a number of years and there | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
are encouraging reports to introduce some kind of profiling where you | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
have different gradings of security being applied to different threats, | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
with a degree of randomisation. So the people you assume to be safe, | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
you still randomly select them for different grades of security to put | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
them through. If you look at the profile of individuals who tend to | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
commit these sorts of terrorist acts, they do fit a particular | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
profile. It is not comfortable for us to discuss, but I think there are | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
ways and means. As I say, a United Nations body has been looking to | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
investigate this. But there is a guilt associated with profiling, | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
isn't that? Or discomfort. I absolutely feel that it is a | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
slippery slope ethnically to begin profiling. -- ethically. What about | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
the formula for dealing with atrocities? We have noticed that | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
there is almost a sense that you have the # ready or the colours of | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
the artful tower, the changing of the Avatar on social media -- the | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
colours of the Eiffel Tower. There is almost a passivity to that | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
response. I wonder if you think that is a coping mechanism or a way of | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
slipping into acceptance. Unfortunately, I think there is a | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
desensitisation. There seem to be so many violent acts, senseless | :26:56. | :27:04. | |
terrorist acts, that in essence, as a way of coping, particularly with | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
people who have been traumatised, you do slip into avoidance and | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
denial. And unfortunately, I think technology has shrunk our world. I | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
am here in Connecticut on the other side of the world, and we with the | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
American counselling Association can anticipate how others are going to | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
respond to something, because social media brings it right into our | :27:32. | :27:37. | |
homes, in real-time. Thank you both very much. | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
A packed public gallery at the Royal Courts | :27:41. | :27:42. | |
The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
was considering what happened in the London Borough | :27:47. | :27:48. | |
Dozens of their former residents had turned up to witness it. | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
That abuse occurred in Lambeth's care homes in the latter half | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
What Justice Lowell Goddard's inquiry is examining is the extent | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
of institutional failure in tackling it. | :28:01. | :28:02. | |
A few weeks ago, Newsnight examined one particular strand | :28:03. | :28:04. | |
We'll come to that in a moment, but first, Jake Morris | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
This morning's hearing heard some big claims of abuse on an industrial | :28:10. | :28:21. | |
scale, claims of institutionalised evil, claims of a reversal back to | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
the dark ages. These claims were made by the leader of this group of | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
former residents of Lambeth care homes. It is a group who now say | :28:31. | :28:38. | |
they number 600 survivors. One of the things that Lambeth has never | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
lacked over the years is inquiries. There have been numerous police | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
inquiries. Social workers have looked at various aspects of | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
Lambeth. Independent experts have been brought in. Each of these | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
inquiries has looked at a particular strand of what went wrong. None of | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
them have really burned the dots and got the overall big picture. That is | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
the challenge that faces justice Goddard and her panel here, to get | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
to the bottom of what really happened. One of the other | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
challenges they face is to have the trust of the survivors. That is not | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
a given. After today's hearing, I spoke to the leader of this group | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
and I asked him what degree of faith his members have in this inquiry. | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
I have faith in the investigation we're going to do, and I believe | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
if we can point them in the right direction, | :29:28. | :29:29. | |
this inquiry will have no option but to find the truth. | :29:30. | :29:38. | |
Newsnight was also mentioned, what did the report say? A report how in | :29:39. | :29:48. | |
1998 a detected have -- a detective was removed from his post when a man | :29:49. | :29:56. | |
wanted to approach Paul Boateng. We are told he wanted to ask him what | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
if anything he knew of a known paedophile, a man called John | :30:04. | :30:11. | |
Carroll. Today at the enquiry, Ben Emerson set out a lot of the | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
territory that will be covered and he made reference to the Newsnight | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
broadcast and I think what's clear what was in the broadcast will be | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
examined by the enquiry. He also said and I should make it clear | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
there has been no evidence presented to the enquiry of any wrongdoing by | :30:28. | :30:34. | |
Lord Boateng and in our broadcast we made that clear also, and he says he | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
did not know John Carroll. Thank you for joining us. | :30:39. | :30:40. | |
We're hurtling towards the Easter weekend and for Ireland, | :30:41. | :30:42. | |
The citizens of our closest neighbour are preparing to celebrate | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
the 100th anniversary of the Easter Rising, the rebellion | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
against the British Empire, the start of a series of events | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
which led to the country leaving the United Kingdom altogether. | :30:55. | :30:56. | |
But for some, its legacy remains a difficult one, with which Ireland | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
To know they dreamed and are dead. | :31:00. | :31:22. | |
In 1921, the poet WB Yeats published those words about the most important | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
The Easter Rising of 1916, Ireland's foundational moment. | :31:26. | :31:39. | |
In 1916, with the First World War raging, a ragtag group of rebels | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
and revolutionaries saw an opportunity to strike | :31:43. | :31:44. | |
Ireland had yet again been promised home-rule, | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
but for these men, that simply wasn't enough. | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
With England distracted, with the war on the continent, | :31:52. | :31:53. | |
the First World War, it was seen as an opportune moment, | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
at some point during the course of that horrific war, | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
in which 200,000 Irish men are enlisted into the British Army, | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
On Easter Monday, nationalists seized the General Post Office. | :32:06. | :32:15. | |
Patrick Pearse, one of the rebel leaders, pasted copies | :32:16. | :32:17. | |
of the Irish Proclamation on its doors. | :32:18. | :32:29. | |
The British government quickly dispatched thousands of soldiers. | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
They thought they were in France, having been training for the war. | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
What any British soldier in 1916 would do, they built trenches | :32:39. | :32:46. | |
After shelling from a Royal Navy battleship, Dublin was in flames. | :32:47. | :32:55. | |
By Saturday, the rising had been crushed. | :32:56. | :32:57. | |
In the following days the British government ordered the execution | :32:58. | :32:59. | |
of 15 of its leaders by firing squad. | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
James Connolly's injuries in the battle were so grevious | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
Thousands more including 77 women were arrested. | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
The Irish public opinion initially was very hostile to the rising | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
but that start to change when the news of the executions | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
The way the executions were carried out was extraordinarily hamfisted. | :33:22. | :33:35. | |
It was under the Defence of the Realm Act, very strict | :33:36. | :33:37. | |
It has been likened by one observer, the Irish public were watching | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
the slow seeping blood from behind the prison door. | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
1916 is about contested memory and history. | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
Thousands of Irish men died at the Battle of the Somme, | :33:48. | :33:58. | |
only months later, fighting for the British Empire, | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
commemorated here at the Irish War Memorial. | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
The truth is, 1916 helped create and cement the divisions we've known | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
Those who fought against the Imperial British, | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
or who fought the Germans on continental Europe? | :34:14. | :34:15. | |
That question continues to divide Ireland. | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
Those who rebelled against the state in 1916 were a tiny minority, | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
they didn't command the support even fellow nationalists. | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
There's a large degree of antipathy towards them in the unionist | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
community because the rebellion took place at a time when men | :34:36. | :34:38. | |
from all over Ireland, Unionist and nationalist, | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
were fighting alongside each other and dying in the mud of Flanders. | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
All of us, as we try to be reconciled to living together, | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
because we will live together, have to accept that we are | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
We mightn't agree with the other narrative, but it is the sum total | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
There are those who will commemorate the battle of the Somme, | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
We have to respect the memory of those who fell. | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
But that was an imperialist adventure. | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
President de Valera, the sole surviving commandant | :35:13. | :35:14. | |
With him, Premier Sean Lemass at the celebrations in Dublin | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
outside the General Post Office where the first shots were fired. | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
The Rising's 50th anniversary in 1966 was celebrated | :35:27. | :35:28. | |
Today's perspective of the rising is more nuanced. | :35:29. | :35:37. | |
The fact that it caused carnage, that the majority of people killed | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
in the rising were civilians caught in the wrong place | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
The fact that although this was very rarely referred to, | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
the fact that this set the seal on Ulster's separatism. | :35:51. | :35:52. | |
Independence wouldn't have happened when it did without the rising, | :35:53. | :36:05. | |
but then, perhaps, the violence to come might not have either. | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
It began a war of independence, and the legacy of that war | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
of independence includes the partition of Ireland. | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
It includes the question of those who felt they were attending | :36:15. | :36:16. | |
to unfinished business at a much later stage. | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
Because obviously a unified Irish Republic was not achieved | :36:21. | :36:22. | |
And you have the role of violence in the creation of both states, | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
Northern Ireland, and ultimately what became known as the Republic. | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
They are very troubling questions that are very difficult | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
Someone once said that Britain always looked at Ireland | :36:36. | :36:43. | |
through the wrong end of a telescope, so never | :36:44. | :36:45. | |
Now Ireland is turning deep telescope onto itself | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
On this 100th anniversary it is seeing them anew. | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
And Connolly and Pearse | :36:56. | :37:11. | |
Are changed, changed utterly: | :37:12. | :37:19. | |
A terrible beauty is born. | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
Actress and Director, Fiona Shaw, there, reading WB Yeats, | :37:26. | :37:27. | |
They talk of him as the man who reinvented football. | :37:28. | :37:37. | |
The Dutch Master Johan Cruyff died today, a player and then a manager | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
who gave a whole new philosophy to football and, you might even say, | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
gave us the modern, inimitable Barcelona as it plays today. | :37:45. | :37:46. | |
Just as importantly, he gave us the legacy | :37:47. | :37:48. | |
We'll come to that in a moment, with some trepidation. | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
First, one of his biggest fans, our very own Stephen Smith. | :37:54. | :38:05. | |
And they were the best side around by a | :38:06. | :38:14. | |
He invented this Cruyff turn, where he seemed | :38:15. | :38:22. | |
to be managing to play the ball back through his own feet. | :38:23. | :38:32. | |
The little turn and the back flick, and completely | :38:33. | :38:39. | |
wrongfooting the fullback on that occasion. | :38:40. | :38:41. | |
The style of his football, and the grace. | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
Cruyff was born a few hundred yards from the Ajax stadium, | :38:48. | :38:49. | |
and his dad was a grocer who supplied Ajax with | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
His mother used to clean the changing rooms at Ajax to make | :38:53. | :38:59. | |
money, so they really lived at Ajax and | :39:00. | :39:01. | |
from the age of four used to hang around and everyone knew this | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
toddler who was always hanging around, kicking a ball. | :39:05. | :39:06. | |
It really was his club in a way that is | :39:07. | :39:09. | |
The main thing for everybody and especially for a | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
sportsman is, you must enjoy yourself, otherwise you will never | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
enjoy it and you will never be good. | :39:17. | :39:23. | |
He said that people who try to score these days hit the ball | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
He said, I could hit it with the side of the foot, | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
Therefore, I am six times better than | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
Not everybody liked him, because he could be arrogant | :39:34. | :39:46. | |
and you would struggle to get him to change | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
The first time I met him, when he was with Barcelona, | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
he came into the room smoking, and took | :39:55. | :39:56. | |
a couple of puffs and put it down on the ashtray and said, | :39:57. | :40:04. | |
"if Michels comes in, the manager," Rinus Michels, | :40:05. | :40:06. | |
Those were the first words he said to me. | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
Let me show you an advert you made a few years ago, | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
encouraging people to kick the habit. | :40:13. | :40:13. | |
How about that for control, with a cigarette box? | :40:14. | :40:39. | |
I was lucky enough to work for him | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
at Barcelona for a year, and he was the best player | :40:44. | :40:45. | |
in training most of the time, even though he was obviously | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
way past his sell-by date in terms of playing. | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
He was extraordinary as a coach. | :40:53. | :40:53. | |
even though, to be honest, | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
there were only two foreign players allowed. | :40:57. | :40:58. | |
And he clearly didn't want me there, he wanted me out. | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
You can't do anything more than be the best of your era, | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
Unlike Maradona and Pele, he never won a World Cup, | :41:09. | :41:16. | |
but he didn't think that was important. | :41:17. | :41:18. | |
What mattered was the process of the game. | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
He said in 1974, we lost the final to Germany, | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
but really, we won the World Cup, because everyone talked | :41:26. | :41:27. | |
about our football and not Germany's football. | :41:28. | :41:37. | |
That's pretty much always got time for. How can we not leave you | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
without recreating the signature move from man himself? I'm joined by | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
Danny McGee and Charlotte Lay, experts in what you may call the | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
dark arts of football. I know that Cruyff meant a lot to your family, | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
Charlotte. He was my dad's hero, so much so that my grandad bought my | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
dad a colour TV for the 74 World Cup just so he could watch Cruyff. So he | :42:06. | :42:15. | |
could see the infamous Cruyff turn. I'm going to show you, you pretend | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
to shoot and then you go the opposite way, like that. It is | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
effective but it isn't easy! Are you going to defend? I'm not going to | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
take my off the ball. The ten should come across, and then turn the other | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
way with the inside of your and motorway. Would you like to have a | :42:34. | :42:41. | |
go? -- motor away. No, I wouldn't! I am left footed. | :42:42. | :42:51. | |
The weather is turning much more changeable over the next couple of | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
days after the recent settled weather. Good Friday will | :42:58. | :42:58. |