29/03/2016 Newsnight


29/03/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis. With live reaction as Tata announces it will sell its entire UK steel business.


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Transcript


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Shocking news for the steel industry tonight.

:00:00.:00:00.

Rather than invest new money, as some had hoped, Tata Steel

:00:07.:00:09.

reportedly wants to sell its UK operations.

:00:10.:00:15.

In Port Talbot, the news is just sinking in.

:00:16.:00:17.

We'll ask what future steel has in Britain.

:00:18.:00:23.

Is it time to take the propaganda seriously?

:00:24.:00:35.

We look at the evidence that North Korea is further down

:00:36.:00:38.

the nuclear path than we thought - a bigger threat than we feared.

:00:39.:00:44.

Harvey Proctor on his ordeal at the hands of the Met Police

:00:45.:00:59.

Is there any good reason that in a rich country

:01:00.:01:13.

Bitterly sad news breaking tonight for workers in the British

:01:14.:01:27.

It's not official, but it appears that Tata Steel -

:01:28.:01:32.

the company that is the successor to the old British Steel Corporation,

:01:33.:01:36.

which then became Corus - is said to want to sell

:01:37.:01:39.

The decision was reported out of a make or break meeting in Mumbai

:01:40.:01:46.

and among the assets being sold, the Port Talbot plant,

:01:47.:01:48.

which plays such an important part in the economic life in south

:01:49.:01:52.

Thousands more are employed elsewhere in the country, of course.

:01:53.:01:59.

The fear is that if no one wants to buy the assets,

:02:00.:02:01.

and they are losing hundreds of millions of pounds a year,

:02:02.:02:04.

Stephen Kinnock is the MP for the area and as with the delegation in

:02:05.:02:17.

Mumbai and has been given his reaction. The board of Tata Steel is

:02:18.:02:24.

not going to back the turnaround plan. That was presented to them.

:02:25.:02:31.

And they have asked their European board to look at all of the options

:02:32.:02:37.

for the future of the business and we then await the outcome of that.

:02:38.:02:44.

Clearly, one of those options is to look at looking for a buyer, an

:02:45.:02:46.

alternative buyer for the business. Simon Jack is the BBC's business

:02:47.:02:49.

editor and he joins me now Let us go through the best and worst

:02:50.:03:02.

scenarios, the best case tonight, what is the most optimistic it can

:03:03.:03:08.

be? The news that came out of Mumbai this evening in the last hour, we

:03:09.:03:14.

had this flurry of briefings and the deal they hoped to get done, but

:03:15.:03:19.

turnaround plan that would have seen Tata investing extra money as

:03:20.:03:23.

turning hundreds of millions of losses every year into a profit

:03:24.:03:27.

within two years, that was rejected. That is undoubtedly a big set back

:03:28.:03:34.

and the options were talking about is the sale of all the remaining

:03:35.:03:38.

businesses here the UK, they are already selling some of them but the

:03:39.:03:43.

long products business that Port Talbot performs the hub of would-be

:03:44.:03:48.

opera sale but whoever would want to buy a plant that is losing ?1

:03:49.:03:54.

million every day? When I spoke to the company they did not confirm it

:03:55.:03:58.

was up for sale but they did steer me in the direction of some of the

:03:59.:04:02.

other was Mrs which has shown an interest in the steel industry in

:04:03.:04:06.

this country, businesses like the liberty group, who have been in the

:04:07.:04:13.

process of buying some from the owners and grey ball capital, in the

:04:14.:04:19.

process of buying some of the business in Scunthorpe. They floated

:04:20.:04:22.

some of those names and there might well be a process and there is some

:04:23.:04:28.

scepticism. Liberty, whether they would want to take on something like

:04:29.:04:31.

this, but there must be some glimmer of hope but this is not the answer

:04:32.:04:37.

that unions and management wanted. The nightmare scenario is that

:04:38.:04:41.

companies like that might say they will have a little bit here and

:04:42.:04:45.

there but they do not want the bulk of the business, it is losing money,

:04:46.:04:52.

and Tata cannot make this work and if nobody buys this, we'll Tata tell

:04:53.:04:59.

us what the plan is? To shut it down or what? They will not tell us what

:05:00.:05:08.

the other planners. -- plan is. It is impossible to imagine that

:05:09.:05:11.

somebody could take over the business losing as much money as

:05:12.:05:13.

this and turn it around without major structural changes and job

:05:14.:05:18.

losses so there is uncertainty for the thousands of workers, many of

:05:19.:05:23.

whom whose jobs are still at risk and the government is making noises

:05:24.:05:26.

about looking at viable options but there does not seem to be that many

:05:27.:05:31.

viable options on the table, this sale is pretty much the last chance

:05:32.:05:38.

saloon. Simon, thank you. We will speak to somebody who works at the

:05:39.:05:42.

steel Talbot -- steel plant in Port Talbot. First, Angela Eagle. Simon

:05:43.:05:49.

is looking at the options, can you think of any the government at this

:05:50.:05:56.

point can look at? The steel industry is cyclical and at the

:05:57.:06:01.

moment we're in the middle of a perfect storm. Clearly, you have to

:06:02.:06:06.

try about what you can do about sheltering assets in the industry

:06:07.:06:11.

until this storm passes so you can keep a capacity as a country to keep

:06:12.:06:17.

creating and making your own steel, which is fundamental to the

:06:18.:06:20.

manufacturing industry. 20,000 people are directly employed in UK

:06:21.:06:24.

steel at the moment and many more are in the supply industries and the

:06:25.:06:29.

government should be pulling out all of the stops to make certain that we

:06:30.:06:35.

can preserve our capacity to make steel. One of the options is the

:06:36.:06:40.

government was simply by the industry for some notional amount,

:06:41.:06:47.

from Tata Steel, pick up the assets and become the Steward of those

:06:48.:06:51.

assets until the point at which it can sell them, effectively

:06:52.:07:01.

nationalisation. This has been done in other instances before and we do

:07:02.:07:08.

know that the assets you have in a steel-making plant have to be

:07:09.:07:12.

properly looked after or they will be lost forever, which is what we

:07:13.:07:16.

saw with the government letting the Redcar blast furnace be destroyed by

:07:17.:07:23.

inaction and it would be vandalism if they do that in this case. I do

:07:24.:07:30.

not want to get into Brexit at this point but this may come to bear on

:07:31.:07:34.

this but if the government did pick up this company and hold the assets,

:07:35.:07:41.

do their run foul of EU state aid regulations? There are ways in which

:07:42.:07:48.

you can ensure that you protect assets in this way and can negotiate

:07:49.:07:54.

with the -- with the EU and it is a bit much for those using... And all

:07:55.:08:03.

of the distress in the community is wondering what will happen to their

:08:04.:08:10.

future, in Port Talbot or Rotherham or South Yorkshire or parts of

:08:11.:08:16.

Scotland. We have to try to get the government to actually deliver on

:08:17.:08:22.

assertions from the Prime Minister that they want to preserve our

:08:23.:08:27.

capacity to make steel in this country and if not, we will see this

:08:28.:08:32.

Tonight at the Games said that the ant hypocrisy. -- this tea and

:08:33.:08:39.

sympathy. You do believe that steel has potential in this country? Yes,

:08:40.:08:46.

it is a foundation industry, we're on the cusp of huge investment in

:08:47.:08:53.

our own infrastructure and steel is a strategic industry for defence

:08:54.:08:56.

purposes and energy and every look at what is happening with you clear

:08:57.:09:02.

building, we have to preserve that and it will pay for itself in the

:09:03.:09:03.

end. Thank you. Joining me now from Port Talbot

:09:04.:09:07.

is Tony Taylor, who worked at the steel plant there for 44

:09:08.:09:10.

years and is now a councillor. What is your reaction to this news?

:09:11.:09:20.

It is unofficial but what is your reaction? I think some partial shock

:09:21.:09:31.

because we did not expect this today, we thought that Tata would

:09:32.:09:37.

get behind us and support the rescue plan and keep the faith at Port

:09:38.:09:42.

Talbot. Tata Steel have been marvellous players and have invested

:09:43.:09:45.

a lot of money in this plant and they have come to the end of their

:09:46.:09:48.

patients but just a little longer would have kept us in good stead and

:09:49.:09:52.

we hopefully could have kept this plant open for future generations. I

:09:53.:09:58.

am not saying we cannot do this, it could be a viable plan to some time

:09:59.:10:05.

in the future. Tony, who do you blame for the difficulties in the

:10:06.:10:10.

British steel industry, and they are not unique to Britain. But very

:10:11.:10:18.

intense difficulties in the UK? You have to look at the dumping of

:10:19.:10:22.

Chinese steel. They have been producing hundreds of millions of

:10:23.:10:28.

tonnes and virtually giving it away. We are unable to withstand that

:10:29.:10:36.

because we have been protecting the industry, protecting livelihoods and

:10:37.:10:41.

local jobs and that is one part of this. The heavy energy crisis, the

:10:42.:10:47.

plant behind me, it uses the same amount of energy as a city the size

:10:48.:10:51.

of Bristol or Cardiff, you can imagine the costs to pay for all of

:10:52.:10:57.

that so we have not been helped by the local government, the Welsh

:10:58.:11:02.

Government, the national government... Tony, thank you.

:11:03.:11:08.

What North Korea wants is a small nuclear device that can fit on a big

:11:09.:11:11.

missile - a ballistic missile that can exit the atmosphere,

:11:12.:11:15.

and then successfully re-enter and detonate its cargo almost

:11:16.:11:17.

If it has that, no-one will make fun of North Korea

:11:18.:11:25.

So how close is the country, to getting that technology?

:11:26.:11:29.

We all know there have been nuclear tests and the claim of a hydrogen

:11:30.:11:33.

bomb, but not the holy grail of a small device

:11:34.:11:36.

Now, Newsnight has had first sight of a new account of the North Korean

:11:37.:11:42.

nuclear programme from the respected defence analysts at IHS Jane's.

:11:43.:11:44.

They think it's possible the North does have a miniature device

:11:45.:11:46.

Newsnight has been told that North Korea is closer than thought

:11:47.:11:59.

to creating a nuclear device small enough to fit

:12:00.:12:02.

in to an intercontinental ballistic missile capable of hitting the US.

:12:03.:12:07.

New images and analysis obtained by Newsnight suggest that

:12:08.:12:11.

North Korea's nuclear programme may already have

:12:12.:12:13.

In recent weeks there has been a huge amount of rhetoric coming

:12:14.:12:21.

from North Korea, including a threat to directly attack

:12:22.:12:23.

To do that they would need to use an intercontinental ballistic

:12:24.:12:28.

missile, armed with a nuclear warhead.

:12:29.:12:30.

And there are huge challenges to that.

:12:31.:12:34.

But information given to Newsnight exclusively suggests they may be

:12:35.:12:37.

Analysts have carried out computer modelling based on this news report

:12:38.:12:46.

of Kim Jong-un visiting what is supposed to be a missile

:12:47.:12:48.

These images probably show mock-ups but the defence intelligence company

:12:49.:12:55.

IHS Jane's says there are sufficient details in the background to assess

:12:56.:12:59.

The crucial issues are, can they militarise a nuclear

:13:00.:13:10.

warhead and can they design what is known as a re-entry vehicle?

:13:11.:13:13.

The part of the missile that comes back into the atmosphere before

:13:14.:13:16.

If that is not designed correctly, it would simply burn up.

:13:17.:13:21.

I spoke to Rob Monks, the IHS Jane's expert who has

:13:22.:13:23.

collated the work of analysts based in the US.

:13:24.:13:29.

They have now done the computer modelling to calculate the static

:13:30.:13:32.

margin, which is basically the aerodynamic stability.

:13:33.:13:33.

And from that they have concluded that the North Koreans have both

:13:34.:13:39.

reduced the size and weight of a nuclear explosive device

:13:40.:13:44.

sufficiently to fit it inside a re-entry vehicle.

:13:45.:13:46.

And indeed that the design of the re-entry vehicle itself

:13:47.:13:50.

according to the computer modelling would appear to be viable.

:13:51.:13:52.

The second strand of evidence comes from satellites,

:13:53.:13:55.

radar images showing new roads and earthworks which could indicate

:13:56.:13:57.

We have used radar imagery for the first time to have a look

:13:58.:14:06.

Associated with the North Korean nuclear programme.

:14:07.:14:08.

And that appears to suggest there has actually been increased

:14:09.:14:11.

activity where media reporting suggested diminished activity.

:14:12.:14:15.

The third strand of evidence is a satellite image of a plutonium

:14:16.:14:18.

reprocessing facility that shows increased activity over

:14:19.:14:21.

North Korea is determined to keep working on this, so the effort

:14:22.:14:27.

And it provides some measure of how far they may be getting to the final

:14:28.:14:38.

goal of an intercontinental missile armed

:14:39.:14:39.

And so it would suggest they are getting closer to that.

:14:40.:14:47.

But North Korea already has the capability to mount a nuclear

:14:48.:14:49.

So the instability of their current leader may be the real threat

:14:50.:14:56.

I spoke to one source tonight who has got close knowledge

:14:57.:15:04.

of inside thinking at MI6 and he said that beyond these

:15:05.:15:07.

technical issues, the key factor is the assessment of

:15:08.:15:09.

Is he crazy enough to launch an unprovoked attack?

:15:10.:15:16.

The new images and analysis from IHS Jane's suggests North Korea

:15:17.:15:19.

is getting closer to its ambition of a nuclear armed intercontinental

:15:20.:15:23.

Probably some way off that yet, my intelligence source tells me

:15:24.:15:32.

that the role of China in restraining the leader

:15:33.:15:34.

The intent and increasingly the capability, it seems, is there.

:15:35.:15:43.

Joining me now is John Everard, former British ambassador to North

:15:44.:15:46.

And from New York, Richard Haass, former director of policy planning

:15:47.:15:49.

for the State Department, and currently president

:15:50.:15:51.

To start with a direct question. Who would you do no sleepover, Isis or

:15:52.:16:08.

North Korea at this point? At this point it is North Korea and over the

:16:09.:16:12.

next few years certainly that concern will grow. It is not geared

:16:13.:16:17.

to me that the US will find it tolerable to live in a situation

:16:18.:16:21.

where North Korea as you discussed, can put a small nuclear warhead on

:16:22.:16:26.

ballistic missile but could reach the western part of the US. Also

:16:27.:16:31.

concern that Isis and North Korea could do something together, how do

:16:32.:16:35.

we know North Korea under some circumstances would not make nuclear

:16:36.:16:41.

material available to a group like Isis for a considerable amount of

:16:42.:16:44.

currency. Again raises fundamental questions about whether this could

:16:45.:16:48.

or should all would be rather a tolerable to the next American

:16:49.:16:53.

president. Kim Jong-un is not the normal leader. Do you think he would

:16:54.:16:59.

ever contemplate using a nuclear weapon? I do. I think there is an

:17:00.:17:05.

assumption that seems to be growing but North Korea would never actually

:17:06.:17:08.

use its nuclear weapons for fear of the devastating counterattack. I

:17:09.:17:12.

think that assumption is dangerous. The North Koreans have made quite a

:17:13.:17:16.

few statements about the circumstances in which they would

:17:17.:17:18.

use their nuclear weapons. Which amount to what you might call a hair

:17:19.:17:23.

trigger policy. That they know they face of all the superiority by US

:17:24.:17:32.

allies and they say if provoked they would use nuclear weapon. That is

:17:33.:17:37.

very scary, basically they have got nuclear weapons and may get to the

:17:38.:17:43.

small nuclear device on the ballistic missile. It is scary,

:17:44.:17:47.

probably better not yet a weapon they can deliver over a long

:17:48.:17:51.

distance at their moving swiftly in that direction. Do you agree that

:17:52.:17:56.

they would contemplate using them because presumably they are the most

:17:57.:17:59.

likely user of a nuclear weapon on the planet at the moment. The answer

:18:00.:18:04.

is we do not know. Why would we want to run the risk question mark this

:18:05.:18:10.

country has committed slow motion genocide against its own people so

:18:11.:18:13.

it is quite possible the threat of retaliation does not discourage them

:18:14.:18:17.

or deter them. They are as bellicose and as armed regime that exists in

:18:18.:18:23.

the world so it is not obvious to me while we would want to run the risk.

:18:24.:18:26.

And I look at China, at South Korea and Japan, at my own country the US,

:18:27.:18:31.

we all allowed this situation to drift. These negotiations have done

:18:32.:18:36.

little except to give North Korea time to make the advances you have

:18:37.:18:41.

just discussed. And I do think at some point sooner rather than later

:18:42.:18:45.

the policy question will arise, are we prepared to live with this risk

:18:46.:18:50.

and this uncertainty or would it be better to do something about it.

:18:51.:18:58.

Then you put economic pressure on North Korea or contemplate some kind

:18:59.:19:04.

of military strike, be it a preventative military attack or if

:19:05.:19:08.

we ever get intelligence that North Korea for example has taken some

:19:09.:19:11.

missiles and seems to be leading them for launch, that we would

:19:12.:19:16.

launch ourselves. These are all worrisome scenarios. Why would

:19:17.:19:20.

anyone want to trust the judgment of the leadership of North Korea? What

:19:21.:19:26.

to think of the analysis? Most of it I agree with. It is important to

:19:27.:19:30.

understand, when you talk about trusting the judgment of the leader

:19:31.:19:33.

of North Korea, these people are not crazy. They calculate carefully but

:19:34.:19:37.

they play a different set of rules to the rest of us. But then the

:19:38.:19:42.

dignity of the regime is supreme. And we cannot be sure they're not

:19:43.:19:47.

prepared to risk nuclear war in defence of what they believe,

:19:48.:19:54.

however strange it may seem to us. We think there will be a big

:19:55.:19:58.

congress in North Korea in the month of May, the coronation of Kim

:19:59.:20:06.

Jong-un. Up until then they cannot afford to show weakness and we can

:20:07.:20:09.

expect to see more provocations, more missile launchers and more

:20:10.:20:11.

difficult actions by North Korea in that time. Worrisome conversation.

:20:12.:20:14.

Thank you both. Having heartily showered our faces

:20:15.:20:17.

in eggs last year, you might think we'd run a million miles

:20:18.:20:20.

from opinion polls in the run up But hey, we just

:20:21.:20:23.

can't help ourselves. So let's think about the referendum

:20:24.:20:25.

polls for the next few minutes, because there is a rather

:20:26.:20:28.

interesting feature of them. The phone polls indicate the Remain

:20:29.:20:30.

side is in the lead, the internet

:20:31.:20:33.

polls make it too close to call. If you want to predict the result,

:20:34.:20:42.

it could all hinge on which of those Our Policy Editor Chris Cook has had

:20:43.:20:46.

an exclusive look at a piece of work by Populus, a pollster,

:20:47.:20:52.

and Matt Singh, an analyst who - almost uniquely - called the last

:20:53.:20:55.

general election correctly. Pollsters do not make money from

:20:56.:21:05.

politics but it is where their biggest problems come from. In 2015,

:21:06.:21:12.

1982, 1970. But a new report out tonight Casa big question on how the

:21:13.:21:17.

industry built samples for opinion polls.

:21:18.:21:24.

This has become a pressing issue because of the European referendum.

:21:25.:21:28.

Pollsters have got to get into our homes, into our heads and work out

:21:29.:21:33.

what we're inking about this rather unusual question. They have got a

:21:34.:21:37.

mystery to solve. When they poll people online they seem to get one

:21:38.:21:40.

set of answers from British people and when they pull them by telephone

:21:41.:21:47.

they seem to be getting another. Populous work for the Conservatives

:21:48.:21:51.

and the Leave campaign and they commissioned an outside analysts to

:21:52.:21:55.

help them work out what was going on.

:21:56.:21:55.

Now as part of this research Populus conducted a number of polls.

:21:56.:21:58.

For example they did what you might call

:21:59.:22:00.

That found that Leave was six points ahead.

:22:01.:22:03.

They also did what you might call the classic telephone poll

:22:04.:22:06.

and that found that Remain was 11 points ahead.

:22:07.:22:09.

So a massive 16 percentage points gap that gives different

:22:10.:22:12.

The report works out things by asking the same question to the two

:22:13.:22:26.

routes and comparing the answers and back in fact -- by comparison to the

:22:27.:22:29.

British election study, a unique bowl quite unlike any other full

:22:30.:22:33.

stop high quality face-to-face samples of the best we have in

:22:34.:22:36.

survey research for two main reasons. One example from postcode

:22:37.:22:42.

address files and randomly dealt within households so pretty much

:22:43.:22:44.

everyone has the chance to be included in the sample. Then they

:22:45.:22:51.

also make extra effort to do with beaded call-backs if people are out

:22:52.:22:54.

or try to persuade them to participate and get response rates

:22:55.:22:59.

which are quite high. The independent researcher on the

:23:00.:23:02.

project was Matt sing, the analyst behind number cruncher policies. It

:23:03.:23:08.

finds that the importance of online polls offer I do not know optional

:23:09.:23:11.

front whereas the telephone polls do not. A section of voters if prompted

:23:12.:23:17.

with a do not know optional, they will tend to say do not know. In

:23:18.:23:20.

reality they do not seem to be undecided because if they are not

:23:21.:23:24.

wanted with the do not know optional, they go but heavily

:23:25.:23:30.

towards Leave. So from that we take that the effect of adding a do not

:23:31.:23:33.

know optional on the online poll that is not there on the ballot

:23:34.:23:36.

paper tends to increase the level of do not know heavily at the expense

:23:37.:23:41.

of Remain. That explains around one third of the gap between telephone

:23:42.:23:44.

and online polls. Now a major issue identified

:23:45.:23:46.

by this research is with That is how pollsters

:23:47.:23:48.

select respondents and Now if we go back to that gold

:23:49.:23:51.

standard British elections studies survey that we mentioned earlier,

:23:52.:23:55.

we find around 32% of British people think racial equality has

:23:56.:23:58.

not gone far enough. And if we ask people the same

:23:59.:24:01.

question in an online poll, If we asked them on the phone poll,

:24:02.:24:04.

around 40% of people think that. So you can see from those answers

:24:05.:24:11.

that phone polls are a bit more liberal, if you like,

:24:12.:24:14.

than the national average and online polls are a bit more

:24:15.:24:16.

socially conservative. When you adjust the samples so that

:24:17.:24:30.

answers to these kind of questions matched the British election survey,

:24:31.:24:33.

half of the gap between online polls and telephone poles disappears.

:24:34.:24:35.

So we have a 16 percentage point gap between the two sorts of polls

:24:36.:24:38.

First of all, the different treatment of don't knows,

:24:39.:24:43.

that adds around five percentage points to the gap.

:24:44.:24:47.

The fact there are too many conservatives in the samples built

:24:48.:24:49.

by online pollsters, that adds around three percentage

:24:50.:24:51.

The fact there are too many liberals in the samples built

:24:52.:24:56.

by phone pollsters, that adds around five percentage points to the gap.

:24:57.:25:00.

There are still three percentage points we cannot account

:25:01.:25:03.

for but you can see from this, this research indicates

:25:04.:25:05.

that the right answer as far as we can tell might be a bit closer

:25:06.:25:13.

to the phone pollsters than it is to the online pollsters.

:25:14.:25:17.

It appears that the online polls are too much towards Leave and telephone

:25:18.:25:26.

1's a bit too much towards Remain. From the work we have done it

:25:27.:25:28.

appears that the truth is probably between the two but closer to what

:25:29.:25:33.

the telephone ones are saying. To put numbers on it we would say about

:25:34.:25:40.

two thirds of the way towards phone opinion polls. We will know who is

:25:41.:25:44.

right until the votes are counted and China will determine much of

:25:45.:25:48.

that. In the short term we can say things look a bit better for Remain

:25:49.:25:51.

then a crude average of the polls would suggest. And in the medium

:25:52.:25:55.

term the pollsters need to start thinking about how they will

:25:56.:25:56.

samples. Harvey Proctor - former Tory MP -

:25:57.:25:59.

has had a traumatic 18 months. He was investigated

:26:00.:26:02.

in Operation Midland, never charged or arrested

:26:03.:26:04.

but investigated for murder, torture and historic sexual

:26:05.:26:07.

abuse of young boys. All on the basis of the testimony

:26:08.:26:11.

of one man, known as Nick. Well, Operation Midland has closed,

:26:12.:26:14.

Mr Proctor has no case to answer and has written a book of his life

:26:15.:26:19.

and his recent experience. He joins me now. You have placed a

:26:20.:26:33.

copy of the book on the table. We spoke about this case in August

:26:34.:26:37.

before you were told there was to be no charge. At the time you called it

:26:38.:26:42.

a homosexual witchhunt. I wonder now it is past, do you still see it that

:26:43.:26:48.

way? The following day, someone contacted my solicitor and

:26:49.:26:54.

reinforced what I had said on your programme. It is in the book, I will

:26:55.:27:00.

not go into details tonight, but I do think that certain elements of

:27:01.:27:05.

the Metropolitan Police are homophobic. They have been other

:27:06.:27:10.

people obviously who have been through the mill but you have been

:27:11.:27:14.

through. Who are not gay and have not, no one has ever suggested they

:27:15.:27:18.

are and I wonder whether a better or different way to look at it is just

:27:19.:27:22.

that the police did not use to take these things seriously and now have

:27:23.:27:26.

thought, by goodness, we've got to take these things more seriously and

:27:27.:27:29.

perhaps gone off in the other direction. The pendulum has swung

:27:30.:27:34.

because of the nature of those involved in the investigation. Again

:27:35.:27:44.

I cover that in the book. What you mean, the pendulum has swung, you

:27:45.:27:49.

think it has too far? I think quite a number of people think it has

:27:50.:27:52.

swung too far. I believe that the best interests of the genuine victim

:27:53.:28:01.

and survivor of child sexual abuse is to restore it to a better balance

:28:02.:28:08.

between suspect and complainant. You do not disagree when police say we

:28:09.:28:14.

have got to follow what allegations? Of course the police have got to

:28:15.:28:17.

investigate, it is the manner of the investigation. The calling of the

:28:18.:28:23.

witness, credible and true, before they had even got any corroboration,

:28:24.:28:29.

any other evidence whatsoever and before they had spoken to me or the

:28:30.:28:35.

other people who were alive. You put a lot of attention on the police.

:28:36.:28:38.

Just tell me about your reaction if you like to the rest of society at

:28:39.:28:45.

the media, the way these things are covered, the public and their view

:28:46.:28:51.

of these issues. Do you have, the politicians, who has stood and

:28:52.:28:56.

watched people like you in the dock for over a year. I just wonder if

:28:57.:29:00.

you think it is a bigger thing than just the police. The police are the

:29:01.:29:06.

driving force in this. But certain politicians have put pressure on

:29:07.:29:11.

certain ministers, namely the Home Secretary, to establish for example

:29:12.:29:17.

a so-called independent enquiry to child sexual abuse. This enquiry is

:29:18.:29:23.

one of two enquiries that the Metropolitan Police have suggested

:29:24.:29:25.

should investigate their own misdeeds. Quite strongly. The

:29:26.:29:32.

Goddard enquiry, the big overarching went into all allegations, came into

:29:33.:29:37.

law. You said you do not want to be part of that. It has become an

:29:38.:29:41.

industry and it is not the right formula for investing --

:29:42.:29:47.

investigating Operation Midland. It was set up to do something

:29:48.:29:51.

different. Not to investigate the police and their ways of getting it

:29:52.:29:54.

wrong this last 18 months. I would separate those things and I

:29:55.:30:05.

believe the enquiry has become an industry and an ongoing enquiry that

:30:06.:30:11.

was supposed to end in six years but it will never end, it will go on. I

:30:12.:30:16.

am interested in this because when you talk to older people, they will

:30:17.:30:21.

often have tales of a teacher or a neighbour or somebody who did to

:30:22.:30:26.

them when they were young, things that would be called sexual assault.

:30:27.:30:31.

Fondling and groping, not murder or torture or rape, but lots of people

:30:32.:30:38.

have those stories. What is society meant to do with that history? That

:30:39.:30:45.

backlog of cases, having changed our view is so markedly towards that,

:30:46.:30:49.

taking it much more seriously? It is a question of rarities and I think

:30:50.:30:55.

the Metropolitan Police and other forces have got their priorities

:30:56.:31:00.

wrong. They should concentrate on current abuse, not historic abuse.

:31:01.:31:06.

And where historic abuse is investigated, they have to have even

:31:07.:31:11.

more corroboration land in present cases. Tell me how you are now? You

:31:12.:31:19.

have been deeply traumatised, he said it had ruined your life. You

:31:20.:31:24.

said you had lost your job, your home, tell me what your mature real

:31:25.:31:31.

circumstances are? I do not know what I am going to do, I am hoping

:31:32.:31:36.

that something may come of this, I am not wealthy, I need to work. I

:31:37.:31:42.

need the money and all of my planning was based on continuing to

:31:43.:31:45.

work, at least for another six years, and all of that has gone by.

:31:46.:31:51.

So I need something to happen. I have got no plans. The plan was to

:31:52.:31:56.

write the book, I have written the book 's. You were always known as a

:31:57.:32:03.

very right-wing member of the Conservative party. Just right. Have

:32:04.:32:08.

you become more socially liberal over the years? Partly through this?

:32:09.:32:15.

It is for others to judge. I always believed that I was dead centre of

:32:16.:32:21.

my political spectrum, others fell to the left or right and on some

:32:22.:32:26.

issues, you might be regarded as right-wing... Have you moved to the

:32:27.:32:30.

left as you have grown older? When you see the way that gay men have a

:32:31.:32:37.

better time than you did in the 1970s and 1980s? I am pleased about

:32:38.:32:46.

that for them. Not for you? I have been much too preoccupied with my

:32:47.:32:51.

own difficulties. I have every right to have been preoccupied and I had

:32:52.:32:57.

to take on the Metropolitan Police from what they have been doing to me

:32:58.:33:02.

and others. And it has been a hard fight and a hard struggle. Harvey

:33:03.:33:04.

Proctor, thank you. Walk around any city in the UK,

:33:05.:33:08.

and you will not be surprised to encounter people sleeping

:33:09.:33:11.

on the streets, tucked up The published numbers of street

:33:12.:33:15.

sleepers have been rising sharply. The stories of how people end up

:33:16.:33:22.

there are often complicated. And you probably don't have time

:33:23.:33:24.

to hear them let alone But here's a question:

:33:25.:33:27.

in 100 years' time, when future people look

:33:28.:33:34.

back on our society, will they ask how we

:33:35.:33:36.

tolerated rough sleeping? It surely can't cost that much

:33:37.:33:38.

to make sure everybody has a bed, or mental health

:33:39.:33:41.

provision if necessary? Well, we'll ask why the problem

:33:42.:33:43.

is unsolved in a few minutes, but first, the voice of rough

:33:44.:33:45.

sleepers themselves. This piece was put together for us,

:33:46.:33:47.

by the film-maker Dave Young. You want to know what it's

:33:48.:33:55.

like to be homeless? On a day-to-day basis I'm

:33:56.:33:57.

surrounded by crackheads, It's not like I want to be involved,

:33:58.:34:01.

but it's a road I found myself on. Like many people on this road,

:34:02.:34:07.

their lives are so complex It is probably the reason why we're

:34:08.:34:10.

all in this mess. And we don't even

:34:11.:34:13.

control the lights. And when it's windy and blistering

:34:14.:34:17.

cold in the darkest of November's nights, our only wish

:34:18.:34:20.

is to feel warm inside. A luxury we all miss,

:34:21.:34:22.

like a sweet kiss. I split with my wife,

:34:23.:34:32.

lived on a barge. The barge caught fire,

:34:33.:34:36.

I lost everything. I ended up with what I was wearing

:34:37.:34:40.

and ?26 in my pocket. The key worker told me I would be

:34:41.:34:45.

on the streets for six months. After that six months,

:34:46.:34:49.

the council could still take two Up until recently, Bristol only ever

:34:50.:34:51.

admitted to seven homeless people. And it's probably gone over

:34:52.:35:03.

the 200 mark now. And they all have their scared look

:35:04.:35:15.

on their face. I used to drive coaches

:35:16.:35:21.

all around the UK. My Nan died and I got kicked out

:35:22.:35:31.

by my uncle because the house I have a big problem,

:35:32.:35:35.

because I'm in a tent, I can't get my driving licence

:35:36.:35:46.

changed because I don't So without having my license

:35:47.:35:48.

updated, to this new address, If it is after seven then I can go

:35:49.:35:55.

20 minutes to Sainsbury's. But if I do, I stay in the tent

:35:56.:36:15.

in my sleeping bag and just I have been homeless for seven

:36:16.:36:30.

and a half months. In the town centre to start

:36:31.:36:44.

with but I was very anxious of night We were in a little two-man tent

:36:45.:36:47.

to start with and then somebody donated his tent and you can

:36:48.:36:53.

see behind us. If it was not for the general

:36:54.:36:57.

public, we would be knackered. If I have to find a job,

:36:58.:37:09.

I actually have to take all of my luggage to my job with me,

:37:10.:37:15.

which is not viable, As well is that, I have

:37:16.:37:18.

to carry my dirty stuff with my clean stuff,

:37:19.:37:29.

find somewhere to wash it and try it, put it all back

:37:30.:37:32.

into the same place. From months of walking,

:37:33.:37:34.

not wearing proper shoes. But I cannot help that,

:37:35.:37:40.

I cannot afford shoes. I live in a winter

:37:41.:37:42.

shelter as of the moment. We get fed at about 7:30am

:37:43.:37:56.

in the morning and then, until about 8.30pm at night,

:37:57.:38:02.

there is nothing else to eat. When we do have money,

:38:03.:38:05.

we're having to spend that money on fast food because it is not

:38:06.:38:13.

like we have the resources to cook We cannot store food,

:38:14.:38:17.

we cannot even store our clothes. I became homeless when my

:38:18.:38:24.

sister lost her house. The first night was

:38:25.:38:28.

terrible, definitely. I was sitting there,

:38:29.:38:33.

crying to myself, thinking, I cannot believe, all I want to do

:38:34.:38:38.

as a 26-year-old is just a normal We come here at eight o'clock

:38:39.:38:48.

at night time and then we get called Because I go to college

:38:49.:38:53.

two days a week. Those two days I'm OK and some days,

:38:54.:38:57.

even if I don't have college, I would be in the library

:38:58.:39:00.

doing my work, to kill the time off. It is great to have somewhere that

:39:01.:39:03.

you can go to at night and you can lie down, it is warm,

:39:04.:39:09.

you get good food, warm food to eat. My parents told me to ignore

:39:10.:39:13.

homeless people on the streets because they obviously

:39:14.:39:20.

declined the help. But I could never

:39:21.:39:22.

really accept that. I have now seen it first-hand

:39:23.:39:25.

and I'm meeting people, all different age groups,

:39:26.:39:28.

ethnicities, genders, We're handing over our fate

:39:29.:39:29.

and someone else is in control I think there is a system in place

:39:30.:39:38.

but it is not a system designed for helping people, it is a system

:39:39.:39:44.

designed for keeping people I decided to start helping other

:39:45.:39:47.

people. And I managed to get three people

:39:48.:39:53.

off the streets, into housing. In a washing machine

:39:54.:40:00.

factory in Bristol. And if I can do it, why can't

:40:01.:40:07.

an institute like the council do it? Basically, it is a problem

:40:08.:40:15.

all around Manchester, the homeless. But if you haven't got a local

:40:16.:40:18.

connection, you are not a priority. That is why I became homeless

:40:19.:40:26.

because I had to leave my house due to an ex-partner,

:40:27.:40:32.

for personal reasons. I went travelling and lost

:40:33.:40:35.

my local connection. They give you shelters but they only

:40:36.:40:39.

give you shelters for so long and then they kick you out

:40:40.:40:44.

again so you are back They need to sort it out,

:40:45.:40:46.

really, because it is It is just getting worse,

:40:47.:40:50.

it is never getting better. I have been living like this

:40:51.:40:57.

for a year and I am sick of it. It is my own fault because I

:40:58.:41:01.

walked out of my job. I walked out because I

:41:02.:41:05.

could not cope any more. I don't take drugs,

:41:06.:41:09.

I don't do whatever, On average I read about

:41:10.:41:11.

three novels a week. To escape from the reality

:41:12.:41:16.

of what I am living in. Whenever you put yourself in a book

:41:17.:41:19.

you could be anywhere. Anywhere in the world,

:41:20.:41:23.

doing anything. I just don't know whose

:41:24.:41:25.

dream I am living. Voices from a city street near you,

:41:26.:41:30.

put together by Dave Young. Back to our main story tonight now -

:41:31.:41:52.

the expected announcement from Steel giant Tata to sell its

:41:53.:41:57.

loss-making UK business. Chris Cook is our policy editor

:41:58.:41:58.

and has been speaking to people What are they saying? What I was

:41:59.:42:09.

struck by is they are going beyond platitudes and say how devoted they

:42:10.:42:15.

are to the steel industry but contrary to what Angela Eagle said

:42:16.:42:19.

earlier, they are concerned by the prospect of putting the government

:42:20.:42:21.

in as a backstop because they believe they could run up very big

:42:22.:42:27.

bills and they could run into the EU Commission. They are talking about

:42:28.:42:31.

facilitating a deal, a private sector solution, putting up

:42:32.:42:36.

government cash through loans and guarantees and talking about using

:42:37.:42:40.

procurement to swing more business that way. On their own, they will

:42:41.:42:45.

not rescue Port Talbot but they were things that might make it easier for

:42:46.:42:49.

a private sector solution. You can do some of those things and not rub

:42:50.:42:53.

against the state aid? Exactly. Thank you. That is all we have time

:42:54.:43:00.

for. We will hear more about that story tomorrow. From all of us, good

:43:01.:43:01.

night. Today was a day of sunshine and

:43:02.:43:16.

showers and tomorrow will be sunshine and showers but they are

:43:17.:43:21.

not the same and there will be fewer showers around tomorrow, still some

:43:22.:43:24.

heavy ones knocking about what a good chance that you will avoid them

:43:25.:43:28.

and see lots of fine weather. This is a snapshot from mid-afternoon,

:43:29.:43:30.

you

:43:31.:43:31.

With live reaction as Tata announces it will sell its entire UK steel business. Plus Harvey Proctor interviewed on Operation Midland claims. And is North Korea's nuclear programme more of a threat than we thought?


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