30/03/2016 Newsnight


Can UK steel survive? Rebuilding the ancient monuments of Palmyra. Afghan president Ashraf Ghani. Plus who should lead Brexit campaign? With Evan Davis.

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The biggest industrial headache in this country for many years.


With no time to waste, an enormous decision to be taken


I do not think that nationalisation is the solution because everybody


would want a long-term viable solution. I am shocked, the Business


Secretary's job is to ensure that jobs are maintained.


And if not, is there life after steel?


And ever since it has gone, it is like a ghost city.


Thank God he has really large ears, the biggest ears I have ever seen.


I would like to punch him in the face, I tell you.


He has no shortage of insults for people


But does Donald Trump have a problem with women?


Targeted by ISIS, reconstructed by lasers and 3D printing.


Is this the future of preserving ancient architecture?


Britain has not been keen on industrial intervention -


"It's throwing good money after bad," it's said.


But that laid-back, laissez-faire approach


is meeting its stiffest challenge ever.


Are we really willing to do nothing and watch our steel


Remember, when Britain let Rover go under, we already had a new car


industry in place - but that's not where


Needless to say, arguments for some kind of help are swirling around.


We need a steel industry for defence.


We shouldn't let others steal the market from us by


And some say it's a temporary problem, not a permanent one -


We will test some of these points later on, but the dilemma is stark -


Let's start with our policy editor, Chris Cook.


Today's bad news may be all about Port Talbot in south


Wales, but you have to look further afield to see


Tata Steel itself is based in Mumbai in India,


and that is where the decision was made.


But the country with the biggest impact on the global steel industry


is China, and any attempts by the UK Government to support British Steel


would be subject to review by the European


Now, steel is an essential material for modern


Behind me here is part of the giant Crossrail works.


This is built using Tata steel, in this


The problem isn't with demand so much, it is really with supply.


China, once upon a time, imported steel. The same time it was building


a domestic industry. Between 2012 and 2015, supplied meets demand and


the price for steel products in China more than halved. There is new


Chinese producers and they started to export. Chinese sales abroad


rising as domestic prices fell so in a few short years, China swinging


from a voracious customer to fierce competitor. This is not like the


problems facing banks in 2000 and eight, when you are on the verge of


having no big banks at all. Too many steelmakers in the world. Some argue


we should save our own steelmakers. We should not be looking for charity


or sentimental reasons for keeping this but there are clearly some


benefits, not for every company, but with proximity, integration to the


supply chain and if the car manufacturing base in the north-east


was integrated to the metals manufacturing in the West Midlands,


they can create real advantages over steel producers in China which


cannot react to market demands and going forwards into flexible forms


of production, having a base in the UK could be an advantage going


forwards, if we can keep advisable in the short-term. There are also


human costs to mass unemployment. You can see the trauma in many


former mining times and bad experience suggest you cannot


underestimate the potential fiscal costs either. Andrew, a left-wing


economist, estimates it would have been cheaper to pay the costs of


keeping 31 minds open in the 1990s and paying the bill for the miners


but Britain would not be allowed to prop up Port Talbot. It is a


founding principle of the EU that states should not be allowed to tilt


the playing field in favour of the own companies by putting up or years


to foreign companies or by offering subsidies. That last real, the state


aid rules, could get in the way of helping a company like Tata Steel in


Britain. There are limited exceptions to this rule is on


subsidies. One relates to so-called rescue aid. It is permissible in


tightly defined circumstances and has to be with a view to restoring


the business to its long-term health and it is considered very much a


temporary measure. Since the European Commission estimates Europe


has 15% too much steel-making capacity, selling the rescue would


be tough but the EU might be handy cover for Britain. The government is


not keen to end up with a loss-making business on the balance


sheet. I do not think that nationalisation is the solution


because everyone would want a long-term, viable solution and if


you look at Europe and elsewhere, nationalisation is rarely the


answer, if you take into account the challenges the industry faces but


there are solutions to this once we understand the situation better and


we want to make sure we explored them. What might the ministers do?


Britain is against raising Europe-wide tariffs on Chinese


steel, noting the pain it would cause to steel buyers. Labour has


supported intervention and measures against Chinese steel. I went to


meet the President of China to press on him but very demand. It seems to


me that too many people are not prepared to say to the Chinese


government, sorry, your behaviour is not right, not fair and not proper


and not within the rules of the World Trade Organisation. If they


are to avoid closing this chapter in steel-making history, what options


have ministers got? They could cut energy costs or they could buy more


British Steel or they could help finance a sale. But that needs


someone to take the plant on. The killer question is- who might not be


and what might they save? Chris Cook.


You can read the history of the European steel industry over


the last 50 years, and it comes across as one manifest crisis


after another - a recession each decade, excess supply,


attempts by Europe to manage things, thwarted by the desire of each


country to keep its own plants open at any cost.


It makes this a peculiarly difficult industry to manage.


Sir Vince Cable is with us, Lib Dem and former Business Secretary


If you were still in that job, what would you be doing tomorrow? I think


that government intervention is involved whether we like it or not


and were already intervening by providing compensation because of


high energy costs and state aid clearance we have for that. The


argument is we could be doing more of that. What we would have to do


tomorrow is trying to bridge the very short-term objective which Tata


Steel have said for getting out of the industry and the longer period


which would be required to manage this sale in an orderly way without


catastrophic consequences and the other area we have to look at


closely is the issue of International Trade, I am not


protectionist but under national -- International Trade la, if you get


dumping in foreign markets at domestic prices, with the Chinese


have allegedly been doing, then the EU is entitled are entitled to


impose duties as it has done at relatively low levels. The British


government voted against the higher tariff regime they could have gone


for. Those are the issues. You use the word sale and were using the


same word, up for sale, British Steel, but it is not up for sale,


they would give it away. They would sell for ?1. They would pay someone


to take it. There are not many buyers around on the issue of


Scunthorpe came up, we had one man who is -- who expressed interest in


asset stripping but there has been what seems to be a qualified seal to


a buyer in Scotland, the Scottish government intervened and then


nationalised this form a few seconds to allow that deal to take place so


yes, it is a difficult environment. On nationalisation, would you


support, you are not in favour of long-term nationalisation would you


support short-term nationalisation if it meant the Exchequer would pay


?1 million every week to keep this alive? I would approach this in a


non-travelling, public ownership has a role in committed circumstances,


but if it would help, I didn't think this is a question of throwing large


amounts of taxpayer money at this, a rapid does orderly closure would


impose large costs. Not just on the human cost, on the community, but a


large fiscal cost as well. Clearly, the government must look at value


for money, but as one of the requirements of the European Union


rules. If there was value for money in a temporary period of public


intervention, then we should do it. This does not get publicity in the


coalition we had this problem at the last underground coal mines and


there was a temporary finance provided. We will pick up on those


strategic questions. Well, is there economic


life after steel? In effect we find ourselves


asking an old question - how as a country do we respond


to the changing balance London is bursting with new jobs


but doesn't have the housing to accommodate everyone,


so it's no good expecting all of Britain to move


there to find work. But can you move new


jobs to South Wales? Do you pay jobs to go there,


and if you do, is it better to simply pay an existing steel


company to stay there? We sent Secunder Kermani not


to Port Talbot today, but to Ebbw Vale, where the steel


mill, once the largest in Europe, Ebbw Vale in south Wales


was built on steel. At its peak, the works


here provided around 15,000 But amidst many of the same market


pressures still in place Like in Port Talbot,


around an hour's drive away from here, steel


was in the heart of the community But if you look at the site


with the steelworks used to be, there is almost no sign


of it left any more. If you want to know what happens


when heavy industry leaves town, With the steelworks,


I can go back a lot of years, and when you left school at 15,


you got an apprenticeship, You could go from one job,


you could leave a job on Friday and get a job on Monday,


and ever since it's gone There is nothing to


do in this valley at Both grandfathers were in the steel,


in the mines, like. Yes, because there


was a lot more jobs There was hundreds


and hundreds of jobs. It was a lot easier in the '70s,


'80s, '90s than what it is now. Many of those who lost


their jobs either retired, became


self-employed or left town. I moved to Swindon, been


in Swindon for 14 years. Every family would have had someone


that worked at the works, and if you look at the signage


around, even today, The union rep at the time


the steelworks closed is Dai Davies. He says workers were let down


by government after government. They've all neglected


the valley communities. I've said many times that the valley


communities built the world, so iron, steel and coal production,


we built the world, and yet we are now left with basically empty


valleys, empty shells The local council bought


the site of the steelworks. One of its rolling machines,


too heavy to move, still They build a hospital,


leisure centre in schools Part of a regeneration,


an attempt to lead people Richard Crook has led


the project, and sees better education as the best


replacement for the lost jobs. We certainly took the opportunity


that because the works were closing, Had the works not closed,


then potentially we may have continued on in that same


process, which at some point in the future would have led


to us to have to make the same decision, so yes, it is easy


to become wedded to what is there, and it is understandable,


because it is providing good quality employment


and spreading the growth into the supply chain,


so why change? Sometimes you need that jolt


to force the change, and to move on into a 21st-century


economy, and that is No, but you have to take


it as an opportunity, because if it has


happened, what do you do? But many have greeted


the new developments with cynicism. They say there is no


compensation for the This is the archive section


I set up on leaving He began documenting the changes


to the town with a video camera, bought with


his redundancy money. It is not bringing jobs


to Ebbw Vale, and that is the one It is a nice town now,


clean town, nice But as far as the people


are concerned, it's not, because in the 60s and 70s,


everybody had work, despite the fact that they were living


in perhaps poor conditions, There are still factories here,


and TVR is due to set But many lament the demise of steel,


and warn Port Talbot will, too. Well, joining me now to discuss


whether steel has a future and whether government should be


intervening in markets like this at all are Professor


Mariana Mazzucato, author of The Entrepreneurial State


and Professor at Sussex University, Allister Heath, Deputy Editor


of the Daily Telegraph, and Sir Vince Cable


is still with us. Do you find this case, when you look


at what happened in Ebbw Vale, it is a challenge to the view that the


Government should let industry work itself out? I find all cases with


big job losses and huge impact on community is very difficult, but


nevertheless the future of this country is to embrace globalisation,


free trade, new industries that are viable in the modern economy, and I


think we have done really well overall as a country. There are


problems in certain areas, old coal mining and steel mining areas, but


overall as a country we have embraced these new service


industries and high-tech manufacturing. No one is going to


say Britain doesn't have jobs, not always the best paid, but we have


jobs. But what you do with the valleys in your point of view? Due


basically say to people, the jobs are not there, you have to move? Or


do you bribe other companies to move jobs there? How do you connect the


new economy, a lot of which is in hubs around London and the


south-east, and the bits that haven't got these? That is the great


challenge in how you in Jenny this great challenge. There is a set of


answers, you need to create enterprise zones, give fiscal


incentives, zero copies in tax, no national insurance in those areas,


so a set of policies like that to try to change those areas, but I


think resisting change, saying we are going to stick with 20th century


industries, 19th century industries, that is not the solution. These


industries have declined for 20 or 30 years, and this is just the


acceleration of a long-running process. The other two of you I


think are more interventionist, I think. You believe Government has a


bigger role, what you say to him? There is a static dichotomy that has


been depicted, either nationalisation or being laid-back,


the term embracing industry. The term embracing industry comes from a


co-investment between public and private sectors, and some of the


great champions in this country, Rolls-Royce, jaguar, other sectors,


have been fruits of those kind of public interventions which are not


just about subsidies, incentives through different types of tax cuts,


but again, investment. And so I really think that this is a


question, and if you look at the US or Belgium, what they have actually


done is to transform and modernise the steel industry, to recover, the


purpose, reuse, suggested the US, that is worth $8 billion. One of


your industrial policies, you have said on this programme many times


that industry needs patient finance, financiers who are not here today,


gone tomorrow. Steele has had patient finance, Tata is the epitome


of a good, well-run company that gives its divisions time to sort


themselves out, but it given up. But we shouldn't just be part of another


country's industrial policy which isn't necessarily went to the UK


steel industry, and as changes occur to commodity prices, we just go with


the wind. One of the questions is, what kind of deals also can be


struck with these foreign sources of patient finance, and you are right


to look at them as a source of patient finance. When Fiat went to


the US and joined with Chrysler, Obama insisted that they look at


hybrid engines. In the same in Italy, you don't strike if you want


to biotic deals with the private sector, because if you want


incentive to be business friendly, this terrible word that we keep


repeating, because business itself doesn't then effect from


friendliness, it benefits from having a strategic innovation


policy, and we need better deals. A lot of the stuff that Alastair was


talking about is going to have to happen anyway, because even in the


best case scenario, there will be a lot of redundancies, so that kind of


sport -- support is whether some intervention is required to hold it


from complete collapse. This isn't just standardised products, we


talking high-value products, high-value technology, and Tata


believed passionately until recently in Port Tolbert, they invested in a


new blast furnace, so I think what we have to distinguish is the


long-term competitiveness issues which are tricky but can be


overcome, and this global glut problem. And the question to ask, is


the global glut problem temporary, as we deal with the Chinese import


issue, or is it a permanent or semipermanent problem, in which case


there isn't a great deal we can do except of vast cost.


But your view is the global glut is temporary? It to do with the Chinese


adjustment to a more balanced economy. They are producing 800


million tonnes, we are producing 12 million tonnes, we are barely a


decimal point on the production, they only have to move a little bit


and we are blown over. You think there is a viable portion? I can't


predict the future, none of us can. But there is also the question of


the unstable policies that both the last government and this government


having committed around energy, this stop and start, so given that energy


costs are a big fact for steel, they need certainty, not just the


investors... If we had a fair energy price and a level playing field, do


you think there would still be overcapacity in the world steel


market, and should Britain be trying to keep it a bit in the market? When


you are using the word steel, you're taking a snapshot, this static thing


called steel. In any sector, we can modernise, we can have innovation


policy which transforms the steel industry, and instead, ironically,


it is precisely because we have had these laissez faire policies that we


have a decaying sector. There is massive overcapacity in the global


steel industry, but these are long-term problems. 320,000 people


were avoiding the steel in 1970, now there are 30,000, so a 90%


reduction. The answer is not to hark back to those days. You are agreeing


with Marianna there. And looking at Jaguar Land Rover, they depend on


buying cheaper steel, so we need to make the overall economy as


competitive as possible in the global market, not saddling


ourselves with overpriced steel and expensive energy. Other industries


benefit from dumped Chinese steel. Yes, they have bought in in these


companies. So more than half of the market is imported. Would you


happily see those companies lose jobs or pay more for their steel?


There is always creative destruction, so would we have


tariffs? Would you have tariffs? It is not about do you want them or


not. I think we should have free trade, that should be the solution.


Which try to police trade and make sure that people don't abuse the


system, but by and large we should enter free trade. I actually don't


think we're getting to the core of the problem. I would like to hear


Tata talk about this, when they close down some recent project in


the UK, what they said was there was no vision in this country, in that


particular case were green. I would bet that Mr Tata would not be


closing down the plant here if he thought it was a hub of new thinking


around steel, exactly in how you are talking about it, which is not just


steel as a static sector but transformative and affecting the way


other sectors operate. We don't have any industrial innovation. I want to


ask you one more question, Vince. Do you recognise a case for keeping


steel as a strategic industry in the case that a country the size of ours


needs steel to build the defence and other purposes? The key strategic


industries these days are electronic scum IT and so on, steel because we


need dreadnoughts and so on, but I don't think we should be cavalier


about accepting that we are the first major country not to make


basic steel, I would worry about that. Thank you all very much, and


I'm sorry we didn't have a member of the government here to make their


point, they didn't offer anybody to us this evening. Let's move onto


Donald Trump. He may describe himself as winning,


but he's not a winner Almost half of Republican women say


they could not imagine themselves supporting Mr Trump


in a presidential election. Last week, or was it the week


before, he was abusing His campaign manager has been


charged with battery for grabbing And today he made some comments


about abortion that have been Do you believe in


punishment for abortion? The answer is that there has to be


some form of punishment. As it happens, that line was dragged


out of him by the interviewer - he had seemed reluctant to go


that far, and he has Let's take stock of his appeal -


or lack thereof - to women voters. I'm joined by Molly Ball,


who is covering the US Presidential Something of a muddle in his line on


abortion tonight. How do you think he will play it? Donald Trump has


been all over the map on abortion and a lot of different issues, he


tends to do this, taking contradictory stands, sometimes even


in the same breath, and I think this allows people who like in to see


whatever they want to see in him. In this case, after making the


statement you just played on the tape, he then issued a statement


later saying the exact opposite, that in the case, the hypothetical


case that abortion were to be Bandini knighted States, it ought to


be the people performing the abortions who would be prosecuted


for that illegal act, not the women, who he described as the victims in


this scenario along with the life in the womb. Donald Trump has a history


of being pro-choice, meaning in favour of abortion rights, and he


has claimed that he had an epiphany sometime between then and when he


decided to run as Republican candidate for president, you really


can't be a Republican candidate and be in favour of abortion rights, but


he says he has the same position as Ronald Reagan, which is pro-life


with exceptions, he would make exceptions to allow abortions in


cases of rape and incest and when the life of the mother is in danger.


I'm assuming his views on abortion are not really what is driving these


rather poor polling ratings for him, because Republican women are keener


on Cruz that they are on Trump. What are women not liking? You mention


some of his greatest hits in terms of insulting women, but there is a


litany of statements. He has been feuding with the Fox News anchor


Megan Kelly, one of the stars of Conservative media, since the very


first debate back in August, when she asked him about his offensive


remarks about women. -- Megyn Kelly. He then went on television after


that debate and insulted her, and they have continued to feud in the


ensuing months. He frequently describes women in terms of their


appearance and derides the based on their appearance. I think a lot of


women feel that that is not just insulting to those individual women,


but to women as a whole, that he sees them as objects, and he doesn't


take them seriously as people. So you mentioned that half of


Republican women don't like him, but it is about three quarters of women


in the general electorate, and in presidential elections, women vote


at higher rates than men do, they are the majority of the electorate.


But he really doesn't seem to try, that is amazing. He carries on, he


has this form, this history, you think you might have looked at the


ratings and come up with something nice to say to women, but he doesn't


try. What is going on in his head? Is he just too sure of himself? Or


does he think, I keep winning by breaking rules, so I will keep


breaking the rules in the hope that this will pay dividends later. Fabio


Petroni to try to psychoanalyse Donald Trump, I do think anyone


knows what is going on inside his brain. -- far be it from me. But he


has this willingness to say what other people won't say, he is not


bound by political correctness, and a lot of people, particularly men,


feel emasculated by feminism and by the increasing equality of women,


and feel that in this day and age, you can't even tell a woman that she


looks pretty without having people all over you, so it is a sort of


white male identity politics that Donald Trump is speaking to, but as


you mention, he hasn't made any effort to broaden his appeal or


build bridges to people who are not in that segment. You have 12 seconds


to answer the question, will women vote Hillary Clinton? Does she grab


women? Are they all right laying around behind her? That is a big


question, but she has not managed to rally women to herself in the


Democratic primary. In 2008, she ran as a sexless candidate, but she has


run more aggressively this time, wanting to be the first woman


president, and in her primary against Bernie Sanders, young women


have not flocked to have as a result. Molly, thank you very much


indeed. The President of Afghanistan,


Ahshraf Ghani, has been in office for 18 months now, never attracting


quite as much attention in the West It may be good news that the world


is paying less attention to Afghanistan, but there


is a continued outflow of the country's citizens keen


to escape to richer nations. A quarter of the Mediterranean Sea


arrivals so far this year have been The BBC's Yalda Hakim managed to get


an interview with Ashraf Ghani about the migrant problem,


and began by asking him why there has been an exodus


of people from his country. This is one of the most


connected societies on earth. Because it became


a country of refugees. In Europe, in the United States,


in North America, Australia. We have at least a million


people who have settled. They have a million ties that bind


them with others so they pull. We're very proud of our Afghans,


they are now hyphenated Afghans. Particularly the social model


in Europe, the social welfare model, the welfare state, has


done well by Afghans. In Germany, for instance,


they have done extraordinary things. The push factors are,


a war has been imposed upon us. The departure of not just


international troops but the contractors took away


a million upper middle-class people This is a country where,


for 15 years, a lot of blood and treasure has gone in to create


a stable society. Sure, but it has also created one


of the most corrupt sets The inheritance of that is 41%


of people living below poverty. Yes, it is a country that has become


the platform for a regional We are at war but we're


not at civil war. The war between Afghans is a very


small component of a regional Al-Qaeda, unfortunately,


has gone deep and dark, Daesh is active here,


as it has done atrocious things. When I warned about the fear


of Daesh, it was not heeded, They said that this country


would become a graveyard for Daesh. But we also have the greatest


medium-term threat. Massive numbers of Pakistani Taliban


are being transposed Why, then, are Europeans


sending Afghans back, saying that they are economic


migrants, that they only come to Europe because of


poverty and not war? The social contract in Europe


vis-a-vis refugees was articulated In a period of liberalism's heyday


and welfare strength. That model, unfortunately,


is being re-negotiated. But there are also people


fleeing persecution. 11,000 people were


killed in this country. Did you ask the people of the UK


when Hitler was in the ascent Please understand, we have


to make a commitment. 549 young men and women graduated


from the military academy. They are making a commitment


to defend this country. Others on whom we have spent


hundreds of millions of dollars who want to leave under


the slightest pressure. If you want to have a country,


you need to have the will. It is not the slightest


pressure, though. In the last year we have


seen the worst violence. They are making that


dangerous journey. They are impoverishing


their families in order Because that journey was based


on false assumptions. Do we stand up for our right


to breathe and our right to live Countries do not survive


by their best attempting to flee. My goal is to make sure


that my people live If we don't stand up in the face


of the threat, and the threats are very real, my life


is threatened everyday. I go to different


parts of Afghanistan. But you have the protection that


other Afghans don't. You think when rockets


are fired at you, you have When bombs are thrown at you,


you have protection against it? If I had that sense,


I would surround myself Genuine is always better


than fake, but is fake better A topic discussed in many


different areas of life, The technology of 3D printing drawn


from multiple photographs means we have the power to create detailed


replicas more easily This, in fact, is a replica


in the making - a monumental scale reconstruction of the Triumphal Arch


from Palmyra's Temple of Bel. The real arch was destroyed by Isis


when they occupied the ancient city. This one, built in blocks, will be


installed on Trafalgar Square, then it goes to New York


and then Palmyra itself. So how far can replica substitute


for a destroyed past? Should you even contemplate putting


replicas on the sites Joining me now in the studio


is Dr Alexy Karenowska, the director of technology


at the Institute of And from Edinburgh is author


James Crawford, whose book Fallen Glory tells the story of some


of the world's greatest Tell us about your group. How well


can you make a replica? How realistic? Very realistic indeed,


our processes or a combination of architectural 3D printing and 3D


machine work can reproduce objects to the level of sub millimetre


precision. There are a series of surface techniques we can use to


reproduce the effects of weathering and ageing and the general


appearance. And the material, not plastic, what is it? We are working


on technology which combines real stone, the arch in Trafalgar Square


will be marble and Geo composite materials, artificial stones from 3D


printing. What is the purpose? There are many, in the context of


large-scale reconstruction, what we're doing is exploring


technologies that we believe can make a real difference


reconstructing regions like Syria which have been badly damaged and


these technologies open the door for producing a way of producing and


preserving the cultural heritage, the tangible and intangible aspects


of that. And really keeping the living history of these areas alive.


James, does this excite you? It does. The technology is fantastic,


it is or inspiring in the true sense of that phrase and my concern is not


what shall happen in Trafalgar Square and Times Square, and they


will be visiting, it is the idea of reconstructing on the actual site of


Palymyra itself. Tell me why you would not want this archway to go


back to where it was before Isis destroyed it? One of the things that


it brings to mind is the theory that comes from robotics and in the


1970s, the uncanny Valley, that machines will get to the point where


they were so close to humans, instead of us empathising, we


respond to them with revulsion and there is a danger with this


reconstruction of archaeology that we might respond to Palmyra in the


same way, but it becomes uncanny and what a tragic end for this city, but


when we visit it, we feel this sense of unease. Why would we feel that?


You will see the arch in Palymyra, you will barely be able to tell that


it was not the original, that has some subtle effect? Very much so,


you will barely be able to tell and you might not realise it but as time


goes by, that response, this concept of revulsion and that has happened


before, in 1900, an English antiquarian bought up the site at


Crete and brought this with -- rebuilt it with reinforced concrete


and some people thought this was fantastic but even while, when he


went on a Mediterranean cruise, and visited the site, he thought this


was a place of oppressive wickedness so there is a danger when you engage


in this process of reconstruction, it can have a negative impact. Is


the plan to put the reconstructed arch back with the original was or


to put it in a museum 500 metres away? Several things are important,


the overall aim of this project is to move towards on-site


reconstruction of the installation in Trafalgar Square and India work


or a demonstration of this technology and in response to the


point that were made, I would agree that it is extremely important that


we understand that the reconstruction is not the original


and it would be wrong to put objects on the site and claim that they are


something they are not. But I think it is also important to realise that


there is a huge tragedy in the complete loss of these physical


objects and yet the physical objects themselves are not the only element


of the cultural heritage they represent. I think that we have to


balance here respect for the site but also making sure we do not get


caught up too much in what we might describe as the romance of the


Roman, it is important that we are not too attached to the physical


objects. We can talk about this longer but we don't have the time.


Thank you both very much. That is all we have time for, Kirsty will be


here tomorrow. Good night. Temperatures falling out there under


largely clear skies and a touch of frost first thing tomorrow, showers


over south-east of Scotland and North East England and they could be


heavy through the day with the few showers developing elsewhere. Some


lively ones are parts of Northern Ireland staying dry with sunshine


and reaching double figures, largely dry in northern Scotland and we will


start the day before freezing