30/03/2016 Newsnight

The biggest industrial headache in this country for many years.

With no time to waste, an enormous decision to be taken

I do not think that nationalisation is the solution because everybody

would want a long-term viable solution. I am shocked, the Business

Secretary's job is to ensure that jobs are maintained.

And if not, is there life after steel?

And ever since it has gone, it is like a ghost city.

Thank God he has really large ears, the biggest ears I have ever seen.

I would like to punch him in the face, I tell you.

He has no shortage of insults for people

But does Donald Trump have a problem with women?

Targeted by ISIS, reconstructed by lasers and 3D printing.

Is this the future of preserving ancient architecture?

Britain has not been keen on industrial intervention -

"It's throwing good money after bad," it's said.

But that laid-back, laissez-faire approach

is meeting its stiffest challenge ever.

Are we really willing to do nothing and watch our steel

Remember, when Britain let Rover go under, we already had a new car

industry in place - but that's not where

Needless to say, arguments for some kind of help are swirling around.

We need a steel industry for defence.

We shouldn't let others steal the market from us by

And some say it's a temporary problem, not a permanent one -

We will test some of these points later on, but the dilemma is stark -

Let's start with our policy editor, Chris Cook.

Today's bad news may be all about Port Talbot in south

Wales, but you have to look further afield to see

Tata Steel itself is based in Mumbai in India,

and that is where the decision was made.

But the country with the biggest impact on the global steel industry

is China, and any attempts by the UK Government to support British Steel

would be subject to review by the European

Now, steel is an essential material for modern

Behind me here is part of the giant Crossrail works.

This is built using Tata steel, in this

The problem isn't with demand so much, it is really with supply.

China, once upon a time, imported steel. The same time it was building

a domestic industry. Between 2012 and 2015, supplied meets demand and

the price for steel products in China more than halved. There is new

Chinese producers and they started to export. Chinese sales abroad

rising as domestic prices fell so in a few short years, China swinging

from a voracious customer to fierce competitor. This is not like the

problems facing banks in 2000 and eight, when you are on the verge of

having no big banks at all. Too many steelmakers in the world. Some argue

we should save our own steelmakers. We should not be looking for charity

or sentimental reasons for keeping this but there are clearly some

benefits, not for every company, but with proximity, integration to the

supply chain and if the car manufacturing base in the north-east

was integrated to the metals manufacturing in the West Midlands,

they can create real advantages over steel producers in China which

cannot react to market demands and going forwards into flexible forms

of production, having a base in the UK could be an advantage going

forwards, if we can keep advisable in the short-term. There are also

human costs to mass unemployment. You can see the trauma in many

former mining times and bad experience suggest you cannot

underestimate the potential fiscal costs either. Andrew, a left-wing

economist, estimates it would have been cheaper to pay the costs of

keeping 31 minds open in the 1990s and paying the bill for the miners

but Britain would not be allowed to prop up Port Talbot. It is a

founding principle of the EU that states should not be allowed to tilt

the playing field in favour of the own companies by putting up or years

to foreign companies or by offering subsidies. That last real, the state

aid rules, could get in the way of helping a company like Tata Steel in

Britain. There are limited exceptions to this rule is on

subsidies. One relates to so-called rescue aid. It is permissible in

tightly defined circumstances and has to be with a view to restoring

the business to its long-term health and it is considered very much a

temporary measure. Since the European Commission estimates Europe

has 15% too much steel-making capacity, selling the rescue would

be tough but the EU might be handy cover for Britain. The government is

not keen to end up with a loss-making business on the balance

sheet. I do not think that nationalisation is the solution

because everyone would want a long-term, viable solution and if

you look at Europe and elsewhere, nationalisation is rarely the

answer, if you take into account the challenges the industry faces but

there are solutions to this once we understand the situation better and

we want to make sure we explored them. What might the ministers do?

Britain is against raising Europe-wide tariffs on Chinese

steel, noting the pain it would cause to steel buyers. Labour has

supported intervention and measures against Chinese steel. I went to

meet the President of China to press on him but very demand. It seems to

me that too many people are not prepared to say to the Chinese

government, sorry, your behaviour is not right, not fair and not proper

and not within the rules of the World Trade Organisation. If they

are to avoid closing this chapter in steel-making history, what options

have ministers got? They could cut energy costs or they could buy more

British Steel or they could help finance a sale. But that needs

someone to take the plant on. The killer question is- who might not be

and what might they save? Chris Cook.

You can read the history of the European steel industry over

the last 50 years, and it comes across as one manifest crisis

after another - a recession each decade, excess supply,

attempts by Europe to manage things, thwarted by the desire of each

country to keep its own plants open at any cost.

It makes this a peculiarly difficult industry to manage.

Sir Vince Cable is with us, Lib Dem and former Business Secretary

If you were still in that job, what would you be doing tomorrow? I think

that government intervention is involved whether we like it or not

and were already intervening by providing compensation because of

high energy costs and state aid clearance we have for that. The

argument is we could be doing more of that. What we would have to do

tomorrow is trying to bridge the very short-term objective which Tata

Steel have said for getting out of the industry and the longer period

which would be required to manage this sale in an orderly way without

catastrophic consequences and the other area we have to look at

closely is the issue of International Trade, I am not

protectionist but under national -- International Trade la, if you get

dumping in foreign markets at domestic prices, with the Chinese

have allegedly been doing, then the EU is entitled are entitled to

impose duties as it has done at relatively low levels. The British

government voted against the higher tariff regime they could have gone

for. Those are the issues. You use the word sale and were using the

same word, up for sale, British Steel, but it is not up for sale,

they would give it away. They would sell for ?1. They would pay someone

to take it. There are not many buyers around on the issue of

Scunthorpe came up, we had one man who is -- who expressed interest in

asset stripping but there has been what seems to be a qualified seal to

a buyer in Scotland, the Scottish government intervened and then

nationalised this form a few seconds to allow that deal to take place so

yes, it is a difficult environment. On nationalisation, would you

support, you are not in favour of long-term nationalisation would you

support short-term nationalisation if it meant the Exchequer would pay

?1 million every week to keep this alive? I would approach this in a

non-travelling, public ownership has a role in committed circumstances,

but if it would help, I didn't think this is a question of throwing large

amounts of taxpayer money at this, a rapid does orderly closure would

impose large costs. Not just on the human cost, on the community, but a

large fiscal cost as well. Clearly, the government must look at value

for money, but as one of the requirements of the European Union

rules. If there was value for money in a temporary period of public

intervention, then we should do it. This does not get publicity in the

coalition we had this problem at the last underground coal mines and

there was a temporary finance provided. We will pick up on those

strategic questions. Well, is there economic

life after steel? In effect we find ourselves

asking an old question - how as a country do we respond

to the changing balance London is bursting with new jobs

but doesn't have the housing to accommodate everyone,

so it's no good expecting all of Britain to move

there to find work. But can you move new

jobs to South Wales? Do you pay jobs to go there,

and if you do, is it better to simply pay an existing steel

company to stay there? We sent Secunder Kermani not

to Port Talbot today, but to Ebbw Vale, where the steel

mill, once the largest in Europe, Ebbw Vale in south Wales

was built on steel. At its peak, the works

here provided around 15,000 But amidst many of the same market

pressures still in place Like in Port Talbot,

around an hour's drive away from here, steel

was in the heart of the community But if you look at the site

with the steelworks used to be, there is almost no sign

of it left any more. If you want to know what happens

when heavy industry leaves town, With the steelworks,

I can go back a lot of years, and when you left school at 15,

you got an apprenticeship, You could go from one job,

you could leave a job on Friday and get a job on Monday,

and ever since it's gone There is nothing to

do in this valley at Both grandfathers were in the steel,

in the mines, like. Yes, because there

was a lot more jobs There was hundreds

and hundreds of jobs. It was a lot easier in the '70s,

'80s, '90s than what it is now. Many of those who lost

their jobs either retired, became

self-employed or left town. I moved to Swindon, been

in Swindon for 14 years. Every family would have had someone

that worked at the works, and if you look at the signage

around, even today, The union rep at the time

the steelworks closed is Dai Davies. He says workers were let down

by government after government. They've all neglected

the valley communities. I've said many times that the valley

communities built the world, so iron, steel and coal production,

we built the world, and yet we are now left with basically empty

valleys, empty shells The local council bought

the site of the steelworks. One of its rolling machines,

too heavy to move, still They build a hospital,

leisure centre in schools Part of a regeneration,

an attempt to lead people Richard Crook has led

the project, and sees better education as the best

replacement for the lost jobs. We certainly took the opportunity

that because the works were closing, Had the works not closed,

then potentially we may have continued on in that same

process, which at some point in the future would have led

to us to have to make the same decision, so yes, it is easy

to become wedded to what is there, and it is understandable,

because it is providing good quality employment

and spreading the growth into the supply chain,

so why change? Sometimes you need that jolt

to force the change, and to move on into a 21st-century

economy, and that is No, but you have to take

it as an opportunity, because if it has

happened, what do you do? But many have greeted

the new developments with cynicism. They say there is no

compensation for the This is the archive section

I set up on leaving He began documenting the changes

to the town with a video camera, bought with

his redundancy money. It is not bringing jobs

to Ebbw Vale, and that is the one It is a nice town now,

clean town, nice But as far as the people

are concerned, it's not, because in the 60s and 70s,

everybody had work, despite the fact that they were living

in perhaps poor conditions, There are still factories here,

and TVR is due to set But many lament the demise of steel,

and warn Port Talbot will, too. Well, joining me now to discuss

whether steel has a future and whether government should be

intervening in markets like this at all are Professor

Mariana Mazzucato, author of The Entrepreneurial State

and Professor at Sussex University, Allister Heath, Deputy Editor

of the Daily Telegraph, and Sir Vince Cable

is still with us. Do you find this case, when you look

at what happened in Ebbw Vale, it is a challenge to the view that the

Government should let industry work itself out? I find all cases with

big job losses and huge impact on community is very difficult, but

nevertheless the future of this country is to embrace globalisation,

free trade, new industries that are viable in the modern economy, and I

think we have done really well overall as a country. There are

problems in certain areas, old coal mining and steel mining areas, but

overall as a country we have embraced these new service

industries and high-tech manufacturing. No one is going to

say Britain doesn't have jobs, not always the best paid, but we have

jobs. But what you do with the valleys in your point of view? Due

basically say to people, the jobs are not there, you have to move? Or

do you bribe other companies to move jobs there? How do you connect the

new economy, a lot of which is in hubs around London and the

south-east, and the bits that haven't got these? That is the great

challenge in how you in Jenny this great challenge. There is a set of

answers, you need to create enterprise zones, give fiscal

incentives, zero copies in tax, no national insurance in those areas,

so a set of policies like that to try to change those areas, but I

think resisting change, saying we are going to stick with 20th century

industries, 19th century industries, that is not the solution. These

industries have declined for 20 or 30 years, and this is just the

acceleration of a long-running process. The other two of you I

think are more interventionist, I think. You believe Government has a

bigger role, what you say to him? There is a static dichotomy that has

been depicted, either nationalisation or being laid-back,

the term embracing industry. The term embracing industry comes from a

co-investment between public and private sectors, and some of the

great champions in this country, Rolls-Royce, jaguar, other sectors,

have been fruits of those kind of public interventions which are not

just about subsidies, incentives through different types of tax cuts,

but again, investment. And so I really think that this is a

question, and if you look at the US or Belgium, what they have actually

done is to transform and modernise the steel industry, to recover, the

purpose, reuse, suggested the US, that is worth $8 billion. One of

your industrial policies, you have said on this programme many times

that industry needs patient finance, financiers who are not here today,

gone tomorrow. Steele has had patient finance, Tata is the epitome

of a good, well-run company that gives its divisions time to sort

themselves out, but it given up. But we shouldn't just be part of another

country's industrial policy which isn't necessarily went to the UK

steel industry, and as changes occur to commodity prices, we just go with

the wind. One of the questions is, what kind of deals also can be

struck with these foreign sources of patient finance, and you are right

to look at them as a source of patient finance. When Fiat went to

the US and joined with Chrysler, Obama insisted that they look at

hybrid engines. In the same in Italy, you don't strike if you want

to biotic deals with the private sector, because if you want

incentive to be business friendly, this terrible word that we keep

repeating, because business itself doesn't then effect from

friendliness, it benefits from having a strategic innovation

policy, and we need better deals. A lot of the stuff that Alastair was

talking about is going to have to happen anyway, because even in the

best case scenario, there will be a lot of redundancies, so that kind of

sport -- support is whether some intervention is required to hold it

from complete collapse. This isn't just standardised products, we

talking high-value products, high-value technology, and Tata

believed passionately until recently in Port Tolbert, they invested in a

new blast furnace, so I think what we have to distinguish is the

long-term competitiveness issues which are tricky but can be

overcome, and this global glut problem. And the question to ask, is

the global glut problem temporary, as we deal with the Chinese import

issue, or is it a permanent or semipermanent problem, in which case

there isn't a great deal we can do except of vast cost.

But your view is the global glut is temporary? It to do with the Chinese

adjustment to a more balanced economy. They are producing 800

million tonnes, we are producing 12 million tonnes, we are barely a

decimal point on the production, they only have to move a little bit

and we are blown over. You think there is a viable portion? I can't

predict the future, none of us can. But there is also the question of

the unstable policies that both the last government and this government

having committed around energy, this stop and start, so given that energy

costs are a big fact for steel, they need certainty, not just the

investors... If we had a fair energy price and a level playing field, do

you think there would still be overcapacity in the world steel

market, and should Britain be trying to keep it a bit in the market? When

you are using the word steel, you're taking a snapshot, this static thing

called steel. In any sector, we can modernise, we can have innovation

policy which transforms the steel industry, and instead, ironically,

it is precisely because we have had these laissez faire policies that we

have a decaying sector. There is massive overcapacity in the global

steel industry, but these are long-term problems. 320,000 people

were avoiding the steel in 1970, now there are 30,000, so a 90%

reduction. The answer is not to hark back to those days. You are agreeing

with Marianna there. And looking at Jaguar Land Rover, they depend on

buying cheaper steel, so we need to make the overall economy as

competitive as possible in the global market, not saddling

ourselves with overpriced steel and expensive energy. Other industries

benefit from dumped Chinese steel. Yes, they have bought in in these

companies. So more than half of the market is imported. Would you

happily see those companies lose jobs or pay more for their steel?

There is always creative destruction, so would we have

tariffs? Would you have tariffs? It is not about do you want them or

not. I think we should have free trade, that should be the solution.

Which try to police trade and make sure that people don't abuse the

system, but by and large we should enter free trade. I actually don't

think we're getting to the core of the problem. I would like to hear

Tata talk about this, when they close down some recent project in

the UK, what they said was there was no vision in this country, in that

particular case were green. I would bet that Mr Tata would not be

closing down the plant here if he thought it was a hub of new thinking

around steel, exactly in how you are talking about it, which is not just

steel as a static sector but transformative and affecting the way

other sectors operate. We don't have any industrial innovation. I want to

ask you one more question, Vince. Do you recognise a case for keeping

steel as a strategic industry in the case that a country the size of ours

needs steel to build the defence and other purposes? The key strategic

industries these days are electronic scum IT and so on, steel because we

need dreadnoughts and so on, but I don't think we should be cavalier

about accepting that we are the first major country not to make

basic steel, I would worry about that. Thank you all very much, and

I'm sorry we didn't have a member of the government here to make their

point, they didn't offer anybody to us this evening. Let's move onto

Donald Trump. He may describe himself as winning,

but he's not a winner Almost half of Republican women say

they could not imagine themselves supporting Mr Trump

in a presidential election. Last week, or was it the week

before, he was abusing His campaign manager has been

charged with battery for grabbing And today he made some comments

about abortion that have been Do you believe in

punishment for abortion? The answer is that there has to be

some form of punishment. As it happens, that line was dragged

out of him by the interviewer - he had seemed reluctant to go

that far, and he has Let's take stock of his appeal -

or lack thereof - to women voters. I'm joined by Molly Ball,

who is covering the US Presidential Something of a muddle in his line on

abortion tonight. How do you think he will play it? Donald Trump has

been all over the map on abortion and a lot of different issues, he

tends to do this, taking contradictory stands, sometimes even

in the same breath, and I think this allows people who like in to see

whatever they want to see in him. In this case, after making the

statement you just played on the tape, he then issued a statement

later saying the exact opposite, that in the case, the hypothetical

case that abortion were to be Bandini knighted States, it ought to

be the people performing the abortions who would be prosecuted

for that illegal act, not the women, who he described as the victims in

this scenario along with the life in the womb. Donald Trump has a history

of being pro-choice, meaning in favour of abortion rights, and he

has claimed that he had an epiphany sometime between then and when he

decided to run as Republican candidate for president, you really

can't be a Republican candidate and be in favour of abortion rights, but

he says he has the same position as Ronald Reagan, which is pro-life

with exceptions, he would make exceptions to allow abortions in

cases of rape and incest and when the life of the mother is in danger.

I'm assuming his views on abortion are not really what is driving these

rather poor polling ratings for him, because Republican women are keener

on Cruz that they are on Trump. What are women not liking? You mention

some of his greatest hits in terms of insulting women, but there is a

litany of statements. He has been feuding with the Fox News anchor

Megan Kelly, one of the stars of Conservative media, since the very

first debate back in August, when she asked him about his offensive

remarks about women. -- Megyn Kelly. He then went on television after

that debate and insulted her, and they have continued to feud in the

ensuing months. He frequently describes women in terms of their

appearance and derides the based on their appearance. I think a lot of

women feel that that is not just insulting to those individual women,

but to women as a whole, that he sees them as objects, and he doesn't

take them seriously as people. So you mentioned that half of

Republican women don't like him, but it is about three quarters of women

in the general electorate, and in presidential elections, women vote

at higher rates than men do, they are the majority of the electorate.

But he really doesn't seem to try, that is amazing. He carries on, he

has this form, this history, you think you might have looked at the

ratings and come up with something nice to say to women, but he doesn't

try. What is going on in his head? Is he just too sure of himself? Or

does he think, I keep winning by breaking rules, so I will keep

breaking the rules in the hope that this will pay dividends later. Fabio

Petroni to try to psychoanalyse Donald Trump, I do think anyone

knows what is going on inside his brain. -- far be it from me. But he

has this willingness to say what other people won't say, he is not

bound by political correctness, and a lot of people, particularly men,

feel emasculated by feminism and by the increasing equality of women,

and feel that in this day and age, you can't even tell a woman that she

looks pretty without having people all over you, so it is a sort of

white male identity politics that Donald Trump is speaking to, but as

you mention, he hasn't made any effort to broaden his appeal or

build bridges to people who are not in that segment. You have 12 seconds

to answer the question, will women vote Hillary Clinton? Does she grab

women? Are they all right laying around behind her? That is a big

question, but she has not managed to rally women to herself in the

Democratic primary. In 2008, she ran as a sexless candidate, but she has

run more aggressively this time, wanting to be the first woman

president, and in her primary against Bernie Sanders, young women

have not flocked to have as a result. Molly, thank you very much

indeed. The President of Afghanistan,

Ahshraf Ghani, has been in office for 18 months now, never attracting

quite as much attention in the West It may be good news that the world

is paying less attention to Afghanistan, but there

is a continued outflow of the country's citizens keen

to escape to richer nations. A quarter of the Mediterranean Sea

arrivals so far this year have been The BBC's Yalda Hakim managed to get

an interview with Ashraf Ghani about the migrant problem,

and began by asking him why there has been an exodus

of people from his country. This is one of the most

connected societies on earth. Because it became

a country of refugees. In Europe, in the United States,

in North America, Australia. We have at least a million

people who have settled. They have a million ties that bind

them with others so they pull. We're very proud of our Afghans,

they are now hyphenated Afghans. Particularly the social model

in Europe, the social welfare model, the welfare state, has

done well by Afghans. In Germany, for instance,

they have done extraordinary things. The push factors are,

a war has been imposed upon us. The departure of not just

international troops but the contractors took away

a million upper middle-class people This is a country where,

for 15 years, a lot of blood and treasure has gone in to create

a stable society. Sure, but it has also created one

of the most corrupt sets The inheritance of that is 41%

of people living below poverty. Yes, it is a country that has become

the platform for a regional We are at war but we're

not at civil war. The war between Afghans is a very

small component of a regional Al-Qaeda, unfortunately,

has gone deep and dark, Daesh is active here,

as it has done atrocious things. When I warned about the fear

of Daesh, it was not heeded, They said that this country

would become a graveyard for Daesh. But we also have the greatest

medium-term threat. Massive numbers of Pakistani Taliban

are being transposed Why, then, are Europeans

sending Afghans back, saying that they are economic

migrants, that they only come to Europe because of

poverty and not war? The social contract in Europe

vis-a-vis refugees was articulated In a period of liberalism's heyday

and welfare strength. That model, unfortunately,

is being re-negotiated. But there are also people

fleeing persecution. 11,000 people were

killed in this country. Did you ask the people of the UK

when Hitler was in the ascent Please understand, we have

to make a commitment. 549 young men and women graduated

from the military academy. They are making a commitment

to defend this country. Others on whom we have spent

hundreds of millions of dollars who want to leave under

the slightest pressure. If you want to have a country,

you need to have the will. It is not the slightest

pressure, though. In the last year we have

seen the worst violence. They are making that

dangerous journey. They are impoverishing

their families in order Because that journey was based

on false assumptions. Do we stand up for our right

to breathe and our right to live Countries do not survive

by their best attempting to flee. My goal is to make sure

that my people live If we don't stand up in the face

of the threat, and the threats are very real, my life

is threatened everyday. I go to different

parts of Afghanistan. But you have the protection that

other Afghans don't. You think when rockets

are fired at you, you have When bombs are thrown at you,

you have protection against it? If I had that sense,

I would surround myself Genuine is always better

than fake, but is fake better A topic discussed in many

different areas of life, The technology of 3D printing drawn

from multiple photographs means we have the power to create detailed

replicas more easily This, in fact, is a replica

in the making - a monumental scale reconstruction of the Triumphal Arch

from Palmyra's Temple of Bel. The real arch was destroyed by Isis

when they occupied the ancient city. This one, built in blocks, will be

installed on Trafalgar Square, then it goes to New York

and then Palmyra itself. So how far can replica substitute

for a destroyed past? Should you even contemplate putting

replicas on the sites Joining me now in the studio

is Dr Alexy Karenowska, the director of technology

at the Institute of And from Edinburgh is author

James Crawford, whose book Fallen Glory tells the story of some

of the world's greatest Tell us about your group. How well

can you make a replica? How realistic? Very realistic indeed,

our processes or a combination of architectural 3D printing and 3D

machine work can reproduce objects to the level of sub millimetre

precision. There are a series of surface techniques we can use to

reproduce the effects of weathering and ageing and the general

appearance. And the material, not plastic, what is it? We are working

on technology which combines real stone, the arch in Trafalgar Square

will be marble and Geo composite materials, artificial stones from 3D

printing. What is the purpose? There are many, in the context of

large-scale reconstruction, what we're doing is exploring

technologies that we believe can make a real difference

reconstructing regions like Syria which have been badly damaged and

these technologies open the door for producing a way of producing and

preserving the cultural heritage, the tangible and intangible aspects

of that. And really keeping the living history of these areas alive.

James, does this excite you? It does. The technology is fantastic,

it is or inspiring in the true sense of that phrase and my concern is not

what shall happen in Trafalgar Square and Times Square, and they

will be visiting, it is the idea of reconstructing on the actual site of

Palymyra itself. Tell me why you would not want this archway to go

back to where it was before Isis destroyed it? One of the things that

it brings to mind is the theory that comes from robotics and in the

1970s, the uncanny Valley, that machines will get to the point where

they were so close to humans, instead of us empathising, we

respond to them with revulsion and there is a danger with this

reconstruction of archaeology that we might respond to Palmyra in the

same way, but it becomes uncanny and what a tragic end for this city, but

when we visit it, we feel this sense of unease. Why would we feel that?

You will see the arch in Palymyra, you will barely be able to tell that

it was not the original, that has some subtle effect? Very much so,

you will barely be able to tell and you might not realise it but as time

goes by, that response, this concept of revulsion and that has happened

before, in 1900, an English antiquarian bought up the site at

Crete and brought this with -- rebuilt it with reinforced concrete

and some people thought this was fantastic but even while, when he

went on a Mediterranean cruise, and visited the site, he thought this

was a place of oppressive wickedness so there is a danger when you engage

in this process of reconstruction, it can have a negative impact. Is

the plan to put the reconstructed arch back with the original was or

to put it in a museum 500 metres away? Several things are important,

the overall aim of this project is to move towards on-site

reconstruction of the installation in Trafalgar Square and India work

or a demonstration of this technology and in response to the

point that were made, I would agree that it is extremely important that

we understand that the reconstruction is not the original

and it would be wrong to put objects on the site and claim that they are

something they are not. But I think it is also important to realise that

there is a huge tragedy in the complete loss of these physical

objects and yet the physical objects themselves are not the only element

of the cultural heritage they represent. I think that we have to

balance here respect for the site but also making sure we do not get

caught up too much in what we might describe as the romance of the

Roman, it is important that we are not too attached to the physical

objects. We can talk about this longer but we don't have the time.

Thank you both very much. That is all we have time for, Kirsty will be

here tomorrow. Good night. Temperatures falling out there under

largely clear skies and a touch of frost first thing tomorrow, showers

over south-east of Scotland and North East England and they could be

heavy through the day with the few showers developing elsewhere. Some

lively ones are parts of Northern Ireland staying dry with sunshine

and reaching double figures, largely dry in northern Scotland and we will

start the day before freezing