01/04/2016 Newsnight


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01/04/2016

Greece begins deporting migrants to Turkey. There is a look at a new national minimum wage. And are people in the UK getting enough sleep? Emily Maitlis presents.


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Tonight, Europe prepares to send hundreds of migrants back to Turkey

:00:07.:00:10.

as Turkey is accused of sending migrants back to Syria.

:00:11.:00:13.

Does this plan stand any chance of working?

:00:14.:00:15.

"A move that will lead to job losses and cost businesses their chance

:00:16.:00:26.

of survival," - they said it about the introduction

:00:27.:00:28.

of the minimum wage in the late '90s.

:00:29.:00:33.

Has history taught us not to fear the new living wage?

:00:34.:00:35.

And will you stay with us long enough to hear you're not

:00:36.:00:38.

Steve Smith clambers into his sleep pod and throws the whole idea

:00:39.:00:42.

of what constitutes "a good night" out the window.

:00:43.:00:44.

Shall we have a moment of privacy again?

:00:45.:00:46.

The world doesn't need to know everything, do they?

:00:47.:00:49.

Europe is preparing to return hundreds of people

:00:50.:01:06.

Save the Children are preparing a legal challenge. They believe the

:01:07.:01:19.

government is acting against EU law in deporting refugees.

:01:20.:01:21.

aimed at ending uncontrolled migration into the continent.

:01:22.:01:25.

The drive - which will be put into action on Monday -

:01:26.:01:30.

will see Syrian and other migrants sent back to Turkey as part

:01:31.:01:32.

of a controversial repatriation deal signed between the EU

:01:33.:01:35.

Today however Amnesty International accused Turkey of sending thousands

:01:36.:01:38.

of people trying to flee Syria back into the war-racked country

:01:39.:01:40.

So does the plan stand any chance of working in a way

:01:41.:01:44.

As the first deportations loom, tensions are rising in the Greek

:01:45.:01:50.

Today on the island of Chios those awaiting their fate

:01:51.:02:01.

broke out of their centre to mount a protest at the port.

:02:02.:02:06.

Aid organisations are sounding the alarm, and trying to frustrate the

:02:07.:02:14.

deportations. We will be setting out our legal considerations paper which

:02:15.:02:20.

is about nine pages long, which explains very clearly our position

:02:21.:02:26.

about which safeguards, guarantees need to be put in place both in

:02:27.:02:31.

Greece and in Turkey, in order for the deal to be acceptable. Tonight

:02:32.:02:37.

Save the Children Todd us they were preparing a legal challenge. -- told

:02:38.:02:43.

us. We consider the application of this new deal as to be unlawful and

:02:44.:02:54.

unjustified and we will explore all options to safeguard the rights of

:02:55.:03:00.

these children. In a political way, in a legal way, in everywhere they

:03:01.:03:05.

which we consider appropriate. But always in the best interests of the

:03:06.:03:11.

children. On the Macedonian border, at Idomeni, meanwhile, some of the

:03:12.:03:17.

50,000 now stuck in Greece while away their days, forlornly hoping

:03:18.:03:20.

that the frontier ahead of them might be reopened. This is no way to

:03:21.:03:29.

live, this is no way. Is this how we will end up? It's getting hotter,

:03:30.:03:32.

there is more disease and lights, God help us. Greek nationalists have

:03:33.:03:38.

been urging the government to clear the camp too. The Immigration

:03:39.:03:43.

Minister gave this impassioned response in Parliament today.

:03:44.:03:50.

TRANSLATION: We signed the best deal under these specific circumstances,

:03:51.:03:53.

it is a good deal because for the first time, for the first time after

:03:54.:03:58.

the European Commission failed, a legal path has been created for

:03:59.:04:04.

refugees to come into Europe. It's getting tougher for migrants. Nato

:04:05.:04:10.

has been operating since the 25th of February. Passing through Greece got

:04:11.:04:14.

markedly harder on the 5th of March when Macedonia closed its border to

:04:15.:04:18.

migrants. Since the 20th of March when the EU deal with Turkey went

:04:19.:04:23.

into effect, those arriving in Greece are liable to be sent back.

:04:24.:04:27.

Turkey has also been forcing some Syrians back across their common

:04:28.:04:32.

frontier. Yet people are still going to Greece, despite the fact that

:04:33.:04:35.

getting through to northern Europe would now appear to be much harder.

:04:36.:04:41.

Some of these people have already begun their trip. Months ago. We

:04:42.:04:49.

talked to them and they started out from Syria, Afghanistan, Somalia,

:04:50.:04:51.

Bangladesh, three or four months ago. Also they have been exploited,

:04:52.:04:58.

they have given all of the money they have, and they think that if we

:04:59.:05:02.

come to Greece we will find a solution. Is the EU - Turkey

:05:03.:05:08.

agreement working? The picture is mixed. On Greek islands like these,

:05:09.:05:14.

there has been a big drop in migrant arrivals during the past two weeks.

:05:15.:05:21.

But on Lesbos a smaller fall, with hundreds still landing. Overall the

:05:22.:05:25.

number arriving in Greece is down significantly, but there have been

:05:26.:05:33.

ebbs before due to bad weather. That said, European governments can be

:05:34.:05:35.

expected to defend the deal with Turkey as their best hope yet in the

:05:36.:05:40.

crisis. The European Union will invest heavily to make sure there is

:05:41.:05:45.

a fair legal process, it may be expedited and we may not recognise

:05:46.:05:49.

it as being fair, but they will stand behind that quite firmly

:05:50.:05:53.

because at the end of the day, this unregulated migration flow has

:05:54.:05:57.

rocked the continent to its foundations. Next week will be a

:05:58.:06:04.

real test of will, not just for the Greek government, and the EU

:06:05.:06:09.

agencies assisting with deportation, but also a test for those trapped in

:06:10.:06:15.

limbo, and a wider world watching, whether Europe can finally regain

:06:16.:06:22.

control over its external borders. We were hoping to speak to the Greek

:06:23.:06:24.

government as well. We can speak to Medecins Sans

:06:25.:06:27.

Frontieres' Michele Telaro live from the Greek island of

:06:28.:06:30.

Lesbos, where he is the project

:06:31.:06:31.

coordinator. It's nice of you to join us. Do you

:06:32.:06:36.

agree with Save the Children that there may be a legal case against

:06:37.:06:39.

what the Greek government is doing there? Yes, definitely. As you said,

:06:40.:06:46.

the aim of the agreement is clear, to stop illegal immigration. And as

:06:47.:06:52.

a humanitarian organisation we have nothing to say about that, what we

:06:53.:06:56.

see here is that conditions are getting worse and worse. At the end

:06:57.:07:02.

of the day disagreement is just creating suffering for these people.

:07:03.:07:06.

Am I right in thinking you are now not cooperating with the Greek

:07:07.:07:12.

authorities? We are still cooperating with the Greek

:07:13.:07:19.

authorities but we have been giving assistance to people in need here.

:07:20.:07:28.

Offering assistance when they arrive other such activities. From your

:07:29.:07:38.

position on the ground, is it possible to implement this EU plan

:07:39.:07:41.

successfully? It depends what you mean by implement and successful. Of

:07:42.:07:47.

course we speak about 500 people who could be deported from Monday. I

:07:48.:07:53.

really can't see how it would be possible. If we want to... If the

:07:54.:07:59.

European Union wants to do it in a decent and legal way it would be

:08:00.:08:02.

really difficult to send back everyone to Turkey as they say,

:08:03.:08:06.

because people still have the right to apply for asylum here. Each

:08:07.:08:11.

application should be considered individually according to... Each

:08:12.:08:21.

individual should have their rights granted. A lot of people want your

:08:22.:08:22.

attention. Thank you for your time. John Dalhuisen from Amnesty

:08:23.:08:25.

International joins me. That is the crux of it, doing it in

:08:26.:08:32.

a decent and legal way is where it gets difficult. Do you think there

:08:33.:08:37.

is a chance that it can work when it starts on Monday? Pragmatically and

:08:38.:08:41.

practically it is very difficult to see on the Greek side how they could

:08:42.:08:45.

have the infrastructure and procedures in place to allow people

:08:46.:08:48.

to go through individual assessments. On the Greek side it

:08:49.:08:52.

would be incredibly difficult and that's not even factoring in four

:08:53.:08:56.

now what's happening on the Turkish side. Even if you went to a perfect

:08:57.:09:00.

process rather than the sham one we are likely to see you could come to

:09:01.:09:04.

the conclusion that Turkey is not in fact a safe country to which to send

:09:05.:09:09.

asylum seekers, it is not safe for Iraqis and Afghans who have no

:09:10.:09:14.

access to asylum procedures in Turkey in practice. And increasingly

:09:15.:09:18.

it is not safe for Syrians either, as we documented today they are

:09:19.:09:22.

being returned in ever growing numbers to Syria from provinces in

:09:23.:09:26.

the east of the country. Turkey has consistently denied claims that it

:09:27.:09:31.

is returning people. Do you have evidence of numbers of Syrians being

:09:32.:09:36.

returned? I can say with the utmost confidence we have documented

:09:37.:09:38.

several cases in the past few weeks alone. How many are we talking?

:09:39.:09:45.

Three or four groups of individuals and family members we have spoken to

:09:46.:09:48.

on the Turkish side and those who have returned to Syria that we spoke

:09:49.:09:52.

to in Syria who have been torn asunder having been picked up in

:09:53.:10:00.

Turkey. I can think of three small children with their brother in a

:10:01.:10:04.

park who were picked up and taken on a bus back in groups of between 100

:10:05.:10:11.

and 200. It is an open secret. OK, we have got this, as I say, the

:10:12.:10:13.

government has refuted this in we have got this, as I say, the

:10:14.:10:17.

Turkey. If you are saying that this is happening then presumably you

:10:18.:10:24.

don't believe that Turkey can be a viable partner in resolving this

:10:25.:10:28.

crisis? Certainly not right now. That's not to say it isn't possible

:10:29.:10:33.

to engage with Turkey to construct a common asylum space that effectively

:10:34.:10:37.

integrates Turkey into a common European asylum space. What do you

:10:38.:10:42.

mean by a common asylum space? Not right now, but the EU is not trying

:10:43.:10:47.

to incentivise Turkey to improve its asylum system and improve the

:10:48.:10:52.

protection it is offering so that it could lawfully send people back.

:10:53.:10:56.

It's incentivising the opposite, because it does not want to take

:10:57.:11:01.

people in, Turkey can be increasingly restrictive itself.

:11:02.:11:04.

When you hear about the drop of numbers that Mark

:11:05.:11:07.

When you hear about the drop of real diminishing in the number of

:11:08.:11:10.

people trying to cross, does that say that whatever is happening on

:11:11.:11:13.

this side the message is getting through that it's not the right way

:11:14.:11:18.

to come? As was reported it is difficult to judge over a short span

:11:19.:11:20.

because the weather hasn't been particularly good. It has been the

:11:21.:11:29.

case that there has been a drum -- a demonstrable drop. We are seeing a

:11:30.:11:33.

rise in numbers coming through the central Mediterranean route. At the

:11:34.:11:36.

moment it's a little the fickle to see how it will pan out. The

:11:37.:11:41.

likelihood is if the EU proceeds as it intends to win a deal that is

:11:42.:11:45.

almost certainly illegal we will see a drop in numbers. -- it is

:11:46.:11:50.

difficult to see how it will pan out. The cost will be for the

:11:51.:11:55.

integrity of Europe and the refugees who suffer, however, that will be

:11:56.:11:59.

high indeed. Thank you very much indeed.

:12:00.:12:00.

It was considered dangerous - virtually seditious -

:12:01.:12:02.

Tony Blair's ?3.60 minimum wage was introduced in 1999

:12:03.:12:09.

to cries from business leaders it would ramp costs and deter anyone

:12:10.:12:12.

But the world, it seems, didn't end when he did.

:12:13.:12:17.

perhaps by coinicidence, perhaps by curious design -

:12:18.:12:21.

George Osborne has just signed off the new living wage

:12:22.:12:25.

Critics this time are making the same argument -

:12:26.:12:29.

that it will squeeze small business, lead to job losses or even that it

:12:30.:12:32.

will encourage more foreign workers into the country.

:12:33.:12:34.

Or should we heed warnings of what may be a step too far

:12:35.:12:38.

The idea of a minimum wage, let alone a national living wage,

:12:39.:12:45.

wasn't always so wasn't always so uncontroversial.

:12:46.:12:47.

You know perfectly well that what you're talking about is

:12:48.:12:53.

Is ?2 an hour acceptable to you as a very wealthy man?

:12:54.:13:00.

It is nothing to do with me being a wealthy man.

:13:01.:13:02.

It is entirely a matter of what people are prepared

:13:03.:13:07.

to accept in the circumstances of getting a job.

:13:08.:13:09.

Yet it was a Conservative Chancellor who last year announced this.

:13:10.:13:12.

Britain deserves a pay rise and Britain is getting a pay rise.

:13:13.:13:18.

I am today introducing a new national living wage.

:13:19.:13:20.

The national living wage increased by 50p from ?6.70 to ?7.20

:13:21.:13:27.

It's pledged to rise to ?9 per hour by 2020.

:13:28.:13:35.

That's less than that which the Living Wage Foundation says

:13:36.:13:38.

is needed, currently ?8.25 an hour outside of London

:13:39.:13:40.

is this a price Britain can afford to pay?

:13:41.:13:52.

Joining me now, Dia Chakravarty, from TaxPayers' Alliance,

:13:53.:13:56.

Faiza Shaheen, director of Class - a think tank,

:13:57.:13:58.

and Torsten Bell, Director of the Resolution Foundation.

:13:59.:14:02.

It is nice of you all to come in. Do you think you can get behind this?

:14:03.:14:11.

It is very risky, as is any policy which tries to intervene with the

:14:12.:14:18.

market. There is a cost of living crisis in this country and their to

:14:19.:14:23.

help those in the lower income brackets, and the government knows

:14:24.:14:28.

exactly what to do. One thing it has consistently failed to do, something

:14:29.:14:31.

we have been campaigning for for a long time, is to raise national

:14:32.:14:36.

insurance in line with income tax, which would immediately take a lot

:14:37.:14:43.

of people completely out of taxes on income. That is the policy the

:14:44.:14:47.

government needs to focus on. Progressive taxes, like fuel duty

:14:48.:14:53.

and so on. So it is the wrong lever? I think this wage increase is

:14:54.:14:58.

well-deserved, if you think about the context of public spending cuts

:14:59.:15:01.

and low wages for a long time for this group of people. If you think

:15:02.:15:05.

about the way in which this group will see some increase in incomes,

:15:06.:15:10.

this is definitely a positive move in a first step to a progressive

:15:11.:15:14.

economy, the type of economy which delivers for all. But this idea of a

:15:15.:15:20.

national living wage, we know there are different costs in the north and

:15:21.:15:23.

south. How can there be a national some? There are calculations that

:15:24.:15:30.

count across the country. We have to remember that average housing costs

:15:31.:15:36.

have increased by 7%, energy price bills are going up, food prices, and

:15:37.:15:42.

this has been severely affected by these, this group. To put it into

:15:43.:15:49.

context, can we afford this as an economy? It is only 0.6% of the wage

:15:50.:15:55.

bill by 2020, so of course we can afford it for the economy. We are

:15:56.:15:59.

one of the lower paid leading economies in the world. Is that the

:16:00.:16:04.

kind of economy we want to be? No. But for some sectors and employers,

:16:05.:16:08.

this will be hard to deal with. If you are in the hospitality sector,

:16:09.:16:13.

this is a 3.4% increase, and that is a lot. But are we happy with

:16:14.:16:17.

carrying on with one in five workers being low paid? The answer should be

:16:18.:16:24.

no. We have to decide if it is worth the pain. France has 11%

:16:25.:16:27.

unemployment and a higher minimum wage. Let's be careful about certain

:16:28.:16:33.

assumptions that a certain minimum wage rate means a certain

:16:34.:16:37.

unemployment rate. New Zealand and Australia have similar rates to

:16:38.:16:41.

France and have lower unemployment. I agree with all of those points.

:16:42.:16:46.

Housing prices are ridiculous in this country. Why? Because we have a

:16:47.:16:50.

highly regulated housing industry. The government is to blame. We need

:16:51.:16:56.

to deregulate that industry. Do you think there is a correlation between

:16:57.:17:01.

minimum wage and unemployment? There must be, or we would be saying, why

:17:02.:17:08.

are we not increasing it to ?20? It must be basic economics to

:17:09.:17:12.

understand there will be a correlation and some economists are

:17:13.:17:14.

saying we will lose 60,000 jobs by 2020. The OP are, where that figure

:17:15.:17:22.

comes from, don't say 60,000 people will lose their jobs by 2020. They

:17:23.:17:27.

say that employment, which they projected to rise, will be 60,000

:17:28.:17:30.

lower than it otherwise would be, which is very different. So it is

:17:31.:17:37.

putting a value on people's entry to the job market. There was so much

:17:38.:17:41.

scaremongering with the minimum wage. We have to be careful. These

:17:42.:17:46.

aren't massive increases when you think about increases in living

:17:47.:17:50.

costs. I don't think the job losses is true. I was saving British public

:17:51.:17:55.

deserves more. On top of the minimum wage and an increase in that, we

:17:56.:17:58.

should have a real living wage. I should be saying we would have do

:17:59.:18:06.

something to address inequality. Is it a slight embarrassment for you,

:18:07.:18:11.

from the left, to have a Conservative Chancellor bring this

:18:12.:18:16.

in? Dime it is a pleasant surprise for many people, unions, those on

:18:17.:18:18.

the left that have been fighting hard to see increases in wages. It

:18:19.:18:24.

is a win for those on low incomes, but it isn't enough. It isn't a

:18:25.:18:30.

panacea. It doesn't solve all of the problems for this group. They will

:18:31.:18:33.

look at their bills coming in and going out and this is a small rise.

:18:34.:18:39.

But presumably employers will do the same and if they are paying more on

:18:40.:18:44.

the wage, aren't they going to take it off books or holiday? Businesses

:18:45.:18:48.

have a lot of options. In surveys we have done, 30% of the most common

:18:49.:18:53.

answer from businesses is that they will look to increase productivity.

:18:54.:18:58.

We don't have the most productive country. We have the biggest gap

:18:59.:19:02.

with the G7 average we have had in 20 years. There are things we can

:19:03.:19:07.

do. Well some businesses have to make difficult decisions about the

:19:08.:19:11.

hours people work etc? Yes, but their choices in politics. My worry

:19:12.:19:20.

is, while this policy may give George Osborne some short-term

:19:21.:19:23.

brownie points politically, in the long run it will harm exactly the

:19:24.:19:26.

sort of people it is intending to help foster that's exactly what was

:19:27.:19:35.

said in 1999. If we are looking at productivity, who is going to lose

:19:36.:19:39.

out? The most vulnerable. That is old-fashioned economics. The

:19:40.:19:44.

consensus of the economics profession is that, since the 1990s,

:19:45.:19:48.

wages in the minimum wage would harm employment. What is excessive? Let

:19:49.:19:57.

me give you an example. Britain has very cheap Labour compared to a lot

:19:58.:20:01.

of the world and as a result lots of businesses have chosen business

:20:02.:20:04.

models which are low investment and low productivity so we have a low

:20:05.:20:09.

productivity economy overall. Slightly higher pay packets,

:20:10.:20:12.

slightly higher wages at the bottom will, for some businesses at the

:20:13.:20:18.

margin, encourage them to invest in training and management practices.

:20:19.:20:21.

You don't believe there are people who are unemployed saying, if it

:20:22.:20:27.

wasn't for the minimum wage, I could get a job. That isn't the experience

:20:28.:20:31.

here, in the US, in academic literature. I think there is a

:20:32.:20:37.

broader structural point, which is that we see a growing number of

:20:38.:20:41.

low-paid jobs, more than other high income countries. It is about what

:20:42.:20:47.

comes first. If you increase page, it makes company owners think about

:20:48.:20:53.

what they need to do with their employees to increase productivity.

:20:54.:20:57.

Last question, does it matter if this country becomes more attractive

:20:58.:21:01.

to EU migrants for the living wage? Is that good or bad? I think that is

:21:02.:21:08.

a side point. It won't be what a lot of people. This will help British

:21:09.:21:15.

workers in work. And it may invite other people in and encourage others

:21:16.:21:21.

to join, but that isn't the point. I am all for helping British workers,

:21:22.:21:25.

but I think we should go for the safer option, which is to cut these

:21:26.:21:29.

high costs, such as fuel duty, energy prices, the situation around

:21:30.:21:35.

housing. That is how we should tackle this, not tampering with the

:21:36.:21:36.

market. Thank you. It's a brave woman who stands before

:21:37.:21:39.

a Newsnight audience late on a Friday night

:21:40.:21:41.

and talks about sleep. Today - on the back of a health

:21:42.:21:43.

warning from the Royal Society that we're all getting too little -

:21:44.:21:48.

we thought we'd take a look at the whole question

:21:49.:21:51.

of what - historically - has constituted

:21:52.:21:53.

a good night's sleep. Easy to think, perhaps,

:21:54.:21:55.

that the Amish get it right - and that pre-industrialised nations

:21:56.:21:57.

knew what nine hours' But in terms of the science

:21:58.:21:59.

of sleep, that could all be dopey. Talking of which,

:22:00.:22:03.

here's Stephen Smith. At Newsnight, we worry

:22:04.:22:11.

about you nodding off. Now don't be like that - we mean,

:22:12.:22:13.

are you getting enough kip? We are so sleep-deprived

:22:14.:22:17.

we are ready to go whenever there is a chance

:22:18.:22:20.

of a sit down, so often at the least

:22:21.:22:22.

opportune moment. And spare a thought for

:22:23.:22:25.

politicians themselves. After a good chunk of sleep

:22:26.:22:28.

when I'm out of here, Even after we are done

:22:29.:22:34.

with the presidency. But I am going to take three,

:22:35.:22:43.

four months We have come to Bucks to test

:22:44.:22:45.

the latest thing in power napping, They are meant for single

:22:46.:22:53.

occupancy, # When you're laying down

:22:54.:22:56.

next to me... We are two young men,

:22:57.:23:06.

just having a companionable nap. If that's wrong,

:23:07.:23:14.

I don't want to be right. Well, we have sold in 11

:23:15.:23:19.

countries so far and it's quite fashionable

:23:20.:23:43.

and right to look at napping because it is restorative.

:23:44.:23:47.

And that's what the companies use them for.

:23:48.:23:49.

Obviously you can overnight in them as well.

:23:50.:23:52.

So if you ever get a tube strike in central London

:23:53.:23:54.

and you can't get home, pop in the pod.

:23:55.:23:57.

In the 18th century, we, for example slept in two phases,

:23:58.:24:00.

then perhaps we would wake for a couple of hours.

:24:01.:24:04.

It was often a time used to pray, etc.

:24:05.:24:07.

Then we would have another four hours and then we would go

:24:08.:24:10.

about our day, but that was largely because when the lights went down,

:24:11.:24:13.

when the sun went down, at sort of eight in the evening, say,

:24:14.:24:17.

there was not much else you could do.

:24:18.:24:22.

We also make what we called pods for podtels,

:24:23.:24:26.

they are the modern version of the hostel.

:24:27.:24:28.

And we have got one on the south coast.

:24:29.:24:36.

A pod is a big improvement on the old iron bunk bed.

:24:37.:24:43.

The average adult sleeps for 6.8 hours a night but most of us say

:24:44.:24:52.

we would like a good hour on top of that.

:24:53.:24:55.

Getting regular, good quality sleep seems to play a vital role

:24:56.:24:57.

it increases our risk of, say, obesity.

:24:58.:25:03.

It also increases the risk of things such as diabetes

:25:04.:25:06.

With this research we now know that sleep is actually

:25:07.:25:14.

really important and it's often quoted as being some of the most

:25:15.:25:17.

powerful performance enhancers known to humankind.

:25:18.:25:22.

So where did this idea of the "right amount" of sleep come from?

:25:23.:25:40.

from the Institute of Sleep and Circadian Neuroscience.

:25:41.:25:53.

That is a wonderful title. I know you have done an extensive study of

:25:54.:25:59.

a huge number of people looking at their sleep patterns. Do you think

:26:00.:26:03.

there is a right amount of sleep for an average human? It doesn't work

:26:04.:26:11.

quite like that, but the answer is, yes, you are on average, seven to

:26:12.:26:14.

eight hours is a good amount of sleep on a regular basis. Is there

:26:15.:26:21.

such a thing as an early bird or a night owl? Does that exist in our

:26:22.:26:26.

DNA? Yes, there is. One of the most interesting things is that, at every

:26:27.:26:32.

hour of the day, there is someone who is naturally awake. The

:26:33.:26:38.

difference between the earliest, shall we say, a morning person and

:26:39.:26:43.

the latest evening person is about eight hours, a huge difference. So

:26:44.:26:47.

the people who are watching this programme now are much more likely

:26:48.:26:52.

to unite people. What does that tell you, in terms of the way we

:26:53.:26:59.

construct our society? Does it say that a certain group? Yes, at the

:27:00.:27:05.

moment, favouritism goes towards the early riser, so they are getting all

:27:06.:27:10.

the worms, they are being praised for being hard-working and many

:27:11.:27:13.

things which, to be fair, they don't deserve. The majority of people, who

:27:14.:27:18.

would like to sleep later in the day, they are having to get up

:27:19.:27:23.

early. So, at the moment, the people who really suffer are the people who

:27:24.:27:28.

are night owls, the people who are night-time people. When you say

:27:29.:27:34.

suffer, can you not just talk yourself into the right rhythm?

:27:35.:27:38.

Presumably that comes with a bit Vista mark it is genetic. --

:27:39.:27:47.

presumably that comes with habit. One of the problems we have is that

:27:48.:27:54.

they're fixed times. I have the mistake of saying that starting

:27:55.:28:00.

times for employment should really be 10am, not as early as they are at

:28:01.:28:05.

the moment. What do you think would happen if that were right? You would

:28:06.:28:09.

lose the productivity of your early birds, wouldn't you? It isn't

:28:10.:28:14.

straightforward. At the bottom of the pile are the people who are

:28:15.:28:19.

night people. Instead of losing one hour of work, they are losing two or

:28:20.:28:25.

three, so between 24 and 30. There are people out there who, as night

:28:26.:28:30.

people, are losing five hours every time they turn up at eight or 9am.

:28:31.:28:35.

Interstate was backward society, with a lot for shift work, can't you

:28:36.:28:39.

say that people find their own rhythms and work according to what

:28:40.:28:47.

they need? -- into Dave's society. That doesn't happen. If you have a

:28:48.:28:52.

genetic clock inside you which is telling you when to go to sleep, you

:28:53.:28:57.

can't train it. The key player is natural sunlight, so the people who

:28:58.:29:00.

have real problems of people on night shifts. Of course, this is

:29:01.:29:05.

well-known, that they are much more at risk of accidents and they have

:29:06.:29:10.

tremendous problems trying to sleep at the wrong time of day. That is

:29:11.:29:15.

one extreme. At the other extreme, there are people as the producer up

:29:16.:29:20.

here in Newcastle has been telling me awake quite naturally at 5:30am.

:29:21.:29:27.

Lucky boy! Thank you very much for joining us.

:29:28.:29:29.

We shall let you gracefully dribble into your

:29:30.:29:33.

empty glass and forget to turn the telly off

:29:34.:29:35.

But spare a thought before you go for our brave team of night owls

:29:36.:29:39.

right around the clock, ready at a second's notice,

:29:40.:29:43.

In between, a wet start for England and Wales. It will be out as it goes

:29:44.:30:51.

back into southern Scotland and

:30:52.:30:52.