15/04/2016 Newsnight

At the end of a week of more questions about the financial

and sexual conduct of politicians and the rumour mill in overdrive

about a super injunction, what do we have a right to know?

Tonight we have more on the financial affairs of Labour

And we'll be talking to the deputy editor of the Sunday Times

and a lawyer for Hacked Off about privacy.

It's a parent's nightmare - having your child taken

Have authorities in Norway been too zealous in their approach

to child protection, separating families who have

"Marius, I think they are going to take the baby."

And, on the eve of Record Store Day - why does

In the Newsnight studio a rare beast - a man who cuts

On Newsnight last night we brought you another story of financial

morality to add to the rich mix of the Panama Papers.

This one concerns not princes, prime ministers and presidents,

but a Labour MP, several instances of non-disclosure of very

large sums of money and the Labour Party hierarchy,

who, when John Sweeney repeatedly asked for an explanation,

Ian Lavery has been the MP for Wansbeck since 2010, and before

that he was the General Secretary of the National Union

As a union official he should have declared his preferential union

As an MP he should have declared some very large redundancy figures,

but the figures he did declare don't add up.

Politicians of right an left are struggling to catch up with the age

of transparency. Date dump, embarrassed David Cameron

of his father's tax arrange. In Panama. Online disclosures led to

Culture Secretary John Whittingdale's outing his own

unusual relationship, with a dominatrix.

Labour's Ian Lavery seems reluctant to provide complete answers over his

redundancy and mortgage arrangements.

The books of the union he used to run suggest it paid for his

mortgage. Yesterday, we asked him a simple question, did he pay the

mortgage off? Did you pay it off? The union... And again. Did you pay

off your mortgage? My mortgage was paid off... And again. Had a

financial agreement which was acceptable to both parties.

Tonight, Mr Lavery got back to us releasing the following statement.

The arrangement for accommodation was common for co-union officials

across the coalfield. That doesn't answer the question, did he pay off

the mortgage? Tonight, Mr Lavery faces fresh questions. Firstly, over

whether his mortgage should have been declared on the union's books.

Well the statement and annual return requires all benefits, and salary to

be set out that are being derived from union funds, therefore, if it

is right that that is a benefit and certainly a subsidised mortgage

could be well be regarded as a benefit, then in those

circumstances, I think it should have been set out on the statement

and annual return. There is another weird thing. Last

night just before Newsnight went on air, a Labour official told us to

find out about the mortgage, all we had do was get in touch with the NUM

North East area based in Durham. Today we did so, and they told us

they had nothing to do with Mr Lavery's mortgage.

Mr Lavery is already under investigation by the Parliamentary

commissioner for standards, over his failure to declare 62,00 pounds in

redundancy payments he received from 2010-2012. And then there is the

mystery 85,00 pounds, redundancy payment, which pops up on the

union's books in 2013. Here is what he said about it, when we challenged

him on it yesterday. So the 85,00 pounds, it is a mystery. Well it is

not a mystery to me. I haven't got any control. I left in 2010. I have

told you two time, I will tell you three, four times I don't recognise

that payment. You don't recognise that payment. So it's a mystery

payment? You can call it whatever you want. I will tell you that... It

is given to, it says in the books, payment for former, past General

Secretary redundancy costs. You have one on me, I haven't seen the book

since I left in 2010. To be fair he did tell us he did receive what he

called the final payment of my redundancy in 2013. But not how

much. Did Mr Lavery record this 2013

redundancy payment to the Parliamentary register of members'

interests? He did not. So, big questions remain for Mr Lavery and

the Labour Party. How much was the redundancy payment in 2013? If it

wasn't ?85,000? Why didn't he declare it to Parliament? And how

does Jeremy Corbyn square calls for more prance transz barn is when he

has a trade union spokesperson who refuses to tell us clearly, whether

Well, the question of how much people have the right to know

about the lives of public figures has loomed large, not just for MPs,

The decision on whether to lift an injunction on reporting of one

well-known celebrity's alleged extramarital affairs will be given

Here to discuss the difficulty of finding a balance between press

freedom and the right to a private life are Sarah Baxter,

deputy editor of the Sunday Times, and privacy lawyer

Good evening to both of you. Where do you stand on what people have the

right to know about people in public life? Sarah? I stand in favour of

maximum freedom, and the right to know. I don't think we should be

too, we shouldn't sensor ourselves and think, this story is not quite

right for the public, I think the public pay good money to read good

stories and our buyers should be in Fay of disclosure. This is? Terms of

politician, public figure, who say one thing and do another. Where is

your line in the sand about who you report on is this We make the

judgments all the time but pretty much even in this world says one

thing and does another if you look closely, with celebrities, I used to

edit the Sunday Times magazine, you wouldn't believe the amount of PR

control that goes on. Every day I was in hand-to-hand combat with PRs

saying you can't say this. They would try, we were one of the few

publications that wouldn't given copy approval, so then they turn

round and say hang on, when we have a story that is interesting to

reader, they don't want you do know about it I am not sympathetic. You

take the same view? I don't. , I think it depend what the Tory is

about. I know you say good monetary policy for good stories. We don't

pay for stories on the Sunday Times. I suns you say your eunderstand you

say your readers pay good money. Some stories are not in the public

interest and also the public aren't interested in them. I wonder, what

the drive for greater transparency has come from is it because we don't

trust politicians any more, or is it because we are a much less

deferential society and rightly less deferential? 'T trust politicians

any more, or is it because we are a much less deferential society and

rightly less deferential? I would "degree with that, and the thing

about the internet and twitter and blogs is it gives far Mr People a

voice, and that voice, I think has become a democratic voice, so it is

not just what the newspaper has printed and what is on the front

cover we hear about, and that we discuss, and that I think has led to

greater transparency but it there is, I think a big difference between

scrutiny and transparency, where you have something that is in the public

interest, a public figure and an entertainer and their private life.

Let us talk about the MP Ian Lavery here, because we have talked about

whether or not he told the yuen -- union, about his morn and also

whether he disclosed in Parliament. At what point do you start

investigating someone who is now in public life, because if you went

right back to Year Zero, a lot of people wouldn't go into public life

because not even has a clean past. Of course the Sunday Times has been

investigating Ian Lavery. My colleague James Lyons did an

excellent job of exposing some of the things that were going on at the

Northumberland numb which now only has six members yet spent a lot of

voluntary contributions from miners who had industrial injuries on

paying the wages of staff. So where we see a scandal, there is no

statute of limitation. Do you think... That should be a lesson to

people who are thinking of wrongdoing. Do you think that would

put people off going into public service, from the point of view when

they start they would expect to be scrutinised but in a previous life,

do they expect their previous life to come for attention? I think in

that case if you are already a public figure and a union loader at

the time it is not... A public official. It is not appropriate.

However if you are at university and during your time at university, you

have various private conversations you go to parties and you are not a

public figures in fact you haven't decided what you are going to do.

Everyone can find out about it because of coarse you can say public

domain on Facebook, how much scrutiny, you have to have the

personal Auton hi to be able to without being in fear. Do you agree

that? I don't. The more transparent we are becoming, the more tolerant

we are become, I am sure it doesn't feel like that to speech who have

had a minor misdemeanor and are pulling up years later. I think you

can laugh things off. If you are looking to victims of the press and

you can see the effect it has on their life it makes you take a

different view. Now the case of John Whittingdale. Interestingly, I think

you probably take a different view on this. John Whittingdale had a

relationship with a woman who turned out to be a sex worker, that

relationship finished, a good while before he then became Culture

Secretary. But the fact was he was looking at press regulation and

papers knew about what was going on, is he a legitimate cause for

investigation? What I find out is astonishing which Hacked Off which

Charlotte was involved with which exposed hip. He was a single man,

with a girl who he claims hid, he didn't know... So, I think the point

of this is the decisions they seemed to be very surprising, that the

independent decisions were made not to run the story. It wasn't

surprising at all. At the same time at the Brooks Newmark. What hacked

off were saying it was about editorial... It would have felt

personal to him. Going through the courts at the moment and due on

Monday, is a decision over a privacy injunction that was challenged by a

newspaper in your stable, a well-known male celebrity and it is

all over the internet but not in The Papers and not on Newsnight. Where

is the public interest in that? I think there is no public interest in

that story. I think that if you make a private decision within your

relationship, that you are going to open your relationship out, you

shouldn't be under some kind of duty to send some kind of Press

Association message saying we have had this conversation, you have to

have personal autonomy in your relationship. I am not worried that

John Whittingdale's relationship has doll light. I am not worried if this

injunction is lifted and we hear more about this celebrity couple. I

really think in the end people will say, now, what was that, why, it is

nice work for lawyer, they are earning a lot of money fighting

privacy case, but really, it is like, you know, Canute holding back

the tide when the internet has the details. If you say look, you can

read it somewhere else, what position are they left in, if they

can't assert their right? People will turn round and say we can

publish what we like. If they are embarrassed about their behaviour

they need not indulge in it. Five people from Birmingham have

been arrested on suspicion of terrorism offences,

as part of an investigation launched after the recent attacks

in Brussels and Paris. One of the men was arrested as he

arrived on a flight into Gatwick. We understand the arrests

were as a result of co-operation between MI5 and the French

and Belgian authorities. Our reporter Secunder

Kermani is here. What do you know about this? What we

know is that three men and a woman were arrested last night in

Birmingham. That another man was arrested this morning as he arrived

at Gatwick Airport. He was flying in from Morocco. Police have been

searching a property in Birmingham and bomb disposal experts were

called briefly, but police say they have no information that an imminent

attack was planned in the UK. But Whitehall officials say the arrests

are significant and part of an extensive investigation into the

attacks in Paris and Brussels and they say as well that the Moroccan,

I have learned that Moroccan intelligence services were involved.

What new details have you learned about the suspects? What we have to

bear in mind is the suspects haven't been charged yet. The police are at

an early stage of the investigation. But I have been speaking to a well

placed source who says that the members of this group that were

arrested are suspected of being involved in the logistical support

for the attacks in Paris and in Brussels. And I understand that the

group was under surveillance for a number of months, but they were

allowed to continue so the authorities could see who they were

interacting. And that came to an end when one of the members flew back

into the UK. They're still yet to be charged and a decision will be made

over the weekend. Thank you. This week the name of 21-month-old

Ayeesha Jane Smith was added to the list of toddlers and young

children killed by relatives known to the social services -

everyone remembers Victoria Climbie and Baby P, and there

are sadly many others. Ayeesha's mother, Kathryn Smith,

will serve a minimum of 24 years for viciously

torturing her daughter to death. Every day social workers have

to make difficult judgements, and when they are looking at best

practice, Norway's often cited as a country that devotes more

attention and resources Thirty-five years ago, for example,

it was the first state in the world to appoint a children's ombudsman -

an independent official to protect their rights,

an idea that's been copied in the UK But now the country's social

services are being accused by campaigners at home and abroad

of an excess of zeal - of taking children into care

without good reason. It is a house that had

five children. Their father plays

one of his favourite songs - not to entertain anyone,

just to calm his nerves. Their two girls aged eight and ten,

their two boys aged two and five and their baby

were taken away in November. And Ruth and Marius's

world fell apart. I was waiting for the girls to come

home from school. And it passed 10 or 15 minutes

and they didn't come. I saw it came, two black cars,

one continued driving on the Inside the car was a child

protection officer. She said the two girls had

been taken away in the other black car and two older boys

were being taken away too. They still had the baby,

but not for much longer. It was the second day in the evening

we saw two cars driving here and two black cars again and I said,

they have brought the kids home. Were you excited, you got really

excited when you saw those cars? Then I saw four policemen

coming out of the car. I told Marius, I think they're

going to We were questioned about why

they were in the home. We admitted spanking

the kids, but not... Not every time when they would

do something bad. They didn't find any

physical marks or anything like that when they had

medical examination of them. It's very clear until

the smallest detail. It is not allowed for any

physical correction. Their lawyers wouldn't let me ask

any more questions, because they're still under investigation

and the authorities aren't allowed to discuss this or any other

individual case to protect Beginning on November

16th when the Norwegian authority for child protection,

the Barnevernet, had taken away Claims that Marius and Ruth's kids

and hundreds of others have been taken without reason have triggered

demonstrations all over the world. Even if the protestors

can't know all the facts. The campaign's strong abroad,

because Marius is an immigrant from Romania and the

couple belonged to an evangelical Christian community

with global links. But in Norway today,

there are solid members of

the establishment who also think the country's child

protection system is out of control. Ingla is head of state archive

in the city of Bergen. I grew up believing

that the Norwegian system was the best in the world,

best for children. The UN are stating

that all the time. Then suddenly I discovered that this

cannot be the case, and that was because of

things that happened in my Because of what happened to this

little girl, his grand daughter, who was taken

away several years ago. The Norwegian child child protection

service known as Barnevernet said But that is not how

it looked to Ingla. So this was the passive,

non-sounding child. How long is this

before she was taken? This is in the middle

of November, so this is is basically

two months before she was taken. She was put into

emergency fostering, because the child protection service

said she was suffering serious psychological harm, because her

parents count meet her They said her mother, who is from

China and has now gone back there, was depressed and her father,

Eric, was simple, though he has never been diagnosed with any

condition, other than a slight lack of short-term memory

when he was small. I did everything, I changed nappies,

I change nappies and I Just days before child

protection started their urgent assessment of the family,

a doctor at the local health clinic found the little girl

was developing normally, but Barnevernet said

later that even if they had known that it

wouldn't have affected their We put forward a huge report

on my son's psychological They haven't mentioned

that by one word. So they're closing

their eyes and they say that we can only rely

the assessments that these persons working for Barnevernet have made.

Of course, parents whose children are taken into care in any country

are nearly always angry with the system, but I'm astonished

It devotes more resources and attention to children

and their rights than almost any country on earth and child

protection usually just provides guidance to parents with problems,

it is only in what they regard as extreme cases they they seek

The number of children and young people taken forcibly into

Partly as a reaction to the state's failure to protect an eight-year-old

boy, Christopher, who was beaten to death by his step father in 2005.

More than 150 leading Norwegian professionals

- psychologists, lawyers social work experts -

have written a letter saying the child protection service

is a dysfunctional organisation that makes major miscalculations with

So how does the Norwegian Government feel about

We don't have many children in alternative care, compared to, for

So why there is so much attention to the Norwegian system?

There is evidence that parents say isn't accepted.

That is a concern we looking into and that is why we want

to look into the child welfare to see what goes wrong and also

Could children be taken off parents simply because

the parents had exercised mild corporal punishment.

It is important we have programmes helping parents

avoiding to use corporal punishment in the child's upbringing.

That is actually an answer to your question.

But parents have to know the law and live by the law in Norway.

Ruth and Marius's background is religious.

All her family are Pentecostals and he is a foreigner from Romania.

Their supporters think they're victims of discrimination and in

Norway children with an immigrant parent are four times more likely

than others to be removed by force from their families.

But there is no means of knowing if cultural

difference has been a factor in this case, or the others I have

Child protection denies any prejudice.

After the children were taken, Ruth and Marius say

they offered to fix whatever needed fixing about the way

But they said child protection didn't even want to

discuss trying to reunite the family.

Now though, since we filmed with the couple, their baby son has

But they fear there is still a long way to go before they know whether

the other four children will ever be returned.

And you can see a longer version of Tim Whewell's report from Norway

on Our World on Saturday and Sunday evening at 9.30pm on

Sales of vinyl are up more than 60% this year,

and Record Store Day, which is tomorrow, has become

But an ICM survey has revealed that almost half the people who buy vinyl

So what is the allure of vinyl, that artists from Foals

to Primal Scream to Kanye West are choosing it for their new releases?

Is it about the sound, or the artwork, or is vinyl

Joining me is Frank merit, who runs a studio and says last year they had

a backlog of orders for five months. You have vinyl with you. What do you

have? Myles Davis, Kind of Blue. A classic record. What about the

quality of vinyl versus down load. From a bit size, an mp3 is about the

tenth of a size of a CD final and vinyl is infit nit in its quality.

Why are people buying vinyl, but half are buying it and don't listen

to that music on vinyl? It doesn't surprise me, I think it is to do

with ownership and the fact that we remember as vinyl buyers, we

remember our first record. Do you remember your first record? Yes The

Kinks Dead End Street. I can remember the shop and the time of

year. It was a thing. What about you? Europe The Final Count down!

But it was something and a lot of it to me was about the album covers and

the art which is being re-created on CDs, but it is different on vinyl.

You have a large format and you can really go to down on your design and

you know here the sleeve is on both sides and it opens up, double

sleeve. Beautiful artwork. Yes. Importantly as well, we remember our

first records. Who remembers their first mp3? That lot of people buy

vinyl and don't own a record player. That is the ownership aspect, one

wants to give ones support to musicians and to small independent

labels who you know, they don't make much from making records, the

profits are low. And it is a passion that people want to. That whole

thing about trying to get people back to vinyl, such as The Foals

releasing EPs on vinyl and then on to down load, are they doing that

because it is a passion for vinyl, or because they feel is a cachet and

they want people to feel that? It goes back to ownership aspect and it

shows commitment and that someone is going to go to a shop or buy a

physical product and own it and they're going to love that product

and feel it. The texture of the sleeve. It ages and reacts to its

environment. If you mistreat a record it will get crackly. If you

love it and look after it, it will play beautifully. Is this going to

be, you say you have a bag log of orders, do you think we are going

back to vinyl completely? No, I don't think so. Vinyl sales globally

are around the two to three per cent mark of audio sales. Like you have

your kindle and your book? Yes, vinyl, record sales are on the up,

50% on average each year. And record players are also on the up. Thank

you. Time for a one paper tomorrow morning and is the The Times and it

is another financial story, it is the Blair rich project and there are

secret trusts for Tony Blair's earnings.

That's almost all we have time for tonight, but before we go,

an extraordinary piece of public art has emerged in the Egyptian

capital of Cairo - a mural, spreading over 50 buildings.

The artist, El Seed, managed to evade government censorship

by painting his mural in fragments and working in a poor,

often overlooked area of the city, where Egypt's