14/04/2016 Newsnight


14/04/2016

Questions over the finances of Labour's trade union spokesman. The creator of the national curriculum on the government's academy plan. EU referendum latest. With Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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Another example of opaque financial affairs tonight.

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Someone who's been handsomely renumerated.

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No, tonight we have the story of Labour's spokesman

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That will remain between myself and...

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We're on the Referendum Road - hearing from the people

:00:38.:00:45.

Spanish, French, seem to be able do what they want to with the fishing

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and we're not allowed to, so it is just time we came out.

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Sexism from MPs in the parliamentary lobby.

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Or a deeper problem in an old boys' club?

:01:01.:01:11.

The innovative film director Peter Greenaway, on his new film

:01:12.:01:16.

For ten days, since the Panama Papers were leaked,

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financial morality has been top of the news.

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The tricks of the rich have been on parade, the word "dodgy"

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At issue, whether people manage to usurp more than their share

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Concerns undoubtedly accentuated by the news today,

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that BP shareholders were voting on the chief executive's

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As Jeremy Corbyn said on Monday, "There is now one rule

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for the super rich, and another for everyone else."

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So what does he, and others who have been pointing fingers,

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make of the behaviour of Labour's spokesman on trade unions?

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He used to be general secretary of the National Union

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Most of the union's cash then came from donations from sick,

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Eyebrows have already been raised at the remuneration Mr Lavery

:02:18.:02:27.

received, but Newsnight has learned that he was also given a generous

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mortgage by the union, well below the market rate.

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Mr Lavery denies any irregularity, but the accounts are opaque.

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John Sweeney has been poring over them.

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Back in the day the coal miners dug deep to make Britain rich. But, at a

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price. More than 4 billion has been paid in compensation, to men who

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suffered from lung disease, and other illnesses.

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The national union of mineworkers helped their members get the

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compensation, and in return, miners could tick a box. Gifting a part of

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their money to the union. This is a story about what happened

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with some of that money in the NUM Northumberland area.

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That was the Labour Party is best defending the trade union movement.

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Before Ian Lavery became an MP in 2010 he had been the General

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Secretary of the miner's union in Northumberland for 18 years.

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I told the common,s, I said I'm the most experienced man here, with

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regards to the trade union bill. I have been assaulted on picket lines

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and I have been on strike more than anybody in the Commons. He is now

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Jeremy Corbyn's front bench spokesman on trade unions.

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So what happened on his watch as the NUM's Northumberland area boss is

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instructive. The first line on the graph shows the amount of money

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spent on members' benefits from 1992 on wards, the year Lavery became

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General Secretary, the second line, Lavery's pay.

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In 2010, Lavery quit the union and was elected MP for Wansbeck, one of

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the safest Labour constituencies in the country. Mr Lavery got

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redundancy money and that feels odd because it seems as though he

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effectively resigned to go and work in that place behind me. The dosh we

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think ?62,000. But on top of that there is a further 58,00 pounds,

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paid out to past General Secretary redundancy costs. -- 85,000 and

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there is a mystery about who that is.

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Mr Lavery started at the union in 1992. He has told us that he did

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receive a redundancy payment in 2013. When the ?85,000 pops up on

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the union's accounts, so on the face of it, it looks like the mystery

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beneficiary of the mystery ?85,000 is Ian Lavery.

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These numbers are reasonable. The argument could be made if the

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National Union of Mineworkers Northumberland area had thousands of

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members, but the world has moved on. All the pits are closed, the

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industry is dead. And the union moribund. How many members has it

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got? Just six people. Mr Lavery has certainly benefitted from the union

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in other ways. This is his house in Ashington,

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bought in 1994 for ?75,000. Like most people, he got a mortgage.

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Unlike most people, the lender was not a bank but the National Union of

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Mineworkers Northumberland area's provident and benevolent fund.

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Newsnight has obtained these documents that show that Ian Lavery

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got a mortgage at an exceptionally generous rate. A typical mortgage in

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1994 attracted an interest rate of round 8%. Lavery's loan from the

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fund was at just 3%. There is another mystery in the accounts, a

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fund loan worth ?109,000 written off in 2007. The year when Mr Lavery

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says his mortgage arrangement ended. Newsnight has been doing some sums.

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?109,000 is pretty much exactly what you would expect Mr Lavery to owe

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had he made none or virtually no remaim on his mortgage. Was the

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109,00 pounds written off by the union actually ?109,000 owed Mr

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Lavery. Mr Lavery says all of this is a private matter.

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He does say that regular mortgage payments were made, but not by whom.

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Hello. Since news might began in investigation, we have repeatedly

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asked Mr Lavery for an interview. We went to his constituency office in

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Northumberland. To begin with, they wouldn't reply to our e-mails. They

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wouldn't return our phone calls, they wouldn't even open the door.

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Eventually, we got an e-mail from Ian Lavery but there are questions

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unanswered. So, time to catch up with him. Near Westminster.

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John Sweeney from news might. You got the mortgage from the union.

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Yes. Did you pay it off? The union and myself came to a financial

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agreement in 2007, in relation to mortgage which will remain private

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between myself and the union. That was the agreement. OK. But you were

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the General Secretary of the union. Yes. So you are agreeing with

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yourself, it looks as though. It looks as though you raided the

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onion's piggy banks That is unfairment We are here to ask you a

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question. Did you pay off your mortgage? My mortgage was paid off

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with the National Union of Mineworkers in a financial agreement

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which was acceptable to both parties. You are talking with

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yourself. I was never involved in any of the negotiations at the

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beginning of the mortgage, I was never involved with any of the

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negotiations at the conclusion. That is absurd. You might wish to say

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that but it isn't. It is unfair to say that, because these... Why is

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that unfair? You were the General Secretary of the union and the union

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gave you a mortgage and you haven't answered the question. Did you pay

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it off? For the sake of clarity, for the sake of clarity, any business

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done with regard to the General Secretary, I wouldn't financially

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business I wouldn't be involved in. What I will say once again, to you,

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that the mortgage was settled in 2007, between the trustees... Did

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you pay it off? In 2007, between myself and the union, and that was

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done on a private basis. You paid off the mortgage? That will remain

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between myself and the National Union of Mineworkers. Of which you

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were the General Secretary at the relevant time. Yes. So it looks like

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an inside deal? Disgraceful to suggest such a thing. I have get to

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commons, I have a meeting. I hope I have answered your questions. You

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haven't really I hope I have been polite enough to try. You haven't

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answer the principle question. I have spent ten minute hearse

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answering the questions and I have e-mailed you, so thank you very

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much. Thank you. Rightfully or wrongly, the public

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are demanding more and more transparency from the politicians,

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as to where they get their money from. On the question of Mr Lavery's

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mortgage, he has been as transparent as the river behind me.

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John Sweeney there, who worked on that with producer Ed Brown.

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As we went to air, Labour gave us this short statement:

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Voluntary donations made by miners all went

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into the general fund and none went into the benevolent fund.

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You probably remember the reform of the English NHS back in 2012.

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A reorganisation that got rather little scrutiny at first,

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then there was disquiet, which then turned to large scale

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discontent, and then some redrawing of the plans.

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Well, are we heading down a similar path now, with the reform

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The Government's plan is to take schools out of local

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authority control, by turning them all into academies.

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It's had some attention, but given the magnitude

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Yesterday the Commons debated it, at Labour's instigation,

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and there was clearly some disquiet among Tory backbenchers.

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...an outstanding school in every sense of the word.

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They said to me they would not want to become an academy.

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And what I fundamentally struggled with is a very simple point,

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that I should go to them and say, despite the fact that your school

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is outstanding, that all of your staff are working

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brilliantly and delivering fantastic education,

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that we are now going to force you to become an academy.

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...does not allow us to draw conclusions on whether

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academies in themselves are a positive force for change.

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If I were to sum up the concerns expressed to me by teachers locally

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it would be confusion, I think, as to why something

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that is so obviously not broken needs fixing.

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Well, the man who set in train many many reforms

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in the Education Reform Act 1988, was Kenneth Baker.

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Now Lord Baker, he created GCSEs, the national curriculum,

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City Technology Colleges, and earlier vintages of academies.

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Good evening to you. Do you support make all school academies? I support

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them because I started them with a city technology colleges in the '80s

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but it had to start in a gentle way, hay to final teams of people to run

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them. Head teachers who never had to employ people before, who never had

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a capital budget, they became managers. There is a huge difference

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between the things you started up which were carefully calculated

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schools designed and organised and in ways of doing things and taking

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every school and say you are an academy. Since I left, the history

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was by 2009 when the coalition started they there were about 200

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academy, there are 4700, a huge change, absolutely huge change,

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which has happened naturally, quite naturally and I think that is the

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best way to proceed frankly. Rather than forcing? Yes, if one wants to

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get to the stage of having them all out coax them along the road. There

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are authorities like Gloucester where all the schools are academies

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and I think Southwark but let them do it at their pace rather than

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anything else. So the Government are pushing it faster or too fast or too

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hard for your liking. Yes, I think eyou can, with a well managed

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academy you can get better results if it is really well managed, but

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not even is well managed. The idea is to put them into groups?

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Multi-Academy trusts? You've got that right, yes. These are ten or 15

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age? Yes, that sort of size. Several existing the moment but if they're

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going to do all the schools, they will need something like 2000

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multi-Academy trusts and there are not anything like that number. You

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are running some of these, UTCs, that is something like a trust?

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University technical colleges, yes. They are successful. They take

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youngsters from 14-18 and they have very practical courses. In the week

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they are making things. How easy is it to build a chain like the one

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you're running, a good chain, and can you do it in the course of safe

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three-year is? One of the best is Phil Paris, he has got 30 schools,

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and he started 30 years ago. It takes a long time. To have school

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managers, ex-heads and people who understand the arcane world of

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school finance. You introduced the national curriculum and academies

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don't have to do it, so it is just unravelling the national curriculum?

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If I were now dealing the cards, I would stop the national curriculum

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at 14 and at 14 have a series of technical colleges. This is what

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Austria does and it has the lowest level of youth unemployment. In a

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way, the colleges I'm starting fit into that category. They are 14-18.

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At 14, youngsters know where their interests lie will stop our

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youngsters make things with their hands. What is so interesting, and

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you have been banging on about this for decades, what is so interesting

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is that the whole thrust is to get book learning back into classrooms,

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isn't it? That's what conservative educators believe. I think that's a

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huge mistake. You need a knowledge economy but in itself that is not

:15:59.:16:03.

enough. You need practical application of knowledge. If there

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is a youngster at one of our colleges making the chassis of a car

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and rounded bonnets and so on, doing that he will understand the

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importance of trigonometry. Not just in book learning. I believe in

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learning as well as studying. You are an educational radical! You can

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call me that, but I think our heads in each UTC has a target, when the

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student is leaving at 16 or 18, no one should join the ranks of the

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unemployed and we are meeting that. Our youngsters become apprentices,

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they get jobs or they join universities. There are other things

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you disagree with the government on in this programme. By taking out the

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LEAs, which you're comfortable with, you don't have local accountability.

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Have they cracked that now because you've removed it? Some of the

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academies do have local accountability, they are very close

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to their communities. Our youngsters are close to our communities. We

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have one Coventry, they want another one in Solihull. This comes from the

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requirements of the local communities. Those ones often have

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parents as governors and they want to take that out. I'm fully in

:17:24.:17:29.

favour of keeping parent governors. It sounds like you are completely at

:17:30.:17:33.

odds with them on almost every aspect! No, the general thrust is

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right, but parent governors are useful people and they can be a

:17:38.:17:42.

contact for people in the school and we have parent governors at our

:17:43.:17:46.

university technical colleges. We also have business people. We have

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local business people coming in and teaching the youngsters on projects,

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and therefore our youngsters get used to teamwork, problem-solving.

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They becoming playable. Lovely to talk to you. -- they become

:18:00.:18:00.

employable. Some have called today the first day

:18:01.:18:05.

of the referendum campaign. It may not feel that way to you,

:18:06.:18:08.

or me or anyone, but it's all to do with the official designations

:18:09.:18:12.

yesterday of the groups who'll be To mark this special moment,

:18:13.:18:14.

we're launching our new series in which we go round the country

:18:15.:18:20.

and hear from voters about how We've been planning it for weeks,

:18:21.:18:23.

and yet we were still debating what to call this

:18:24.:18:27.

series this afternoon. EU and Yours, Knowing Me,

:18:28.:18:29.

Knowing EU and many other variants We did fix on a name,

:18:30.:18:33.

and to start us off Katie Razall has At new linen fish company, even at

:18:34.:18:57.

dawn some truths are university acknowledged. This is your business,

:18:58.:19:01.

it is fish, I'm guessing you of... Here they know that this is is

:19:02.:19:12.

paying more for fish. But Europeans eat more fish than we do. A place

:19:13.:19:17.

for everything and everything must be in its place. They would feel

:19:18.:19:26.

they would be better off out of the EU. The Spanish and the French can

:19:27.:19:30.

do whatever they want and we are not allowed to. It's time to leave. It

:19:31.:19:38.

could still be bigger if we could employ more people and it would be

:19:39.:19:44.

good for places like this. 44 years in the job. With the catch loaded in

:19:45.:19:51.

the van, Newsnight hitched a ride with Newlyn fish company's

:19:52.:19:56.

door-to-door salesman Tony. This is the luxury of the job, we get to see

:19:57.:20:00.

some beautiful views every single day. I will be voting to come out.

:20:01.:20:05.

The farming has gone downhill, the fishing has gone downhill, there is

:20:06.:20:10.

no more mining. But for some of Tony's customers, the referendum is

:20:11.:20:13.

less cut and dry. I would like some cod please. This loyal customer buys

:20:14.:20:20.

Tony's fish but not his arguments. I would vote to stay in. It's a worry

:20:21.:20:30.

knowing what it's going to do to the economy, for our children. I think

:20:31.:20:35.

it would be a period of incredible flux.

:20:36.:20:40.

I call on about 150 customers today. Most of them say can I have the

:20:41.:20:47.

usual please? Luckily I know what the usual is! In general I think we

:20:48.:20:52.

want to get out of it. So you will vote that way? Yes, Tony will be

:20:53.:21:00.

happy! There is real poverty in Cornwall. Because the county's GDP

:21:01.:21:05.

is well below the EU average, European money has poured in,

:21:06.:21:11.

funding airports, superfast broadband. Between 2000 and 2014,

:21:12.:21:19.

the EU invested almost ?900 million in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly.

:21:20.:21:25.

Another 480 million or so is allocated up to 2020. But it doesn't

:21:26.:21:28.

always buy them appreciation. Little and large. I will have you know I'm

:21:29.:21:35.

the tallest in my family! I don't know if I never met anyone as tall

:21:36.:21:40.

as you. I have a nephew in Canada who is seven foot one. I'm 6-foot

:21:41.:21:48.

eight. My initial reaction was get out. Because I'm thinking nationally

:21:49.:21:53.

across the country, is it actually worked while staying in? I'm still

:21:54.:21:57.

not certain. It is this thing, there are too many questions. Where in the

:21:58.:22:04.

dark. It was time to bid farewell to Tony. Round the corner from his fish

:22:05.:22:09.

round but unlikely to be regulars, Penzance's estate, designated the

:22:10.:22:15.

most deprived area in Cornwall, poorer than parts of Poland and

:22:16.:22:19.

Lithuania. The charity working out of the community centre has had a

:22:20.:22:22.

little money from the EU's social fund. This is our signature Sri

:22:23.:22:30.

Lankan hotpot! Every Thursday they offer a free lunch to those in need.

:22:31.:22:36.

Welcome, would you like some lunch? They invited me to join them. Since

:22:37.:22:42.

Brian Collett left the Navy, life has been tough. Where are you living

:22:43.:22:45.

at the moment, have you got somewhere to live? No. Well, I've

:22:46.:22:52.

got a tent. A two-man tent. So you're sleeping in a tent somewhere

:22:53.:22:57.

around Penzance? Yes. In a way I suppose a tent is better than a

:22:58.:23:02.

doorway, yeah. Living around here especially is just a dead end and as

:23:03.:23:06.

you said, they pumped a lot of money into Cornwall and I've not even

:23:07.:23:11.

heard of any money being put into Cornwall. I do know where the money

:23:12.:23:15.

from the EU has gone but it has certainly not come here. I don't

:23:16.:23:21.

want to leave the EU. I think this country would be screwed if we left

:23:22.:23:24.

the EU. We've got no industry any more. We seem to be doing better

:23:25.:23:30.

being in the EU than without it. I know loads of farmers here who would

:23:31.:23:37.

be screwed without their EU funding. Does anyone want to leave the EU? No

:23:38.:23:40.

one! LAUGHTER

:23:41.:23:44.

Are you able to vote? Do you think you will? Without a fixed address,

:23:45.:23:50.

you don't get anything coming through the post. If I was able to

:23:51.:23:57.

vote, I would vote to stay in because it's a really romantic idea.

:23:58.:24:03.

But you know where your bread is buttered. Remain as will take

:24:04.:24:09.

comfort from those sentiments. Despite Cornwall receiving more

:24:10.:24:14.

money for each of its inhabitants than anywhere else in England, there

:24:15.:24:18.

has been a lot of talk that it is veering Eurosceptic head of the

:24:19.:24:25.

referendum. Carly's Organics is one of 25,000 British businesses to have

:24:26.:24:27.

got EU help. This pan-European enterprise

:24:28.:24:40.

received ?300,000 from the EU's regional development fund to build a

:24:41.:24:43.

new factory and help boost the local economy. It has enabled the business

:24:44.:24:48.

to grow in terms of sales, which in turn has meant that we can employ

:24:49.:24:52.

more people. We now employ nine, where we had three before, in Truro.

:24:53.:24:57.

It's a significant upturn on the number of hours's work, which has

:24:58.:25:03.

got to be a good thing for COBOL. Newsnight's arrival coincided with

:25:04.:25:06.

the processing of some very un-European Brazil nuts all the way

:25:07.:25:12.

from Bolivia. -- for Cornwall. Even here in a place that has benefited

:25:13.:25:17.

from European support, attitudes as well as ingredients are mixed. I

:25:18.:25:25.

think it's rather churlish to have this great funding and then say

:25:26.:25:31.

thank you very much, we opt out. A bit ungrateful? Well, it would feel

:25:32.:25:37.

like that. It's more than that, my inclination, it may or may not be a

:25:38.:25:45.

good thing, but so much of our security depends on joining

:25:46.:25:49.

together. The funding has obviously been incredibly beneficial for us as

:25:50.:25:54.

a company. We have been able to take the business to where it is. It

:25:55.:26:04.

doesn't necessarily... I'm still undecided on that. My heart of

:26:05.:26:12.

hearts, leaving would be a good option as far as being nostalgic and

:26:13.:26:17.

thinking about Britain being great and thinking about the great

:26:18.:26:20.

industries we want to have in our country. And bringing independence

:26:21.:26:25.

to the country. I don't know, I really don't know. I think that the

:26:26.:26:28.

fact that this factory has been lucky enough to be given European

:26:29.:26:33.

funding is great. We've employed more people, and hopefully we are

:26:34.:26:38.

driving more money through Cornwall and then up through the country...

:26:39.:26:46.

But that doesn't make you think you're definitely going to vote to

:26:47.:26:52.

stay in? No, not at all. Perhaps the last word should be in Cornish. As

:26:53.:26:56.

Cornish speakers gathered for a weekend of immersion in a language

:26:57.:27:05.

officially recognised as a minority tongue. I wondered if you knew if

:27:06.:27:12.

there was a word in Cornish for Brexit?

:27:13.:27:15.

LAUGHTER What about remain?

:27:16.:27:24.

They sang us out, Celts first and Europhiles in the main, many feel a

:27:25.:27:33.

Brexit would have an adverse impact on the land they love. But some of

:27:34.:27:39.

their -- many of their Cornish neighbours may not be in tune with

:27:40.:27:40.

that sentiment. A female political correspondent

:27:41.:27:44.

was referred to as "totty" What he apparently said

:27:45.:27:46.

to the journalist, "I want She is Isabel Hardman,

:27:47.:27:50.

who is a frequent contributor to this programme, and her response

:27:51.:27:55.

was to complain But not everyone thinks

:27:56.:27:57.

the act was crime enough Another female journalist,

:27:58.:28:01.

Isabel Oakeshott, wrote in the Mail, "There is a case to be argued

:28:02.:28:06.

that she should have been pleased. After all, he expressed

:28:07.:28:09.

the inclination to talk to her, over and above whoever

:28:10.:28:12.

else was there". It raises the question about the

:28:13.:28:25.

frictions of social change are crossed generations.

:28:26.:28:26.

Isabel Oakeshott is with me now, as is the columnist

:28:27.:28:29.

Did you really mean it when owe say possibly she should have been

:28:30.:28:40.

pleased at being called totty? I was saying as a political reporter you

:28:41.:28:44.

have to have a pretty thick skin. Politics is a rough old game and

:28:45.:28:48.

politics and journalism they are both rough old games an our bids is

:28:49.:28:53.

getting story, that is always the focus of any intr action I am having

:28:54.:28:58.

at work. -- interaction. Personally I am prepared to put up with quite a

:28:59.:29:03.

lot in the pursuit of the story and being called totty doesn't register

:29:04.:29:07.

for me on the Richter Scale of offensive. What have you had to put

:29:08.:29:13.

up with? All sorts over the year, I gave an example in the piece I wrote

:29:14.:29:19.

for the Mail today of a senior MP, a Knight of the Realm. I named him,

:29:20.:29:23.

Sir Alan Duncan happens to be gay who pinched my bottom the other day.

:29:24.:29:27.

I was surprised by I didn't take offence at it. I thought this was

:29:28.:29:33.

just, you know, one of those things. Jenni, first of all should she have

:29:34.:29:37.

taken offence at Alan Duncan pinching her bottom? That is its

:29:38.:29:43.

ball's choice. The more important -- Isobel's choice. The term used to

:29:44.:29:49.

Isabel Hardman demeaned her, didn't take her seriously, she is an

:29:50.:29:53.

outstanding political journalist, she was political journalist of the

:29:54.:29:58.

year, she is a credible person, and what she was taking offence at was

:29:59.:30:02.

that somebody deciding to treat her in a demeaning fashion, so treating

:30:03.:30:06.

her less seriously than men round her, if you just ignore this, as the

:30:07.:30:11.

other Isobel advocates then nothing change, you would never have had a

:30:12.:30:14.

civil rights movement in America if you said you know black women

:30:15.:30:18.

shouldn't mind being sent to the back of the bus, you wouldn't have

:30:19.:30:22.

had gay right's movement if gays hadn't objected to being called

:30:23.:30:27.

faggots. You only have to put into that sentence I want to talk to the

:30:28.:30:32.

N word to see that kind of language says you are less a person and it is

:30:33.:30:38.

right that we should start demanding in twaun 15 that language isn't

:30:39.:30:45.

accepting. Or 2016 even. Yes. I disagree about the comparisons you

:30:46.:30:48.

make, the heart of the matter is this, think, when the gentleman

:30:49.:30:53.

concerned used the word totty he meant it, however clumsily, he meant

:30:54.:30:58.

it as a compliment, the other words you use were clearly der rowing tri.

:30:59.:31:04.

It is also der rowing tri, it says I am not treating you as a political

:31:05.:31:09.

journalist, I am talking to you in sexual term, unless you acts that

:31:10.:31:12.

women do not get taken seriously for we know that because we had a

:31:13.:31:17.

century behind us of women being treated like that, going through the

:31:18.:31:22.

'50s and nothing changed until women started saying don't treat us that

:31:23.:31:26.

way. To be clear, you made various suggestions of how you might behave

:31:27.:31:30.

in that way and one was she could have written a note to him. Yes Or

:31:31.:31:35.

could have said something to him personally. Am I assuming that

:31:36.:31:39.

wouldn't work for you? She has to make an issue and a public issue,

:31:40.:31:44.

because otherwise it doesn't tell everybody else. That is the point.

:31:45.:31:47.

The point is there is still an incredible amount of sexism going

:31:48.:31:51.

on. I know people, women working in offices now who are subjected to

:31:52.:31:55.

something much worse, but they are unable to talk about because they

:31:56.:32:00.

are powerless. If they alienate the men working with them they know that

:32:01.:32:04.

will be punished. Isobel was in the position of being strong enough and

:32:05.:32:07.

in a strong enough position to be able to call this out. It doesn't

:32:08.:32:11.

rebound on her personally and has the advantage that it is public

:32:12.:32:15.

issue, other men in the Commons won't say it to her, and won't say

:32:16.:32:19.

it to other journalist, and everybody is thinking about this

:32:20.:32:23.

issue now. A private note would have accomplished nothing in the matter

:32:24.:32:27.

of social change. As far as I am concerned, I am there to report a

:32:28.:32:31.

stories, I am a political commentator, I don't work for the

:32:32.:32:37.

Fawcett Society, I am not a campaigner. Women are not treated

:32:38.:32:42.

equally to men, is that not a concern to you. I have suffered sex

:32:43.:32:47.

criminal on many level, much of it trivial. You roll with the punch,

:32:48.:32:52.

the problem is, in no way do icon done sex enrichment. You are with

:32:53.:32:57.

this. If you start making an enormous fuss about very small

:32:58.:33:00.

things, then you would never have time to do your job, you would be be

:33:01.:33:09.

going off whiting to the whips. It wasn't an enormous fuss, she didn't

:33:10.:33:13.

name the MP, she said this has happened I think it is unacceptable

:33:14.:33:18.

and she reported this person to the whips. It couldn't have been handled

:33:19.:33:23.

better. I have extreme respect for Isabel Hardman, she is a colleague,

:33:24.:33:27.

she knew I was going to write this, we discussed it. But the inevitable

:33:28.:33:33.

consequence she well knew about tweeting about it was there was

:33:34.:33:37.

going to be a fire storm. Can I add something important. One very brief

:33:38.:33:42.

point. I watched a speech by Martin Luther King who explained why it was

:33:43.:33:46.

important that words like neck row should no longer be used he said you

:33:47.:33:52.

start with behavioural change. Then that changes attitudes, and in the

:33:53.:33:57.

end it changes men's minds, that kind of sexism is what means that

:33:58.:34:02.

women don't get taken seriously. I say choose your battles. We leave it

:34:03.:34:05.

there. She chose it well. Fans of the film director

:34:06.:34:08.

Peter Greenaway will not be disappointed by his new movie,

:34:09.:34:10.

which opens in art house It's every bit as visually lush

:34:11.:34:13.

as Greenaway's other films - such as The Cook, the Thief,

:34:14.:34:16.

His wife and Her Lover. And in the Greenaway

:34:17.:34:19.

style, very physical. By which I mean there are explicit

:34:20.:34:21.

depictions of nakedness, As well as anal sex of a kind

:34:22.:34:23.

you don't normally see on screen, unless you venture into the more

:34:24.:34:27.

obscure parts of Tumblr. The film is about the giant

:34:28.:34:30.

of Soviet film-making, Sergei Eisenstein, a ten day visit

:34:31.:34:32.

he made to the Mexican Sergei Eisenstein was

:34:33.:34:35.

one of the creators The 1925 silent epic

:34:36.:34:52.

Battleship Potemkin always cited as one of the most important

:34:53.:34:56.

movies ever made. This scene on the Odessa steps one

:34:57.:35:05.

of the most famous in film. Eisenstein himself had a turbulent

:35:06.:35:08.

career, sometimes in - His reputation outside Russia

:35:09.:35:10.

took him to Hollywood, He did team up with the left-leaning

:35:11.:35:23.

writer Upton Sinclair, who helped finance some of his work,

:35:24.:35:27.

including a trip to Mexico, in which he burned through cash,

:35:28.:35:32.

produced miles of film, and yet which didn't result

:35:33.:35:34.

in a marketable product. Peter Greenaway's film focusses

:35:35.:35:36.

on ten days in Mexico and a gay relationship between Eisenstein

:35:37.:35:39.

and his Mexican minder. Well, Peter Greenaway is with us,

:35:40.:36:00.

good evening. So where does Eisenstein rank in your Pantheon of

:36:01.:36:06.

great, of the film world? Well, we haven't had a lot of cinema, it has

:36:07.:36:11.

only been going 120 years so maybe we shouldn't be churlish but I think

:36:12.:36:16.

probably, you know, in terms of real visionary film-makers there have

:36:17.:36:19.

been very few. You can count them on the fingers of two hands, I think. I

:36:20.:36:25.

would rate Eisenstein right at the top of that list. It helped of

:36:26.:36:31.

course, that he is working in the 1920s and people were saying what is

:36:32.:36:36.

cinema? They are finding out the vocabulary, he was not particularly

:36:37.:36:41.

surprise, surprise really so I suppose politically committed. He is

:36:42.:36:44.

nicely ironic about everything that is happening. He has had some

:36:45.:36:48.

experience in the theatre, and he has made one, I think, masterpiece

:36:49.:36:53.

called Strike, a piece of propaganda. That was the first one?

:36:54.:36:59.

Yes. And he made it when he was 26, and it is extraordinary, that such

:37:00.:37:02.

an amazing film, which I would say was one of the really first, you

:37:03.:37:09.

know successful cinematic products it is amazing... How annoying! You

:37:10.:37:17.

have taken this ten day period, ten days in the making of and he has

:37:18.:37:22.

this favour with his minder, how real is that story? Is that loosely

:37:23.:37:26.

based on true facts or is this inspired by some events that you

:37:27.:37:32.

possibly occurred? You sound as though you are doubting me already.

:37:33.:37:36.

I can show you the archivele material. He had this devoted

:37:37.:37:43.

secretary back in Moscow, and she was certainly in love with him, but

:37:44.:37:49.

he did not return that affection but they had an intimate correspondence.

:37:50.:37:53.

It is all there in an archive, in Moscow, I can produce the archive

:37:54.:38:00.

and I can say that it is not a Peter Greenaway fibbingion. The Russians

:38:01.:38:05.

-- fiction. The Russians don't like it, he is a Russian hero, they don't

:38:06.:38:09.

like the fact you have made him gay. Well, there is a feeling, I sup

:38:10.:38:14.

poets, I wouldn't say I have great friend in Russia but lots of

:38:15.:38:19.

acquaintances and the average Russian are not phased by this

:38:20.:38:24.

homophobia thing, I think, we regard it as a piece of political

:38:25.:38:29.

gesturing, to demonise the west. -- fazed. I think also, maybe there are

:38:30.:38:35.

other ways I have offended, after all, I haven't put a film, I haven't

:38:36.:38:41.

put the film together about Eisenstein in Russia but outside

:38:42.:38:44.

Russia. We haven't, one would imagine it would be sensible and

:38:45.:38:47.

that is what we tried for, to get a Russian actor to play it. So I

:38:48.:38:52.

didn't do too well there. On these three counts for a time I was

:38:53.:38:56.

unpopular. Let us talk about film. You have said some interesting

:38:57.:39:00.

things about film. You think stories are not that important. It is all

:39:01.:39:05.

about the visual imagery, you are a painter by trade. By training, from

:39:06.:39:10.

a very early age, about 13 or 14, I wished to have had a career as a

:39:11.:39:17.

paint e still hoping for it! But you know, text has so many ways in which

:39:18.:39:24.

to purvey its meaning, 8,000 years of lyric poetry, 350 years of the

:39:25.:39:29.

novel. The theatre hands its meaning down in text and not in image, so

:39:30.:39:35.

let us really sigh if we can create a cinema that is really all powerful

:39:36.:39:39.

and depend very largely on image, not on text, because you know,

:39:40.:39:43.

cinema is meant to be about picture but we have a text based medium.

:39:44.:39:49.

Every film you have seen started its life as text I can be certain. You

:39:50.:39:55.

can say we haven't seen cinema, we have seen 120 years illustrated

:39:56.:39:58.

literature. ? Before we let you go, the big issue here, you live in

:39:59.:40:02.

Amsterdam, the big issue is our relationship with Europe. I don't

:40:03.:40:06.

know if you get a vote, have you been in Amsterdam...? I still have a

:40:07.:40:11.

vote, I have to say I don't make great use of, here in Great Britain.

:40:12.:40:16.

But file, you know I feel I have, a live in Amsterdam. I feel like a

:40:17.:40:21.

good European? Is that a cliche. I am happy with that. I think it

:40:22.:40:25.

regret ful there are plans for Great Britain to leave the European

:40:26.:40:30.

community. And cultural link sthrrks a film industry thing that would

:40:31.:40:35.

say, you know, like the farmers and fishermen have their take? There is

:40:36.:40:39.

a Dutch film industry, and in its own circumstances it is, you know it

:40:40.:40:44.

is followed and it is enthusiastic, I don't think we can say that

:40:45.:40:48.

Holland is a film-making industry country, but they do have, I mean

:40:49.:40:53.

think of the painter, you know... The visual imagery again. It is, you

:40:54.:40:59.

know, if you are fascinated by visual literacy, they can give it

:41:00.:41:06.

broigle and Vermeer and Van Gogh, the list is endless. And three

:41:07.:41:08.

cheers for them. Peter Greenaway. Thank you.

:41:09.:41:14.

That's just about it for tonight where, in Porthcawl,

:41:15.:41:16.

a pair of benches sit besides one of the most beautiful

:41:17.:41:18.

But instead of facing the glorious sea, Bridgend Council officials

:41:19.:41:22.

In defence of this rather odd placement, tourism chiefs christened

:41:23.:41:25.

the benches as Britian's first dedicated "selfie benches".

:41:26.:41:27.

So we asked local residents to take a seat and send

:41:28.:41:30.

MUSIC: She's Built The Wrong Way Round" by Hugh Cornwall.

:41:31.:42:26.

Bo Thursday brought us a day of sunshine and scattered showers and

:42:27.:42:33.

we will see further heavy downpours at times in the south. The odd

:42:34.:42:37.

rumble of thunder, further knot o for Scotland and Northern Ireland a

:42:38.:42:41.

wetter front makes its way south, by the afternoon a return to sunshine

:42:42.:42:45.

but chilly conditions in Northern Ireland. Some

:42:46.:42:46.

Questions over the finances of Labour's trade union spokesman. The creator of the national curriculum on the government's academy plan. EU referendum latest. Film director Peter Greenaway. With Evan Davis.


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