06/05/2016 Newsnight


06/05/2016

A special edition looking at election results across the UK, with Evan Davis in the studio and Kirsty Wark in Scotland.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 06/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

It is absolutely great to be here. We hung on and we got support in a

:00:12.:00:16.

We hung on and we got support in a lot of places.

:00:17.:00:21.

The parties each have their triumphs.

:00:22.:00:24.

But they also have their tribulations.

:00:25.:00:26.

We'll try to make sense of the complicated map

:00:27.:00:28.

These results suggest that we are now in an era where no

:00:29.:00:32.

Labour and Conservative, the two big national parties,

:00:33.:00:36.

And what does the defeat of Zac Goldsmith imply

:00:37.:00:41.

It is amazing that, of all people, it is Zac Goldsmith who ends up,

:00:42.:00:47.

if you like, bringing back the Nasty Party label to the

:00:48.:00:50.

In Scotland The SNP won an historic third term

:00:51.:00:56.

in the Scottish parliament, but not a majority, in an election

:00:57.:00:59.

We will govern with conviction, with ambition and with determination,

:01:00.:01:09.

but also with humility and a willingness to

:01:10.:01:11.

But the big story was the Conservative comeback,

:01:12.:01:15.

No, I don't have any particular party allegiance but this time

:01:16.:01:25.

I'll be discussing why voters trust the Tories more than

:01:26.:01:29.

And Artsnight returns with David Baddiel asking

:01:30.:01:36.

if the Great Man theory of history has any relevance today.

:01:37.:01:39.

There is no longer a pool of adoration waiting to seize on this

:01:40.:01:44.

There are many more writers than there used to be.

:01:45.:01:49.

Results day and more evidence of the new kaleidoscope politics

:01:50.:02:06.

that has replaced the old two-party system in Britain.

:02:07.:02:09.

It's not just that we have different winners in different

:02:10.:02:12.

parts of the country, we have different contests as well.

:02:13.:02:14.

While the SNP got Scotland, Labour got Wales and London,

:02:15.:02:19.

and the Tories did OK'ish in the rest of England,

:02:20.:02:22.

Plaid Cymru making progress, Ukip getting over 10%

:02:23.:02:29.

of the British vote, and even the Lib Dems

:02:30.:02:31.

stubbornly refusing to die, in fact getting 15% of the projected

:02:32.:02:34.

The main preoccupation today has been to ask,

:02:35.:02:39.

as we always do, what does it mean for the next general election?

:02:40.:02:43.

Can Labour win in 2020 or is it obvious the Conservatives will?

:02:44.:02:48.

But right now it's not even clear what Labour and Conservative

:02:49.:02:51.

Is Ruth Davidson's pro-EU Conservatism in Scotland

:02:52.:02:57.

the same as Boris Johnson's brexit-leaning metropolitanism?

:02:58.:03:00.

Is Sadiq Khan really a representative

:03:01.:03:03.

It's a complex map - different colours, and different

:03:04.:03:08.

And to help make sense of it, our political editor Nick Watt.

:03:09.:03:17.

Nick, make sense of it. What today did provided us with a reminder that

:03:18.:03:26.

we really live in the 30-something era of politics. The two main

:03:27.:03:31.

parties were scrabbling around in the early 30%, but in the general

:03:32.:03:34.

election it looks like the winner cannot get above the late 30s in a

:03:35.:03:39.

percentage and the second party, Labour, is in the low 30s. Why is

:03:40.:03:45.

that? They both face structural problems. Labour has the structural

:03:46.:03:49.

problem of now not existing in Scotland and a problem in southern

:03:50.:03:54.

England. The Conservatives have a problem in northern England and

:03:55.:03:58.

London. That means neither of the parties is going to get into 40%, so

:03:59.:04:03.

we will not see the politics that we grew up with, a dominant Margaret

:04:04.:04:09.

Thatcher, a dominant Tony Blair. It is interesting, you were talking

:04:10.:04:14.

about the kaleidoscope. We will find the kaleidoscope is shaken this

:04:15.:04:18.

year, not today, but on the 23rd of June when we have that referendum.

:04:19.:04:25.

That is the big picture. Let's focus on the stories people focus on these

:04:26.:04:29.

days, what it means for the leaders of the two main parties. The Jeremy

:04:30.:04:35.

Corbyn camp are saying they have seen of what they are calling a

:04:36.:04:43.

pre-coup copout. They mean that they were expecting those who have

:04:44.:04:46.

problems with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership would come out of the

:04:47.:04:50.

trenches overnight, their would-be MPs we have not heard about saying,

:04:51.:04:55.

it is time to think about his leadership, and they were expecting

:04:56.:04:58.

the coup would be launched on the 24th of June after the referendum.

:04:59.:05:04.

They are confident that is not going to happen. But what the critics are

:05:05.:05:08.

saying is it is OK for the moment, but you have got a year. But we will

:05:09.:05:15.

believe it when we see it. There is unease in the Conservative Party

:05:16.:05:20.

over Zac Goldsmith's campaign. We decided to stand back and have a

:05:21.:05:23.

look, what have we learned from these elections around the UK?

:05:24.:05:28.

A balmy spring evening outside London city hall as the parties wait

:05:29.:05:35.

for one of the final big results on the UK's attempt at a super Thursday

:05:36.:05:40.

election. What can seasoned political observers take away from

:05:41.:05:44.

these results? Labour is still in the game and a coup against Jeremy

:05:45.:05:50.

Corbyn is off the table until after the EU referendum and probably

:05:51.:05:53.

beyond. But these results suggest the parties have got a very long way

:05:54.:05:59.

to go to show it is a potential government in waiting. But let's

:06:00.:06:03.

have credit where credit is due. The leadership ran a very effective

:06:04.:06:07.

operation to manage expectations over Labour's performance. For the

:06:08.:06:13.

first time since 1910, they have come third in their traditional

:06:14.:06:18.

stronghold in Scotland. When the seats change and the boundaries

:06:19.:06:21.

changed at that the general election they will need to be 13% ahead in

:06:22.:06:26.

the polls in England in order to win and this does not suggest this is

:06:27.:06:31.

going to happen. Most leaders of the opposition when they start their job

:06:32.:06:35.

and go into these elections gain hundreds of seats. This is the first

:06:36.:06:39.

time in decades somebody has not achieved that. No conservative

:06:40.:06:44.

colossus despite what those pictures of Dave and Barack Obama might

:06:45.:06:49.

suggest. A poor showing in the southern shires in England will

:06:50.:06:53.

cause disappointment in Number Ten, though Ruth Davidson's success in

:06:54.:06:57.

Scotland suggest the Conservative and Unionist party is on its way

:06:58.:07:01.

back to being the party of the whole union once again. The fact Unionist

:07:02.:07:06.

party and the Conservatives gained seats in Scotland in quite a

:07:07.:07:12.

significant fashion, taking them away from Labour, is very important

:07:13.:07:16.

for the Conservatives who talk about being a real one nation Conservative

:07:17.:07:21.

Party. The United Kingdom is just that little bit more secure. The SNP

:07:22.:07:25.

failure to maintain its parliamentary majority means it will

:07:26.:07:31.

be more difficult to ask for a second referendum after a Brexit

:07:32.:07:35.

book, but the green success means there is a pro-independence majority

:07:36.:07:41.

in Hollywood. Quite a tough campaign, but not too tough. Sadiq

:07:42.:07:49.

Khan's campaign shows tactics must deal with facts and must not fear

:07:50.:07:54.

into US style culture war. That is the lessons that Goldsmith is

:07:55.:07:59.

tonight. Lynton Crosby is not invincible as an adviser to the

:08:00.:08:03.

Conservative Party. He understands Middle England and that was his

:08:04.:08:09.

point about their victory in the 2015 election. This suggests he does

:08:10.:08:14.

not understand modern London. Ukip is back in business, its success in

:08:15.:08:18.

Wales means it has a visible footprint in all three parts of

:08:19.:08:24.

Great Britain. It is a bit of a mixed blessing for Nigel Farage who

:08:25.:08:26.

sees his party slip into fourth place in the national vote share.

:08:27.:08:33.

Unlikely political bedfellows. Jeremy Corbyn is delighted that

:08:34.:08:38.

Jeremy Corbyn is safe, but so too is David Cameron who believes that

:08:39.:08:42.

every day the Labour leader remains in office will really help his

:08:43.:08:45.

successor as Tory leader when the next general election comes. Next

:08:46.:08:53.

week, we will see the EU referendum campaign picked up speed again. That

:08:54.:08:58.

is really an event that could reset British politics for a generation.

:08:59.:08:59.

We'll focus on the Conservatives first.

:09:00.:09:04.

A lot of controversy about the campaign in London.

:09:05.:09:06.

Zac Goldsmith's sister, Jemima Khan, tweeted this: "Sad that

:09:07.:09:08.

Zac's campaign did not reflect who I know him to be."

:09:09.:09:11.

Sayeeda Warsi, former Tory Chairman tweeted,

:09:12.:09:12.

campaign lost us the election, our reputation and credibility

:09:13.:09:16.

Well, it was said to be a campaign by the playbook of Tory

:09:17.:09:22.

It wasn't him in fact behind Zac, it was his company.

:09:23.:09:26.

But in strange timing, he was knighted by the Queen today.

:09:27.:09:31.

Earlier, I spoke to David Cameron's former right-hand man,

:09:32.:09:34.

Steve Hilton, never one in the mould of Sir Lynton.

:09:35.:09:37.

What did he make of the election of a muslim mayor in London?

:09:38.:09:42.

I think it's really great news, frankly.

:09:43.:09:46.

I think it is very powerful and positive message about London.

:09:47.:09:49.

It was interesting, last week and the week before I have been over

:09:50.:09:52.

on the east coast of America, in New York and Washington,

:09:53.:09:55.

and it was really interesting how much interest there

:09:56.:09:57.

Most of it was centred around the fact that this great

:09:58.:10:03.

cosmopolitan city could potentially elect a Muslim Mayor.

:10:04.:10:07.

You say all of that, a lot of people will say that

:10:08.:10:10.

Zac Goldsmith's campaign was, if you like, expressing the very

:10:11.:10:13.

opposite sentiments to the ones you have just expressed,

:10:14.:10:17.

which was dog whistle, bringing, in quite subtle ways,

:10:18.:10:19.

I don't know what your thoughts were about that campaign.

:10:20.:10:27.

The overall impression I got from Zac's campaign was of a rather

:10:28.:10:30.

old-fashioned and, frankly, uninspiring campaign.

:10:31.:10:35.

I was surprised about that because Zac, who I know pretty well,

:10:36.:10:38.

is actually a really interesting, thoughtful, somewhat

:10:39.:10:40.

antiestablishment character in politics and he has got a very

:10:41.:10:44.

interesting set of views of different kinds

:10:45.:10:47.

And it seemed to me that none of that actually was

:10:48.:10:52.

Which, to be honest, I found rather weird.

:10:53.:10:56.

But what I would say is that, at the very least, it's rather

:10:57.:11:00.

careless to allow your campaign to be characterised in that way and,

:11:01.:11:02.

frankly, it's rather amazing that, of all people, it is Zac Goldsmith

:11:03.:11:05.

who ends up, if you like, bringing back the Nasty Party label

:11:06.:11:08.

You would think something like that can be used to re-toxify the Tories.

:11:09.:11:16.

You were obviously involved there, trying to detoxify them back

:11:17.:11:19.

I think that is certainly what people are saying.

:11:20.:11:24.

As I say, I am not in a position to judge whether it is fair or not.

:11:25.:11:28.

But, you know, I have been involved in campaigns and you have to be

:11:29.:11:31.

careful to make sure that what you say and do cannot be

:11:32.:11:34.

misrepresented in ways that are fundamentally unhelpful.

:11:35.:11:38.

Of course your opponents are going to say things you don't

:11:39.:11:40.

agree with and try and distort what you do and so on,

:11:41.:11:43.

But I think that the way this particular accusation has

:11:44.:11:50.

been allowed to stick - frankly, even if that is unfair -

:11:51.:11:53.

shows that there is something there that at the very

:11:54.:11:56.

And, I think, could be pretty damaging, yes.

:11:57.:12:00.

I am sensing that you prefer something a little more positive

:12:01.:12:03.

and maybe think that this negativity has shown its limits?

:12:04.:12:06.

It seems to me that Zac's campaign was a real missed

:12:07.:12:09.

opportunity because London, it feels to me, is the kind of place

:12:10.:12:12.

where you could really do well with a more modern,

:12:13.:12:15.

less partisan, more inspiring and optimistic kind of campaign,

:12:16.:12:20.

given the kind of city it is and the fact that it is not

:12:21.:12:24.

necessarily the case that you have got so many people

:12:25.:12:27.

there who are dyed-in-the-world Labour or Conservative,

:12:28.:12:30.

I think that, therefore, a fresh, modern campaign could really have

:12:31.:12:36.

Well, let's talk to Matthew Hancock, Cabinet Office minister.

:12:37.:12:47.

It is not official, but we know Sadiq Khan has won. Do you welcome

:12:48.:12:55.

the fact that it is a great cosmopolitan city and it has a

:12:56.:13:00.

Muslim Mayor? Yes in a way. I voted for Zac Goldsmith, I think he would

:13:01.:13:04.

have been a better Mayor. He may well still be, we have not had the

:13:05.:13:09.

official declaration! But I think the fact that London can have a

:13:10.:13:16.

debate between two people of different religions reflecting the

:13:17.:13:23.

fact that we have got a multireligious city is overall

:13:24.:13:26.

positive for London. What did you think of the campaign? It has been

:13:27.:13:32.

widely panned and now we know definitively it did not work. It was

:13:33.:13:37.

criticised before, but now we know it did not work. I wonder whether

:13:38.:13:41.

you think any lessons need to be taken from that? I think that is a

:13:42.:13:47.

little unfair. I think the campaign had positive elements on housing and

:13:48.:13:50.

transport and especially on the environment which Zac Goldsmith has

:13:51.:13:55.

got a long history on and has been working on for many years. If you

:13:56.:13:59.

look at the statistics we have seen so far, the proportion of the boat

:14:00.:14:05.

that Zac got is very similar to the proportion we got in the general

:14:06.:14:09.

election a year ago in London. I think there is a bigger question.

:14:10.:14:13.

London has proved that at the general election last year that it

:14:14.:14:17.

is more difficult for us than other parts of the country. If you look at

:14:18.:14:22.

the rest of the country, we did pretty well in the English council

:14:23.:14:27.

elections, we took seats and we got cancelled away from Labour in key

:14:28.:14:34.

battle ground areas like Bury, in Lancashire, and Nuneaton. We all

:14:35.:14:39.

remember in Nuneaton. And then of course Scotland, which is a positive

:14:40.:14:40.

result for the Conservatives. In a word, are you satisfied with

:14:41.:14:49.

the campaign or does the Tory Party need to learn lessons that did not

:14:50.:14:55.

work in London, which is different from Nuneaton and Scotland? Clearly.

:14:56.:14:59.

What I am saying is there is something about London that is

:15:00.:15:04.

changing in a different way to the rest of the country. I think it is

:15:05.:15:10.

unfair to pin that specifically on this campaign. There is a bigger

:15:11.:15:16.

question. And that is clear from the fact that we did about as well in

:15:17.:15:21.

London at the General Election last year... What lesson do you take from

:15:22.:15:25.

the success of Ruth Davidson in Scotland? David Cameron implied if

:15:26.:15:31.

you campaign moderately, you can get votes and that is a lesson he drew

:15:32.:15:35.

from that, perhaps a failed criticism of Zac Goldsmith? I think

:15:36.:15:40.

she is a wonderful politicians. She is a modern, compassionate

:15:41.:15:45.

conservative. She is up meat and vibrant and is a potential for real

:15:46.:15:51.

realignment of politics there. When you give the powers of tax and spend

:15:52.:15:56.

to Scotland, instead of this Scottish debate being constantly

:15:57.:16:01.

just about how you are going to spend the money that comes here,

:16:02.:16:05.

instead it becomes about how much as well and should be put up taxes?

:16:06.:16:12.

There is space for a centrist, sensible Conservative Party to make

:16:13.:16:17.

the argument that has not been heard in Scotland for 30 years. Would be

:16:18.:16:23.

nice if she was later -- leader of the Conservative Party overall? That

:16:24.:16:29.

cannot happen, cannot? David Cameron has just had a pretty good set of

:16:30.:16:37.

results. This is a new patchwork. We have a government that cannot get a

:16:38.:16:43.

majority of 100, that they used to, and will have to U-turn on

:16:44.:16:47.

everything. Today, another big U-turn on the academies programme. I

:16:48.:16:52.

will not waste time trying to list the others. Amazing what this is

:16:53.:16:57.

meaning? We can come back to that but I want to pick up on the

:16:58.:17:02.

question, you said that no longer can we get the sort of majorities we

:17:03.:17:07.

used to. Actually, one of the most significant results from tonight is

:17:08.:17:12.

that because in Scotland the SNP have entrenched, they lost the

:17:13.:17:19.

majority, and we came second above the Labour Party, it is almost

:17:20.:17:21.

impossible for the Labour Party to win the next election without the

:17:22.:17:27.

support of the SNP. And that is astonishing. That is no scare. That

:17:28.:17:35.

is a fact and it was at the last election and it looks like from the

:17:36.:17:39.

results tonight, it will be a fact at the next election. The Scottish

:17:40.:17:44.

result in significant within Scotland, the Conservative Party

:17:45.:17:47.

coming second, what it is also important for the next General

:17:48.:17:53.

Election. Talking of skiers, eight police forces investigating

:17:54.:17:58.

Conservative election expenses and they have an extension on the time

:17:59.:18:02.

they are allowed to investigate this. Are you and the party scared

:18:03.:18:09.

of the implications of that? Something like 27 MPs, the expenses

:18:10.:18:15.

being investigated from last year? No, as far as I understand all of

:18:16.:18:19.

the rules were followed and I'm sure the investigation will...

:18:20.:18:23.

Administrative errors? There is an investigation and I will not get

:18:24.:18:26.

into the details but as far as we know those rules were followed.

:18:27.:18:27.

Thank you. Well, it is a feature of these

:18:28.:18:30.

results that two of the politicians who stand tallest in the UK right

:18:31.:18:33.

now, are from Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson,

:18:34.:18:35.

the scottish results producing Let's go to Edinburgh

:18:36.:18:38.

for more on that. In the Scottish elections

:18:39.:18:42.

it was the Union versus independence and that created not one,

:18:43.:18:54.

not two, but three stories. The SNP won an unprecedented third

:18:55.:18:57.

term with a result just short Ruth Davidson lead the Tories

:18:58.:19:00.

back into contention after decades of decline

:19:01.:19:06.

as the main opposition party, leading David Cameron to tweet

:19:07.:19:09.

"she will stand up to the SNP and give Scotland

:19:10.:19:12.

strong opposition." For Labour it was a disastrous

:19:13.:19:15.

result, their worst in history. It's now a different political

:19:16.:19:19.

dynamic in Scotland, one which Nicola Sturgeon recognised

:19:20.:19:21.

when she said today she would aim The government I lead will be an

:19:22.:19:36.

inclusive government. It will be firm on our determination to deliver

:19:37.:19:41.

on the commitments we made to the Scottish people but it will also

:19:42.:19:46.

reach out and seek to work with others across the Parliament to find

:19:47.:19:50.

common ground and build consensus. So what were the voters

:19:51.:19:53.

telling the politicians? I began the day in Glasgow,

:19:54.:19:56.

now in constituency terms Glasgow's political history has been

:19:57.:19:58.

turned upside down here. In the vast post-war

:19:59.:20:06.

housing estates Labour Even a decade ago,

:20:07.:20:09.

it was unthinkable that this constituency of Glasgow Pollok

:20:10.:20:18.

would do anything other than elect a Labour MSP

:20:19.:20:20.

with votes by the bucketload, but this is how much

:20:21.:20:23.

things have changed. In 1999, in the first elections

:20:24.:20:25.

to the Scottish Parliament, every single constituency MSP

:20:26.:20:30.

in Glasgow was Labour. Last night, the voters of Pollock

:20:31.:20:33.

helped ensure that every single So what contribution do the 16

:20:34.:20:36.

and 17-year-olds make in Pollock as they become the first

:20:37.:20:49.

under 18s to vote in People are saying now that in this

:20:50.:20:52.

election it was still Yes, independence obviously matters

:20:53.:21:05.

because it is a big issue. Especially since the referendum

:21:06.:21:09.

and a result that a lot But it is not the only

:21:10.:21:11.

issue that matters. It is not as if education

:21:12.:21:14.

and taxation are not They say when you want a piece

:21:15.:21:17.

of wisdom, ask a taxi driver. The question - when Labour was last

:21:18.:21:21.

dominant in the country, who or what The reply came back -

:21:22.:21:26.

Donald Dewar. I think we what we need to do

:21:27.:21:31.

is identify how we speak And therefore we need to find ways

:21:32.:21:36.

to give back to those individuals We need to build trust over the next

:21:37.:21:44.

few years so that people can have I'm genuinely convinced

:21:45.:21:50.

that the long-term solution - there is perennial debate

:21:51.:21:55.

in Scotland about the constitution - is to have a federal Britain

:21:56.:21:57.

and the Labour Party The Edinburgh-Glasgow divide

:21:58.:22:00.

is often exaggerated but in political terms now

:22:01.:22:05.

it is stark. I have left the West and I'm headed

:22:06.:22:07.

East to the capital. If Glasgow is firmly

:22:08.:22:12.

pro-independence, then in Edinburgh, people have voted for the party

:22:13.:22:15.

they think will do the best job Does this election tell

:22:16.:22:18.

you that there is no appetite I think there is a range of things

:22:19.:22:24.

going on out there with voters. Some voters see perfectly well

:22:25.:22:32.

that the case perhaps wasn't made last time and not everybody

:22:33.:22:35.

was convinced and they are prepared The person the voters think will do

:22:36.:22:38.

best at taking on the SNP is Ruth The Conservatives are now the main

:22:39.:22:46.

opposition in Scotland. They have knocked Labour

:22:47.:22:50.

into third position. That is an astonishing feat

:22:51.:22:53.

and total embarrassment for Labour. And I think Ruth Davidson has gone

:22:54.:22:59.

some way to banishing the ghost She doesn't think that

:23:00.:23:02.

many of the people who voted for her are necessarily

:23:03.:23:07.

what she calls true blue, They voted for her because they have

:23:08.:23:09.

given her a political job to do. And I met one voter who did

:23:10.:23:14.

exactly that. No, I don't have any particular

:23:15.:23:22.

party allegiance but this time I did

:23:23.:23:27.

vote Conservative. Just because I felt that

:23:28.:23:28.

Ruth Davidson would offer the strong opposition that Scotland has been

:23:29.:23:33.

lacking for so long. It almost feels as if the SNP has

:23:34.:23:37.

had an unchallenged run The SNP's historic win of a third

:23:38.:23:40.

term but short of an overall majority by two puts a degree

:23:41.:23:47.

of power in the hands And that is exactly the way

:23:48.:23:49.

the Scottish electoral system The Greens do pose

:23:50.:23:53.

a bit of a difficulty. They are far to the left of the SNP,

:23:54.:23:58.

their position on fracking and income tax is not something

:23:59.:24:01.

the SNP would be comfortable with. So it could be that even

:24:02.:24:06.

the Lib Dems come back into play Aside from all the horse

:24:07.:24:12.

trading that lies ahead, the constitutional argument isn't

:24:13.:24:18.

going to go away. But this result reduces the chance

:24:19.:24:20.

of another referendum I am joined by Fiona Heslop, the SNP

:24:21.:24:39.

minister, and Myers Briggs, a mSP and Tory MP. The historic third term

:24:40.:24:46.

but no overall majority, that rules out any idea of another referendum

:24:47.:24:53.

in the lifetime of this Parliament? It is a historic win and the first

:24:54.:24:56.

party to get over 1 million votes but we will listen to the people of

:24:57.:25:01.

Scotland. The people don't appear to want another referendum on

:25:02.:25:05.

independence. If you look at the numbers, there is a majority in

:25:06.:25:09.

favour of independence in terms of MSPs that were elected but we

:25:10.:25:14.

clearly said in the manifesto that our job is to persuade people and

:25:15.:25:17.

that is exactly what we will do but in the meantime we have to govern

:25:18.:25:23.

well and it is a record victory. Would it be fair to say that Ruth

:25:24.:25:27.

Davidson did not even think she would get this result? It has been a

:25:28.:25:32.

spec that can result for the party and we are honoured that the people

:25:33.:25:35.

have put their trust in the Conservative Party at the selection

:25:36.:25:38.

and we have become the official opposition. As we heard, and she

:25:39.:25:44.

said herself, a lot of people who voted Tory are not Conservatives and

:25:45.:25:48.

presumably Apple temper the agenda you put forward? The people of

:25:49.:25:52.

Scotland has asked us to do a job which is to hold her government to

:25:53.:25:58.

account and we are saying that it is time to turn the page on the concert

:25:59.:26:02.

usual arguments. This is the way the process was designed. Is it good for

:26:03.:26:08.

democracy to have to be held to account more tightly and have to

:26:09.:26:13.

negotiate, line by line? This is our third term, the first German had

:26:14.:26:20.

only 47 votes and we ran in minority government and we now have 63,

:26:21.:26:23.

effectively administering the government is only 64 votes over the

:26:24.:26:29.

past period so it is perfectly possible but good politics means

:26:30.:26:32.

that when we were a majority, we behaved like a minority as part of

:26:33.:26:38.

the process is taking people with us and we have a good system that can

:26:39.:26:43.

involve the parliament and take things forward so the journey we are

:26:44.:26:47.

on is about constitutional development in Scotland and the

:26:48.:26:52.

Democratic excitement. We will talk about the key policies in a moment

:26:53.:26:54.

that talk about the budget because you will remember, the last time

:26:55.:27:00.

there was a minority SNP administration the Conservatives

:27:01.:27:03.

voted with the SNP to get the budget through. Will you do that again? We

:27:04.:27:09.

need to see what the SNP put forward in this Parliament and we will work

:27:10.:27:11.

constructively with the government and we think it will help to me

:27:12.:27:15.

Scotland forward but we want the government to focus on the issues

:27:16.:27:19.

that matter to people, who want them to look again at repealing the nine

:27:20.:27:22.

person policy which has seen every child having a state guardian

:27:23.:27:28.

allocated to them and we want to focus on creating jobs and growth in

:27:29.:27:33.

the country, we are falling of the UK in terms of the economy so we

:27:34.:27:38.

need to see action. It is fair to say that the main Guardian policy

:27:39.:27:42.

has been very controversial? Because certain media have made it that way.

:27:43.:27:47.

The issues that people are interested in, they want jobs for

:27:48.:27:52.

the young people and a Health Service, we need investment above

:27:53.:27:55.

inflation, we have a good track record in terms of achievement and

:27:56.:27:59.

tacking the inequalities in Scotland. That is what people want

:28:00.:28:03.

to see us focus on and that is what we will do. In a progressive way.

:28:04.:28:08.

Things like the doubling of childcare provision for 2 euros and

:28:09.:28:14.

three rows? Will you back that? Yes and that is in our manifesto, we

:28:15.:28:18.

will work together when we can improve the country. It does sound

:28:19.:28:24.

very cosy. Leadership and vision. It will not intrude on the very public

:28:25.:28:32.

grief, but will you work with Kezia Dugdale in this way? We have a

:28:33.:28:37.

minority government so all the parties I hope can put forward ideas

:28:38.:28:41.

and policies and the government will listen to us on these and we will

:28:42.:28:45.

work together to try to take this forward and Kezia Dugdale will have

:28:46.:28:49.

areas she will want to pursue but as the official opposition our key

:28:50.:28:52.

project in this Parliament and the thing people voted for is for us to

:28:53.:29:00.

hold the government to account. We know that in the parliament we can

:29:01.:29:04.

take everybody with us in terms of a number of issues that we have laid

:29:05.:29:08.

on and it isn't in port and we engage, Scotland is very engaged in

:29:09.:29:12.

politics. It was to see the Parliament striving Scotland forward

:29:13.:29:16.

and I think that is a good example of how democratic mandates can work,

:29:17.:29:20.

we can have a different type of parliament in Scotland and the rest

:29:21.:29:24.

of the UK and we can do that successfully. 17-year-olds getting

:29:25.:29:28.

the vote, a very proud example. Thank you.

:29:29.:29:36.

We enjoyed seeing the dog have a bit of refreshment in the background.

:29:37.:29:43.

Let's talk about Labour now, and its identity crisis.

:29:44.:29:45.

It's not involved in one simple battle against the Conservatives,

:29:46.:29:47.

In Scotland it's fighting for Unionist votes with the Tories.

:29:48.:29:51.

It's competing for left-wing votes with the SNP.

:29:52.:29:53.

it's trying to keep UKIP away from its working class votes.

:29:54.:29:57.

And it's fighting the Tories in London and elsewhere.

:29:58.:30:00.

But perhaps the most important battle is for the heart and soul

:30:01.:30:04.

We'll discuss Labour's challenges shortly.

:30:05.:30:11.

But Katie Razzall went to Nuneaton today, to canvas views there.

:30:12.:30:14.

That of course is the Midlands swing town that went Tory last year,

:30:15.:30:17.

telling us on election night, that Labour had no hope of winning.

:30:18.:30:20.

Big glasses, embarrassing photo opportunities, the parallels

:30:21.:30:25.

And of course there is often a nasty surprise in the end.

:30:26.:30:38.

So, did last night's results leave the Conservatives smiling

:30:39.:30:41.

Or is the picture just a little bit more confused?

:30:42.:30:47.

Here in Nuneaton the main act nationally is the Conservatives.

:30:48.:30:50.

In 2015 with the general election still up in the air,

:30:51.:30:54.

David Cameron said he knew he had won when bellwether Nuneaton

:30:55.:30:57.

But locally Labour are the only show in town.

:30:58.:31:04.

Last night the Conservatives won three seats from Labour.

:31:05.:31:07.

The swing from red to blue in Nuneaton Bedworth was around 11%.

:31:08.:31:11.

But Labour still controls the council with 25 of the 34 seats.

:31:12.:31:17.

With Labour also keeping control of nearby Coventry and the Tories

:31:18.:31:20.

losing control of Rugby, I sought help from Nuneaton's Conservative MP

:31:21.:31:25.

The Labour Party should be making more gains than they have,

:31:26.:31:32.

they should certainly not have lost any seats at all in a place

:31:33.:31:35.

like Nuneaton and they should have been worrying us in some

:31:36.:31:38.

of our safest seats and increasing their vote share and trying

:31:39.:31:41.

That is one way of looking at it, but it seems the same result can be

:31:42.:31:47.

I do remember when almost everybody in this village worked in the pits.

:31:48.:31:53.

In a place with reminders that this is prime Labour territory,

:31:54.:31:56.

old colliery country, the Labour leader of the council had

:31:57.:31:59.

We made very minor losses, we are very pleased with the results.

:32:00.:32:05.

So you think what happened in Nuneaton is a good result

:32:06.:32:08.

25 out of 34 in the council, that is a very good

:32:09.:32:13.

Did Jeremy Corbyn come up for you on the doorstep?

:32:14.:32:18.

I have to say that the only people who have mentioned Jeremy Corbyn

:32:19.:32:21.

We have had no comment about Jeremy Corbyn whatsoever.

:32:22.:32:27.

I have been on the doorstep, I have been in ballot stations,

:32:28.:32:31.

nobody is mentioning Jeremy Corbyn in Nuneaton.

:32:32.:32:35.

Ultimately, though, if Labour wants to win places like Nuneaton in 2020,

:32:36.:32:40.

whose scalps Labour are offering will matter.

:32:41.:32:44.

Did Jeremy Corbyn come into your mind at all?

:32:45.:32:46.

It might be different with the general election,

:32:47.:32:53.

He comes across as honest and genuine.

:32:54.:32:58.

He is a radical lefty, so it's almost too far left,

:32:59.:33:01.

but then again it is nice to have two-party politics.

:33:02.:33:07.

The Prime Minister is literally getting away with stuff.

:33:08.:33:09.

He can be a bit more tough with his questioning.

:33:10.:33:13.

Nuneaton is fairly typical of these local elections.

:33:14.:33:15.

Here turnout was low and of the people I spoke

:33:16.:33:18.

to who voted, a lot had not, many told me they voted on local

:33:19.:33:21.

issues and that insulates national trends.

:33:22.:33:25.

But in turn that makes judging Labour or Conservative success

:33:26.:33:29.

Results in Nuneaton and the like have not given

:33:30.:33:37.

Corbyn Labour a resounding mandate, nor offered his opponents legitimate

:33:38.:33:41.

This noisy internal row does not look like ending any time soon.

:33:42.:33:51.

I'm joined now by Lord Falconer, Charlie Falconer,

:33:52.:33:53.

Good evening. We are trying to work out whether we should interpret

:33:54.:34:05.

these results as telling as anything interesting about the direction

:34:06.:34:11.

Labour is taking and its leader. Sadiq Khan winning London, is that

:34:12.:34:16.

an endorsement of Jeremy Corbyn, or is that an endorsement of Sadiq

:34:17.:34:22.

Khan? Traditionally in London you have to be a defined, identifiable

:34:23.:34:28.

personality in order to win. Ken Livingstone, Boris Johnson, Sadiq

:34:29.:34:31.

Khan. You cannot win in London if you are simply a machine politician.

:34:32.:34:36.

I think probably the success of Sadiq Khan in London is his

:34:37.:34:41.

personality, plus the fact it is essentially a Labour city in

:34:42.:34:45.

politics. I think it is more to do with Sadiq Khan... And Jeremy

:34:46.:34:54.

Corbyn. That is right. What about the failure in Scotland? One of the

:34:55.:34:59.

things people said was when he Jeremy Corbyn became leader he may

:35:00.:35:03.

be able to lay more with the left wing voters to defected to SNP, but

:35:04.:35:10.

that has not worked. That is not his fault. What happened in Scotland was

:35:11.:35:16.

that from September 2014 there was a detachment of the heartland vote of

:35:17.:35:22.

labour to the SNP and there has been a fundamental shift. It has not come

:35:23.:35:29.

back. It has not come back because September 2014, or the build-up to

:35:30.:35:35.

the referendum, was when it started. The next acceleration was the

:35:36.:35:42.

general election in May, 2015. The process in Scotland is about, I

:35:43.:35:49.

think, anti-Westminster politics with a plausible alternative, namely

:35:50.:35:57.

Scotland first, and a non-Westminster party. The battle in

:35:58.:36:01.

Scotland is about who is the opposition to a party that is, as it

:36:02.:36:08.

were... May be the Conservatives were a clearer opposition than

:36:09.:36:13.

Labour. As time goes on, Labour can regain its position in Scotland if

:36:14.:36:18.

it becomes a plausible national party. Although the Tories have

:36:19.:36:23.

overtaken them because they appeared completely solid on the union, at

:36:24.:36:28.

the end of the day the party that can make a difference in Scotland is

:36:29.:36:31.

the one that can connect Westminster with Scotland and I do not think the

:36:32.:36:38.

Tories will ever get back like that. No real lesson in London that Corbyn

:36:39.:36:43.

is working, no less than that he is failing in Scotland. The English

:36:44.:36:47.

councils, he did quite well in that. Crawley is an example. They were

:36:48.:36:54.

expected to take a pounding. Are you drawing any conclusions there? In

:36:55.:36:59.

terms of what happened in England, indeed the whole country, we ended

:37:00.:37:02.

up ahead of the Tories and we were ahead of our position. Unless you

:37:03.:37:11.

benchmark it against wipe-out, it is terrible for an opposition. I would

:37:12.:37:16.

not accept it was terrible for an opposition. What I would say is the

:37:17.:37:20.

way the public are responding, for all the public, whether you are

:37:21.:37:25.

responding to the Tories are Labour, things are very much in flux. The

:37:26.:37:30.

Tories have gone down. It was significant that David Cameron went

:37:31.:37:33.

to Peter borough where they did not get one extra place as his

:37:34.:37:38.

triumphant place to go to, he was clutching at straws. Tony Blair won

:37:39.:37:48.

2000 seats, you lost seats. Tony Blair took power when we were at the

:37:49.:37:57.

point of going up like that, Corbyn took a position when we were on the

:37:58.:38:04.

way down. How did it reconnect? It is still early days, but you do not

:38:05.:38:08.

want to be paralysed saying, is this going to work or do we need to

:38:09.:38:14.

change tack? When will you decide? You need to have a leadership that

:38:15.:38:18.

is capable of convincing the public that it is not an apologist, for

:38:19.:38:26.

leaks, but is genuine, and also convinces the public that by having

:38:27.:38:31.

such a party it will not destroy the prosperity of the country. It is

:38:32.:38:34.

when you get to that point that you connect. We either party at the

:38:35.:38:38.

moment that is the strongest on the first. If you do not pick up seats

:38:39.:38:46.

in Scotland in 2020, you need to win seats like Canterbury in order to

:38:47.:38:51.

have a majority. You are miles away. I do not know the precise details of

:38:52.:38:57.

Canterbury. One of the things that happened today in Crawley, Exeter,

:38:58.:39:02.

Southampton, we held on in those places. But you need to win 100

:39:03.:39:08.

seats in England. There is a process at the moment as far as the public

:39:09.:39:13.

is concerned of looking across the political firmament and making

:39:14.:39:16.

decisions. I do not think remotely that you could say either party was

:39:17.:39:20.

in a position where the next election is fixed.

:39:21.:39:24.

It's been a difficult day for pundits with such mixed results.

:39:25.:39:26.

No party has been blown to oblivion, no knock-out winners either.

:39:27.:39:29.

I'm with the New Statesman's Stephen Bush, and Isabel

:39:30.:39:32.

I think we should start on Labour. Stephen, what do you think either

:39:33.:39:44.

lessons you can pick up about the leadership? We know Jeremy Corbyn

:39:45.:39:49.

does very well in places where voters are diverse, well educated

:39:50.:39:54.

and young. He does well in a young city like London. It looks like

:39:55.:39:58.

Labour will win Salford and Liverpool and Bristol may Orrell --

:39:59.:40:08.

Mayers. The question is whether or not they can find a way of appealing

:40:09.:40:13.

not just to the future, but to the present and at the moment it looks

:40:14.:40:18.

like they are not doing it. You did not think the scores in England were

:40:19.:40:21.

very good for them at the end of the day. They were ahead of the Tories

:40:22.:40:27.

on vote share. Jeremy Corbyn has done a very good job of his

:40:28.:40:32.

expectation management, but it is a big flashing light warning sign for

:40:33.:40:36.

the opposition to lose seats in mid-term. That has not happened

:40:37.:40:41.

since 1985, which was the prelude to a landslide defeat for Labour and

:40:42.:40:44.

there is no reason to suggest that will again. We are still waiting for

:40:45.:40:50.

the evidence that Jeremy Corbyn is leading a popular movement that is

:40:51.:40:54.

galvanising support from people who are not normally excited by

:40:55.:41:01.

politics. It is the opposite spectrum, but it is like Donald

:41:02.:41:07.

Trump invigorating new voters. It makes it more difficult for him to

:41:08.:41:11.

claim that he is taking the Labour Party forward and he has to make

:41:12.:41:14.

arguments that suggest he will defy the laws of physics, in the same way

:41:15.:41:19.

Ed Miliband said he had to even though he was behind in the

:41:20.:41:26.

leadership and the economy in the general. Election For Jeremy Corbyn

:41:27.:41:29.

not to be making gains when an opposition party should be making

:41:30.:41:33.

gains, makes it much more harder for him to say that it is conforming to

:41:34.:41:39.

conventional politics. It is hard to see a route out of leadership for

:41:40.:41:43.

Jeremy Corbyn at this point. It is hard for his opponents to knock him

:41:44.:41:48.

aside. Yes because the Labour membership has always had a strong

:41:49.:41:54.

urge for unity. If you look at that losing votes in four different

:41:55.:41:57.

places, I do not think the average member thinks there is anyone who

:41:58.:42:03.

can achieve that task, so they might as well stick with a guy who shares

:42:04.:42:09.

their values and go down in style. Where do you think the Conservatives

:42:10.:42:13.

are left at the end of this? They are not crying. They must be sighing

:42:14.:42:17.

with relief because they have had a terrible couple of months ever since

:42:18.:42:21.

the budget on the number of policies they have had to make a U-turn on,

:42:22.:42:26.

including today on the academies which they sneaked out when

:42:27.:42:30.

everybody was writing about Labour. For them not to lose seats is a huge

:42:31.:42:34.

relief, but the London result has not been good for them and it has

:42:35.:42:41.

tested their campaigning instincts. They are conceding that London is

:42:42.:42:44.

not the place for them, which is not a great place to be if you are a

:42:45.:42:49.

government. There are seven or 8 million people in the country. It

:42:50.:42:54.

may be a test of negative campaigning, but it is also a test

:42:55.:42:57.

of whether you can have a candidate who does not look like he wants to

:42:58.:43:02.

win in London. People come to London from all over the world to realise

:43:03.:43:06.

their dreams. If we have somebody running for political office who is

:43:07.:43:10.

not driven, that does not go down well in a city where everyone works

:43:11.:43:17.

long hours. I am not suggesting Ruth Davidson for leader of the

:43:18.:43:21.

Conservative Party, although lots of people have, but that she sure what

:43:22.:43:24.

the new leader of the Conservative Party could look like and what the

:43:25.:43:30.

party could unite around? Yes, a happy warrior, somebody who has not

:43:31.:43:36.

gone to a proportional, somebody who people say, she seems nice. That is

:43:37.:43:42.

that post-Brexit future, somebody in the recent Davidson mould. It is all

:43:43.:43:48.

about brand Ruth, so if you have got somebody who can build something

:43:49.:43:52.

based on their own name, that could work quite well, like Boris. I said

:43:53.:43:58.

it was another nail in the coffin for the 2-party system. It is like a

:43:59.:44:03.

patchwork. It is difficult for Labour to win in different parts of

:44:04.:44:08.

the UK with one message. It has got different challenges in different

:44:09.:44:13.

parts. Can Jeremy Corbyn really need the party with one united message?

:44:14.:44:18.

Even if 2-party politics is not dead, one party cannot speak with

:44:19.:44:22.

the same voice around the country any more. It is complicated. Thank

:44:23.:44:26.

That's it, at the end of a long election process.

:44:27.:44:30.

And we go through the whole voting thing again in seven weeks.

:44:31.:44:33.

That's it from Newsnight, now for Artsnight.

:44:34.:44:34.

David Baddiel travels to New York to ask whether Thomas Carlisle's

:44:35.:44:37.

theory that Great Men shape the main narrative of history has

:44:38.:44:41.

This programme contains some strong language

:44:42.:44:48.

the thinker Thomas Carlyle came up with the great man theory -

:44:49.:44:53.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS