What would Brexit mean for immigration? Newsnight

What would Brexit mean for immigration?

An EU referendum special live from Boston in Lincolnshire, debating the issue of immigration with invited guests and a studio audience. With Evan Davis.

Similar Content

Browse content similar to What would Brexit mean for immigration?. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



Migration is one of the most fraught issues in this referendum campaign.


We're here in the bustling market town of Boston in Lincolnshire,


an immigration hot spot, to ask, is it time to leave


the EU and get control over who can live here?


We have members of the public, 'S experts and politicians to help


us negotiate our way through the issue.


We'll ask, what are the prospects for population, if we stay


in with free movement of EU citizens?


And here in Boston, what has been the effect of migration so far?


Hello, welcome to St Botolph's church, they call it a church,


It's the biggest parish church in England, known


We're guests here for the next hour, as we try to get our heads


This is the fourth of our Newsnight specials on the main referendum


issues, and we've come here for this one, as it is a town that has


seen its population grow with central and east European


migrants attracted by local jobs in agriculture


A bigger proportion of east Europeans than


According to a new national poll from Ipsos Mori,


immigration is ranked as "very important" in this referendum by


48% of the population, that puts it almost level


with sovereignty and a little behind the economy in the rankings.


Two-thirds of us believe, that if we leave the EU,


Here in Boston, the effect of EU migration has been dramatic,


We'll look at both with our two politicians.


For Brexit, Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng.


Labour MP, former minister in the Home Office in


We also have experts and those with important


And we have an audience too - some have been regulars


But we have quite a number of people from this area.


I thought we might start with comments from the audience.


A quick show of hands, how many of you think immigration has gone too


far? How many of you don't feel immigration has gone too far. So


perhaps a few more of you think it has. Let's get some of the effects


it has had in and around Austen. Angie Cook, what has your experience


been with the arrival of so much New Labour in the town. I used to have


an HGV drivers agency and pay a fair wage until another company in the


Spalding area brought in immigrant drivers and they pay the minimum


wage. They put them up in caravan sites. Or they have to pay for their


living is ?35 a week to live in the caravan, plus food. Our drivers


cannot compete with that. If our workers are on minimum wage, at the


same as what the immigrant workers are, they live in these caravans and


paid the minimum amount. We have to pay council tax, wrens, childcare


costs out of the same money. Your business has now gone? I don't do


the driving agency any more. What do you do now? I run a temperature


control career business. Darren Bevan, what has been your effect of


migration in this area? From our perspective, it has been a positive


one. Food processing? Yes, I work for a business just outside of


Austen. We have been around for about 15 years, make a contribution


to employment and we do employ a large amount of migrant workers. It


will be great but you because it has pushed the rates down. It allows us


to be competitive within our business arena. And in any business,


the objective is to be competitive in your business arena, yes. I know


we have some central and Eastern European is here. What are you doing


here? I came to Boston and started teaching at Boston College. I teach


English. I happen to teach both, migrants and also native students. I


don't have a lot of experience with migrant employment, but I am very


close to the problems migrant people have, but they encounter in their


daily life. I talked to my students and they do comment a lot. There has


been a lot of concern about the pressure on public services, schools


and hospitals. We will hear more about that through the programme.


Caroline, I know you have been a head teacher, what is your


experience because you must have lots of peoples who come into the


school who don't have English as their first language? My school is


in Grantham and we have a lot of migrants in the school population


and we find they integrate very well with the strong pastoral support


system. We do feel the RAF base feeds our school population as well.


As regards education, as long as there is strong and robust pastoral


systems and partnerships at every level, we have found the Eastern


European is add another dimensional to the school. What do they add, I


can see you can deal with the problems of language. Cultural


aspects, work ethic and their parents contribute as well as the


students. They are very much part of the community, as all students are.


All students add different dimensions to academies, and that is


the way it should be. They all contribute and have a lot to learn.


And with a robust Pastoral system, transition allows students to settle


in very well and they achieve a lot. Some of the themes we will pick up


on as we talked through the issue. And we'll get more comments


from the audience too. I should say there is also


a Newsnight live blog, it will have lots of extra material


and even potentially some fact clarifications


as the programme progresses. You can find it at


bbc.co.uk/newsnight. But why is migration


an issue at all? The story of the EU


is one of two halves. When we last voted on membership


in 1975, the nine member states had But since then, the EU has


tripled its membership, and brought in countries


with far lower wages, That has created an incentive


for inward economic migration on a scale this island has not seen


since it was cut off from the continent by


the English channel. Our policy editor Chris Cook has


been out and about in Boston, Boston has been transformed


by immigration. It is not just the mass


of East European shops, it is not just the local agriculture


and food processing industries who thrive on workers supplied


by local employment agencies. And it is a change


that divides opinion. I think the community has


lost its Lincolnshireness. It should be again a good story


for Boston because in fact We have had to create extra school


places, we have had to expand schools, and we have had to build


new schools and open free schools. Let's take a step back though,


and look at the national picture. Total EU immigration was running


at about 100,000 people a year until 2004, when it rose as a group


of Eastern European countries Annual EU immigration is now a bit


under 300,000 people a year. Now EU immigration is less than half


of total immigration, Net immigration is about half


of those totals. Now some of those East Europeans


come here temporarily, living in cramped


housing and saving up. So what do academics


make of these flows? Well, they're usually quite


positive. Well, we have done a study which now


dates back some years, we're looking at the period


between 1997 and 2005. And over that period what we found


was that immigration held back wages at the very low end


of wage distribution. On the other hand, that impact


was very, very small. It did increase wages further up


the distribution and on average the impact of migration on wages


was actually positive. From the evidence we have


from the study which dates back a little bit further,


we found basically very little evidence that immigration has


done anything in terms Boston's experience of EU


migration is very extreme. Here in the town in the 2011 census


they found 13% of the local population came from


elsewhere in the EU. What that means is that all of those


migration effect are really dialled For example, we know that migrants


have powered big changes We know that better off people


have done even better. But there has also been a squeeze


on lower income people and it has come in the form of their living


standards, not unemployment. This Labour councillor says changes


to the local economy has Historically, we grew


the vegetables, people came There has always been more work


than could be done by local people. You would have people arriving


in white vans you know, at four in the morning and before that,


you would have itinerant Irish So there has always been


the need for extra work. But in those days the vegetables


were picked, the workers went home at four o'clock and the vegetables


left Boston with them. What has happened now


is there is much more processing of food going on and in truth


lots of vegetables are actually being brought in from Europe


to be processed here. And also technology has


extended the farming season, so really now harvesting takes place


for ten months of the year. Immigration has also had


a big demographic side-effect. Walking around Boston,


one thing is quite clear. It is actually quite a young town,


even when you take account of the fact that we are here


on the week of the May fair. When you look at who immigrants are,


one of the very striking things So for example, here is a graph


showing the age distribution It was taken through the annual


population survey, a big What you can see is the huge swell


of them in their early 30s. In fact, if you take people


who are the same age as me, 33, across the whole of the UK,


a full 5% of them were actually This local Ukip councillor says that


an influx of young people has Unfortunately now we're


in a situation whereby we have a lot of young men and this


brings its own problems. Alcohol, of course, causes


many, many problems. And it means they do disrespectful


things in public where And then likewise, it means there's


fighting and such problems Immigration has had other


effects as well. Well, the main effects have been it


has driven down wages, we have some of the lowest


wages in the country, The average wage for an adult


working full-time is only just And that is before the new living


wage, that is last year's figures, And rents are some of the highest


in the East Midlands. You have got in Nottingham


about ?480 a month to rent a house. There's also a local problem


with family homes being used to house large


numbers of single people. If you are a less scrupulous


landlord you can get a three-bedroom house,


change the living room and the dining room into bedrooms,


nothing in law stops you doing that. Two people in each room,


ten persons in the house, ?60 each week, ?600 a week rent


coming in and ?2400 a month. And that is more than the average


family earns in a month. So there's no way an average family,


whether they were born in Boston or come here


as a family from Europe, So how many different


languages have we got? We've got English, we've got one


Polish, we've got two Portuguese. Left to their own devices,


young people often make In 2014, 11% of children born


in the UK had at least one parent The figure for where both parents


are EU migrants is over 5%. Whose parents were not born


in England, they were born


in another country? This headteacher runs a chain


of local schools with a large In the secondary sector, 36%


are of Eastern European community. In one of our other primaries


it is 42%. But if you go in to nursery,


73% of children are not English. More children obviously


need more school places. And that demand wave in Boston


will soon hit secondaries. Lots of these children


also get public money Fortunately, we do get additional


funding for children who arrive in this country not


speaking English. A child that has not been


in in the country for three years, we would attract an additional


thousand pounds per child. In our trust that equates to around


?375,000 a year additional funding. Now, with that, we can appoint


specialist staff who can Now, EU immigrants as a group


are unusual in a way you might not expect from the type of work


that they do. So immigrants to this country


and in particular from Europe They are better educated


than the average UK worker. However, that does not mean


that they necessarily work from the very start


of their migration history They very often downgrade


because they're downgrading, they are working jobs


which are below their observed Because they need some skills


which are complimentary Such as for instance


language skills. They acquire these skills and then


they very quickly upgrade to those jobs which are more in line


with the education Well this is the traditional


game in Latvia. Indeed, lots of those who lack


English skills have This local Latvian community leader


has been trying to stop them It would be better to stop people


coming in who don't speak English, it is better for them and safer


for us as well. Those living in this


country quite a long time. Because two years ago they opened


the doors for new countries and these people came two years ago


and now they're actually working Some of these people working


for ?3.50 an hour, that is illegal. And this again, exploitation


is just going on. We are here ten years now,


they opened the doors for Lithuania, Latvia and Poland and we have been


exploited when we came here. Local authorities can act


on some problems. We have managed to get two grants


from government to run The first one went for a year,


we inspected over 240 properties and issued over 280 enforcement


notices, so some properties had Four of the properties


as I understand it were not actually And we actually found some


properties where people were being forced to live


in wooden sheds. Others though, think we should call


time on our EU membership. I feel that our country


is becoming overwhelmed. We are only a small island,


although I do believe But I do think we need very


seriously to have our borders back. There is a hard question


for the Leave campaign Would immigration actually


be lower post Brexit? It is certainly the case that


if we were to leave the European Union,


we would have an opportunity What we cannot say though,


is what that immigration So for example, it is quite


plausible that a future British Government would cut a trade


deal with the EU to get market access to that big market and part


of the price of that would be much the same migration conditions


as we have right now. Few other towns, or their annual


fairs, have been so But few also face such congestion,


or pressure on living standards. So the effects of migration are more


nuanced and much harder to spot. Well we can now look at our


experience of EU migration. David Hanson to start with you for the


Remain side. Do you like free movement in Europe or are you


someone who says free movement is just a price we have Depay to be in


a good thing, the EU? Free movement I think has good value but the


greatest value from me is the fact that we have access to a market of


500 million people. Where we can sell goods, we can import and export


goods, and I have constituents who make planes in France as well as


constituents who make planes in the UK. The people doing business across


the whole of the EU. Everyone says the rest of Europe says if you want


to be in the single market you've got to go with the free movement of


people. But let's suppose the EU said look you do not need


pre-movement, would you say the best immigration policy is one that says


anyone from the EU can come in and we are quite selective, about people


outside the EU. I would put caveats on the EU movement, there has been


some agreement with the Conservative government on the issue of whether,


people paying in before the draw out. Issues were raised in the film


about undercutting wages for example, about housing, and I


propose motions in the last Parliament to enforce minimum wage,


to stop gang masters and enforce housing regulations. So I think


there is free movement and we should not forget there are 1.2 million


British people who live in mainland Europe. I'm still not 100% clear as


to whether you actually think that is a good thing in itself whether


that is just something you have got to put up with. This is part of my


genuine attachment to the issue at my grandfather had free movement in


Europe, he went to fight Germans in World War I. My uncle died in World


War II. Premy that was free movement but not free movement in a positive


economic market of 500 million people. That is what I think is that


prize in this. 500 million people in a big market. You think that the EU


made a mistake, this is perhaps of relevance to Boston, Debbie EU make


a mistake because it always said it wanted free movement as part of the


package early on. 2004 suddenly changed massively and became to


different sections. The poor low-income part and the high income


part. That is right, I was an officer at the time, not the Home


Office but in others at the time and they should be brought transitional


approaches to that. Even now we have a situation whereby income levels


are desperate. But ultimately again, I entered Parliament 24 years ago,


we had the eastern European states under Russian rule. We had a lack of


looking outwards to the west, no open markets there. Come back in 20


or 30 years and we will see Eastern Europe rising in terms of its


economic austerity, it will be part of a wider market with us and


creating jobs not just here in the UK but also in Eastern Europe. For


me that a surprise that we have got to work for and fight for. We cannot


walk away from it on the 24th of June. If the Prime Minister had been


able to negotiate as perhaps the wanted to, if he had to negotiate an


emergency brake, would you support the idea of that? I think the Prime


Minister wanted to have a positive recommendation so his expectations I


think were quite low in terms of what he was seeking in the


negotiations. What I want to see is where still not part of the Schengen


Agreement, labour and the Conservatives do not believe that we


should be part of that. We are an island, we have strong border


control now. In my view, and I was the Home Office minster, we now have


strong border control. What we do have is free movement and I would


say to people there are people here from eastern Europe, 1.2 million


British people in mainland Europe. If we leave the EU gives me an


answer as to what happens to those people who currently live on


mainland Europe. Let me ask that question, but before that, are you


glad the central and eastern Europeans came to the UK and


contributed? It would be wrong to say there were no benefits. What I


would say, there was a huge scale and the biggest immigration we have


had since the UK left the continent and the English Channel was formed


thousands of years ago. I am the product of immigrants, my parents


came from West Africa in the early 1960s and I recognised the benefits


of migration. But in the last ten years you have a scale and magnitude


we have never seen before and I think the internal institutions of


the country, my own constituency, school places, it is a difficult


issue. The other thing is that the EU changed, at the beginning the


countries of the EU were roughly comparable in terms of their


economic status, their GDP. When you have a situation with Eastern


European accession countries who threw no fault of their own, you


looking at minimum wage rates of ?1 in Bulgaria and ?2 an hour in


Poland, and our minimum wage is now ?7 and going up to ?9 and more by


2020, you do not need an economics degree to work out there are huge


incentives for a lot of people to the UK and that process is verging


on uncontrollable. Even with hindsight tummy watcher immigration


policy with regards to the eastern and central European countries,


Europe idealise policy if you had been allowed to set that, what would


it have been in 2004? Well David himself could well that they needed


to be transition. If you read the accounts of Labour politicians that


the time... What with the right number have been? In 2010 when I was


first elected to Parliament, the Conservative Party manifesto said it


would reduce immigration to tens of thousands. That was a clear


manifesto commitment that we have not reached. The reason why is


because largely because of EU membership. You have not got to that


on the non-EU migration. You cannot blame the EU, you're not even close.


If you had no migration from the EU you would not be close to that


target. So how can you blame the EU for that target? You would


acknowledge that there are two portions, the non-EU bid and the EU


bid. If we were to leave the EU we would be able to have some control


of that. Then we can worry about the other bit as you say. The other bit


is aware, it is a points system, much more regulated, people are


coming in that effectively we can choose for us but free movement of


people we do not have a choice. That is the fundamental difference. Let


me introduce a couple of people, to local people with professional


experience of the effects of rabbit population growth.


Alyson Buxton is the rector for the Parish of Boston.


And Rohini Deshmukh, a GP in Boston until


Alyson Buxton, we have heard of the talk of the cultural difficulties.


The demographic of young, single men coming into the town in large


numbers. What has been your experience? It is interesting that


we are here who was the patron saint of travellers and wayfarers. We know


people have visited the sometime here. But the percentage has


increased. As a church, what is important is we try to be at the


centre. We come at it in a different way. It is about dignity. Any vote


for instance, for me is not necessarily just about what I feel


is best for me. It is about what is best for common humanity, what is


best for the poor and what is best for the marginalised. We are in the


very centre of that. We find in this very church, it isn't just about


Sunday, it is about every single day of the week. Even if we think about


our votive stands and how they are used. We buy about 15,000 votive


Stans a year. Sorry, candles. What you are saying is, because the


numbers coming in have been boosted by... The church is central and the


church is being used... There has been change in the community,


without a doubt. Rohini Deshmukh, you are a GP. Answer the question


because a lot of people say it puts pressure on medical services. Did


you find yourself with too much to do because of the population growth?


Absolutely, there is no doubt the numbers went up. Having problems


anyway with coping with what we are dealing with, the numbers. With no


infrastructure or no mechanism put in to cope with that, you have to


take patients in because they are in your locality. It is unethical not


to register patients, just because you cannot cope. There was a time


when people were saying, an interesting thing about migrants,


particularly polls and others, they are young men who don't tend to be


big users of the health service, not a population of elderly people. Was


that your experience? It is not 100% true. Everybody needs medical aid


and the problem with that is, apart from them going to GPs, I know it is


a diversion, I am a GP, but the hospital A get flooded with these


people because they don't get time. They are so strict with them,


getting time off with sick leave or whatever, they don't get that so


they go to A and present themselves there. Was there a


mistake made, when we saw the numbers coming in, in providing the


infrastructure, let's call it? There was a migration fund established in


2008 by the then Labour government. Lincolnshire in 2009, 2010 had


almost ?1 million for that. The current government abolished the


fund in 2011. We are in Boston and there are pressures and I recognise


them. In my constituency, similar things are happening. We should look


at how we can support languages and health services. There are 100,000


people from Eastern Europe and mainland Europe who work in the


health service currently in the United Kingdom. Let's go to the


audience. Who would like to make a comment about this point of


infrastructure, gentlemen in the front in the blue shirt? I am a


foreigner myself, I am from Yorkshire. But the infrastructure is


very poor and it cannot cope. I am a health visitor and the two years


working in Boston, finishing in December. Half of the newborn babies


were from Lithuania or Poland. I do think immigration should be


controlled. However, I am surprised to the attitude because I have met a


lot of Polish people and they are the warmest, friendless and hardest


working people. APPLAUSE


Take the gentleman there and then we will go to the lady. The point I


would like to make is on a wider scale, we are a sovereign nation


state and it is up to us to decide how many people come into our


country. It may be one person a year, it may be 1 million. But it is


up to us as at country to decide not to have these open borders. We


cannot cope with 300,000 people coming in every year. Where do they


go and how do the services look after them? So we had to take


control of this. APPLAUSE


The lady in the purple top. I am an Lincolnshire County Council. My


residents are complaining bitterly so much about how our Jack has been


put under stress. One of the issues is policing, visible policing. The


migrants have been given a special police officer. That is special


treatment and it costs money. It costs ?350,000 per annum for


interpreters for Lincolnshire Police. We're not getting any extra


money for this and it is depriving our residents, who have been here,


pay taxes for years, of the visible policing they wish for because


resources are being put elsewhere because of the strain of the


migrants. You are Ukip counsellor? I am a Ukip County Council and we are


a growing force here because we are being ignored because the


politicians and the establishment don't take any notice of what is


going on. APPLAUSE


Just a show of hands, how many people feel you will have been


better disposed to immigration if more money and more resorts is what


put forward to cope with the bottlenecks and stresses caused by


it? How many feel those stresses and thinks... How many of you feel that


is not really the problem. This gentleman over here. You have got to


control the numbers coming in. You talk about a shortage of housing and


school places, hospitals and Doc is. It is obvious coming you have 300


thousand minimum coming into the country. That is not counting the


illegal immigrants and those that come across the tunnel and given


hotel places. It is not about putting more money into the health


service to cope? You cannot keep pouring money into an open pit.


While you have got 300,000 people coming in a year, you will never


control anything. I want to bring in two


national figures now. Harriet Sergeant, who's written two


reports on immigration And also here, Jonathan Portes


of the National Institute An economist, he is quite an expert


on migration, and produced a report today on Brexit,


migration and the economy. Jonathan, economist are mildly in


favour of immigration, they don't exaggerate the benefits. But what


was your report's central conclusion? You heard a lot of


concern about public services. Let's be clear, more people means more


demands on public services, school places, more demands on GPs. But,


migrants also pay taxes. Especially migrants from Europe. Because they


are more likely to be in work, much more likely to be of working age. We


spend most of the money the welfare state spends goes on old people and


to some extent, to the kids. It doesn't go on people of working age.


What our analysis suggests, as does that of many others, migrants, on


average, especially European migrants, pay in more than they take


out. We should be clear on this, at least on a national level. If you


want lower migration, then I think leaving the EU will mean we can end


freedom of movement and it will mean we can reduce migration, not to the


tens of thousands, even reducing migration from the EU, we could


reduce it, but the cost would be either higher taxes or worse public


services. We would lose more money from the taxes the migrants who


weren't here, wouldn't be paying than we would save. Wait, the


microphone is not new. That is not true. 75% of migrants go into


low-paid jobs. That means they are getting housing benefit, getting tax


credits, getting child benefit. We are in this extraordinary position


where we are subsidising migrants to take low-paid jobs and we are


sidelining of the people who could have been doing those jobs. So they


are not paying in more. They are simply not paying more tax, we are


subsidising their jobs. One of you is right, one of you is wrong. BBC


graph... That is wrong, Harriet. I would


On that basis you could have 100 million migrants from China who


would be economically productive and would bring huge benefits. There is


financial activity which the numbers bring an personal finance, how that


benefits people individually. As we have seen it just does not. Mostly


the poorest in society suffer from migration. In a word, if I told you


there is a small cost, call it a penny on the basic rate of income


tax, as a result of reducing migration, would you still do it? It


depends on the numbers. You said my case was preposterous, 100 million.


It is all about the numbers. Let's pause for a moment. We have been


talking about the effect of migration to date. What happens if


things carry on as they are? The population of the UK right now


is fast approaching 66 million. Now, the clever folks at the Office


for National Statistics make projections as to how


that will grow. Based on what they think


are sensible assumptions. By 2027 we are projected to reach


70 million and we get That is when a 20-year-old


today reaches 64. Half the growth is down


to net migration. Britain becomes Europe's


most populous country in the official projections,


comfortably exceeding Germany. There's even an official projection


for the borough of Boston. It sees the population of 68,000


grow by 500 a year for England is already one of the most


densely populated nations of Europe. How easy will it be to create homes,


roads, power stations and water supplies for a population


on the projected scale? As I said in that graphic,


those projections are official, but they are not meant


to be reliable forecasts. They are just projections


based on assumptions Maybe the economies of eastern


Europe will grow, and people Or maybe Turkey will join


and there will be many David Hanson, the projections show


80 million in 2016. Are you comfortable with that? I do not


believe we will get to 80 million. The key question is a economy has


got to be able to sustain that. Therefore if there is economic


growth, and jobs being created, there will be people who have got to


do that work. Not just in Boston but in different parts of the country.


You can see if it is 1 million, 2 million, the maths could work out


but 80 million, when you get to 80 million, do you think the quality of


life would improve if we built the roads and houses, are you convinced


that quality of life would improve? I think they go hand-in-hand. We


will have a natural limit at some point, I cannot project what it will


be. For me the question is how do we ensure that we have economic growth


because that is what is important. Sometimes that means skills


shortages. If someone wanted to come from Italy and set up a business


here in Boston, would we say you cannot come because we do not have


the infrastructure. I think with got to look at how we encourage economic


growth across the whole of Europe. That will ultimately include the


eastern European countries, even the lower part of Italy where there are


more economic growth because ultimately the economic success of


the 500 million people in Europe depends on all of us. At the moment


they're just exporting their unemployed young people to us. Do


those official projections, you think that they will happen? I think


the projections are likely to stop 35 years ago the senses of


population was 56 million, today around 65. Some people say 67 or 68.


I think 80 million, just another 12 million, is easily achievable and


easily something under the influx of immigration that we have had that


could be reached. I do not understand why David is so clear


that it will not happen. The point is, it is a waste of time speaking


of numbers but the point is we have no control over numbers. If the


whole of Greece if it collapsed tomorrow, which could be possible,


the whole of Greece could move here. There is nothing stopping the


numbers. Nothing. But the whole of Greece is not going to move here.


You with a party that told us know when from, that's 30,000 Polish


people were going to come if that. That is part of the economic growth


that has created jobs that need filling. Do you think that the whole


of France, Italy or Greece are going to come here? The point is that they


could. And we have no control over who comes into our country or in


what numbers. That is the point. You can say it is impossible,


technically it is not impossible. That is the point, that we should be


able to control who comes into the country.


Jonathan, should we believe those projections, they are the official


projections, statisticians make these projections and tell us that


they're not forecasts and then they are used in all the forecasts


everyone makes. Knows short answer. They are perfectly plausible. --


know is the short answer. But long-term forecasts have been made.


I live in a place called Islington in north London. It happens to be


the most densely populated local authority in the country. It is the


most crowded place in the country. In the 1970s, when I moved there,


inner London last 20% of the population. It was a pretty dreadful


place at that stage economically and in many other ways. All we have a


lot of problems now in Islington as you do in Boston, because of the


pressure of a growing population, the pressure it puts on public


services and other ways. But the downside of a shrinking population,


think of what life would be like in Boston is the population shrank by


15%. But that is not going to happen. 80 million, I do not know if


you've looked at the physical infrastructure, but in London if we


built a desalination plant to provide water, a strange thing for


the UK to have to do. It is a densely populated city, as you know,


but more broadly, Harriet is right in one sense, as long as we are a


member of the EU and if we vote to remain, free movement means we do


not have control over numbers, that is right. But there would still be


hard choices even if we had control, about economic matters. Just to go


to the audience for a second. A little show of hands. I want to get


at those of you who accept the migration we have had and I know


many of you do not, but whether basically you worry about there


being another ten or 20 years of this. So the published a Boston


projected to grow at 500 per year for the next couple of decades, how


many of you are worried by that prospect? Quite a few of you. And


how many of you would be worried, have been worried by what happened


in the past ten years? So a lot of you, I'm trying to get at how many


more of you are worried about extra growth than previous growth. Any


comments on the kind of projections M the lady in the second row. I


think we are looking at it from the wrong angle. The idea of the EU, one


of the four fundamental freedoms is free movement and I think the best


person for the job should get the job. So if there is a job there than


anyone within the EU should be entitled to have that job. Just


because you're British, just because I'm British, it does not mean that I


should be any more entitled to that job than anyone else. And you could


compete for a job in Spain or France or Italy.


There are always winners and losers, technology is the big winner now and


there will be many jobs gone. A lot of people think that we're winning


now and will later be last in the words of the song. There are big


changes going on around the world and you look at China and India,


Ph.D. Students and they will be looking for jobs. If you have free


movement of people then they will take some of the jobs that people


feel safe with, economist jobs, educators jobs. And that would upset


you? People must realise that the winners now will later be last. And


there are pressures. There's too much change in the country and we


will it. The gentleman with the glasses behind you. We've just got


to stop and take stock. Stop talking about and scaring people about how


many people are coming in and talking about forging and losing


people, you're off your head. You've got to stop think about controlling


the amount of people coming into our country. We are a great country, it


is Britain. We have survived and lived on the island, we can get back


and if we have to leave Europe we will still be able to fish and set


our own targets, still be able to buy cheese and wine. No one is going


to stop this country from succeeding. The gentleman at the


back. Migration over the centuries has brought new ideas, new vibrancy.


As a race we are a mongrel race, how far do you want to go back, we had


various migration of different centuries. We are a port and we have


a great Portuguese community. Migration will bring new ideas and


businesses, they will assimilate and become British. The gentleman next


to you. I work in a hospital down the road and migration for hospitals


has been positive. The hospital across the road would probably have


collapsed and been unable to cope with demand, the amount of migrants


working there and providing care, where we find that government is


cutting British trained nurses and doctors, we have got to bring these


people link to deliver care to British people. It is an issue of


policy rather than migration. That is a good point, that the numbers


coming here have made public services more viable by getting the


numbers up. Do you think that is true? I think it is a good point.


There was appointed couple of years ago brought up again where they were


deciding to close the maternity unit and following that the paediatric


unit at the hospital because of their not being enough deliveries.


So they said we cannot run the unit. That really would be dreadful for


women in labour are trying to make their way to Lincoln or wherever. So


I think that is a valid point. Let me come back to my panel for a


moment. Just to clarify one thing, are we going to get, some people say


let's get our borders back. Are we going to get the water back if we


vote for wrecks it? It is not a black-and-white simple yes or no


answer. -- vote for Brexit. That is casting a dark shadow over this


discussion. The word control is the word that keeps coming back and


taking some kind of control over the process. No one is saying we will


ban migration from ever happening, no one has said migration is wrong


and people should never leave their country. My own story is one of


migration and I celebrate that. But I would say we need to have some


measure of control. That is what is coming from the audience loud and


clear. Are you prepared as others in the Leave campaign to save we do not


want to be in a single market because most people seem to agree if


we are in that, we lose control. I think that is the basis of the


negotiation. I do not know what the terms would be. If they were to say


you can only join the single market if you have unrestricted vibration


from Europe, I would probably say no. But I think we can reach a


discussion, that is the point. Norway and Switzerland are both


outside the EU and both part of the single market and one of the


conditions for them to do that is to have that free movement. Do you know


what proportions of Norwegians want to go in the EU, 72% in the last


polled do not want to enter the EU. The numbers have gone up. I come


back to the central economic argument and the issue is as the UK


do we want access to a 500 million market with investment and sales


across Europe. If we do then freedom of movement is part of that and we


have got to have controls. You said before we had great control. We have


got to have measures, one example, we currently have people where


recruitment agencies only recruit in Eastern Europe and local people


cannot get access to the jobs. That is not fare so we've got to work on


labour market issues and at the same time for the economy we've got to be


part of the 500 million single market. Canada has a trade deal with


the EU with access to the EU market and they do not have free movement.


I do not see why we cannot do something similar. They have access


to part of the EU market. Now we need to know what terms we would be


going in. You mentioned Norway. I do not want to get into a discussion


about the Norwegian option. We are going to get into a programme on


that but to be clear, it may be the cost of this discussion would be the


single market as well as... Can I ask you, I want to get the opinions


of the panel. Is there any potential detriment of voting for Brexit to


the EU citizens already here question mark I do not see any


because of the principle of British law, things do not act


retrospectively. Someone resident here, who has a job here and no


other rights to be here other than through the EU. I spoke to one


French lady who was terrified that she would be forcibly removed. There


are huge scare stories. The Remain people saying that British people in


France would be kicked out, this is complete fantasy. It will not


happen. There is no legal basis. We cannot change that.


David, is that correct, that the people here don't need to worry at


all? My point would be, he is quite right, I don't think anyone on the


Leave side wants to check people out. The legal practicalities of


determining who would qualify, when is the cut-off date, how many years


of the last tender you have to live here? Given we don't have records!


The complications would be immense. David, last question for you. On the


economy, on security, the Leave side were coming up with a proposition to


change and in a way your side was saying status quo, comfortable,


security. It feels like the boot is on the other foot, is this your


biggest vulnerability? There are real challenges. What is your


constituency? The key thing I want to see, how do we make the economy


work, make free markets work, make free movement work, but at the same


time put in some mechanisms, enforcement on housing, enforcement


on minimum wages and enforcement on recruitment agencies to make sure we


have a fair market and we maximise the skills to grow the economy


fairly. We could carry on -


maybe we should, but we can't do so on BBC Two for any


longer, we're out of time. The issues of how many people


live in this country, and who they should be,


obviously get to the heart It's not as significant in many


parts of the country as it is here, but we've taken a brief tour


of the economics and some I hope it all helps contribute


to your decision on the big vote. Our next referendum special


is on Monday, and before that, I'll be back in


the studio tomorrow. Thank you to everybody here for


hosting us. At the weekend, most others will be


dry, if rather cool. We


Download Subtitles