11/05/2016 Newsnight


11/05/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, with Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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Facing destruction, or business as usual?

:00:10.:00:11.

Where will the BBC be this time tomorrow?

:00:12.:00:13.

The government is to set out its plans to change the way it's run.

:00:14.:00:16.

If it didn't already exist you wouldn't invent it,

:00:17.:00:18.

But it does work in practice and so it would be an act

:00:19.:00:23.

of vandalism to get rid of it from a purely Tory point of view.

:00:24.:00:33.

to independent public service broadcasting.

:00:34.:00:34.

Censorship in China. Hello and welcome to BBC World News, what

:00:35.:00:49.

happened to the golden era of British relations...

:00:50.:00:51.

The Chinese evidently don't want to know what the Queen said about them.

:00:52.:00:54.

So tonight we'll ask where relations between Britain and China now stand

:00:55.:00:57.

and bring you fresh clues about what caused the row.

:00:58.:01:00.

And a rare chance to hear from the mime artist who inspired -

:01:01.:01:03.

Splendid, shining, always inspired creature.

:01:04.:01:05.

When he was on the backbenches, Culture Secretary John Whittingdale

:01:06.:01:23.

was for years pre-occupied by the BBC and the media landscape.

:01:24.:01:26.

He was seen as a critic, describing the licence fee

:01:27.:01:28.

Well, tomorrow, from the front bench, he gets to actually shape

:01:29.:01:34.

policy, with a White Paper on the BBC, and the renewal

:01:35.:01:36.

That poll tax will survive but there will be changes to the way

:01:37.:01:42.

It's all about whether the Government will end up having

:01:43.:01:54.

too much say in who runs the corporation.

:01:55.:01:58.

Now, just before we get into this, the key background you need

:01:59.:02:01.

is that there are two BBC boards at the moment, the real

:02:02.:02:03.

one that runs the BBC, and is appointed by the BBC.

:02:04.:02:06.

And the BBC Trust that supervises the BBC and is

:02:07.:02:08.

Our political editor Nick Watt is with me.

:02:09.:02:19.

What do you know about what will be in this white Paper? I have been

:02:20.:02:26.

talking to my sources. There is an official government note out of

:02:27.:02:28.

which cannot be reported until midnight. The government has decided

:02:29.:02:32.

it does not want another row will stop it has the junior doctors and

:02:33.:02:38.

teachers on its back. It looks like they have reigned in the culture

:02:39.:02:43.

Department through an intervention. -- another row. The want to say that

:02:44.:02:47.

they are protecting its historic independence. You will see this in

:02:48.:02:54.

the new board. What they will suggest is that the BBC will have

:02:55.:02:57.

the ability to ensure that it, not the government, can have a majority

:02:58.:03:02.

of members on that board. The government will appoint the chair,

:03:03.:03:07.

the deputy chair, but they will have to consult for the nations and

:03:08.:03:13.

regions. Then the BBC will have to decide so it can have a majority.

:03:14.:03:20.

And the medium remit, inform, entertain, and educate, that will be

:03:21.:03:23.

there but there will be some tweaks on the remit. With regards to the

:03:24.:03:29.

things we have been told to prepare for, it sounds like it has been a

:03:30.:03:33.

bit Watership Down. Will it still be controversial? There will be

:03:34.:03:40.

concerns. The Tories, Labour and Lib Dem people will say, is there not

:03:41.:03:47.

some interfering on the board? Some senior Tory members are concerned

:03:48.:03:50.

about the chair of the current trust. There is a suggestion she

:03:51.:03:56.

will move to be the new head of the new board. Words that she is not

:03:57.:03:59.

very effective and was appointed by George Osborne and perhaps we need a

:04:00.:04:04.

bit more independence. Labour politicians, some mainstream ones,

:04:05.:04:07.

will be saying we don't like the way the left of the Labour Party have

:04:08.:04:12.

been attacking the BBC. But this has been a debate within the

:04:13.:04:14.

Conservative Party so we thought we would take a look at the

:04:15.:04:18.

Conservative relationship with the BBC down the decades.

:04:19.:04:24.

A national treasure is celebrating his 90th birthday this week.

:04:25.:04:31.

Prompting joy amongst his friends and a rare moment of consensus

:04:32.:04:36.

amongst our political leaders. Would the Prime Minister join me in

:04:37.:04:39.

wishing Sir David Attenborough a very happy 90th birthday. I

:04:40.:04:44.

certainly join you in wishing a very happy birthday to David

:04:45.:04:48.

Attenborough. Sir David Attenborough is pretty much the same age as the

:04:49.:04:56.

BBC. Since the early days of public broadcasting in the 1920s arguments

:04:57.:05:00.

have raged about the BBC's role. At this year is no exception. Following

:05:01.:05:06.

the lefty Lovie exterior at the weekend, does my right honourable

:05:07.:05:12.

friend agree that scrapping the discredit of BBC trust, asking for

:05:13.:05:16.

more transparency in a publicly funded organisation, and wanted the

:05:17.:05:19.

BBC to be instinctive and impartial is hardly the end of public service

:05:20.:05:23.

broadcasting as we know it. CHUCKLES

:05:24.:05:27.

The Conservative Party has had tortured relationship with the BBC.

:05:28.:05:31.

Conflicting emotions about its place in our life 's world within the

:05:32.:05:39.

heart of many a Tory. There are many conservatives that dislike anything

:05:40.:05:42.

that seemed to be a publicly funded state institution. -- in our life

:05:43.:05:53.

swirled. There are things that reflect the national character. It

:05:54.:05:57.

would be an act of vandalism to get rid of it, from a Tory point of

:05:58.:06:02.

view, because it is an institution that works. When you think of people

:06:03.:06:09.

who like Strictly, who like the Archers, they are mostly

:06:10.:06:14.

conservatives. The culture Secretary John Whittingdale knows the danger

:06:15.:06:17.

of crossing Ambridge fans as he embarks on the first renewal in 20

:06:18.:06:22.

years by a Conservative government of the BBC royal charter. What is

:06:23.:06:29.

interesting is that even in the 80s when there were concerned up and

:06:30.:06:31.

down Westminster and Whitehall about the political passing of the BBC.

:06:32.:06:37.

Mrs Thatcher was still not willing to take serious political measures

:06:38.:06:44.

which would have constraint it. These instincts often coexist within

:06:45.:06:49.

the same politicians. -- constrain it. That is because they understand

:06:50.:06:54.

and admire many of the things the BBC does. David Attenborough's

:06:55.:07:00.

birthday this week is a classic example of that. They're also very

:07:01.:07:04.

concerned about the effective and fair proper spending of public money

:07:05.:07:07.

in a license fee arrangement which socially quite regressive. Memories

:07:08.:07:13.

of the rows between the BBC and the Thatcher government still run deep,

:07:14.:07:17.

particularly over the reporting of Northern Ireland and the miners

:07:18.:07:20.

strike. The BBC director-general lost his job after the man appointed

:07:21.:07:24.

by the Margaret Thatcher to chair the board of governments flexed his

:07:25.:07:28.

muscles. One figure at the heart of some of those rows in the 1980s

:07:29.:07:32.

dismisses fears that history will repeat itself. Absolutely that is

:07:33.:07:38.

not crossing the line. When I was the controller of BBC One misses

:07:39.:07:44.

that was at the height of her powers. She packed the board with

:07:45.:07:48.

one of us and the processes today for appointments, even if government

:07:49.:07:54.

appointments, these are public appointments, everybody knows about

:07:55.:08:00.

it, there are no secret votes, no jobs for friends, it doesn't happen

:08:01.:08:05.

any more, it is much more open. -- this was at the height. Others

:08:06.:08:11.

disagree. There needs to be clear distance between the government of

:08:12.:08:14.

the day and the people who are deciding when and where and how the

:08:15.:08:22.

BBC is covering news. The government insists it is protecting the BBC's

:08:23.:08:26.

historic independence and we will find out tomorrow morning whether

:08:27.:08:27.

MPs agree. Joining me now are two

:08:28.:08:30.

Conservative politicians - the former Conservative Chairman

:08:31.:08:32.

Lord Fowler, and Andrew Bridgen MP, chair of the regulatory

:08:33.:08:34.

reform select committee. Good evening. The controversy, I

:08:35.:08:46.

suppose, is government directly appointing people who will be

:08:47.:08:50.

directly running the BBC. What do you feel about that? Well, what I

:08:51.:08:58.

did feel until I heard the preamble to the programme, is that there are

:08:59.:09:01.

great dangers in that. But if the story is that John Whittingdale has

:09:02.:09:08.

great dangers in that. But if the changed tack, and that we are now

:09:09.:09:10.

going to have a truly independent board, then obviously that is

:09:11.:09:15.

something to welcome. There is a real problem with the BBC right at

:09:16.:09:18.

the centre of it. This is my concern all along. We have been through this

:09:19.:09:25.

great consultation. Almost everybody has been consulted. And at the end

:09:26.:09:28.

of the day we have a white paper. has been consulted. And at the end

:09:29.:09:33.

Then we think, well, now we have the bill, but you don't. The decision

:09:34.:09:37.

rests with the government. I think this is a central issue which at

:09:38.:09:41.

some stage we need to face. That it shouldn't be left on ministers to

:09:42.:09:46.

decide. It should be parliament, and particularly

:09:47.:09:51.

decide. It should be parliament, and You don't get to vote on it but you

:09:52.:09:55.

can debate on it. Let's be clear, the government will appoint people,

:09:56.:09:56.

directly, to the government will appoint people,

:09:57.:10:01.

runs the BBC. Not a majority but it the government will appoint people,

:10:02.:10:04.

and you are the government will appoint people,

:10:05.:10:10.

that? I would prefer it if all of the board were independent members

:10:11.:10:12.

and were appointed by an independent commission. But if the compromise is

:10:13.:10:18.

the kind of compromise you set out I don't think everybody is going to

:10:19.:10:23.

die in a ditch. We shall have to see the detail and what the numbers

:10:24.:10:28.

actually are. Is it going far enough for you? You have been a critic of

:10:29.:10:33.

the corporation. I am a critic of anything that has authority and

:10:34.:10:37.

power without accountability. The government appointed all of the

:10:38.:10:41.

members of the trust previously. The new board will begin new structure.

:10:42.:10:45.

The unitary board will be responsible. I laid down an

:10:46.:10:52.

The unitary board will be the TV licence. That led to the

:10:53.:11:05.

Perry review. I have to accept that it did not go ahead. What I want to

:11:06.:11:12.

see is a structure, a structure for the BBC to go forward to thrive in a

:11:13.:11:17.

rapidly changing marketplace and respond to that. Before we leave

:11:18.:11:23.

that, it is important to say that the BBC trust, which we all... I, as

:11:24.:11:30.

chairman of select committee at the time, we all advised against that.

:11:31.:11:34.

The Labour government went ahead and put it in. It is very welcome, the

:11:35.:11:45.

BBC trust -- the fact it has gone. Government can go over the opinions

:11:46.:11:50.

of the mass of people and the mass of politicians. As I understand it,

:11:51.:11:55.

leading up to the failure of the trust, this 11 year period which

:11:56.:12:00.

will be a health check five-year stint away to make sure the

:12:01.:12:02.

government system is working, which is very sensible. -- which will be a

:12:03.:12:15.

health check five years into it. Doesn't it always feel like it is

:12:16.:12:21.

always coming up to another review? No, it will be a health check of the

:12:22.:12:25.

government's regime. The last one failed. It isn't a health check on

:12:26.:12:31.

the BBC, it is on the regime. That's right. And there have been scandals

:12:32.:12:36.

recently. You have got to be careful that you don't get into a situation

:12:37.:12:40.

where it feels like the BBC is always under investigation. No

:12:41.:12:46.

business can act like that. It should be under constant

:12:47.:12:52.

examination... It should be but from the independent board. If you are

:12:53.:12:55.

going to have examination, call it what you will, at five years, and

:12:56.:13:01.

then 11 years, the impression is going to be that government

:13:02.:13:05.

ministers are looking over the shoulder of the BBC. We don't want

:13:06.:13:12.

to go back to what I regard as the old nationalised industry where

:13:13.:13:17.

ministers got involved. When the BBC is receiving the thick end of ?4

:13:18.:13:21.

billion of taxpayers money every year I think there needs to be a

:13:22.:13:26.

level of accountability. With the new charter, that will be increasing

:13:27.:13:32.

by inflation. But you have to decide who actually does the process of

:13:33.:13:37.

accounting. That is the crucial question. Do you think it is

:13:38.:13:40.

appropriate for the governing party to play a big part in holding the

:13:41.:13:46.

state broadcaster, let's call it that, to account? The government is

:13:47.:13:51.

elected, after all, does that give us mandate to regulate? Because the

:13:52.:14:00.

BBC is receiving such amounts of taxpayers money, which is 2.5 times

:14:01.:14:05.

the amount of Commonwealth office Budget, the government has a

:14:06.:14:08.

responsibility to the taxpayer to ensure that is delivering value and

:14:09.:14:13.

acting within its charter specifications. In Poland at the

:14:14.:14:17.

moment there is a big controversy, it's been criticised by everybody

:14:18.:14:20.

because it is changing its media government arrangements by putting

:14:21.:14:21.

government appointees on the board. I think one of the crucial things

:14:22.:14:36.

about this review, this charter, is going to be to see how much

:14:37.:14:39.

micromanagement the Government is going to do, and as far as I'm

:14:40.:14:44.

concerned, Iran's number of nationalised industries when I was

:14:45.:14:47.

doing transport, but if you took reduce rail for example, civil

:14:48.:14:55.

servants and Ministers had a look at the organisation, then the Prime

:14:56.:14:58.

Minister had a look at the organisation. It is a bad way of

:14:59.:15:01.

running a big organisation in this country. We have to look at the

:15:02.:15:05.

whole white paper as a whole, we need to have an open mind. It does

:15:06.:15:11.

feel as though it has been watered down, I wonder if that is a pattern,

:15:12.:15:15.

that there is a lot of tough talk and a bit of BBC bashing, the Tory

:15:16.:15:20.

party and the BBC not always the best of friends, but at the end of

:15:21.:15:23.

day, it perhaps does get watered down, is that the perception? The

:15:24.:15:28.

perception is everyone wants to reform the BBC and various things in

:15:29.:15:31.

it, and events happen that supersede those. There are certainly events

:15:32.:15:37.

going on at the moment which are important to the future of our

:15:38.:15:40.

country, perhaps even more important than the future of the BBC. It

:15:41.:15:45.

should be said just before we end that the BBC is one of the most

:15:46.:15:49.

important institutions in this country, and a world leader, and if

:15:50.:15:56.

we have got any sense, we don't take out of it. Thank you both very much

:15:57.:15:58.

indeed. The Queen's inadvertent reveal

:15:59.:16:01.

yesterday, of some of the behind the scenes tensions during the state

:16:02.:16:03.

visit of China's President Li Xiaoping last year,

:16:04.:16:08.

perhaps inadvertently also showed just how well the trip went -

:16:09.:16:10.

that on stage, so little Those smiles all round,

:16:11.:16:13.

were a display of true But tensions there were -

:16:14.:16:18.

and about more than simply a bit Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban has

:16:19.:16:22.

been combing through the footage and has discovered some fresh clues

:16:23.:16:26.

as to the arguments going on. The Queen's ride with President Xi

:16:27.:16:32.

in his state carriage was intended to personify

:16:33.:16:35.

a golden era in relations. But reports that British police had

:16:36.:16:45.

stopped a Chinese intelligence officer being inserted into that

:16:46.:16:48.

carriage as an interpreter are apparently confirmed

:16:49.:16:51.

by a conversation at that The Met police tonight declined

:16:52.:16:53.

to comment on that and an earlier part in the same conversation

:16:54.:17:04.

when the Queen revealed her views It was during that visit that

:17:05.:17:07.

Chinese student demonstrators tried to drown out and screen off Tibetan

:17:08.:17:34.

and other protesters. They complained at the time

:17:35.:17:38.

that they had been given too little space by the police so as not

:17:39.:17:41.

to upset the Chinese. Many in the Foreign Office felt

:17:42.:17:46.

the visit marked their final defeat in China policy by George

:17:47.:17:50.

Osborne and the Treasury. China policy was taken over

:17:51.:17:54.

by George Osborne and a number of people in the Treasury

:17:55.:17:58.

obviously as his advisers, That battle between those who wanted

:17:59.:18:02.

to put trade first and those who had favoured a more assertive policy

:18:03.:18:12.

has ebbed and flowed His decision to meet the Dalai Lama

:18:13.:18:14.

in 2012 caused a deep freeze in relations with Beijing

:18:15.:18:22.

that the Chancellor It certainly is the kind of thing

:18:23.:18:24.

that the Chinese government complains about very publicly,

:18:25.:18:33.

but actually, if you look at what the Cameron government seems

:18:34.:18:38.

to care a great deal about, which is trade and investment,

:18:39.:18:41.

it had almost no impact at all. So the Prime Minister

:18:42.:18:46.

was not welcome in China, but actually, business went

:18:47.:18:49.

on pretty much as usual, and you will find that the Chinese

:18:50.:18:53.

are pretty pragmatic In his fight to push past

:18:54.:18:55.

the Dalai Lama meeting, the Chancellor travelled to the east

:18:56.:19:02.

of China and embraced Chinese bond As the prospect of a Chinese

:19:03.:19:05.

presidential visit grew, the Queen was pressed

:19:06.:19:11.

into the effort, meeting When arrangements were being made

:19:12.:19:13.

for the Chinese premier to visit, there were some quite robust remarks

:19:14.:19:22.

about the visit being cancelled if he was not granted an audience

:19:23.:19:27.

with the Queen, for example. And we seem to be

:19:28.:19:34.

seeing similar stuff. It all has to do, I believe,

:19:35.:19:53.

with the culture of a communist bureaucracy, where officials

:19:54.:19:56.

are desperately keen to earn brownie So determined whether Chancellor

:19:57.:19:59.

and Prime Minister that President Xi Jinping's visit

:20:00.:20:03.

here last year should go without a hitch,

:20:04.:20:04.

they tried to ban various senior public figures

:20:05.:20:07.

from seeing the Dalai Lama. They asked Prince Charles,

:20:08.:20:09.

for example, not to do so, and for a written guarantee

:20:10.:20:11.

from Nick Clegg that In the past seven months,

:20:12.:20:13.

some of the sparkle has already Joining me now is the Hong Kong-born

:20:14.:20:27.

entrepreneur Sir David Tang, who attended the state banquet

:20:28.:20:39.

for the Chinese President during his So when you are at that banquet, was

:20:40.:20:46.

their talk and gossip about tensions and things going on behind the

:20:47.:20:51.

scenes? Know, everything was very friendly, and it was a very fine

:20:52.:20:56.

banquet, no hitches at all. One of the charges is that the Queen feels

:20:57.:21:01.

that the amp bustard, that the Chinese team were rude to the

:21:02.:21:05.

ambassador. It could be that they were rude, it could be a

:21:06.:21:14.

ambassador. It could be that they clash. Nobody will know because we

:21:15.:21:18.

weren't there. There are two different cultures and two different

:21:19.:21:22.

languages. I speak both English and Chinese, and for us Chinese even, we

:21:23.:21:28.

are very monosyllabic and very loud and very blunt, because it is

:21:29.:21:35.

staccato, every word is a singular sound, so even to ourselves we sound

:21:36.:21:39.

a bit rude, so to the west and we might sound very rude. And when that

:21:40.:21:44.

is translated into English, that is even possibly more rude. When I went

:21:45.:21:50.

to Beijing and I wanted an alarm call, when the phone came at seven

:21:51.:21:55.

o'clock, I picked up the phone, and at the other end, the concierge

:21:56.:22:02.

says, get out! For the Chinese, that is not rude. So there could be a

:22:03.:22:07.

cultural misunderstanding, one would hope that the ambassador at least

:22:08.:22:14.

would understand. British diplomats are very soft-spoken. Did you know

:22:15.:22:18.

anything about the row over who got into the carriage to ride with the

:22:19.:22:25.

Queen? I think only the interpreter, who was probably the security guard

:22:26.:22:30.

as well. He obviously spoke Chinese and English, but this whole incident

:22:31.:22:38.

is really a storm in a teacup. If the gold commander, as she was

:22:39.:22:42.

called, should complain about the Chinese, I can't imagine what she

:22:43.:22:46.

would be like dealing with the Americans. All these people in dark

:22:47.:22:53.

glasses with Ian things coming out looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

:22:54.:22:59.

They must have been incredibly... Do you think the Chinese care about

:23:00.:23:04.

this kerfuffle? They appeared to care enough that they censored it

:23:05.:23:12.

from the BBC One broadcast -- BBC World broadcast. This incident is

:23:13.:23:20.

completely a storm in a teacup. I actually thought that it was rather

:23:21.:23:25.

odd for the Lord Chamberlain to bring this subject up at a garden

:23:26.:23:35.

party. They were enjoying, albeit raining rather heavily, but why do

:23:36.:23:38.

you want to talk about somebody being rude ten months ago when you

:23:39.:23:44.

could be talking about so many things? They could be making small

:23:45.:23:47.

talk about the rain and the weather! Do you think the Chinese would be

:23:48.:23:52.

surprised that it has been broadcast and publicised everywhere? I don't

:23:53.:24:00.

think so. Not even the Chinese, but I shouldn't imagine the British

:24:01.:24:03.

Government couldn't care less about how this was interpreted. It is

:24:04.:24:09.

really a non-incident. The fact that they heard what the Queen said, the

:24:10.:24:14.

Queen is perfectly entitled to her own private conversation. I blame,

:24:15.:24:19.

I'm afraid, again the Lord Chamberlain for putting a microphone

:24:20.:24:23.

near her and not heeding that whatever she said could have been

:24:24.:24:29.

heard. What is the general state of Anglo-Chinese relations at the

:24:30.:24:35.

moment? You have Chancellor George Osborne, you can't get more slick

:24:36.:24:43.

than him, he is like an Exxon Valdez oil slick as far as the Chinese are

:24:44.:24:48.

concerned, and they love it! Thank you very much.

:24:49.:24:52.

The American attorney general Loretta Lynch ignited a huge buzz

:24:53.:24:54.

of excitement this week, with some words on the rights

:24:55.:24:56.

It wasn't even a speech as such, but merely a statement

:24:57.:25:00.

She was announcing that the US government is taking action

:25:01.:25:03.

against the state of North Carolina, which has courted controversy

:25:04.:25:08.

by passing legislation that demands everybody uses the bathroom that

:25:09.:25:11.

accords to their gender at birth, rather than the gender

:25:12.:25:13.

The arguments have been raging on that, but the intervention

:25:14.:25:18.

of the attorney general has been called the "I have a dream moment"

:25:19.:25:21.

This law provides no benefit to society, and all it does is harm

:25:22.:25:32.

innocent Americans. And instead of turning away from our neighbours,

:25:33.:25:36.

friends and colleagues, let us instead learn from our history and

:25:37.:25:40.

avoid repeating the mistakes of our past. Some of you have lived freely

:25:41.:25:46.

for decades, and others of you are still wondering how you could

:25:47.:25:48.

possibly live the lives that you were born to lead. But no matter how

:25:49.:25:55.

isolated, no matter how afraid and no matter how alone you may feel

:25:56.:25:59.

today, know this. That the Department of Justice and indeed the

:26:00.:26:02.

in tire Obama administration want you to know that we see you.

:26:03.:26:06.

Interesting to hear a comparison made to the civil rights

:26:07.:26:11.

From bathroom rights to bigger things.

:26:12.:26:14.

Over a few years we've seen dramatic changes in attitudes

:26:15.:26:16.

towards trans issues, but does the comparison

:26:17.:26:18.

to the advance in black civil rights stand?

:26:19.:26:22.

Joining me now is Kerri Kupec, who works for the Alliance Defending

:26:23.:26:25.

And from San Francisco, the executive director

:26:26.:26:28.

of the Transgender Law Center, Kris Hayashi.

:26:29.:26:34.

Thank you both for joining us. Kris, if I could start with you, how

:26:35.:26:43.

excited are you buy that Loretta Lynch statement? The federal

:26:44.:26:49.

government made it clear that discrimination against transgender

:26:50.:26:53.

people will not stand, and as I watched the Attorney General speak

:26:54.:26:56.

on Monday, I thought about all of the transgender leaders,

:26:57.:27:01.

particularly transgender women of colour who have fought for rights,

:27:02.:27:05.

whose work bought us to this moment, and who I no longer with us because

:27:06.:27:10.

of hatred and violence. As a transgender man myself, someone who,

:27:11.:27:14.

when I was born, the doctor said I was a girl, but I have always known

:27:15.:27:19.

myself to be a man and I have lived most of my life as a man, is a

:27:20.:27:23.

transgender person of colour, I have rarely felt truly seen by the people

:27:24.:27:29.

and systems that make up our government, and Monday was a rare

:27:30.:27:33.

moment where I not only felt seen, but I felt that the federal

:27:34.:27:37.

government would join with us in this battle against discrimination.

:27:38.:27:43.

Kerri, where you moved at all by the Attorney General's statement on

:27:44.:27:48.

Monday? I was moved, but I was not moved in a positive way, as both an

:27:49.:27:53.

attorney and a woman, I was very concerned about the words coming

:27:54.:27:56.

from our nation's chief attorney. Yes it is important to see everyone,

:27:57.:28:02.

as she said, absolutely, but the problem with her words is she was

:28:03.:28:07.

ignoring and quite rightly marginalising millions of women

:28:08.:28:09.

across this country who understandably and justifiably feel

:28:10.:28:15.

very concerned about the idea of allowing men into intimate settings

:28:16.:28:17.

like a women's allowing men into intimate settings

:28:18.:28:24.

Attorney General is taking, using the Civil Rights act to take action

:28:25.:28:29.

against the Civil Rights act to take action

:28:30.:28:32.

that point, and you think that is an abuse of the Civil Rights act to do

:28:33.:28:33.

that Chris? abuse of the Civil Rights act to do

:28:34.:28:42.

privacy law is fully compliant abuse of the Civil Rights act to do

:28:43.:28:49.

federal law. It forbids discrimination on the basis of sex,

:28:50.:28:55.

and sex. That does not include gender identity or how one perceives

:28:56.:28:57.

their gender and sex. The plain meaning of the text says biological

:28:58.:29:05.

sex. The legislative history, the sponsors of the bills at the same,

:29:06.:29:08.

in fact of the sponsors of one of the act of the Department of Justice

:29:09.:29:09.

specifically says that the act of the Department of Justice

:29:10.:29:14.

that facilities can still maintain sex-specific facilities. And there

:29:15.:29:23.

is a real irony here. Protecting against sex discrimination in the

:29:24.:29:26.

60s and 70s came as a result of combating Sextus ruination against

:29:27.:29:29.

60s and 70s came as a result of women. Women

:29:30.:29:31.

60s and 70s came as a result of shake in employment and

:29:32.:29:33.

60s and 70s came as a result of these same laws that were designed

:29:34.:29:36.

60s and 70s came as a result of to protect women are now being used

:29:37.:29:40.

against women, and telling women that regardless of how they feel,

:29:41.:29:43.

regardless of what their feelings and concerns are,

:29:44.:29:46.

regardless of what their feelings into their locker rooms, and

:29:47.:29:51.

regardless of what their feelings trump women's. Kris, hold your

:29:52.:29:56.

discussion on the bathroom policy, I just want to know

:29:57.:29:59.

discussion on the bathroom policy, I about using the Civil Rights act for

:30:00.:30:01.

the transgender movement, because clearly that wasn't what was in the

:30:02.:30:05.

mind of those who drafted that back in the 1960s. It is very

:30:06.:30:10.

straightforward. Transgender people are protected from discrimination

:30:11.:30:16.

under Sextus rumination law. We are protected from discrimination in

:30:17.:30:20.

employment under title seven, transgender students are protected

:30:21.:30:27.

from discrimination, and in the transgender Law Centre in 2012 won

:30:28.:30:32.

the case and made very clear that transgender people are protected

:30:33.:30:39.

from discrimination. What the eternal General did was simply

:30:40.:30:48.

reaffirm the law. Kerri, you can't see that Mac one, he is in the other

:30:49.:30:51.

studio. What is your problem with him going into amen's bathroom. It

:30:52.:30:57.

wouldn't be common sense for him to go into a women's bathroom, which is

:30:58.:31:02.

what North Carolina forces him to do.

:31:03.:31:08.

They force those to undress. It is a fundamental right to privacy.

:31:09.:31:20.

Everybody deserves that. This law strips the right of privacy from

:31:21.:31:24.

everybody who understandably, and justifiably, feel concerned about

:31:25.:31:29.

the idea of undressing in front of a biological man. I think it is not

:31:30.:31:34.

what about the ones or what I want, but what is best for the millions of

:31:35.:31:38.

people across this country who have concerns. Those concerns should be

:31:39.:31:42.

recognised. These people shouldn't be slandered or attacked but should

:31:43.:31:49.

be recognised. Do you understand that? As a transgender person safety

:31:50.:31:56.

is important. But transgender people face disproportionate rates of

:31:57.:32:02.

violence and harassment. There are already laws in place in North

:32:03.:32:06.

Carolina. It is true across the country to protect women, children,

:32:07.:32:12.

anyone from facing this. The reality of the law is that it opens the door

:32:13.:32:18.

for harassment. Not just against transgender people but against

:32:19.:32:20.

anybody who looks a bit different. Against anyone who doesn't fit in

:32:21.:32:26.

the stereotypes of what a man or a woman should look like. Do you

:32:27.:32:33.

accept transgender people as equal, do they deserve full protection

:32:34.:32:36.

against discrimination at work in college, in housing, all of these

:32:37.:32:41.

different areas? Discrimination and bullying should never be tolerated.

:32:42.:32:45.

But we're not talking about that. We are talking about a fundamental,

:32:46.:32:50.

since right to bodily privacy. We are talking about millions of people

:32:51.:32:56.

who understandably don't feel comfortable... Really, really, was

:32:57.:33:03.

it really a problem in North Carolina before they pass the bill,

:33:04.:33:06.

where millions of men and women around America thinking, my

:33:07.:33:11.

goodness, my life is ruined because my right to bodily privacy is being

:33:12.:33:14.

undermined by transgender people using my bathroom? I'm not saying

:33:15.:33:21.

that. I'm saying that opening bathrooms and locker rooms to

:33:22.:33:25.

whoever wants to come in. Somebody can come in and say I identify as

:33:26.:33:29.

such therefore I can go in. That opens the door to those who would

:33:30.:33:32.

abuse those laws to gain access to the people inside for bad reasons.

:33:33.:33:37.

As a woman, if a man enters the locker room I can get the manager, I

:33:38.:33:43.

can say, you don't belong here. Now, if we open our locker room and rest

:33:44.:33:47.

rooms I cannot say anything until something actually happens to me. We

:33:48.:33:54.

need to leave it. This is not about transgender people, this is about

:33:55.:33:56.

the rights of everybody. Thank you. Well, if you are someone

:33:57.:34:00.

who likes trans rights, you may also like the art and music

:34:01.:34:02.

of the late David Bowie. Which brings us to a rare chance

:34:03.:34:05.

to hear from someone who was a muse Lindsay Kemp is actually one

:34:06.:34:09.

of the most extraordinary performers It wasn't just Bowie

:34:10.:34:14.

he was close to, he also taught Now 78, he's the last

:34:15.:34:18.

of the bohemians, equally at home performing mime in a striptease club

:34:19.:34:22.

or dancing for his many Kemp lives in Italy and he hasn't

:34:23.:34:24.

returned to the UK for 15 years. But he's back, to teach

:34:25.:34:36.

a class at Rada in London. And to talk sex, 'Strictly' -

:34:37.:34:38.

and Morris dancing - You see, I never walked

:34:39.:34:41.

in the streets, I always danced. I found dancing much more

:34:42.:34:46.

pleasurable than walking. because I didn't march,

:34:47.:34:53.

I danced. I was doing a little

:34:54.:34:56.

show of the tiny theatre -- I was doing a little

:34:57.:35:14.

show at a tiny theatre David Bowie was in the audience one

:35:15.:35:17.

night as a 19-year-old boy. He came to my dressing room

:35:18.:35:22.

and he was like the Archangel the Archangel Gabriel standing

:35:23.:35:30.

there, I was, like, you know, Mary, He expressed the desire to work

:35:31.:35:34.

with me, to learn from me, and at the time I was teaching dance

:35:35.:35:41.

classes at the Dance Centre in Covent Garden, so he enrolled

:35:42.:35:44.

the following day. # Poor Harlequin you're quite

:35:45.:35:48.

an exception # A troubadour

:35:49.:35:53.

on a downer #. Kemp and Bowie became lovers

:35:54.:35:57.

and toured Kemp's production of The Pierot In Turquoise,

:35:58.:36:04.

which was later adapted for TV. He told me he met me just in time,

:36:05.:36:10.

because he was on his He had been studying Buddhism quite

:36:11.:36:13.

seriously and was considering taking He did declare later on,

:36:14.:36:21.

Lindsay, save me from And quitting the business,

:36:22.:36:25.

was that... And quitting the business, yeah,

:36:26.:36:28.

he wasn't getting anywhere, he was certainly multifaceted,

:36:29.:36:33.

a chameleon, a splendid, shining, always inspired creature,

:36:34.:36:36.

a genius of a creature. # There's a star man

:36:37.:36:38.

waiting in the sky # He'd like to come

:36:39.:36:52.

and meet us # But he thinks he'd

:36:53.:36:59.

blow our minds #. Kemp collaborated with Bowie

:37:00.:37:02.

on the stage show of Ziggy Stardust, which was the making

:37:03.:37:07.

of the singer, though by then their

:37:08.:37:09.

relationship had ended. My best friend, needless to say,

:37:10.:37:11.

you know, just like in the mags. I foolishly, and rather

:37:12.:37:32.

theatrically, and not too seriously, attempted to cut my

:37:33.:37:37.

wrists, you know. I was taken to the hospital,

:37:38.:37:38.

the doctor looked at them, Oops.

:37:39.:37:42.

and sent me back and said, Bad luck.

:37:43.:37:58.

than me, she was revived # And she can't stop

:37:59.:38:13.

till them shoes fall off # These shoes do,

:38:14.:38:15.

a kind of voodoo #. Another willing pupil of Kemp's

:38:16.:38:17.

was Kate Bush, though at first Modest, she was, she was always

:38:18.:38:20.

at the back and I was forever having But once she started moving,

:38:21.:38:27.

and improvising, she was dynamic. One evening, returning to my house

:38:28.:38:36.

in Battersea, there was a record shoved under

:38:37.:38:42.

the door, The Kick Inside, and on the record there was the song

:38:43.:38:45.

Moving, which she wrote, His proteges have gone on to great

:38:46.:38:48.

things, but Kemp is happy just to be on stage performing mime or dance,

:38:49.:39:11.

whether it is at Rada this week, the billing "Lindsay Kemp

:39:12.:39:21.

Mimes His Own Business". I worked in some of those striptease

:39:22.:39:25.

clubs. Oh, well, it was a joy,

:39:26.:39:27.

I liked it. For me it is all part

:39:28.:39:35.

of my world of entertainment, It looked good, it smelt good,

:39:36.:39:39.

and it was just full The tea rooms, I believe,

:39:40.:39:46.

are still there. the money to enjoy, eclairs,

:39:47.:39:58.

their delicious eclairs, I would treat myself to them

:39:59.:40:00.

from time to time. Are you aware of the phenomena

:40:01.:40:03.

of Strictly, over in Italy? because there was a lull

:40:04.:40:08.

after the demise of Morris Where do you stand on Morris

:40:09.:40:10.

dancing? That famous phrase, I'll try

:40:11.:40:16.

anything except Morris Well, I don't think

:40:17.:40:22.

I've tried incest yet, Nick Watt on. -- Nick Watt is here.

:40:23.:40:53.

Cameron rejects TV debate on Europe is the Daily Telegraph headline,

:40:54.:40:56.

what do we know about this? The government wants to avoid a row with

:40:57.:41:01.

the BBC but there are still some ups and downs. We've heard Downing

:41:02.:41:05.

Street has agreed the first series of elections the referendum debate.

:41:06.:41:13.

With the BBC discussions are ongoing. That is because Downing

:41:14.:41:24.

Street are worried about the mention of Wembley Arena. They think it

:41:25.:41:30.

might be like what happened in Glasgow, where it was a bit hostile

:41:31.:41:35.

in the Better Together Campaign. But a major row has broken out on the

:41:36.:41:43.

ITV debates. They are saying that Nigel Farage is not part of the

:41:44.:41:46.

official campaign, why you not inviting us. It looks like the

:41:47.:41:51.

government is trying to choose its own opposition and we will sue ITV,

:41:52.:41:52.

they are saying. Thanks very much. That's all we have time

:41:53.:41:57.

for tonight; it's James O'Brien Probably with more on the BBC White

:41:58.:42:00.

Paper. A largely dry and cool weekend to

:42:01.:42:16.

come. A few showers

:42:17.:42:17.

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