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We're not going to be bullied by anybody, least of all
the unelected, charming though he may be, Jean-Claude Juncker.
The British thing to do is to fight inside the European Union.
With 15 days to go, 2 politicians made their case in 60
minutes of argument, so was there a winner?
It was certainly a chance for Nigel Farage to lead
Do you think your company has outgrown your ability to manage it?
Probably, a long time ago. Also tonight: Is this another,
unacceptable face of capitalism? And why did it take a newspaper,
rather than the authorities to spot I stand with Hillary
because I'm a woman. But why are so many women not
supporting the democrat No one has had a busier
day than Nigel Farage. The man who is not at the helm
of the Leave campaign, This afternoon, he was defending
himself against attack This evening, he was in front
of an audience in one of the set-piece TV
events of the campaign. There was no knockout blow. But it
presented a much better way to see Nigel Farage perform than we have
seen so far. The official Leave
campaign think Mr Farage is unhelpful to their cause,
driving voters away, But the truth is, the Leave campaign
has only started breaking through, since it took a leaf or two out
Mr Farage's campaign book. Our political editor,
Nick Watt, has been looking We will get your take on Nigel
Farage's base in the debate, but a quick summary of how you thought the
IDV extravaganza when? -- ITV extravaganza when. David Cameron
came under pressure regarding the edge rated claims regarding the
effects on the economy, and also the area he does not want to talk about,
immigration, Nigel Farage came under pressure for those comments he made
linking cologne attacks with members of the European Union, and also a
testy in cancer with a black British motor about Ukip's view of those
voters -- testing encounter with a black British voter. The Prime
Minister will be happy, because Nigel Farage has been put centre
stage and the Leave campaign believes he is toxic, but Nigel
Farage is happy because he is back where he believes he should be, on
terrestrial television. Few other things quickly. Midnight tonight,
registration for voting in the referendum closes. If you have not
done it by then you will not have a vote, and so what will we know about
the electorate? We will get a statement tomorrow on the numbers of
people who have registered to vote and the indications are that more
people are registering to vote than registered for the general election,
and it appears that the 18-24 year old age group and people who live
abroad are registering in higher numbers than they did last year and
those are the kind of people who might vote for Remain and that might
be good news for them. If it is a low turnout, below 55%, that is good
for Brexit but if it is 65%, it is good for Remain, but if you go back
about 75% it is good news for Brexit. There is good news for
Leave, as well? Lord Hayward, he is one of the people who got closest to
the general election prediction last year. He is not a pollster? He
analyses them, former Conservative MP, he is a Remain supporter but he
is going to call the referendum for Leave and he will say barring some
unforeseen accident, he thinks that Leave are on course to win and he
says he notices demographics who he thinks should be Remain, they are in
fact Leave, and that is motorway man. We will bring you a bit of that
debate and a bit more Nigel Farage later.
With me now is the former shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper
who supports Britain remaining in the EU and the Conservative
MP Kwasi Kwarteng who wants Britain to leave.
Do you agree on the debate, it was a score draw? The significant thing
that you did not refer to is the fact that Nigel Farage did admit
that there would be tariffs, which he shrugged off the impact, on jobs,
I thought that was a serious point, especially the dismissal of the
pharmaceutical industry is something, we can watch them leave
the country, that would not matter. They are bad guys because they have
been hitting alternative medicine, that was a strange moment. The Leave
campaign are being cavalier with people's jobs and livelihoods. It
might not be Nigel Farage who is hit by this. I will answer your
question. Rather than rerunning the debate. The question is fair, the
Prime Minister made interesting points and Nigel Farage also held
his own, it was a score draw as you suggested. I'm not going to rerun
the debate. We can talk about that later. And now a taste of the debate
right now. So, yes, the reform
goes on, but of course Here is what really
happens if we leave. Of course we would still want
to sell into that single market, so we would still have to meet
all the rules and regulations that Brussels lays down,
but we won't be at the table. We will be like a country
with our ear and face pressed up against the glass,
trying to find out what is happening with the other 27 countries, making
rules that affect our country. I would say that is no way
for the fifth biggest economy We need to be in this organisation,
fighting the British The use of the word quitting came up
quite a lot. We can carry on the discussion for now. Kwasi, Nigel
Farage has basically been excluded by the official campaign, they think
he is to Marmite. He is campaigning in his own way and he makes
outlandish statements which get attention, but I think the campaign
can be run on its merits and the Leave campaign is getting its
message through and the race is tightening. Do you think that Leave
should give him more prominence question not he's a consummate
performer. -- prominence? I'm not going to praise the skies, I will
give him seven out of ten, I thought he made the case about immigration.
I'm the son of an immigrant, it is not about being against immigration,
but it is about control and I thought he did that effectively.
Would you like to see the Leave campaign like to put more weight on
Nigel Farage? The Leave campaign have been shifting to a Nigel Farage
style approach, the cavalier approach to the facts, for example.
The claim about the ?350 million on the bus which is a load of rubbish.
That is not Nigel Farage's claim. That is his style. Also, Turkey
about to join Europe, we know that Cyprus would veto it, Cyprus. It was
official government policy, the policy of your government, as well.
You think that Turkey is about to join the EU? Our million Turks going
to join any moment? -- are a million Turks. We don't need an argument. Do
you think that the Remain side are running out of ideas question mark
David Cameron repeats the lines about the economy and the single
market. Maybe you need another six phrases, things which sound a bit
more positive and reasons to stay. There is a bigger argument about our
place in the world and the influence that we have in the world. If we cut
ourselves off, the reason we as a small island have such impact in the
world is because we are a member, not just the European Union about
other organisations. If we pull out, we cut ourselves off and that makes
us weaker for the future. There are those ardent scum and the other
items we have been there are those arguments and the
other is the Labour Party has been trying to put forward, the likes of
workers' rights which are so important. The most radical Labour
government was 1945, they reshaped the welfare state, and that nothing
to do with the EU. It is regarded, become at the government, as one of
the shining lights -- the Clement Attlee government. That is
absolutely true. The British government has always done a whole
series of things... We will carry on doing so. We can carry on doing all
kinds of things without the EU. What about the parting shot of David
Cameron? Great Britain... Do not fall for Nigel Farage's little
England vision. I don't share that vision and I can't speak for Nigel
Farage. I'm not a little England, my parents have come from Ghana, part
of the British Commonwealth and I feel very connected to other parts
of the world and I spent a year in America. We are very international
in our outlook and I feel it is Great Britain against little England
is false, that is not what the debate is about. It is that national
sovereignty and controlling immigration, and having some control
of our own destiny. Can I have a comment from each of you about where
the state of play is at the moment? This news that Rob Hayward, Lord
Hayward, he's one expert, he seems to be: yet for Leave. -- calling it
for Leave. It is a good thing that more young people are registering to
vote, the clock is still ticking, still time for people to register.
It will be about young people's future, that is what will decide it.
It will be very close. The polls are tightening, and I want as many
people to vote as possible. The idea we want a restricted turnout is
false, I want as many people do indoors whatever decision the
British people make as possible. -- to endorse. Laax. We
Away from the referendum, the most absorbing political
spectacle today was the appearance in front of the Business Select
Committee of Mike Ashley, the founder of Sports Direct.
The MPs wanted to ask him about his unusually brutal
treatment of staff - if you're a minute late,
you lose 15 minutes of pay was one example of his munificence.
He had originally declined to meet the committee,
Our new Business Editor, Helen Thomas was watching
The tough guy of British retail arriving for a showdown
His public image, that of a truculent wealthy boss,
obsessed with profits over the welfare of his workforce.
Instead, Westminster was surprised by a dose of Mike Ashley candour.
Do you accept that the company was effectively paying workers
On that specific point, for that specific bit of time, yes.
This, an admission that the time staff had spent in security checks
at Sports Direct's massive Derbyshire warehouse
If you were a minute late, you got docked 15 minutes pay.
You asked me what I think, I think that is unacceptable.
If one of my kids went to work somewhere and they were two minutes
late and they got fined 15 minutes pay I would not be very
He even issued an open invitation to prying MPs.
Could we turn up unannounced at a date we don't tell you about?
But all I want is fairness and balance.
You will be let in and everything else.
I'm telling you, you will find things wrong, but then let's do it
MPs don't want this kind of planned press tour.
They are interested in an unvarnished look.
The horror stories of fearful employees working through sickness,
of one woman giving birth in the toilet and of
a business overly reliant on zero hours contracts.
That is workers with limited rights and no guarantee of work.
But Sports Direct has not just been taking flak from trade
Investors have also bulked at Mr Ashley's grip on the company
Today, for the first time, a hint that there could be change.
In the boardroom as well as on the shop floor.
You are someone who has created an extraordinary company.
You have created a lot of wealth and a lot of it has gone to you.
You have created a lot of wealth and done something remarkable,
but do you think your company has outgrown your ability to manage it?
Some of the things you have said today would actually lead me
to believe that it has definitely outgrown me.
Mike Ashley did not want to come to London.
Trade unions, politicians and investors, they have all tried
to get him to change the way he does business, none have succeeded,
but today he admitted that as the company has grown,
Sports Direct has failed its low paid staff.
The irony is that it took the kind of media and political circus that
Mike Ashley appears to so despise to hold the company to account.
Today, Mike Ashley, tomorrow BHS bosses will face MPs.
Some of the more colourful parts of British business are being
dragged, like it or not, into the spotlight.
A lot of people look at Mike Ashley, or at recent events at BHS,
or low-tax paying multinationals and wonder whether there
is some kind of problem with capitalism, or capitalists.
But you might also ask, where are the authorities in this?
Are we soft on anti social businesses?
The man to tell us is Sir David Norgrove, chairman
That has the job of assessing the minimum wage, not enforcing it.
He was also chairman of the Pensions Regulator,
which governs workplace pensions, a big issue in the BHS case.
Good evening to you. It's interesting that this happened.
Should the authorities be worried that people think it is better to
hit them by going to read newspaper, rather than reporting them? A lot of
people are. H MRC pinfalls it. More people should go to them and
complain if they think they are not getting the amount of money they
think they should be getting. -- HMRC is responsible for it. What
proportion of that is detected, this below minimum wage payment? It is
difficult, possibly rough estimates are possible. Give me a rough
estimate, it must be a few hundred cases. It is in the thousands, the
complaints that get followed up. The estimate is roughly about .5% of
employees. Are? Page below. -- paid below. Do you think the penalties
are big enough? The penalties have quadrupled over the past few years,
they are real or higher... You can be fined up to ?20,000 per employee.
For example, one employer we know of was fined ?500,000, when a few years
ago they would have only had to pay a fuse house in pounds. There has
been a big increase. -- a few thousand pounds. Thanks to naming
and shaming this has had an effect. Mike Ashley has reached an agreement
with HMRC. We don't know what the agreement is. At some stage it will
be published. Why won't it be public straightaway? You would have to ask
HMRC. I don't know. Don't you find it odd, it should be open justice,
do we sit and negotiate with these people who have done something quite
bad? In many cases they are published. Penalties are published.
The company has to account to local newspapers, or local television when
it has done something wrong. Is it good enough that he pays the money
he should have paid to his staff, and maybe pay some extra, and
doesn't, for example, do a few nights in jail, or have to come you
know, do community service for a couple of weeks... We would like to
see more prosecutions than there are. Criminal prosecutions, we are
talking about four, five. Yes, very small numbers. We want to see more.
I don't want to sound wimpish. Prosecutions are very expensive and
time-consuming. I think this is what makes the public so angry. The idea
that they will go after a false benefit claimants. Would they treat
an employer in the same way as a benefit cheat? Somebody who makes a
false claim... I don't know enough about the net and -- about benefit
claimants. Standing back from the minimum wage commission, do you
think we are a soft touch? The pensions regulation is just catching
up with what has been going on at BHS, a lot of money has been taken
out of the company, the pension is now in deficit, and it is now on a
state sponsored insurance system... I do think life is changing a bit.
As the world becomes more international it becomes more
legalistic, bit more like America, where people play up to the limit of
the rolls. There is a case for us being tougher. We have seen that the
city with financial regulation. -- of the rules. Interesting
reflection. You mentioned in the US, you would see people being
handcuffed and walked out of the office, white-collar criminals,
utterly humiliated. Not named and shamed, not find money, but
absolutely being trashed on television, probably live. I'm not
sure they would lock up people who failed to pay the minimum wage. In
America they have a different system. It is very legislation and
litigation based. And not a lot up to that point. They have a nuclear
deterrent, and nothing which is conventional before that. We have
graduated approach. Maybe we could use the extreme options more than we
do. But there are some advantages in being to have discretion and make
people stick to principles. I don't want to put words in your mouth. But
you think we could not it on to being a bit tougher, don't you? I
do. -- nudge it. Lets get the latest on today's
political news... The man on the left called the referendum, but it
was the man on the right to cause to the referendum to be held after
placing the idea of a UK exit from the EU firmly into the political
mainstream. Will the real David Cameron please stand up. Despite his
role in triggering the referendum, Nigel Barrett has found his role
downgraded after a rival Brexit group, Vote Leave, won the
resignation. He believes they only appeal to a narrow section of the
electorate. They became embroiled with aggressive account is. You are
anti immigration. You are scaremongering. In your campaign you
have gone against people who do not look white. Discrimination. I want
to know what you're going to do about it, that is what I want to
know. If we have an Australian style points system rather than an open
door, actually, there is big support for this amongst the ethnic
minorities in this country, who know that our current open door policy is
damaging all of our communities. Here is our chance, maybe our only
chance as a nation, to get a grip on this issue. The Prime Minister also
came under pressure on one of his weak spots, immigration. I have no
GP. I cannot get onto the housing ladder and I have three children in
one room. The place where I grew up used to a lovely area but is now a
no-go zone. How is this system working for somebody like me? There
are good ways of controlling immigration and bad ways of
controlling immigration. A good way is just what I explained, people can
come here, work, contribute, but they have to pay in before they get
anything out... Difficult encounters for both, but they left reasonably
happy. The Prime Minister avoided debating fellow Tories, and Nigel
Farage returned to centre stage. He regards that as his rightful place
because he said it is his ideas that are driving the Leave campaign. Vote
Leave members say you are toxic. That's why they don't want me in the
campaign. They have no comprehension about how to fight a proper
campaign. Just because they followed my lead, on understanding open
borders, the effects of mass immigration on normal people, now
they followed my lead it will probably lead to a win. Remain as
having a bumpy ride and they agree. They say their opponents in the
official campaign are being controlled whether they like it or
not by a hidden hand. One senior Remains strategist has likened the
influence of the Ukip leader to the dark but largely unseen figure of
Keyzer Soze. Some people are saying that you are the invisible dark
force and was running it. To be compared to Peter Mandelson is a
large compliment. Although Leave have pinched a lot of his ideas,
they are keeping them at the distance from him come because they
believe he repels voters. The official Vote Leave campaign hope
that he will go the way of Keyzer Soze. But the Ukip leader and the
Remain campaign hope to upend the film and ensure he keeps his role in
the referendum movie. It's been such a tumultuous
year in US politics, you might have overlooked
the momentous point the fact that for the first time,
one of the two main parties appears to have more or less
now settled on a woman Hillary Clinton has
certainly made history. Now her fight is to be back in the
White House, not as first Lady, but as first female president. We are on
the brink of an historic unprecedented moment. But we still
have work to do, don't we? One of the striking features of the
Democratic presidential race is that Hillary has not found she
automatically gets backing from women voters. And particularly the
younger ones have been charmed by Bernie Sanders. Is this now the
moment to shed any political misgivings about Hillary and to
rejoice? We can now discuss this. Jill, you
are a supporter of Clinton, do you have any reservations, or is this
the time for women to celebrate her elevation to this point? I do think
it is a moment to celebrate. It is almost eerie that it was exactly to
the date, you know, in 2008 when she made her famous concession speech
when she talked about having made 18 million cracks in the hardest glass
ceiling of all. Now today, these years later, she, as you pointed
out, it will be the first woman nominee of a major US party. That is
history making. But I think you are absolutely right, that for someone
who is more my generation, that is far more meaningful than a lot of
younger women. Can I just ask you, are you supporting her because you
like her politics, and she happens to be a woman, and you are glad for
that, or are you basically excited and supporting her because she is a
woman, this is a feminist thing, this is a gender thing? It is not
the latter, no, it isn't a gender thing. I think she is very well
qualified to be president. And most of the time she has good judgment.
She has the experience to do the job. What we are not mentioning is
compared to whom? I think Donald Trump is getting the attention of
the younger women right now. He has stolen the show, he is the big story
of the year. It's true, he led the news today. Let me put all of this
to Tennessee. You are not so thrilled by Hillary Clinton, why is
that? It is about a lot of things. My generation have been activated.
My friends, people who felt like their voices were completely unheard
by politicians, have registered to vote and showing up because there is
somebody talking about all of the things that are really important to
us. People struggling in this country, people who are being killed
because of the colour of their skin, put in prison, you know, there is a
lot of really serious things going on. Tennessee, just let me ask you
this, when you hear someone in say you should be supporting Hillary
Clinton as a sort of sisterhood thing, does that make you more
inclined to, how does that play, that argument? Obviously, there need
to be more women in politics. There needs to be more diversity in
politics. But, you know, the politics should come first, not the
gender. I don't want Hillary Clinton to be the first female president of
the US. You are going to vote for Hillary, rather than Donald Trump, I
am guessing, correct, so you will rally around? Of course. Just for
women's reproductive rights issues alone, we have to vote for as many
Democrats as we can. It is a crazy time right now in this country.
In terms of the relationship of women with American politics, one of
the criticisms of Hillary Clinton, she talks about feminism and women's
rights, but she has a conservative stance in the Democrat spectrum, she
is not the best person for women, is that fair? I don't think that is
fair. Regarding many issues, like foreign policy, she is more of a
hawk than the progressive wing of the Democratic party, so she is out
of step and her vote on the Iraq war is one of the things that is really
disturbing to younger progressive voters. On women's issues her record
is almost flawless. She has been fighting for reproductive rights for
her whole life, practically. She has worked very hard for better
childcare laws and she wants to raise the minimum wage which would
be very meaningful to women service workers. Does that hold much weight
with you, Tennessee? Do you think of her as not being grateful women? --
great for women? She is a woman and that is good for women, but to use
that to get people to vote for her is inappropriate given all of the
other issues. And we have this other candidate Bernie Sanders who is also
a feminist, being a feminist is not just about being a woman, it is
about where they stand on all these issues. Hillary Clinton has a lot of
critics and clearly if they criticise her ankles you can dismiss
that as misogyny or people who have a difficulty imagining someone in
his role as president who is a woman. She has many more critics
than you might expect. I wonder if you think her critics are basically
misogynists or are they people that raise valid points? The horse was of
her voice, sometimes she has been shouting, people born that outcome
is that sexist or just part of the cut and thrust of ordinary one ticks
question mark -- people point that out, is that sexist or just hard of
the cut and thrust of ordinary politics? I don't actually think
that is the most... Those are the most important criticisms of her,
there are legitimate criticisms of her. She's very slow to apologise
for making mistakes. When she left the State Department it was a
mistake to sign up with a very well-known speakers bureau and
charge millions of dollars for her speeches. It is a mistake for her to
not reveal the text of those speeches. The criticisms of the
Clinton foundation, some of those, I was an investigative reporter for
decades covering money and politics, and some of those concerns concern
me to, but on balance she has a very strong record and I don't think
she's a dishonest and trustworthy or as Donald Trump would say, that she
is crooked. I think she has shown poor judgment. Thanks for joining
us. With less than an hour to go, until voters cannot register for the
referendum any more, we understand the voter registration website has
crashed. A busy night for their computer? We heard that people were
registering to vote in their hundreds of thousands in recent days
and we have been talking to Martin Lewis who runs the money-saving
expert website and he says careful language, the site is crashing in
parts. He says you can get onto the first page, but when you try to
input your information you can't get there and that element appears to be
crashing for some users. If you look at the Cabinet Office website at the
moment, it says as we speak 29,782 people are actually trying to input
their data. How'd you know that? This is live service usage. Our
colleague spotted that at 1015 tonight 50,000 people were trying at
the same time and I think we will hear from Martin Lewis, he says that
is a lot of people. Martin joins us over the internet from money-saving
website. Have you had complaints about this? Yes. Someone tweeted to
say the website was not working very well and they could not get through
and I'd waited out, is anyone else having problems -- I tweeted out. I
looked at the voter registration page, it maxes out at 50,000 people,
that is not a lot of traffic in terms of just viewing a website, but
this is like a transactional website, you have got to put data in
and out that number of consecutive uses at one time being processed,
that is a huge demand on the service and I'm not surprised has crashed.
You don't set up a website for such enormous numbers. The normal traffic
is trivial. This is huge. The real question is, in my suspicion, I
study web traffic, it is like a 200 camel, you get peeks at lunchtime
and in the evening. -- two hunt camel. At 1115 it drops onto 1130,
and I think from 1130 people will find it much easier. If you have the
time, keep trying. There is a democratic question, what about the
people trying between ten and 11, who have got to go to bed because
they have got to get up early, and of course they should have done it
earlier, but they haven't. And we say the voter registration is open
until midnight, but it hasn't been for them. You were to jest they keep
it open for another half an hour? -- you would suggest. They can't take
it into tomorrow. But what about the early hours of the morning? They
could, but I don't see... I don't know the logistics, but I think to
be fair, you want to communicate that this has gone down and keep it
open for at least a morning. When we have deals on the website where
something like this happens can we try to arrange for an extra day or
an extra few hours, because that seems fair. If you drive a half an
hour, they had gone away, and they might have gone to bed right now,
and if they can't register for this, the most important decision in their
lifetimes, then I think they need to be given the opportunity to do so.
You have spoken to the Cabinet Office? We are waiting to hear back
from them, they sing to have a good idea that things are not perhaps
going brilliantly -- they seem. There is a law that it has to be why
midnight? The timetable is set in law and I think it would be very
difficult for them to have any discretion over this. Nick, thanks
for joining us. That is it for tonight. You have 50 minutes to
register in the referendum, but don't bother!
But we leave you with the observation that senior members
of the Conservative party on both sides of the Brexit debate seem
to have all been afflicted with the same strange disorder.
Whenever they appear in public, they mysteriously strike a pose
in tribute to a certain 1950's film star.
It's almost like they're doing it on purpose.
# Take me away # John Wayne
# He stands so high #
Some of the thunderstorms will continue overnight, but most will
In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, with Evan Davis. Cameron v Farage - post-match analysis. Mike Ashley v Parliament. Does Hillary have a women problem? And Obama's photographer on two million snaps in eight years.