08/06/2016 Newsnight


08/06/2016

What do we know about how the country will vote? What went on at BHS? The human trafficker who may be falsely accused. With Emily Maitlis.


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Transcript


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Tonight - as the voter registration deadline is extended, we ask

:00:07.:00:10.

what we know about the demographics of how the country will vote.

:00:11.:00:15.

We speak to the polling expert prepared to put himself on the line

:00:16.:00:19.

and call it with two weeks to go - and to Labour's Harriet Harman.

:00:20.:00:23.

And we're in Cardiff conducting our own extremely

:00:24.:00:25.

Well, I'm just wondering whether I could offer

:00:26.:00:29.

I've not voted in bureaucrats in Brussels.

:00:30.:00:39.

He basically said, "It's my business, I can do what I want."

:00:40.:00:50.

I'm going to come down there and kill you.

:00:51.:00:58.

The commons select committee hears allegations of death threats

:00:59.:01:00.

and serial lying from the men who've been at the top of BHS.

:01:01.:01:03.

We talk to the pensions minister Ros Altman.

:01:04.:01:05.

Does she understand what went wrong?

:01:06.:01:06.

An Eritraen man is extradited to Italy on allegations

:01:07.:01:09.

It's the first arrest of its kind in the migration crisis,

:01:10.:01:15.

but tonight suggestions surface they may have the wrong man.

:01:16.:01:18.

Everybody is saying this is my friend, my childhood friend.

:01:19.:01:21.

He's just a refugee from a camp in Sudan in 2015.

:01:22.:01:24.

Around this time last night - just an hour before the deadline -

:01:25.:01:41.

the crashing of the website for voter registration sent those

:01:42.:01:43.

wishing to sign up for the EU referendum poll into something

:01:44.:01:46.

Popular wisdom believes late registration favours the Remain camp

:01:47.:01:53.

- with those for Brexit long energised and already signed up.

:01:54.:01:57.

Impossible to prove of course - before the 23rd of June -

:01:58.:02:00.

but when the deadline was extended until tomorrow night,

:02:01.:02:03.

it led to voices from the Leave camp warning it was on the 'cusp

:02:04.:02:06.

This referendum is a moment when every

:02:07.:02:15.

the safe seats of a general election do not exist -

:02:16.:02:18.

and tonight, we're exploring what that means for the campaigns.

:02:19.:02:21.

First to our Political Editor, Nick Watt.

:02:22.:02:29.

Egg dramatic developments since the website crashed last night and we

:02:30.:02:34.

reported it on Newsnight. The government realised they had to grab

:02:35.:02:39.

hold of this one quickly, so we will see the introduction in Parliament

:02:40.:02:43.

of emergency secondary legislation, allowing for what you were talking

:02:44.:02:46.

about, the extension of the deadline to tomorrow night. The Leave

:02:47.:02:52.

campaign were initially suspicious, thinking it might be a ruse by the

:02:53.:02:56.

government to increase the size of the electorate to the advantage of

:02:57.:03:00.

the Remain campaign. The official vote Leave campaign had been

:03:01.:03:07.

operating on the basis of a low turnout. Aware of the danger of

:03:08.:03:15.

appearing like conspiracy theorists, they have come out and say they

:03:16.:03:19.

wholly were open this. And they have made a virtue of it saying, if you

:03:20.:03:25.

want to get turkey out the European Union, even more people can vote

:03:26.:03:29.

leave. We have a defection, we haven't had a defection in politics

:03:30.:03:34.

for some time. Doctor Sara Woollaston, the independent minded

:03:35.:03:38.

conservative MPs Totnes has announced that she is moving from

:03:39.:03:46.

vote Leave to Remain. She is unamused by the vote Leave campaign

:03:47.:03:53.

that Britain spends ?350 million a week to the European Union, the net

:03:54.:03:56.

figure is a third of that. The second reason is she says there

:03:57.:04:02.

would be a penalty on the NHS if we left because it would hit the

:04:03.:04:06.

economy and of course she is a GP. And looking back at this extension

:04:07.:04:10.

to the deadline, we don't know, but is there a sense that this would

:04:11.:04:14.

genuinely favour one side over another? What is your gut feeling?

:04:15.:04:20.

The government says it is acting entirely selflessly, and doing this

:04:21.:04:23.

to promote democracy, transparency and openness, but there is no doubt

:04:24.:04:28.

the smiles were on the Remain ministers today, because as you say

:04:29.:04:31.

they believe that if you get a higher turnout, then you are more

:04:32.:04:36.

likely to have voters who don't wake up every day thinking about the EU,

:04:37.:04:40.

they think of bread and butter, therefore they hope they are more

:04:41.:04:45.

likely to vote for Remain. It is interesting Remain have been

:04:46.:04:49.

nervous, this is why I am spending time in the north-west of England

:04:50.:04:53.

because there is a fear that in some of those natural Labour heartlands

:04:54.:04:57.

whilst we are focusing on the blue on blue showing within the

:04:58.:05:01.

Conservative Party, we are perhaps missing out on a more dangerous

:05:02.:05:06.

story for the Remain site, the inability of the Labour Party, the

:05:07.:05:09.

bread elite to get out the red grassroots. Thank you.

:05:10.:05:13.

We will hear from a senior Labour politician in a moment.

:05:14.:05:19.

But first let's get into the question of what the campaigns

:05:20.:05:23.

do know about who to target with our Policy Editor Chris Cook.

:05:24.:05:29.

Lots of elements of this campaign are ageless. Doorknocking,

:05:30.:05:36.

gladhanding, battle buses. But a referendum is not a general

:05:37.:05:40.

election. On June the 23rd, the whole nation will be one

:05:41.:05:44.

constituency. So how are the two campaigns choosing where to fight? I

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think this referendum has been more about globalisation than persuasion.

:05:54.:05:56.

Both campaigns have been focusing heavily on their core areas. This

:05:57.:06:01.

map shows the distribution of marginal seats that were really

:06:02.:06:06.

fought over at the 2015 general election. Scotland has loads of

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marginal seats. If you look down the east coast of England there are not

:06:11.:06:14.

many. In London there are a few here and there. The referendum is going

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to be very different. Each side will be going to areas where they think

:06:21.:06:22.

they are strongest and trying to get out the vote in this biggest

:06:23.:06:27.

numbers. So where are those numbers? Starting with the Leave campaign,

:06:28.:06:34.

most Eurosceptic areas according to one poll. The East of England, the

:06:35.:06:38.

area so neglected at the last election, is essential to the

:06:39.:06:46.

referendum. The Remain, London and Scotland in particular are

:06:47.:06:48.

absolutely critical if they are going to win. There is a literature

:06:49.:06:54.

on getting out the vote that was effectively used by President Obama

:06:55.:06:58.

and his teenager in the election which basically suggests that the

:06:59.:07:01.

tighter your operation is, the more you contact voters on the day, you

:07:02.:07:06.

can give yourself another one, two, three points by pushing voters out

:07:07.:07:11.

of their armchairs into the polling stations. This is rather tough for

:07:12.:07:15.

the main parties who are fighting in a lot of areas they have neglected

:07:16.:07:20.

for a long time. This isn't like a general election where the focus is

:07:21.:07:25.

on a handful of marginal seats. In lots of places, areas that aren't

:07:26.:07:28.

used to full pelt campaigning at a general election have got huge areas

:07:29.:07:34.

of activities going on. In some of our best areas, every household in

:07:35.:07:40.

that parliamentary constituency has been visited more than once. That

:07:41.:07:45.

probably didn't happen in a general election. You could be forgiven for

:07:46.:07:48.

finding it hard to follow this campaign. It does not help at the

:07:49.:07:53.

polls are not trusted. Academics were wrong last year, most of the

:07:54.:07:57.

forecasts were wrong ahead of the general election. The polls have not

:07:58.:08:01.

convinced most people that they have got this one nailed down. There are

:08:02.:08:06.

significant variations between phone polls and online polls, and we all

:08:07.:08:11.

mode the story of the expert who didn't see Jeremy Corbyn coming.

:08:12.:08:16.

Before that didn't see a Conservative majority government

:08:17.:08:20.

coming. And then possibly didn't see President Trump coming. So a lot of

:08:21.:08:25.

people got a lot of things wrong. Elections are getting more complex

:08:26.:08:29.

to follow anyway as campaigns get ever less national. Campaigners can

:08:30.:08:33.

now quietly tailor ads to recipients online and in the posts with greater

:08:34.:08:38.

sophistication. And it's seriously tough to get any sense of a campaign

:08:39.:08:41.

where you don't even know what arguments are being put to your

:08:42.:08:48.

neighbours. Chris Kirk, there. In the moment we will speak to Labour's

:08:49.:08:50.

former deputy leader Harriet Harman. First, Lord Hayward,

:08:51.:08:55.

a Tory psephologist who was on John Major's team

:08:56.:08:56.

in the 1992 election and predicted Tell us what you feel will happen

:08:57.:09:04.

this time round? As far as I'm concerned the polls are

:09:05.:09:07.

overestimated how close it will be. As far as I can see there are more

:09:08.:09:11.

people deviating towards Leave. If you take any particular demographic,

:09:12.:09:17.

let's say bankers, who should be overwhelmingly in favour, my

:09:18.:09:21.

conversations and say actually the banking industry, Surrey, which will

:09:22.:09:26.

should be rock-solid Remain, they are not as solid as people think.

:09:27.:09:32.

Then you've got Labour areas, they are not as solid as people would

:09:33.:09:38.

expect. But these are just conversations, and you are at odds

:09:39.:09:41.

with a lot of other pollsters. And I've been at odds on previous

:09:42.:09:45.

occasions. I started with the polls and what they are predicting. And

:09:46.:09:50.

then gone out, discussed it with other people, listened over months

:09:51.:09:54.

to what people were saying and said, how often am I speaking to somebody

:09:55.:09:58.

who is actually deviating from what should be the polling Norm? Do you

:09:59.:10:06.

see yourself as a Leave supporter? I am a Remain supporter. So in saying

:10:07.:10:10.

Leave are doing better than the polls suggest I am arguing against

:10:11.:10:15.

my own position. So where are the gaps? Who isn't showing up? You've

:10:16.:10:20.

talked about the banking community. I think it is pretty general. There

:10:21.:10:24.

are problems you are going to go on to talk about, the Labour

:10:25.:10:27.

supporters, the professional community in general. And I think

:10:28.:10:31.

the campaign has been male dominated. There's been very poor

:10:32.:10:37.

messaging, we would expect women to be much more solidly Remain because

:10:38.:10:44.

they genuinely generally vote according to pocketbook issues. Your

:10:45.:10:50.

assumption is a male dominated campaign tells what, more women to

:10:51.:10:55.

go with the male voices? And saying there is no messaging being received

:10:56.:10:59.

by large parts of the community. Whether it is the standard

:11:00.:11:02.

traditional Labour voter or the female voter, the professional

:11:03.:11:05.

photo, they are not receiving the message on economic issues. You will

:11:06.:11:12.

forgive our viewers if there is a lot of scepticism about any pollster

:11:13.:11:14.

at this point in proceedings telling them what will happen. I have a

:11:15.:11:19.

history of telling pollsters they are wrong and on this occasion I

:11:20.:11:24.

think they are wrong. The tendency is more towards Leave at the moment.

:11:25.:11:29.

It can be turned around for Remain. If the turnout is high and based on

:11:30.:11:33.

different messaging from where we are at the moment, the result may be

:11:34.:11:38.

different. One has to remember that within the next few days 20% of the

:11:39.:11:43.

population will have already voted. Could be as high as 18%. Harriet

:11:44.:11:51.

Harman, do you accept that the traditional Labour voter does not

:11:52.:12:02.

look like a Remainer or a Leaver? We have a unified position within the

:12:03.:12:05.

Labour Party. For people who vote Labour and support baby and share

:12:06.:12:12.

the principles, it is not much help to them to see Michael Gove slugging

:12:13.:12:15.

it out with David Cameron, because actually they are not interested.

:12:16.:12:20.

And their point of view is not what motivates them. And I think the

:12:21.:12:25.

problem has been that there are Labour arguments for staying in that

:12:26.:12:30.

our voters haven't been able to hear us putting across. Your voters, 45%

:12:31.:12:35.

of Labour voters said in a poll at the end of last month they were not

:12:36.:12:43.

sure of your party's position. That's not surprising bearing in

:12:44.:12:46.

mind the airwaves have been absolutely dominated by the argument

:12:47.:12:53.

within the Tory party. You think SNP supporters, Lib Dem supporters or

:12:54.:12:57.

green supporters would say that? Presumably you would know your

:12:58.:13:00.

party's position if you were an actual supporter or voter? If you

:13:01.:13:05.

look at Loughborough University research, it shows not only is it am

:13:06.:13:10.

elated by men but it is dominated by Tory men, and that is the fact of

:13:11.:13:15.

the debate so far. Therefore what we need is more ability for women to

:13:16.:13:18.

hear specific arguments that we certainly want to put forward about

:13:19.:13:23.

why it is important to stay in. And for people to hear Labour arguments

:13:24.:13:28.

because we have different arguments. For example on the health service,

:13:29.:13:32.

we think there are problems with the health service. You can't just say

:13:33.:13:35.

the Tories are too loud. People will turn round and say Labour has been

:13:36.:13:41.

nonexistent. We are saying the huge volcanic bust up in the Tory party

:13:42.:13:45.

is, not surprisingly, grabbing media attention. But if we want balance in

:13:46.:13:50.

this debate in order to help people make up their mind so that they make

:13:51.:13:53.

the sort of decision that they really want to make, the balance

:13:54.:13:58.

needs to not just be between Leave and Remain, it leads to also be

:13:59.:14:03.

between men and women and also between Labour and Tory. Our

:14:04.:14:07.

supporters are entitled to hear why we as Labour people are urging them

:14:08.:14:11.

to vote in. So for example on the health service point, Leave are

:14:12.:14:15.

saying you've got to leave if you care about the health service. We

:14:16.:14:21.

are saying actually we think the government are doing things

:14:22.:14:24.

completely wrong, so we don't agree with David Cameron on what he is

:14:25.:14:28.

doing the health service, but we say blame the government, not the EU.

:14:29.:14:33.

That point could have been made very clearly by Jeremy Corbyn if he

:14:34.:14:38.

wanted to share a Platt with David Cameron. We have been making these

:14:39.:14:43.

points, but it is difficult to get them through. When I was acting

:14:44.:14:49.

leader, I set up the Labour in campaign as a separate campaign,

:14:50.:14:53.

because I felt we needed to get our message across separately. Was it a

:14:54.:14:59.

missed opportunity? For Jeremy Corbyn to sound alongside David

:15:00.:15:05.

Cameron and say, we are sharing a platform because it is bigger than

:15:06.:15:11.

party politics. As Leader of the Labour Party, he wants to put

:15:12.:15:14.

forward Labour's arguments. I have appeared at some things with David

:15:15.:15:19.

Cameron, not because I agree with him, but because I want people to

:15:20.:15:24.

see that Labour is four in. It is important that we have separate

:15:25.:15:28.

arguments, because we have our own points of view. For example, at

:15:29.:15:33.

work, we think that the EU guaranteeing maternity pay and

:15:34.:15:36.

holiday leave, it is important that the EU does that, because we do not

:15:37.:15:42.

trust future Tory governments to not decide to repeal all of those. We

:15:43.:15:49.

have just seen Nick, who is in Salford and other areas, safe Labour

:15:50.:15:54.

seats for ages. You think these places have been ignored, or have

:15:55.:15:59.

been left off the chart? If nearly half your voters in a poll just two

:16:00.:16:05.

weeks ago don't know your party's position, that is catastrophic. It

:16:06.:16:10.

is for us to do make sure they know what our position is and why, and

:16:11.:16:16.

that they haven't been ignored. This is a different proposition. Normally

:16:17.:16:21.

it is vote for this person in this party in this area. But we've got

:16:22.:16:25.

Labour values and principles about why we want to stay in, and we need

:16:26.:16:30.

to get that across to our voters, and it is to all of us in the Labour

:16:31.:16:35.

Party to get that idea across. Thank you for coming in.

:16:36.:16:38.

Well, we know there's a divide between young and old when it comes

:16:39.:16:41.

to the suggested voting patterns of the EU.

:16:42.:16:43.

Katie Razzall took the referendum road to South Wales this week -

:16:44.:16:47.

to look at the generational divide that appears to be emergeng there.

:16:48.:16:52.

Pettigrew Bakeries in Cardiff caters to all tastes.

:16:53.:16:54.

Mixing the traditional with the modern, there's so much

:16:55.:16:56.

But when it comes to the referendum, the choice is down to in or out.

:16:57.:17:03.

So, for Newsnight's visit, we requested a twist on some

:17:04.:17:05.

of the bakery's most popular products.

:17:06.:17:12.

I'm just wondering whether I could offer

:17:13.:17:17.

Well, well, I feel democracy, really.

:17:18.:17:27.

I've not voted in bureaucrats in Brussels who I don't even know.

:17:28.:17:29.

One reason for the generational divide in this referendum may be

:17:30.:17:32.

that many young voters, like this 26-year-old artisan baker,

:17:33.:17:36.

see their identity as bound up with Europe.

:17:37.:17:39.

I've always classed myself as European, so it would be nice

:17:40.:17:42.

to still go to France and think that we are one

:17:43.:17:45.

I can't work out which one of them is lying.

:17:46.:18:01.

I can't work out which one of them's planned for the future.

:18:02.:18:03.

Whether it's in the Welsh valleys or further afield,

:18:04.:18:14.

received wisdom in this referendum is that the young are in favour

:18:15.:18:17.

In the Swansea Valley, we gathered three generations

:18:18.:18:32.

of the same family, who appeared to some up those divisions.

:18:33.:18:37.

I'm going to vote to stay in, because I see myself having

:18:38.:18:40.

a better future in the EU, with the jobs.

:18:41.:18:43.

I've never had any doubt at all.

:18:44.:18:49.

I didn't want to go in in the first place.

:18:50.:18:53.

I know that the Remain campaign had a campaign during this referendum

:18:54.:18:56.

which was "Persuade your granny onto your side".

:18:57.:18:59.

I love my youngest granddaughter very much,

:19:00.:19:04.

I've had no doubt right from the start.

:19:05.:19:09.

We are being taken over, and we are being told what to do

:19:10.:19:17.

I see myself having a better future in Europe, like if you look

:19:18.:19:25.

at things like workers' rights, immigration and free movement

:19:26.:19:30.

as well, because you look at the way things are now,

:19:31.:19:33.

it might be that I have to move into Europe to work myself one day,

:19:34.:19:37.

and it's going to be a pain if I'll have to apply for a visa with every

:19:38.:19:41.

So I think, for me and my future, it's better to stay in.

:19:42.:19:45.

And it's my generation that has to deal with the fallout if we go.

:19:46.:19:48.

I think of you all the time, Charlotte.

:19:49.:19:52.

Do you know how you're going to vote?

:19:53.:19:54.

I'm hoping that somebody's going to say something and I'm

:19:55.:19:59.

It's me that's got to pick up the pieces eventually.

:20:00.:20:05.

No offence to you guys, but, like.

:20:06.:20:09.

It's going to be me and my children that have to clean up that

:20:10.:20:15.

Because we're not part of the EU any more, so we will just be

:20:16.:20:20.

on the island by ourselves drowning, saying, help us, and the EU's

:20:21.:20:23.

going to go, no, you're not our problem any more.

:20:24.:20:25.

Are most of your friends of your age group, do you talk about it?

:20:26.:20:28.

The ones that are voting are voting to remain.

:20:29.:20:32.

A lot of young people aren't interested in things

:20:33.:20:37.

The young could keep the UK in the EU, but only if they

:20:38.:20:47.

These Cardiff students are keenly political.

:20:48.:20:51.

Their University Challenge - to get others to follow their lead.

:20:52.:20:55.

I'm Beth Button, President of NUS Wales, and I'm going to be voting

:20:56.:20:58.

I am a second year philosophy and politics student,

:20:59.:21:03.

I'm a third year history student, and I'll be voting to remain.

:21:04.:21:10.

I'm studying Spanish and Italian, and I'm going to vote Leave.

:21:11.:21:14.

I'm a fourth year law student at Cardiff University,

:21:15.:21:18.

and I'll be voting to leave the European Union.

:21:19.:21:22.

I have a very positive case for staying in the EU.

:21:23.:21:25.

I think, for young people particularly, there's jobs out

:21:26.:21:27.

there, there's opportunities for travel, education

:21:28.:21:29.

We have a lot of power because we are part of the EU.

:21:30.:21:35.

If were not part of the EU any more, there's no guarantee that we will

:21:36.:21:39.

The referendum isn't about putting rockets on Dover and propelling us

:21:40.:21:43.

We are always going to be part of Europe.

:21:44.:21:46.

And of course, we're going to be stronger in Europe.

:21:47.:21:48.

It's the European Union that makes decisions and trade deals on our

:21:49.:21:51.

There is a large democratic deficit at the moment within the EU

:21:52.:21:55.

and the European institutions, and I think if we left

:21:56.:21:57.

there would be a lot more opportunity for young people,

:21:58.:22:00.

if Britain was a more sovereign nation.

:22:01.:22:03.

I think it's really funny when you use the term,

:22:04.:22:05.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of Welsh and angry Scottish people

:22:06.:22:09.

as well who would say that the UK isn't democratic enough.

:22:10.:22:16.

This guy said to me, this older man, literally said to me,

:22:17.:22:19.

you younger generation need to just realise that

:22:20.:22:21.

you don't have the knowledge and the experience to know what's

:22:22.:22:24.

You need to let the older people make the decision for you.

:22:25.:22:28.

And that, for me, really stung, because I thought, actually,

:22:29.:22:32.

we not only have a right to vote and have a voice in this referendum,

:22:33.:22:35.

Back in the Swansea Valley, it's too late to change

:22:36.:22:44.

But would Charlotte and her Remain - supporting husband have more

:22:45.:22:52.

luck in their local, a traditional mining pub,

:22:53.:22:54.

where many, but not all, disagree with them?

:22:55.:22:57.

HE SPEAKS WELSH. Does that mean leave or remain?

:22:58.:23:05.

I think Cameron, when he did his so-called deal with the EU,

:23:06.:23:12.

gained nothing whatsoever, and if we vote to remain now,

:23:13.:23:16.

When we ruled ourselves, we were all using outside toilets.

:23:17.:23:24.

Now, it's so bloody good, everyone wants to come here.

:23:25.:23:32.

Could Yarrick and Charlotte persuade the older punters?

:23:33.:23:45.

As for the people that are coming in, we simply can't afford

:23:46.:23:57.

But is it not true that the ones that come here to work actually

:23:58.:24:04.

contribute more into the system

:24:05.:24:06.

Why do you think it is that your views don't chime

:24:07.:24:10.

I think it's because I care about different things

:24:11.:24:15.

They are focusing on immigration, you know, politics, that sort

:24:16.:24:19.

of thing, our own sovereignty and so on.

:24:20.:24:21.

I care about our scientific institutions, farming

:24:22.:24:23.

There aren't enough pints that I could buy them!

:24:24.:24:34.

Their minds are made up.

:24:35.:24:35.

So, you know, I think it's just an age thing.

:24:36.:24:40.

They come from a small, Welsh mining village,

:24:41.:24:44.

They are not ready to change their minds, which is fine.

:24:45.:24:48.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

:24:49.:24:50.

Families and the generations disagreeing on the right

:24:51.:24:54.

This referendum has got them talking.

:24:55.:25:03.

Ocassionally the serene quiet of a select committee hearing gets

:25:04.:25:05.

Today - as the BHS family saga unravelled before MPs -

:25:06.:25:10.

BHS chief executive Darren Topp and his financial lieutenant

:25:11.:25:15.

Michael Hitchcock called Dominic Chappell- the man

:25:16.:25:18.

who bought BHS for a pound - a "Premier League liar"

:25:19.:25:21.

Topp claimed Chappell threatened to kill him when he'd

:25:22.:25:28.

Mr Chappell denied this - and the claim he owned a gun -

:25:29.:25:33.

but - pantomime aside - what did we learn today

:25:34.:25:35.

Here's our Business Editor, Helen Thomas.

:25:36.:25:44.

In life, BHS's understated styles captured the British

:25:45.:25:47.

Instead, a tawdry and increasingly lurid slanging match.

:25:48.:25:55.

At issue: who is to blame for the failure of a story high

:25:56.:26:00.

street name and the loss of 11,000 jobs.

:26:01.:26:04.

Lawyers, accountants, advisers, trustees and regulators.

:26:05.:26:08.

They've all been questioned on what went wrong.

:26:09.:26:12.

Today was the latest stage of the postmortem.

:26:13.:26:15.

Dominic Chappell, the man who bought BHS from billionaire retailer

:26:16.:26:19.

Sir Philip Green for just ?1. It collapsed barely a year later.

:26:20.:26:27.

MPs were presented with two competing visions of

:26:28.:26:28.

In one version of reality he was a total liability.

:26:29.:26:33.

A compulsive liar who didn't understand BHS, and who shouldn't

:26:34.:26:36.

In the other version, his own, he was a hard-working businessman

:26:37.:26:44.

whose attempts to turn round BHS were blocked.

:26:45.:26:46.

Both versions raised questions for Sir Philip Green.

:26:47.:26:50.

He'll have his turn in Westminster next week.

:26:51.:26:53.

A trio of BHS managers laid out the case against Mr Chappell.

:26:54.:26:58.

And if it doesn't smell right invariably it is not right.

:26:59.:27:07.

Over ?1.5 million Dominic Chappell took out of the company.

:27:08.:27:13.

If I take out all the expletives he basically said, "Do not

:27:14.:27:22.

"I've had enough of you telling me what to do over

:27:23.:27:26.

"It's my business, I can do what I want."

:27:27.:27:30.

"And if you kick off about it I'm going to come down

:27:31.:27:33.

So why did a businessman as experienced as Philip Green sell

:27:34.:27:37.

And why did respected advisers like Grant Thornton and Olswang

:27:38.:27:44.

One explanation had been that Dominic Chappell had shown he had

:27:45.:27:49.

But it was suggested today he'd got that money from investors,

:27:50.:27:56.

not to pump into BHS but instead to higher property off

:27:57.:28:00.

What we learnt today was that the ?35 million had been earmarked

:28:01.:28:09.

to acquire another property, not part of the BHS group,

:28:10.:28:12.

but part of Sir Philip's broader empire, we understand.

:28:13.:28:17.

And that was the sole purpose of the ?35 million.

:28:18.:28:21.

So it does put the seller in an intriguing situation

:28:22.:28:24.

where they were looking for credibility on ?35 million

:28:25.:28:28.

to bolster the credibility of the buyer of BHS.

:28:29.:28:33.

But that ?35 million was actually intended to acquire a property

:28:34.:28:37.

which is not part of the BHS group, but was presumably known

:28:38.:28:40.

In Dominic Chappell's version, Sir Philip Green should

:28:41.:28:47.

Do you think he is a successful businessman?

:28:48.:28:52.

He's been very successful at raising large amounts of money out

:28:53.:28:54.

of companies by taking huge dividends out of them, yes.

:28:55.:28:57.

There were shops there that had no heating.

:28:58.:28:59.

There were shops there that had no air handling.

:29:00.:29:01.

There were shops there where the staff, bless them,

:29:02.:29:04.

who loved and adored BHS, came in at weekends to paint,

:29:05.:29:07.

to replace lights, because no one had given that company any money

:29:08.:29:11.

And another disagreement over pensions.

:29:12.:29:17.

Mr Chappell said the stand-off between Sir Philip Green

:29:18.:29:19.

and the pension regulator hurt his attempts

:29:20.:29:22.

He has spent the last however many years doing deals and it is a quite

:29:23.:29:30.

You can't simply go to the pension regulator and say,

:29:31.:29:33.

I will put ?50 million into this pension scheme,

:29:34.:29:40.

It just doesn't work like that and it shouldn't work like that.

:29:41.:29:45.

A defiant Dominic Chappell said today pushed thereby

:29:46.:29:53.

You should expect Sir Philip Green to vigorously contest much

:29:54.:29:57.

Indeed BHS's last Chief Executive Darren top told me that he disagreed

:29:58.:30:05.

with Mr Chappell's assertion that Sir Philip had tipped the business

:30:06.:30:07.

Mr Topp said that decision was taken unanimously at a BHS board

:30:08.:30:13.

Mr Topp said business had simply run out of money.

:30:14.:30:29.

Raising funds against its property had fallen short.

:30:30.:30:31.

An MP said today that they were getting closer to the truth

:30:32.:30:33.

One thing seems clear, no one looks set to emerge untainted.

:30:34.:30:38.

Simon Walker - from the Institute of Directors - joins me now.

:30:39.:30:44.

Along with Ros Altman the pensions minister. Welcome, both. When you

:30:45.:30:57.

see this kind of squalid soap opera unfolding, it must make you wince?

:30:58.:31:03.

It is completely an excusable and absolutely outrageous. What worries

:31:04.:31:05.

me is that it makes people think that's what petition business is

:31:06.:31:12.

like. And British business is about hard-working people who have often

:31:13.:31:14.

mortgaged their houses in order to get companies going. This is as far

:31:15.:31:19.

from the world of normal businesses in this country as can be. So what

:31:20.:31:23.

went wrong? Where did the regulations fail here? Everything

:31:24.:31:28.

failed at every stage. I don't think Sir Philip was the only villain but

:31:29.:31:34.

as someone said, selling that company to a twice bankrupt racing

:31:35.:31:39.

driver with no retail experience was the equivalent of giving your keys

:31:40.:31:44.

to your car to a five-year-old and then saying, you crashed it. It is

:31:45.:31:50.

completely wrong to have done that. But your report rightly asks, where

:31:51.:31:54.

were the advisers? One of the most important law firms in the City of

:31:55.:32:00.

London was standing by them. Rand Thornton, a well-known accountancy

:32:01.:32:04.

deal was there. Lord Grabban QC is the chairman of Arcadia and seems to

:32:05.:32:08.

have been extremely relaxed about the sale of BHS. He wasn't even on

:32:09.:32:12.

the subcommittee, he learned about it five days later. The pension

:32:13.:32:19.

regulator said she learned about it in the newspaper sometime later.

:32:20.:32:22.

Everything went wrong. It is a scar on the face of British business, its

:32:23.:32:28.

damages everyone. If you believe, as I do, that capitalism is worthwhile

:32:29.:32:32.

and works in the interest of ordinary people, you have a

:32:33.:32:35.

particular responsibility to say how appalling this is. Dominic Chappell

:32:36.:32:39.

knew something was going wrong, and he brought the government and you

:32:40.:32:42.

personally into that meeting by saying he asked to meet you? He did

:32:43.:32:46.

ask to meet me and I did not think it was appropriate for him to try to

:32:47.:32:50.

meet the Minister, to go round the back door and bypass the pensions

:32:51.:32:55.

regulator. Why would it be the back door, if he was worried about the

:32:56.:32:58.

way the business was being handled, he could see things were not right,

:32:59.:33:03.

is that not responsible thing to do, contact the pensions minister? Not

:33:04.:33:07.

at all. The appropriate thing to do is go the pensions regulator and

:33:08.:33:12.

work out any issues that you have if you've got a problem with your

:33:13.:33:18.

pension scheme. Don't try and come to the Minister. Do you think the

:33:19.:33:22.

pensions regulator is the right body to deal with these issues after

:33:23.:33:25.

everything we have heard over the past few weeks? I do actually, and I

:33:26.:33:30.

would like to reassure the members of the BHS pension scheme and the

:33:31.:33:34.

workers who worked so royally, that their pensions are protected by the

:33:35.:33:41.

pension protection fund. Why did the pensions regulator say that they'd

:33:42.:33:45.

heard it through a newspaper report when we know that actually Philip

:33:46.:33:49.

Green had got in touch with them before he'd corrected the head of

:33:50.:33:52.

the pensions regulator and why, for example, was Philip Green not

:33:53.:33:56.

allowed to put money into the pension fund to try to increase the

:33:57.:34:00.

amount that was there? Again I think it is important for business owners

:34:01.:34:05.

to understand that a pension fund and its liabilities are real

:34:06.:34:08.

liabilities, and they have lives attached. And there are appropriate

:34:09.:34:12.

ways to deal with the pension scheme. Because what they should be

:34:13.:34:17.

doing is going to the pensions regulator and saying, if you have a

:34:18.:34:21.

big deficit, how am I going to be able to sort this out? How will I be

:34:22.:34:26.

able to look after my pension, as there are established processes that

:34:27.:34:29.

the pensions regulator will sit down with any business and say, if you

:34:30.:34:33.

want to deal with your pension fund and you have a problem, let's sit

:34:34.:34:37.

round the table and talk about it. It was said that it was not taken

:34:38.:34:41.

seriously by the pensions regulator when they offered to go in and sort

:34:42.:34:46.

it out. That is not the case as far as I am aware. And the impression

:34:47.:34:50.

here has been that the business doesn't understand the

:34:51.:34:54.

responsibility that they actually have under pensions law for the

:34:55.:34:58.

pension scheme, and the pension promises they have made to their

:34:59.:35:01.

members. The business should be going to the pensions regulator. The

:35:02.:35:06.

pensions regulator will ask for lots of information. If the business does

:35:07.:35:10.

not supply that information, the regulator cannot do anything. How do

:35:11.:35:15.

you see Philip Green at the end of all of this? He was appointed a tsar

:35:16.:35:29.

at the end of 2010. Efficiency tsar. We will have to wait for these

:35:30.:35:35.

investigations to run. You think he will be in the clear? I cannot

:35:36.:35:40.

prejudge anything. But I want to reassure people that we have a

:35:41.:35:46.

pension protection fund. EU law requires us to protect pensions,

:35:47.:35:49.

whereas previously British law did not. HBOS took eight years and have

:35:50.:35:55.

not reported fully on what led to the fall of that bank. We cannot

:35:56.:36:02.

wait until 2025 to work out where the regulators, lawyers, accountants

:36:03.:36:05.

let us down. So what needs to happen? We need the select committee

:36:06.:36:10.

to give some findings and come to the truth, otherwise it will damage

:36:11.:36:13.

the reputation of business as a whole, and we need to know the

:36:14.:36:18.

answers quickly. The regulators will report back by the end of the year.

:36:19.:36:21.

An Eritrean man suspected of running a huge human trafficking network

:36:22.:36:24.

that sent thousands of migrants to Europe has been extradited

:36:25.:36:26.

from Sudan to Italy - in the first operation of its kind

:36:27.:36:29.

to bring an African people smuggler to justice for his role

:36:30.:36:32.

However tonight, suggestions are starting to emerge

:36:33.:36:37.

that the joint operation - which was based on intercepting

:36:38.:36:40.

telephone calls - may actually have got the wrong man.

:36:41.:36:42.

This is meant to be Mered Medhanie as he arrives in Italy to face

:36:43.:36:48.

An alleged top people smuggler who styled

:36:49.:36:51.

He was arrested in Khartoum in a joint

:36:52.:36:56.

operation by British, Italian and Sudanese authorities

:36:57.:36:57.

Medhanie and his gang are a significant organised

:36:58.:37:04.

They have been involved with the movement of thousands of

:37:05.:37:11.

So we would consider this to be a major

:37:12.:37:15.

disruption of an organised crime group.

:37:16.:37:19.

But tonight there are growing reports that they picked up the

:37:20.:37:22.

wrong man and instead of notorious people trafficker, Mered Medhanie,

:37:23.:37:27.

they have arrested an ordinary Eritreans refugee who happens to

:37:28.:37:29.

That's according to one prominent Eritrean

:37:30.:37:37.

rights activist who was actually interviewed the real Mered Medhanie

:37:38.:37:40.

I don't believe they have the right person.

:37:41.:37:43.

The person that they have is a 28-year-old refugee

:37:44.:37:45.

who happens to have the same first name as him.

:37:46.:37:49.

I have spoken to his sister, spoken to his friends, I

:37:50.:37:55.

have received over 400 testimonies from people who know the person

:37:56.:37:58.

Everybody is saying this is my friend, my childhood friend.

:37:59.:38:01.

He is just a refugee in a camp in Sudan in 2015.

:38:02.:38:05.

We spoke to two friends of another Medhanie,

:38:06.:38:08.

Italian authorities, though, who earlier in the day

:38:09.:38:43.

gave a press conference, still say they have the right

:38:44.:38:46.

person, and the National Crime Agency here has said it's too early

:38:47.:38:49.

So what do we know about the man who the police were actually after?

:38:50.:38:57.

We've been told the real Medhanie was living in Khartoum,

:38:58.:39:01.

but he had previously reportedly been living in Tripoli,

:39:02.:39:03.

The smuggling route he allegedly operated goes from Eritrea,

:39:04.:39:10.

through Ethiopia and Sudan to Libya, where packed boats head off

:39:11.:39:13.

to the Italian islands of Lampedusa and Sicily.

:39:14.:39:17.

In one telephone conversation intercepted by authorities,

:39:18.:39:20.

Medhanie boasts that in the first half of 2014:

:39:21.:39:26.

Medhanie had teams working in Italy too,

:39:27.:39:35.

He reportedly charged up to 5000 euros for the whole journey.

:39:36.:39:44.

One of the smuggling operations British authorities linked

:39:45.:39:47.

to Medhanie's group ended in disaster three years ago.

:39:48.:39:51.

Over 300 people drowned off the coast of Lampedusa.

:39:52.:39:57.

But the search to bring those responsible for the deaths,

:39:58.:40:08.

And for many others might not be over yet.

:40:09.:40:11.

We leave you this scene filmed during the flash floods

:40:12.:40:14.

in Woodcote Road, Wallington in South East London,

:40:15.:40:16.

following the recent spell of hot weather.

:40:17.:40:18.

Today's storms have faded away now, a dry start for tomorrow. Early mist

:40:19.:40:48.

and fog in the West, low cloud in the East burning off more slowly.

:40:49.:40:54.

Sunny spells widely by the afternoon, warm day

:40:55.:40:55.

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