05/07/2016 Newsnight


Who can stop Theresa May? Brexit hits the Universities. Chilcott Report. New Labour Party members speak up. With Evan Davis.

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There were five candidates this morning - one is Theresa May,


I'll be lending my whole hearted support to Theresa May,


who is overwhelmingly in the best position to be the next


Prime Minister and the leader of the Conservative Party.


I've decided to give my support to Theresa May.


I intend to work closely with her, to campaign for her,


and I am sure she'll be a very fine Prime Minister of this country.


There is still a battle of the Brexiteers for second place,


and a chance to appeal to Tory party members.


But is it futile, given Theresa May's lead?


Since the referendum result, of the 12 projects that we have


people working on, for submission for an end of August deadlines,


on four of those projects researchers in other European


countries have said they no longer feel the E-UK should be a partner,


because they don't have confidence in what the future is going to hold.


In a Baghdad suburb they've counted 175 dead from an ISIS car bomb.


In Westminster, they're about to publish the Chilcot report.


Will this report bring security back?


Or bring back someone who died from a car bomb?


Or a widow who lost her husband, or lost her kids?


Hello, it's too early to tell you who our new Prime Minister is,


but we did learn today that it is not going to be Liam Fox.


He was eliminated in the first round of the leadership election.


Stephen Crabb then withdrew, so it won't be him.


But both of them gave their backing to Theresa May,


who was already the runaway leader, with half of Tory MPs backing her.


But at this stage, the race for second place is still open.


The battle of the Brexiteers, to be Theresa May's rival,


is between Andrea Leadsom and Michael Gove.


It's more exciting than Wimbledon, and there's now one


round on Thursday, before it goes to an audience vote.


Our political editor Nick Watt is with me.


Talks takes through the drama? As you were saying a decisive win for


Theresa May there, there are 16 a 5 votes for -- 165 votes for her, but


led not a member of the Cabinet, the Brexiteer 66 higher than expected,


that is a serious performance, but let us not forget Michael Gove, he


got 48 vote, and that was higher than expected. The work and pension


secretary Stephen Crabb did OK, 34 votes and in final fifth place there


is Liam Fox on 16 votes and he came last, so sorry Liam, you are out of


the contest. But shortly after he was formally


eliminated Stephen Crabb as you said he was still in the contest, he


decided to go and he endorsed Theresa May, but the really


significant endorsement for Theresa May was Liam Fox, a prominent


Brexiteer and he said he would travel the country with her, which


will help her because she could be up against one of those two


Brexiteers. You look at the figures and the endorsement of MP, and I


know they don't choos choose, it has to be Theresa May? On paper Theresa


May is untouchable but she is nervous about Andrea Leadsom. I


talked to one of her supporters and this person said to me, look Andrea


Leadsom is fresh, she was in the television debate, she maybe popular


with the membership and this cabinet minister said maybe Theresa May will


do so well on Thursday, that perhaps the others will stand down, but that


is not the official Theresa May position, the official Theresa May


position is I want this contest to go the full course, I want to face


the country because I want a proper mandate. What is going to happen


now? What happens on Thursday? What will happen is Theresa May will


shore up her sup for, but there is Machiavellian thinking, perhaps


because she is so far ahead she could lend 30 votes to Michael Gove.


That would knock Andrea Leadsom out and Theresa May would be maybe not


certain about beating Andrea Leadsom, but would be very certain


about beating Michael Gove, but Theresa May, I am not in favour of


tactical voting, so that is not the official position. Let us not forget


Michael Gove, he thinks is a serious contender and he thinks Andrea


Leadsom has two weakness, one is she didn't have a great performance in


font of the 1922 Committee. And her stellar CV. Thank you.


Earlier in the day, there was a flurry of excitement,


thanks to a candid assessment of the leading candidates


from Ken Clarke, caught on a Sky microphone.


Many were wondering if it was right to air the comments,


as he was apparently unaware he was being recorded, but, well,


it just turned out to be too good for broadcasters not to run.


I think with Michael as Prime Minister, we would go


to war with at least three countries at once.


He did us all a favour by getting rid of Boris.


The idea of Boris as Prime Minister is ridiculous.


I don't think either Andrea Leadsom or Boris Johnson are actually


in favour of leaving the European Union.


Theresa May is a bloody difficult woman, but you and I worked


Well, joining me now are David Davis, the former


Shadow Home Secretary, who is supporting Theresa May,


and Tim Loughton, who is running Andrea Leadsom's campaign.


Ront of the 1922 Committee. And her stellar CV. Thank you. We will take


the microphones off later. Let us start on the issue of whether


Theresa May is unassailable. Could you imagine a Coronation in which


she is just Theresa May is too far ahead in MP votes? Absolutely not.


The MPs role is an advisory role. It is up to the membership to decide


the final candidate, who becomes leader, who then becomes Prime


Minister. The membership will feel cheated if we deny the choice and


deny them the choice of a Brexiteer and remainor, David Davis isn't


there a problem, if 200 MPs support Theresa May, and the next candidate


gets you know, vastly less, 70, I mean what happens? Tim is right.


They are having a candidate foisted on them. I can't think of a


parallel. Our rules are that the MPs put up the two candidates and the


party chooses, now the party may take into account what the MPs do,


but it is down to the party at the end of the day. If they choose to


elect somebody other than Teresa, that is their choice. David know, he


has been through it. I remember that process. You would be happy and you


would serve under Andrea Leadsom, if even if she was way behind Theresa


May in MP terms. The outcome is the outcome. We have Parliamentary


sovereignty. On this subject, picking of the party leader and in


this case the PM, it is down to the party members of the country. Are


you nervous about tactical voting on Thursday, Tim, I know a lot of and


dra's supporters seem to worry there may be some of that. This is my


fourth leadership competition I have been in, I have been in Parliament


for 19 year, in the past there have been a few hints some of her


colleagues have not backbench up front about who they are supporting.


Straight forward electorate? Wonderful colleagues may actually


not do something they have said they would do, and there is a lot of


shenanigans going on, I think the membership would feel cheated if


they didn't have Teresa and Andrea. There is a certain niceness and


neatness about having an all women the short list that is genuine,


hasn't been gerrymandered by two strong women candidate, one from


Leave, one from Remain, two who both went to state school. This is


something new for the Tory party, it would be a good process, in what


changes are coming about as well. Are you suggesting if Michael Gove


pips Andrea Leadsom to the second place post on Thursday, are you


suggesting that would probably be a result of tactical voting rather


than MPs making a straight forward choice? Well we think that Michael


got more votes than we expected him to today. We predicted for Andrea 65


votes she got 66, so we have had to shoot her Chief Whip. Those are


genuine people, who, who back Andrea, because they believe in


Andrea, the fresh approach she has got, the experience she has got


outside of Parliament. So we are going to increase the votes by


people who are coming from Liam and from Stephen Crabb, but also from


people who backed Teresa, because they gave Teresa their backing


before Andrea came into the campaign, she wasn't in the campaign


five days ago, to go from zero to 66, which is is double the


predictions this horning is no mean feat. I repeat the question, if


Michael Gove beats Andrea Leadsom on Thursday, would you be saying that


is almost certainly the result of some kind of tactical voting, rather


than honest voting? I I think there would be a steward's inquiry about


where the extra votes came from but democracy is democracy. Is is there


going to be tactical voting Of course there can be, this is a


sophisticated electorate. There is no guidance from us, think of it in


these term, let us imagine there are 35 votes in play, so, Teresa could


go to 200 vote, right, or she could give the 35 votes to somebody else,


in order to switch round, why would we do that? Firstly... Because it is


easier to beat Michael Gove as you know. I don't agree with that. But


not having, having 200 vote, which is the other alternative is a better


outcome, Teresa is the unity candidate. She has pulled together


Liam Fox and Stephen Crabb, me, not people you would necessarily expect,


and the purpose is to unify the Tory party, the country, she wants the


biggest vote. She is not going to give votes to anybody else. It is


bonkers. Out of interest, one of the things that everyone has said about


reading the view of the electorate in the referendum, is there was an


anti-establishment vote, people were looking for someone who was


different. I wonder whether either of you has a a candidate who has


that. Andrea Leadsom, a city work e I think she went to Warwick, member


of a black tie dining club. I was talking to her about this, we never


remember that, we dined at hotels in Leamington Spa, the only time I died


and my grandmother came in. I was at Warwick University, so we all have


that in common. I was I was not part of any dining club, Dan was not. We


a really mystified. Warwick is perhaps not the most blue chip. Is


it fair to say that... So what She was an investment banker, she worked


in fund management, in financial industry, in the city, in which she


was widely respected and which she run teams of 3 hundred, she was


involved in financial crisis in 2008, working alongside Eddie


George, she has run businesses in the real world for 25 years before


she came into Parliament, and starting to get into politic. The


notion the only experience you could get inside politics, she has more


outside politics than any of the candidates. She has been an MP for


six year, day David Cameron was only a member for four years she is a


highly respected minister. Your candidate has been in office for so


many years and associated with failures that were associated with


the defeat of the campaign that the referendum campaign on whose side


she was. As you said in office she was in the most difficult job in


Government, the one that kills people, in being Home Secretary,


when I was Shadow Home Secretary for five years I had four Home


Secretaries opposite me, she did the job for six years, it is a record in


modern times and she was formidable. Things like the negotiation with


Jordan over, series of things, incredibly important, that is why


she got so many votes today, because they see a track record, a tough


lady who knows what he is doing, decisive, competent capable. We have


your thoughts on the credentials of your candidates. Let us talk about


Brexit. Do you think Brexiteers can trust Theresa May?


I just think if we are to have a Prime Minister who we need to


negotiate, the most important settlement that we have ever faced


in parliament, you need to have someone who is committed to the


cause well researched and that caused and showed passion for it


during the referendum, stuck up your neck on the block as a minister for


the cause and knows how to negotiate. All those boxes are to


buy Andrea Leadsom. The issue is not whether you voted for Brexit or


whether you can deliver it. It is going to be one of the most


sophisticated negotiations we have ever seen, not just us but the


generation before us. It will require a competent and capable


person, someone who can look Angela Merkel in the eye, who carries that


gravitas but also has the intellect to do it. Today, not to pick fights,


but up until today or yesterday, Andrea Leadsom, have you lost to go


straight to Article 50 and trigger the negotiation. She is a tough nut


she has done negotiation, she has dealt with foreign business people,


dealt with foreign politicians in her role as Energy Minister and city


minister. She is a no-nonsense, fresh start in politics and that is


what we need. I'm afraid this is much bigger than that. Heads of


state, there are really big arguments to take case and you will


have to carry it off not just through the experience of one to


energy negotiations, but a huge experience and that is what Theresa


has got. She has a track record in the Home Office and when it comes to


delivering the best deal for British people coming out of Europe, Theresa


May, but Andrea will! Thank you both very much.


Before the referendum, British universities were clear


that they wanted Britain to remain in the EU.


Now, of course, they are having to assess how Brexit will affect them.


The Russell Group of top ranked research universities issued


"We are just as open and welcoming to students,


staff and ideas as we were before the referendum", they said,


putting a brave face on it, but there are deep


Our policy editor, Chris Cook, went to the university city


of Sheffield, to find out what's on higher education minds.


One vice Chancellor revealed his university is already feeling shock


waves from the referendum. Sheffield was a major shock on


referendum night. A big prosperous northern city but which voted to


leave. And the two universities


in Sheffield, like others elsewhere, are now deeply concerned


about what comes next. British universities get around 5%


of their students from the EU, around 15% of their staff,


and around ?800 million It is possible all of those


relationships and flows will continue in the future, but right


now, uncertainty is causing real problems for our higher


education institutions. One Vice Chancellor has broken


cover, exclusively for Newsnight, to reveal


a major problem. In order to secure research funds,


our researchers need to bid You bid competitively


and increasingly in an international environment, you bid


in international teams. Since the referendum result,


of the 12 projects that we have people working


on for submission for an end of August deadline, on four of those


projects researchers in other European


countries have said they no longer feel that the UK should be a partner


because they don't have confidence Three other vice


chancellors have given us similar accounts,


as academics here and abroad fear that


post Brexit Britain might be excluded from the EU run


research frameworks. One of them is the international


engagement that our leading researchers have, the other


one is mobility for younger So for our established researchers,


because they are part of international


networks at the moment, being published, but they know what


is going on on the lab bench with And they know why decisions are


being made about which particular For the younger researchers,


the key thing is the opportunity to work


in So as well as their experience


of working in another country, they build up new contacts with those


networks and those then support And we're going to


miss out on both of Norway and Switzerland


are out of the EU, but But the uncertainty


is painful, and university We get quite a lot of research


funding from the EU across a whole And we collaborate with


all the EU countries. But one example of this


is our Insignia research institute which is looking


at how to develop cures for motor And other neuro


degenerative disorders. So I think we wouldn't be able to do


that research at that level without Now you might be


expecting that, but what Stuff that both of Sheffield's


universities called EU funded research also supports local


high-tech manufacturing jobs. We work with British


companies and companies in South Yorkshire


as part of the supply chain to big


companies like Rolls-Royce, Airbus We train 250 apprentices a year,


with 195 small companies in This sort of work relies


on attracting great researchers who can help local businesses


develop their But vice chancellors already have


case studies of prospective staff deciding not


to come to Britain. And they fear losing students. I am


really comfortable here but since the last vote, all the people from


Spain do not know how it is working here, they're worried about that,


quite worried about their situation. They do not know what will happen


here to me. They do not know if people will still be nice or do not


want us here. The UK may stay half in the U science infrastructure and


take another pad, some Leave campaign is hoped up UK science


bent, but academics need to know. For them it is a particularly


chilling interregnum. As if we didn't have enough


news to worry about, brace yourselves for tomorrow,


when the Chilcot inquiry Another chance for establishment


politician to take a kicking. The report has been seven


years in the making - It's not designed to point


the finger of blame at the mistakes made, it is designed


to document the lessons But, of course, some of the lessons


we may learn are that certain Sir John has been managing


expectations of the report, The main expectation that I have,


is that it will no be possible in future to engage in a military,


or indeed a diplomatic endeavour on such a scale and of such gravity


without really careful challenge, analysis and assessment,


and collective political judgment Now, our diplomatic editor


Mark Urban will be locked in a room with a number of other journalists


to read the report at 8.00am Sir John Chilcot will talk


about his findings at 11, and after that, the journalists can


report on anything that their speed Let's start with Tony Blair. Where a


lot of interest is in this and how the report will handle him and it. I


think there will be a good deal of criticism of Tony Blair and the way


he ran this but if after the smoking gun, key memo proving he knew that


intelligence was false and lied to the people and Parliament, I do not


think that is going to be there. I think there will be criticism of the


style of government where Cabinet was not fully in the picture, a


certain naivete going into it, absence of attention to detail and


post-war planning. We may learn other things about Tony Blair as


well, perhaps that he also realised it was going horribly wrong rather


quicker than President Bush did. What about criticisms generally, how


broad will they go, don't Tony Blair? I think it is key to


understand that dozens of people will be centred explicitly or


implicitly hi-vis. Officials, intelligence people who may not have


given the right rigour, who may have allowed their work to be processed


in a way that was too political. And not sufficiently caveat it. I think


the military will be a substantial area of criticism. I think the


report will point out that they lobbied for a big role in Iraq and


then when Afghanistan was splitting up in 2005, they lobbied for a big


role there before the business was finished in Iraq. All of that


influence the level of resources and equipment that the military were


able to have. So I expect to see a good deal of criticism of the way


the campaign was conducted and the role of senior officers as well as


other officials. By the way, Mark will


share his observations on the inquiry with you tomorrow,


as soon as Sir John stops talking. That'll be about 11.30 tomorrow


morning, via Facebook Live. Go to the BBC's Facebook page,


and you'll see it there, and you can Well, tomorrow's report


will encapsulate in prose the mistakes made at the various


stages of the war, and the suffering of both the Iraqi people


and the British serviceman I am Reg Keys, I am


the father of the late Lance Corporal Tom Keys who was killed


in Iraq four days short of his 21st In the run up to the 2003 war,


we were hearing all these information about the different


types of bombs that are going to be launched on us, the different types


of technology that is going to cause damage to our country,


it was just so scary. believed my Prime Minister,


Tony Blair, that Iraq had these dreadful weapons of mass destruction


that were about to be unleashed


on the British people at any time, indeed he could deploy


in 45 minutes. At the start, when Americans came


in, But then that's totally


changed straightaway, when they saw things


were getting worse. They are not getting better,


we have American flags hanging on palaces, I had once


a Laser gun on my chest because I was standing


my balcony, someone in my house holding a gun towards me,


saying this is freedom, this is democracy.


Conditions were dire, I


remember him saying we did a biological


weapon attack drill, he


said I put the rubber suit on, this is in


stifling heat, these lads were


training, feared for their lives, remember they may well be attacked


when they were in no danger whatsoever from WMD, but as he put


the face mask on, I recall him saying the rubber round the seal


During the invasion we didn't go to school.


I don't know why they waited till the end of


They bombed electricity, they bombed telephone


lines, OK, if you won the war, why are you bombing it and letting


Tom and some of his colleagues were asked to give


out sweets to children to win them over, and there was one dreadful


incident, where two young lads, probably 12 or 13, Tom said, had


taken sweets off them, and they were grabbed


by a mob, taken off, tied to


a lamp post and burned alive, as a lesson not


to collaborate with the


There was no law, there was no order, there


The risk of death and serious injury goes along with being a serving


soldier, I signed the paperwork for Tom to join the army because he was


under 18 and I now have to come to terms with this. I was dealing with


that until I started to find out that the weapons of mass destruction


did not exist, that the war was based on a falsehood and


misrepresentation of intelligence data. And then to my horror, I found


that Tom had virtually no equipment, just 50 rounds of ammunition, no


radio. No distress flares, no smoke grenade, no hand grenades. For a


normal citizen living in Iraq at the moment, the Chilcot report will do


nothing, will this report wingback security, will it bring electricity


back will it make people feel safe? We want to know exactly why this


country went to war with Iraq on the premise of a falsehood of WMD


without a second UN resolution. The blood of those who died in Iraq


stains the halls of Westminster, it was a shambolic episode in British


politics, a disgrace and should never be allowed to happen again.


And we will devote the programme tomorrow to the Chilcot report.


The Labour Party is in the grip of a fierce


Constitutionally, the party belongs to the members,


but the MPs feel they have special rights to it as well.


And the two are in a standoff over who should be leader.


But, while I say that, it has not come to a vote -


we just assume that the members would reaffirm their support of


Especially, given a surge in new members post-referendum?


Well, soon they may be given the chance to vote on a leader,


so Lewis Goodall has been travelling the country to sound


Meetings of local constituency Labour parties in every corner of


the kingdom. There will be strong opinions.


Before the meeting starts have a chance to catch up with sop some of


the members to see if their support for the leader has soured. Soured.


It was for the people round Corbyn, from the beginning there were so


many media leaks and bits of things about him not being suitable, but in


fact how can you say he is not? His vision is excellent and so many


followed hipment Because a small my orty of the party which is a


majority of the faction of the party are against him, does not mean he


should go. Aren't they more than just a faction? No, that are a


faction of the party. They are a fact hundred of the party. And if


you want to listen to the party and you want members to be involved and


you give them the right to join the party or just pay ?3 to have say you


cannot take that away from him because you don't like the decision.


If the Labour MPs feel the Labour Party is unrepresentative o their


views or the views of their constituents they are within their


rights to refuse the Labour whip. Even for Corbyn's detractors it is


hard to oppose without an alternative. Why have we got to


second guess the Parliamentary Labour Party. There are no


candidates. There are no credible candidates coming forward. It does.


There is all this movement against the leader, but nobody is standing


up and saying I can do a better job. The PLP are acting in a sense of


frustration, they are keen to bring about change and change to help


ordinary people. Is that why they abstain on the Welfare Bill and why


the previous Shadow Chancellor said he would accept some cuts to tax


credits? The person who has been most outed is Angela Eagle. Do you


have enthusiasm for that? Not at all. I don't think the Labour Party


should return to new Labour but our style We shouldn't have a split in


the party, which led to the SDP. We haven't got an alternative candidate


out yet. Owen Smith's name is being touted. Let us wait and sigh. Would


there be more support for him? Him? There is not a vacancy. We have a


leader, and the leader has said he is staying put. The Labour Party


isn't about one man, and we need, in order to be able do that job


effectively, then Jeremy Corbyn needs the support of his MPs, and it


seems he doesn't have that. In the event of another leadership election


how many of you think Jeremy Corbyn would likely win? And in the event


of another leadership election how many of you think you would likely


vote for him yourself? Many of their comrades agree. During the meeting


three motions were put down in support of Jeremy Corbyn, all three


were overwhelmingly carried. All of the motions here were in


favour of the leader, but, maybe the people who will determine the next


leader of the Labour Party, aren't the people here at all but the


people joining the party, to vote against Jeremy Corbyn.


The rebels have to hope there are lots of people out there liker can


and her daughter aimy from Cleethorpe, they are two of the


60,000 people who have joined the party since the referendum. They


have never been a member of a party before, but are joining now to vote


for anyone but Corbyn. I have always voted, I think it is very important


to vote, but I feel that the party I normally vote for isn't there any


more, and I feel the next election, I wouldn't know who to vote for.


Just feels like momentum have the car keys and they have gone for a


joyride and they are not letting us have it back, and they would rather


driver it off a cliff than give up power, because this is their moment.


I read that so many people are joining and momentum say it is to


join to vote for Corbyn, and I know I vote, join to vote against Corbyn,


and I think he will hang on and I think it will be the end of the


party. I think it could split the party, because people like me, that


traditionally always vote Labour won't vote for Jeremy Corbyn in the


next election. Will you vote for him in the next election? No. Who would


you vote for instead? That is a tough one. I don't think, I don't


think I could vote Tory, I think it would have to be the Lib Dem,


because I use my vote, I think it is important to vote, and I feel I


don't have anyone to vote for. You have voted Labour? Always voted


Labour. But the other side are trenched too.


Patrick Smith is secretary of Hull north Labour Party and a momentum


organiser. Since the coup was launched, last week, we have seen


more than 30 members a day, joining, so we are growing rapidly, and I


would say that is thanks to Jeremy Corbyn. Do you think it is fair to


say Labour is in a state of Civil War right now? Absolutely. I mean,


how could you describe it any other way? But it's the MPs who have gone


to war with the membership, not the membership who have gone to war with


the MPs. Do you feel like you are going to bin that war? Yes. There is


a lot more of us than there is of them.


Well, if the Labour party is in a standoff, as Lewis


suggests it might be, is it perhaps time to call


For the party to split into its two component wings?


Separating is all the fashion at the moment, after all.


There were two influential political columnists today,


one in the Times and one in the Financial Times,


suggesting that this is no longer an unthinkable option.


Proponents hate to call it an SDP mark 2,


I'm joined by former Business Secretary Vince Cable,


Ayesha Hazarika, who worked for Ed Miliband and Harriet Harman,


Can I just start with you, have you had any conversations or heard any


conversations about the idea of there being some break away or a


split? I have spoken to a number of MPs and people round the Labour


Party, today, and certainly there is lots of talk about it, it is in the


zeitgeist. I think as much as it is trendy to talk about a conscious


uncoupling, I think actually people's heart are not in it. Even


though it is a very difficult time for the Labour Party, whether you


call it Civil War, whether you call it an impasse, I think actually


people's hearts are for sticking with the Labour Party, Neil Kinnock


made an impassioned speech at Monday's night meeting of the


Parliamentary Labour Party. People feel if the Labour Party was to


split now, there might be a short kind of feel-good factor but it


would do us real damage, on a long ongoing basis and probably deliver a


right-wing Government, for decades. Could I ask though, we have sat, I


don't know whether we have sat you in these seats or not. You are


closer to Vince Cable, like you are this far from Vince Cable and you


are this far from Jeremy Corbyn. You are much closer. You are much closer


to Vince Cable than Jeremy Corbyn. I am going to push back on that, I


think at the moment, the impasse we have got is not so much an


ideological divide, lots of o people are welcoming of jer m's politics,


social justice, equality, they are of their time, particularly the


anti-austerity rhetoric. It is about the quality of his leadership. That


is the issue. It is not ideological divide it is leadership. Vince


Cable, close to sigh that. That is the honest answer. ? What would your


advice be to the 150, 170 Labour MPs who are dissatisfied with their


leader, they will be stuck with him because the party constitution will


impose him on them. The present situation is not sustainable. They


will be massacred at the next election, we are looking for the


first time for decades, fundamental realignment. It is more likely to


happen now, because the bonds of the voters to parties have gradually


eroded and people are more open to it. It can happen in two ways, one


is that my party rises from the Ashes, it is growing rapidly again


and we then attract individuals, probably from the Labour Party, and


some Tories too. And it becomes a genuine centre movement. The


alternative is that the Labour Party split, you get a large chunk of not


just old Social Democrats but centrist type Labour people. They


become the centre of activity, and the anti-Tory front, and they try to


work with us, the Greens and other, there are two different way, one


will happen. There is a huge difference, one is a left-wing thing


and another is a seven tourist thing. And I people in have been


talking about the models as if they are one and the same. They are


different. Rachel. I don't know whether you are a paid up member of


Labour, I know you are more sympathetic to him. What do you feel


when you hear Vince Cable outline the two paths? Well, I think I am


more inclined to agree with Ayesha in the sense I don't think the


Labour Party really wants to split. I think the people who are, have


been having problems with Corbyn and voted against him, when it comes to


down to it, don't really want to split the party, I mean it wouldn't


be in their interests to split, and you know, go alone and be a small


independent faction without the funding, and the organisational


mechanisms and the backing of the Labour Party, and I think that you


know, it wasn't that great that the vote of no confidence was carried


out in a secret ballot but one of the advantages of after that is that


we don't need to know, nobody need ever know who voted how, so that in


the hopefully forthcoming reconciliation process, there is a


way back, there is way to talk to core birntion and find way to


resolve the issues, Unite have offered to mediate, they are


professionally mediating. You are talking with Corbyn there, you are


not saying let's save the party so my side will step down. I am talking


about save the party, one of the major things about saving the party


is saving the democratic processes of that party, you can't throw them


in the air because you don't like the leader, because if you throw


away the democratic process you have thrown away the party. Although the


members are very important, but the Labour Party is a union between the


members, and the people who are elected, to Parliament, by their


constituencies, the public and MPs do lots of good work in Parliament.


We have talked a lot about that over the last three week, particularly


the light of Jo Cox, so the members are important, but the Labour Party


is not just a pressure group. We have got think about the next


general election, we have got to think about winning seat, not just


stacking up a share of the vote. It is starting to great the implication


that the people who support Corbyn are not interested in winning


election, of course we are. Of course we are interested in power,


that is what we are in it for, we want to see progressive change, we


want an anti-austerity platform, now, we might disagree about the


mechanisms, but there is a process, there is a democratic process, the


party has. We need a good leader. The country is in massive crisis,


right now, I mean, enormous, we have not had this in my lifetime. We


desperately need a coherent opposition to face the Government.


Whether it is in Parliament or in fresh election, and as long as the


Labour Party is immersed in this totally navel-gazing, inward looking


debate, that problem cannot be confronted. They have to start


looking out ward. They do. They will not survive if they don't. I get the


impression from MP, you and I are ain agreement Rachel. I don't think


we want the party to split. There would be a heavy price to pay for


that and there is one man that can stop that and that is Jeremy Corbyn.


You are saying we agree we don't want to it split, I want your side


to give way to mine. No. You are saying keep Corbyn, If the situation


is versed I would say the same thing. Would they? Would you expect


people to say things they do not believe out of loyalty for Jeremy


Corbyn? Would he do that? Would he stick by a leader come what may?


That is the thing, when it comes down to it, what is it, what are the


policies that these MPs disagree with Corbyn on? What is it about...


It is not an ideological... It is come fence in leadership. When you


go for your next apraisele you can't say I think I am brilliant, even


though I am sure they will, you can't just declare you are


brilliant. When you win the leadership of the Labour Party, you


win the right to, to lead, you win an opportunity to lead. You don't


win a divine right to fail and cling on and destroy the party. I want to


bring Vince in on this. The story of the SDP haunts this. You were there,


you were involved. I was. Do you think of it being a success, what


lessons would you draw? Some of the personalities are at the


same, Jeremy Corbyn was a big figure in North London Labour. Europe was


in the background. The difference is the way that the parties have


changed, the old tribal loyalties have gone. From the point of view of


Labour activists it was a failure because the Tories continued in


power. In a deeper sense probably it was successful, it forced the Labour


Party to confront electability and so you had real Kimmich and then


John Smith and Tony Blair who made the party a highly successful party


of government until the Iraq War. -- Neil Kinnock. Without the SDLP it


would have been much more difficult to achieve. We will see if there is


a split. Any predictions of that happening? I think the Labour Party


will fight to reconcile and get some kind of marriage counselling sorted


out, that is my hope. I think marriage counselling is the way


forward, absolutely. If there are not irreconcilable differences.


Now, before we go, it's the biggest day in Welsh


football history tomorrow, as they take on Portugal


in the semi-final of the European Championships.


To get you in the mood, here's former National Poet


of Wales, Gillian Clarke, who has recorded a special


version of her poem, Stadium, just for us.


The legend goes like this: the land is cold and bare,


when the people wake to a strange new hope and a mood


There is one with a silver boot and one with a raptor's stare,


and all of them young and strung with steel, and ready


There is one with the speed of a hound, and one with the heart


of a hare, and millions to surge and urge them on,


A cloud lifts from the land, the sun stands in the air,


when the ball goes straight through the golden gate,


like a comet with streaming hair, the bells will ring and the people


Good evening. A rather cool might on the way but any early chill one


debate but the sunshine tomorrow morning. The cloud increases from


the West, turning some of the sunshine


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