04/07/2016 Newsnight


04/07/2016

In-depth analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. Newsnight looks at the leadership of the Conservative Party, Ukip and BHS, and a divorce lawyer tackles Brexit.


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I think there is a touch of the Thatcher about her and she is a very

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human person as well. There are so many different aspects to her. She's

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not just a politician. Is the Andrea Leadsom

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bus gathering speed? We'll be debating the future

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direction of the party And leadership or lack

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thereof, part three, Dominic Chappelle, the man bought it

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for ?1, before the place went bust. Did I take a lot of money out? Yes,

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I did. Did the business fail because of the money I took out? No, it

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didn't. This was a dripping ocean compared to the money that was

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needed to turn around BHS. You say you took a big risk. It failed.

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Where's the comeback against you? The future of the country

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and its post-Brexit The selection of our

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new Prime Minister is under way. It's rather like a general election,

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in fact, except we We are spectators,

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except at the hustings, Our political editor,

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Nick Watt, has been For a quarter of a century,

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Conservatives have dreamt of a return to the golden era of Margaret

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Thatcher. Now, some are hoping they've stumbled on a modern version

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of the iron laidiment -- Iron Lady. In a packed and sweaty room in the

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heart of Westminster, Andrea Leadsom stormed into the leadership contest,

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immediately raising the prospect of a run-off between two women. Theresa

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May is currently the front runner, but she'll be alarmed by a

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Conservative home poll of its readers which suggest that Andrea

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Leadsom has just edged ahead of her. Together they have three quarters of

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the vote with others lagging behind. If Leadsom is to make the final

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round, she has to win the Brexit crown from two senior rivals. Do you

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think that the other Brexit candidates in this race, Michael

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Gove and Liam Fox, should stand aside? I don't think we should have

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any sort of coronation. I personally believe the person who takes forward

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our country needs to be someone who believes in the opportunities

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outside the EU. The electorate of Conservative MPs was once described

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as the most duplicitous in history. By tomorrow night we will know the

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lie of the land, when the results of the first ballot amongst MPs is

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announced. Tonight, Conservative MPs were in their element scheming in

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the corridors of the Palace of Westminster ahead of tomorrow's

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first ballot in the Tory leadership contest. Will Liam Fox, who's

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currently in last place, do what he did last time and out perform

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expectations? Will Stephen crab come from, well, nowhere to put his mark

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on the map? Will Michael Gove overcome perceptions that he's

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something a political assassin who finished off David Cameron and Boris

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Johnson? Or will history be made as the Conservative Party that

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delivered this country its first woman Prime Minister make history

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again with the first run-off in the country between two women Andrea

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Leadsom and treesa May? Ahead of tomorrow's ballot the five

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candidates had to appear before Tory MPs at a hustings tonight. As MPs we

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all are used to pitching to other people to vote for us. Less used to

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being pitched To vote for someone else. That's the situation in which

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we've found ourselves today. Theresa did incredibly well. She passed the

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blink test. When you look at someone when you're presenting, do they have

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the air of a Prime Minister? In this particular case, yes, she did.

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Andrea Leadsom is still something of a newcomer. She only entered

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Parliament in 2010. Critics say her inexperience was exposed at

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tonight's meeting where she failed to connect with MPs across the

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party. But one of her oldest friends in politics believes she has great

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potential. I think there is a touch of the Thatcher about her. So

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wanting to see it through, batting for Britain, having the balls in a

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man's world, those are things you could attribute to Mrs T that our

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girl's got this time. Tonight Andrea Leadsom received a fip ill when

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Boris Johnson endorsed his comrade. This former banker, who's not even a

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member of the Cabinet still has her work cut out to show her friends on

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the Thatcherite right that she has what it takes to step into the Iron

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Lady's shoes. And Nick is here now with the latest

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on the leadership contest. Where do you think they all stand

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tonight? There's a lot of scheming ahead of the first ballot tomorrow.

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Theresa May is the front runner. There's an interesting contest

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amongst the runners for the Brexit crown. Andrea Leadsom had a less

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than brilliant performance at the 1922 Committee this evening, which

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is giving great hope to Michael Gove's camp who believe he really

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has a big bat toll overcome the assumption that he's a bit of a

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political assassin. They're hoping there's a boost for him. They're

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going to Theresa May's supporters going, she's in the bag, lend me

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your votes. One person, there's a conspicuous absence from all the

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endorsements we've heard, one George Osborne. What is he doing? I spoke

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it a very good friend of George Osborne today who said he should do

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a William Hague, take a back seat for five years, then there will be a

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clamour for him to return. The message from the George Osborne camp

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is that there -- he is here to serve. He would like to serve under

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the next Prime Minister under Chancellor but no deals are being

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struck. Well, let's talk to two senior

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Conservatives who are representing Backing Michael Gove,

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is Ed Vaizey, Culture Minister. And supporting Theresa May

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is Sir Eric Pickles, the former Communities

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and Local Government Secretary. Good evening both. Ed, you were the

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most enthusiastic of Remainers, correct, and you've chosen the most

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enthusiastic of Brexiteers. Yes, Michael Gove probably has the most

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broad support among Remainers and Leavers. Roughly split 50/50.

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Theresa has a lot of Remainers and Andrea a lot of Leavers. Eric, what

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is Theresa May's Brexit policy? What is the minimum she will accept on

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free movement? What price is she willing to pay for that in leaving

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the single market? We're clear that Theresa and just about every other

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candidate has said no to free movement. I think given the nature

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of the referendum it would be a very foolish politician that suggested

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that free movement would be possible. What Theresa's managed to

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put together is a winning team - You're not answering the question.

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Emergency brake? Would that be enough? This is the debate over the

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future of our country. It's not unreasonable to ask, is an emergency

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brake enough? I think it's pretty clear that there will be no

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movement, no free movement. We won't have anything that would allow

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automatic movement. The Norway option entirely out, it cannot

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happen, no Norway, full membership of the single market, you've given

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up on that? It would seem that is the case. I'm not a spokesman for

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Theresa. I understand, but you're accepting that effectively. I went

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to the hustings. I went to both sets of hustings this evening in order to

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keep you informed. It's pretty clear all of them were saying no movement.

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And you, Ed, are happy, you're culture minister, one of our big

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service exporting industries, the culture industry is in absolutely no

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doubt where it would like us to be, which is in the single market, if

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not in the EU itself. You're happy supporting a candidate who is

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basically thinks we should be right out of the single market and be at

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arm's length. I'm glad you spotted the astonishing figures for the

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creative industries showing that they're growing three times faster.

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They are our most successful industries. That's one of the

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reasons I was Remain. We are all Brexiters now. They've been

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flourishing in the single market. The people have spoken. The

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referendum has been done. We need to do the best deal for our economy and

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successful industries. Will they flourish as much outside? I think

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there are great opportunities. I'm a great optimist. I'm looking to the

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trade deals we can do around the world. It would be ridiculous to

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have a referendum where more people have voted than any other time and

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now say, thanks very much, but we're going to do exactly the opposite. I

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would just say quickly, when I talk to businesses in the sectors I

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represent, they are all saying that there are a lot of huge strengths in

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the UK economy. We still want to invest. We work in markets which

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aren't single markets and we do all right. What is the evidence that

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ending free movement at the cost of leaving the single market is the

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most popular option with the electorate? I think it's pretty

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clear, immigration dominated the campaign. I had a completely

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different view. I would personally have liked a Norway kind of option.

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I would have preferred to stay in. But you've got to accept the will of

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the people. When we polled last week, we actually found Norway was

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ahead of other options. Why? Because they were 48% of the option were

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Re-mainers. You only need a few Remainers to say they quite happeny

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with Norway. You only need a few Brexiteers to say they're happy with

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Norway. I'm surprised you've given up on it so quickly. We've got to

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get a Prime Minister in place. That Prime Minister will determine our

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strategy in terms of negotiation. We're not in a tearing hurry to

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invoke article 50. We now know all the candidates are of the same mind

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this evening. We no longer have a candidate who wants to do it

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straight away. Once we've got a Prime Minister in place, then we'll

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at that time have a strategy. Then we can come on your wonderful

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programme and debate Norway, Switzerland, anything you want.

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Would it be reasonable for people looking in on the debate and we're

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not allowed in the hustings, so we haven't been party to that, to say

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actually, wouldn't it be nice if the country had some say in this. You've

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made assertions about what the country thinks. We don't know. We've

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had a poll, we don't know. Wouldn't it be right that the public should

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have some say, you're going to make irreversible decisions about the

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future of our country on the basis of - I mean the choice of Brexit

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option has not been put to an electoral test. No the clear message

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is that we want stability. Gove calls himself the change candidate.

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We had an election last year. He says he's a change candidate not

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continuity. You have to come in and help me. You're backing the change

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candidate and saying we don't need to put that to an election because

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we had an election last year for a different set of policies. We had an

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election last year. I think people want stability. We've been through

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the trauma of the referendum. We will have to negotiate a new

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relationship with the European Union. We don't need an election

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now. What we need is a good leader. If we want stability - We are making

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that case to MPs now. That will be put to the membership. Nick is at

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the door, listening to the hustings. The public are present. Forgive me,

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we fight an election to give this referendum and we would abide by the

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result. We're doing exactly what we said we'd do. We're not in a

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position in which the political situation is the one that was in the

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Tory manifesto. Can I just ask you, Sir Eric, Theresa May is the

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continuity candidate, for stability. I think you've made that point in

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her defence. She is the candidate who is basically saying, we might

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conceivably deport three million people. I went to the second

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hustings. I heard her say that she expected and hoped that EU migrants

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would remain and that there would be no desire to remove them. I don't

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seriously think that was ever on the possibility. What my concern has

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always been - Why didn't she clarify that. She raised it. She has

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clarified it. When did she do that. I saw her on Peston, she said this

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is all part of negotiation. She clarified it in private to the Tory

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party, you mean? Where did she clarify it? She clarified it at the

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first hustings. She clarified it at a private hustings? I don't see why

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you should be so shocked about that. I never thought - it's never been a

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serious possibility. She raised it. Is there any chance I could speak?

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Go ahead. I would like a clear statement from the Government. Not

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because I think there's any possibility of removing them. My

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concern is more complicated than that. It's a worry that all these

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top surgeons, top consultants, all these top engineers who could earn

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their living anywhere in the world might be concerned and might leave

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the country. Can you tell us what the clarification was, is it

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possible, conceivable that say, Polish people who arrived here three

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years ago will be sent home? I don't think that's even vaguely possible.

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I don't think you think that's vaguely possible. And that's her or

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you speaking on that point? She said that she hoped and was sure that EU

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residents will be able to stay within the United Kingdom. I think

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that is absolutely right. Different to what she said. No, it's not

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different. Thank you both very much. Nick is still here. Tory party,

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interesting debates going on there, obviously. Labour, meeting of the

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Parliamentary Labour party this evening a few doors down from the

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Tory hustings Yes an emotional meeting. Tom Watson said I saw

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Jeremy Corbyn this morning and I said you've lost the confidence of

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plp, you should go. He said he's going to meet trade union leaders

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tomorrow to try and secure a negotiated settlement. If there is

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no way out, then he's been clear there will probably be within days,

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a challenge, possibly from Angela eagle or Owen Smith.

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In the trade unions, we will have to see what they say. But the biggest,

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most charged moment came from Neil Kinnock, where he said to Jeremy

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Corbyn, you are not from the tradition of the labour movement.

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Which is about parliamentary democracy, getting elected to

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Parliament, forming a government and improving the lives of the working

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people. You appear to be committed to the extraparliamentary route

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because you have lost the confidence of Parliament and you are going onto

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the streets which is not the tradition, says Neil Kinnock.

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Just when you thought you didn't have enough of leadership contests,

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along comes another one with Nigel Farage

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Ignore the suggestion that he is gunning for job

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He wanted his life back, he said, having seen the main goal

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Here are three things the party needs to decide.

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Just one you, there is some flash photography in this. -- just to warn

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you. Decision one, what kind of party is Ukip when it comes to

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issues other than the EU? Most parties are messy coalitions of

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different factions and that is as true of Ukip as it is for there

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established rivals. One wing is more conservative than the Conservatives.

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Tough on welfare and crime, it believes in a small state, lower

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taxes and less borrowing. By cutting taxes by ?18 billion, I think there

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is a strong argument that says that will lead to dynamic growth within

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the economy. We saw examples of this. The natural goal of

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Conservative Ukip is the taking of Tory seats. But that may be harder

:17:27.:17:30.

with the Tory Party taking Britain out of the EU. But there is another

:17:31.:17:35.

Ukip as well, the blue-collar champion, sometimes called red Ukip,

:17:36.:17:39.

the party that wants to take seats from Labour. It puts more emphasis

:17:40.:17:43.

on beating up the rich and getting companies to pay their share of

:17:44.:17:46.

taxes. It wants to preserve the welfare state. It is the Ukip of

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Patrick Coughlin, the former economic spokesman. The big

:17:53.:17:56.

multinationals are excessively taking advantage of aggressive tax

:17:57.:18:04.

avoidance schemes. Some are and some are not. I do not want this to be

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purely a left-wing point. Decision two for Ukip, what kind of tone

:18:09.:18:14.

should adopt? The party is united on Google scepticism, Patrick is and a

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desire to control immigration but not united in the way it talks about

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immigration in particular. Will a new leader try to ramp up the

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rhetoric or try to appear more conciliatory? There are those who

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are basically four Rice, who would continue the basic message that it

:18:34.:18:37.

has at the moment, which is make sure that the government continues

:18:38.:18:46.

in the way it has been going, performing Westminster and ensuring

:18:47.:18:49.

that Brexit is delivered 100%. But there are others who, irrespective

:18:50.:18:54.

of what happens in terms of Britain's relationship with Europe,

:18:55.:18:57.

would want to push Ukip Darren in more strident line of social and

:18:58.:19:02.

cultural issues, campaigning more exclusively against Islam and

:19:03.:19:08.

immigration. And a third decision, how to make Ukip a more professional

:19:09.:19:13.

operation. More members, more backing, more seats, doing all of

:19:14.:19:18.

that with a Nigel Farage sized hole in the middle. There is a remarkable

:19:19.:19:22.

contradiction during the referendum campaign. On the one hand, Ukip

:19:23.:19:28.

delivers its lifelong goal of Brexit, but on the other hand,

:19:29.:19:34.

throughout that campaign the party probably only attracted around 1000

:19:35.:19:40.

new members. On the surface, but behind the sound bites, behind the

:19:41.:19:45.

national discussion and debates, I think something with in the Ukip is

:19:46.:19:51.

not quite clicked. Matthew Goodwin who spent several years studying

:19:52.:19:52.

Ukip as an academic. I'm joined now in the studio

:19:53.:19:53.

by Peter Whittle, London Assembly member and Ukip's candidate

:19:54.:20:00.

for London mayor earlier this year, and Raheem Kassam, chief

:20:01.:20:02.

advisor to Nigel Farage We're also joined from

:20:03.:20:04.

the Strasbourg parliament by Margot Parker, Ukip MEP

:20:05.:20:07.

for the East Midlands. Thank you very much indeed. A quick

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question, are any of you thinking of standing? Argue a candidate? Maybe.

:20:17.:20:22.

We will see. We are all thinking about it. The events of the day are

:20:23.:20:27.

sinking in. There is a lot of talent in Ukip now and I think there is a

:20:28.:20:33.

lot of opportunity. And Margo, who are you supporting if you are not a

:20:34.:20:36.

candidate? We are all candidates and we are supporting all of the talent

:20:37.:20:41.

that Ukip has two offer. And we have a lot of talent. Let's ask the

:20:42.:20:49.

question of tone. Rahim, do you think the tone should reach out to a

:20:50.:20:54.

broader swathe of the population? Review a supporter of the breaking

:20:55.:20:58.

point poster? I think the breaking point poster looked clumsy but I

:20:59.:21:03.

think how it was executed was very bad. But actually the message was

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fine. That was a real picture from southern Europe from 2015. Nobody

:21:10.:21:12.

complained when it was on the front page of the Independent. The message

:21:13.:21:17.

was mixed up. It did not make clear what it was talking about and that

:21:18.:21:22.

was the failure of the European Union to manage migration. What

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coming onto in terms of tone is execution and professionalism,

:21:30.:21:30.

something I spoke about last year when I left my position. Margo, you

:21:31.:21:38.

have undoubtedly seen that poster. Yes. I reiterate what Rahim has

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said, it had been there and perhaps it was a little clumsily executed,

:21:46.:21:49.

but the message was there. And you did not think there was too much

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hate in it? You did not think, a lot of people have been very critical,

:21:55.:21:59.

haven't they? They have. I would not use the word hate. A lot of people

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do but it is not really appropriate. It was not right. People said that

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they were refugees but of course you could not possibly know whether they

:22:09.:22:12.

were or they were not. It is just a picture that was out in the media.

:22:13.:22:16.

It was selected and the message, as Rahim has said, perhaps it did not

:22:17.:22:22.

get across sensitively enough. Peter, were you happy with the

:22:23.:22:25.

poster? Is the party behind that Tony? I did not have a problem with

:22:26.:22:31.

it. I think when you went outside the Westminster bubble, and a lot of

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people knew what the poster was saying, I don't think that it was as

:22:36.:22:41.

badly taken as has been discussed. But I think the main point is that

:22:42.:22:48.

tone or no tone, a lot of people, particularly in the Westminster

:22:49.:22:50.

bubble, think that talking about immigration at all is the wrong

:22:51.:22:53.

tone. And that is something we should never stop doing. What about

:22:54.:23:00.

Nigel Farage's performance and the new European Parliament last week.

:23:01.:23:06.

Magnificent. You have to have context of buying this. If you have

:23:07.:23:09.

been inside the chamber and watched proceedings, you know that they are

:23:10.:23:13.

always giving it to each other. There are all these robust exchanges

:23:14.:23:17.

and it is actually pretty funny. And they go out smoking Andrew King with

:23:18.:23:21.

each other after it. And Nigel Farage does the same? They all love

:23:22.:23:26.

him? They get along. Have you ever had a real job? I have worked in

:23:27.:23:31.

three different retail jobs, I have worked in a buyer. These are casual

:23:32.:23:38.

jobs. Yes, but I was working in them full-time. I worked in a call

:23:39.:23:42.

centre. I know what a real job is. Is this a leadership bid? Let's talk

:23:43.:23:48.

about the left and right. Peter Whittle, if you were running the

:23:49.:23:52.

party, would you try to take it more towards appealing to Labour voters,

:23:53.:23:58.

of whom there are very many, or would you say, look, it is former

:23:59.:24:04.

Tories who want a bit more Tory? All the elections I have stood in,

:24:05.:24:09.

whether it was for the Will.i.am or the election, anecdotally the people

:24:10.:24:14.

who are coming across to Ukip in the greatest numbers were Labour,

:24:15.:24:18.

without question. I think that this is the great opportunity for Ukip

:24:19.:24:25.

going forward. No question about it. We all know the referendum campaign.

:24:26.:24:30.

It was basically in the north that the referendum was won. People were

:24:31.:24:34.

largely forgotten, and I say that as a Londoner, by people down here. And

:24:35.:24:39.

that is where our support and the growth in our support lies. Those

:24:40.:24:47.

people are people who are patriotic, and they believe also in the NHS and

:24:48.:24:51.

they have a great sense of social justice. Marco do you agree with

:24:52.:24:55.

that? That is where you have to look for votes and if that means giving

:24:56.:25:00.

up some of the more Tory talk about smaller governments and big tax

:25:01.:25:07.

cuts, so be it? -- Margot. I think Peter is absolutely right. When we

:25:08.:25:14.

toured in the battle bus, we really went to the North of England and we

:25:15.:25:21.

had a tremendous reception there. We worked cross-party, but we had a

:25:22.:25:25.

great response from Labour voters. They did seriously connect with us.

:25:26.:25:30.

This has been going on for years, it is not a new thing. We listened to

:25:31.:25:34.

them and we knew that they were being neglected because they told us

:25:35.:25:38.

about their problems. We actually listened. Of course we have a more

:25:39.:25:42.

sensitive manifesto and we want to do things that actually help people.

:25:43.:25:46.

It is not just words, we actually believe it and we think there is a

:25:47.:25:50.

big opening here to be able to move forward and genuinely help people

:25:51.:25:53.

because if we do not, the country needs this help. But does the party

:25:54.:26:01.

needs to change its message in order to hone in on those voters, to

:26:02.:26:06.

refine its appeal? Well, we are moving on. The party has expanded

:26:07.:26:13.

and we certainly need to put structure there are so that we can

:26:14.:26:16.

cope with the membership that we have got. Of course loads of people

:26:17.:26:21.

are calling us all sorts of times of the day. My office is constantly

:26:22.:26:27.

being called, with people asking what I can do. We are being called

:26:28.:26:32.

in, even as MEPs, would you believe, to help with some of the things

:26:33.:26:36.

going on in the United Kingdom. And being a member of the EU, that does

:26:37.:26:39.

not necessarily involve the practical issues. Can I add to what

:26:40.:26:48.

Marco is saying, that the people who are active in Ukip, it is often hard

:26:49.:26:52.

to tell whether they are former Labour or former Tory. -- Margot it

:26:53.:26:56.

has purely come from the idea that this is something with the shires. I

:26:57.:27:01.

think if we were having this conversation in 2010, maybe. But not

:27:02.:27:03.

any more. We need to leave it there. Events of recent days have

:27:04.:27:07.

overshadowed some of the other stories that had been

:27:08.:27:10.

dominating the news. You might remember that

:27:11.:27:11.

before the referendum, capitalism was in crisis,

:27:12.:27:13.

with cases like the collapse of BHS bringing the whole

:27:14.:27:15.

system into disrepute. You won't be surprised to hear

:27:16.:27:17.

that the problem of the BHS pension The investigations into what went

:27:18.:27:24.

wrong at BHS are not complete. One character at the centre of

:27:25.:27:29.

the collapse is Dominic Chappelle, who bought BHS for ?1,

:27:30.:27:31.

was accused not only of being clueless in running

:27:32.:27:35.

the company but also of taking money BBC business correspondent,

:27:36.:27:38.

Adam Parsons went to What do you think of being described

:27:39.:27:52.

as bankrupt? What did you learn from those two processors. You learn a

:27:53.:27:57.

lot. It wipes you out financially and morally, and it is a very bitter

:27:58.:28:03.

pill to swallow. As an entrepreneur, you take financial risks sometimes.

:28:04.:28:06.

Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. You need to look at people

:28:07.:28:11.

like Donald Trump, who have put a number of companies through

:28:12.:28:14.

bankruptcy. There are mechanisms that make people bankrupt very

:28:15.:28:18.

quickly and in other countries, there are ways through that. Ways

:28:19.:28:23.

where you can avoid the stigma that is attached to it. But here, if you

:28:24.:28:29.

owe money and people call it in, you are wiped out. I am one of many

:28:30.:28:32.

thousands in this country who have been made bankrupt. And that is a

:28:33.:28:38.

fact of life. I have not done anything wrong apart from owing

:28:39.:28:41.

money. I have not stole the money from the company or misused the

:28:42.:28:46.

company administration for my own games, it is purely that when things

:28:47.:28:49.

go wrong, they go wrong and if you cannot get out of it, you cannot get

:28:50.:28:56.

out of it. How have you made money? A number of ways. My family and I

:28:57.:29:00.

have always dealt heavily in the Middle East, we have always had big

:29:01.:29:04.

parts in Libya. We have had an office over there since the 70s.

:29:05.:29:10.

During that time, working in Libya, did you meet the Gaddafis? I did, on

:29:11.:29:16.

a number of occasions. And what was that like? It was difficult. I met

:29:17.:29:23.

him once and I met one of his sons once. And how would you compare with

:29:24.:29:28.

dealing with the Gaddafi family and dealing with Sir Philip Green? It

:29:29.:29:37.

was a difficult comparison, but Gaddafi was seemingly nuts. He was

:29:38.:29:40.

completely insane in his latter years and negotiating with him was

:29:41.:29:43.

slightly easier than it was with Philip. This germ of an idea that is

:29:44.:29:52.

in your head about buying BHS, what did you know about PHS at that time?

:29:53.:29:56.

What drew you to it? Was at the fact that it was a well-known retailer or

:29:57.:30:02.

was this an investment opportunity? I actually knew nothing at all about

:30:03.:30:06.

PHS apart from the High Street retail store. You had never been

:30:07.:30:13.

into a PHS? A Parliamentary enquiry into PHS has seen Mr Chappelle

:30:14.:30:17.

derided by his one-time management colleagues. A Premier League liar, a

:30:18.:30:22.

Sunday pub league retailer. He called to a Premier League liar and

:30:23.:30:26.

a Sunday pub league retailer. I am not a retailer and I have never said

:30:27.:30:30.

I was. I have always said that I know nothing about retail. You guys,

:30:31.:30:35.

the people we are backing, the people we are putting money behind,

:30:36.:30:40.

you tell us that you can turn this business around, with retail alone,

:30:41.:30:47.

you have let us down on that side. The bit about me being a liar, where

:30:48.:30:51.

does he get that from? He said because we did not deliver the money

:30:52.:30:54.

we promise to deliver. We delivered the money every time they needed it.

:30:55.:30:59.

But when the dam starts bursting and they ask you for more and more

:31:00.:31:03.

money, faster and faster, to keep up with losses, it becomes very

:31:04.:31:04.

difficult. I was particularly annoyed with

:31:05.:31:14.

Darren. Once again, he had countermanneded another board

:31:15.:31:17.

decision. This was in very dire times. I had a very, very strong and

:31:18.:31:21.

Frank conversation with Darren who was running the company for the

:31:22.:31:25.

shareholders of the company. I am the shareholder with my two

:31:26.:31:29.

co-shareholders. I did not use the word "kill". I said I would come and

:31:30.:31:33.

sort him out. I was going to sack him. You know Sir Philip green

:31:34.:31:39.

maintains that if he had subordinated his game, all it would

:31:40.:31:43.

have done is put off an inevitable death. No the inevitable death of

:31:44.:31:50.

that company was Philip not sorting out the pension and Arcadia. Lessons

:31:51.:31:57.

learned? A lot of lessons learned. I have the devil on my back of 11,000

:31:58.:32:01.

people out of work, which plays on me deeply. I unreservedly apologise

:32:02.:32:07.

for what happened. There are 11,000 people who should not have been

:32:08.:32:10.

unemployed now. We tried our hardest to save that business, even to the

:32:11.:32:13.

11th hour when it was looking very bad. When Philip forced the

:32:14.:32:17.

administration on us. We tried to do a deal with Mike Ashley. Do you

:32:18.:32:20.

regret the fact that people think you are a chancer? Chancer, yeah we

:32:21.:32:25.

took a chance with BHS. We were the only people to give it a go. We were

:32:26.:32:30.

the only people out of all the people that know Philip, out of all

:32:31.:32:33.

the retailers prepared to work hard to do that. If I'm a chancer for

:32:34.:32:39.

that, yes, I am. And the final thought, which is you are an

:32:40.:32:44.

entrepreneur, a capitalist, wouldn't it have sent out all the right

:32:45.:32:48.

signals for you to have said look, I own this business, want to build the

:32:49.:32:53.

value of my stake, but I don't need to take this vast salary out of it.

:32:54.:32:58.

You earned more in your stewardship that some people have earned in a

:32:59.:33:05.

lifetime of working with BHS? Yes, but it is a risk-reward. We live in

:33:06.:33:09.

a risk society. That's the way companies are built and fail. Did I

:33:10.:33:14.

take a lot of money out? Yes, I did. But did the business fail because of

:33:15.:33:18.

the money I took out? No, it didn't. This was a drip in the ocean

:33:19.:33:22.

compared to the money needed to turn around BHS. You say you took a big

:33:23.:33:27.

risk - it failed. Where's the comeback against you? You seem to

:33:28.:33:30.

have walked away a lot wealthier than you started it. Some will say

:33:31.:33:34.

risk-reward, you haven't had any risk. No, look. Here we are now with

:33:35.:33:39.

the failure of the company two months ago. I still have

:33:40.:33:43.

responsibilities as director to the company. We are going through a

:33:44.:33:46.

number of investigations, Parliamentary investigation, the

:33:47.:33:50.

pension investigation etc. These cost tens of thousands of pounds

:33:51.:33:54.

worth of legal bills again, the lawyers are making huge amounts of

:33:55.:34:00.

money out of this pre, in the middle and post BHS. Where's the come back

:34:01.:34:06.

against you? You seem to have walked away wealthier than you start today.

:34:07.:34:10.

Some will say, risk-reward, you haven't had any risk. Here we are

:34:11.:34:14.

now with the failure of the company two months ago. I have

:34:15.:34:17.

responsibilities as director to the company. We going through a number

:34:18.:34:21.

of investigations, Parliamentary investigation, the pension

:34:22.:34:23.

investigation, etc. These cost tens of thousands of pounds worth of

:34:24.:34:27.

legal bills again, the lawyers are making huge amounts of money out of

:34:28.:34:29.

it. Now, what is business

:34:30.:34:37.

thinking about Brexit? There is clear uncertainty

:34:38.:34:39.

about the place of this country Our business editor,

:34:40.:34:42.

Helen Thomas, is with me. Helen, latest being nomic

:34:43.:34:51.

indicators, what are they telling us? We have figures that suggest

:34:52.:34:56.

that business confidence has really cratered since the referendum. Now

:34:57.:35:01.

this is just a first guide to business' reaction, if they're less

:35:02.:35:05.

confident, they're less likely to invest and hire and so on. YouGov

:35:06.:35:09.

and the centre for economics and business research spoke to companies

:35:10.:35:12.

the week before the referendum. They spoke to them again last week. We

:35:13.:35:17.

have a first look at their data. You can see here, the share of

:35:18.:35:20.

businesses saying they were optimistic about the UK economy over

:35:21.:35:24.

the next year dropped very slightly. But what they saw was a big jump in

:35:25.:35:29.

the share of companies saying that they were pessimistic about the

:35:30.:35:33.

outlook. It went from 25% to 49%. Which is a huge move for this type

:35:34.:35:40.

of indicator. I spoke to one of the economists about how he interpreted

:35:41.:35:46.

that jump. Businesses are clearly spooked bit referendum result.

:35:47.:35:50.

They're reined in their intentions for capital spending. They've reined

:35:51.:35:55.

in their expectations for export and domestic sales growth. Business

:35:56.:35:59.

confidence is a leading indicator for where the economy is heading.

:36:00.:36:02.

What it suggests is that the economy is in for a significant slowdown

:36:03.:36:07.

over the next three to six months. Not great. Are there any other

:36:08.:36:12.

worrying signs? There is one. There was late news that falls into the

:36:13.:36:17.

camp of worrying. Standard Life has suspended redemptions on one of its

:36:18.:36:21.

big real estate funds, that fund invests in commercial property. What

:36:22.:36:25.

that means is that so many investors have basically asked to take their

:36:26.:36:30.

money out since the Brexit vote that Standard Life is concerned about

:36:31.:36:33.

having the funds on hand to meet those requests. Why is that

:36:34.:36:38.

important? The first thing is that this rush of investors wanting their

:36:39.:36:43.

money out reflects concerns about falling property values and why

:36:44.:36:46.

might values fall? They fall when demand falls. For example, Central

:36:47.:36:52.

London offices there may be less demand for space if big companies

:36:53.:36:56.

move people abroad. The second reason this captures the attention

:36:57.:37:00.

is that this is an echo of 2008. In the midst of the financial crisis,

:37:01.:37:07.

this fund and funds like this were forced to halt redemptions. It's the

:37:08.:37:13.

kind of financial dislocation that makes investors very, very uneasy.

:37:14.:37:17.

People don't like not being able to get their money back when they want

:37:18.:37:21.

it. We'll keep an eye on that, thank you very much.

:37:22.:37:22.

One international industry that has flourished in England in recent

:37:23.:37:25.

The courts in London have provided a divorce jurisdiction of choice

:37:26.:37:30.

to wealthy spouses the world over, if they have some connection here.

:37:31.:37:33.

So if divorce is our thing, what should Britain expect over

:37:34.:37:35.

the coming years of tortuous negotiation?

:37:36.:37:39.

We asked one of the top divorce lawyers, Ayesha Vardag,

:37:40.:37:41.

she's the one labelled by the tabloids as the diva

:37:42.:37:45.

of divorce, to offer her advice on how things tend to play out.

:37:46.:37:51.

# You'll take away the biggest part of me #

:37:52.:37:59.

Britain will be leaving the European Union.

:38:00.:38:01.

Europe is ready to start the divorce process even today.

:38:02.:38:08.

Do come in, have a seat, please don't be concerned.

:38:09.:38:15.

This is a familiar story for anyone working in family law.

:38:16.:38:24.

As the years go by, a troubled relationship becomes

:38:25.:38:29.

One party feels controlled by the other.

:38:30.:38:36.

It may be too many rules about who you can and can't see.

:38:37.:38:39.

Maybe it's regulations about the size and shape of your banana.

:38:40.:38:43.

Maybe they're fobbed off with, "We can talk about this tomorrow."

:38:44.:38:51.

Maybe they're increasingly embarrassed by their partner.

:38:52.:38:55.

# I'll be a fool for your loving no more.#

:38:56.:39:03.

One side may try and save the union by asking for marriage counselling.

:39:04.:39:06.

Agreements are thrashed out on emergency breaks

:39:07.:39:10.

and special statuses, all to prove that

:39:11.:39:13.

But then comes the point when nothing is enough,

:39:14.:39:22.

the marriage is doomed and ultimatuma and tantrums

:39:23.:39:25.

TRANSLATION: I will not accept we have to be endlessly blackmailed

:39:26.:39:32.

They cannot mess around with all of Europe for months on end.

:39:33.:39:37.

And so it comes, the crisis, something snaps.

:39:38.:39:40.

Maybe it's a text messages from an adultress lover.

:39:41.:39:43.

Maybe it's an economic collapse which threatens to

:39:44.:39:47.

In a fit of decisiveness, one party packs their bags

:39:48.:39:54.

and leaves straight into the arms of their lawyer,

:39:55.:39:57.

The reason you're so upset, the reason you're so angry has been

:39:58.:40:03.

perfectly clear from all the angry exchanges this morning -

:40:04.:40:07.

you, as a political project, are in denial.

:40:08.:40:14.

And then begins the lengthy legal process.

:40:15.:40:17.

No prenup here, just a simple divorce clause, article 50,

:40:18.:40:20.

Instead of directing your energy into all those new exciting

:40:21.:40:31.

hobbies you dreamed of, you're consumed with your case.

:40:32.:40:35.

Will you still have access to the children?

:40:36.:40:38.

You worry that you'll end up paying vast amounts of alimony.

:40:39.:40:44.

TRANSLATION: Anyone who wants to leave this family can't expect

:40:45.:40:46.

to lose their responsibilities whilst keeping all their privileges.

:40:47.:40:50.

That you'll be stuck on the outside, like an EEA member, paying out huge

:40:51.:40:54.

amounts to someone who no longer cares about you and still does

:40:55.:40:57.

TRANSLATION: They made their choice and now we see the consequences.

:40:58.:41:06.

The anxieties Britain faces now will be recognised by any divorcee.

:41:07.:41:10.

Suddenly your financial security evaporates.

:41:11.:41:14.

The person you shared your life with suddenly becomes a devious

:41:15.:41:17.

and steely negotiator who wants to take you to the cleaners.

:41:18.:41:21.

And what about all those new relationships and supportive

:41:22.:41:25.

Suddenly, they're nowhere to be found.

:41:26.:41:32.

Some of them are even flirting with your ex.

:41:33.:41:35.

Please, I beg you, do not let Scotland down now.

:41:36.:41:42.

When it comes to party invitations, you may find yourself

:41:43.:41:47.

A 40-year relationship cloven in two.

:41:48.:41:54.

The burst of confidence that spurred you to make your decision may feel

:41:55.:41:57.

like a bit of a wobble when the air clears.

:41:58.:42:01.

You fought for Brexit, aren't you responsible for implementing it?

:42:02.:42:05.

The world outside a relationship can feel like a very scary place.

:42:06.:42:12.

But as a divorce lawyer, I see the positive outcomes.

:42:13.:42:15.

TRANSLATION: We are sad about the way the vote turned out,

:42:16.:42:19.

but that's no reason to be especially nasty in negotiations.

:42:20.:42:23.

They find exotic new partners across the globe.

:42:24.:42:30.

They come out leaner and more confident, ready to take

:42:31.:42:34.

If there's a lesson from divorce, it's that anything is possible,

:42:35.:42:55.

it usually comes down to money and the lawyers always win.

:42:56.:43:14.

A couple of the papers. The Times leading on Boris backs Leadsom in

:43:15.:43:23.

race for Tory leadership. Number Ten hopeful faces questions over tax

:43:24.:43:28.

affairs. That's Leadsom not Boris. And the Sun is going on the

:43:29.:43:34.

resignation of Chris Evans from Top Gear. The end for flop Chris, gone

:43:35.:43:37.

after ratings plunge to record low. But if the last ten days have

:43:38.:43:41.

been hard, if you've quit or lost your job,

:43:42.:43:43.

if you've seen your colleagues turn on you, been publicly humiliated,

:43:44.:43:46.

seen your hopes turn to dust, well, then this one is just

:43:47.:43:49.

for you - Bill Pulman's legendary We can't be consumed by our petty

:43:50.:44:04.

differences any more. We ill be united in our common interests,

:44:05.:44:12.

perhaps it's fate that today is the fourth of July and you will once

:44:13.:44:17.

again be fighter for our freedom -- fighting for our freedom. Not from

:44:18.:44:24.

tyranny, oppression or persecution, but from annihilation. We're

:44:25.:44:31.

fighting for our right to live, to exist. And should we win the day,

:44:32.:44:38.

the 4th of July will no longer be known as an American holiday. But as

:44:39.:44:44.

the day when the world declared in one voice - "We will not go quietly

:44:45.:44:50.

into the night. We will not vanish without a fight. We're going to live

:44:51.:44:58.

on. We're going to survive. Today we celebrate our Independence Day.

:44:59.:45:02.

CHEERING Hello there. The heavy rain across

:45:03.:45:27.

southern Scotland and northern England tonight will be nothing more

:45:28.:45:30.

than patchy rain across eastern England into the morning. Quite a

:45:31.:45:32.

breeze that. Clears away

:45:33.:45:34.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, with Evan Davis. Newsnight looks at the leadership of the Conservative Party, Ukip and BHS, and a divorce lawyer tackles Brexit.


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