07/07/2016 Newsnight


07/07/2016

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A second female Prime Minister for Britain.

:00:00.:00:00.

Andrea Leadsom, 84 votes, Theresa May, 199 votes.

:00:07.:00:18.

Therefore Michael Gove, having the lowest number of

:00:19.:00:21.

votes, has been eliminated from the ballot.

:00:22.:00:24.

The Tories already have a female leader of course - in Scotland.

:00:25.:00:27.

I really don't have any message for that monster.

:00:28.:00:33.

He basically took away a person who was peaceful, who

:00:34.:00:39.

wanted unity in the world, who wanted the communities to unite.

:00:40.:00:42.

And: we've seen the headlines, but what lies buried

:00:43.:00:50.

deep within the pages of the Chilcot Report?

:00:51.:00:55.

I will be delving into this, extracting the tale of one

:00:56.:01:00.

particularly murky episode. And novelist Robert Harris explores

:01:01.:01:07.

the many lives of his former He often wore make-up, even when he

:01:08.:01:16.

was not in a television studio. I don't know why, maybe it's just

:01:17.:01:20.

appealed to him, that sense of always being a performer.

:01:21.:01:26.

Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom will duke it out to lead

:01:27.:01:30.

the Conservative Party and, of course, the nation

:01:31.:01:34.

after the final round of voting by MPs saw Justice

:01:35.:01:36.

Secretary Michael Gove limp home in third place.

:01:37.:01:39.

I would have described it as a massive shock once but,

:01:40.:01:43.

given the unprecedented political upheaval of the last

:01:44.:01:46.

fortnight, Mrs Leadsom's presence on the ballot -

:01:47.:01:49.

not to mention the absence of a Johnson or an Osborne -

:01:50.:01:52.

It all means not only that the next Prime Minister will be a woman

:01:53.:01:58.

but also that we won't have a firm hand on the country's tiller

:01:59.:02:01.

Newsnight's political editor Nick Watt is with me.

:02:02.:02:08.

Nick. As you were saying, an emphatic win for Theresa May, almost

:02:09.:02:17.

200 votes and 60% of Tory MPs think she should be Prime Minister. She

:02:18.:02:22.

will face in the final round Andrea Leadsom. She is also vote share

:02:23.:02:28.

increase to 25% of the total, 84 votes. Michael Gove in third place,

:02:29.:02:33.

humiliating result for him because his vote share went down and he is

:02:34.:02:36.

therefore disqualified from the contest. Theresa May's team, are

:02:37.:02:43.

they as confident as the numbers suggest? On paper she should walk it

:02:44.:02:48.

but her team are nervous, they think that Andrea Leadsom, as the Brexit

:02:49.:02:54.

campaign could run an insurgency campaign, some ministers say she is

:02:55.:02:58.

connecting in their constituencies. One Cabinet minister I spoke to said

:02:59.:03:02.

that if she becomes Prime Minister with only 25% of Tory MPs supporting

:03:03.:03:08.

hurt the Tories could have and Jeremy Corbyn situation. You called

:03:09.:03:11.

and humiliation for Michael Gove, any word on how he's taking it?

:03:12.:03:17.

Licking his wounds and the word from this camp is that he's really hurt

:03:18.:03:20.

at the end of this week from which she cannot escape from the image of

:03:21.:03:25.

being the double assassin. They say he won't be cutting any deals. He

:03:26.:03:30.

will accept a Cabinet post if he is offered one, if he is not offered

:03:31.:03:34.

one he will not brood and think when he can return. The dilemma for him

:03:35.:03:40.

is who dizzy endorse? He says it must be a Brexiteer as the next

:03:41.:03:44.

Prime Minister that Andrea Letson does not share his worldview. We

:03:45.:03:49.

thought we would take a look at her although I should warn that this

:03:50.:03:52.

report contains some flash photography.

:03:53.:03:57.

I can announce the result of the election for the leadership of the

:03:58.:04:03.

Conservative Party. Will it be third time lucky for the plucky outsider

:04:04.:04:07.

in the Conservative leadership contest? Andrea Leadsom has not even

:04:08.:04:14.

made it to the Cabinet yet she is now within reach of the premiership

:04:15.:04:18.

after making it the final stage of the battle choose David Cameron's

:04:19.:04:29.

succession. What do we want? She has a Eurosceptic fan base on the right

:04:30.:04:34.

of the party after playing a leading role on the Brexit side of the

:04:35.:04:38.

referendum campaign and debate Mrs Leadsom showed she will run an

:04:39.:04:42.

insurgency campaign by instructing the supporters to march on Whitehall

:04:43.:04:45.

other she did not trouble it with her presence. Concerns are raised

:04:46.:04:50.

about her lack of Cabinet experience could make a something of a novice

:04:51.:04:55.

as Prime Minister. Opponents also point to the socially conservative

:04:56.:05:00.

views which prompted her today to highlight her unease about same-sex

:05:01.:05:05.

marriage. Because she decided to abstain on the subject of same-sex

:05:06.:05:10.

marriage, this does not in any way make her less respectful of loving

:05:11.:05:14.

couples who just happened to be in a same-sex relationship. We have moved

:05:15.:05:23.

on. Get over it! Mrs Leadsom, who has so far escaped scrutiny as a

:05:24.:05:27.

relatively junior minister now finds her CV under the spotlight. Shortly

:05:28.:05:35.

after her election to Parliament in 2010 she finished her record in the

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City to MPs. I should declare that I have been in banking even longer

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than my honourable friend having been 23 years in investment banking

:05:45.:05:49.

and funds management. Now it seems that giving a ten year stint, she

:05:50.:05:53.

only had official approval to deal with funds for three months.

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Supporters of Theresa May say that she is a safer pair of hands. I

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think what people want is someone who can not only bring the party

:06:03.:06:08.

together but the country together. I think the results today has

:06:09.:06:12.

demonstrated that Theresa has that ability. It is no time for a risk.

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Friends of Andrea Leadsom are hurt by a tax on her record and what

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regard as a sneering attitude to the membership of the parliament Bible

:06:24.:06:26.

study group. They say that Christianity lies at the root of the

:06:27.:06:31.

plain speaking approach to politics and explains why she takes pride in

:06:32.:06:37.

delivering on her promises. With this background, the team have high

:06:38.:06:42.

hopes that Leadsom will go down as a major figure in British political

:06:43.:06:47.

history. This candidate can outstrip Margaret Thatcher. She is the real

:06:48.:06:52.

deal. She is absolutely fantastic. You ain't seen nothing yet. Would

:06:53.:06:58.

Theresa May outstrip Lady Thatcher? I don't think any of us would want

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to make that comparison. Theresa May's camp are nervously watching

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the newcomer, they hope the Home Secretary's overwhelming support

:07:09.:07:14.

among MPs will said the grass roots message to Tories determined to vote

:07:15.:07:17.

with their hearts we Brexit campaigner. Last time it was very

:07:18.:07:23.

close, this time it's two and a half times as many votes for Theresa May

:07:24.:07:27.

as for her nearest rival. So my message to the membership is, please

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think long and hard about your decision. British politics has

:07:32.:07:37.

undergone a roller-coaster ride in recent months. It is now over to

:07:38.:07:40.

Tory members to decide whether something of the old order is

:07:41.:07:45.

re-established. I'm hopeful, optimistic. Or if Britain will

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venture out of Europe with a true, though untested believer.

:07:52.:07:54.

We're joined now from our Edinburgh studio by Ruth Davidson, leader

:07:55.:07:56.

of the Scottish Conservatives, who earlier today announced

:07:57.:07:58.

she was backing Theresa May for Prime Minister.

:07:59.:08:03.

Michael Gove, Ruth, I know that he is not the force that he was a

:08:04.:08:09.

fortnight ago but he said the successful candidate must be on the

:08:10.:08:13.

winning side of the argument. Theresa May was not. Does Michael

:08:14.:08:18.

Gove have a point? Well I think it must be someone who can unite both

:08:19.:08:22.

the country and the party and I think Theresa May is the only one

:08:23.:08:26.

that can do that. She's already got the vast majority of the

:08:27.:08:29.

parliamentary party behind her and has huge support in all parts of the

:08:30.:08:31.

country and my colleagues in Scotland, both

:08:32.:08:52.

in the Commons and the house of Lords, the MEPs, myself in Holyrood,

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all four of us in this position is back and we also have to talk about

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some of the divides in this country, including the privileged few and

:08:59.:09:00.

those like me who went to the local comprehensive, someone who can speak

:09:01.:09:03.

to that and make sure government is for everyone in this country and not

:09:04.:09:05.

for those people who feel far removed from the corridors of power.

:09:06.:09:08.

Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom both went to grammar school, why can't

:09:09.:09:10.

Andrea Leadsom unite the party. There will be a lot of challenges

:09:11.:09:13.

for whoever comes up. This won't be easy years. We don't have much time,

:09:14.:09:18.

why can't Andrea Leadsom unite the party and the country? She hasn't

:09:19.:09:22.

got the plurality of the party behind her, she did not get support

:09:23.:09:25.

of the party in Scotland and in other parts of the country but I'm

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not here to criticise Conservative colleagues. It takes a lot of guts

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to put your name on a ballot paper, it takes guts to say you want to

:09:38.:09:40.

lead and I want to see a big broad debate across the UK and all the

:09:41.:09:43.

hustings planned for the candidates, it is right that the membership get

:09:44.:09:46.

there and say but I think it's right that in terms of the person who's

:09:47.:09:49.

got a steal for the job, who can go eyeball to eyeball with Angela

:09:50.:09:53.

Merkel and Nicholas Turgeon, it can only be Theresa May. When David

:09:54.:09:57.

Cameron re-signed two digit think would be the next prime Minster?

:09:58.:10:02.

Theresa May. What did she mean when she described the nasty party? About

:10:03.:10:08.

the few people used to have of us. She talked about that when she was

:10:09.:10:12.

chairman of the party. She has held big roles in the party and done a

:10:13.:10:17.

lot of work in the country, I know that every time I called her during

:10:18.:10:21.

the referendum, to make speeches all to come to drop to Scotland's

:10:22.:10:24.

business women, she was there and heartbeat. Anything she needed to

:10:25.:10:29.

do. She's got a huge capacity for work, all the leadership skills, she

:10:30.:10:33.

can see the way others work, the way people look at the party and don't

:10:34.:10:36.

like what they see and she knows the way she wants to change the party so

:10:37.:10:40.

it is for everyone and not just for one section of the society. Can you

:10:41.:10:46.

put flesh on those bums and tell me some of the ideologies you would

:10:47.:10:51.

have filed under nasty? I think the way that we spoke in the past, I was

:10:52.:10:56.

not a member of the party back in the days that you are talking about,

:10:57.:11:00.

I was still a BBC journalist being neutral like you are now. She was

:11:01.:11:04.

talking about the way in which often our opponents have thought we only

:11:05.:11:08.

spoke to one section when actually we are a broad church. I know in my

:11:09.:11:13.

first selection when I stood as a candidate, Michael Martin, the

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disgraced former Speaker of the House of Commons, I was being told

:11:17.:11:22.

that Margaret Thatcher shot the railroads when actually they were

:11:23.:11:27.

shot long before her, not because of industrial policy but they made

:11:28.:11:30.

steam locomotives when the world had moved on to diesels are many myths

:11:31.:11:34.

have been perpetrated about our party by its opponents and it's time

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to break them down. And by having to state educated women by merit, I

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think it will help address some of that. -- two state educated women.

:11:43.:11:54.

This is not a myth, Theresa May says she can't guarantee the lives of the

:11:55.:11:58.

immigrants who are here. She says she wants to guarantee them. I

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publicly said that I think she should give that guarantee. Why

:12:03.:12:09.

hasn't she? She knows if she takes on this role she's got work to do in

:12:10.:12:13.

making sure that the British abroad are allowed to stay, and looked

:12:14.:12:17.

after. I think the person in that role should be able to say,

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irrespective of that, that they should stay. The one thing David

:12:21.:12:24.

Cameron will tell you over the last five years is, while I am a

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supporter of colleague, when I disagree I will say and they will

:12:29.:12:32.

know about it. Do you know what her vision for Brexit is? Does it

:12:33.:12:37.

involve the single market? Have you had a conversation with her? I have

:12:38.:12:41.

and I've said that I want Scotland to have access to that single

:12:42.:12:45.

market. I think it is important for Scottish business, for a lot of

:12:46.:12:49.

sectors, passports for financial services and the best deal for

:12:50.:12:54.

Scotland's fishermen. A lot of sectors have specific interests and

:12:55.:12:58.

we need a hard negotiator who is tough and steely and can go toe to

:12:59.:13:02.

toe with the big players in Europe and who already has contacts with

:13:03.:13:06.

all the interior ministers like Theresa May does. While I think that

:13:07.:13:10.

Andrea Leadsom has a huge, Bright future in the party and has done

:13:11.:13:14.

incredibly well, I have been up against debates and she is talented

:13:15.:13:18.

but I think we need someone who can hit the ground running on day one

:13:19.:13:23.

and that is Theresa May. Hit the ground running yet not offer any

:13:24.:13:29.

decrease in immigration? There has been a lot of discussion. Actual

:13:30.:13:34.

policy? I think there will have to be a lot of work done, not just on

:13:35.:13:40.

the framework... What will that policy look like? On what is on the

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table form the other 27 nations. I don't think you can criticise anyone

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who wants the top job for wanting to keep their cards close to their

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chest before they go to Europe to negotiate. Forgive me for not having

:13:55.:13:59.

congratulated you sooner, Ruth, you got engaged on 23rd May. Andrea

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Leadsom described as of today as not happy with the legislation that

:14:06.:14:08.

would let you marry your girlfriend. I was a huge proponent of same-sex

:14:09.:14:13.

marriage and that still parts of the UK where that is not permitted, I've

:14:14.:14:20.

been invited by Amnesty to give the animal Pride march in Belfast...

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Would you want to be in a party led by a woman not happy with the fact

:14:24.:14:27.

that you could marry your fiance in a church? This is my party. She has

:14:28.:14:38.

such is not a huge supporter of it, how do you feel, is it a crisis of

:14:39.:14:43.

conscience, or water off a ducks back? I don't know Andrea Leadsom

:14:44.:14:47.

well, she said it was something to do with her faith, as a woman of

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faith myself. About my Christianity and some of the difficulties after

:14:53.:14:56.

reconciling my faith and my sexuality I know it can take time

:14:57.:15:00.

for people to do that. I'm very pleased that Theresa May was

:15:01.:15:03.

instrument or in bringing forward same-sex marriage, something I have

:15:04.:15:08.

supported going forward, and whoever becomes Prime Minister will get an

:15:09.:15:12.

invitation to my wedding when it happens! With Davis, thank you, and

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when that happy day dawns, I hope it is wonderful that you -- Ruth

:15:19.:15:20.

Davidson. The murder of Glasgow shopkeeper

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Asad Shah on 24th March this year sent shockwaves

:15:26.:15:27.

through the Shawlands area of the city and saw hundreds take

:15:28.:15:29.

to the streets for a vigil Today his killer pled guilty to the

:15:30.:15:32.

murder at Glasgow High Court. A well loved petition Pakistani

:15:33.:15:59.

shopkeeper, Asad Shah, is brutally murdered by another Muslim. A

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community, a family, are left asking why. Initially, tabloids linked the

:16:06.:16:12.

murder to a Facebook post hours before his death, where Asad Shah

:16:13.:16:15.

wished everybody a happy Easter. Others said he belonged to the

:16:16.:16:22.

persecuted Ackerman Ahmadiyya sect of Islam. This is the story of a

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murder planned in Bradford, carried out in Glasgow and inspired by

:16:29.:16:32.

events in Pakistan. It ties together the killing of a Scottish shopkeeper

:16:33.:16:38.

with the killing of the Pakistani politician five years ago. Both

:16:39.:16:43.

victims are accused by some Muslims as having committed Basa me. Today

:16:44.:16:49.

the killer of Asad Shah pleaded guilty to the murder. I haven't

:16:50.:16:55.

called him a man. I don't have any message for that monster. He

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basically took away a person who was peaceful, who wanted unity in the

:17:06.:17:11.

world, who wanted the community is to unite, who wanted to help the

:17:12.:17:20.

community and him harming somewhat someone of peace, literally, he is

:17:21.:17:32.

the enemy of humanity. On the 24th of March, Asad Shah had been working

:17:33.:17:37.

in his family's shop when he was brutally attacked. After stabbing

:17:38.:17:41.

him to death, his killer, who had travelled 200 miles from Bradford,

:17:42.:17:45.

calmly waited at a bus stop opposite for the police. Asad Shah's brother

:17:46.:17:52.

witnessed the attack but still finds it ethical to talk about. He said

:17:53.:17:58.

his father had brought the family to Scotland in the 1990s from Pakistan

:17:59.:18:04.

to escape religious intolerance. His pharmacy was set on fire by

:18:05.:18:08.

extremist there and a hospital was burnt down. We had an apartment

:18:09.:18:14.

above the pharmacy where my parents were with the kids. It was set on

:18:15.:18:19.

fire. My dad thought about our future and thought we would be safer

:18:20.:18:27.

in Britain. It's unimaginable, that's what's happened to my

:18:28.:18:30.

brother. And it was all my dad trying to protect the kids, thinking

:18:31.:18:35.

something like this would happen in Pakistan, and it has happened here.

:18:36.:18:39.

But it seems Asad Shah wasn't targeted for his faith, but for

:18:40.:18:45.

videos posted online. Recorded in his shop but discussing his

:18:46.:18:51.

spiritual beliefs. In some he claims to be a prophet himself. One of

:18:52.:18:56.

those who watched the videos and was incensed by them was 32-year-old

:18:57.:19:01.

Tanveer Ahmed, a minicab driver from Bradford, who would go on to murder

:19:02.:19:06.

Asad Shah. Tanveer Ahmed was a fervent admirer of another killer

:19:07.:19:12.

who had murdered a prominent Pakistani politician who had

:19:13.:19:18.

proposed to reform Pakistan's controversial blasphemy laws. He was

:19:19.:19:25.

held up as a hero, despite being executed earlier this year. His

:19:26.:19:31.

brother says Tanveer Ahmed had talked to him about the Glasgow

:19:32.:19:32.

shopkeeper Asad Shah. Photo tributes online portrayed the

:19:33.:19:50.

two killers together. Qadri's brother says Tanveer Ahmed was

:19:51.:19:56.

inspired by his example. Tanveer Ahmed wasn't the only person

:19:57.:20:14.

in Britain to admire Qadri. A number of mosques, including some in

:20:15.:20:18.

Glasgow and Bradford expressed support for him, even if they

:20:19.:20:23.

haven't for Tanveer Ahmed. Both Tanveer Ahmed and Qadri came from a

:20:24.:20:27.

strand of Islam normally associated with a spiritual, liberal

:20:28.:20:33.

interpretation of religion, one that completely opposes Al-Qaeda and

:20:34.:20:40.

Isis, but the murders they committed upsets the narrative. Extremism it

:20:41.:20:47.

seems is much more contradicted. Tonight, Tanveer Ahmed faces a

:20:48.:20:52.

lengthy jail sentence. But even from behind bars he seems able to spread

:20:53.:20:57.

his messages. This post on Facebook appears to be him sending his

:20:58.:21:03.

supporters Eid greetings earlier this week but we haven't been able

:21:04.:21:10.

to confirm it. It ends with a chilling warning, cut the heads from

:21:11.:21:15.

the bodies. The man who murdered your brother, he said he did so

:21:16.:21:19.

because he was defending the honour of the Prophet Muhammad because your

:21:20.:21:22.

brother was claiming to be a prophet. I think it's very clear,

:21:23.:21:32.

when you look at the history, the Prophet Muhammad did not result to

:21:33.:21:37.

violence and things like this. Asad Shah's family have been torn apart

:21:38.:21:41.

by the murder. They want to preserve his memory but are in fear of their

:21:42.:21:44.

lives. It's been very difficult for the family. The family don't feel

:21:45.:21:52.

safe any more. Living here in Scotland. And it has split the

:21:53.:22:04.

family apart, since the incident. And some members of the family have

:22:05.:22:11.

left Scotland, or are in the process of leaving and it really shouldn't

:22:12.:22:17.

have come to this. In the last few years,

:22:18.:22:24.

the word "whatever" and its youthful abbreviation "whatevs" have become

:22:25.:22:28.

bywords for banality, the stock response of

:22:29.:22:30.

the uninterested to tidings about which they

:22:31.:22:32.

could not care less. Strange, then, that Tony Blair's

:22:33.:22:33.

employment of it in a 2002 missive to George W Bush -

:22:34.:22:36.

"I will be with you, whatever" - has proved

:22:37.:22:39.

to be the most important of all 2.6 million words

:22:40.:22:43.

in the Chilcot Report. But we can't be sure of that

:22:44.:22:46.

quite yet because we That plum job's fallen

:22:47.:22:48.

to Newsnight's Diplomatic Editor, Mark Urban, who's now had 36 hours

:22:49.:22:53.

with a tome three times I have done a deep dive into volume

:22:54.:23:10.

eight here, there all manner of different stories and aspects of

:23:11.:23:13.

this. You can take your pick, really. The reason I have chosen to

:23:14.:23:19.

tell this story tonight is because it's a pretty extraordinary tale.

:23:20.:23:23.

Like many of other things, aspects of this were already in the public

:23:24.:23:27.

domain. The idea that Britain's exit from Iraq and Basra was subject to

:23:28.:23:33.

some sort of deal, and here it is in all its sordid detail, after years

:23:34.:23:38.

of trying to bring peace to the streets of Basra and failing, the

:23:39.:23:43.

British Army and MI6 ended up talking to a jailed militia

:23:44.:23:47.

commander in a cell on the outskirts of Basra.

:23:48.:23:53.

In mid-2007 after operations to hit the Shia militia and is, the dish

:23:54.:24:02.

military tried a new tack, opening up discussions with a senior

:24:03.:24:07.

commander they had arrested two years before. In the Chilcot Report

:24:08.:24:08.

the prisoner is called Jam1. They came up with a trial deal.

:24:09.:24:31.

British arrest operations would stop, it couple of British military

:24:32.:24:35.

prisoners would be released and JAM1 would demonstrate his ability to

:24:36.:24:40.

deliver a reduction in violence. The secretive talks came at an Aqua

:24:41.:24:45.

time, just as the British military wanted to hand Basra over to Iraqi

:24:46.:24:50.

forces and pull back to outside the city. -- awkward time. The Americans

:24:51.:24:55.

had spent the summer doing the opposite, surging forces and

:24:56.:24:58.

re-entering many areas. But the British wanted out. The security

:24:59.:25:03.

situation was difficult for us. Every move outside our bases

:25:04.:25:07.

required detailed planning and was high risk. I thought we were having

:25:08.:25:14.

limited effect on improving the security situation in Basra. 90% of

:25:15.:25:20.

the violence was directed against us. Politically there was no contact

:25:21.:25:27.

between us and the local provincial government. Coalition sponsored

:25:28.:25:36.

reconstruction had almost ceased. An MOD civil servant wrote that pulling

:25:37.:25:38.

out of Basra city created... The British toe had started to roll

:25:39.:25:52.

over the deals with debt captive, JAM1, from one month to the next.

:25:53.:25:58.

Each time releasing more Iraqi military prisoners. One MoD civil

:25:59.:26:01.

servant told the Defence Secretary...

:26:02.:26:19.

Covered by their deal, the British pulled out of their main downtown

:26:20.:26:25.

Basra base early in September. The Americans were seething and accused

:26:26.:26:31.

the British of leaving Iraqis to the mercy of the militias, a charge one

:26:32.:26:36.

Chilcot witness rejected. Yes, I think it is unfair. As we heard from

:26:37.:26:41.

the general, we consolidated at the airport as part of a planned and

:26:42.:26:47.

coherent transition from coalition lead to Iraqi lead for

:26:48.:26:55.

responsibility for security. All agreed with the approach and the

:26:56.:27:01.

timings. I think it is unfair. A joint intelligence committee report

:27:02.:27:04.

showed a steep fall in attacks on British forces as a result of the

:27:05.:27:09.

deal and speculated about a broader deal with the militias. Their

:27:10.:27:15.

prisoner, JAM1, asked to be on the next wave of prisoner releases. Time

:27:16.:27:22.

was running out. By the end of 2007, JAM1, who the Chilcot Report doesn't

:27:23.:27:29.

name, but we know to have been... Was released. In the last months

:27:30.:27:36.

violence picked up again. It reached a peak in March 2008 when Iraqi

:27:37.:27:41.

forces engaged in a full-scale battle. For some days the British

:27:42.:27:45.

hung back at the airport and American advisers went into Basra to

:27:46.:27:50.

help restore the situation. It all added to the sense of an ignominious

:27:51.:27:52.

end to the mission. It will take years for the full

:27:53.:27:55.

impact of the Chilcot Report into the Iraq war to be

:27:56.:27:59.

properly measured. Yesterday, as the man at its heart

:28:00.:28:01.

responded to its publication, it took mere moments for talk

:28:02.:28:05.

to turn to the demeanour and even They are, though, subjects

:28:06.:28:08.

which have long exercised Once a close friend of the former

:28:09.:28:13.

Prime Minister, it's fair to say they'd fallen out by the time Harris

:28:14.:28:17.

published his 2010 novel, The Ghost, featuring

:28:18.:28:20.

a thinly-disguised Blair facing In this film, Robert Harris

:28:21.:28:23.

considers his former I first met Tony Blair in 1992, just

:28:24.:28:42.

before John Major beat Neil Kinnock in that general election. My

:28:43.:28:46.

overwhelming impression, I had never met him before, he was then the

:28:47.:28:50.

Labour employment spokesman and I was a columnist on the Sunday Times.

:28:51.:28:54.

He was above all refreshingly normal and he always talked as if he was

:28:55.:28:58.

separate from politics in a funny way. He empathised with somebody

:28:59.:29:03.

outside politics and he would say, I don't know why I'm doing this. We

:29:04.:29:06.

don't seem to be going anywhere. I don't know why just don't give it

:29:07.:29:12.

all up and go back to being a barrister and spend more time with

:29:13.:29:18.

my wife and kids. One can't underestimate the importance of that

:29:19.:29:22.

quality in Tony Blair, and what made in 1997 election possible. I was

:29:23.:29:31.

with him in his constituency home in his sitting room, standing with him

:29:32.:29:38.

at 10pm on election night when the election poll was first revealed and

:29:39.:29:42.

David Dimbleby said we predict it will be the Labour Party with a

:29:43.:29:46.

majority of 146. Extraordinary, nobody had forecast that. I remember

:29:47.:29:51.

saying to him, how do you feel, because I had to write it up. He

:29:52.:29:56.

said, I feel nothing, really. I'm just ready to get onto the next

:29:57.:30:01.

thing. When I first arrived at his home in Sedgefield it was the

:30:02.:30:05.

ordinary policemen on the door, but when I left, and it was clear he

:30:06.:30:10.

would be Prime Minister, there were five or six men with machine guns

:30:11.:30:13.

patrolling the gardens. From that time onwards I guess he never lived

:30:14.:30:20.

a normal life again. I remember going to dinner at Chequers in the

:30:21.:30:24.

summer after he was elected Prime Minister. Really almost the first

:30:25.:30:32.

warning sign I got was that they were discussing a cabinet meeting,

:30:33.:30:37.

and Roy Jenkins was there. In the 70s or 60s when he was a cabinet

:30:38.:30:42.

minister, they had two hours on a Tuesday and two hours on Thursday.

:30:43.:30:46.

Tony Blair said they wouldn't do that, just 45 minutes once per week.

:30:47.:30:54.

Ireland but Jenkins looking at him, and I looked at Roy, and it was the

:30:55.:30:58.

first moment where we thought, it will be a very personal, one-man

:30:59.:31:03.

government. -- I remember. He often wore make-up, even when not in a

:31:04.:31:08.

television studio. I don't know why, maybe it appealed to him, that sense

:31:09.:31:13.

of always being gay performer. You don't pray together for example? No,

:31:14.:31:20.

we don't pray together, Jeremy. Religious faith is very important

:31:21.:31:27.

for him. He developed a very, good and evil point of view of the world.

:31:28.:31:31.

When I saw he had written to George Bush, I am with you whatever, it has

:31:32.:31:37.

the biblical connotation, I will be with you even to the end. And so, I

:31:38.:31:45.

think you can see their this sort of very personalised, for want of a

:31:46.:31:52.

better word, MSI and it kind of view of politics. -- Messianic view of

:31:53.:32:02.

politics. As things went wrong, he developed a kind of masochism

:32:03.:32:08.

strategy that reached its full flowering yesterday with the

:32:09.:32:10.

publication of the Chilcot Report. That was almost like Christ nailed

:32:11.:32:16.

to the cross. With Tony Blair you can never be quite sure where the

:32:17.:32:20.

performance ends and the private man begins. I felt there there was

:32:21.:32:26.

perhaps a mixture of the two and he was playing Christ on the cross, but

:32:27.:32:33.

also in a way, he is in anguish, and he has morphed into this strange

:32:34.:32:40.

figure that is not any longer quite of this world. It's said that all

:32:41.:32:46.

prime ministers go mad after a time. And certainly Margaret Thatcher

:32:47.:32:52.

began to behave erratically. But I don't think any has gone quite as

:32:53.:32:58.

strange, I'm afraid, as Tony Blair, simply because he started out so

:32:59.:33:00.

ordinary to begin with. David Cameron - remember him?

:33:01.:33:06.

- didn't make much of it, and Alistair Campbell famously

:33:07.:33:11.

forbade Tony Blair to speak of his own faith in public, boldly

:33:12.:33:13.

stating, "We don't do God." But the next Prime Minister

:33:14.:33:16.

definitely does. Both contenders are

:33:17.:33:18.

practising Christians. Theresa May is a vicar's daughter

:33:19.:33:19.

and Andrea Leadsom today declined to deny that she believed

:33:20.:33:22.

the Almighty had ever On the other side of the Atlantic,

:33:23.:33:24.

Christianity and right-wing politics often seem to combine to create

:33:25.:33:31.

homophobic rhetoric and ugly scenes So, could we see more of that

:33:32.:33:34.

over here, or perhaps, instead, a kinder, more

:33:35.:33:37.

morally upright frame for politics, influenced

:33:38.:33:40.

by the Christian religion? David Grossman has been

:33:41.:33:43.

considering the leadership One of 5.4 FM in London and across

:33:44.:34:05.

the UK and Digital radio. David Cameron once famously described his

:34:06.:34:09.

own Christian faith as rather like the reception of the London radio

:34:10.:34:14.

station Magic FM in the Chiltern Hills, it fades in and out, he said.

:34:15.:34:20.

But for a large number of the current crop of Conservative MPs

:34:21.:34:25.

their faith is constant and informs their politics. It is central to

:34:26.:34:30.

their political lives. What's more large number of those who contested

:34:31.:34:33.

the conservatively to ship this time say they are active Christians. The

:34:34.:34:39.

question is, is this just a coincidence or has something

:34:40.:34:43.

happened to the Conservative Party and its relationship with God and

:34:44.:34:50.

church? There was, and I was part of it, an influential organisation

:34:51.:34:54.

still active in the party today called the conservative Christian

:34:55.:34:59.

Fellowship. Over a long period it recruited churchgoers, went to

:35:00.:35:02.

churches and said get involved with politics. There may be an element of

:35:03.:35:08.

that work coming to fruition but that work was certainly done before

:35:09.:35:13.

people like Theresa May applied to be party members. Front runner

:35:14.:35:17.

Theresa May is a vicar's daughter and says her faith is active and

:35:18.:35:23.

deep. I think the point is that it is part of me. Part of who I am and

:35:24.:35:28.

how I approach things. I think it's right that we don't flaunt these

:35:29.:35:33.

things in British politics. But it is a part of me, it is there and it

:35:34.:35:38.

obviously helps to frame my thinking and my approach. The other

:35:39.:35:44.

contenders still in the race, Andrea Leadsom, has come to faith more

:35:45.:35:48.

recently and seems more enthusiastic about discussing it. Ace I always

:35:49.:35:55.

tried to ensure that I am doing what I think God would want me to do. I

:35:56.:36:00.

don't mean that in the sense that I am not responsible for what I am

:36:01.:36:04.

doing but try to keep in mind that God is there and guiding my hands,

:36:05.:36:10.

and helping me. Andrea Leadsom is part of the all-party Christians in

:36:11.:36:14.

Parliament group who meet to pray and study the Bible together. The

:36:15.:36:19.

chairman of the group says Christian conservatives in particular have had

:36:20.:36:23.

an image problem. Frankly over the last couple of decades Christians on

:36:24.:36:28.

the right, we have not helped ourselves by pinpointing a couple of

:36:29.:36:32.

issues and sometimes using the language. I think we are learning a

:36:33.:36:36.

lot but that is not the way forward. It doesn't express the love of the

:36:37.:36:41.

God we seek to follow. We've got to get over that. I don't blame people

:36:42.:36:46.

for thinking we are hung up on one or two issues. It was the case a few

:36:47.:36:51.

years ago. I hope increasingly it is not the case. Yet those issues,

:36:52.:37:01.

abortion and particularly gay marriage are important to many party

:37:02.:37:03.

activists who will be picking the next Prime Minister. David Cameron

:37:04.:37:06.

drew criticism from his grasp modes legislating for gay marriage about

:37:07.:37:09.

it being in the party manifesto. Today Andrea Leadsom said she would

:37:10.:37:16.

have preferred the law not to be changed. I would have preferred

:37:17.:37:20.

civil partnerships to be available to heterosexual and to gay couples

:37:21.:37:24.

and four marriage to have remained as a Christian service that was her

:37:25.:37:32.

men and women who wanted to commit in the eyes of God. But crucially

:37:33.:37:38.

Andrea Leadsom isn't proposing to change the law back. It seems we are

:37:39.:37:41.

a long way from the kind of religious rights are active in

:37:42.:37:42.

American politics. Well, to discuss this and the wider

:37:43.:37:45.

leadership race I'm joined by Conservative peer and commentator

:37:46.:37:47.

Danny Finkelstein, Guardian columnist Zoe Williams

:37:48.:37:49.

and Tim Montgomerie of the Times. And also the star of the film that

:37:50.:38:02.

we just saw! Is religion having a resurgence in the Conservative

:38:03.:38:08.

Party? I don't know but I welcome its overall influence. If you look

:38:09.:38:11.

at Theresa May and some of the flagship reforms she has pioneered

:38:12.:38:16.

against human trafficking, changing the stop and search laws that

:38:17.:38:22.

discriminated and targeted minority communities particularly in London,

:38:23.:38:26.

I think that sort of moral purpose... The Conservatives used to

:38:27.:38:30.

talk about economic issues and it was more up like a party of

:38:31.:38:32.

accountancy focus. I think what some of the Christians in the

:38:33.:38:52.

party have brought in is not an American right style of politics but

:38:53.:38:54.

it is a concern for bigger moral issues and I think it is overall

:38:55.:38:57.

very good. Andrea Leadsom and are interested in tackling the problems

:38:58.:38:59.

of young children, she wants much more spending on early intervention.

:39:00.:39:01.

They could not hold these views unless they went to church? No axed

:39:02.:39:06.

amuck sometimes I think there is coverage of the party claiming that

:39:07.:39:12.

they are only interested in gay rights or abortion, whereas if you

:39:13.:39:16.

go to a sermon in a church it is more likely to be on social justice

:39:17.:39:20.

and concern for the poor and we are seeing those Christians coming to

:39:21.:39:23.

the front of the party when they go week in, week out to cure about

:39:24.:39:29.

those issues in churches. Zoe, are you joining your hands in prayer? I

:39:30.:39:36.

am an atheist, all religions are equally ridiculous to me and I think

:39:37.:39:40.

the place of religion in politics is to create an authoritarian frame

:39:41.:39:44.

where one person establishes that authority over another, whether

:39:45.:39:46.

because they are heterosexual or think of themselves as more moral,

:39:47.:39:52.

that's equally problematic. And the weird thing is that Christians and

:39:53.:39:57.

politics are obsessed with sets. It's all about, sexuality and

:39:58.:40:02.

abortion. If they were more into equality, Jesus's big thing, we

:40:03.:40:06.

could talk. I don't keep abreast of major religions and maybe honesty is

:40:07.:40:11.

not a big thing any more yet I don't take either of these women seriously

:40:12.:40:16.

as people of faith when they are not honest. Leadsom all day long has

:40:17.:40:21.

been embellishing her CV and her achievements and her role in the

:40:22.:40:25.

financial sector. She insists she has done nothing of the sort. She

:40:26.:40:30.

called herself an investment manager when she was an age are at the time.

:40:31.:40:35.

She is not an honest person, I think. Bat she was in human

:40:36.:40:39.

resources at the time. So to take her as an honest voice in Christian

:40:40.:40:48.

politics is strange. Is it not the problem that if a politician can

:40:49.:40:52.

say, God told me to do it, then all bets are off? It is a bizarre

:40:53.:41:04.

metropolitan... To which by the way, I belong, idea that people who are

:41:05.:41:09.

Christian and outlandish. I am Jewish and I have never experienced

:41:10.:41:12.

Christianity in the Conservative Party as an oppressive force. I

:41:13.:41:20.

think Tim is correct. What has happened which is increased

:41:21.:41:23.

Christian activism in the party in the last 15 years has gone alongside

:41:24.:41:29.

increased social liberalism. Those two things have coexisted. I think

:41:30.:41:32.

we should not try to look into people's souls and tell them...

:41:33.:41:39.

Let's look entirely at the surface. Because on the surface it is the

:41:40.:41:44.

gender of the two leading candidates that the editors find most

:41:45.:41:49.

interesting. Zoe, do you dream of a day where we would not even notice

:41:50.:41:53.

that both candidates are women? That they will be a long time coming.

:41:54.:41:59.

It's extraordinary that the Conservatives should deliver an

:42:00.:42:03.

all-female short list, having ridiculed... There was an

:42:04.:42:08.

interesting tweet which I disagreed with which was the reason that

:42:09.:42:12.

conservatives are so good at women is that they don't obsess about

:42:13.:42:16.

identity politics like the left too. I don't agree. This has occurred

:42:17.:42:21.

acres of a bloodbath, a public school stitch up and then they all

:42:22.:42:29.

turned on each other, like Lord Of The Flies. And so happened that the

:42:30.:42:33.

only two people left all women. It's a triumph of deregulated free-market

:42:34.:42:37.

politics that yields the result is that the left-wingers would love to

:42:38.:42:43.

see. This is not proof of anything. No. The reason that the Labour

:42:44.:42:52.

Party, the left, boastful and saw women is because they thought women

:42:53.:42:57.

would vote Conservative. And for a long period of history the

:42:58.:42:59.

Conservative Party has done women are better than men. But it has

:43:00.:43:04.

stopped doing that and what many modernisers have wanted to achieved

:43:05.:43:10.

is that it should do that again. Two things, this is an encouraging

:43:11.:43:13.

development, secondly, only a small one. It comes despite the fact that

:43:14.:43:18.

we are still a long way from equality. Because these women did

:43:19.:43:23.

not come through all women short lists, they had to fight for seats.

:43:24.:43:31.

They became much better politicians because they had to overcome

:43:32.:43:35.

obstacles, sometimes more so, than the men face. Whereas the women who

:43:36.:43:39.

have come through the Labour Party haven't had that same element of

:43:40.:43:42.

political gorilla warfare that businesses are read to win these

:43:43.:43:51.

seats. For example? The Labour have all women short lists. Give an

:43:52.:43:55.

example of a rubbish Labour woman who would not have won a Tory seat.

:43:56.:44:01.

You haven't had a woman he'd still whereas the Tory party has a stream

:44:02.:44:05.

of women coming through. You don't seriously think these two women are

:44:06.:44:10.

the best politicians in the Conservative Party? I think Theresa

:44:11.:44:14.

May is incredibly impressive as a politician. You were backing Michael

:44:15.:44:22.

Gove at the weekend. I backed Boris Johnson committee would have been my

:44:23.:44:29.

choice. Go for the hat-trick, who will you back next? And that we will

:44:30.:44:33.

have a two-month contest because I have no idea what Theresa May thinks

:44:34.:44:37.

about, for example, Seve Javid and his idea of borrowing... Were not

:44:38.:44:47.

some of the Labour women suggesting that at the last general election?

:44:48.:44:51.

They was adjusting borrowing on every front! -- Sajid Javid. It's

:44:52.:44:59.

exactly the same, it just came from a Tory. I think the Conservative

:45:00.:45:06.

Party has a number of very good women and it is very good that we

:45:07.:45:11.

have to women in but that should not disguise the fact that the party and

:45:12.:45:15.

British politics is a long way from achieving equality in politics for

:45:16.:45:23.

women. The point is that not all women are feminists. Neither of

:45:24.:45:25.

these two will improve the lot of women. Thank you all very much. That

:45:26.:45:32.

is all that we have time for. Good night.

:45:33.:45:43.

Hello, not much changing over the next few days, more rain and some

:45:44.:45:51.

sunshine. Heavy rain overnight will clear from

:45:52.:45:53.

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