08/07/2016 Newsnight


Kirsty Wark looks at the Dallas police shootings, the Tata deal and Labour's Trident review. Plus Lord Tebbit on comparisons between Thatcher, May and Leadsom.

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Are the Dallas police killings the latest manifestation


of a racial divide in America, which is getting worse, not better?


As unease grows across America, the city's police have started


The suspect said he was upset at white people.


The suspect stated he wanted to kill white people,


Tonight, live from Dallas, the mother of an unarmed young man


shot by Dallas police in 2013, and a minister who spoke


at the protest before last night's shootings and the Chair


of the National Black Police Association.


ANNOUNCER: Big welcome for Jeremy Corbyn.


Also tonight, will the Labour leader be happy with the results


Jeremy Corbyn has campaigned all his adult life for unilateral


nuclear disarmament, but Newsnight has learned that


a Labour defence review leaves the door open for the possible


retention of nuclear weapons by a future Labour government.


Norman? Send in the Chancellor. Yes leader.


The next Prime Minister is being viewed through the prism


of the Iron Lady, so what's the verdict


I find I'm driven inevitably to support Andrea Leadsom, despite her


lack of experience. And on Artsnight - Bowie,


Bedlam and the great outdoors. Maria Balshaw of The Whitworth


in Manchester on the The murder of five police officers


in Dallas during a protest sparked by the killing of two


African American men by police in Minnesota and Louisiana,


has compounded the twin problems of guns and racial tension that


are besetting America. President Obama said that the police


deaths were a wrenching reminder of the sacrifices the police make,


and before the shootings, he had expressed solidarity


with the protesters after the most Obama has said repeatedly


that his failure to pass what he called "common sense gun


safety laws" is the greatest But perhaps too, his failure to turn


into reality the now seemingly impossible dream


of a "post-racial" America. We'll hear the story


of the day in a moment. But first, joining us from Dallas,


is Malik Aziz, who is a Dallas police officer and also chair


of the National Black Police First tonight, can you tell me, what


is the atmosphere in Dallas today? I can tell you from a couple of


perspectives. Our hearts are very heavy here in Dallas. Our


condolences, thoughts and prayers are going down to the five officers


that were lost here last night. But the atmosphere is very sombre. The


outreach of love and support from citizens here, and from our friends


around the world and across the United States, they have given us so


much love to prop us up at such a traumatic time and a time of need.


So the atmosphere is very sombre. In my 27 years in law enforcement I


have never had a day like this where I have felt this way, the worst day


of my career, and many others who have been here way longer than I


have. Of the wounded, are any office is critical, or does it look like


they will all pull through? I believe, and we pray, that the worst


has passed, and we will not lose another officer. That's what we are


praying. I think we will make it over that hump. With the love and


support and prayers of people around the world, I think we can do that.


It's still tragic to lose five of the most talented officers who were


very courageous. I would want your viewers to know that in the face of


danger, when people were running away, our job and responsibility,


our call to duty caused those officers to run into harm's way.


This mad coward who decided to take the lives of some of our best and


finest. You talk about a gunman in the singular. Earlier there were


more suspects. Have you settled that this was certainly a man acting


alone now? The Dallas police have been very thorough. We believe we


have one of the best investigative entities in the nation and across


the world. They have taken, through great pain, they have turned over


every stone, looked under every rock and in every crevice, and we believe


when the chief police comes out to make a statement, we are sure he


confirm it was a loan madman acting alone, on himself. But we act with


due diligence, and if we make an arrest and detain anyone, it's for


the betterment of the city, for a safer environment in where we live,


work and play. We'll get to the bottom of it. We want to make sure


that all that happened was that he was alone, and we will not stop


until we find out everything we need to know. In a moment we will speak


to Collette Flanagan, one of the founders of Mothers Against Police


Brutality. Her son was shot by police in 2013. I understand you


have changed your policing model in Dallas. What has changed? Under


chief Brown we have always had a commitment to community engagement.


Many people have a belief that police across the world is


monolithic. It's 800,000 police here, and 18,000 police departments.


Dallas is just one of them. We are not without our troubles and errors.


We are not without some form of challenge or barrier. Unfortunately


we can't do everything 100%, but we strive to. There have been things


along the way. But community policing and community engagement,


every chief has expanded on that to make it better. I believe our


current chief, David Brown, has done an exceptional job in compound in


this and making it better and in gauging with the community. That


takes growth, a partnership, and police and community working


together. -- engaging with the community. Sometimes we might


disagree, but we do not want to stand still. We have to do is put


our best foot forward. My condolences go out to the families


whose sons and daughters here and across the nation have been killed


in officer involved shootings. We would not have hearts or compassion


if we did not say that. We have to understand that in the Dallas police


we strive for a more professional model. But we are not without our


faults. Thank you very much for joining us.


Well, here's Secunder Karmani on the how the day's event's unfolded.


It started as one more protest against yet more police shootings of


black men in America. Go, go! It descended into terror as shots rang


out. Get back! Protesters ran in fear for their lives. This seemed a


coordinated attack. And it had a clear target, the police. Just


started shooting, all the police, I saw them bending over. There were


five or six cops all getting shot down. A total of five officers were


killed and seven others were injured. Here you see the desperate


efforts by some to care for their wounded colleagues. One of the


gunman fires at officers from behind a pillar. Moments later in seems to


graphic to show, he shoots a policeman at point-blank range. Two


suspects were arrested following a police chase, and a third was


detained elsewhere in the city. Another, who had been holed up in a


car park with a stand-off with police was killed after they


detonated a bomb they sent in with a robot. He has been named locally as


Micah Johnson, a former US Army reserve. Before being killed he


spoke to police negotiators about his motivation. The suspect said he


was upset about black lives matter. He said he was upset about the


recent police shootings. The suspect said he was upset at white people.


The suspect stated he wanted to kill white people, especially white


officers. He was trying to get out his ID, his wallet out his pocket,


and he let the officer know that he was... He had a firearm but was


reaching for his wallet. And the officer just shot him in his arm.


This is one of the shocking police shootings he was referring to. On


Wednesday, a woman in Minnesota broadcast live on Facebook moments


after her boyfriend was shot by police. Oh my God, please don't tell


me he's dead. Please don't tell me my brief and just went like that.


Yes, I will keep my hands where they are. The video caused outrage.


Despite her boyfriend's injuries, the woman is handcuffed and detained


but continues to stream live. Her boyfriend's death was the 507th at


the hands of police in America this year. 123 of whom were black.


Earlier this week a man in Louisiana was also shot by police, despite


apparently being held down. The publicised spate of police killings


by black men, many recorded on camera beginning in 2014 lead to a


newly energised black rights movement. Now some armed groups have


gone completely legally bringing weapons to protests, they say in


order to protect themselves. This is the Newton gun club in Dallas,


filmed earlier this year for a BBC documentary. They were at the


protest last night but say they were not connected to the shooting at


all. Dallas is grieving tonight. The question is, our events there the


beginning of more violence? Most say no, but race elections will be


affected. What I feel has changed in America in the relationship between


police and the African-American community, I feel like it's made


things worse. Part of the reason why the police chief in Dallas kept


saying, we need to find a way to come together and end divisiveness,


is because this adds to divisiveness. Because this shooter


happened to the African-American, people won't look at this as being


one horrible individual who did a terrible thing, it will become an


indictment on the Black Lives Matter movement, and people will accuse the


movement of doing it, when amusement had nothing to do with this


individual. For America's law enforcement, this has been the sing


single largest loss of life since 9/11. It feeds into issues of race


and gun control, both issues America has long grappled with.


Joining me now from downtown Dallas is Reverend Michael Waters,


who spoke at yesterday's protest and witnessed the shootings.


And Collette Flanagan, a founder of Mothers Against Police Brutality,


whose own son was shot dead by Dallas police


Good evening to both of you. I wonder if you heard our reporter


there, Michael, talking about the possible deterioration in race


relations. I wonder what your job has been like today as a minister.


Part of my job today has been to paint a picture of what transpired


last night in totality. What began as a beautiful movement for Justice,


representative of all ethnicities, genders and background, once it had


been dismissed was met with violence by somebody who was not a


participant at a gathering. I wanted to share with the world that it was


a beautiful night, a just night, a night of peace and collaboration


between police officers and those coming for the rally and for the


march. I want to let the world know we are grieving and hurting even


more so than when we came together last night. Collette Flanagan, I


know you were not actually at the demonstration last night, but as a


founder of Mothers Against Police Brutality, let me take you back to


the events of Minnesota and Louisiana and say that they must


bring terrible reminders of your own son's death.


I am sorry, I could not understand the last part of that. I said people


were out in protest last night because of the recent killings in


Louisiana and Minnesota. They must have brought back memories of your


own son's death. Absolutely. To lose a child is devastating, especially


when you lose a child to police brutality. My thoughts were with the


families that lost their children. Yes, it raises lots of emotions.


Tell me, in your view, is there the same level of Justice in America now


for black members of the American community and white members? Is the


level of justice the same, as far as you are concerned? Absolutely not.


We know that a black man, executed or killed more than white


counterparts by policemen. There are statistics that prove that. For


instance, in Dallas alone, there have been over 60 families that have


lost children through police brutality in the last ten years. The


last time a policeman was indicted for shooting an unarmed and mentally


ill person in Dallas was 1973, when Richard Nixon was president. There


is definitely an injustice with senseless police killings in Dallas.


It is the untold story that is waiting to be told. Michael, I


wonder what your view is on the disparity of justice. This is a


historical disparity and it covers the totality of the African-


American experience. There is a wealth disparity, a health discount


that is not the disparity, an educational disparity and a justice


disparity. All of this adds up and oftentimes comes to boiling points,


such as BC in America today. We have never fully address the issue of


America's greatest and original saying, the issue of racism and how


it has manifested itself throughout the totality of our society. I


suggest you would think that was compounded by the lack of gun


control. Well, we know that a black man carrying a gun is oftentimes


treated differently than a white man ( a gun. It causes you to question


the validity of that law. -- carrying. Are the rights extended


for all or for some? Time and again, we have borne the very painful


witness that many of the laws in this country are not all but


constructed for some. I want to put it to you that Barack Obama has said


his great frustration is his failure to have dealt with guns in America.


Do you believe it is a failure of his? I am sorry, I could not hear


the last part. Do you believe that Barack Obama believes that he has


failed to deal with guns in America? It has been one of his big failures,


he says. Absolutely. That is a huge problem in America. We have not


figured out how to exercise our second amendment with keeping


everyone's Civil Liberties and civil rights intact. Just like in police


departments, we have to have data on who is getting guns and who should


not have guns. We have to have data, how many people have been killed by


policemen. We have 18,000 police also is. We live in a nation where


we can tell you how money people have blue eyes but we have no


database to tell you how many people have been killed by policemen. We


have to have gun control and police brutality and registration and


writing legislation for police brutality. We needed on a federal


level. Thank you both for joining us tonight. Thank you.


In just over a week's time David Cameron is expected to call


a vote on the renewal of Britain's nuclear deterrent, and when he does


it will put Jeremy Corbyn, himself ardently anti-Trident,


He will be in collision, not only with many Labour


MPs, but also with some of the trade unions.


And, as our Political Editor Nick Watt reveals,


the much-vaunted Labour Review on Nuclear Weapons, spearheaded


by Emily Thornberry, may not be going to go his way either.


In a month's time, Jeremy Corbyn will be marking the 71st anniversary


of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. Last year, at the height of Corbyn-


mania during the Labour leadership contest, he came to the Washington


Memorial in the Central London Square to highlight his lifelong


opposition to nuclear weapons. That is why we are going to be here,


every year, for as long as it takes to bring about our dream, our


collective dream, the world free of nuclear weapons. Thank you very


much. Many Labour members who voted for Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour


leadership contest felt that his presence, like the Hiroshima


memorial, and the language used in the rally, guaranteed and no ifs, no


buts approach to unilateral disarmament. Newsnight has learned


that the Labour defence review under his leadership will leave the door


open to a continuing UK nuclear deterrent. I understand that the


review into the future of the UK passed back nuclear weapons system


is still a work in progress and will need to be refreshed after the EU


referendum result. It has at its heart five tests a future Labour


government would evaluate to decide whether to support continuing


nuclear deterrent. The five tests ask whether the nuclear deterrent


would make a demonstrable contribution to the friends of the


UK, whether it would represent value for money, have an impact on jobs


and development, whether it would make a contribution to multilateral


disarmament and stand the test of time in the face of new


technologies. Newsnight understands that Jeremy Corbyn believes that the


report could provide a middle way between outright disarmament and


maintaining a full-scale nuclear weapons system. Under this thinking,


the UK could fulfil its new treaty obligations to take active steps


towards disarmament by allowing Trident to run its course or by


reducing the number of submarines and warheads. I know CNC supporters


have huge respect for Jeremy Corbyn and they know his personal


commitment. -- CND. They will appreciate the challenges he has


faced in bringing the rest of his parliamentary party with him put I


do think there will be disappointed in a defensively that raises more


questions than it answers. It means you cannot look at the Labour Party


led by Jeremy Corbyn and be sure it will be standing for unilateral


nuclear disarmament, which is what he promised. One long-standing


Labour ally in the campaign for nuclear disarmament is relaxed about


the tests in a bid to abandon the nuclear deterrent. I have my own


view about the tests. People, not only CND members, that people who


look objectively at the situation Britain is in its requirements for


defence, the economic resources it has available, my view is that


people would be inclined to think it was not good value for money. A


halfway house option which could see a Labour government under Jeremy


Corbyn retaining a reduced programme as a first step towards his lifelong


goal of ridding Britain of its nuclear weapons would naturally be


unacceptable to CND. I think there are very compelling reasons why we


do not need to have nuclear weapons. They are unusable, they are weapons


of mass destruction, they are very expensive. They do not meet our


security needs. Having less of them, OK, maybe that is a step forward.


Still we have less of something we do not need. Really we have to have


nothing of what we do not need. Labour supporters of the nuclear


deterrent believe the entire defence review is redundant anyway. I do not


see how all of these studies take the argument forward at all. If the


potential future Prime Minister has already decided he will never use


these weapons, he does not believe in nuclear deterrence. You may as


well not have any nuclear weapons at all. Until that fundamental


conundrum is resolved, I think the study probably does not add up to a


row of beans. In a few weeks' time, Jeremy Corbyn is expected to retrace


his steps to the Hiroshima memorial with the burden of leadership and


the need to broker an agreement in his divided party. His language


issue is likely to be less clear-cut.


Tata Steel has postponed plans to sell some of its UK operations -


According to the Business Secretary the decision by the UK to leave


the EU has added a fresh layer of uncertainty for


However Tata also said they are in early talks


with Thyssen Krupp, a big European steel manufacturer


about the possibility of a joint venture.


I'm joined by our business editor, Helen Thomas.


Helen, remind us of how we got here. This has been dragging on for three


long months. Tata Steel said it wanted to sell its UK business. It


was making considerable losses. What they are saying now is they want to


sell some parts of it. Certain businesses in Hartlepool and


Yorkshire. They are talking to a big German company about the joint


venture. Now, the vote to leave the EU added a whole layer of extra


questions about this business. I am told the sales process had ground to


a halt. The bits that Tata steel got just came at too high a cost to the


company and they decided to go down this all turn to fruit. What does


this mean for the workforce? -- all turn it if route. The workforce has


little clarity today, as yesterday. What I'm confident of is that Tata


is doing everything it can, we are providing all


the support we can. I'm actually encouraged by this news


today that they are talking to a partner and thinking


about forming this joint venture because I think having another


option is just the kind of news In a narrow sense, this is good


news. Tata has not walked away from this raises some other questions. It


is widely thought by analyst investors that the German company


would rather get out of European steel-making altogether and focus on


other countries. They have been very vocal about the need for


consolidation on European steel. They say it is too big for the end


demand. That suggests that any combination could still mean


cost-cutting, still mean job losses. The aim would be to create a bigger,


more profitable company that ultimately would be easier to sell.


I think this is progress in a small way but there are obstacles to doing


this deal and I have been told tonight that separating, or


overhauling, the pension fund attached to the Tata steel business


is a prerequisite. And the Government has two figure that out.


The new Prime Minister of the United Kingdom


is going to be a women, that much is clear.


To judge by the newspaper headlines she'll be measured against Margaret


Now newspaper headlines are by nature reductive, but really?


Is it because she'll be taking on the European Union OR,


is it because the Conservatives, despite John Major, William Hague,


Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Howard and David Cameron still can't see


past Margaret Thatcher, or imagine another female model?


Well, this evening we spoke to Lord Tebbit, who was one


of Mrs Thatcher's closest allies in government and one


of the most assiduous keepers of the Thatcherite flame.


What does he make of the comparisons?


Andrea Leadsom is more of an unknown quantity.


She's relatively inexperienced as a politician and as a minister


but she seems to have about her qualities,


some of the qualities, which Thatcher had.


Thatcher was, of course, marked by being Middle England,


middle-class, shopkeeper's daughter, devout nonconformist Christian,


Leadsom has a couple of those advantages at any rate.


I find that I'm driven inevitably to support Andrea Leadsom,


She will have a lot of good people round about her,


not fellow politicians alone, but the civil service.


From my time in government, I have the civil service in high regard.


Lord Tebbitt had less complimentary words


I don't see the fact that Theresa May has been in one


department for a long time is particularly relevant.


What would be more relevant would be if she had been


If the police were firmly on the side of the Government,


and if we had got immigration down to the target which she was


But we're way, way, way away from that.


Norman Tebbit there with his views on the current state


An extraordinary headline in the Times. Being a mother gives me the


edge on Theresa May. Generally I feel being a man means you have very


real stake in the future of the country, a tangible state. Andrea


Leadsom has responded saying, truly appalling and the exact opposite of


what I said. I am disgusted is what she said. Now, straight to Arts


night. London, Edinburgh, Bristol and York


all five for the price.


Kirsty Wark looks at the Dallas police shootings, the Tata deal and Labour's Trident review - which could disappoint Corbyn. Plus Lord Tebbit on comparisons between Thatcher, May and Leadsom.

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