08/07/2016 Newsnight


08/07/2016

Kirsty Wark looks at the Dallas police shootings, the Tata deal and Labour's Trident review. Plus Lord Tebbit on comparisons between Thatcher, May and Leadsom.


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Transcript


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Are the Dallas police killings the latest manifestation

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of a racial divide in America, which is getting worse, not better?

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As unease grows across America, the city's police have started

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The suspect said he was upset at white people.

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The suspect stated he wanted to kill white people,

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Tonight, live from Dallas, the mother of an unarmed young man

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shot by Dallas police in 2013, and a minister who spoke

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at the protest before last night's shootings and the Chair

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of the National Black Police Association.

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ANNOUNCER: Big welcome for Jeremy Corbyn.

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Also tonight, will the Labour leader be happy with the results

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Jeremy Corbyn has campaigned all his adult life for unilateral

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nuclear disarmament, but Newsnight has learned that

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a Labour defence review leaves the door open for the possible

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retention of nuclear weapons by a future Labour government.

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Norman? Send in the Chancellor. Yes leader.

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The next Prime Minister is being viewed through the prism

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of the Iron Lady, so what's the verdict

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I find I'm driven inevitably to support Andrea Leadsom, despite her

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lack of experience. And on Artsnight - Bowie,

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Bedlam and the great outdoors. Maria Balshaw of The Whitworth

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in Manchester on the The murder of five police officers

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in Dallas during a protest sparked by the killing of two

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African American men by police in Minnesota and Louisiana,

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has compounded the twin problems of guns and racial tension that

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are besetting America. President Obama said that the police

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deaths were a wrenching reminder of the sacrifices the police make,

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and before the shootings, he had expressed solidarity

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with the protesters after the most Obama has said repeatedly

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that his failure to pass what he called "common sense gun

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safety laws" is the greatest But perhaps too, his failure to turn

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into reality the now seemingly impossible dream

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of a "post-racial" America. We'll hear the story

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of the day in a moment. But first, joining us from Dallas,

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is Malik Aziz, who is a Dallas police officer and also chair

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of the National Black Police First tonight, can you tell me, what

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is the atmosphere in Dallas today? I can tell you from a couple of

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perspectives. Our hearts are very heavy here in Dallas. Our

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condolences, thoughts and prayers are going down to the five officers

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that were lost here last night. But the atmosphere is very sombre. The

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outreach of love and support from citizens here, and from our friends

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around the world and across the United States, they have given us so

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much love to prop us up at such a traumatic time and a time of need.

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So the atmosphere is very sombre. In my 27 years in law enforcement I

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have never had a day like this where I have felt this way, the worst day

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of my career, and many others who have been here way longer than I

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have. Of the wounded, are any office is critical, or does it look like

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they will all pull through? I believe, and we pray, that the worst

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has passed, and we will not lose another officer. That's what we are

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praying. I think we will make it over that hump. With the love and

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support and prayers of people around the world, I think we can do that.

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It's still tragic to lose five of the most talented officers who were

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very courageous. I would want your viewers to know that in the face of

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danger, when people were running away, our job and responsibility,

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our call to duty caused those officers to run into harm's way.

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This mad coward who decided to take the lives of some of our best and

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finest. You talk about a gunman in the singular. Earlier there were

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more suspects. Have you settled that this was certainly a man acting

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alone now? The Dallas police have been very thorough. We believe we

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have one of the best investigative entities in the nation and across

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the world. They have taken, through great pain, they have turned over

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every stone, looked under every rock and in every crevice, and we believe

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when the chief police comes out to make a statement, we are sure he

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confirm it was a loan madman acting alone, on himself. But we act with

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due diligence, and if we make an arrest and detain anyone, it's for

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the betterment of the city, for a safer environment in where we live,

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work and play. We'll get to the bottom of it. We want to make sure

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that all that happened was that he was alone, and we will not stop

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until we find out everything we need to know. In a moment we will speak

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to Collette Flanagan, one of the founders of Mothers Against Police

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Brutality. Her son was shot by police in 2013. I understand you

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have changed your policing model in Dallas. What has changed? Under

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chief Brown we have always had a commitment to community engagement.

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Many people have a belief that police across the world is

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monolithic. It's 800,000 police here, and 18,000 police departments.

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Dallas is just one of them. We are not without our troubles and errors.

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We are not without some form of challenge or barrier. Unfortunately

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we can't do everything 100%, but we strive to. There have been things

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along the way. But community policing and community engagement,

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every chief has expanded on that to make it better. I believe our

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current chief, David Brown, has done an exceptional job in compound in

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this and making it better and in gauging with the community. That

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takes growth, a partnership, and police and community working

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together. -- engaging with the community. Sometimes we might

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disagree, but we do not want to stand still. We have to do is put

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our best foot forward. My condolences go out to the families

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whose sons and daughters here and across the nation have been killed

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in officer involved shootings. We would not have hearts or compassion

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if we did not say that. We have to understand that in the Dallas police

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we strive for a more professional model. But we are not without our

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faults. Thank you very much for joining us.

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Well, here's Secunder Karmani on the how the day's event's unfolded.

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It started as one more protest against yet more police shootings of

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black men in America. Go, go! It descended into terror as shots rang

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out. Get back! Protesters ran in fear for their lives. This seemed a

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coordinated attack. And it had a clear target, the police. Just

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started shooting, all the police, I saw them bending over. There were

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five or six cops all getting shot down. A total of five officers were

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killed and seven others were injured. Here you see the desperate

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efforts by some to care for their wounded colleagues. One of the

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gunman fires at officers from behind a pillar. Moments later in seems to

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graphic to show, he shoots a policeman at point-blank range. Two

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suspects were arrested following a police chase, and a third was

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detained elsewhere in the city. Another, who had been holed up in a

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car park with a stand-off with police was killed after they

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detonated a bomb they sent in with a robot. He has been named locally as

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Micah Johnson, a former US Army reserve. Before being killed he

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spoke to police negotiators about his motivation. The suspect said he

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was upset about black lives matter. He said he was upset about the

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recent police shootings. The suspect said he was upset at white people.

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The suspect stated he wanted to kill white people, especially white

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officers. He was trying to get out his ID, his wallet out his pocket,

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and he let the officer know that he was... He had a firearm but was

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reaching for his wallet. And the officer just shot him in his arm.

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This is one of the shocking police shootings he was referring to. On

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Wednesday, a woman in Minnesota broadcast live on Facebook moments

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after her boyfriend was shot by police. Oh my God, please don't tell

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me he's dead. Please don't tell me my brief and just went like that.

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Yes, I will keep my hands where they are. The video caused outrage.

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Despite her boyfriend's injuries, the woman is handcuffed and detained

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but continues to stream live. Her boyfriend's death was the 507th at

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the hands of police in America this year. 123 of whom were black.

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Earlier this week a man in Louisiana was also shot by police, despite

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apparently being held down. The publicised spate of police killings

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by black men, many recorded on camera beginning in 2014 lead to a

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newly energised black rights movement. Now some armed groups have

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gone completely legally bringing weapons to protests, they say in

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order to protect themselves. This is the Newton gun club in Dallas,

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filmed earlier this year for a BBC documentary. They were at the

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protest last night but say they were not connected to the shooting at

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all. Dallas is grieving tonight. The question is, our events there the

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beginning of more violence? Most say no, but race elections will be

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affected. What I feel has changed in America in the relationship between

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police and the African-American community, I feel like it's made

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things worse. Part of the reason why the police chief in Dallas kept

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saying, we need to find a way to come together and end divisiveness,

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is because this adds to divisiveness. Because this shooter

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happened to the African-American, people won't look at this as being

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one horrible individual who did a terrible thing, it will become an

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indictment on the Black Lives Matter movement, and people will accuse the

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movement of doing it, when amusement had nothing to do with this

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individual. For America's law enforcement, this has been the sing

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single largest loss of life since 9/11. It feeds into issues of race

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and gun control, both issues America has long grappled with.

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Joining me now from downtown Dallas is Reverend Michael Waters,

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who spoke at yesterday's protest and witnessed the shootings.

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And Collette Flanagan, a founder of Mothers Against Police Brutality,

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whose own son was shot dead by Dallas police

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Good evening to both of you. I wonder if you heard our reporter

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there, Michael, talking about the possible deterioration in race

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relations. I wonder what your job has been like today as a minister.

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Part of my job today has been to paint a picture of what transpired

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last night in totality. What began as a beautiful movement for Justice,

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representative of all ethnicities, genders and background, once it had

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been dismissed was met with violence by somebody who was not a

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participant at a gathering. I wanted to share with the world that it was

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a beautiful night, a just night, a night of peace and collaboration

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between police officers and those coming for the rally and for the

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march. I want to let the world know we are grieving and hurting even

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more so than when we came together last night. Collette Flanagan, I

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know you were not actually at the demonstration last night, but as a

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founder of Mothers Against Police Brutality, let me take you back to

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the events of Minnesota and Louisiana and say that they must

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bring terrible reminders of your own son's death.

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I am sorry, I could not understand the last part of that. I said people

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were out in protest last night because of the recent killings in

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Louisiana and Minnesota. They must have brought back memories of your

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own son's death. Absolutely. To lose a child is devastating, especially

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when you lose a child to police brutality. My thoughts were with the

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families that lost their children. Yes, it raises lots of emotions.

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Tell me, in your view, is there the same level of Justice in America now

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for black members of the American community and white members? Is the

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level of justice the same, as far as you are concerned? Absolutely not.

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We know that a black man, executed or killed more than white

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counterparts by policemen. There are statistics that prove that. For

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instance, in Dallas alone, there have been over 60 families that have

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lost children through police brutality in the last ten years. The

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last time a policeman was indicted for shooting an unarmed and mentally

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ill person in Dallas was 1973, when Richard Nixon was president. There

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is definitely an injustice with senseless police killings in Dallas.

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It is the untold story that is waiting to be told. Michael, I

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wonder what your view is on the disparity of justice. This is a

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historical disparity and it covers the totality of the African-

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American experience. There is a wealth disparity, a health discount

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that is not the disparity, an educational disparity and a justice

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disparity. All of this adds up and oftentimes comes to boiling points,

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such as BC in America today. We have never fully address the issue of

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America's greatest and original saying, the issue of racism and how

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it has manifested itself throughout the totality of our society. I

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suggest you would think that was compounded by the lack of gun

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control. Well, we know that a black man carrying a gun is oftentimes

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treated differently than a white man ( a gun. It causes you to question

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the validity of that law. -- carrying. Are the rights extended

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for all or for some? Time and again, we have borne the very painful

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witness that many of the laws in this country are not all but

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constructed for some. I want to put it to you that Barack Obama has said

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his great frustration is his failure to have dealt with guns in America.

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Do you believe it is a failure of his? I am sorry, I could not hear

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the last part. Do you believe that Barack Obama believes that he has

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failed to deal with guns in America? It has been one of his big failures,

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he says. Absolutely. That is a huge problem in America. We have not

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figured out how to exercise our second amendment with keeping

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everyone's Civil Liberties and civil rights intact. Just like in police

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departments, we have to have data on who is getting guns and who should

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not have guns. We have to have data, how many people have been killed by

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policemen. We have 18,000 police also is. We live in a nation where

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we can tell you how money people have blue eyes but we have no

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database to tell you how many people have been killed by policemen. We

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have to have gun control and police brutality and registration and

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writing legislation for police brutality. We needed on a federal

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level. Thank you both for joining us tonight. Thank you.

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In just over a week's time David Cameron is expected to call

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a vote on the renewal of Britain's nuclear deterrent, and when he does

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it will put Jeremy Corbyn, himself ardently anti-Trident,

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He will be in collision, not only with many Labour

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MPs, but also with some of the trade unions.

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And, as our Political Editor Nick Watt reveals,

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the much-vaunted Labour Review on Nuclear Weapons, spearheaded

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by Emily Thornberry, may not be going to go his way either.

:19:54.:20:07.

In a month's time, Jeremy Corbyn will be marking the 71st anniversary

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of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. Last year, at the height of Corbyn-

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mania during the Labour leadership contest, he came to the Washington

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Memorial in the Central London Square to highlight his lifelong

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opposition to nuclear weapons. That is why we are going to be here,

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every year, for as long as it takes to bring about our dream, our

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collective dream, the world free of nuclear weapons. Thank you very

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much. Many Labour members who voted for Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour

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leadership contest felt that his presence, like the Hiroshima

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memorial, and the language used in the rally, guaranteed and no ifs, no

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buts approach to unilateral disarmament. Newsnight has learned

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that the Labour defence review under his leadership will leave the door

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open to a continuing UK nuclear deterrent. I understand that the

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review into the future of the UK passed back nuclear weapons system

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is still a work in progress and will need to be refreshed after the EU

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referendum result. It has at its heart five tests a future Labour

:21:22.:21:26.

government would evaluate to decide whether to support continuing

:21:27.:21:31.

nuclear deterrent. The five tests ask whether the nuclear deterrent

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would make a demonstrable contribution to the friends of the

:21:35.:21:37.

UK, whether it would represent value for money, have an impact on jobs

:21:38.:21:44.

and development, whether it would make a contribution to multilateral

:21:45.:21:50.

disarmament and stand the test of time in the face of new

:21:51.:21:54.

technologies. Newsnight understands that Jeremy Corbyn believes that the

:21:55.:21:59.

report could provide a middle way between outright disarmament and

:22:00.:22:02.

maintaining a full-scale nuclear weapons system. Under this thinking,

:22:03.:22:09.

the UK could fulfil its new treaty obligations to take active steps

:22:10.:22:12.

towards disarmament by allowing Trident to run its course or by

:22:13.:22:17.

reducing the number of submarines and warheads. I know CNC supporters

:22:18.:22:23.

have huge respect for Jeremy Corbyn and they know his personal

:22:24.:22:28.

commitment. -- CND. They will appreciate the challenges he has

:22:29.:22:32.

faced in bringing the rest of his parliamentary party with him put I

:22:33.:22:35.

do think there will be disappointed in a defensively that raises more

:22:36.:22:38.

questions than it answers. It means you cannot look at the Labour Party

:22:39.:22:44.

led by Jeremy Corbyn and be sure it will be standing for unilateral

:22:45.:22:46.

nuclear disarmament, which is what he promised. One long-standing

:22:47.:22:52.

Labour ally in the campaign for nuclear disarmament is relaxed about

:22:53.:22:59.

the tests in a bid to abandon the nuclear deterrent. I have my own

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view about the tests. People, not only CND members, that people who

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look objectively at the situation Britain is in its requirements for

:23:10.:23:15.

defence, the economic resources it has available, my view is that

:23:16.:23:20.

people would be inclined to think it was not good value for money. A

:23:21.:23:25.

halfway house option which could see a Labour government under Jeremy

:23:26.:23:30.

Corbyn retaining a reduced programme as a first step towards his lifelong

:23:31.:23:35.

goal of ridding Britain of its nuclear weapons would naturally be

:23:36.:23:41.

unacceptable to CND. I think there are very compelling reasons why we

:23:42.:23:46.

do not need to have nuclear weapons. They are unusable, they are weapons

:23:47.:23:50.

of mass destruction, they are very expensive. They do not meet our

:23:51.:23:56.

security needs. Having less of them, OK, maybe that is a step forward.

:23:57.:24:00.

Still we have less of something we do not need. Really we have to have

:24:01.:24:04.

nothing of what we do not need. Labour supporters of the nuclear

:24:05.:24:08.

deterrent believe the entire defence review is redundant anyway. I do not

:24:09.:24:14.

see how all of these studies take the argument forward at all. If the

:24:15.:24:20.

potential future Prime Minister has already decided he will never use

:24:21.:24:24.

these weapons, he does not believe in nuclear deterrence. You may as

:24:25.:24:29.

well not have any nuclear weapons at all. Until that fundamental

:24:30.:24:33.

conundrum is resolved, I think the study probably does not add up to a

:24:34.:24:39.

row of beans. In a few weeks' time, Jeremy Corbyn is expected to retrace

:24:40.:24:45.

his steps to the Hiroshima memorial with the burden of leadership and

:24:46.:24:49.

the need to broker an agreement in his divided party. His language

:24:50.:24:53.

issue is likely to be less clear-cut.

:24:54.:24:58.

Tata Steel has postponed plans to sell some of its UK operations -

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According to the Business Secretary the decision by the UK to leave

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the EU has added a fresh layer of uncertainty for

:25:06.:25:08.

However Tata also said they are in early talks

:25:09.:25:11.

with Thyssen Krupp, a big European steel manufacturer

:25:12.:25:13.

about the possibility of a joint venture.

:25:14.:25:14.

I'm joined by our business editor, Helen Thomas.

:25:15.:25:20.

Helen, remind us of how we got here. This has been dragging on for three

:25:21.:25:29.

long months. Tata Steel said it wanted to sell its UK business. It

:25:30.:25:34.

was making considerable losses. What they are saying now is they want to

:25:35.:25:40.

sell some parts of it. Certain businesses in Hartlepool and

:25:41.:25:44.

Yorkshire. They are talking to a big German company about the joint

:25:45.:25:48.

venture. Now, the vote to leave the EU added a whole layer of extra

:25:49.:25:56.

questions about this business. I am told the sales process had ground to

:25:57.:26:03.

a halt. The bits that Tata steel got just came at too high a cost to the

:26:04.:26:07.

company and they decided to go down this all turn to fruit. What does

:26:08.:26:15.

this mean for the workforce? -- all turn it if route. The workforce has

:26:16.:26:18.

little clarity today, as yesterday. What I'm confident of is that Tata

:26:19.:26:27.

is doing everything it can, we are providing all

:26:28.:26:30.

the support we can. I'm actually encouraged by this news

:26:31.:26:32.

today that they are talking to a partner and thinking

:26:33.:26:34.

about forming this joint venture because I think having another

:26:35.:26:37.

option is just the kind of news In a narrow sense, this is good

:26:38.:26:47.

news. Tata has not walked away from this raises some other questions. It

:26:48.:26:54.

is widely thought by analyst investors that the German company

:26:55.:26:58.

would rather get out of European steel-making altogether and focus on

:26:59.:27:01.

other countries. They have been very vocal about the need for

:27:02.:27:06.

consolidation on European steel. They say it is too big for the end

:27:07.:27:11.

demand. That suggests that any combination could still mean

:27:12.:27:16.

cost-cutting, still mean job losses. The aim would be to create a bigger,

:27:17.:27:21.

more profitable company that ultimately would be easier to sell.

:27:22.:27:27.

I think this is progress in a small way but there are obstacles to doing

:27:28.:27:32.

this deal and I have been told tonight that separating, or

:27:33.:27:36.

overhauling, the pension fund attached to the Tata steel business

:27:37.:27:41.

is a prerequisite. And the Government has two figure that out.

:27:42.:27:45.

The new Prime Minister of the United Kingdom

:27:46.:27:47.

is going to be a women, that much is clear.

:27:48.:27:50.

To judge by the newspaper headlines she'll be measured against Margaret

:27:51.:27:54.

Now newspaper headlines are by nature reductive, but really?

:27:55.:27:57.

Is it because she'll be taking on the European Union OR,

:27:58.:28:00.

is it because the Conservatives, despite John Major, William Hague,

:28:01.:28:02.

Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Howard and David Cameron still can't see

:28:03.:28:05.

past Margaret Thatcher, or imagine another female model?

:28:06.:28:07.

Well, this evening we spoke to Lord Tebbit, who was one

:28:08.:28:09.

of Mrs Thatcher's closest allies in government and one

:28:10.:28:12.

of the most assiduous keepers of the Thatcherite flame.

:28:13.:28:14.

What does he make of the comparisons?

:28:15.:28:19.

Andrea Leadsom is more of an unknown quantity.

:28:20.:28:23.

She's relatively inexperienced as a politician and as a minister

:28:24.:28:27.

but she seems to have about her qualities,

:28:28.:28:33.

some of the qualities, which Thatcher had.

:28:34.:28:36.

Thatcher was, of course, marked by being Middle England,

:28:37.:28:39.

middle-class, shopkeeper's daughter, devout nonconformist Christian,

:28:40.:28:46.

Leadsom has a couple of those advantages at any rate.

:28:47.:28:57.

I find that I'm driven inevitably to support Andrea Leadsom,

:28:58.:29:01.

She will have a lot of good people round about her,

:29:02.:29:08.

not fellow politicians alone, but the civil service.

:29:09.:29:13.

From my time in government, I have the civil service in high regard.

:29:14.:29:20.

Lord Tebbitt had less complimentary words

:29:21.:29:21.

I don't see the fact that Theresa May has been in one

:29:22.:29:28.

department for a long time is particularly relevant.

:29:29.:29:34.

What would be more relevant would be if she had been

:29:35.:29:36.

If the police were firmly on the side of the Government,

:29:37.:29:43.

and if we had got immigration down to the target which she was

:29:44.:29:48.

But we're way, way, way away from that.

:29:49.:30:04.

Norman Tebbit there with his views on the current state

:30:05.:30:06.

An extraordinary headline in the Times. Being a mother gives me the

:30:07.:30:17.

edge on Theresa May. Generally I feel being a man means you have very

:30:18.:30:22.

real stake in the future of the country, a tangible state. Andrea

:30:23.:30:26.

Leadsom has responded saying, truly appalling and the exact opposite of

:30:27.:30:30.

what I said. I am disgusted is what she said. Now, straight to Arts

:30:31.:30:37.

night. London, Edinburgh, Bristol and York

:30:38.:30:41.

all five for the price.

:30:42.:30:54.

Kirsty Wark looks at the Dallas police shootings, the Tata deal and Labour's Trident review - which could disappoint Corbyn. Plus Lord Tebbit on comparisons between Thatcher, May and Leadsom.