13/07/2016 Newsnight


Evan Davis discusses Theresa May as prime minister and the new cabinet, including the appointment of Boris Johnson as foreign secretary and the absence of George Osbourne.

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THERESA MAY: We are living through an important moment


We face a time of great national change.


If you're just managing, I want to address you directly.


When we take the big calls, we'll think not of the


We'll listen not to the mighty but to you.


We'll prioritise not the wealthy, but you.


We won't entrench the advantages of the fortunate few.


And we will make Britain a country that works not for a privileged few,


# But I'll still reach out to the top


There was a changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace today.


The man who won an election a year ago met the Queen this afternoon,


Then as he was driven out, Theresa May was driven in to be


For those that have found the last three weeks


disconcertingly turbulent, the familiar routine


of the cars coming and going, that peaceful transfer of power,


We are surely in the early stages of a national adventure.


For a start, Boris Johnson is Foreign Secretary.


Plus, two other Brexiteers have the job of delivering Brexit.


And Theresa May made clear beyond that, there'll be


To kick us off I'm here with Newsnight's own cabinet -


our policy editor Chris Cook, diplomatic editor Mark Urban,


business editor Helen Thomas and political editor Nick Watt.


Nick, let's start with the new appointments.


Yes, if Margaret Thatcher was not returning, Theresa May was not for


waiting. Within one hour of arriving in Downing Street, she was launching


her new cabinet. She didn't want such a prominent face from the


failed side of the referendum, so George Osborne was out. There are


Brexiteer Limerick in charge of taking a side of the European Union,


Boris Johnson, big senior post for him, David Davis was a tough nut as


John Major's Europe minister and he will be in charge of the


nitty-gritty negotiations are getting is out, and Liam Fox, former


Defence Secretary is going to be in charge of international trade


negotiating new deals outside the EU. We can see pictures of them


tripping up Downing Street to hear their positions. We have seen the


three Brexiteers. Three men, all Brexiteers, but there was balance in


the Cabinet as well. Yes, another key theme is unity, seasonal to big


posts the two remainders, Amber Rudd as Home Secretary, Theresa May has a


high regard for her, and early job she had was aristocracy adviser for


the film Forwarding Is In A Funeral. Helen, the economics, Philip


Hammond, what do we know about him? We saw this huge change. He looks


like a choice designed to reassure. There is a hint of continuity, he


worked with George Osborne shadowing the Treasury in opposition, he is


known as a fiscal hawk so perhaps his inclination will be to keep a


tight grip on the purse strings, but he is taking over in very different


times. The economy and the fiscal position, Theresa May was describing


quite an ambitious agenda. The economy may not be working to her


favour for all of that. Absolutely, that is the big unknown. Nobody


really knows what the uncertainty around Brexit is going to mean the


economy, what damage is being done or maybe done. Philip Hammond has


this balancing act. On the one hand he has a weakening economy which


will make the target harder, but he has a boss who wants less austerity,


so how he manages that balancing act will be the question. A big question


for the rest of this Parliament. And foreign policy, Mark. Boris Johnson,


Foreign Secretary, who would have thought it? Clearly if you look at


Twitter, people find that rather gag-tastic. There could be some


dodgy missions going across the desk of MI6. Remember he had an


unsuccessful trip abroad to Israel and Palestine when he was the mayor.


The best he can do is to be an ambassador and go out and sell the


country. We need to talk about the Boris style of diplomacy, and he has


history. I can read you a couple of quotes, on the Queen and


Commonwealth, it supplies with regular clearing -- cheering crowds


of flag-waving piggy ninnies. Just a couple of months ago, his limerick


about the president of Turkey. There was a young fellow from Ankara... He


won a prize in the Spectator magazine for that poetry. Are people


outside of Britain,, will they take him seriously? They will have to.


The real thing to look for here is the way the Foreign Office itself is


being eclipsed now, for a long time Downing Street has taken on the


important stuff, and in this Brexit moment, we can look at this trio of


people Theresa May has put together. Boris will only be doing a small


part of it. David Davis, tough negotiator, Liam Fox, and if it is


proving really hard to disentangle freedom of movement from free trade


access, or other free trade deals are not rolling in, who better to


point that out than those three experts, Fox, Johnson and Davis?


Let's talk about Brexit, Chris. We know a little bit about what David


Davis' vision is. This week he published an article about his


vision, and I'm not a trade expert. I think whoever wrote that isn't a


trade expert either. There are some fairly fundamental problems with it,


his idea we could put together trade deals that give us something better


than they -- than the EU in one or to years, that is ambitious. He is


very dismissive of what economists call nontariff barriers, the admin


required to get stuff over a border can be more important than the


tariff. He is also very nonchalant about services. He talks a lot about


what would happen if Germany blocked our car exports, not a lot about law


or advertising or things where we make a lot of money. We have talked


about some of the themes. Let's get on with the rest of the programme.


Theresa May pitched herself as a continuity candidate,


but from the moment she arrived in Downing Street, it looked


In particular, some radical words on how Government is now


Here's Nick's take on this historic day.


Her Majesty is well versed in the rituals of the transfer of power in


her kingdom. After seven decades on the throne.


But rarely can the Queen have seen such a ruthless display of prime


ministerial authority so soon after her new First Minister took leave of


her in Buckingham Palace. We believe in a union not just between the


nations of the United Kingdom, but between all of our citizens,


everyone of us, whoever we are, and wherever we are from. That means


fighting against the burning injustice, that if you are born poor


you will die on average nine years earlier than others, if you are


black, you are treated more harshly by the Criminal Justice Act and the


nephew white, if you are white, working-class boy, you are less


likely than anybody else in to go to university,. In her first speech


outside her new home, she lavished praise on David Cameron, but left no


one in any doubt that the personal political credo of this grammar


school girl would be different to her Tony and predecessor. A decade


ago, David Cameron George Osborne said to themselves and private how


remarkable it was the speed with which they took over the


Conservative Party. But they also said to themselves that they could


lose that within a nanosecond. This evening they learned how true that


prediction was when the new Prime Minister marched into Downing Street


and said that the era of the privileged few running number ten


was over, and then she unceremoniously ended George


Osborne's Cabinet career. Few in Westminster were mourning the demise


of George Osborne as the Tory party woke up on this balmy summers


evening to the new regime. Politics is brutal, it really is, and not


just the senior cabinet ministers and ministers, but all of their


teams who have been working extraordinarily hard, suddenly


nothing. I am a select committee chair, and they are about the only


people who still have a job, because we were elected by parliament, but


it is a brutal business. The senior Cabinet appointments were the most


eye-catching. Theresa May's allies were keen to point to her message to


the nation on how she will govern in a different manner. Frankly, a


priority for Theresa May is always that of those who are disadvantaged.


She is the daughter of a vicar, I think her late father must have


instilled in her this issue of looking after those who are


disadvantaged, making sure the state supports those who need help, and I


see from that speech, my interpretation is going to be a


powerful agenda going forward. I was the future once!


LAUGHTER David Cameron left Parliament on a


warm note. He knows that his vision to keep Britain in a reformed EU has


failed. Theresa May would like her Premiership to be remembered for


great social reforms, but she knows it will be defined by her success or


failure in negotiating Britain's exit from the EU. Supporters who did


a different view to the new Prime Minister in the referendum say she


could deliver a deal. Theresa May was a Remain. I am an Out. But there


is no longer a difference between the camps. She has been clear that


we are not going back on that vote but we will make it work for


Britain. As Kennedy put it, we must not negotiate in fear but neither


must we fear to negotiate. I think Theresa has set out a stall that she


intends us to negotiate as a strong country in a positive spirit. Nigel


Farage doesn't represent this country. We will be a responsible


European neighbour and nation contributing to the Globe and to


Europe, but just not within that political structure. Theresa May is


a rare political beast, a senior figure who is barely known even


after a decade at the top. Friends say the country will soon warmed to


their new Prime Minister. Where on earth does this


leave the Conservatives? United around the slogan Brexit


means Brexit, but what does United around the vision


for the disadvantaged? United around the socially liberal


agenda, for same-sex Let's talk to two people


from different wings of the Conservative Party -


the MP Heidi Allen, and Peter Lilley, who was a Cabinet


minister in the Thatcher Good evening to you both. Heidi


Diallo, are you happy with what you heard? It feels like the


Conservatives reborn. I couldn't believe what I was hearing from


Theresa May. It feels like everything I said in my maiden


speech, and this is a new era, it is brilliant. You had been in the


referendum campaign, a bit rude about Boris Johnson. He is now


suddenly back. In a different role. I wasn't rude about him, I just felt


that his intentions were not actually around the country and


whether Brexit was the right thing, just about whether he wanted to be


leader, and I didn't feel he was the right man, so I am delighted. Are


you on board, Peter Lilley? I was confiding in your earlier that I am


unusually euphoric. I don't know euphoria normally, but I feel we are


heading in the right direction, we can get on with it, and I think she


has created a structure which will enable us to speed up the process


far more than people are expecting. Let's come to Brexit in a minute.


When she spoke about the nasty party, back in 2002, many would say


she was really talking about the tone and the policies, some of which


were associated with you as the welfare and social security in the


90s. Are you happy that the journey the party has taken, through David


Cameron to the tone she struck today, you are completely happy with


that? Yes, very much so. I think we ought


to be a party whose focus is on those who can least help themselves.


We obviously want to let everybody fulfil their potential because,


unless they do, we won't be able to help those who can least help


themselves. We have to enable people to fulfil their potential so we have


the wealth and the ability to help those who are at the bottom of the


pile who have least opportunities. Can I take it that social


liberalism, same-sex marriage, that debate is over. You were against it


when the vote came up. It's done. Everybody seems to be accepting that


now. I hope so. What about the economic liberalism? We think of the


Conservatives as being deregulators. Today we were hearing workers'


rights are back on the agenda. You are comfortable with that? Is that


the party you joined? Why can't we do both? It is about finding the


right amount for the right context, isn't it? Saying that you are the


party that wants to overregulate everything, or under... The world


isn't like that now. We have to be flexible. I was so pleased to hear


Theresa May talking about some of the more difficult things for a


Conservative Party to get a hold on, but we have to do it. The journey


you described to Peter, yes, we have come through it. What we need to do


is convince the people that we have come through it. And that will be


harder but it is doable. We are all social liberals now. Are you not


still an economic liberal? Do you not fear that National Living Wage


at ?9, some of the talk about other stuff... You either had to have a


Minimum Income Guarantee or a minimum wage. We had a mixture of


the two, which is rather silly. Now we have moved to having a living


wage. That should be the basic protection for people in work. And I


think that is very acceptable. I never believed you could have


neither. Right. You are sounding all in harmony with everything you have


heard... That is very disappointing for TV, but it happens to be true.


That's fine. I'm trying to get clear where everybody is. Doesn't it show


how we had to get the right leader? Somebody who had been so neutral


that could do what we are experiencing now, bring both sides


together. I don't want to intrude, I don't want to poop the party you are


having. Let's talk about Brexit. The three Brexit leaders, Liam Fox,


Boris Johnson and David Davis, I don't know if they have the same


vision of Brexit. What is the minimum Brexit that means Brexit?


Well, it was about taking back control of our laws, money and our


borders. We have to do those things. I hear lots of discussion about


negotiation. There will have to be some ne gogs Asians. --


negotiations. What I hope she's created a structure, she's got David


Davis there, I hope she will lead the process in the way Ted Heath led


the opposite process. I hope David Davis will have that delegated power


from her so we can get it done quicker because the one danger we


face is uncertainty. The sooner we can have it done, the less


uncertainty. Philip Hammond suggested it would take six years?


That is one reason why he will be a much better Chancellor than Foreign


Secretary. I wonder putting those three to look after the process, is


that a reward for what they did in the referendum? Or is it, OK, guys,


nothing to do with me, it is yours to sort out? I think it's probably


70% the former and a tiny bit the latter. If you want something to be


done well you have to appoint people that believe in it. Theresa May


recognises her strengths in leadership and it is all about


having the right team. I wonder, Peter, if they don't get remotely


what they have written they are going to get... What have they


written? David Davis has written a big piece on what he is going to


achieve. If he doesn't get close to that, and there are people that are


sceptical, do we have to have another referendum on the deal that


emerges? No, it wouldn't depend on David Davis achieving what he's


written in one article. Right. The referendum result was clear. We have


to deliver it. There isn't too much doubt about that delivery. We also


have to go into any negotiations on trade, which will take place after


we have left. We have to go there with a hard-headed realisation that


if it's trading on WTO tariff terms, so be it, we don't want that. That


is the backstop? Only if you go into negotiations knowing that you can


take what they think is the worst they can impose on you, that you can


succeed. And then we will get a good deal for us, for Europe and for the


world. So much to pan out over the next few years. Thank you both very


much. Now, we need to talk


about economic policy. Can I be the first to label it


Theresa-nomics? But call it whatever you want,


we know a little of what it consists of, and the most striking paradox


about the transfer of power today, is that having voted to leave


the EU, with many arguing that we can Britain could be


liberated to become a kind of deregulated offshore enterprise


hub like Singapore or Hong Kong, we've appointed as Prime Minister


who seems keen on regulation, particularly the stuff


that makes us more Here's our business


editor, Helen Thomas. We are told that Brexit means


Brexit, so what does that mean? The UK somehow needs to dismantle its


relationship with the European Union, piece by piece, the rules


governing everything from trade in the economy, Labour, immigration,


environmental protection are likely to change. But how? One Brexit


blueprint, a regular feature of the campaign, takes its inspiration from


the glinting skyscrapers of Hong Kong or Singapore.


An open free trade economy shorn of the red tape and stifling


bureaucracy of the EU single market and with lower taxes and lighter


regulation for business. Indeed, George Osborne seemed to nod to this


with his post-vote pledge to cut corporation tax below 15%. But not


so fast. Maybe Singapore isn't the place for us. Theresa May this week


laid out a very different vision for Britain's business future. She was


still in campaigning mode before all the twists and turns that handed her


the keys to Number Ten, but she spoke about an economy that works


for everyone, that could involve constraints on executive pay, it


could mean a stronger Government hand in areas like competition


policy, or in foreign takeovers. It could also, she said, mean putting


not just consumers on companies' boards, but employees as well.


An industrial strategy that takes a sceptical look at foreign takeovers


has a distinctly European flavour. And putting workers or their


representatives on to companies' boards is a page straight out of


German corporate governance 101. She's identified a real problem. I


don't think she's got the right solution, the right solution is to


put more responsibility on investment institutions. It doesn't


link in with what George Osborne has been saying about the economy, so we


don't have a joined up Government strategy towards the economy and


towards business. We don't know much about Theresa May's economic


thinking. She's never been in the Treasury. She's never been in the


Department of Business. So we are going to have to learn these things


over the next few weeks. I hope she gets on with it. The paradox is that


those who thought they knew what Brexit model they were signing up to


may find that the finished article looks rather different. We are


headed for Brexit. Destination unknown.


I'm joined now by the Brexit-supporting


economist Gerard Lyons, and by Remainer Mariana Mazzucato


whose book Rethinking Capitalism addresses many of the financial


issues that will confront the new Prime Minister.


And first, Rupert Harrison, who worked as George


How much of Osborne-nomics do you think survives the transition? Apart


from dealing with Brexit and the relationship with the EU, which is


going to overwhelm economic policy making for the next few years, other


than that, Theresa May, there is going to be a change of emphasis and


tone. It will be continuity, largely. It will be struggling still


with public finances that are not going to be ideal and if you think


about the big, some of the big themes of economic policy of the


last six years, that's included taxes on the low-paid, the National


Living Wage, binding shareholder votes on executive pay, tax


avoidance, tax evasion. It will be more continuity. Have you spoken to


George tonight? No. Do you think he will look back on his time at Number


11 with satisfaction? He wanted a different result in the referendum.


Overall, I think so. The judgment must be he inherited an economy at


one of the darkest moments in our economic history. I remember Mervyn


King before 2010 said, whoever inherited the situation at the


upcoming election would have to take such difficult decisions that they


would be out of power for a generation. Then we had unemployment


fall to 5%, the highest employment rate in our history, GDP growth has


been the same as the US over the last six years, so he could be


satisfied with that part of it. Mariana Mazzucato, how big a change,


if you take Theresa May at her word, at what she said in speeches, how


big a change is that? If you take her three big points, which are


productivity, lagging wages and the need to reform executive pay, and


the need for - she said industrial policy - Vince Cable did, the


current minister has not said that word. He is running the Ministry as


an enterprise zone, I think, which is about reducing different types of


impediments for business. If she goes ahead with those three things,


really tackling productivity, tackling executive pay and


reigniting a vision around industrial policy and innovation


policy, that will require a massive change, a change within the


Treasury, but especially she will need absolutely a new minister in


this because, currently, they are not, if you want, running a show


that is trying to get long-term investment in this country. Hammond,


I found very interesting, he continued to say that financial


services is one of our key industries. That depends on what you


finance to do. Finance is not serving the real economy. Nothing


has been done on that. If she wants to have proper innovation policy, we


will need proper kind of finance. Do you think what we heard today,


Gerard Lyons, a big shift or maybe it is just words? There will be a


significant shift. There is some continuity in the fact that the


Conservatives were elected on the manifesto last year, so they still


have to... What do you mean, they junked the fiscal stuff? On fiscal


stuff, they do need... There will be some continuity. I was going on to


say, there needs to be a significant shift. The previous Chancellor


became far too tactical. We need to see more investment, more


innovation, and more infrastructure spending. The UK Government can


borrow at the lowest rate ever. It's been lower now than it was in recent


years, so that creates a great opportunity. Monetary policy has in


the past and is still now a big shock absorber for the economy, so


that is still there. Fiscal policy needs to move on. We had Brexit


strategy. There are three pots we need to look at. Hold the Brexit one


for a minute. We have a fantastic opportunity to reposition the UK in


the changing growing global economy, despite the near term uncertainty,


there are lots of positives and it is about positioning ourselves with


India, China... I just want... I just want to put one of your points.


It sounds like that the gist of these two guys is, this is a


complete turnaround because there was too much austerity, he


underinvested, borrowing was cheap, this is ripping up George Osborne's


policies? Theresa May will be thrilled to hear this. Look, there


is going to be a change of tone. As I say, the elephant in the room is


Brexit renegotiating our trade relations with the rest of the room.


Outside that, it will be continuity. Puts curbs on executive pay... She


talked about tax avoidance, tax evasion. She is a new Prime


Minister. She wants to put a new tone, new emphasis. As I say,


outside of the core issues... Industrial strategy, it is true that


that phrase has not been used by Sajid Javid. If she was to do what


she said, that would require a revolution. I don't think it will be


possible. Brexit, as David Cameron has said, will occupy the Civil


Service for the next decade. It is a complete waste of time. The


investment you are talking about in research and development, the


investment in human capital formation, by the way, are not going


to happen. 80 billion euros of research money is what we no longer


have access to. Quite on the contrary. We often


overlook the fact that we gave Brussels most of the money in the


first place. Let's not have the Brexit argument yet. What Rupert was


saying was very important, it is about enabling the environment at


the past, and it is about creating an enabling environment again. But


don't you think there has been a shift in emphasis towards a more


continental model with more regulation, the exact opposite of


what you Brexiteers were selling to us, which was a kind of


deregulated... That is how you would like it to be. That is how you were


telling us it was going to be. The benefit is trying to pick Best


practice from around the world, but we need to do what suits the UK


economy, and it does come back to the Brexit issue. That was very much


about three pots, to need to be ticked, the sovereignty and having


an immigration policy, probably a points-based immigration system, and


we don't need to be in the single market. As Peter Lilley was saying,


it is about positioning the UK outside the single market with an


eye on the Kontinen and the global economy. The key change... For what


kind of investment? We continue to have lagging investment in this


country, we have very low business spending. What actually died


investment in the long-term, not the short term cheap investment that


just reducing taxes... It is not money, it is capacity in key things


like rail and road. And we will come back... What kind of infrastructure?


Green infrastructure, that is what we want. I'm so sorry, we will have


to come back. There is so much, we will have to disentangle this and


put it into ten discussions over the next five years!


One thing that is painfully obvious is how divided the country has


been over the last few months, not to mention


Suddenly, Theresa May has risen to the top,


powered by a remarkable sense of unity.


It's not just the goodwill that's shown to a new occupant


of Downing Street; she has not stabbed anyone, stamped


on their head or questioned their ability to govern on account


By universal acclaim, she was the grown-up


The Tory Party thought that, and most of those to the left


of the Tory Party thought that too, at least in comparison


But it is a thin crust of unity, atop a torrid overheated soup.


We'll talk more on that, but first, the issue of immigration proved one


of the most divisive in the referendum.


Katie Razzall went to Birmingham, Britain's second largest city,


to find out what people on all sides of the immigration divide feel


Political faces of the past are on show in Birmingham at a time when


modern politics has been in turmoil. It was Tony Blair who opened the


door to EU migration on a grand scale. As Home Secretary, our new


Prime Minister tried and failed to get the numbers down. She had a


tough line on immigration before, and I think that will continue now.


She was the Home Secretary that introduced vans that offered illegal


immigrant is an easy pass home, so I think it is fair to say with some of


her tough rules, some of them being controversial, we are only going to


continue to go down that road, and coming from a migrant background, it


does make you wonder whether we are as welcome here in the country as we


have been previously. I don't think she is somebody who from her own


personal Per Spett of values immigration, and whether we like it


or not, we are of immigrants. That is how some perceived Theresa May's


immigration stance. Her limits on non-EU migrants divided opinion, as


did her speech at last year's Conservative conference. When


immigration is too high, when the pace of change is too fast, it is


impossible to build a cohesive society. There is no doubt


immigration played a key role in the referendum. Almost all of the West


Midlands region voted leave, including multicultural Birmingham.


I met a restaurant and leave voter. So quickly it happened, it is


unbelievable. Mr Haque wants immigration restrictions cut to


allow more immigration Chip Kelly for chefs -- particularly the chess.


She has made it corrugated for us, and now she is the Prime Minister.


She will have to change. Across the West Midlands and beyond, hate


crimes rose after Brexit, like at this halal shop, firebombed in


Walsall. Theresa May has touted herself as a unifier of the country.


On a more local level, others are attempting unity. At Birmingham


social enterprise, they are creating a hate crimes toolkit. Theresa May


will have to do a lot more to persuade them of her unifying


credentials. I categorically don't believe that we can get behind a


leader that has not been democratically elected, she doesn't


have the mandate from the people. Some of the language we are hearing,


the statistics we see from her past policies and how she wants to move


forward well add to the divides and divisions, and the pain we are


feeling as a country, particularly around immigration, equality and


justice. I am not happy that this is the person who is supposed to


represent us in our time of need and bring us together, and unite us and


hope. But of course there are plenty who believe that our country will


stay divided if Me doesn't deliver on Brexit. In West Bromwich I met


activists determined to keep pushing the new PM forward, someone they


believed failed on immigration as Home Secretary. She says she is


tough on immigration, but her time in the Home Office hasn't proved


that. As a country, we should be able to choose who comes in and who


doesn't. So if she doesn't deliver that? I think it will be massive


around here. Definitely. I think everybody is jittery about it, she


is an unknown quantity, but that is the same with any Prime Minister.


Delivering Brexit will be Theresa May's most pressing concern, but she


will need to do it whilst uniting communities, not driving them apart.


Joining me in the studio now is the Times columnist


Matthew Parris, Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee, senior editor


of the Economist, Anne McElvoy, and down the line from East Sussex,


the former editor of the Telegraph and Thatcher


Good evening to you all. Let's start with the positives. What has been


good for the Tory party and about Theresa May? The good thing is she


is therein a relatively short time, and the blood-letting stopped quite


quickly, and it was considerable blood-letting. We have seen the


divisions intensified since the vote, and the fact that they were


able to stop this feud between the Brexiteers and gone over a kind of


middle ground leader who will deliver most of what the Brexiteers


want, but was Remain and has kept some prominent new remain as in the


Cabinet, that is the main thing. Are you happy today, Polly? You would


prefer Theresa May to Andrea Leadsom? Absolutely. I am impressed


with the ruthless speed with which they have affected this. The removal


van was there, he is gone, the next one in. The contrast with Labour is


so excruciating, it really is. I think what we always see is the


Tories know about power. They know what they are there for and how to


do it. But tanks on the Labour lawn, all of this blue collar Conservatism


that is the pitch, I don't know if you believe it will happen, but...


They are terribly good at that. Saint Francis of Assisi from


Margaret Thatcher, and think of Cameron's greenest government ever


and hugging would and huskies. We are on the positives! She did it


very well, I will say that for her, and we wait to see if it is real.


Are you feeling euphoric? She is excellent, she is the best leader


the Conservative Party could have on the circumstances, call her Theresa


May jar or Teresa Millburn. But it isn't really a very easy question,


the question is, can anyone do the job. That brings us to Charles. Can


any one do this job? It certainly has a decent chance of working, but


there are tensions in there. They can't yet be resolved. What it


essentially is is that Theresa May is a Remain leading a Brexit policy,


and while that can bring some sort of unity, it also makes you wonder


what is going on, because you can't really be a remain any more because


we are not going to remain, so we have to hear from Theresa day we


Brexit is a good thing, and she has to have a vision of why it is an


enormous thing, and I think there is a slight tendon set to see it as a


compartment. You put it all in one compartment and get on with the rest


of what is happening, but this is about becoming a free country again,


with massive consequences for what Parliament does, foreign policy,


trade, the environment, for the union possibly, so all of this has


to be expressed positively. So she has to pretend to be keen on it? I


think she has to be keen on it. If she is pretending, she will be found


out. Matthew, it is hard to see how decades of Tory divisions on our


relationship with Europe could be resolved by this. If anyone can do


it, she can. I agree with Charles, she has to be keen on it, she will


be. She has been given a job by the party, and that is to deliver the


best possible deal she can. The question is, how good a deal can she


deliver? I am a Marxist in this respect, there are terrible


underlying forces in history and economics, and she will face in 34


years in which the domestic economy, she will run out of money, and she


is running out of friends, Britain is running out of friends abroad. If


anybody can square this circle, she can do it, but can anybody? No Prime


Minister has ever arrived in office with us knowing so little about her.


No hustings, no electioneering, we know nothing about her economics.


She is a much better known quality than anyone else, we know the cut of


her jib, and in terms of wanting to remain, she was marginal. All awful


lot of people were on the margins of remain Brexit, and we talk about


this as if it were some kind of religious tribe who went to


extremes. That is what this Cabinet reshuffle is that she has done is


trying to reflect. I'm sure as Matthew and Charles were both


saying, feud tensions underlie this, and they are now rocketing through


both main parties. You describe Brexit as if it were a thing, a


known quantity. Nobody knows what it is, it is what anybody wants it to


be. Charles, do you trust Theresa May to deliver what the voters said


they wanted back on June the 23rd? And do we know what that is? I think


she will certainly try to do that, but I think she does have a big Rob.


What happened in the vote was that it was enormous popular rejection of


the view of almost everybody in charge of everything. And Mrs May


comes in as a representative of that defeated establishment. She is doing


a good job of trying to bring it all in together, and she is saying the


right sort of thing, but it is a fundamental problem that she is not


what people were asking for when they voted in the largest vote in


British history for anything. And Mrs May was against it, and she is


part of what they were rebelling against, so she has a lot of work to


do. Matthew? We know what people were asking for, they were asking


for things no one can deliver, and Mrs May can't deliver them. She will


do her best... Will the party falls apart again when she delivers, let's


say, Brexit -lite. She has gone about it in a canny way, she has


appointed the geldings rather than the stallions of Brexit, Boris and


Liam Fox and David Davis. They will do their best, but she will never


satisfy Charles Moore, she will never satisfy the ultra-in the


Conservative Party who would always believe that some marvellous deal


could have been done if only we had had the right leader. Boris wants to


have his cake and eat it. This is a pragmatic country, and the people


who concede the best, as Blair did and as Cameron did for a while,


people who somehow come through the middle, or they create the new


middle, that is what she has to do. I hope she can. I'm sure it is


difficult, but I don't believe the country is so polarised that there


isn't a way through. Labour could find it if they wanted to, and if


they don't, the Conservatives will. This country is in the midst of its


deepest, most serious crisis that Cameron has left us with that she


has to pick up the pieces from. She may be the best person on offer to


do that, but don't underestimate the Herculean task. Charles Moore? Polly


is right. One reason Cameron ultimately failed is like all the


politicians in the Western world at present who have failed to


understand how the world is changing in the light of the effect of the


credit crunch, we still haven't had a change politician coming to the


top, we haven't had a sat in this generation, we have had a crisis,


but we haven't had the response to the crisis, and Mrs May, very able


and sensible, she represents that establishment view rather than the


change. So I am not saying it can't happen, but it is a very big task,


but it has hardly yet been imagined. The analysis of what is wrong with


the world, really, and therefore the conference about how to put it


right. We have ten seconds. We can all make an analysis of what is


wrong with the world and what people want, but the question is is it


possible that a generation of British politicians can deliver what


people want? I don't think it is. But what if they analyse it right


rather than analysing it wrong? We will hit those constraints if


Michael is right, and Theresa May can pull us all together if he is


wrong. Well, that's enough historic


days for this month. No one died, but the biggest beast


in the department seems to have gone to the backbenches following his


colleague. It does seem to flash in front of your eyes. Good night.


TICKING. Hello. It has been another day of


sunshine and showers, the showers continuing through this evening and


overnight before dying away, and Thursday looks like the driest day


of the week for many of us.


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