14/07/2016 Newsnight

A new-look government, a new-look Whitehall,

a new message but many familiar faces, the same money troubles

Should we expect a decisive, radical, reforming government,

or one that's going to get stuck with Brexit?

Our priority will be to send out a very strong and clear message that

Britain will remain a very attractive place to invest,

to create jobs, to do business, and we will take whatever steps

we need to take to make sure that remains the case.

But at the French embassy tonight, the Foreign Secretary

was already experiencing life on the outside.

We'll look at what to expect from the new administration.

And what did Theresa May say to George Osborne as she let him go?

Our political editor has found out and it wasn't pretty.

And refugees' experiences told on BBC2.

So, has Europe managed to sort out its response?

For six years, Theresa May has been quietly sitting in the Cabinet.

She's avoided the plotting, mostly, and has presumably been

making private judgements about all her colleagues

Today, she's had the chance to form a government

of her own and her colleagues at last find out what she's been

Bad news for some, as they were dropped.

Good news for others, with fresh faces given a big

It nets out as a hugely different government.

We've become used to remarkably few personnel changes

over the last six years, so this is a shock to

And a bigger change than last year, when the coalition ended and the Lib

Here's our political editor Nick Watt.

Before we go into what it all means, just this extraordinary story

tonight that you have managed to get hold of about Theresa May and George

Osborne? Reds Downing Street were pretty clear yesterday that Rita Mae

had sacked George Osborne, he didn't resign and I've learned to like they

had a very frosty meaning -- meeting at Downing Street yesterday in which

trees may make pointed remarks to the outgoing Chancellor. She said he

had overpromised and under delivered and took issue with his surplus

target and said that has given them a nightmare, he could never deliver

it and perhaps it was a bit of a stunt as people said, to catch the

Labour Party. I understand to reason may was repeating what she had said

in a speech in Birmingham the day before where she had rear --

reiterated her pledge to been the surplus target and she said George

Osborne had not done enough to challenge deep economic reform and

she was going to do it. The reverberations from the sackings and

appointments are rebounding around Westminster still. We thought we

would take a look at how the new Prime Minister has gone about

forming her government. Not since Harold Macmillan's night

of the Long knives in 1962 have we so much ministerial blood flow along

Downing Street. Theresa May has reordered an entire government as

she responds to the twin instructions from the electorate.

Tate Britain out of the EU and change the ways of the governing

elite. As you waded through the blood, it was clear that the new

Prime Minister had three aims in mind. Number one, deliver Brexit

with a Nixon in China approach. Theresa May's appointment of a trio

of Brexiteer is to take charge of Britain's exit from the EU fulfils

her pledge to ensure the referendum winners run this process. Allies who

say that only arch Eurosceptics have a hope of success are drawing

parallels with the way in week the hardline Richard Nixon delivered a

breakthrough in US relations with China. The Prime Minister might also

be trying to create some space should the negotiations turn out to

be slightly more talent in. What the Prime Minister has done is said,

"OK, you have done the heavy lifting intellectually about this. Deliver

it for me in government". I think that because they are trusted,

deeply trusted by all Conservatives, both in parliament and in the

grassroots, to be true to their beliefs on that, that they are

actually in the best place to make the deals and perhaps the slight

compromises you have two, to deliver Brexit and deliver it for the

benefit of the British people. Number two, rewiring Whitehall. Not

since the era of Tony Blair, who loved to abolish and set up

government departments, have we seen such people Whitehall. For example,

the business, innovation and skills department is renamed, and its

headquarters houses some of the new bees. There is pain and delight in

equal measure as the very un-Thatcherite industrial strategy

makes a return and climate change is nowhere to be seen on the nameplate.

Number three, social reform in the spirit of Joe Chamberlain. In her

first statement outside number ten, the new Prime Minister delivered an

unmistakable message of change by making clear that she would tackle

burning injustices. This thinking owes much to her new Joint Chiefs of

Staff, Nick Timothy, who is the biographer of the great social

reformer, Joseph Chamberlain. Being from Stratford-upon-Avon, close to

Birmingham, with Joseph Chamberlain and his sons as well, I think that

is something of a role model to us all, the ability to devolve power

but also, to champion our cities and be a real champion for those on

National Living Wage, those hard-working families that I think

she keeps going back to. Theresa May will finalise her new government

over the coming days as she turns to the lower ministerial ranks. The

blood-letting is not yet over. Nick Watt, there.

While we've all been banging on about Europe

for the last six months, ordinary life has rumbled

on, but quite a number of domestic problems have been

The Theresa in-tray is piled high with things to be resolved.

Some prime ministers have the option of staying vague and drifting

Theresa May won't have that luxury. Her decisions will be made in high

definition. Theresa May's permission may well be remembered for good or

ill by how well the Brexit negotiations go. But on domestic

policy, she's not inheriting a blank piece of paper.

There are three important areas I would pick out and keep an eye on

Secondly, the roll-out of universal credit.

Secondly, the roll-out Thirdly, the NHS.

This economist explains how these issues have been

-- made more, get it by the effects of the vote on Brexit. The exchange

rate has fallen and the cost of importing things is going to be

higher. That will push up on inflation.

It will leave less money spare for people to spend

The second thing that's going to happen is GDP

growth is likely to slow and hiring decisions

potentially wage growth will be a little slower too.

Both of these things are actually quite bad for

the public finances because we need people to spend so that we can tax

This is a graph showing what markets expected

coming years before the Brexit vote, and this is after.

You can see more than a few years out that they are

look at the very left of the graph.

Inflation is now expected to be sharply higher.

This expert from a think tank on living standards

explains how this might be a problem for Damian Green, the new Work and

We've got wages growing at a pretty modest rate

We've also got a benefit freeze, which means benefits aren't going

anywhere, it's only working-age benefits over the next few years.

So relatively modest levels of inflation mean that for both

workers and those relying on benefits, in

work and out of work, their living standards

are likely to start to

flat-line again, or even maybe fall over the next few years.

One important issue that will affect this is the roll-out of the troubled

It was intended by this point to be helping 6 million people.

This plan to reform a range of working-age

Even before Brexit came along the Government was facing a

On the one hand, if it was able to implement

meant actually many working-age households would be losing out

We are about to start entering the territory

of postcode lottery, where

identical families in different parts of the country would have

different outcomes depending on whether they are on the old system

But if it doesn't work, then that is a hit to

the Treasury, because by moving from the old system

Treasury stands to save somewhere in the region of ?4 billion or so.

This analyst from the Nuffield Trust, a

health think tank, exclusively reveals to Newsnight her maths

suggest trouble ahead for Jeremy Hunt, who

NHS hospitals are really under a lot of pressure at the moment.

We know they are already missing a lot of their targets

And at the same time they have an underlying financial

That means it's costing them ?3.5 billion more to

treat the patients that they have coming in than they are actually

Look at emergency departments, where 95% of

attendances should be dealt with in four hours.

We met that target for bits of 2014, we flirted with it in

2015, but in 2016 we've been miles away.

So how big a task is it for the NHS to get back into budget for 2020?

First of all, hospitals will need to cut their costs every year by 3%.

Over recent years they've only managed to cut them by 2%

and the government's own efficiency review has found that 2% really

So hospitals are going to have to exceed that for the next three

In addition to that we are going to need to see a slowing in the rate

In recent years, the NHS does 3% more work a year.

We think we are going to need to see that slow down to around 2%.

There are schemes that cut NHS demand relatively painlessly,

for example, by putting doctors inside care homes.

That could mean some people get treated before their minor

But there are also other ways of cutting NHS

For example, we could just stop keeping up with some

All of those things would suppress demand

But would an electorate that has just voted, it thinks, for more

The problem is that it's the painful stuff that's certain to save money

short-term, and the hospital overshoot could reach

Brexit is not Theresa May's only problem.

A little memo therefore the new Prime Minister.

Before we digest all that, Chris is here with one small legacy

a letter from the PM's office released on the web.

It's all about the severance pay of special advisors.

It's a bit different to everything we have been talking about but

explain. So there's a process in white or called ministerial

direction. When civil servants think they are being asked to do something

they shouldn't be doing, for value for money grounds come usually, they

say to a minister, "We will do this but you have to put in writing you

have asked us to do it". David Cameron has asked the Cabinet Office

to pay extra severance pay to his own special advisers because he

feels sorry they have lost their jobs in a sudden shock over the last

month. So we don't know how this is going to be debated but the cost is

going to be, special advisers, who have got around ?750,000 in total...

About ten of them. Now they are going to get about ?1 million. It is

distributed unevenly, five figure sums for a Sahm, and four figures

for others, months of plays the issue. So they get a few months and

he wants them to get some extra months because it's been a rush?

Exactly and if you are as it servant who has perhaps the these civil

service redundancy scheme strewn down all been made redundant and

watched the Prime Minister saying, "That's very unfair, what these poor

chaps I know are getting", and intervening personally, this might

rankle a little. Thank you for joining us.

So, that's the old government's last gesture.

With me now are Jill Rutter from the Institute for Government,

Philippa Stroud, a former Conservative adviser who now sits

in the House of Lords, and Phil Collins who writes

So much to talk about them if you are not too depressed by listening

to Chris' previous peace. On white or, how big a radical reform of

white or have we seen? We are just adjusting it now. Two things have

been. Theresa May by Brexit. One issue, we said she would have a

secretary of state for Brexit and she's created that, seem to have

gone for the option of creating a new Brexit ministry. If I'd been

Cabinet Secretary, I'm not sure I would have advised that straightaway

but she's gone for that. She is beefing up international trade with

this new department with Liam Fox but we always had a rather odd thing

which was a non-ministerial apartment doing trade which had a

minister. That may be a growth of that with some people moving into

that. She has done some things she did not have to do. She has created

this new business, energy and industrial strategy department and

in doing so, abolished the EC, which was created by Gordon Brown for Ed

Miliband in 2008 and also moved skills which is one of the footballs

of Whitehall back to education and given it universities, too. Does

this distract people? Is it now they are going to spend six months

thinking about where their desk is rather than getting or can it be

done very smoothly? The departments affected will be distracted. It

takes some time to get going when you do things. You have got all

those bread-and-butter issues like where you are going to base people,

what you are going to pay them, things like that to sort out.

Generally our advice has been to think very carefully before you do

machinery of government changes and generally don't do them. There's

usually a better option. David Cameron took that advice, that was

one of the great things about his administration. You only want to do

it if you think there a long-term benefit.

Brexit potentially demands that. Phil Collins, how impressed are you

buy the ability of the new team to carry through Theresa May's

objectives? Well, on the threshold of Downing

Street Theresa May gave what I thought was a really impressive

speech, full of huge ambitions for improving the life chances of the

least well off, and that's incredibly difficult to do. Let's

pretend you weren't having to extricate Great Britain from the

European Union at the same time, the ambitions she set out are immense

and I worry about the candidates into microwaves forced up 22 people

in the Cabinet, slight second and third 11 feel about it, the other

thing linked to that is if you take out George Osborne, for good or ill,

he did some big things, pension liberalisation, Northern Powerhouse

and Living Wage Commission Michael Gove on education and in the early

days justice on prisons, they have energy and passion for reform and I

wonder if that energy will exist in the existing cabinet. Are you

worried about that, Philippa? I think Michael is a huge loss to the

government, personally. I would love to have seen him have a place. But

actually, I really like what she has done with the Department for

Education. Adding in universities, but also skills and apprenticeships,

and giving it to someone like Justine Greening, who is deeply

committed to social mobility for sub I've spoken to Justine over this one

numerous times. Do you think she's going to be strong? She needs to be

tough and be nice to the ones she needs to be nice to. She won't beat

up people but she is focused. Social mode is what she wants to do. It's

what she has actually wanted to do for the last few years. She's come

into this department really well thought through, and she has

literally, from cradle all the way up through university and onto the

skills agenda and the apprenticeship agenda, that is a social reformer's

dream package in all honesty. We wanted skills agenda at the DWP to

go with employment, but for her to have it there as well is fantastic.

All of that is good and I don't doubt the fine intentions, but it's

incredible hard to do. It's very hard to do in a time of plenty,

during the Blair government it was found difficult to make progress on

this and there was plenty of money sloshing around. When you have very

little money it's even more difficult. It's going to be very

hard, they are hostages to fortune in Theresa May's speech they are

huge. And you have a question of the European Union. I think she's been

quite clever on that. She said... Can I put you over there? I will put

you over there. Do you think a government can do more than one

thing at once? This is quite a big thing, leaving the European Union.

Can it deliver this whole reform agenda, industrial strategy,

quality, corporate governance, all of that and leave the European

Union? Or can a government only chew gum or walk, it can't do both at the

same time? Governments do lots of things, there is business as usual

as well as reform. The key restraint is the political capital the Prime

Minister has to deploy. When the question is, how much will she have

to deploy sorting out Europe, lots of this will be done ahead of a

mid-level, final deals are only done a head of government level. She has

somebody to do the heavy lifting. David Davis will do the heavy

lifting, whether he does it in the way she wants it done is critical,

whether -- that will be critical whether they bash heads together. As

she put the people in who she knows shares her agenda so she doesn't

have to do so much? I think that is where you see the bandwidth now. Are

you worried you won't get it all done? There is just a lot of stuff.

One moment, the comment about No 10 and big hitters, that's important.

One of the things she has done is cleared out of No 10 of all of its

special advisers, hence Chris's comments about special advisers.

Always a terrible mistake to do that, all of that memory and people

who know what you are doing on. It gives her the chance to bring in

people who are aligned with her agenda and genuinely want to do some

of the reform. They will take a year to learn. You asked me if I'm

worried, that I'm pleased about Justine and about Sajid Javid going

on at ACOG, really focused on building houses. That is one of the

things we absolutely need I think Liz Truss's appointment at Min of

Justice is important too. Michael was focused on the academisation of

prisons and you have somebody who has a strong education background.

If she chooses to she could come in and improve things. -- DCLG. If you

want to do lots of things on the domestic and social agenda isn't the

rule that you need money? The one thing she will not have, surely, is

oodles of money. They haven't got loads of money but that's not to say

you can't do things. Lots of prison reforms don't need lots of money so

if Liz Truss picks up the bat on from Michael Gove, which she might,

she is a reformer herself, there are things that can be done and there

are plans. There is lots on welfare that can save money if you look at

it. You cannot necessarily use money as an excuse because you haven't got

any. But it worries me. I think leaving the European Union is

several things at once, that's not just one thing, that is lots of

things. If the Government can do that in the next few years before

the election and nothing else it will already have been quite

successful. So I'm not sure it can even manage that, let alone these

other things. It partly depends on her style of government as well,

which we don't know yet. David Cameron was always very good at

almost being a chairman and letting his Secretary of State get on. She

is a good manager, people say. If she can achieve the chairmanship

role and work with her secretaries of state, she has the ability to

implement social reform. One of the things she doesn't have so many of

his civil servants, some people think that helps things move more

smoothly but Brexit will absorb a lot of the civil service's time and

effort, just mapping where Europe matters to us. We've been there for

40 years, it's a really big exercise. Quite a lot of these other

reforms require civil servants to do them. If the brightest and the best

are being creamed into the Brexit ministry it's going to reduce the

capacity of quite a lot of other places. It will be interesting to

see whether she goes slow on the pace of cuts to the civil service.

Thank you very much indeed, let's hope she is not watching and getting

depressed about the job she has got! Brexit Britain has certainly been

enjoying 15 minutes of fame, the world looking upon us

with a variety of reactions. Here's a little clip of the news

of his Cabinet appointment being given to a US State Department

spokesman last night. He is paid to diplomatically

suppress any inappropriate reflex. And his replacement

as Foreign Secretary has just been For our European colleagues,

the British situation raises all sorts of questions -

not always very welcome ones. And now they find themselves working

with a Foreign Secretary who has, over the years, treated

the EU with derision. A little earlier, I spoke

to the Lithuanian foreign What does he think of

Boris Johnson's past indiscretions, and will they make it difficult

to take him or British Frankly it depends how he will

present this stuff, or what has efforts to remedy what was

done. The German Foreign Minister,

Frank-Walter Steinmeier, called some of the things he said in the

referendum campaign irresponsible And it is true that Boris Johnson

has been a critic of Does that make it harder to work

with him, do you think? Many things I disagree

with what he said, But this was the campaign

in the UK and now So now he has to prove

everything that was said by him, by all of those Brexit leaders,

this is just his task. There has been one issue

which has been the There are many Lithuanians,

as you know, living in the UK. And uncertainty over

their status for How quickly do you think

we can sort that one out? I don't think days or weeks,

probably not. But this is a very

important part of the It's not only with regard

to Lithuanians, or Poles or other EU citizens

who live in the UK. But also, let me

mention UK citizens who So we have to negotiate

decently, and also smoothly, in order to make sure

that they should feel more certain. Just on Article 50, I wondered

whether you would be happy to talk to the British before

Article 50 is invoked. I know the official position is that

talks start when we talks before that, do you

think? Frankly, we need to know

what the UK wants to do. Because, to depart

the European Union there could be various options, frankly speaking,

and different models. And we need to know

what we would like to have as a Single Market, mobility

freedoms, other aspects, it could be the Norwegian

model, the Swiss model, So, first of all we

have to know what we are going to negotiate and then

we will see the positions. Obviously Britain leaving

is going to leave a big hole We put in 10 billion

euros or more into the European budget net

of what we take out. I just wonder whether you have

started thinking about what is going to fill that hole that that

leaves the European Union. This hole will not be

filled, definitely. Because the UK is leaving,

and this is also a small hole in our hearts, frankly speaking,

because we need the UK and we feel And that means that we really have

to define the future, given the interests first of all,

and I believe, I'm convinced as close as possible ties with EU,

which has to do with trade, services So it is too early to say

what kind of hole in the budget will be,

because it depends I'm hearing your

message very clearly. Linas Linkevicius, thank you very

much for talking to us. Thanks.

Thanks. Before we move on and we are getting

news of a serious event in France, it is Bastille day there, there is

an incident in Nice and it looks serious, it seems that a truck has

gone into a crowd of people. Reuters are quoting the local prefect who

says 30 people are dead, social media video shows people running,

which you can see, in panic following the incident. A journalist

with the local Nice newspaper reported there was lots of blood and

lots of injured. We don't know exactly what it is, people talked

about it as an attack of some kind, we have social media pictures. Some

reports, and again all of this is very early days, some reports talked

of shots being fired by police. This is a tragic story coming from France

on Bastille Day, a holiday in France. We will try and bring you

more on that as we get it. In the meantime let's return to our

previous items. One change we will have

to acclimatise ourselves to is that we'll be seeing less of George

Osborne. Six years in the Treasury,

and a turbulent six years at that. We heard earlier about the difficult

conversation he had with Theresa May when she sacked him.

David Grossman looks back at his tenure.

So the hi-vis Chancellor fades, for now at least,

from the political scene, hanging up his fluorescent

But we can at least see what Mr Osborne has

built and compare it to the plans he submitted

The primary task that George Osborne set for himself was eliminating

Here was the planned reduction from his first budget.

But this is what he actually achieved, still a long way to go.

Indeed, after the Brexit referendum, both Mr Osborne

and the soon-to-be-new Prime Minister abandoned

The reason for the failure to get the deficit down as much as he hoped

isn't because he tried to implement tax rises, or benefit cuts,

or public service cuts and they didn't happen.

The measures he announced did happen.

It's because the economy didn't grow as strongly as he thought

and that meant that tax revenues kept disappointing.

But, and it's a big but, Mr Osborne gets credit from many

economists for absorbing the political embarrassment

of repeatedly missing his targets rather than reducing government

spending even further to try to meet them.

I think the biggest criticism to me on the macro side is that

all the adjustment in the fiscal position was on spending.

He slashed spending dramatically and I think that's one

of the reasons we see so many unhappy people.

Local government spending, for example, has really

And that's a very controversial Chancellor.

And that's a very controversial judgement.

George Osborne's second objective was under the extremely broad

For a start, this meant moving the country away from a reliance

on the financial sector that left us so exposed after the crash,

Obviously one of the big tenets was this march of the makers

and to have more rebalancing towards manufacturing.

And I think actually the makers would like to see a bit more spring

in their step than they have at the moment.

I think they still see quite a lot of challenges ahead.

But I think where you can see some things the Chancellor did do

to help manufacturing was a real focus on research

Rebalancing the economy also meant reducing the ratio of household debt

But this proved impossible in an era of ultra-low interest rates

which discouraged saving and encouraged borrowing.

Households are choosing to spend a lot relative to their incomes,

so the household saving ratio is at a very low level

And the amount of borrowing, how we finance this borrowing, well,

the amount of borrowing we do from overseas is at extremely high

So we are a country in which the household sector

is borrowing a lot of money, the Government is still borrowing

a lot, not as much as it did, and that borrowing is being financed

The third objective we could measure Mr Osborne against is his ambition

to spread growth beyond London and the south-east of England.

As a Cheshire MP, the Chancellor championed the so-called

This was partly about infrastructure but partly about political

I think it has but I think there's a lot more to be done.

I think what he did was highlight some of the issues and to start

in train some of the devolution of powers and give more power

But I think what people would say is we need to see more connections

between Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds, some of our northern cities

but also in the Midlands, between Nottingham and Leicester.

I think focusing on the transport infrastructure between some

of the UK's bigger cities undoubtedly needs to be the focus

We've got a dual economy, London and the south-east,

a few other metropolitan areas, are dominant.

Much of the country isn't really doing very well and again, that has

In a strange ironical way, maybe Brexit will do that

Indeed, like his friend David Cameron, perhaps Mr Osborne's

entire time in office will come to be defined

If Brexit does result in economic calamity, as he warned, well,

Mr Osborne will get blamed for letting it happen.

If on the other hand, Brexit is a roaring success,

he will get none of the credit, having argued

David Grossman die on George Osborne. We can't bring you more on

that ghastly episode in Nice. -- David Grossman there. They're ready

to be quite a few dead when a lorry went into a Bastille Day festivity

in the city of Nice. We will try to bring you more at the end of the

programme. You might have seen

Exodus on BBC2 this week. Three nights, three one-hour

programmes, with real-life testimony of refugees, telling the stories

of their journeys into Europe. I survived Isis, I survived

beheadings, I survived Assad. I was almost killed

for a stupid idea Well, the programmes

aroused quite a reaction. They are still on the

iPlayer, of course. There have been times when Europe

can collectively excuse its messy response to the refugee

and migrant crisis by saying were unexpected and unmanageable

in the short term. That excuse obviously wears thin

as time passes. Joining me now in the studio

is former International Development And from Brussels, the Director of

Migration Policy Institute Europe, We have not spoken about this for

very long because we've been in the middle of a referendum campaign but

how have things changed in the last six months, particularly from the

journeys that were documented in that series? I think what you saw in

the TV programme was fairly harrowing but fluid generally --

Jenny, where people were finding their passage from Turkey, through

degrees and then upwards through the Western Balkans into various

locations in Europe. The key change that has occurred in the European

Union, one of the reasons why the refugee crisis has not been so much

in headlines in the last three months is the instigation of a deal

with Turkey to try to stem the flow from Turkey degrees and then the

closure of the borders across the Western Balkans route. What we see

now is a far more sedentary process. Those people who had already made it

to Greece but have not been able to move further through across Europe

are now kept in sometimes poor reception conditions in Greece

itself. A number of people who have arrived from Turkey and managed to

make it across, despite the deal over the last three or four months,

hiding themselves on the islands and in substantially different

conditions than the islands were used to dealing with before March

this year. Things have slowed down. And people are sort of stock. Very

briefly in terms of the numbers leaving, the places from where most

came, has that number fallen dramatically? So the numbers

arriving on the Greek islands have fallen dramatically and that is a

combination of the message that the borders are closed now to Europe,

that you will not move on from Greece but also, the proactive

actions of the Turkish coast guard and the Turkish government itself,

preventing departures degrees. On that sort of singular benchmark of

the EU- Turkey deal, it has been successful in reducing numbers but

that does not necessarily reduce the numbers of people who have been

displaced, whether from Syria, Iraq or other countries. It does not

resolve the underlying problems of a large number of people displaced in

the region of Syria. Andrew Mitchell, it is months now since the

peak of the migrant and refugee crisis. As Europe improved its

performance, quite apart from blocking people out, the conditions

in which they are in, has that been satisfactorily resolved? It is a

massive failure on almost every count. First, it is a failure to

look after the 4.5 - 5 million people displaced within Syria, where

we argued for safe havens. That was the right policy and should have

been implemented. We have failed from Europe to look after

effectively the huge number of people who have gone into Lebanon on

and Jordan and indeed, into Turkey, where the camps and accommodation is

extremely good. We have failed them and failed to educate their

children. We have failed to give them hope because of course, all

these migrants and refugees, they don't want to recreate Syria in

Europe. They want to go back to the areas from which they have been

driven off under gunfire and then moving further afield, when you get

to Europe, people who do put themselves into the hands of the

modern-day equivalent of the slave trader, in a leaky boat, in the hope

of reaching a more prosperous sure, they should be properly looked after

when they arrive on the European coastline, properly processed. But

the aim of the policy should not be to bring them into Europe. It should

be to get them back when you have dealt with the crisis. Justin Pugh

Manitou into, you would have thought Europe could muster the money to

build decent camps and have them properly fed and reasonably sanitary

conditions. Is that what they have in Greece at the moment? Well, it's

better but still reliant on doctors going out from Britain, for example.

The European Union has not got its act together properly. But you are

right in what you say, there should have been European money, UN money,

International money to make sure that these people were kept safe,

got medicine, got properly fed and sheltered and in none of those three

areas which I have sketched out, the areas through which they go, has

that happened. Elisabeth, of course, there have been two different

approaches, one is helping the ball once they arrived and the other is

helping Beadle out there which has been very much the British garden

at's approach. They said they would rather not encourage people to come

to Europe but help them near the camps in Lebanon on Paul Jordan. How

is that working out? -- Lebanon or Jordan. The European picture may not

be great but how is that working out? I think the ambition is

admirable in terms of thinking about how to do protection in regional

origin, in part because some of the most vulnerable people don't have

the opportunity to move or undertake, or are capable of

undertaking these dangerous journeys. One of the big challenges,

however, is whether you are just doing support in the short term,

food, shelter, making sure people are staying alive, against trying to

create new opportunities for people in the regional origin which is a

lot harder. That is exacerbated by the fact that there is a funding

shortfall, despite the investments made by the UK Government and other

governments, there is a persistent funding shortfall into the multiple

billions in nature. That means that when people have become refugees,

they tend to be refugees for long periods of time and they don't find

themselves by doing opportunities in the region of origin because there

is no support beyond perhaps even food and shelter and not even in

some cases. So we have to ask the question, if that is the policy, how

much money will we have two invest to achieve that? Alongside two other

issues... I'm going to have to stop you because we have a breaking story

and I have to go to it. Thank you for joining us. The situation in

Nice is ongoing. This is what the witness, Colin, just told the BBC

News Channel. I'm in the port in Nice. We were basically sitting just

in front of the old town in Nice and saw several hundred people running

towards us, looking panic stricken. We tried to ask a few of them what

the hell was going on, and finally got one who said, "You need to go,

the police have told us to run". So we thought, OK, we all move did the

same direction as the crowds. -- moved in the same direction. At the

base of the hill where the castle is in Nice, the police came running and

said, "Run now". It is clearly a very bad situation in Nice. You can

get more on the BBC News Channel. That is all we have time for the

night. We will bring you more on that story tomorrow, and you can

follow developments online as well. Until tomorrow, good night.

A lot of dry weather through this weekend and there will be some

complications. The complications on Friday will be courtesy of this