14/07/2016 Newsnight


Reshuffle fever in Westminster, will new faces mean new policies and what will happen to the sacked ministers? Plus the world reacts to Boris Johnson as foreign secretary.

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A new-look government, a new-look Whitehall,


a new message but many familiar faces, the same money troubles


Should we expect a decisive, radical, reforming government,


or one that's going to get stuck with Brexit?


Our priority will be to send out a very strong and clear message that


Britain will remain a very attractive place to invest,


to create jobs, to do business, and we will take whatever steps


we need to take to make sure that remains the case.


But at the French embassy tonight, the Foreign Secretary


was already experiencing life on the outside.


We'll look at what to expect from the new administration.


And what did Theresa May say to George Osborne as she let him go?


Our political editor has found out and it wasn't pretty.


And refugees' experiences told on BBC2.


So, has Europe managed to sort out its response?


For six years, Theresa May has been quietly sitting in the Cabinet.


She's avoided the plotting, mostly, and has presumably been


making private judgements about all her colleagues


Today, she's had the chance to form a government


of her own and her colleagues at last find out what she's been


Bad news for some, as they were dropped.


Good news for others, with fresh faces given a big


It nets out as a hugely different government.


We've become used to remarkably few personnel changes


over the last six years, so this is a shock to


And a bigger change than last year, when the coalition ended and the Lib


Here's our political editor Nick Watt.


Before we go into what it all means, just this extraordinary story


tonight that you have managed to get hold of about Theresa May and George


Osborne? Reds Downing Street were pretty clear yesterday that Rita Mae


had sacked George Osborne, he didn't resign and I've learned to like they


had a very frosty meaning -- meeting at Downing Street yesterday in which


trees may make pointed remarks to the outgoing Chancellor. She said he


had overpromised and under delivered and took issue with his surplus


target and said that has given them a nightmare, he could never deliver


it and perhaps it was a bit of a stunt as people said, to catch the


Labour Party. I understand to reason may was repeating what she had said


in a speech in Birmingham the day before where she had rear --


reiterated her pledge to been the surplus target and she said George


Osborne had not done enough to challenge deep economic reform and


she was going to do it. The reverberations from the sackings and


appointments are rebounding around Westminster still. We thought we


would take a look at how the new Prime Minister has gone about


forming her government. Not since Harold Macmillan's night


of the Long knives in 1962 have we so much ministerial blood flow along


Downing Street. Theresa May has reordered an entire government as


she responds to the twin instructions from the electorate.


Tate Britain out of the EU and change the ways of the governing


elite. As you waded through the blood, it was clear that the new


Prime Minister had three aims in mind. Number one, deliver Brexit


with a Nixon in China approach. Theresa May's appointment of a trio


of Brexiteer is to take charge of Britain's exit from the EU fulfils


her pledge to ensure the referendum winners run this process. Allies who


say that only arch Eurosceptics have a hope of success are drawing


parallels with the way in week the hardline Richard Nixon delivered a


breakthrough in US relations with China. The Prime Minister might also


be trying to create some space should the negotiations turn out to


be slightly more talent in. What the Prime Minister has done is said,


"OK, you have done the heavy lifting intellectually about this. Deliver


it for me in government". I think that because they are trusted,


deeply trusted by all Conservatives, both in parliament and in the


grassroots, to be true to their beliefs on that, that they are


actually in the best place to make the deals and perhaps the slight


compromises you have two, to deliver Brexit and deliver it for the


benefit of the British people. Number two, rewiring Whitehall. Not


since the era of Tony Blair, who loved to abolish and set up


government departments, have we seen such people Whitehall. For example,


the business, innovation and skills department is renamed, and its


headquarters houses some of the new bees. There is pain and delight in


equal measure as the very un-Thatcherite industrial strategy


makes a return and climate change is nowhere to be seen on the nameplate.


Number three, social reform in the spirit of Joe Chamberlain. In her


first statement outside number ten, the new Prime Minister delivered an


unmistakable message of change by making clear that she would tackle


burning injustices. This thinking owes much to her new Joint Chiefs of


Staff, Nick Timothy, who is the biographer of the great social


reformer, Joseph Chamberlain. Being from Stratford-upon-Avon, close to


Birmingham, with Joseph Chamberlain and his sons as well, I think that


is something of a role model to us all, the ability to devolve power


but also, to champion our cities and be a real champion for those on


National Living Wage, those hard-working families that I think


she keeps going back to. Theresa May will finalise her new government


over the coming days as she turns to the lower ministerial ranks. The


blood-letting is not yet over. Nick Watt, there.


While we've all been banging on about Europe


for the last six months, ordinary life has rumbled


on, but quite a number of domestic problems have been


The Theresa in-tray is piled high with things to be resolved.


Some prime ministers have the option of staying vague and drifting


Theresa May won't have that luxury. Her decisions will be made in high


definition. Theresa May's permission may well be remembered for good or


ill by how well the Brexit negotiations go. But on domestic


policy, she's not inheriting a blank piece of paper.


There are three important areas I would pick out and keep an eye on


Secondly, the roll-out of universal credit.


Secondly, the roll-out Thirdly, the NHS.


This economist explains how these issues have been


-- made more, get it by the effects of the vote on Brexit. The exchange


rate has fallen and the cost of importing things is going to be


higher. That will push up on inflation.


It will leave less money spare for people to spend


The second thing that's going to happen is GDP


growth is likely to slow and hiring decisions


potentially wage growth will be a little slower too.


Both of these things are actually quite bad for


the public finances because we need people to spend so that we can tax


This is a graph showing what markets expected


coming years before the Brexit vote, and this is after.


You can see more than a few years out that they are


look at the very left of the graph.


Inflation is now expected to be sharply higher.


This expert from a think tank on living standards


explains how this might be a problem for Damian Green, the new Work and


We've got wages growing at a pretty modest rate


We've also got a benefit freeze, which means benefits aren't going


anywhere, it's only working-age benefits over the next few years.


So relatively modest levels of inflation mean that for both


workers and those relying on benefits, in


work and out of work, their living standards


are likely to start to


flat-line again, or even maybe fall over the next few years.


One important issue that will affect this is the roll-out of the troubled


It was intended by this point to be helping 6 million people.


This plan to reform a range of working-age


Even before Brexit came along the Government was facing a


On the one hand, if it was able to implement


meant actually many working-age households would be losing out


We are about to start entering the territory


of postcode lottery, where


identical families in different parts of the country would have


different outcomes depending on whether they are on the old system


But if it doesn't work, then that is a hit to


the Treasury, because by moving from the old system


Treasury stands to save somewhere in the region of ?4 billion or so.


This analyst from the Nuffield Trust, a


health think tank, exclusively reveals to Newsnight her maths


suggest trouble ahead for Jeremy Hunt, who


NHS hospitals are really under a lot of pressure at the moment.


We know they are already missing a lot of their targets


And at the same time they have an underlying financial


That means it's costing them ?3.5 billion more to


treat the patients that they have coming in than they are actually


Look at emergency departments, where 95% of


attendances should be dealt with in four hours.


We met that target for bits of 2014, we flirted with it in


2015, but in 2016 we've been miles away.


So how big a task is it for the NHS to get back into budget for 2020?


First of all, hospitals will need to cut their costs every year by 3%.


Over recent years they've only managed to cut them by 2%


and the government's own efficiency review has found that 2% really


So hospitals are going to have to exceed that for the next three


In addition to that we are going to need to see a slowing in the rate


In recent years, the NHS does 3% more work a year.


We think we are going to need to see that slow down to around 2%.


There are schemes that cut NHS demand relatively painlessly,


for example, by putting doctors inside care homes.


That could mean some people get treated before their minor


But there are also other ways of cutting NHS


For example, we could just stop keeping up with some


All of those things would suppress demand


But would an electorate that has just voted, it thinks, for more


The problem is that it's the painful stuff that's certain to save money


short-term, and the hospital overshoot could reach


Brexit is not Theresa May's only problem.


A little memo therefore the new Prime Minister.


Before we digest all that, Chris is here with one small legacy


a letter from the PM's office released on the web.


It's all about the severance pay of special advisors.


It's a bit different to everything we have been talking about but


explain. So there's a process in white or called ministerial


direction. When civil servants think they are being asked to do something


they shouldn't be doing, for value for money grounds come usually, they


say to a minister, "We will do this but you have to put in writing you


have asked us to do it". David Cameron has asked the Cabinet Office


to pay extra severance pay to his own special advisers because he


feels sorry they have lost their jobs in a sudden shock over the last


month. So we don't know how this is going to be debated but the cost is


going to be, special advisers, who have got around ?750,000 in total...


About ten of them. Now they are going to get about ?1 million. It is


distributed unevenly, five figure sums for a Sahm, and four figures


for others, months of plays the issue. So they get a few months and


he wants them to get some extra months because it's been a rush?


Exactly and if you are as it servant who has perhaps the these civil


service redundancy scheme strewn down all been made redundant and


watched the Prime Minister saying, "That's very unfair, what these poor


chaps I know are getting", and intervening personally, this might


rankle a little. Thank you for joining us.


So, that's the old government's last gesture.


With me now are Jill Rutter from the Institute for Government,


Philippa Stroud, a former Conservative adviser who now sits


in the House of Lords, and Phil Collins who writes


So much to talk about them if you are not too depressed by listening


to Chris' previous peace. On white or, how big a radical reform of


white or have we seen? We are just adjusting it now. Two things have


been. Theresa May by Brexit. One issue, we said she would have a


secretary of state for Brexit and she's created that, seem to have


gone for the option of creating a new Brexit ministry. If I'd been


Cabinet Secretary, I'm not sure I would have advised that straightaway


but she's gone for that. She is beefing up international trade with


this new department with Liam Fox but we always had a rather odd thing


which was a non-ministerial apartment doing trade which had a


minister. That may be a growth of that with some people moving into


that. She has done some things she did not have to do. She has created


this new business, energy and industrial strategy department and


in doing so, abolished the EC, which was created by Gordon Brown for Ed


Miliband in 2008 and also moved skills which is one of the footballs


of Whitehall back to education and given it universities, too. Does


this distract people? Is it now they are going to spend six months


thinking about where their desk is rather than getting or can it be


done very smoothly? The departments affected will be distracted. It


takes some time to get going when you do things. You have got all


those bread-and-butter issues like where you are going to base people,


what you are going to pay them, things like that to sort out.


Generally our advice has been to think very carefully before you do


machinery of government changes and generally don't do them. There's


usually a better option. David Cameron took that advice, that was


one of the great things about his administration. You only want to do


it if you think there a long-term benefit.


Brexit potentially demands that. Phil Collins, how impressed are you


buy the ability of the new team to carry through Theresa May's


objectives? Well, on the threshold of Downing


Street Theresa May gave what I thought was a really impressive


speech, full of huge ambitions for improving the life chances of the


least well off, and that's incredibly difficult to do. Let's


pretend you weren't having to extricate Great Britain from the


European Union at the same time, the ambitions she set out are immense


and I worry about the candidates into microwaves forced up 22 people


in the Cabinet, slight second and third 11 feel about it, the other


thing linked to that is if you take out George Osborne, for good or ill,


he did some big things, pension liberalisation, Northern Powerhouse


and Living Wage Commission Michael Gove on education and in the early


days justice on prisons, they have energy and passion for reform and I


wonder if that energy will exist in the existing cabinet. Are you


worried about that, Philippa? I think Michael is a huge loss to the


government, personally. I would love to have seen him have a place. But


actually, I really like what she has done with the Department for


Education. Adding in universities, but also skills and apprenticeships,


and giving it to someone like Justine Greening, who is deeply


committed to social mobility for sub I've spoken to Justine over this one


numerous times. Do you think she's going to be strong? She needs to be


tough and be nice to the ones she needs to be nice to. She won't beat


up people but she is focused. Social mode is what she wants to do. It's


what she has actually wanted to do for the last few years. She's come


into this department really well thought through, and she has


literally, from cradle all the way up through university and onto the


skills agenda and the apprenticeship agenda, that is a social reformer's


dream package in all honesty. We wanted skills agenda at the DWP to


go with employment, but for her to have it there as well is fantastic.


All of that is good and I don't doubt the fine intentions, but it's


incredible hard to do. It's very hard to do in a time of plenty,


during the Blair government it was found difficult to make progress on


this and there was plenty of money sloshing around. When you have very


little money it's even more difficult. It's going to be very


hard, they are hostages to fortune in Theresa May's speech they are


huge. And you have a question of the European Union. I think she's been


quite clever on that. She said... Can I put you over there? I will put


you over there. Do you think a government can do more than one


thing at once? This is quite a big thing, leaving the European Union.


Can it deliver this whole reform agenda, industrial strategy,


quality, corporate governance, all of that and leave the European


Union? Or can a government only chew gum or walk, it can't do both at the


same time? Governments do lots of things, there is business as usual


as well as reform. The key restraint is the political capital the Prime


Minister has to deploy. When the question is, how much will she have


to deploy sorting out Europe, lots of this will be done ahead of a


mid-level, final deals are only done a head of government level. She has


somebody to do the heavy lifting. David Davis will do the heavy


lifting, whether he does it in the way she wants it done is critical,


whether -- that will be critical whether they bash heads together. As


she put the people in who she knows shares her agenda so she doesn't


have to do so much? I think that is where you see the bandwidth now. Are


you worried you won't get it all done? There is just a lot of stuff.


One moment, the comment about No 10 and big hitters, that's important.


One of the things she has done is cleared out of No 10 of all of its


special advisers, hence Chris's comments about special advisers.


Always a terrible mistake to do that, all of that memory and people


who know what you are doing on. It gives her the chance to bring in


people who are aligned with her agenda and genuinely want to do some


of the reform. They will take a year to learn. You asked me if I'm


worried, that I'm pleased about Justine and about Sajid Javid going


on at ACOG, really focused on building houses. That is one of the


things we absolutely need I think Liz Truss's appointment at Min of


Justice is important too. Michael was focused on the academisation of


prisons and you have somebody who has a strong education background.


If she chooses to she could come in and improve things. -- DCLG. If you


want to do lots of things on the domestic and social agenda isn't the


rule that you need money? The one thing she will not have, surely, is


oodles of money. They haven't got loads of money but that's not to say


you can't do things. Lots of prison reforms don't need lots of money so


if Liz Truss picks up the bat on from Michael Gove, which she might,


she is a reformer herself, there are things that can be done and there


are plans. There is lots on welfare that can save money if you look at


it. You cannot necessarily use money as an excuse because you haven't got


any. But it worries me. I think leaving the European Union is


several things at once, that's not just one thing, that is lots of


things. If the Government can do that in the next few years before


the election and nothing else it will already have been quite


successful. So I'm not sure it can even manage that, let alone these


other things. It partly depends on her style of government as well,


which we don't know yet. David Cameron was always very good at


almost being a chairman and letting his Secretary of State get on. She


is a good manager, people say. If she can achieve the chairmanship


role and work with her secretaries of state, she has the ability to


implement social reform. One of the things she doesn't have so many of


his civil servants, some people think that helps things move more


smoothly but Brexit will absorb a lot of the civil service's time and


effort, just mapping where Europe matters to us. We've been there for


40 years, it's a really big exercise. Quite a lot of these other


reforms require civil servants to do them. If the brightest and the best


are being creamed into the Brexit ministry it's going to reduce the


capacity of quite a lot of other places. It will be interesting to


see whether she goes slow on the pace of cuts to the civil service.


Thank you very much indeed, let's hope she is not watching and getting


depressed about the job she has got! Brexit Britain has certainly been


enjoying 15 minutes of fame, the world looking upon us


with a variety of reactions. Here's a little clip of the news


of his Cabinet appointment being given to a US State Department


spokesman last night. He is paid to diplomatically


suppress any inappropriate reflex. And his replacement


as Foreign Secretary has just been For our European colleagues,


the British situation raises all sorts of questions -


not always very welcome ones. And now they find themselves working


with a Foreign Secretary who has, over the years, treated


the EU with derision. A little earlier, I spoke


to the Lithuanian foreign What does he think of


Boris Johnson's past indiscretions, and will they make it difficult


to take him or British Frankly it depends how he will


present this stuff, or what has efforts to remedy what was


done. The German Foreign Minister,


Frank-Walter Steinmeier, called some of the things he said in the


referendum campaign irresponsible And it is true that Boris Johnson


has been a critic of Does that make it harder to work


with him, do you think? Many things I disagree


with what he said, But this was the campaign


in the UK and now So now he has to prove


everything that was said by him, by all of those Brexit leaders,


this is just his task. There has been one issue


which has been the There are many Lithuanians,


as you know, living in the UK. And uncertainty over


their status for How quickly do you think


we can sort that one out? I don't think days or weeks,


probably not. But this is a very


important part of the It's not only with regard


to Lithuanians, or Poles or other EU citizens


who live in the UK. But also, let me


mention UK citizens who So we have to negotiate


decently, and also smoothly, in order to make sure


that they should feel more certain. Just on Article 50, I wondered


whether you would be happy to talk to the British before


Article 50 is invoked. I know the official position is that


talks start when we talks before that, do you


think? Frankly, we need to know


what the UK wants to do. Because, to depart


the European Union there could be various options, frankly speaking,


and different models. And we need to know


what we would like to have as a Single Market, mobility


freedoms, other aspects, it could be the Norwegian


model, the Swiss model, So, first of all we


have to know what we are going to negotiate and then


we will see the positions. Obviously Britain leaving


is going to leave a big hole We put in 10 billion


euros or more into the European budget net


of what we take out. I just wonder whether you have


started thinking about what is going to fill that hole that that


leaves the European Union. This hole will not be


filled, definitely. Because the UK is leaving,


and this is also a small hole in our hearts, frankly speaking,


because we need the UK and we feel And that means that we really have


to define the future, given the interests first of all,


and I believe, I'm convinced as close as possible ties with EU,


which has to do with trade, services So it is too early to say


what kind of hole in the budget will be,


because it depends I'm hearing your


message very clearly. Linas Linkevicius, thank you very


much for talking to us. Thanks.


Thanks. Before we move on and we are getting


news of a serious event in France, it is Bastille day there, there is


an incident in Nice and it looks serious, it seems that a truck has


gone into a crowd of people. Reuters are quoting the local prefect who


says 30 people are dead, social media video shows people running,


which you can see, in panic following the incident. A journalist


with the local Nice newspaper reported there was lots of blood and


lots of injured. We don't know exactly what it is, people talked


about it as an attack of some kind, we have social media pictures. Some


reports, and again all of this is very early days, some reports talked


of shots being fired by police. This is a tragic story coming from France


on Bastille Day, a holiday in France. We will try and bring you


more on that as we get it. In the meantime let's return to our


previous items. One change we will have


to acclimatise ourselves to is that we'll be seeing less of George


Osborne. Six years in the Treasury,


and a turbulent six years at that. We heard earlier about the difficult


conversation he had with Theresa May when she sacked him.


David Grossman looks back at his tenure.


So the hi-vis Chancellor fades, for now at least,


from the political scene, hanging up his fluorescent


But we can at least see what Mr Osborne has


built and compare it to the plans he submitted


The primary task that George Osborne set for himself was eliminating


Here was the planned reduction from his first budget.


But this is what he actually achieved, still a long way to go.


Indeed, after the Brexit referendum, both Mr Osborne


and the soon-to-be-new Prime Minister abandoned


The reason for the failure to get the deficit down as much as he hoped


isn't because he tried to implement tax rises, or benefit cuts,


or public service cuts and they didn't happen.


The measures he announced did happen.


It's because the economy didn't grow as strongly as he thought


and that meant that tax revenues kept disappointing.


But, and it's a big but, Mr Osborne gets credit from many


economists for absorbing the political embarrassment


of repeatedly missing his targets rather than reducing government


spending even further to try to meet them.


I think the biggest criticism to me on the macro side is that


all the adjustment in the fiscal position was on spending.


He slashed spending dramatically and I think that's one


of the reasons we see so many unhappy people.


Local government spending, for example, has really


And that's a very controversial Chancellor.


And that's a very controversial judgement.


George Osborne's second objective was under the extremely broad


For a start, this meant moving the country away from a reliance


on the financial sector that left us so exposed after the crash,


Obviously one of the big tenets was this march of the makers


and to have more rebalancing towards manufacturing.


And I think actually the makers would like to see a bit more spring


in their step than they have at the moment.


I think they still see quite a lot of challenges ahead.


But I think where you can see some things the Chancellor did do


to help manufacturing was a real focus on research


Rebalancing the economy also meant reducing the ratio of household debt


But this proved impossible in an era of ultra-low interest rates


which discouraged saving and encouraged borrowing.


Households are choosing to spend a lot relative to their incomes,


so the household saving ratio is at a very low level


And the amount of borrowing, how we finance this borrowing, well,


the amount of borrowing we do from overseas is at extremely high


So we are a country in which the household sector


is borrowing a lot of money, the Government is still borrowing


a lot, not as much as it did, and that borrowing is being financed


The third objective we could measure Mr Osborne against is his ambition


to spread growth beyond London and the south-east of England.


As a Cheshire MP, the Chancellor championed the so-called


This was partly about infrastructure but partly about political


I think it has but I think there's a lot more to be done.


I think what he did was highlight some of the issues and to start


in train some of the devolution of powers and give more power


But I think what people would say is we need to see more connections


between Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds, some of our northern cities


but also in the Midlands, between Nottingham and Leicester.


I think focusing on the transport infrastructure between some


of the UK's bigger cities undoubtedly needs to be the focus


We've got a dual economy, London and the south-east,


a few other metropolitan areas, are dominant.


Much of the country isn't really doing very well and again, that has


In a strange ironical way, maybe Brexit will do that


Indeed, like his friend David Cameron, perhaps Mr Osborne's


entire time in office will come to be defined


If Brexit does result in economic calamity, as he warned, well,


Mr Osborne will get blamed for letting it happen.


If on the other hand, Brexit is a roaring success,


he will get none of the credit, having argued


David Grossman die on George Osborne. We can't bring you more on


that ghastly episode in Nice. -- David Grossman there. They're ready


to be quite a few dead when a lorry went into a Bastille Day festivity


in the city of Nice. We will try to bring you more at the end of the


programme. You might have seen


Exodus on BBC2 this week. Three nights, three one-hour


programmes, with real-life testimony of refugees, telling the stories


of their journeys into Europe. I survived Isis, I survived


beheadings, I survived Assad. I was almost killed


for a stupid idea Well, the programmes


aroused quite a reaction. They are still on the


iPlayer, of course. There have been times when Europe


can collectively excuse its messy response to the refugee


and migrant crisis by saying were unexpected and unmanageable


in the short term. That excuse obviously wears thin


as time passes. Joining me now in the studio


is former International Development And from Brussels, the Director of


Migration Policy Institute Europe, We have not spoken about this for


very long because we've been in the middle of a referendum campaign but


how have things changed in the last six months, particularly from the


journeys that were documented in that series? I think what you saw in


the TV programme was fairly harrowing but fluid generally --


Jenny, where people were finding their passage from Turkey, through


degrees and then upwards through the Western Balkans into various


locations in Europe. The key change that has occurred in the European


Union, one of the reasons why the refugee crisis has not been so much


in headlines in the last three months is the instigation of a deal


with Turkey to try to stem the flow from Turkey degrees and then the


closure of the borders across the Western Balkans route. What we see


now is a far more sedentary process. Those people who had already made it


to Greece but have not been able to move further through across Europe


are now kept in sometimes poor reception conditions in Greece


itself. A number of people who have arrived from Turkey and managed to


make it across, despite the deal over the last three or four months,


hiding themselves on the islands and in substantially different


conditions than the islands were used to dealing with before March


this year. Things have slowed down. And people are sort of stock. Very


briefly in terms of the numbers leaving, the places from where most


came, has that number fallen dramatically? So the numbers


arriving on the Greek islands have fallen dramatically and that is a


combination of the message that the borders are closed now to Europe,


that you will not move on from Greece but also, the proactive


actions of the Turkish coast guard and the Turkish government itself,


preventing departures degrees. On that sort of singular benchmark of


the EU- Turkey deal, it has been successful in reducing numbers but


that does not necessarily reduce the numbers of people who have been


displaced, whether from Syria, Iraq or other countries. It does not


resolve the underlying problems of a large number of people displaced in


the region of Syria. Andrew Mitchell, it is months now since the


peak of the migrant and refugee crisis. As Europe improved its


performance, quite apart from blocking people out, the conditions


in which they are in, has that been satisfactorily resolved? It is a


massive failure on almost every count. First, it is a failure to


look after the 4.5 - 5 million people displaced within Syria, where


we argued for safe havens. That was the right policy and should have


been implemented. We have failed from Europe to look after


effectively the huge number of people who have gone into Lebanon on


and Jordan and indeed, into Turkey, where the camps and accommodation is


extremely good. We have failed them and failed to educate their


children. We have failed to give them hope because of course, all


these migrants and refugees, they don't want to recreate Syria in


Europe. They want to go back to the areas from which they have been


driven off under gunfire and then moving further afield, when you get


to Europe, people who do put themselves into the hands of the


modern-day equivalent of the slave trader, in a leaky boat, in the hope


of reaching a more prosperous sure, they should be properly looked after


when they arrive on the European coastline, properly processed. But


the aim of the policy should not be to bring them into Europe. It should


be to get them back when you have dealt with the crisis. Justin Pugh


Manitou into, you would have thought Europe could muster the money to


build decent camps and have them properly fed and reasonably sanitary


conditions. Is that what they have in Greece at the moment? Well, it's


better but still reliant on doctors going out from Britain, for example.


The European Union has not got its act together properly. But you are


right in what you say, there should have been European money, UN money,


International money to make sure that these people were kept safe,


got medicine, got properly fed and sheltered and in none of those three


areas which I have sketched out, the areas through which they go, has


that happened. Elisabeth, of course, there have been two different


approaches, one is helping the ball once they arrived and the other is


helping Beadle out there which has been very much the British garden


at's approach. They said they would rather not encourage people to come


to Europe but help them near the camps in Lebanon on Paul Jordan. How


is that working out? -- Lebanon or Jordan. The European picture may not


be great but how is that working out? I think the ambition is


admirable in terms of thinking about how to do protection in regional


origin, in part because some of the most vulnerable people don't have


the opportunity to move or undertake, or are capable of


undertaking these dangerous journeys. One of the big challenges,


however, is whether you are just doing support in the short term,


food, shelter, making sure people are staying alive, against trying to


create new opportunities for people in the regional origin which is a


lot harder. That is exacerbated by the fact that there is a funding


shortfall, despite the investments made by the UK Government and other


governments, there is a persistent funding shortfall into the multiple


billions in nature. That means that when people have become refugees,


they tend to be refugees for long periods of time and they don't find


themselves by doing opportunities in the region of origin because there


is no support beyond perhaps even food and shelter and not even in


some cases. So we have to ask the question, if that is the policy, how


much money will we have two invest to achieve that? Alongside two other


issues... I'm going to have to stop you because we have a breaking story


and I have to go to it. Thank you for joining us. The situation in


Nice is ongoing. This is what the witness, Colin, just told the BBC


News Channel. I'm in the port in Nice. We were basically sitting just


in front of the old town in Nice and saw several hundred people running


towards us, looking panic stricken. We tried to ask a few of them what


the hell was going on, and finally got one who said, "You need to go,


the police have told us to run". So we thought, OK, we all move did the


same direction as the crowds. -- moved in the same direction. At the


base of the hill where the castle is in Nice, the police came running and


said, "Run now". It is clearly a very bad situation in Nice. You can


get more on the BBC News Channel. That is all we have time for the


night. We will bring you more on that story tomorrow, and you can


follow developments online as well. Until tomorrow, good night.


A lot of dry weather through this weekend and there will be some


complications. The complications on Friday will be courtesy of this


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