01/08/2016 Newsnight


01/08/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis, including a look at the food queues of Venezuela and Cameron's honours.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Thank you very much indeed, Liverpool.

:00:11.:00:15.

He can still attract a big crowd - Jeremy Corbyn rallies his troops

:00:16.:00:18.

But in Westminster, the chatter has been very different.

:00:19.:00:27.

They're not talking about it in public, but behind the scenes

:00:28.:00:30.

Labour's warring factions have been trying to answer a vital question -

:00:31.:00:33.

can the MPs unilaterally dump Corbyn and have their own leader

:00:34.:00:36.

Rebel Labour MPs have been thinking about their options

:00:37.:00:43.

should Jeremy Corbyn win the Labour leadership again in September.

:00:44.:00:46.

Newsnight has learnt that MPs on both sides have been in touch

:00:47.:00:49.

with parliamentary officials to discuss the mechanics

:00:50.:00:50.

of a declaration of independence at Westminster from

:00:51.:00:52.

The veteran MP Greville Janner may have died last year,

:00:53.:01:02.

but allegations of child sexual exploitation have not gone away.

:01:03.:01:04.

His family are determined to defend him.

:01:05.:01:08.

Dad is dead, and so there's not the possibility of the other side

:01:09.:01:11.

It's the people making the accusations' word,

:01:12.:01:22.

We're in the food queues in Venezuela, where something

:01:23.:01:35.

It's hard not to view the goings on in the Labour Party this summer

:01:36.:01:54.

without thinking that this is more than a fleeting domestic row.

:01:55.:01:57.

Can it carry on into next summer too?

:01:58.:02:00.

Well, it's been said that the two wings of the party are like a couple

:02:01.:02:04.

who want a divorce, but can't bring themselves to separate,

:02:05.:02:06.

because neither can afford to move out.

:02:07.:02:08.

Publicly of course, no-one in Labour yet wants to talk about a split.

:02:09.:02:12.

But it turns out there have been conversations

:02:13.:02:14.

about what could happen if Mr Corbyn wins again.

:02:15.:02:17.

What the implications might be of MPs detaching themselves

:02:18.:02:19.

Is this a solution, or an aggravation

:02:20.:02:23.

Nick Watt has been looking at the rebel MPs options.

:02:24.:02:36.

It is hard lay summer of -- hardly a summer of love in the Labour Party.

:02:37.:02:43.

Jeremy Corbyn has lost the confidence of his MPs, but tonight

:02:44.:02:47.

thousands of supporters turned out for him in Liverpool. His

:02:48.:02:54.

challenger, Owen Smith, is putting up a fight. But thoughts are turning

:02:55.:03:00.

to life under a rejuvenated Jeremy Corbyn. A full split is being

:03:01.:03:06.

discussed on the fringes of the party, by the two historic splits in

:03:07.:03:17.

the Labour Party have left a painful legacy. For the moment, a full split

:03:18.:03:26.

is seen as a step too far. This unhappiness with Jeremy and people

:03:27.:03:31.

are worried about the general election, but I don't see any

:03:32.:03:36.

inclination for a split. I don't hear colleagues talking about it. I

:03:37.:03:40.

don't think it will happen. I think it is a media fixation. With a full

:03:41.:03:47.

split unlikely, some MPs are exploring other avenues. Some of

:03:48.:03:51.

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour opponents have been dusting down the

:03:52.:03:56.

Parliamentary rule books to see if they could be called the opposition

:03:57.:04:01.

if they can command greater support at Westminster. We understand both

:04:02.:04:06.

sides from Labour's war have been in touch with Parliamentary officials

:04:07.:04:10.

to see whether this is a realistic prospect. The rules it would appear

:04:11.:04:17.

are somewhat opaque. If a large breakaway group wanted to go to the

:04:18.:04:22.

speaker and claim to be the opposition, without breaking away

:04:23.:04:24.

officially from the Labour Party, that could place the Speaker in a

:04:25.:04:29.

difficult position. That in effect he would be making a judgment as to

:04:30.:04:34.

whether the Labour Party continued in its current form. In the shadows

:04:35.:04:39.

some Labour figures are looking at clipping Jeremy Corbyn's wings, by

:04:40.:04:45.

reviving the tradition of holding elections to the Shadow Cabinet.

:04:46.:04:49.

Labour MPs who are opposed to him would have the first say on changing

:04:50.:04:55.

the rules. If they were voting in Shadow Cabinet elections I imagine

:04:56.:05:00.

they would choose members they saw as more moderate and so you would

:05:01.:05:06.

have a party leader from one faction of the party and a Shadow Cabinet

:05:07.:05:10.

representing an alternative point of view. It is hard to see that they

:05:11.:05:15.

would be electing many Jeremy Corbyn supporters. That would change

:05:16.:05:21.

things. Reviving Shadow Cabinet elections would involve changing

:05:22.:05:27.

party rules, I would have to be approved by the national executive

:05:28.:05:29.

committee and the Labour Party conference. The most likely outcome

:05:30.:05:35.

may be a continuing stand off between Labour's opposing factions.

:05:36.:05:39.

We have spoke on the senior figures opposed to Jeremy Corbyn who say

:05:40.:05:43.

their best hope is for Theresa May to go back on her word and call an

:05:44.:05:48.

early general election to gain a mandate for the EU renegotiate

:05:49.:05:52.

shuns. Who would have thought that Labour MPs would look to a Tory

:05:53.:06:00.

Prime Minister to challenge their leader for them. Nick is with me.

:06:01.:06:09.

Let us focus on the conversations with The Speaker's office. If they

:06:10.:06:14.

concluded that can't work? It is interesting that the distrust is so

:06:15.:06:21.

great that the two factions have been holding separate informal

:06:22.:06:25.

meetings. What this shows about the Corbyn camp is they're so worried

:06:26.:06:29.

about their control of party, they're saying could this happen sta

:06:30.:06:33.

message they're getting is it is a matter in the hands of the Speaker

:06:34.:06:40.

the anti-Corbyn people say can we pull this off, because they're

:06:41.:06:46.

determined to marginalise Jeremy Corbyn. It comes down on the side of

:06:47.:06:51.

he or she who holds the title deeds of Labour Party, that will be Jeremy

:06:52.:06:56.

Corbyn and that explains why we are moving away from splits and

:06:57.:07:03.

breakaways. 75% of MPs said they didn't have confidence in Jeremy

:07:04.:07:10.

Corbyn. How many of them are serious enough to up the ante, as opposed we

:07:11.:07:16.

don't have confidence in him, but if the party want him we will stick

:07:17.:07:21.

with him. How many of those are there? That 80% figure looks good on

:07:22.:07:30.

Pape e but one of Jeremy Corbyn's opponents said it is a flimsy

:07:31.:07:36.

figure. This person said 60 who said they had no confidence in Jeremy

:07:37.:07:40.

Corbyn will rediscover their confidence if he is elected leader

:07:41.:07:44.

and you will have a functioning front bench. 30 will hunker down and

:07:45.:07:50.

MPs. And there may be a core group hostile, that was the phrase in the

:07:51.:07:54.

internal Jeremy Corbyn office group and this person said s as for us, we

:07:55.:08:03.

will be progressively picked off with deselections. This is why you

:08:04.:08:09.

came down this idea of stand off. What does that mean? Perhaps it mean

:08:10.:08:14.

another Tory government. What can it mean you have a disagreement between

:08:15.:08:20.

the leader and the bulk of his or her own MPs. It may see our

:08:21.:08:28.

favourite verb come back, that is unresignations, those who resigned

:08:29.:08:32.

will unresign and come back. Difficult for senior people to do

:08:33.:08:35.

that. Because we can play back what they said on these programmes. So

:08:36.:08:38.

that is the first thing. I think the second thing that will happen is the

:08:39.:08:45.

shadow, Shadow Cabinet. It is difficult to revive the rules and

:08:46.:08:52.

you may have a parallel op ocean where senior figures will stand up

:08:53.:08:56.

and say their own things. But some of those most ardent opponents of

:08:57.:09:01.

Jeremy Corbyn are saying weirdly their best hope is in Theresa May

:09:02.:09:05.

finding herself having to go back on her word and call a general election

:09:06.:09:09.

if she runs into difficulties over an EU mandate, because they say

:09:10.:09:13.

Jeremy Corbyn would struggle to do well there and then hopefully that

:09:14.:09:16.

would be their chance. But by then, you may have a very different Labour

:09:17.:09:20.

Party and many more MPs from the left. Thank you.

:09:21.:09:25.

The dead can't defend themselves, but their families can.

:09:26.:09:28.

And the family of the late Greville Janner, the long serving

:09:29.:09:30.

Labour MP for Leicester West and later a peer, are certainly

:09:31.:09:33.

fighting back against the numerous allegations that he sexually

:09:34.:09:35.

He died last year, after several years with dementia, having never

:09:36.:09:40.

He had been questioned in 1991, and there had been subsequent

:09:41.:09:49.

investigations into him, but without any action taken.

:09:50.:09:51.

Then last year, in the post-Saville era, his case shot to the fore.

:09:52.:09:56.

The Director of Public Prosecutions for England and Wales said

:09:57.:09:58.

that she thought there had been enough evidence in the past

:09:59.:10:01.

Despite her reservations and despite his illness,

:10:02.:10:07.

Janner made a brief, confused appearance in court

:10:08.:10:09.

However, the case against Greville Janner is down

:10:10.:10:20.

to be one topic of the huge Independent Inquiry

:10:21.:10:22.

into Child Sexual Abuse, under Justice Lowell Goddard.

:10:23.:10:27.

And that has annoyed the Janner family.

:10:28.:10:29.

To them he was a loving father who tried to help, not

:10:30.:10:32.

I sat down with Lord Janner's daughter Marion this

:10:33.:10:36.

afternoon, at her - and what had been his - home.

:10:37.:10:41.

I asked how aware of the allegation he was in the year before he died.

:10:42.:10:48.

Completely unaware, because he didn't have the cognitive

:10:49.:10:50.

understanding to grasp what was going on.

:10:51.:10:54.

So in fact, we had a news blackout in the house,

:10:55.:10:58.

so he had absolutely no idea - which was one of the

:10:59.:11:01.

The family have felt absolutely, 100% behind him all the way.

:11:02.:11:08.

You were personally obviously very loyal, you looked

:11:09.:11:10.

I wonder whether, at any point in that, you've

:11:11.:11:15.

had your own doubts or questions, or whether you have thought

:11:16.:11:18.

at any stage, did he abuse children in his past?

:11:19.:11:25.

No, no, absolutely not, because we have the evidence

:11:26.:11:28.

We know, so it's not a sort of blind loyalty

:11:29.:11:35.

because he was a wonderful dad, it just wasn't like that.

:11:36.:11:40.

It's the facts, we have had evidence, which is

:11:41.:11:42.

There are investigative journalists who have done some

:11:43.:11:46.

fantastic discovery work, and we know that he cannot have

:11:47.:11:49.

Let's focus on one case, which is actually the one, I think,

:11:50.:11:58.

in which most of the evidence has been accumulated and talked about.

:11:59.:12:02.

It's an interesting one, because obviously the facts

:12:03.:12:04.

Your father befriended the boy, he was a teenager,

:12:05.:12:08.

he was in a children's home and he saw quite a lot

:12:09.:12:13.

of your father, and your father wrote to him, love Greville letters,

:12:14.:12:17.

so there's no question about the relationship.

:12:18.:12:22.

And then this boy said it was a sexual relationship.

:12:23.:12:28.

Do, at the very least, you ever think to yourself,

:12:29.:12:30.

was that a bit weird, that relationship?

:12:31.:12:32.

It's not strange for somebody of dad's generation or for our family.

:12:33.:12:36.

My grandparents, dad's parents, had an open house during the war,

:12:37.:12:40.

so anyone could come and stay with them.

:12:41.:12:47.

We were a family who has a family of sort of history of rescuing

:12:48.:12:51.

people, and dad was fired up with a sense of social justice,

:12:52.:12:53.

and he was just really committed to helping people whose lives

:12:54.:12:56.

And because we have such a loving family, I think dad really fell

:12:57.:13:04.

for people who didn't have a family at all,

:13:05.:13:06.

and were stuck in a children's home, so it seemed, at the

:13:07.:13:09.

Looking back you think, that was naive, risky,

:13:10.:13:16.

courageous, but at the time it just seemed like the right thing to do.

:13:17.:13:19.

It seemed absolutely the right thing to do.

:13:20.:13:29.

One of the facts, and I think it's disputed, is whether or not your

:13:30.:13:32.

father spent the night alone with this chap over some periods.

:13:33.:13:36.

He claims it was at the Holiday Inn in Leicester, with your father,

:13:37.:13:39.

The Scottish case has been looked at, hasn't it?

:13:40.:13:42.

Are you convinced there were no points at which your father

:13:43.:13:48.

actually spent the night with this complainant?

:13:49.:13:52.

I've absolutely no idea, but if he did, it would have been

:13:53.:13:55.

Obviously, we now regret that he put himself in a position

:13:56.:14:02.

where he was open to accusation, but it was done out

:14:03.:14:05.

What do you think of the process now?

:14:06.:14:10.

We've got a country that has obviously become greatly more

:14:11.:14:13.

concerned about these issues than it used to be.

:14:14.:14:16.

Justice Lowell Goddard is leading an inquiry into child abuse,

:14:17.:14:21.

and your father is one stream of this inquiry.

:14:22.:14:25.

It's an outrage, it's an absolute outrage.

:14:26.:14:31.

The other 12 strands are all institutions,

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big institutions - the NHS, the church -

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and there's one strand on one individual who was never convicted,

:14:37.:14:39.

and at the time, at this round of accusations,

:14:40.:14:41.

had severe dementia so couldn't defend himself, and is now dead.

:14:42.:14:45.

It doesn't contain within it the possibility of justice.

:14:46.:14:50.

It goes against everything that the British believe in.

:14:51.:14:53.

There's not the possibility of the other side of

:14:54.:14:55.

It's the people making the accusations' word,

:14:56.:15:02.

against a corpse, which doesn't work.

:15:03.:15:04.

It cannot be just, it cannot be right.

:15:05.:15:07.

The numbers and the persistence of cases and chatter,

:15:08.:15:12.

It's been well described by other people who've been

:15:13.:15:18.

proved false accusations, and they've come out the other end

:15:19.:15:25.

That actually, if you're in a situation where you can make

:15:26.:15:32.

such a serious allegation about someone, and be

:15:33.:15:36.

I mean, frankly you don't have a lot to lose.

:15:37.:15:41.

Justice Lowell Goddard is presumably an intelligent and bright person,

:15:42.:15:43.

and a bit worldwide and who will make judgments about the evidence

:15:44.:15:48.

and isn't just going to hear it all in a completely naive way

:15:49.:15:51.

and just write it down and say, here's what happened.

:15:52.:15:54.

Presumably this is now the first time someone is going, in public,

:15:55.:15:58.

to sit down and pronounce in a kind of objective way, listening to all

:15:59.:16:02.

How can it be all sides of the argument, with dad dead?

:16:03.:16:07.

And also, the individuals can't be cross-examined, because

:16:08.:16:12.

People are being automatically believed, so anyone can

:16:13.:16:20.

come forward and say, this person did this to me,

:16:21.:16:22.

this person did that to me, or Greville Janner did this to me,

:16:23.:16:25.

and will be automatically believed, so the process is grotesque

:16:26.:16:28.

Marion Janner, thank you very much

:16:29.:16:34.

In response to that interview today lawyers for Lord Janner's alleged

:16:35.:16:46.

victim says they cannot have been waiting years for justice.

:16:47.:16:48.

You don't have to go back far to remember Hugo Chavez's Venezuela

:16:49.:16:51.

being hailed as a beacon of socialist success -

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a country that had rejected western imposed neo-liberalism and carved

:16:54.:16:56.

Well, it's not a beacon of anything at the moment.

:16:57.:17:00.

It has gone badly wrong in the post-Chavez years,

:17:01.:17:03.

and they are not keen on people

:17:04.:17:05.

In essence, when oil prices fell, the money ran out.

:17:06.:17:09.

BBC reporter Vladimir Hernandez grew up in Venezuela and has been

:17:10.:17:13.

there with film-maker Greg Brosnan, looking at what that means

:17:14.:17:16.

This is what a trip to the supermarket looks like in Venezuela.

:17:17.:17:31.

A lot of people have come up to us and told us how angry they are,

:17:32.:17:35.

because they've been here for over 12 hours and they've not been able

:17:36.:17:38.

This man in blue warns us, they've seen you.

:17:39.:17:43.

And then we're surrounded by soldiers.

:17:44.:17:55.

Welcome to my country, Venezuela, a country of food queues

:17:56.:17:59.

that the government doesn't want us filming, a country

:18:00.:18:01.

As soon as we get out the car, people have started shouting

:18:02.:18:24.

and telling us that they're hungry, really.

:18:25.:18:29.

They told me they have been protesting for three days

:18:30.:18:31.

Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro faces an economic crisis unlike any

:18:32.:18:56.

The socialist experiment his predecessor, Hugo Chavez,

:18:57.:19:03.

began 17 years ago is failing, triggering massive food

:19:04.:19:05.

Maduro inherited Chavez's socialist experiment,

:19:06.:19:14.

but not the high oil prices that financed his public spending.

:19:15.:19:18.

This man is blind and relies on government food aid.

:19:19.:19:52.

This woman is feeding her baby with sugared water.

:19:53.:19:56.

She said she can't produce breastmilk, she's too malnourished.

:19:57.:20:06.

She was eating three times a day when she took this picture a year

:20:07.:20:09.

ago. There is some food on sale, but most

:20:10.:20:39.

people can't afford to buy it. Venezuela has the highest inflation

:20:40.:20:42.

in the world and it's hitting the poor hardest. The government has

:20:43.:20:46.

made some staples like flour and rice available at pre-inflation

:20:47.:20:51.

prices, but there's not enough to go around. That is the supermarket, and

:20:52.:20:55.

those queues of people, who have been there since the early hours,

:20:56.:21:00.

been told there is flour today. These cues literally go round all of

:21:01.:21:04.

the building, going downstairs into the basement, and then come up again

:21:05.:21:08.

until they are finally able to get into the supermarket, hoping to get

:21:09.:21:15.

flour. President Maduro took over when the long serving President Hugo

:21:16.:21:20.

Chavez died three years ago to stop his popularity has plunged, as many

:21:21.:21:25.

Venezuelans claimed their hunger on his economic mismanagement. The

:21:26.:21:29.

government says it's not to blame, but the victim of an economic war,

:21:30.:21:35.

waged by speculators and foreign powers intent on regime change in

:21:36.:21:36.

Venezuela. This is where the Venezuelan

:21:37.:21:52.

government shows its military strength, with missile launchers,

:21:53.:21:57.

this is a country that rises, but here they are trying to show they

:21:58.:21:58.

are still strong. President Maduro's official term

:21:59.:22:15.

lasts until 2019. A movement is pushing for a referendum and to

:22:16.:22:20.

remove him from office early. For now, Venezuelans will have to wait

:22:21.:22:22.

in line. Vladimir Hernandez reporting,

:22:23.:22:24.

and he was working with There's a longer

:22:25.:22:25.

version on the iPlayer. Look for the Our World documentary

:22:26.:22:29.

series and you'll see You get quite a lot of perks

:22:30.:22:31.

as a Prime Minister - the house, the cat, the opportunity to mingle

:22:32.:22:40.

with world leaders and the chance to pretend you might

:22:41.:22:43.

detonate a nuclear weapon. But you also get some

:22:44.:22:45.

power to bestow honours David Cameron's farewell honours

:22:46.:22:47.

list has been leaked, and it seems an an OBE is in store

:22:48.:22:52.

for Samantha's stylist, and a Companion of Honour

:22:53.:22:55.

for George Osborne. One or two useful funders

:22:56.:22:57.

get a gong, and a few The list has aroused howls

:22:58.:23:00.

of outrage and surprise - although it's hardly the first time

:23:01.:23:03.

a Prime Minister's use the power The basic question is whether it's

:23:04.:23:06.

right the PM should have some slips in a pocket

:23:07.:23:16.

or handbag, to offer people. I'm joined by Lord Bell, Tim Bell,

:23:17.:23:21.

who was knighted in the Thatcher resignation honours and became

:23:22.:23:25.

a peer later on, and writer Good evening to you both. Yasmin,

:23:26.:23:39.

you had an MBE at one stage? I did. It's one of the things I most

:23:40.:23:45.

regret, accepting. I did return it over the Iraq war. It's so easy, I

:23:46.:23:52.

can't describe to you how easy it is to feel incredibly, foolishly

:23:53.:23:55.

flattered. That you will be more precious and important than the

:23:56.:24:01.

others. And MBE as well? Yes, but even so, it's so easy, so I do

:24:02.:24:05.

understand what it means. Did it mean a lot to you, when you got the

:24:06.:24:11.

knighthood in that that Shell resignation, what did that mean to

:24:12.:24:16.

you? I was extremely grateful. And very flattered, and it meant a great

:24:17.:24:22.

deal to me, it still does. It didn't mean anything to anybody else, but

:24:23.:24:27.

so what? What did you get it for, do you think? I got it for services to

:24:28.:24:35.

the former Prime Minister. I worked for her for 15 years, for nothing

:24:36.:24:40.

and I thoroughly enjoyed myself, I had a wonderful time. I met lots of

:24:41.:24:45.

people I liked, I had a great time, I was given a night to it, I was

:24:46.:24:49.

very proud of it, I Worrallo with pride and I will continue to do so.

:24:50.:24:53.

I'm interested. It seemed right that she should express her gratitude in

:24:54.:25:02.

some way. A handwritten note would be... I suppose the controversy is

:25:03.:25:05.

whether the Prime Minister should have the power to use our honour,

:25:06.:25:10.

our respect and bestow that upon you with a public,. Would you think of

:25:11.:25:16.

that? It seems a bit strange, really. You were working for her as

:25:17.:25:21.

a political ally. Yes? As an adviser, actually. Yes, I don't

:25:22.:25:26.

think it means anything at all. It's like being given a box of

:25:27.:25:31.

chocolates. It doesn't carry any weight whatsoever. The peerage is

:25:32.:25:37.

slightly different, because I get a chance to speak in the legislature

:25:38.:25:41.

and I can help pass laws and end laws, its a different concept. I was

:25:42.:25:49.

a elected as a peer, which means have a vote in the House of Lords,

:25:50.:25:52.

and that's another job, and I get paid for it. That's different. How

:25:53.:26:01.

outrageous is it, do you think about the Prime Minister does have this

:26:02.:26:05.

right? Prime ministers need to get things done, basically. This is like

:26:06.:26:09.

billionaires getting goody bags, it's like that. Lord Bell was very

:26:10.:26:18.

successful and had a lot of power and a lot of influence. Why did you

:26:19.:26:24.

need this damp, this goody bag, on top of it? And it isn't personal.

:26:25.:26:29.

Like I said, I didn't want to take it but I was enormously flattered. I

:26:30.:26:34.

understand. It's just wrong for any political leader to use it as a gift

:26:35.:26:42.

bag for their friends. Lord Bell? You say it was impersonal, it was

:26:43.:26:46.

entirely personal. It was given to me in her resignation less. No me,

:26:47.:26:51.

I'm not being personal. I just want to push you on this, Yasmin Alibai

:26:52.:26:54.

Brown, the argument has been put this is the least corrupt way of

:26:55.:27:00.

Prime Minister 's rewarding loyalty and being nice to friends, and if

:27:01.:27:03.

you take away these little things they can give away then you start

:27:04.:27:09.

getting brown envelopes. Most people who get these are incredibly

:27:10.:27:12.

powerful and many of them are incredibly rich. They don't need

:27:13.:27:17.

anything extra. Look, I don't know of a single care worker who is a

:27:18.:27:25.

Dame, there isn't one. They go to certain kinds of people. I own

:27:26.:27:29.

means, the political parties can have their own reward system, they

:27:30.:27:33.

can take them on holidays, that's fine. We're talking about the

:27:34.:27:36.

difference between the political parties and the nation and we need

:27:37.:27:40.

something that doesn't have a stench bust up Lord Bal, the question is...

:27:41.:27:50.

Stench? I am not worth anything. And I don't have fortunes of money and

:27:51.:27:54.

everything I've got I worked for. None of it was given to me by

:27:55.:28:04.

anybody. You can have the envy argument, but it is pointless. In

:28:05.:28:09.

your experience, does actually motivate people? A backbench MP,

:28:10.:28:13.

been a bit of a troublemaker in the past and then the Prime Minister

:28:14.:28:17.

wants you to come onside and come on matey Foster explained to me how it

:28:18.:28:24.

works? Is it explicit? I don't recognise the example you gave me.

:28:25.:28:29.

I'm sure it can be imagined, I'm sure people can dream it up, but I'm

:28:30.:28:34.

not aware of it. I wasn't a troublesome backbencher, I was very

:28:35.:28:38.

much at the forefront of the campaign is, and I got rewarded for

:28:39.:28:42.

the things I've done. I was very grateful for it. I thought it was a

:28:43.:28:50.

very nice gesture by Mrs Thatcher and the people who approved it. It

:28:51.:28:53.

doesn't make any difference what anybody else says, it won't make any

:28:54.:28:57.

difference to how proud I am. That's fine, but there is a very serious

:28:58.:29:01.

argument to be had here. People still like to think there is no

:29:02.:29:04.

corruption in Britain. There are subtle forms of corruption. I

:29:05.:29:08.

personally know of people, two men who played paper money and got an

:29:09.:29:14.

MBE and then got a higher something and then got into the Lords. It was

:29:15.:29:18.

a very systematic thing. And it worked. Now there is something wrong

:29:19.:29:22.

here. I like them very much as individuals, but there is something

:29:23.:29:25.

wrong, where there is this perception that things can be

:29:26.:29:29.

bought, these things can be bought. In fairness we have known this for

:29:30.:29:33.

quite a while going back to the 1920s. You know that you don't need

:29:34.:29:41.

to respect Lord Bell and his honour, but if you want to you can. We need

:29:42.:29:47.

a good, clean, honours system which isn't dependent on patronage from

:29:48.:29:51.

the political leaders and I would go further, that not even patronage

:29:52.:29:55.

from the Royal family. It needs to be independent, it needs to be

:29:56.:29:58.

something that everybody feels they can get.

:29:59.:30:03.

Lord Bell enjoy your Hon hours. I don't have the faintest, how you

:30:04.:30:11.

create the system. We need to leave it there. Thank you both.

:30:12.:30:15.

You know it's August by the way, not just because it's been raining,

:30:16.:30:19.

but because we're down to a shorter duration for 30 minutes

:30:20.:30:21.

The Government announced today that the license fee will be

:30:22.:30:25.

extended to the iPlayer from September 1st.

:30:26.:30:27.

We're not quite sure if the semi-mythical TV detector

:30:28.:30:29.

vans will be able to enforce this, or if indeed they still exist.

:30:30.:30:32.

Yes, there is a TV set at No 5. It is in the front room. And they're

:30:33.:30:54.

watching Columbo. If you don't have a TV licence it won't take us long

:30:55.:30:57.

to find you.

:30:58.:30:58.

Will Labour split? Greville Janner's daughter defends her father. Plus a look at the food queues of Venezuela and Cameron's honours.

With Evan Davis.


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