Evan Davis discusses the future of UKIP as it prepares to select a new leader and asks when should a medical mistake mean a jail sentence?
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If the ordinary decent people are prepared to stand up and fight for
what they believe in, we can overcome the big banks! We can
overcome the multinationals! CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
And we did it, we made June 23 our Independence Day when we smashed the
establishment! You'll either find the scene
exhilarating or terrifying. with populists simply exploiting
public discontent? to talk about the people
versus the establishment. as it prepares
to select a new leader. I'm a working-class lad
who works in a supermarket But also I've got other
experiences in my life. I've ran a small wrestling
promotion business. Also tonight, John Sweeney
amid the aftershocks and distress When should a fatal mistake
mean a jail sentence? And it is this open and just culture
of learning from mistakes which I think is under threat
by rising criminal prosecution. Two politicians - neither has been
elected into government but both have had an electrifying effect
on their national politics. Maybe you can call the creed
"antiestablishmentarianism". Not the longest word
in the dictionary, Many on the side of Brexit
will want to distance themselves from Nigel Farage
linking their views But there is insurrection
in the air. There are millions
of ordinary Americans who've been let down,
who've had a bad time. Who feel the political
class in Washington Who feel so many
of their representatives are politically correct parts
of that liberal media elite. They feel people aren't standing up
for them and they've actually in many cases given up
on the whole electoral process. I think that you have
a fantastic opportunity here. There's no doubt the phenomenon
goes well beyond the UK and US, and politicians are struggling to
keep up, ride the wave or resist it. In numerous countries to the east,
populist leaders have won elections. In France right now,
we're seeing a former President, Nicolas Sarkozy, run for office,
picking up some of the nationalist message of the anti-establishment
National Front. The great divide seems
less about left or right, more about two cultures,
a socially liberal, urban one who think the system has been
rigged against the ordinary. Should we welcome the scene
we saw last night? In a moment,
we will explore in detail where Ukip is headed
in this country. Joining me now are Douglas Carswell,
the Ukip MP, and Claire Fox of the think-tank
the Institute of Ideas. This is the difficulty, I think they
are right that something is going on, and seeing them together, people
are rising up, there is an antiestablishment mood, and when
Brexit happened, it was against all the odds, it was having had all the
big guns, the whole of the establishment threaten, bully and
say, if you do this, and it was assumed, of course, that people
would do what they were told. And they didn't, and so on AdSense Nigel
Farage has got a point, and Trump does something similar. You could
see how they are bedfellows. Putting them together as bedfellows,
immediately everyone thinks she is to the right of Genghis Khan, on the
side of Trump. What did you think, Donald? I am a bit puzzle and
bemused that the party of Abraham Lincoln has managed to select as its
candidate a thin-skinned narcissist who launched his bid for the White
House by implying most Mexicans were murderers. I think it is
extraordinary. The fact that someone like that can get so far tells me
there is something seriously wrong with politics in the Beltway, in
Washington, DC. How is it that a man like that can get so far? Clearly,
people are voting for legitimate reasons, they feel a legitimate
sense of anger against the political cartel, but I am not certain that
Donald Trump is the answer! Nigel Farage and him linking the cause
which you have been a champ in for many years, Brexit, Saint Brexit,
Trump, this is all the same thing. -- saying. It is not the same thing.
If the vote leave campaign, of which Nigel was no part, had put forward
what you might call shock and awe tactics, I think we would have lost
70-30 in Plaxton. Is there something a bit funny about Nigel Farage
standing talking about the little people, standing next to a
billionaire property developer buying his way into the election? It
seems so... All these contradictions. Something that
people have to understand is that there has been a sneer by the
establishment for some time, a sneer about people's lives, about their
capacities, about their abilities, and so we can say we do not
understand this, he is defending the billionaires. But actually it was
the billionaires who lined up against the people, and the people
said, we have thought about this, we want some control. Just a final
word, because Douglas made the point, why have they got Trump in
the first place? It doesn't matter what is politics, they have lost
control of their party because they have got no ideology, and he
represents that. One of the reasons that Trump has proved so popular is,
being independently wealthy, he is not in the pocket of vested
interests. Apps we should look at the lobbyist who have not only
stitched up democracy in America but have done the same through the EU.
Oliver, these two have found reasons to be exhilarated, did you? I would
not have interpreted Douglas's comments as exhilaration so much as
sensitivity. He's found his former party leader extolling the benefits
of someone who Douglas quite rightly describes as a thin-skinned
narcissists. That is a meeting of minds, and I used the term mind in
the most generic, rather than descriptive sense. This is a
populist stand for, purportedly, people who have lost out through the
forces of globalisation, but as you rightly implied, but they are,
respectively, a billionaire and a public schoolboy. Claire is going to
use the word sneering, I will use it on her behalf. Do ride may be the
operative word. Should we not take take exception to the idea that this
is the rednecks against the elite, on the contrary, the elite have
rigged the monetary policy to make sure that people with assets become
richer, they have rigged the banking system, the political system. It is
not free trade globalist against protectionist rednecks, it is
ordinary people rising up against people who have rigged the economic
system in the interest of a small cartel. Not rigged at all. The
single market is a rigged the system. Wedged within that obloquy
is one single, reputable point, which is that monetary policy, the
conduct of monetary policy since the financial crash has benefited those
who own assets, rather than those who are dependent on incomes. That
widening of inequality is extremely dangerous. Bad point is a point on
which you will all agree, something has gone wrong and something needs
to be done about it. Things and would have been worse without it. It
also misses the point that this is not only about economics. There is
this notion that everybody voted for Brexit, this idea, it is like, they
are poor people who have not done very well out of the system. I
think, again, that is not a sneer, but it is a condescension
nonetheless. It is a sense that the poor people, maybe we need to help
them out economically. The reason I say that is because I think it was
more political than that. I think what we are underestimating here be
that the establishment parties on left and right have collapsed, we
are in a new phase historical, we do not know where it is going to go, it
is scary, and the only people who are saying we have had enough of
that, we're asserting ourselves. The rise of these radical movements
throughout the world, it is not a rejection of modernity by these
people. It is an expression of modernity, they do not have to live
their lives according to the ideas of remote incompetents, people who
cannot control borders. Oliver, you wrote a piece in the Times today
saying that trade, globalisation, the stuff that people complain
about, a lot of them do complain about it, it has delivered more than
perhaps people recognise. It is a tremendously productive system, the
system of economic openness. It has losers, you cannot have the sort of
economic creativity, this productivity, without endangering
national sovereignty, it rode in national sovereignty, and
endangering some domestic industries and their workforces. The task of
economic and social policy is to ensure that those who are left
behind are compensated, even though the net benefit. He is very
substantially positive. Folk are not angry because they have cheaper
mobile phones, but because monetary policy means that houses are no
longer affordable for young people. It is a lack of the free market that
has caused this extraordinarily unfair monetary policy that has
enriched a small queue and left the rest are unable to afford it. It is
impossible to imagine that people could be excited about the
possibility of creating an economic policy... Well, tell us what it is,
because where is the beacon country that you would look to? By the
populist have taken over and delivered nirvana? This is what is
ironic, people will say to me, you know, all of our people in policy,
we have been working with the EU, coming up with policies, anyone
would think that the British economy had not been sluggish for some time.
It is not as though it has been thriving. I am suggesting that
delivering a modern, dynamic economy is not beyond... We can do it as a
society, and possibly to save this is it, there is no alternative, we
get what we are given, which is what we have been told, this is the end
of it. We can be more creative and exciting. We are told we live in a
free market capitalist system, but we have a system where capital is
allocated not on the basis of a pricing mechanism but on the fiat of
central bankers, it cannot hold. Do any of you think that Trump and
Farage, between them, have, if you like, ideas... You have mentioned
infrastructure spending, everyone is in favour of that now! But do they
have specific things? No, they have not, it is a nonsense. Their
political campaign, which is supposedly for the expropriated and
those left behind is more an intellectual obscurity, it is
anti-democratic, anti-science, and it is nativist and basically
xenophobic. Which are under estimate what is going on with things like
Podemos and ... Playing anger back people does not help, you have to
look at what the great reformers did, Thatcher and Reagan, they
offered a better way. If we caricature this movement, it will
become worse, it we will be even more metropolitan elite. I'm going
to thank both of you, we will be back with you in a moment.
Well, Nigel Farage continues to be a talking point here,
but a test of the long-term impact of his politics is
The party has to carry the torch he has lit
The leadership election is well under way, but I guess most people
would struggle to pick any of the candidates
The better known ones, Susanne Evans, Paul Nuttall,
Steven Woolfe, are not on the ballot paper.
We'll come back and talk to Douglas about the future
of his party in a few minutes, but first the film-maker
Nick Blakemore has gone behind the scenes,
trying to get to know the candidates who are in the running
It is a bit like a wedding, isn't it? Yeah, it is.
Some of these events have been very, very well attended,
Nice to see you, Bill, how are you doing, all right?
Better journey today, beautiful location as well.
It is a really nice location, really nice.
And like I say, the lectern looks fantastic,
As I understand it, Diane's campaign team have decided that she's better
distancing herself from us and doing her own thing.
I think it's quite an insult to the membership and totally
I think Diane is disrespecting the members by not coming
to these events, you know, I like Diane, I get on very
well with Diane, I think she's a great person.
But I think it would be better if she was here.
The message tonight is that I am there with Westminster behind me,
which is obviously a massive part of Ukip.
First of all, you shouldn't be ashamed to say you love your
country, and one of the reasons why I love our country is because
it's the home of democracy and freedom of the people
means no more of the establishment telling us what to do,
no big state control, allowing people the freedom
What I'm hoping to get out of it is just meeting the members,
for those who haven't met me in the first 14 or 15 months.
So just getting to know them again, getting them to understand
that I really am grassroots, but, equally, I'm very much
a leader with management and team-building experience.
So I've got a lot to offer, but it's not going to be
about the Lisa show, it will be about the team involved.
Core message is leadership, management, team building,
and the future of Ukip is grassroots and councillors.
You don't answer the phone when you've got a boy!
Ten seconds left, I shall start ringing my glass furiously
so that they know they are close to being out of time.
I shall just take my seat, and then we'll call
The current Labour scheme seems to be internationalist,
anti-monarchy, anti-armed forces, and anti-Judaeo-Christian.
We offer the absolute opposite to that, and I think
and could be a complete shoo-in for the old Labour areas,
but we need to get out there and say hello!
We've got to go and say hello so they're not frightened of us.
They've heard through the Labour machine that we are the big
bogeymen who hate them and hate everything...
I think the big thing we need to do in this party that needs to be
communication, communication, communication.
I think I'm someone who's got real-life experience,
I'm a working-class lad, you know, who works in a supermarket,
But also I've got other experiences in my life,
you know, I ran a small wrestling promotion business.
There's a video in the public domain where you are quoted as saying,
I think, "I'm better than you, cleverer than you,
and more importantly I've got more money than you."
Yes, that's wrestling character interviews.
understand anything about that at all.
What I would say is wrestling characters are actors, you know,
You know, we wouldn't get Leonardo DiCaprio and hauled over
the coals about character comments that the Wolf Of Wall Street
I don't want to tell people what they should or shouldn't wear,
but if somebody wearing a crash helmet, a hoodie or a balaclava
is asked to show their face, then the same should apply
I do worry sometimes about the way this comes across,
and I think when we get into these issues, I think a lot of the time
Where we must never go is singling out one part of the community,
one faith, and singling them out for special attention.
You talked in the speech about demonising people,
was it wise to pose for photographs with two knitted golliwogs?
That was way back when, and actually the whole reason
for that was part of a campaign against political correctness.
Every time now I try and talk policy, I end up talking
People find those images grossly offensive.
and frankly if anyone is offended by an image of a doll,
I'd suggest to them they need to get out a bit more.
The hustings are a complete waste of time.
they've descended into what I call a bun fight, and it's just not...
But anyway, look, you must let me move on.
Can I just ask you a few questions?
Can you just tell me very quickly what you are not
I've developed my own strategy, and in fact that gentleman
I was just speaking to a few minutes ago was congratulating
Your leadership colleagues said to me last night that, "Diane,
I think what your actually voicing is more just
what I've got used to now, which is the sort of insult
and really quite unpleasant behaviour that is coming back
I haven't adopted that tactic, I'm trying to rise above it,
I'm appealing to my members and activists to come
and hear what I've got to say, put me on the spot with questions,
and if that is not actually being a team player
and showing leadership, I really don't know what is.
In case you were wondering why we didn't hear more from Diane James
about the substance of her campaign there,
Newsnight wasn't allowed to film her event once it started.
Let's talk about your party, we have done the big picture. Are you happy
with the range of candidates? I think it would have been better if
we had some slightly taller poppies but not all of the taller ones made
it onto the ballot paper for various reasons, some self-inflicted and
some inflicted by others but this is a huge opportunity, this is the
possibility of running the third largest party in the country and it
is potentially a massive opportunity, look at the state of
the Labour Party in meltdown, the lib -- Liberal Democrats are on a
holiday from history and they may never come back and if we need to
seize this opportunity we need a leader or changes the tone quite
dramatically. And also has a much bigger policy repertoire. Who is
that? You have not endorsed anyone. I did not always get on particularly
well with the last leader and I will make a special effort to get on with
the new one! I owe it to support whoever the members vote for. You
owe it to the members to tell them who you think should not have the
job, you have outlined a job description for who should fit the
bill and let us be honest, Bill Etheridge, that chap once a
referendum on the death penalty, he described Hitler as a magnetic,
forceful leader. There is no way that you could say he is your... The
way I would put this is, I think Bill demonstrated this, if you talk
about things that he has talked about, it does not really matter
what you say, it is not what you say, it is what people here and that
needs to change. One of the reasons we only managed to win one single
seat at the General Election and why we haemorrhaged one third of
supporters is because we used shock and offal tactics and they put up a
lot of swing voters. In one of your blogs you said one of the questions
are leaders need to answer is what is Ukip for? Good question, you will
offer Brexit? What are you for? We have the EU cartel, that group at
the top of the upper echelons of Whitehall but there are cartels in
the nooks and crannies of the lives of people, look at the family court
system, Monetary Policy Committee the banking system, these are
cartels that need to be broken and politics itself in this country, one
of the reasons there is this mood of anti-politics anger is politics is
basically a rigged system. We think of it as competitive, in most seats
in this country there is no real contest as to who will be the next
Member of Parliament, people are parachuted in, people like George
Osborne or Ed Miliband, when he ran, people want different politics when
those they sent to parliament actually answer to the voters. Open
primary candidate selection. You want political reform. I was on
fire, Bill described Hitler as a magnetic, forceful leader, not
speaker. The truth is, the party you describe, the reformist agenda, is
not actually the same as the Ukip one. Is it important for British
politics to have Ukip party rather like the Nigel Farage Ukip party and
which represents a strand of UK opinion and has given voice to a lot
of people. You are in a different place. The results of the last
election spoke for themselves. I did not bang on about Europe and
immigration, I made a point of saying that first and second
generation Britons were as much a part of this country as anyone else.
If you play the anger of people back at them, you don't aggregate votes
and win seats. We desperately need a party that can break this cosy
cartel. Are you just getting in the way of Ukip? As Ukip members want
the party to be? By banging on about the things you are banging on about
rather than what they want? I think the reason things have gone wrong in
politics is and is not enough radical liberalism and Ukip could be
the vehicle to break these vested interest and cartels that
non-politics for their convenience. It could certainly sees that. If
Ukip tries to become a British version of some of those angry
nativist parties in continental Europe, it will rightly fail and it
would deserve to. And you would have to leave? If the leader to get in
that direction? The Parliamentary party would take a vote on that.
Douglas Carswell, thank you very much indeed.
In the earthquake struck region of Italy, there were the all too
And, I'm afraid, also there was the predicted rise
Victims have been identified from numerous countries -
we know from local officials that at least three British
Five Romanians and at least one Spanish person are also known
One Polish woman who was in Amatrice and survived described
"I will remember till the end of my life this noise,
the evil murmur of moving walls", she said.
Well, our reporter John Sweeney was in nearby Perugia
when the quake struck, you might have heard him
He's been looking at the aftermath today.
After the quake come the after-shocks.
Tremors of the earth and of the heart.
This woman's family home is in Pescara, a little town on a
Her whole family was in the house when the quake struck.
Her aunt and uncle are still missing.
This entire hillside, all these people's homes,
crashing down, masonry, bricks, rocks, concrete, boulders.
Imagine how much noise that must have made while the whole
In Pescara, 17 dead is the official count.
Locals fear many more may have perished.
The first people to turn up at many sites like best are are not police
or firemen but volunteer rescue workers. How many people died? We
don't know. Because the city had many inhabitants for the summer
holiday. People coming back. I talked to a person who lived here
and is said to me that there was about half of the city full of
people inside. On the other side of the river, rescue work continues
while hopes of finding survivors face. One person told the BBC that
at least three British citizens were amongst those killed.
Geologically, it is tearing itself apart.
The tectonic plates underneath the central mountain chain,
Earthquakes that kill people in their hundreds
But will the quake that did for Pescara cause
Some may use the quake as ammunition against
Prime Minister Renzi, who faces a tricky referendum
later this year and may go the way of our own David Cameron.
But in 12 months which has seen a chain of terror attacks,
the earthquake in Italy is a reminder that nature, too,
can be a mass killer of the utmost cruelty.
The Labour Party has a small problem - you knew that.
This, though, is about their conference next month.
They don't have anyone to do the security.
Our policy editor, Chris Cook, is with me.
Chris, this all started with Labour saying we don't want to use G4S, we
are boycotting them, and they have done it in the past. That is right,
so this was a slightly unusual beating last year of the NEC, where
they decided they wouldn't use G4S, their long-standing security
partner, for security at the conference, which is quite a big
operation. There are lots of scanners. This was unusual for a few
reasons. First, it was because, as you say, G4S invested in Israel.
Labour does not have a position of being against companies who do that,
it is not boycotting, but the NEC in this case decided that it would. G4S
had already announced they were going to pull out of Israel, so
having used them for many years when they were investing in Israel,
slightly peculiar timing. But it has left them without a partner to do
the security. So they went to another company, which were
involved, but unfortunately, in an industrial dispute with the GMB, a
major union affiliated to Labour, and that meant they had the prospect
of their own security officers being picketed by their union. That is not
going to work! So that would not have worked. So where does that
leave them? Plan C is they go back to G4S, and they have said no, we do
not have time to do it. So they have to come up with something else, plan
D, we will call it. It is likely, given the enormous political
embarrassment of a party that cannot put on its own conference, given
they have got lots of money, not least from the leadership contest,
it is likely they will come up with a solution, it would be unimaginable
for them not to be able to hold the conference. But it is the latest
example of things not going right for the Labour Party, when it rains,
it pours in politics. Tomorrow at a court in Ipswich,
a judge will hand down a sentence on an optometrist
who has been found guilty The conviction is one
of manslaughter by gross negligence. a dangerous condition
in the boy's eyes, and because it went unnoticed,
the boy went untreated, although rarely with such
a ghastly consequence, but some professionals worry
that there is no clear line between an understandable mistake
and an appalling act of negligence. Secunder Kermani reports
on the debate over how far professionals
should be held responsible In court, prosecutors said
there were obvious abnormalities in both of eight-year-old
Vinnie Barker's eyes. That should have led
to an urgent referral to treat The jury found that his optometrist,
Honey Rose's conduct Each is based on unique
circumstances and each one But they do raise questions
about how we deal with fatal In one of the most high profile
cases, surgeon David Sellu was found Following that conviction,
a group of 300 doctors wrote a letter raising concerns
about what they claim are increasing incidents of doctors
being investigated That increase is disputed and
we are talking about low numbers. Since December 2014 there have been
13 prosecutions that we know of relating to the deaths
of seven patients. A number had been dismissed by
judges before even reaching a jury. There has been a big push that
all health workers should declare and be open and honest
about mistakes and that when something goes wrong,
as it does in healthcare, they should talk openly
with relatives and patients Because what we know is,
that is the thing that And it is this open and just culture
of learning from mistakes which I think is under threat
by rising criminal prosecution. Bethany Bowen was five years old
when she died during an operation. Surgeons had decided to use
a new piece of equipment that had never been used before
on a child in the UK. Her mother says that criminal
prosecutions should only ever be considered when it is clear
the individual is at fault, It is the wider culture and that
needs to be looked at more carefully But if the doctor turns up
and blatantly disregards the rules and the culture and environment
and doesn't listen to the people around him when they are telling
him, maybe, actually stop, don't do this -
then that is when the doctor needs The CPS defines gross
negligence manslaughter as... It says the defendant
must not have done what a reasonable person
would do in their position. This is a law that applies
to everyone, private individuals Construction industries or engineers
or architects or even people Everyone has to be held to account
if they are undertaking an activity where there is a risk to others,
and so the question has to be asked as to whether healthcare
professions should be treated during what was meant to be
a routine operation. But he thinks the medical profession
needs to learn lessons from how mistakes are looked at in other
fields, like aviation and rail. Most safety-critical industries
aspire one where you look at a situation
and say, was this inadvertent human error where we can help to redesign
a system to help make it better? Or was it some form of recklessness
or gross negligence? And that doesn't matter, really,
whether we're talking about a front-line individual
or a senior executive. How do you draw that line between
what is inadvertent human error So, the line, the idea of a hard
line between inadvertent human error and gross negligence actually
doesn't really exist. the jury took just two hours
to convict his optometrist. For them, in this case
the line was completely clear. In a statement,
Vinnie's parents told us... The CPS say the threshold for
prosecutions of gross negligence manslaughter is extremely high
and most cases never reach court. For some, these cases
are about accountability For others, they could risk
leaving the workforce Secunder Kermani there. A little
look at the newspapers before we go, the Times leading on an interesting
story about changing Britain, Poles now Britain's biggest migrant group,
overtaking Indians, who always arriving with the Irish. EU migrants
have topped 3 million for the first time. The Guardian leads an NHS
plans to fight the deficit with cuts, hospital bosses running up
plans for closures. The Daily Telegraph takes the same story, NHS
takes axe to hospital units and tells us that grammar schools have
bucked the falling trend in GCSEs. The Daily Mirror leads and the
Italian earthquake and news that a British boy is lost in what they
call quake horror. Well, that's almost all
we've got time for tonight, but all this week we've been treated
to a piece of the Proms. The Multi Storey Orchestra
will be playing, but, you've guessed it,
in a municipal car park in Peckham. That's on Saturday 3rd September,
and they'll be live on Radio 3 then. But tonight here for us
from the orchestra a version of Fugue from Violin
Sonata in G minor on the marimba. MUSIC: Fugue from Violin Sonata
in G Minor by Bach Good evening. It has been a mixed
sort of day, Thursday, some sunshine, overnight heavy downpours
and thunderstorms. By the time we get to