25/08/2016 Newsnight


25/08/2016

Evan Davis discusses the future of UKIP as it prepares to select a new leader and asks when should a medical mistake mean a jail sentence?


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 25/08/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

If the ordinary decent people are prepared to stand up and fight for

:00:08.:00:13.

what they believe in, we can overcome the big banks! We can

:00:14.:00:19.

overcome the multinationals! CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:00:20.:00:26.

And we did it, we made June 23 our Independence Day when we smashed the

:00:27.:00:27.

establishment! You'll either find the scene

:00:28.:00:29.

exhilarating or terrifying. with populists simply exploiting

:00:30.:00:33.

public discontent? to talk about the people

:00:34.:00:39.

versus the establishment. as it prepares

:00:40.:00:44.

to select a new leader. I'm a working-class lad

:00:45.:00:50.

who works in a supermarket But also I've got other

:00:51.:00:53.

experiences in my life. I've ran a small wrestling

:00:54.:00:56.

promotion business. Also tonight, John Sweeney

:00:57.:01:01.

amid the aftershocks and distress When should a fatal mistake

:01:02.:01:04.

mean a jail sentence? And it is this open and just culture

:01:05.:01:15.

of learning from mistakes which I think is under threat

:01:16.:01:19.

by rising criminal prosecution. Two politicians - neither has been

:01:20.:01:32.

elected into government but both have had an electrifying effect

:01:33.:01:36.

on their national politics. Maybe you can call the creed

:01:37.:01:40.

"antiestablishmentarianism". Not the longest word

:01:41.:01:44.

in the dictionary, Many on the side of Brexit

:01:45.:01:45.

will want to distance themselves from Nigel Farage

:01:46.:01:51.

linking their views But there is insurrection

:01:52.:01:53.

in the air. There are millions

:01:54.:01:58.

of ordinary Americans who've been let down,

:01:59.:02:04.

who've had a bad time. Who feel the political

:02:05.:02:07.

class in Washington Who feel so many

:02:08.:02:08.

of their representatives are politically correct parts

:02:09.:02:15.

of that liberal media elite. They feel people aren't standing up

:02:16.:02:18.

for them and they've actually in many cases given up

:02:19.:02:21.

on the whole electoral process. I think that you have

:02:22.:02:24.

a fantastic opportunity here. There's no doubt the phenomenon

:02:25.:02:29.

goes well beyond the UK and US, and politicians are struggling to

:02:30.:02:44.

keep up, ride the wave or resist it. In numerous countries to the east,

:02:45.:02:47.

populist leaders have won elections. In France right now,

:02:48.:02:52.

we're seeing a former President, Nicolas Sarkozy, run for office,

:02:53.:02:58.

picking up some of the nationalist message of the anti-establishment

:02:59.:03:00.

National Front. The great divide seems

:03:01.:03:09.

less about left or right, more about two cultures,

:03:10.:03:12.

a socially liberal, urban one who think the system has been

:03:13.:03:16.

rigged against the ordinary. Should we welcome the scene

:03:17.:03:21.

we saw last night? In a moment,

:03:22.:03:27.

we will explore in detail where Ukip is headed

:03:28.:03:29.

in this country. Joining me now are Douglas Carswell,

:03:30.:03:31.

the Ukip MP, and Claire Fox of the think-tank

:03:32.:03:35.

the Institute of Ideas. This is the difficulty, I think they

:03:36.:04:00.

are right that something is going on, and seeing them together, people

:04:01.:04:08.

are rising up, there is an antiestablishment mood, and when

:04:09.:04:11.

Brexit happened, it was against all the odds, it was having had all the

:04:12.:04:16.

big guns, the whole of the establishment threaten, bully and

:04:17.:04:21.

say, if you do this, and it was assumed, of course, that people

:04:22.:04:24.

would do what they were told. And they didn't, and so on AdSense Nigel

:04:25.:04:29.

Farage has got a point, and Trump does something similar. You could

:04:30.:04:35.

see how they are bedfellows. Putting them together as bedfellows,

:04:36.:04:42.

immediately everyone thinks she is to the right of Genghis Khan, on the

:04:43.:04:48.

side of Trump. What did you think, Donald? I am a bit puzzle and

:04:49.:04:52.

bemused that the party of Abraham Lincoln has managed to select as its

:04:53.:04:56.

candidate a thin-skinned narcissist who launched his bid for the White

:04:57.:05:01.

House by implying most Mexicans were murderers. I think it is

:05:02.:05:04.

extraordinary. The fact that someone like that can get so far tells me

:05:05.:05:08.

there is something seriously wrong with politics in the Beltway, in

:05:09.:05:13.

Washington, DC. How is it that a man like that can get so far? Clearly,

:05:14.:05:18.

people are voting for legitimate reasons, they feel a legitimate

:05:19.:05:21.

sense of anger against the political cartel, but I am not certain that

:05:22.:05:27.

Donald Trump is the answer! Nigel Farage and him linking the cause

:05:28.:05:30.

which you have been a champ in for many years, Brexit, Saint Brexit,

:05:31.:05:36.

Trump, this is all the same thing. -- saying. It is not the same thing.

:05:37.:05:42.

If the vote leave campaign, of which Nigel was no part, had put forward

:05:43.:05:47.

what you might call shock and awe tactics, I think we would have lost

:05:48.:05:54.

70-30 in Plaxton. Is there something a bit funny about Nigel Farage

:05:55.:05:57.

standing talking about the little people, standing next to a

:05:58.:06:00.

billionaire property developer buying his way into the election? It

:06:01.:06:06.

seems so... All these contradictions. Something that

:06:07.:06:11.

people have to understand is that there has been a sneer by the

:06:12.:06:18.

establishment for some time, a sneer about people's lives, about their

:06:19.:06:21.

capacities, about their abilities, and so we can say we do not

:06:22.:06:26.

understand this, he is defending the billionaires. But actually it was

:06:27.:06:29.

the billionaires who lined up against the people, and the people

:06:30.:06:33.

said, we have thought about this, we want some control. Just a final

:06:34.:06:37.

word, because Douglas made the point, why have they got Trump in

:06:38.:06:42.

the first place? It doesn't matter what is politics, they have lost

:06:43.:06:54.

control of their party because they have got no ideology, and he

:06:55.:06:57.

represents that. One of the reasons that Trump has proved so popular is,

:06:58.:07:00.

being independently wealthy, he is not in the pocket of vested

:07:01.:07:02.

interests. Apps we should look at the lobbyist who have not only

:07:03.:07:06.

stitched up democracy in America but have done the same through the EU.

:07:07.:07:13.

Oliver, these two have found reasons to be exhilarated, did you? I would

:07:14.:07:18.

not have interpreted Douglas's comments as exhilaration so much as

:07:19.:07:22.

sensitivity. He's found his former party leader extolling the benefits

:07:23.:07:30.

of someone who Douglas quite rightly describes as a thin-skinned

:07:31.:07:33.

narcissists. That is a meeting of minds, and I used the term mind in

:07:34.:07:37.

the most generic, rather than descriptive sense. This is a

:07:38.:07:46.

populist stand for, purportedly, people who have lost out through the

:07:47.:07:51.

forces of globalisation, but as you rightly implied, but they are,

:07:52.:07:55.

respectively, a billionaire and a public schoolboy. Claire is going to

:07:56.:08:03.

use the word sneering, I will use it on her behalf. Do ride may be the

:08:04.:08:12.

operative word. Should we not take take exception to the idea that this

:08:13.:08:16.

is the rednecks against the elite, on the contrary, the elite have

:08:17.:08:20.

rigged the monetary policy to make sure that people with assets become

:08:21.:08:25.

richer, they have rigged the banking system, the political system. It is

:08:26.:08:28.

not free trade globalist against protectionist rednecks, it is

:08:29.:08:32.

ordinary people rising up against people who have rigged the economic

:08:33.:08:36.

system in the interest of a small cartel. Not rigged at all. The

:08:37.:08:42.

single market is a rigged the system. Wedged within that obloquy

:08:43.:08:50.

is one single, reputable point, which is that monetary policy, the

:08:51.:08:55.

conduct of monetary policy since the financial crash has benefited those

:08:56.:08:59.

who own assets, rather than those who are dependent on incomes. That

:09:00.:09:05.

widening of inequality is extremely dangerous. Bad point is a point on

:09:06.:09:10.

which you will all agree, something has gone wrong and something needs

:09:11.:09:14.

to be done about it. Things and would have been worse without it. It

:09:15.:09:22.

also misses the point that this is not only about economics. There is

:09:23.:09:27.

this notion that everybody voted for Brexit, this idea, it is like, they

:09:28.:09:35.

are poor people who have not done very well out of the system. I

:09:36.:09:40.

think, again, that is not a sneer, but it is a condescension

:09:41.:09:44.

nonetheless. It is a sense that the poor people, maybe we need to help

:09:45.:09:48.

them out economically. The reason I say that is because I think it was

:09:49.:09:52.

more political than that. I think what we are underestimating here be

:09:53.:09:55.

that the establishment parties on left and right have collapsed, we

:09:56.:10:05.

are in a new phase historical, we do not know where it is going to go, it

:10:06.:10:08.

is scary, and the only people who are saying we have had enough of

:10:09.:10:12.

that, we're asserting ourselves. The rise of these radical movements

:10:13.:10:16.

throughout the world, it is not a rejection of modernity by these

:10:17.:10:20.

people. It is an expression of modernity, they do not have to live

:10:21.:10:24.

their lives according to the ideas of remote incompetents, people who

:10:25.:10:29.

cannot control borders. Oliver, you wrote a piece in the Times today

:10:30.:10:34.

saying that trade, globalisation, the stuff that people complain

:10:35.:10:38.

about, a lot of them do complain about it, it has delivered more than

:10:39.:10:46.

perhaps people recognise. It is a tremendously productive system, the

:10:47.:10:50.

system of economic openness. It has losers, you cannot have the sort of

:10:51.:11:00.

economic creativity, this productivity, without endangering

:11:01.:11:04.

national sovereignty, it rode in national sovereignty, and

:11:05.:11:07.

endangering some domestic industries and their workforces. The task of

:11:08.:11:11.

economic and social policy is to ensure that those who are left

:11:12.:11:14.

behind are compensated, even though the net benefit. He is very

:11:15.:11:24.

substantially positive. Folk are not angry because they have cheaper

:11:25.:11:27.

mobile phones, but because monetary policy means that houses are no

:11:28.:11:31.

longer affordable for young people. It is a lack of the free market that

:11:32.:11:36.

has caused this extraordinarily unfair monetary policy that has

:11:37.:11:38.

enriched a small queue and left the rest are unable to afford it. It is

:11:39.:11:44.

impossible to imagine that people could be excited about the

:11:45.:11:47.

possibility of creating an economic policy... Well, tell us what it is,

:11:48.:11:52.

because where is the beacon country that you would look to? By the

:11:53.:11:59.

populist have taken over and delivered nirvana? This is what is

:12:00.:12:03.

ironic, people will say to me, you know, all of our people in policy,

:12:04.:12:08.

we have been working with the EU, coming up with policies, anyone

:12:09.:12:11.

would think that the British economy had not been sluggish for some time.

:12:12.:12:15.

It is not as though it has been thriving. I am suggesting that

:12:16.:12:19.

delivering a modern, dynamic economy is not beyond... We can do it as a

:12:20.:12:25.

society, and possibly to save this is it, there is no alternative, we

:12:26.:12:29.

get what we are given, which is what we have been told, this is the end

:12:30.:12:38.

of it. We can be more creative and exciting. We are told we live in a

:12:39.:12:43.

free market capitalist system, but we have a system where capital is

:12:44.:12:47.

allocated not on the basis of a pricing mechanism but on the fiat of

:12:48.:12:55.

central bankers, it cannot hold. Do any of you think that Trump and

:12:56.:13:00.

Farage, between them, have, if you like, ideas... You have mentioned

:13:01.:13:04.

infrastructure spending, everyone is in favour of that now! But do they

:13:05.:13:09.

have specific things? No, they have not, it is a nonsense. Their

:13:10.:13:14.

political campaign, which is supposedly for the expropriated and

:13:15.:13:20.

those left behind is more an intellectual obscurity, it is

:13:21.:13:23.

anti-democratic, anti-science, and it is nativist and basically

:13:24.:13:28.

xenophobic. Which are under estimate what is going on with things like

:13:29.:13:37.

Podemos and ... Playing anger back people does not help, you have to

:13:38.:13:40.

look at what the great reformers did, Thatcher and Reagan, they

:13:41.:13:44.

offered a better way. If we caricature this movement, it will

:13:45.:13:50.

become worse, it we will be even more metropolitan elite. I'm going

:13:51.:13:53.

to thank both of you, we will be back with you in a moment.

:13:54.:13:55.

Well, Nigel Farage continues to be a talking point here,

:13:56.:13:57.

but a test of the long-term impact of his politics is

:13:58.:14:00.

The party has to carry the torch he has lit

:14:01.:14:04.

The leadership election is well under way, but I guess most people

:14:05.:14:08.

would struggle to pick any of the candidates

:14:09.:14:10.

The better known ones, Susanne Evans, Paul Nuttall,

:14:11.:14:13.

Steven Woolfe, are not on the ballot paper.

:14:14.:14:15.

We'll come back and talk to Douglas about the future

:14:16.:14:18.

of his party in a few minutes, but first the film-maker

:14:19.:14:20.

Nick Blakemore has gone behind the scenes,

:14:21.:14:22.

trying to get to know the candidates who are in the running

:14:23.:14:25.

It is a bit like a wedding, isn't it? Yeah, it is.

:14:26.:14:42.

Some of these events have been very, very well attended,

:14:43.:14:44.

Nice to see you, Bill, how are you doing, all right?

:14:45.:14:53.

Better journey today, beautiful location as well.

:14:54.:14:54.

It is a really nice location, really nice.

:14:55.:14:57.

And like I say, the lectern looks fantastic,

:14:58.:14:59.

As I understand it, Diane's campaign team have decided that she's better

:15:00.:15:22.

distancing herself from us and doing her own thing.

:15:23.:15:24.

I think it's quite an insult to the membership and totally

:15:25.:15:27.

I think Diane is disrespecting the members by not coming

:15:28.:15:30.

to these events, you know, I like Diane, I get on very

:15:31.:15:33.

well with Diane, I think she's a great person.

:15:34.:15:35.

But I think it would be better if she was here.

:15:36.:15:38.

The message tonight is that I am there with Westminster behind me,

:15:39.:15:41.

which is obviously a massive part of Ukip.

:15:42.:15:45.

First of all, you shouldn't be ashamed to say you love your

:15:46.:15:52.

country, and one of the reasons why I love our country is because

:15:53.:15:55.

it's the home of democracy and freedom of the people

:15:56.:15:58.

means no more of the establishment telling us what to do,

:15:59.:16:00.

no big state control, allowing people the freedom

:16:01.:16:02.

What I'm hoping to get out of it is just meeting the members,

:16:03.:16:06.

for those who haven't met me in the first 14 or 15 months.

:16:07.:16:10.

So just getting to know them again, getting them to understand

:16:11.:16:12.

that I really am grassroots, but, equally, I'm very much

:16:13.:16:16.

a leader with management and team-building experience.

:16:17.:16:18.

So I've got a lot to offer, but it's not going to be

:16:19.:16:21.

about the Lisa show, it will be about the team involved.

:16:22.:16:24.

Core message is leadership, management, team building,

:16:25.:16:25.

and the future of Ukip is grassroots and councillors.

:16:26.:16:28.

You don't answer the phone when you've got a boy!

:16:29.:16:42.

Ten seconds left, I shall start ringing my glass furiously

:16:43.:16:48.

so that they know they are close to being out of time.

:16:49.:16:51.

I shall just take my seat, and then we'll call

:16:52.:16:53.

The current Labour scheme seems to be internationalist,

:16:54.:16:56.

anti-monarchy, anti-armed forces, and anti-Judaeo-Christian.

:16:57.:17:04.

We offer the absolute opposite to that, and I think

:17:05.:17:06.

and could be a complete shoo-in for the old Labour areas,

:17:07.:17:11.

but we need to get out there and say hello!

:17:12.:17:14.

We've got to go and say hello so they're not frightened of us.

:17:15.:17:17.

They've heard through the Labour machine that we are the big

:17:18.:17:20.

bogeymen who hate them and hate everything...

:17:21.:17:22.

I think the big thing we need to do in this party that needs to be

:17:23.:17:26.

communication, communication, communication.

:17:27.:17:32.

I think I'm someone who's got real-life experience,

:17:33.:17:34.

I'm a working-class lad, you know, who works in a supermarket,

:17:35.:17:39.

But also I've got other experiences in my life,

:17:40.:17:42.

you know, I ran a small wrestling promotion business.

:17:43.:17:44.

There's a video in the public domain where you are quoted as saying,

:17:45.:17:56.

I think, "I'm better than you, cleverer than you,

:17:57.:17:58.

and more importantly I've got more money than you."

:17:59.:18:00.

Yes, that's wrestling character interviews.

:18:01.:18:04.

understand anything about that at all.

:18:05.:18:13.

What I would say is wrestling characters are actors, you know,

:18:14.:18:15.

You know, we wouldn't get Leonardo DiCaprio and hauled over

:18:16.:18:22.

the coals about character comments that the Wolf Of Wall Street

:18:23.:18:24.

I don't want to tell people what they should or shouldn't wear,

:18:25.:18:28.

but if somebody wearing a crash helmet, a hoodie or a balaclava

:18:29.:18:31.

is asked to show their face, then the same should apply

:18:32.:18:34.

I do worry sometimes about the way this comes across,

:18:35.:18:39.

and I think when we get into these issues, I think a lot of the time

:18:40.:18:43.

Where we must never go is singling out one part of the community,

:18:44.:18:49.

one faith, and singling them out for special attention.

:18:50.:18:51.

You talked in the speech about demonising people,

:18:52.:19:01.

was it wise to pose for photographs with two knitted golliwogs?

:19:02.:19:06.

That was way back when, and actually the whole reason

:19:07.:19:09.

for that was part of a campaign against political correctness.

:19:10.:19:12.

Every time now I try and talk policy, I end up talking

:19:13.:19:15.

People find those images grossly offensive.

:19:16.:19:19.

and frankly if anyone is offended by an image of a doll,

:19:20.:19:27.

I'd suggest to them they need to get out a bit more.

:19:28.:19:40.

The hustings are a complete waste of time.

:19:41.:19:49.

they've descended into what I call a bun fight, and it's just not...

:19:50.:19:55.

But anyway, look, you must let me move on.

:19:56.:19:58.

Can I just ask you a few questions?

:19:59.:20:01.

Can you just tell me very quickly what you are not

:20:02.:20:07.

I've developed my own strategy, and in fact that gentleman

:20:08.:20:10.

I was just speaking to a few minutes ago was congratulating

:20:11.:20:13.

Your leadership colleagues said to me last night that, "Diane,

:20:14.:20:17.

I think what your actually voicing is more just

:20:18.:20:24.

what I've got used to now, which is the sort of insult

:20:25.:20:27.

and really quite unpleasant behaviour that is coming back

:20:28.:20:29.

I haven't adopted that tactic, I'm trying to rise above it,

:20:30.:20:36.

I'm appealing to my members and activists to come

:20:37.:20:38.

and hear what I've got to say, put me on the spot with questions,

:20:39.:20:41.

and if that is not actually being a team player

:20:42.:20:43.

and showing leadership, I really don't know what is.

:20:44.:20:52.

In case you were wondering why we didn't hear more from Diane James

:20:53.:20:55.

about the substance of her campaign there,

:20:56.:20:56.

Newsnight wasn't allowed to film her event once it started.

:20:57.:20:59.

Let's talk about your party, we have done the big picture. Are you happy

:21:00.:21:13.

with the range of candidates? I think it would have been better if

:21:14.:21:18.

we had some slightly taller poppies but not all of the taller ones made

:21:19.:21:25.

it onto the ballot paper for various reasons, some self-inflicted and

:21:26.:21:29.

some inflicted by others but this is a huge opportunity, this is the

:21:30.:21:33.

possibility of running the third largest party in the country and it

:21:34.:21:38.

is potentially a massive opportunity, look at the state of

:21:39.:21:41.

the Labour Party in meltdown, the lib -- Liberal Democrats are on a

:21:42.:21:45.

holiday from history and they may never come back and if we need to

:21:46.:21:49.

seize this opportunity we need a leader or changes the tone quite

:21:50.:21:54.

dramatically. And also has a much bigger policy repertoire. Who is

:21:55.:22:01.

that? You have not endorsed anyone. I did not always get on particularly

:22:02.:22:05.

well with the last leader and I will make a special effort to get on with

:22:06.:22:09.

the new one! I owe it to support whoever the members vote for. You

:22:10.:22:14.

owe it to the members to tell them who you think should not have the

:22:15.:22:18.

job, you have outlined a job description for who should fit the

:22:19.:22:22.

bill and let us be honest, Bill Etheridge, that chap once a

:22:23.:22:28.

referendum on the death penalty, he described Hitler as a magnetic,

:22:29.:22:33.

forceful leader. There is no way that you could say he is your... The

:22:34.:22:42.

way I would put this is, I think Bill demonstrated this, if you talk

:22:43.:22:45.

about things that he has talked about, it does not really matter

:22:46.:22:49.

what you say, it is not what you say, it is what people here and that

:22:50.:22:54.

needs to change. One of the reasons we only managed to win one single

:22:55.:22:58.

seat at the General Election and why we haemorrhaged one third of

:22:59.:23:03.

supporters is because we used shock and offal tactics and they put up a

:23:04.:23:07.

lot of swing voters. In one of your blogs you said one of the questions

:23:08.:23:10.

are leaders need to answer is what is Ukip for? Good question, you will

:23:11.:23:16.

offer Brexit? What are you for? We have the EU cartel, that group at

:23:17.:23:23.

the top of the upper echelons of Whitehall but there are cartels in

:23:24.:23:26.

the nooks and crannies of the lives of people, look at the family court

:23:27.:23:31.

system, Monetary Policy Committee the banking system, these are

:23:32.:23:35.

cartels that need to be broken and politics itself in this country, one

:23:36.:23:39.

of the reasons there is this mood of anti-politics anger is politics is

:23:40.:23:44.

basically a rigged system. We think of it as competitive, in most seats

:23:45.:23:47.

in this country there is no real contest as to who will be the next

:23:48.:23:53.

Member of Parliament, people are parachuted in, people like George

:23:54.:23:56.

Osborne or Ed Miliband, when he ran, people want different politics when

:23:57.:24:02.

those they sent to parliament actually answer to the voters. Open

:24:03.:24:07.

primary candidate selection. You want political reform. I was on

:24:08.:24:13.

fire, Bill described Hitler as a magnetic, forceful leader, not

:24:14.:24:19.

speaker. The truth is, the party you describe, the reformist agenda, is

:24:20.:24:23.

not actually the same as the Ukip one. Is it important for British

:24:24.:24:29.

politics to have Ukip party rather like the Nigel Farage Ukip party and

:24:30.:24:34.

which represents a strand of UK opinion and has given voice to a lot

:24:35.:24:38.

of people. You are in a different place. The results of the last

:24:39.:24:43.

election spoke for themselves. I did not bang on about Europe and

:24:44.:24:47.

immigration, I made a point of saying that first and second

:24:48.:24:51.

generation Britons were as much a part of this country as anyone else.

:24:52.:24:56.

If you play the anger of people back at them, you don't aggregate votes

:24:57.:25:02.

and win seats. We desperately need a party that can break this cosy

:25:03.:25:06.

cartel. Are you just getting in the way of Ukip? As Ukip members want

:25:07.:25:12.

the party to be? By banging on about the things you are banging on about

:25:13.:25:19.

rather than what they want? I think the reason things have gone wrong in

:25:20.:25:26.

politics is and is not enough radical liberalism and Ukip could be

:25:27.:25:29.

the vehicle to break these vested interest and cartels that

:25:30.:25:33.

non-politics for their convenience. It could certainly sees that. If

:25:34.:25:37.

Ukip tries to become a British version of some of those angry

:25:38.:25:40.

nativist parties in continental Europe, it will rightly fail and it

:25:41.:25:46.

would deserve to. And you would have to leave? If the leader to get in

:25:47.:25:50.

that direction? The Parliamentary party would take a vote on that.

:25:51.:25:53.

Douglas Carswell, thank you very much indeed.

:25:54.:25:57.

In the earthquake struck region of Italy, there were the all too

:25:58.:26:00.

And, I'm afraid, also there was the predicted rise

:26:01.:26:03.

Victims have been identified from numerous countries -

:26:04.:26:06.

we know from local officials that at least three British

:26:07.:26:08.

Five Romanians and at least one Spanish person are also known

:26:09.:26:12.

One Polish woman who was in Amatrice and survived described

:26:13.:26:16.

"I will remember till the end of my life this noise,

:26:17.:26:22.

the evil murmur of moving walls", she said.

:26:23.:26:25.

Well, our reporter John Sweeney was in nearby Perugia

:26:26.:26:27.

when the quake struck, you might have heard him

:26:28.:26:29.

He's been looking at the aftermath today.

:26:30.:26:37.

After the quake come the after-shocks.

:26:38.:26:40.

Tremors of the earth and of the heart.

:26:41.:26:44.

This woman's family home is in Pescara, a little town on a

:26:45.:26:47.

Her whole family was in the house when the quake struck.

:26:48.:27:09.

Her aunt and uncle are still missing.

:27:10.:27:12.

This entire hillside, all these people's homes,

:27:13.:27:22.

crashing down, masonry, bricks, rocks, concrete, boulders.

:27:23.:27:27.

Imagine how much noise that must have made while the whole

:27:28.:27:30.

In Pescara, 17 dead is the official count.

:27:31.:27:42.

Locals fear many more may have perished.

:27:43.:27:47.

The first people to turn up at many sites like best are are not police

:27:48.:27:53.

or firemen but volunteer rescue workers. How many people died? We

:27:54.:28:06.

don't know. Because the city had many inhabitants for the summer

:28:07.:28:14.

holiday. People coming back. I talked to a person who lived here

:28:15.:28:18.

and is said to me that there was about half of the city full of

:28:19.:28:27.

people inside. On the other side of the river, rescue work continues

:28:28.:28:32.

while hopes of finding survivors face. One person told the BBC that

:28:33.:28:36.

at least three British citizens were amongst those killed.

:28:37.:28:38.

Geologically, it is tearing itself apart.

:28:39.:28:40.

The tectonic plates underneath the central mountain chain,

:28:41.:28:42.

Earthquakes that kill people in their hundreds

:28:43.:28:47.

But will the quake that did for Pescara cause

:28:48.:28:52.

Some may use the quake as ammunition against

:28:53.:29:02.

Prime Minister Renzi, who faces a tricky referendum

:29:03.:29:04.

later this year and may go the way of our own David Cameron.

:29:05.:29:09.

But in 12 months which has seen a chain of terror attacks,

:29:10.:29:13.

the earthquake in Italy is a reminder that nature, too,

:29:14.:29:18.

can be a mass killer of the utmost cruelty.

:29:19.:29:25.

The Labour Party has a small problem - you knew that.

:29:26.:29:30.

This, though, is about their conference next month.

:29:31.:29:32.

They don't have anyone to do the security.

:29:33.:29:34.

Our policy editor, Chris Cook, is with me.

:29:35.:29:36.

Chris, this all started with Labour saying we don't want to use G4S, we

:29:37.:29:43.

are boycotting them, and they have done it in the past. That is right,

:29:44.:29:49.

so this was a slightly unusual beating last year of the NEC, where

:29:50.:29:55.

they decided they wouldn't use G4S, their long-standing security

:29:56.:29:57.

partner, for security at the conference, which is quite a big

:29:58.:30:01.

operation. There are lots of scanners. This was unusual for a few

:30:02.:30:07.

reasons. First, it was because, as you say, G4S invested in Israel.

:30:08.:30:12.

Labour does not have a position of being against companies who do that,

:30:13.:30:19.

it is not boycotting, but the NEC in this case decided that it would. G4S

:30:20.:30:23.

had already announced they were going to pull out of Israel, so

:30:24.:30:26.

having used them for many years when they were investing in Israel,

:30:27.:30:31.

slightly peculiar timing. But it has left them without a partner to do

:30:32.:30:35.

the security. So they went to another company, which were

:30:36.:30:42.

involved, but unfortunately, in an industrial dispute with the GMB, a

:30:43.:30:48.

major union affiliated to Labour, and that meant they had the prospect

:30:49.:30:54.

of their own security officers being picketed by their union. That is not

:30:55.:31:01.

going to work! So that would not have worked. So where does that

:31:02.:31:10.

leave them? Plan C is they go back to G4S, and they have said no, we do

:31:11.:31:15.

not have time to do it. So they have to come up with something else, plan

:31:16.:31:21.

D, we will call it. It is likely, given the enormous political

:31:22.:31:24.

embarrassment of a party that cannot put on its own conference, given

:31:25.:31:27.

they have got lots of money, not least from the leadership contest,

:31:28.:31:31.

it is likely they will come up with a solution, it would be unimaginable

:31:32.:31:41.

for them not to be able to hold the conference. But it is the latest

:31:42.:31:44.

example of things not going right for the Labour Party, when it rains,

:31:45.:31:45.

it pours in politics. Tomorrow at a court in Ipswich,

:31:46.:31:47.

a judge will hand down a sentence on an optometrist

:31:48.:31:50.

who has been found guilty The conviction is one

:31:51.:31:52.

of manslaughter by gross negligence. a dangerous condition

:31:53.:31:56.

in the boy's eyes, and because it went unnoticed,

:31:57.:31:59.

the boy went untreated, although rarely with such

:32:00.:32:01.

a ghastly consequence, but some professionals worry

:32:02.:32:06.

that there is no clear line between an understandable mistake

:32:07.:32:08.

and an appalling act of negligence. Secunder Kermani reports

:32:09.:32:13.

on the debate over how far professionals

:32:14.:32:15.

should be held responsible In court, prosecutors said

:32:16.:32:17.

there were obvious abnormalities in both of eight-year-old

:32:18.:32:25.

Vinnie Barker's eyes. That should have led

:32:26.:32:27.

to an urgent referral to treat The jury found that his optometrist,

:32:28.:32:32.

Honey Rose's conduct Each is based on unique

:32:33.:32:38.

circumstances and each one But they do raise questions

:32:39.:32:45.

about how we deal with fatal In one of the most high profile

:32:46.:32:50.

cases, surgeon David Sellu was found Following that conviction,

:32:51.:32:57.

a group of 300 doctors wrote a letter raising concerns

:32:58.:33:04.

about what they claim are increasing incidents of doctors

:33:05.:33:06.

being investigated That increase is disputed and

:33:07.:33:08.

we are talking about low numbers. Since December 2014 there have been

:33:09.:33:17.

13 prosecutions that we know of relating to the deaths

:33:18.:33:20.

of seven patients. A number had been dismissed by

:33:21.:33:33.

judges before even reaching a jury. There has been a big push that

:33:34.:33:39.

all health workers should declare and be open and honest

:33:40.:33:41.

about mistakes and that when something goes wrong,

:33:42.:33:43.

as it does in healthcare, they should talk openly

:33:44.:33:46.

with relatives and patients Because what we know is,

:33:47.:33:48.

that is the thing that And it is this open and just culture

:33:49.:33:51.

of learning from mistakes which I think is under threat

:33:52.:33:56.

by rising criminal prosecution. Bethany Bowen was five years old

:33:57.:34:02.

when she died during an operation. Surgeons had decided to use

:34:03.:34:05.

a new piece of equipment that had never been used before

:34:06.:34:08.

on a child in the UK. Her mother says that criminal

:34:09.:34:13.

prosecutions should only ever be considered when it is clear

:34:14.:34:16.

the individual is at fault, It is the wider culture and that

:34:17.:34:20.

needs to be looked at more carefully But if the doctor turns up

:34:21.:34:25.

and blatantly disregards the rules and the culture and environment

:34:26.:34:30.

and doesn't listen to the people around him when they are telling

:34:31.:34:34.

him, maybe, actually stop, don't do this -

:34:35.:34:36.

then that is when the doctor needs The CPS defines gross

:34:37.:34:39.

negligence manslaughter as... It says the defendant

:34:40.:34:51.

must not have done what a reasonable person

:34:52.:34:53.

would do in their position. This is a law that applies

:34:54.:34:56.

to everyone, private individuals Construction industries or engineers

:34:57.:35:00.

or architects or even people Everyone has to be held to account

:35:01.:35:08.

if they are undertaking an activity where there is a risk to others,

:35:09.:35:15.

and so the question has to be asked as to whether healthcare

:35:16.:35:20.

professions should be treated during what was meant to be

:35:21.:35:22.

a routine operation. But he thinks the medical profession

:35:23.:35:31.

needs to learn lessons from how mistakes are looked at in other

:35:32.:35:34.

fields, like aviation and rail. Most safety-critical industries

:35:35.:35:41.

aspire one where you look at a situation

:35:42.:35:44.

and say, was this inadvertent human error where we can help to redesign

:35:45.:35:49.

a system to help make it better? Or was it some form of recklessness

:35:50.:35:52.

or gross negligence? And that doesn't matter, really,

:35:53.:35:55.

whether we're talking about a front-line individual

:35:56.:35:58.

or a senior executive. How do you draw that line between

:35:59.:36:01.

what is inadvertent human error So, the line, the idea of a hard

:36:02.:36:04.

line between inadvertent human error and gross negligence actually

:36:05.:36:12.

doesn't really exist. the jury took just two hours

:36:13.:36:14.

to convict his optometrist. For them, in this case

:36:15.:36:22.

the line was completely clear. In a statement,

:36:23.:36:26.

Vinnie's parents told us... The CPS say the threshold for

:36:27.:37:08.

prosecutions of gross negligence manslaughter is extremely high

:37:09.:37:11.

and most cases never reach court. For some, these cases

:37:12.:37:14.

are about accountability For others, they could risk

:37:15.:37:18.

leaving the workforce Secunder Kermani there. A little

:37:19.:37:40.

look at the newspapers before we go, the Times leading on an interesting

:37:41.:37:48.

story about changing Britain, Poles now Britain's biggest migrant group,

:37:49.:37:52.

overtaking Indians, who always arriving with the Irish. EU migrants

:37:53.:37:59.

have topped 3 million for the first time. The Guardian leads an NHS

:38:00.:38:06.

plans to fight the deficit with cuts, hospital bosses running up

:38:07.:38:09.

plans for closures. The Daily Telegraph takes the same story, NHS

:38:10.:38:16.

takes axe to hospital units and tells us that grammar schools have

:38:17.:38:21.

bucked the falling trend in GCSEs. The Daily Mirror leads and the

:38:22.:38:25.

Italian earthquake and news that a British boy is lost in what they

:38:26.:38:26.

call quake horror. Well, that's almost all

:38:27.:38:28.

we've got time for tonight, but all this week we've been treated

:38:29.:38:30.

to a piece of the Proms. The Multi Storey Orchestra

:38:31.:38:33.

will be playing, but, you've guessed it,

:38:34.:38:35.

in a municipal car park in Peckham. That's on Saturday 3rd September,

:38:36.:38:39.

and they'll be live on Radio 3 then. But tonight here for us

:38:40.:38:43.

from the orchestra a version of Fugue from Violin

:38:44.:38:46.

Sonata in G minor on the marimba. MUSIC: Fugue from Violin Sonata

:38:47.:38:53.

in G Minor by Bach Good evening. It has been a mixed

:38:54.:40:43.

sort of day, Thursday, some sunshine, overnight heavy downpours

:40:44.:40:48.

and thunderstorms. By the time we get to

:40:49.:40:49.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS