Browse content similar to 25/08/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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If the ordinary decent people are prepared to stand up and fight for | :00:08. | :00:13. | |
what they believe in, we can overcome the big banks! We can | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
overcome the multinationals! CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | :00:20. | :00:26. | |
And we did it, we made June 23 our Independence Day when we smashed the | :00:27. | :00:27. | |
establishment! You'll either find the scene | :00:28. | :00:29. | |
exhilarating or terrifying. with populists simply exploiting | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
public discontent? to talk about the people | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
versus the establishment. as it prepares | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
to select a new leader. I'm a working-class lad | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
who works in a supermarket But also I've got other | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
experiences in my life. I've ran a small wrestling | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
promotion business. Also tonight, John Sweeney | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
amid the aftershocks and distress When should a fatal mistake | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
mean a jail sentence? And it is this open and just culture | :01:05. | :01:15. | |
of learning from mistakes which I think is under threat | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
by rising criminal prosecution. Two politicians - neither has been | :01:20. | :01:32. | |
elected into government but both have had an electrifying effect | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
on their national politics. Maybe you can call the creed | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
"antiestablishmentarianism". Not the longest word | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
in the dictionary, Many on the side of Brexit | :01:45. | :01:45. | |
will want to distance themselves from Nigel Farage | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
linking their views But there is insurrection | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
in the air. There are millions | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
of ordinary Americans who've been let down, | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
who've had a bad time. Who feel the political | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
class in Washington Who feel so many | :02:08. | :02:08. | |
of their representatives are politically correct parts | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
of that liberal media elite. They feel people aren't standing up | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
for them and they've actually in many cases given up | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
on the whole electoral process. I think that you have | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
a fantastic opportunity here. There's no doubt the phenomenon | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
goes well beyond the UK and US, and politicians are struggling to | :02:30. | :02:44. | |
keep up, ride the wave or resist it. In numerous countries to the east, | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
populist leaders have won elections. In France right now, | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
we're seeing a former President, Nicolas Sarkozy, run for office, | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
picking up some of the nationalist message of the anti-establishment | :02:59. | :03:00. | |
National Front. The great divide seems | :03:01. | :03:09. | |
less about left or right, more about two cultures, | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
a socially liberal, urban one who think the system has been | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
rigged against the ordinary. Should we welcome the scene | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
we saw last night? In a moment, | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
we will explore in detail where Ukip is headed | :03:28. | :03:29. | |
in this country. Joining me now are Douglas Carswell, | :03:30. | :03:31. | |
the Ukip MP, and Claire Fox of the think-tank | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
the Institute of Ideas. This is the difficulty, I think they | :03:36. | :04:00. | |
are right that something is going on, and seeing them together, people | :04:01. | :04:08. | |
are rising up, there is an antiestablishment mood, and when | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
Brexit happened, it was against all the odds, it was having had all the | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
big guns, the whole of the establishment threaten, bully and | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
say, if you do this, and it was assumed, of course, that people | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
would do what they were told. And they didn't, and so on AdSense Nigel | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
Farage has got a point, and Trump does something similar. You could | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
see how they are bedfellows. Putting them together as bedfellows, | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
immediately everyone thinks she is to the right of Genghis Khan, on the | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
side of Trump. What did you think, Donald? I am a bit puzzle and | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
bemused that the party of Abraham Lincoln has managed to select as its | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
candidate a thin-skinned narcissist who launched his bid for the White | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
House by implying most Mexicans were murderers. I think it is | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
extraordinary. The fact that someone like that can get so far tells me | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
there is something seriously wrong with politics in the Beltway, in | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
Washington, DC. How is it that a man like that can get so far? Clearly, | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
people are voting for legitimate reasons, they feel a legitimate | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
sense of anger against the political cartel, but I am not certain that | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
Donald Trump is the answer! Nigel Farage and him linking the cause | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
which you have been a champ in for many years, Brexit, Saint Brexit, | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
Trump, this is all the same thing. -- saying. It is not the same thing. | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
If the vote leave campaign, of which Nigel was no part, had put forward | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
what you might call shock and awe tactics, I think we would have lost | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
70-30 in Plaxton. Is there something a bit funny about Nigel Farage | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
standing talking about the little people, standing next to a | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
billionaire property developer buying his way into the election? It | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
seems so... All these contradictions. Something that | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
people have to understand is that there has been a sneer by the | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
establishment for some time, a sneer about people's lives, about their | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
capacities, about their abilities, and so we can say we do not | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
understand this, he is defending the billionaires. But actually it was | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
the billionaires who lined up against the people, and the people | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
said, we have thought about this, we want some control. Just a final | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
word, because Douglas made the point, why have they got Trump in | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
the first place? It doesn't matter what is politics, they have lost | :06:43. | :06:54. | |
control of their party because they have got no ideology, and he | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
represents that. One of the reasons that Trump has proved so popular is, | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
being independently wealthy, he is not in the pocket of vested | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
interests. Apps we should look at the lobbyist who have not only | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
stitched up democracy in America but have done the same through the EU. | :07:07. | :07:13. | |
Oliver, these two have found reasons to be exhilarated, did you? I would | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
not have interpreted Douglas's comments as exhilaration so much as | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
sensitivity. He's found his former party leader extolling the benefits | :07:23. | :07:30. | |
of someone who Douglas quite rightly describes as a thin-skinned | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
narcissists. That is a meeting of minds, and I used the term mind in | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
the most generic, rather than descriptive sense. This is a | :07:38. | :07:46. | |
populist stand for, purportedly, people who have lost out through the | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
forces of globalisation, but as you rightly implied, but they are, | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
respectively, a billionaire and a public schoolboy. Claire is going to | :07:56. | :08:03. | |
use the word sneering, I will use it on her behalf. Do ride may be the | :08:04. | :08:12. | |
operative word. Should we not take take exception to the idea that this | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
is the rednecks against the elite, on the contrary, the elite have | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
rigged the monetary policy to make sure that people with assets become | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
richer, they have rigged the banking system, the political system. It is | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
not free trade globalist against protectionist rednecks, it is | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
ordinary people rising up against people who have rigged the economic | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
system in the interest of a small cartel. Not rigged at all. The | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
single market is a rigged the system. Wedged within that obloquy | :08:43. | :08:50. | |
is one single, reputable point, which is that monetary policy, the | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
conduct of monetary policy since the financial crash has benefited those | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
who own assets, rather than those who are dependent on incomes. That | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
widening of inequality is extremely dangerous. Bad point is a point on | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
which you will all agree, something has gone wrong and something needs | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
to be done about it. Things and would have been worse without it. It | :09:15. | :09:22. | |
also misses the point that this is not only about economics. There is | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
this notion that everybody voted for Brexit, this idea, it is like, they | :09:28. | :09:35. | |
are poor people who have not done very well out of the system. I | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
think, again, that is not a sneer, but it is a condescension | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
nonetheless. It is a sense that the poor people, maybe we need to help | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
them out economically. The reason I say that is because I think it was | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
more political than that. I think what we are underestimating here be | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
that the establishment parties on left and right have collapsed, we | :09:56. | :10:05. | |
are in a new phase historical, we do not know where it is going to go, it | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
is scary, and the only people who are saying we have had enough of | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
that, we're asserting ourselves. The rise of these radical movements | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
throughout the world, it is not a rejection of modernity by these | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
people. It is an expression of modernity, they do not have to live | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
their lives according to the ideas of remote incompetents, people who | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
cannot control borders. Oliver, you wrote a piece in the Times today | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
saying that trade, globalisation, the stuff that people complain | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
about, a lot of them do complain about it, it has delivered more than | :10:39. | :10:46. | |
perhaps people recognise. It is a tremendously productive system, the | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
system of economic openness. It has losers, you cannot have the sort of | :10:51. | :11:00. | |
economic creativity, this productivity, without endangering | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
national sovereignty, it rode in national sovereignty, and | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
endangering some domestic industries and their workforces. The task of | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
economic and social policy is to ensure that those who are left | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
behind are compensated, even though the net benefit. He is very | :11:15. | :11:24. | |
substantially positive. Folk are not angry because they have cheaper | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
mobile phones, but because monetary policy means that houses are no | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
longer affordable for young people. It is a lack of the free market that | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
has caused this extraordinarily unfair monetary policy that has | :11:37. | :11:38. | |
enriched a small queue and left the rest are unable to afford it. It is | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
impossible to imagine that people could be excited about the | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
possibility of creating an economic policy... Well, tell us what it is, | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
because where is the beacon country that you would look to? By the | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
populist have taken over and delivered nirvana? This is what is | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
ironic, people will say to me, you know, all of our people in policy, | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
we have been working with the EU, coming up with policies, anyone | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
would think that the British economy had not been sluggish for some time. | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
It is not as though it has been thriving. I am suggesting that | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
delivering a modern, dynamic economy is not beyond... We can do it as a | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
society, and possibly to save this is it, there is no alternative, we | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
get what we are given, which is what we have been told, this is the end | :12:30. | :12:38. | |
of it. We can be more creative and exciting. We are told we live in a | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
free market capitalist system, but we have a system where capital is | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
allocated not on the basis of a pricing mechanism but on the fiat of | :12:48. | :12:55. | |
central bankers, it cannot hold. Do any of you think that Trump and | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
Farage, between them, have, if you like, ideas... You have mentioned | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
infrastructure spending, everyone is in favour of that now! But do they | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
have specific things? No, they have not, it is a nonsense. Their | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
political campaign, which is supposedly for the expropriated and | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
those left behind is more an intellectual obscurity, it is | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
anti-democratic, anti-science, and it is nativist and basically | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
xenophobic. Which are under estimate what is going on with things like | :13:29. | :13:37. | |
Podemos and ... Playing anger back people does not help, you have to | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
look at what the great reformers did, Thatcher and Reagan, they | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
offered a better way. If we caricature this movement, it will | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
become worse, it we will be even more metropolitan elite. I'm going | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
to thank both of you, we will be back with you in a moment. | :13:54. | :13:55. | |
Well, Nigel Farage continues to be a talking point here, | :13:56. | :13:57. | |
but a test of the long-term impact of his politics is | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
The party has to carry the torch he has lit | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
The leadership election is well under way, but I guess most people | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
would struggle to pick any of the candidates | :14:09. | :14:10. | |
The better known ones, Susanne Evans, Paul Nuttall, | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
Steven Woolfe, are not on the ballot paper. | :14:14. | :14:15. | |
We'll come back and talk to Douglas about the future | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
of his party in a few minutes, but first the film-maker | :14:19. | :14:20. | |
Nick Blakemore has gone behind the scenes, | :14:21. | :14:22. | |
trying to get to know the candidates who are in the running | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
It is a bit like a wedding, isn't it? Yeah, it is. | :14:26. | :14:42. | |
Some of these events have been very, very well attended, | :14:43. | :14:44. | |
Nice to see you, Bill, how are you doing, all right? | :14:45. | :14:53. | |
Better journey today, beautiful location as well. | :14:54. | :14:54. | |
It is a really nice location, really nice. | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
And like I say, the lectern looks fantastic, | :14:58. | :14:59. | |
As I understand it, Diane's campaign team have decided that she's better | :15:00. | :15:22. | |
distancing herself from us and doing her own thing. | :15:23. | :15:24. | |
I think it's quite an insult to the membership and totally | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
I think Diane is disrespecting the members by not coming | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
to these events, you know, I like Diane, I get on very | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
well with Diane, I think she's a great person. | :15:34. | :15:35. | |
But I think it would be better if she was here. | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
The message tonight is that I am there with Westminster behind me, | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
which is obviously a massive part of Ukip. | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
First of all, you shouldn't be ashamed to say you love your | :15:46. | :15:52. | |
country, and one of the reasons why I love our country is because | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
it's the home of democracy and freedom of the people | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
means no more of the establishment telling us what to do, | :15:59. | :16:00. | |
no big state control, allowing people the freedom | :16:01. | :16:02. | |
What I'm hoping to get out of it is just meeting the members, | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
for those who haven't met me in the first 14 or 15 months. | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
So just getting to know them again, getting them to understand | :16:11. | :16:12. | |
that I really am grassroots, but, equally, I'm very much | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
a leader with management and team-building experience. | :16:17. | :16:18. | |
So I've got a lot to offer, but it's not going to be | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
about the Lisa show, it will be about the team involved. | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
Core message is leadership, management, team building, | :16:25. | :16:25. | |
and the future of Ukip is grassroots and councillors. | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
You don't answer the phone when you've got a boy! | :16:29. | :16:42. | |
Ten seconds left, I shall start ringing my glass furiously | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
so that they know they are close to being out of time. | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
I shall just take my seat, and then we'll call | :16:52. | :16:53. | |
The current Labour scheme seems to be internationalist, | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
anti-monarchy, anti-armed forces, and anti-Judaeo-Christian. | :16:57. | :17:04. | |
We offer the absolute opposite to that, and I think | :17:05. | :17:06. | |
and could be a complete shoo-in for the old Labour areas, | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
but we need to get out there and say hello! | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
We've got to go and say hello so they're not frightened of us. | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
They've heard through the Labour machine that we are the big | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
bogeymen who hate them and hate everything... | :17:21. | :17:22. | |
I think the big thing we need to do in this party that needs to be | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
communication, communication, communication. | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
I think I'm someone who's got real-life experience, | :17:33. | :17:34. | |
I'm a working-class lad, you know, who works in a supermarket, | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
But also I've got other experiences in my life, | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
you know, I ran a small wrestling promotion business. | :17:43. | :17:44. | |
There's a video in the public domain where you are quoted as saying, | :17:45. | :17:56. | |
I think, "I'm better than you, cleverer than you, | :17:57. | :17:58. | |
and more importantly I've got more money than you." | :17:59. | :18:00. | |
Yes, that's wrestling character interviews. | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
understand anything about that at all. | :18:05. | :18:13. | |
What I would say is wrestling characters are actors, you know, | :18:14. | :18:15. | |
You know, we wouldn't get Leonardo DiCaprio and hauled over | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
the coals about character comments that the Wolf Of Wall Street | :18:23. | :18:24. | |
I don't want to tell people what they should or shouldn't wear, | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
but if somebody wearing a crash helmet, a hoodie or a balaclava | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
is asked to show their face, then the same should apply | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
I do worry sometimes about the way this comes across, | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
and I think when we get into these issues, I think a lot of the time | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
Where we must never go is singling out one part of the community, | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
one faith, and singling them out for special attention. | :18:50. | :18:51. | |
You talked in the speech about demonising people, | :18:52. | :19:01. | |
was it wise to pose for photographs with two knitted golliwogs? | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
That was way back when, and actually the whole reason | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
for that was part of a campaign against political correctness. | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
Every time now I try and talk policy, I end up talking | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
People find those images grossly offensive. | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
and frankly if anyone is offended by an image of a doll, | :19:20. | :19:27. | |
I'd suggest to them they need to get out a bit more. | :19:28. | :19:40. | |
The hustings are a complete waste of time. | :19:41. | :19:49. | |
they've descended into what I call a bun fight, and it's just not... | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
But anyway, look, you must let me move on. | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
Can I just ask you a few questions? | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
Can you just tell me very quickly what you are not | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
I've developed my own strategy, and in fact that gentleman | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
I was just speaking to a few minutes ago was congratulating | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
Your leadership colleagues said to me last night that, "Diane, | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
I think what your actually voicing is more just | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
what I've got used to now, which is the sort of insult | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
and really quite unpleasant behaviour that is coming back | :20:28. | :20:29. | |
I haven't adopted that tactic, I'm trying to rise above it, | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
I'm appealing to my members and activists to come | :20:37. | :20:38. | |
and hear what I've got to say, put me on the spot with questions, | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
and if that is not actually being a team player | :20:42. | :20:43. | |
and showing leadership, I really don't know what is. | :20:44. | :20:52. | |
In case you were wondering why we didn't hear more from Diane James | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
about the substance of her campaign there, | :20:56. | :20:56. | |
Newsnight wasn't allowed to film her event once it started. | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
Let's talk about your party, we have done the big picture. Are you happy | :21:00. | :21:13. | |
with the range of candidates? I think it would have been better if | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
we had some slightly taller poppies but not all of the taller ones made | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
it onto the ballot paper for various reasons, some self-inflicted and | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
some inflicted by others but this is a huge opportunity, this is the | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
possibility of running the third largest party in the country and it | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
is potentially a massive opportunity, look at the state of | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
the Labour Party in meltdown, the lib -- Liberal Democrats are on a | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
holiday from history and they may never come back and if we need to | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
seize this opportunity we need a leader or changes the tone quite | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
dramatically. And also has a much bigger policy repertoire. Who is | :21:55. | :22:01. | |
that? You have not endorsed anyone. I did not always get on particularly | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
well with the last leader and I will make a special effort to get on with | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
the new one! I owe it to support whoever the members vote for. You | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
owe it to the members to tell them who you think should not have the | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
job, you have outlined a job description for who should fit the | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
bill and let us be honest, Bill Etheridge, that chap once a | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
referendum on the death penalty, he described Hitler as a magnetic, | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
forceful leader. There is no way that you could say he is your... The | :22:34. | :22:42. | |
way I would put this is, I think Bill demonstrated this, if you talk | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
about things that he has talked about, it does not really matter | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
what you say, it is not what you say, it is what people here and that | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
needs to change. One of the reasons we only managed to win one single | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
seat at the General Election and why we haemorrhaged one third of | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
supporters is because we used shock and offal tactics and they put up a | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
lot of swing voters. In one of your blogs you said one of the questions | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
are leaders need to answer is what is Ukip for? Good question, you will | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
offer Brexit? What are you for? We have the EU cartel, that group at | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
the top of the upper echelons of Whitehall but there are cartels in | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
the nooks and crannies of the lives of people, look at the family court | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
system, Monetary Policy Committee the banking system, these are | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
cartels that need to be broken and politics itself in this country, one | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
of the reasons there is this mood of anti-politics anger is politics is | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
basically a rigged system. We think of it as competitive, in most seats | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
in this country there is no real contest as to who will be the next | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
Member of Parliament, people are parachuted in, people like George | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
Osborne or Ed Miliband, when he ran, people want different politics when | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
those they sent to parliament actually answer to the voters. Open | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
primary candidate selection. You want political reform. I was on | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
fire, Bill described Hitler as a magnetic, forceful leader, not | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
speaker. The truth is, the party you describe, the reformist agenda, is | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
not actually the same as the Ukip one. Is it important for British | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
politics to have Ukip party rather like the Nigel Farage Ukip party and | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
which represents a strand of UK opinion and has given voice to a lot | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
of people. You are in a different place. The results of the last | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
election spoke for themselves. I did not bang on about Europe and | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
immigration, I made a point of saying that first and second | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
generation Britons were as much a part of this country as anyone else. | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
If you play the anger of people back at them, you don't aggregate votes | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
and win seats. We desperately need a party that can break this cosy | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
cartel. Are you just getting in the way of Ukip? As Ukip members want | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
the party to be? By banging on about the things you are banging on about | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
rather than what they want? I think the reason things have gone wrong in | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
politics is and is not enough radical liberalism and Ukip could be | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
the vehicle to break these vested interest and cartels that | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
non-politics for their convenience. It could certainly sees that. If | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
Ukip tries to become a British version of some of those angry | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
nativist parties in continental Europe, it will rightly fail and it | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
would deserve to. And you would have to leave? If the leader to get in | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
that direction? The Parliamentary party would take a vote on that. | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
Douglas Carswell, thank you very much indeed. | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
In the earthquake struck region of Italy, there were the all too | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
And, I'm afraid, also there was the predicted rise | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
Victims have been identified from numerous countries - | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
we know from local officials that at least three British | :26:07. | :26:08. | |
Five Romanians and at least one Spanish person are also known | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
One Polish woman who was in Amatrice and survived described | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
"I will remember till the end of my life this noise, | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
the evil murmur of moving walls", she said. | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
Well, our reporter John Sweeney was in nearby Perugia | :26:26. | :26:27. | |
when the quake struck, you might have heard him | :26:28. | :26:29. | |
He's been looking at the aftermath today. | :26:30. | :26:37. | |
After the quake come the after-shocks. | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
Tremors of the earth and of the heart. | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
This woman's family home is in Pescara, a little town on a | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
Her whole family was in the house when the quake struck. | :26:48. | :27:09. | |
Her aunt and uncle are still missing. | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
This entire hillside, all these people's homes, | :27:13. | :27:22. | |
crashing down, masonry, bricks, rocks, concrete, boulders. | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
Imagine how much noise that must have made while the whole | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
In Pescara, 17 dead is the official count. | :27:31. | :27:42. | |
Locals fear many more may have perished. | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
The first people to turn up at many sites like best are are not police | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
or firemen but volunteer rescue workers. How many people died? We | :27:54. | :28:06. | |
don't know. Because the city had many inhabitants for the summer | :28:07. | :28:14. | |
holiday. People coming back. I talked to a person who lived here | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
and is said to me that there was about half of the city full of | :28:19. | :28:27. | |
people inside. On the other side of the river, rescue work continues | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
while hopes of finding survivors face. One person told the BBC that | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
at least three British citizens were amongst those killed. | :28:37. | :28:38. | |
Geologically, it is tearing itself apart. | :28:39. | :28:40. | |
The tectonic plates underneath the central mountain chain, | :28:41. | :28:42. | |
Earthquakes that kill people in their hundreds | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
But will the quake that did for Pescara cause | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
Some may use the quake as ammunition against | :28:53. | :29:02. | |
Prime Minister Renzi, who faces a tricky referendum | :29:03. | :29:04. | |
later this year and may go the way of our own David Cameron. | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
But in 12 months which has seen a chain of terror attacks, | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
the earthquake in Italy is a reminder that nature, too, | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
can be a mass killer of the utmost cruelty. | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
The Labour Party has a small problem - you knew that. | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
This, though, is about their conference next month. | :29:31. | :29:32. | |
They don't have anyone to do the security. | :29:33. | :29:34. | |
Our policy editor, Chris Cook, is with me. | :29:35. | :29:36. | |
Chris, this all started with Labour saying we don't want to use G4S, we | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
are boycotting them, and they have done it in the past. That is right, | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
so this was a slightly unusual beating last year of the NEC, where | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
they decided they wouldn't use G4S, their long-standing security | :29:56. | :29:57. | |
partner, for security at the conference, which is quite a big | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
operation. There are lots of scanners. This was unusual for a few | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
reasons. First, it was because, as you say, G4S invested in Israel. | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
Labour does not have a position of being against companies who do that, | :30:13. | :30:19. | |
it is not boycotting, but the NEC in this case decided that it would. G4S | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
had already announced they were going to pull out of Israel, so | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
having used them for many years when they were investing in Israel, | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
slightly peculiar timing. But it has left them without a partner to do | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
the security. So they went to another company, which were | :30:36. | :30:42. | |
involved, but unfortunately, in an industrial dispute with the GMB, a | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
major union affiliated to Labour, and that meant they had the prospect | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
of their own security officers being picketed by their union. That is not | :30:55. | :31:01. | |
going to work! So that would not have worked. So where does that | :31:02. | :31:10. | |
leave them? Plan C is they go back to G4S, and they have said no, we do | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
not have time to do it. So they have to come up with something else, plan | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
D, we will call it. It is likely, given the enormous political | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
embarrassment of a party that cannot put on its own conference, given | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
they have got lots of money, not least from the leadership contest, | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
it is likely they will come up with a solution, it would be unimaginable | :31:32. | :31:41. | |
for them not to be able to hold the conference. But it is the latest | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
example of things not going right for the Labour Party, when it rains, | :31:45. | :31:45. | |
it pours in politics. Tomorrow at a court in Ipswich, | :31:46. | :31:47. | |
a judge will hand down a sentence on an optometrist | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
who has been found guilty The conviction is one | :31:51. | :31:52. | |
of manslaughter by gross negligence. a dangerous condition | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
in the boy's eyes, and because it went unnoticed, | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
the boy went untreated, although rarely with such | :32:00. | :32:01. | |
a ghastly consequence, but some professionals worry | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
that there is no clear line between an understandable mistake | :32:07. | :32:08. | |
and an appalling act of negligence. Secunder Kermani reports | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
on the debate over how far professionals | :32:14. | :32:15. | |
should be held responsible In court, prosecutors said | :32:16. | :32:17. | |
there were obvious abnormalities in both of eight-year-old | :32:18. | :32:25. | |
Vinnie Barker's eyes. That should have led | :32:26. | :32:27. | |
to an urgent referral to treat The jury found that his optometrist, | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
Honey Rose's conduct Each is based on unique | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
circumstances and each one But they do raise questions | :32:39. | :32:45. | |
about how we deal with fatal In one of the most high profile | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
cases, surgeon David Sellu was found Following that conviction, | :32:51. | :32:57. | |
a group of 300 doctors wrote a letter raising concerns | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
about what they claim are increasing incidents of doctors | :33:05. | :33:06. | |
being investigated That increase is disputed and | :33:07. | :33:08. | |
we are talking about low numbers. Since December 2014 there have been | :33:09. | :33:17. | |
13 prosecutions that we know of relating to the deaths | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
of seven patients. A number had been dismissed by | :33:21. | :33:33. | |
judges before even reaching a jury. There has been a big push that | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
all health workers should declare and be open and honest | :33:40. | :33:41. | |
about mistakes and that when something goes wrong, | :33:42. | :33:43. | |
as it does in healthcare, they should talk openly | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
with relatives and patients Because what we know is, | :33:47. | :33:48. | |
that is the thing that And it is this open and just culture | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
of learning from mistakes which I think is under threat | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
by rising criminal prosecution. Bethany Bowen was five years old | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
when she died during an operation. Surgeons had decided to use | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
a new piece of equipment that had never been used before | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
on a child in the UK. Her mother says that criminal | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
prosecutions should only ever be considered when it is clear | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
the individual is at fault, It is the wider culture and that | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
needs to be looked at more carefully But if the doctor turns up | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
and blatantly disregards the rules and the culture and environment | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
and doesn't listen to the people around him when they are telling | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
him, maybe, actually stop, don't do this - | :34:35. | :34:36. | |
then that is when the doctor needs The CPS defines gross | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
negligence manslaughter as... It says the defendant | :34:40. | :34:51. | |
must not have done what a reasonable person | :34:52. | :34:53. | |
would do in their position. This is a law that applies | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
to everyone, private individuals Construction industries or engineers | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
or architects or even people Everyone has to be held to account | :35:01. | :35:08. | |
if they are undertaking an activity where there is a risk to others, | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
and so the question has to be asked as to whether healthcare | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
professions should be treated during what was meant to be | :35:21. | :35:22. | |
a routine operation. But he thinks the medical profession | :35:23. | :35:31. | |
needs to learn lessons from how mistakes are looked at in other | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
fields, like aviation and rail. Most safety-critical industries | :35:35. | :35:41. | |
aspire one where you look at a situation | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
and say, was this inadvertent human error where we can help to redesign | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
a system to help make it better? Or was it some form of recklessness | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
or gross negligence? And that doesn't matter, really, | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
whether we're talking about a front-line individual | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
or a senior executive. How do you draw that line between | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
what is inadvertent human error So, the line, the idea of a hard | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
line between inadvertent human error and gross negligence actually | :36:05. | :36:12. | |
doesn't really exist. the jury took just two hours | :36:13. | :36:14. | |
to convict his optometrist. For them, in this case | :36:15. | :36:22. | |
the line was completely clear. In a statement, | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
Vinnie's parents told us... The CPS say the threshold for | :36:27. | :37:08. | |
prosecutions of gross negligence manslaughter is extremely high | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
and most cases never reach court. For some, these cases | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
are about accountability For others, they could risk | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
leaving the workforce Secunder Kermani there. A little | :37:19. | :37:40. | |
look at the newspapers before we go, the Times leading on an interesting | :37:41. | :37:48. | |
story about changing Britain, Poles now Britain's biggest migrant group, | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
overtaking Indians, who always arriving with the Irish. EU migrants | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
have topped 3 million for the first time. The Guardian leads an NHS | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
plans to fight the deficit with cuts, hospital bosses running up | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
plans for closures. The Daily Telegraph takes the same story, NHS | :38:10. | :38:16. | |
takes axe to hospital units and tells us that grammar schools have | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
bucked the falling trend in GCSEs. The Daily Mirror leads and the | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
Italian earthquake and news that a British boy is lost in what they | :38:26. | :38:26. | |
call quake horror. Well, that's almost all | :38:27. | :38:28. | |
we've got time for tonight, but all this week we've been treated | :38:29. | :38:30. | |
to a piece of the Proms. The Multi Storey Orchestra | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
will be playing, but, you've guessed it, | :38:34. | :38:35. | |
in a municipal car park in Peckham. That's on Saturday 3rd September, | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
and they'll be live on Radio 3 then. But tonight here for us | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
from the orchestra a version of Fugue from Violin | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
Sonata in G minor on the marimba. MUSIC: Fugue from Violin Sonata | :38:47. | :38:53. | |
in G Minor by Bach Good evening. It has been a mixed | :38:54. | :40:43. | |
sort of day, Thursday, some sunshine, overnight heavy downpours | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
and thunderstorms. By the time we get to | :40:49. | :40:49. |