24/08/2016 Newsnight


24/08/2016

John Sweeney reports from the Italian earthquake zone, the former secretary general of NATO on Jeremy Corbyn and what does the Burkini tell us about our democracy? With Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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At least 120 have been killed and many are missing

:00:08.:00:10.

after an earthquake in central Italy.

:00:11.:00:11.

Buildings have been reduced to rubble as the rescue

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TRANSLATION: I really don't know what to say.

:00:14.:00:16.

We are living through this tragedy and we're only hoping

:00:17.:00:18.

that there will be the fewest number of victims as possible

:00:19.:00:21.

and that we will have the courage to move on.

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Italy is all too familiar with the devastation that

:00:26.:00:27.

As well as hearing from the area that's been hit today,

:00:28.:00:31.

we'll look at why that region is so vulnerable.

:00:32.:00:37.

Also tonight, the ban on the burkini - is this the problem with it?

:00:38.:00:40.

A picture of armed police telling a woman on a beach she's

:00:41.:00:43.

We'll ask when it's right for a state to take such a hard line.

:00:44.:00:50.

From Stoke on Trent to Stoke Newington,

:00:51.:00:55.

Newsnight's effort to bring harmony where there is discord.

:00:56.:00:57.

We just happen to have contrary views.

:00:58.:01:01.

And those are as valid as each other's.

:01:02.:01:04.

Business leader Sir Martin Sorrell is with us to tell us how Brexit

:01:05.:01:07.

A magnitude 6.2 earthquake does not sound that large -

:01:08.:01:26.

in fact at that size, they occur every few days

:01:27.:01:29.

But magnitude is often no guide to impact, and the earthquake that

:01:30.:01:33.

struck in central Italy in the early hours of this morning

:01:34.:01:36.

The town of Amatrice was particularly badly hit.

:01:37.:01:44.

It's the town famous world over for its Amatriciana pasta sauce

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and was due to celebrate a food festival this weekend.

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The mayor said half the town isn't here any more and that was,

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The scale of destruction clearest from the air.

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The clocktower seems to be the only building to have survived.

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The clock itself, stuck on the time the quake struck.

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Sister Marianna was pulled from the wreckage of her

:02:11.:02:12.

Some of her fellow sisters were still trapped inside.

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When I realised what had happened, I tried to hide myself

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And then I went outside to ask for help but no one heard me.

:02:25.:02:34.

Moving a few miles north, to the town of Accumoli,

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He had been buried under rubble for nine hours.

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Here, an official talks to a woman who is trapped.

:02:43.:02:50.

"Can you breathe?" he asks.

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For the earthquake itself, it is the inevitable CCTV images

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This motorway camera shows the moment it hit, just

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Quite apart from the pictures of an aftermath we are all familiar

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with, there have poignant accounts of rescuers dealing with those

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One witness described "screaming women looking for their children".

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The region was more populated than usual, with tourists

:03:25.:03:26.

Italy is, of course, notoriously vulnerable

:03:27.:03:36.

to earthquakes - and that Umbrian region in the centre

:03:37.:03:39.

Today's quake was actually centred on Norcia in that province.

:03:40.:03:49.

Back in 1997, not too far away, there was a quake that badly

:03:50.:03:55.

affected the city of St Francis, Assisi.

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The quake then was thankfully less deadly.

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It killed 11 but it badly damaged the Basilica and medieval frescoes.

:03:59.:04:01.

Then in 2009, the town of L'Aquilia was near the centre of an earthquake

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I spoke to Professor Dina D'Ayala, co-director of the Earthquake

:04:07.:04:13.

and People Interaction Centre at University College, London.

:04:14.:04:15.

I asked why that region has so many earthquakes.

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The reality is that the Apennine is an emerging mountain range that

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has been created by the, let's say, the thrust of the African plate

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against the Euro Asian plate and this

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There are many faults along the Apennines and any of them at any

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And the Apennines are basically all the way down the centre

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Our reporter, John Sweeney, was nearby the earthquake when it

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struck and he's been on the ground for us today.

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John, you have been out and about, talking to people, tell us about

:05:03.:05:09.

your day and what you found? Well, the day started in the middle of the

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night, 3.30, and to be honest with you, Evan, I thought when the quake

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hit, I was in Perugia, 90 miles from here, I thought John, you have to

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give up drinking, and then I realised it wasn't me that was drunk

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it was the ground was drunk and you really, really can't get across how

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disorientating it is, so suddenly the ground, the earth which should

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be solid is shaking, dancing, it is jelly. It was ghastly. And there was

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a second shock, and this is 90 miles away and again, this fear and it is

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an animal thing, it was really scary, and, so we came down here,

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and we went to a village on the mountain side called Pescara, when

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the earth shook, the whole village collapsed and it is desperate. You

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wander round, you see bank statement, tax bill, kids's toys,

:06:09.:06:13.

people's suitcases and the noise must have been extraordinarily

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frightening, because great big boulders and rocks and houses were

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coming down, people survived in that, and they must have lived

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through something horrible. Nevertheless, I spoke to one woman,

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who lost her auntie and uncle, at least they are missing presumed

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dead, and she was, she was holding back because great big boulders and

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rocks and houses were coming down, people survived in that, and they

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must have lived through something horrible. Nevertheless, I spoke to

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one woman, who lost her auntie and uncle, at least they are missing

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presumed dead, and she was, she was holding back her grief, and I said

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"What is the future for your town? Town? " He said there is no future.

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One of the tragic things is this area is littered with towns and

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villages which have been abandoned this century, last century and 300,

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400 years back, so there is a history of this happening but it is

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frightening to see the scale of the damage and when you get to Amatrice,

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it is grim. Look behind me, you can see some of it, it's a flavour of it

:07:07.:07:09.

and it is difficult to get across just how bad things are here. You

:07:10.:07:13.

make the point of course, there are lots of villages we haven't

:07:14.:07:18.

mentioned, the coverage has focussed on Amatrice, what would you say the

:07:19.:07:21.

situation is on the ground now? How much of a grip are they getting on

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the rescue effort, for example? Well, to get here, it is really

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difficult, the police have closed off the roads and we got a lift from

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the Red Cross. I have to say, all credit to the people of Italy, and

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the volunteers, who have come -- come in their hundreds, maybe their

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thousands to the earthquake zone, but what was sad was as we were

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coming up the mountain, down the mountain there was maybe a dozen,

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maybe more ambulances going down the hill, for this reason. That when the

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quake struck that is when people died, and yes, there are people

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missing, and I am afraid nearly all of those are probably dead and maybe

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there will be some survivor, I hope, so but nevertheless, there isn't,

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you have to look after people, people are homeless and so forth,

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but essentially, the, the death, the big death, that is behind us now.

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The number, 120, I think lit go up, I don't know, but it feels, you look

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at the damage, you think how can people survive this? I feel lit go

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up. John, thank you very much. It's not always easy

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being a Western liberal democracy. We like to think we are tolerant

:08:33.:08:34.

of difference and deviance, but at the same time we do

:08:35.:08:36.

often demand conformity. In this country we've fined people

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who've burned poppies on Remembrance Day while shouting

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gross remarks about British troops. We've fined people for

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insulting the Welsh and, And we don't encourage people

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to walk naked through the streets. Does that make us illiberal

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hypocrites or simply human? Where do you draw that line

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between individual rights and a constructed norm

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of social decency? Well, in France right now

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they are testing that line. Several towns have banned burkinis -

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the full body cover used on beaches You could say it's the French way -

:08:59.:09:01.

trying to create social harmony by imposing a national

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view of shared values, in this case that women are not

:09:06.:09:08.

expected to be too modest. The other way, perhaps more British,

:09:09.:09:11.

is to create social harmony The problem that's emerged

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with the French approach is that it has to be enforced,

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which means policeman - possibly armed -

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on beaches instructing women Bans on wearing the so-called

:09:30.:09:50.

burkini, a full body swimming costume which leaves only the face,

:09:51.:09:54.

hands and feet exposed have been making headlines for the past ten

:09:55.:09:57.

days. The outfit has come to represent

:09:58.:10:01.

France's internal struggling with how it relates to its largest

:10:02.:10:05.

minority, and it is a debate taking place across Europe.

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But in the last 24 hours, these photos of armed French police

:10:12.:10:15.

appearing to force a Muslim woman to remove a long sleeved is tunic while

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she sits on a beach in Nice have spread round world. She is one of at

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least 16 Muslim women in France to have been fined 38 euros for

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according to ticket issued to one woman not wearing an outfit

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respecting good morals and secularism. You have three armed

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cop, forces you to undress, fine you, because of the way you look

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like. I mean, Muslim women feel even more stigmatised, but even if you

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are not Muslim, it's offensive, it is degrade, it is humiliating, and I

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don't think it's the job of cops to do that, I mean they are here to

:11:04.:11:06.

ensure security not to be the fashion police. Nice where the

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photos were taken is one of at least 15 French towns to enforce a ban on

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access to beaches for anyone wearing improper clothing. The word buck

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anyisn't mentioned. The mayor of Cannes, the first French town to

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introduce the restriction said: Tomorrow, France's highest court

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will decide whether the bans can stay in place. It feels like we do

:11:43.:11:47.

not belong here, we are not welcome here, we are not part of this

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country, the problem is French Muslims are French, they are part of

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society, they built this society. They were part of the people who

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built France, literally, so it cannot, we cannot go on like this,

:12:01.:12:06.

and at the moment the climate is despicable. She may well have reason

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to be worried. Marine Le Pen's far right party the Front National are

:12:13.:12:17.

currently topping the polls ahead of next year's Presidential election

:12:18.:12:20.

and everyone else is playing to their tune. Former President Sarkozy

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is promising to place new restrictions on Muslim dress and

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ensure French Muslims adapt to secular life if he is reelected to

:12:32.:12:39.

his old office, in his new book that sets out this provision, M Sarkozy

:12:40.:12:43.

takes a direct swipe at the way we do things here in Britain. We are

:12:44.:12:48.

not Anglo-Saxons who allow communities to live side by side

:12:49.:12:50.

while ignoring one another. The model we have celebrated by

:12:51.:13:03.

Muslims, because it allows us, enables us to be participatory

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citizens without having to have restriction on our human right, I

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find it baffling that a modern, 21st century liberal democracy in Europe,

:13:16.:13:20.

part of the European Union, an original member of the European

:13:21.:13:23.

Union can call itself liberal democracy, with universal values of

:13:24.:13:27.

human rights, and you know, the progressive values of feminism, when

:13:28.:13:31.

we are dictating what women should and should not wear, in public

:13:32.:13:34.

spaces. The idea that women can be fined

:13:35.:13:38.

because of how they dress is baffling to many people here in

:13:39.:13:43.

Britain, not just Muslims. After the London terror attacks in

:13:44.:13:47.

2005, there was much talk about whether a French approach of forced

:13:48.:13:52.

integration could be the best way to prevent further Islamist inspired

:13:53.:13:56.

violence but today, as France grapples with its identity and

:13:57.:14:00.

security, and when even left leaning politicians are telling women what

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to wear, few in Britain are looking to the French for answers.

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Joining me in the studio is Shelina Janmohammed,

:14:10.:14:12.

author of Love in a Headscarf and Generation M.

:14:13.:14:15.

And from our Oxford studio, Douglas Murray, associate

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Shelina, you have it burkini? I have one, it looks like a long T-shirt

:14:18.:14:33.

with a pair of leggings and a swimming cup. Did you know it was

:14:34.:14:37.

going to be such an important statement? It looks like a wet suit

:14:38.:14:42.

that people wear, which we need in British waters. And in the South of

:14:43.:14:48.

France because it is hot. It is not the burkini, it is some kind of

:14:49.:14:53.

meaning being imposed on us. Is that not what this is all about? You have

:14:54.:14:58.

written about this, this is a tokenistic thing, about the politics

:14:59.:15:04.

of picking on some symbol, however how arbitrary, and making a big deal

:15:05.:15:09.

out of something relatively small? Indeed, in the last 18 months more

:15:10.:15:15.

than 200 people have been killed in attacks in France and in the last

:15:16.:15:19.

few days it has come out from Germany that the German government

:15:20.:15:23.

is looking not only at advising the German people to stockpile essential

:15:24.:15:28.

things like water in case of some mass casualty attack but talking

:15:29.:15:32.

about conscription and here we are, with the summer's big story of

:15:33.:15:37.

French and some German politicians competing to out idiot each other by

:15:38.:15:45.

talking about the burkini, this is a European tradition in the face of a

:15:46.:15:49.

genuinely serious societal problem that radical Islam poses across

:15:50.:15:56.

Europe and has its worst demonstrations in extremist attacks

:15:57.:15:59.

like those in Paris and Germany in recent months and in the face of

:16:00.:16:04.

that, politicians compete with each other and the media competes about

:16:05.:16:08.

really frivolous things and the burkini is a frivolous debate, not

:16:09.:16:13.

one life is likely to be saved by a woman being fined on a beach for

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wearing a burkini. And the reason they are doing this is

:16:19.:16:22.

straightforward, neither politicians in France or Germany or anywhere in

:16:23.:16:27.

Europe are able to face up to the massive issues which they have

:16:28.:16:30.

brought about and which they now cannot answer. Let us talk about

:16:31.:16:36.

whether you think there is cowardice, do you agree? They are

:16:37.:16:39.

focusing on the little things because they do not want to talk a

:16:40.:16:44.

big cultural war between Muslims and the West? I think we need to take a

:16:45.:16:49.

moment to step back and imagine for women around the country and the

:16:50.:16:53.

world what it is like to sit on a beach wedding sand castles with your

:16:54.:16:56.

children and have four policemen standing around you with handguns

:16:57.:17:01.

and make you take your top off. Everybody needs to let that sink in.

:17:02.:17:07.

It is why we are discussing this. This is not just about Muslim women,

:17:08.:17:12.

when we have a state and police telling women what they can and

:17:13.:17:16.

cannot wear, we are into dangerous territory and I will tell you which

:17:17.:17:19.

other organisations tell women what to wear at the barrel of a gun and

:17:20.:17:24.

that is Daesh and the extremists and women everywhere should be

:17:25.:17:27.

protesting at this time of behaviour. The Mayor of Cannes said

:17:28.:17:36.

when I took the decision to ban people from walking topless on the

:17:37.:17:39.

streets of Cannes nobody said anything about human rights. He

:17:40.:17:44.

probably did not also say that women who wanted to go for a swim were

:17:45.:17:47.

somehow pledging allegiance to a terrorist organisation. Douglas,

:17:48.:17:55.

what is the better approach? To the problem which you think exists, the

:17:56.:18:00.

French approach that Nicolas Sarkozy promotes or the Anglo-Saxon approach

:18:01.:18:04.

that President Sarkozy says he does not think it is right because we

:18:05.:18:08.

ignore each other and tolerate each other but ignore each other. One of

:18:09.:18:13.

the things that has been said, which is, of course the parallel that has

:18:14.:18:18.

been drawn breaks down when we remember that the French

:18:19.:18:23.

authorities, grotesque as this is, do not do to the women what Isis

:18:24.:18:28.

Amytal abounded, which is raped and killed them, so this parallel goes a

:18:29.:18:33.

certain way but we have to keep this in some context. As for the

:18:34.:18:37.

competing manners of dealing with this, the interesting thing is, in

:18:38.:18:42.

the last 15 years we have had so many manifestations of this,

:18:43.:18:45.

something blows up in London and people say we should maybe look to

:18:46.:18:50.

the French model and then 130 people get gunned down in Paris and people

:18:51.:18:54.

think, we should maybe look at the Norwegian model or the Swedish model

:18:55.:18:59.

or the German model and the fact is, everybody realises that none of

:19:00.:19:03.

these models have worked, they have broken down, none of them were fit

:19:04.:19:09.

for purpose. So when Nicolas Sarkozy, for purely electoral

:19:10.:19:12.

reasons, says the Anglo-Saxon model of people living side by side in

:19:13.:19:17.

parallel communities, if there was no visual video evidence of this, I

:19:18.:19:23.

would suspect that Nicolas Sarkozy has never been to the suburbs of

:19:24.:19:28.

Paris because if he did go to them, he would see that precisely that

:19:29.:19:32.

parallel exists and exists in France. I would argue, worse than

:19:33.:19:36.

any other European country, but it is not a question of who has done

:19:37.:19:41.

this really well or badly, everybody has failed in the integration,

:19:42.:19:44.

everybody has failed because immigration at levels we have had,

:19:45.:19:49.

particularly the levels that Chancellor Merkel has put the

:19:50.:19:53.

continent into having, cannot possibly work. The point is

:19:54.:19:57.

understood, I want Shelina to have her reply to that. The French or

:19:58.:20:03.

British model? Or do you agree with Douglas that no model has worked?

:20:04.:20:08.

The problem is, when we try to stitch together ideas about

:20:09.:20:10.

immigration and what women should and should not wear on the idea that

:20:11.:20:14.

there is some kind of security and terrorism problem, we are

:20:15.:20:17.

approaching the issue the wrong way and that is how we end up with

:20:18.:20:21.

policemen telling women to take off their clothes. We need to think

:20:22.:20:24.

about how we can enforce the rule of law to allow citizens to flourish

:20:25.:20:28.

and that has to be by allowing people to express their values and

:20:29.:20:33.

participate in society and if Muslim women want to do that by the way

:20:34.:20:38.

they dress, but by being part of public society, we have to allow

:20:39.:20:42.

them to express that, that is a fundamental of living in a liberal

:20:43.:20:43.

democracy. Thank you both. It's not just the EU

:20:44.:20:47.

that is facing its challenges A wave of anti-establishment

:20:48.:20:50.

politicians have been questioning some of the basic precepts

:20:51.:20:53.

of the organisation. Donald Trump is fairly blase

:20:54.:20:56.

about Nato, and has suggested he'd only help members who pay their fair

:20:57.:20:59.

share towards defence. And then here, of course,

:21:00.:21:01.

there is Jeremy Corbyn, He's called it an engine

:21:02.:21:03.

for the delivery of oil Would you get involved

:21:04.:21:08.

militarily, if.... I would want to avoid us getting

:21:09.:21:14.

involved militarily by building up the diplomatic relationships,

:21:15.:21:18.

and also trying to not isolate any Everyone would want to avoid

:21:19.:21:23.

it, but would you get I don't wish - I don't wish to go

:21:24.:21:28.

to war, what I want to do is achieve a world where we don't need to go

:21:29.:21:33.

to war, where there Well, I spoke to

:21:34.:21:36.

Anders Fogh Rasmussen. He was once the Prime Minister

:21:37.:21:42.

of Denmark, and then became Secretary General

:21:43.:21:45.

of Nato until 2014. Well, I think his refusal

:21:46.:21:47.

to clearly state that, as a Prime Minister,

:21:48.:21:56.

or possible Prime Minister of the UK, he would not be sure

:21:57.:21:58.

that he would defend Nato allies, has really, really undermined

:21:59.:22:06.

the credibility of Nato, and if he were to carry out

:22:07.:22:12.

what he has said, it would tempt Mr Putin to aggression,

:22:13.:22:16.

to test the resolve of Nato. You really believe that,

:22:17.:22:24.

that the word of a British Prime Minister, assuming he was elected,

:22:25.:22:27.

would President Putin to do what, to invade Poland,

:22:28.:22:30.

or what are you thinking? I don't think that Mr Putin

:22:31.:22:37.

would conduct an open attack on a Nato ally,

:22:38.:22:41.

but what we might see is what we call hybrid warfare,

:22:42.:22:44.

this mix of small green men, and sophisticated disinformation,

:22:45.:22:50.

as we saw when he illegally annexed I mean, one of the things that

:22:51.:22:54.

Mr Corbyn has said - not on the occasion we have been

:22:55.:23:04.

talking about, but on other occasions - he has said that Nato

:23:05.:23:07.

should have basically aestablished itself in 1990, the Cold War

:23:08.:23:10.

was over, but instead of doing that, it expanded, it expanded both

:23:11.:23:13.

to the east and centre of Europe, which obviously Russia thought

:23:14.:23:16.

was perhaps something of a threat, I mean, he used this phrase

:23:17.:23:20.

"Afghanistan is not part of the north Atlantic,

:23:21.:23:25.

so what is Nato going in and working That it has overreached itself

:23:26.:23:28.

massively from its Cold War days As far as I know, Mr Corbyn said

:23:29.:23:34.

that Nato should give up, go home, go away, and almost

:23:35.:23:49.

word-by-word, that's the message I receive from President Putin,

:23:50.:23:53.

who was then a Prime So there's no doubt that

:23:54.:23:56.

if Mr Corbyn were to be elected Prime Minister of the UK,

:23:57.:24:04.

there will be a big, It will really play

:24:05.:24:07.

into the hands of Mr Putin. Well, Corbyn would play

:24:08.:24:13.

into the hands of Putin. Let's talk about the other character

:24:14.:24:18.

elected, potentially electable politician,

:24:19.:24:20.

President Donald Trump. What do those words,

:24:21.:24:22.

President Donald Trump, do to you, Donald Trump has also raised doubts

:24:23.:24:25.

about the credibility of Nato. He has said that the American

:24:26.:24:37.

commitment to defending a Nato ally would be very much dependent

:24:38.:24:44.

on these allies' financial contributions to Nato,

:24:45.:24:51.

and of course, this also plays So, if in a hypothetical situation

:24:52.:24:53.

you would have a President Trump and a Prime Minister Corbyn of the UK,

:24:54.:25:04.

it would significantly weaken Nato. I would say it would weaken

:25:05.:25:10.

the whole western civilisation, I just wonder whether this

:25:11.:25:20.

new politics is terrifying you, because it is a threat

:25:21.:25:22.

to the established order that you have enjoyed and you like,

:25:23.:25:25.

but whether maybe the public are just fed up with what was

:25:26.:25:28.

going on before? There is no doubt that this

:25:29.:25:30.

is an anti-establishment policy, but returning to Mr Corbyn,

:25:31.:25:35.

I know that the Labour Party fancies the basic principles

:25:36.:25:42.

like solidarity, collectivity, None of these principles

:25:43.:25:46.

are fulfilled by Mr Corbyn in his statement, so actually

:25:47.:25:56.

I think he has betrayed the fundamental principles

:25:57.:25:59.

upon which Labour Party usually Thank you very much,

:26:00.:26:03.

Anders Fogh Rasmussen. And a spokesperson for Jeremy Corbyn

:26:04.:26:07.

told us this evening: "Britain's membership

:26:08.:26:14.

of Nato is not in dispute. The aim of both Britain and Nato

:26:15.:26:17.

should be to prevent conflict, and Parliament must have the final

:26:18.:26:20.

say on any military action. Those were the points

:26:21.:26:22.

Jeremy was emphasising Two months ago today,

:26:23.:26:25.

we were adjusting to the news It was not the decision

:26:26.:26:31.

that business wanted - indeed, the Leave campaign tried

:26:32.:26:36.

to turn big business support for Remain into

:26:37.:26:38.

an argument for getting out. Business, meanwhile,

:26:39.:26:45.

warned of some awful Well, among the big beasts

:26:46.:26:46.

of the British business landscape is Sir Martin Sorrell,

:26:47.:26:50.

chief executive of WPP, the world's biggest advertising

:26:51.:26:52.

and communications company. Their results released

:26:53.:26:55.

today are mainly driven by the rest of the world,

:26:56.:26:57.

but were up. And even the UK post-Brexit

:26:58.:27:00.

seemed to have perked up. You are big beast! Were getting

:27:01.:27:19.

mixed signals, April to June, we saw some softening in the UK which we

:27:20.:27:24.

attribute to the pre-Brexit concerns and July, one month, it was better.

:27:25.:27:31.

We saw a little perking up in the UK but having said that, we have the

:27:32.:27:35.

Bank of England correction on interest rates, they had to try to

:27:36.:27:40.

correct the concerned about the economy and of course the pound

:27:41.:27:49.

devalued from 1.5 to the dollar to 1.3 and the euro, and that gives us

:27:50.:27:53.

a huge tailwind with -- with foreign currency in the second half of this

:27:54.:27:59.

year. Your profits will go up as a result of the fall in the pound

:28:00.:28:02.

because you burn stuff in dollars? That is what we were clever enough

:28:03.:28:10.

to do, Eddie 6% of our business, 14% in the UK. That is not something I

:28:11.:28:14.

want to profit from, the weakness of the pound, it is basically the

:28:15.:28:22.

country's stock and it does not augur well unless we get our act

:28:23.:28:25.

together and act like the Germans. The Germans managed to export

:28:26.:28:31.

extremely effectively with the euro even strengthening historically

:28:32.:28:35.

although it has weakened against some currencies so it is really a

:28:36.:28:38.

question of behaving like the Germans. What do you want to happen?

:28:39.:28:46.

There is a dilemma about business certainty, quick or take a long time

:28:47.:28:51.

and work it out? We want certainty, I cannot speak for everybody but the

:28:52.:28:56.

general tone is wanting certainty, a quick fix and let us get on with our

:28:57.:29:02.

lives... The problem is the government wants to lengthen the

:29:03.:29:07.

process and I have been in the US for three weeks and reading the

:29:08.:29:13.

newspapers digitally, you read one weekend, we're not going to trigger

:29:14.:29:19.

Article 50 until the end of 2017, denied by Downing Street, the next

:29:20.:29:23.

week it is April, denied, will it end up somewhere between April

:29:24.:29:30.

and... They are thinking about it! It is a difficult situation. If I

:29:31.:29:34.

told you there was no chance of that never happen, if we slowed

:29:35.:29:38.

everything down, that would be a real dilemma for you! Were on the

:29:39.:29:44.

horns of a dilemma, you are right, I hope we do not fall through but

:29:45.:29:49.

having said that, my personal hope is that the process is so

:29:50.:29:54.

complicated and the results, frankly, are tepid over this

:29:55.:29:58.

two-year period because none two years from triggering Article 50,

:29:59.:30:03.

then we have to get 20 of the 27 member states to approve the terms

:30:04.:30:07.

so we will end up in front of the election, the comments of Owen Smith

:30:08.:30:10.

this morning were interesting. We will end up just before the election

:30:11.:30:17.

in 2020 with the terms agreed, the economy questioning whether it will

:30:18.:30:20.

do better, probably having a tough time because it will try to sort out

:30:21.:30:25.

these trade treaties, we outsource capability to Brussels and then one

:30:26.:30:28.

civil servant telling me before the vote it would take ten years to sort

:30:29.:30:32.

out these trade negotiations and maybe the Prime Minister, Theresa

:30:33.:30:37.

May, what say before the election we need another referendum to confirm

:30:38.:30:42.

what you voted for in 2016... You have seen the deal. Life is not as

:30:43.:30:44.

good as we thought! The Leave campaign managed to turn

:30:45.:30:56.

big business into a disadvantage, the Government thought, the support

:30:57.:30:59.

of big business is going to scare people away? It is not dissimilar to

:31:00.:31:05.

what we have seen on the left-wing Bernie Sanders in America and the

:31:06.:31:09.

right-wing with Donald Trump, and in lots of other, the Five Star

:31:10.:31:13.

Movement in Italy, what we have seen in Spain, what we have seen in

:31:14.:31:19.

Greece, the rise of populism which includes the rise against the

:31:20.:31:23.

factors and the institutions. Do you ever ask yourself, and you are the

:31:24.:31:27.

best paid person in Britain, basically, do you ask yourself

:31:28.:31:31.

onliness on the basis of performance. You said to yourself,

:31:32.:31:36.

have I got something to answer for here, it is partly we didn't share

:31:37.:31:39.

the proseeds of growth, we didn't listen to the parts of the country

:31:40.:31:44.

that haven't kept up with the advertisers in London. I take a bit

:31:45.:31:48.

of exception to that. I am talking about WPP I can't talk for everybody

:31:49.:31:53.

else. We started in 1985 with two people in a room. We have 200,000

:31:54.:32:00.

people directly or indirectly employed in the company in 113

:32:01.:32:06.

countries. We are talking about 600 to 800,000 people. I am very proud

:32:07.:32:12.

of the fact that 600-800,000 people rely for their livelihood on WPP.

:32:13.:32:15.

Long may it last, long may it increase, in the UK, we have gone up

:32:16.:32:20.

from 14,000 people to 18,000 people in the last four or five years when

:32:21.:32:24.

the Government and other people have been worried about employment. So

:32:25.:32:28.

the service sector of which we are a crucial part, I would argue, have

:32:29.:32:35.

been successful. So we have in that sense, shared it. The rewards for

:32:36.:32:38.

the company are based on performance. We went from ?1 million

:32:39.:32:48.

capitalisation to over ?22 billion. 50 percent bigger than any other

:32:49.:32:50.

competitor in our sector. Thank you. You can go back to great

:32:51.:32:55.

divisions of the past 15th century Lancastrians

:32:56.:32:57.

versus Yorkists, 16th century protestants versus catholics,

:32:58.:33:00.

17th century royalists versus roundheads, 19th century free

:33:01.:33:01.

traders vresus corn law supporters. The EU debate has felt

:33:02.:33:04.

like the 21st century equivalent. No civil war as yet,

:33:05.:33:06.

but are we getting over Katie Razzall has been to Stoke -

:33:07.:33:09.

actually to two Stokes - to talk to those on either side,

:33:10.:33:12.

who were out of sync What's it like to be squeezed out

:33:13.:33:15.

of the political debate To be out of kilter with most

:33:16.:33:34.

of the people you meet? On Referendum Day in Stoke-on-Trent,

:33:35.:33:43.

nearly 70% of voters It is one of many parts of Britain

:33:44.:33:45.

that voted overwhelmingly But in all of those places,

:33:46.:33:49.

there were some who formed I found it very difficult coming

:33:50.:33:53.

to work, because I was in tears. I felt like I had woken up

:33:54.:34:00.

to a world I didn't Based in one of Britain's last

:34:01.:34:04.

working Victorian potteries, Lisa Slinn specialises in ceramics,

:34:05.:34:17.

many of which are inspired by Europe On the actual day of the referendum,

:34:18.:34:20.

we had a small discussion around here, and I was basically

:34:21.:34:27.

the only Remainer. It was an incredible feeling

:34:28.:34:32.

being that much of To turn around and say

:34:33.:34:34.

we want to operate in isolation, that is not my view of myself

:34:35.:34:38.

as a European, it is not how My feeling about why people voted

:34:39.:34:41.

to leave here is overwhelmingly I am marrying an immigrant myself,

:34:42.:34:45.

in a couple of weeks' time. People didn't want

:34:46.:35:10.

to listen to anybody. People were so entrenched

:35:11.:35:11.

in their gut feelings and point of view they didn't listen

:35:12.:35:14.

to experts any more. There's happiness around

:35:15.:35:18.

you that you can't share in? I feel like I have this

:35:19.:35:22.

knowledge of doom, really, 150 miles south of Stoke-on-Trent

:35:23.:35:27.

is Stoke Newington, in the heart This is a place of Remainers,

:35:28.:35:42.

somewhere Lisa might feel at home. Hackney overwhelmingly supported

:35:43.:35:49.

Britain's staying in the EU. But even here, some voted

:35:50.:35:51.

against the status quo. Like I'm aware of being in a huge

:35:52.:35:59.

minority and have been ever since I realised how

:36:00.:36:02.

I was going to vote. Out is not the cool choice

:36:03.:36:04.

in Stoke Newington. No, it isn't, but I've never

:36:05.:36:09.

been cool, so... If there are prejudices

:36:10.:36:11.

about people who voted Leave, He is a gay, former restaurant

:36:12.:36:13.

manager, with an open world view. A lot of people who I don't know

:36:14.:36:20.

well, who I have met socially, That is because they think

:36:21.:36:27.

of you as the kind of person... They perceive me to be a person

:36:28.:36:39.

who would vote Remain, because they see me

:36:40.:36:42.

as someone who is literate, who can show an argument,

:36:43.:36:44.

and therefore they think what is this person who can string

:36:45.:36:46.

two words together doing voting out? And I think there are a lot

:36:47.:36:49.

of people who can string two words I had a conversation

:36:50.:36:52.

with a young waiter. He was patently a Remainer,

:36:53.:36:56.

and had nothing but disdain to say. I suspect he knew by the end

:36:57.:36:58.

of our conversation, What are you worried

:36:59.:37:02.

about people thinking? You are worried people will think

:37:03.:37:10.

you're a racist for voting out? And of course, my whole life

:37:11.:37:14.

experience is so contrary. I have been blessed by the people

:37:15.:37:25.

I have met, from Europe They make our country

:37:26.:37:28.

so incredibly diverse, and it saddens me so much that

:37:29.:37:31.

people think automatically that we are racist because we believe

:37:32.:37:34.

in the end of the EU. I do feel that the sadness

:37:35.:37:39.

of a a number of Londoners doesn't let them think

:37:40.:37:42.

about the possibilities We brought our Remain voter

:37:43.:37:44.

from Stoke-on-Trent to meet our Stoke

:37:45.:37:51.

Newington Outer. Could these Brexit minorities

:37:52.:37:56.

find any common ground? I hope it is nice to

:37:57.:38:10.

meet each other. I would love to share your wonderful

:38:11.:38:12.

view of the future, and your very optimistic view that you feel

:38:13.:38:16.

you have been liberated, that this Unfortunately, my gut instinct

:38:17.:38:19.

tells me it is only going to get For me, it is a no-brainer,

:38:20.:38:23.

that we can deal with the world, rather than just Europe,

:38:24.:38:27.

which has become What I hate is the fact my identity

:38:28.:38:29.

can be framed with either Every single person that I have

:38:30.:38:33.

spoken to, who I have asked for facts around why they voted

:38:34.:38:46.

to leave, the first thing they say They do not talk about

:38:47.:38:49.

the economics. Money has no relevance

:38:50.:38:53.

to me, I don't have any. I would like to look at it not

:38:54.:38:56.

through race, not through immigration, not through money,

:38:57.:38:59.

but through people. And the people who enrich our

:39:00.:39:00.

society - our borders are open. The fact you might have to jump

:39:01.:39:03.

a few hoops to go through them I think a lot of people

:39:04.:39:06.

are bewildered now. I think talking to people yesterday,

:39:07.:39:11.

I went back in to speak to some people and they said "We never

:39:12.:39:14.

thought it was really going Quite a few people said "I wish

:39:15.:39:16.

I hadn't voted to leave now." That seems to be the narrative,

:39:17.:39:22.

that people on the outside were misled, and they didn't -

:39:23.:39:25.

they weren't really informed and that therefore they

:39:26.:39:27.

made the wrong choice. Well, I don't think it is right

:39:28.:39:33.

at all to say about anyone's choice I am not an ogre, you're not an ogre

:39:34.:39:36.

we just happen to have contrary views, and those

:39:37.:39:43.

are as valid as each others'. He has made me feel a lot more

:39:44.:39:49.

reassured about people who very seriously thought about this

:39:50.:39:52.

life-changing decision, He very measured, he is very

:39:53.:39:54.

positive, he is a great believer in humanity,

:39:55.:40:03.

and I feel that I can relate to him Just one constructive conversation

:40:04.:40:05.

out of thousands that will need That's it for tonight, I'll be back

:40:06.:40:09.

in the seat tomorrow. But before we go, it's the Newsnight

:40:10.:40:27.

Prom now. Each day we are playing

:40:28.:40:30.

out with an artist from Tonight, soprano Lucy Crowe

:40:31.:40:32.

is singing for us. She is performing Mozart on Friday

:40:33.:40:35.

night at 7.30, and will be live on BBC Radio 3 and BBC Four then,

:40:36.:40:38.

but she's live for us now, not with Mozart, but with a folk

:40:39.:40:41.

song, She Moved Through the Fair. # My own love said to me

:40:42.:40:44.

My mother won't mind # And my father won't slight

:40:45.:41:00.

you for your lack of kind # Then she lay her hand on me

:41:01.:41:05.

And this she did say # It will not be long,

:41:06.:41:15.

love till our wedding day # She stepped away from me

:41:16.:41:22.

and she moved through the fair # And fondly I watched her move

:41:23.:41:34.

here and move there # And she went her way homeward

:41:35.:41:43.

with one star awake # As the swan in the evening

:41:44.:41:52.

move over the lake # Last night she came to me,

:41:53.:42:04.

my dead love came in # So softly she entered,

:42:05.:42:15.

her feet made no din # She came close beside me

:42:16.:42:24.

and this she did say # It will not be long, love, till

:42:25.:42:35.

our wedding day. # A few flashes and bangs coming from

:42:36.:43:14.

the skies overhead overnight. There will still be a few thunderstorms

:43:15.:43:18.

round on Thursday. A humid start, with low cloud on eastern coasts.

:43:19.:43:24.

More heavy thundery rain dropping in northern England a few showers

:43:25.:43:27.

drifting into Northern Ireland, later

:43:28.:43:29.

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