Browse content similar to 07/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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If Saudi Arabia is using British weapons to bomb Yemen,should we be | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
Newsnight learns of turmoil at the heart of the establishment | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
as senior MPs try to water down the draft report | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
We bring you what appears to be the anatomy of a whitewash. | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
I've got documents that show how some MPs want to remove references | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
to violations of international law and calls for a suspenison of arms | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
sales from an influential Parliamentary report. | :00:29. | :00:30. | |
Hilary Benn and a former general will help us unpick it. | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
Time for school for the boys of Bristol Grammar School. | :00:37. | :00:48. | |
And will she ever convince anyone else? | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
Nowadays, grammar schools are very much occupied by kids from affluent | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
backgrounds and very few low-income, working-class kids that we all care | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
about have the opportunity of getting into grammar schools. | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
We're going to make some history together today. | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
It's the best iPhone that we have ever created. | :01:10. | :01:19. | |
Is innovation dead, or has it just moved to Asia? | :01:20. | :01:32. | |
Do weapons sold to Saudi Arabia by Britain break | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
international humanitarian law with their use in Yemen, and if so, | :01:40. | :01:41. | |
Newsnight has learnt of extraordinary divisions betwen | :01:42. | :01:49. | |
Newsnight has learnt of extraordinary divisions between | :01:50. | :01:50. | |
the legislators trying to answer that exact question. | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
Last night, this programme saw evidence that the Committees | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
on Arms Export Controls was recommending Britain | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
stop selling weapons to Saudi for use in Yemen, | :01:57. | :01:58. | |
in a war where many civilians have been bombed. | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
But tonight, further leaks show certain MPs trying to water | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
down the draft report, with some rowing back altogether. | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
The committee met again earlier this evening to try to hammer | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
Gabriel Gatehouse has been following the story. | :02:11. | :02:12. | |
How did it end? Late. We don't know whether it ended in agreement, | :02:13. | :02:25. | |
because the members are sworn to secrecy and won't tell us. Given the | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
divisions, I very much doubt it. The draft report we saw yesterday | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
basically said it was inevitable that weapons supplied by Britain | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
were being used by the Saudis in the coalition in Yemen, in contravention | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
of international humanitarian law, that's basically war crimes. It is a | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
draft, and tonight, we've seen proposed amendments. We've got 11 | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
pages here in total. This is the kind of things that happens with | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
these reports, people write it up and then amendments coming, but what | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
is unusual is to get the insight into the process, especially on this | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
most controversial of issues. Most of the amendments come from two MPs | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
- Crispin Blunt and John Spellar. What we see, really, is a concerted | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
effort to water down, or in some cases completely eliminate, the | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
legality of the issue of Britain's arms sales. Let's look at the | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
summary. Here is the original draft. It says there has been very serious | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
evidence of violations of humanitarian and human rights law by | :03:35. | :03:46. | |
the Saudi led coalition in Yemen, including the targeting of civilian | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
areas and medical facilities will top both John Spellar and Crispin | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
Blunt want the term allegations to be used. Crispin Blunt once | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
references to civilian areas removed altogether. The draft goes on, we | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
believe there must be an independent, United Nations led | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
investigation of these violations, and we call upon the UK Government | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
to support and press for such an investigation. Crispin Blunt | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
slightly softened the language on this to refer to alleged violations | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
by all parties to the conflict. John Spellar wants the reference to an | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
independent investigation removed altogether. Both Blunt and Spellar | :04:29. | :04:36. | |
take exception to the following sentence: | :04:37. | :04:49. | |
They both want that changed to a simple allegation. Then comes the | :04:50. | :04:58. | |
recommendation. We therefore recommend, the draft says, that Her | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
Majesty's Government suspend sales of arms that could be used in Yemen | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
to Saudi Arabia until the independent UN led investigation has | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
come to its conclusions. Crispin Blunt replaces that recommendation | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
with a reference to a legal case that will come before the High Court | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
next year. John Spellar removes it altogether. What might you mentioned | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
Crispin Blunt and John Spellar, talk us through who they are. Crispin | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
Blunt is Conservative MP for Reigate in Surrey, chair of the influential | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
foreign affairs select committee. John Spellar is a former Armed | :05:36. | :05:45. | |
Forces Minister. They are both verbally senior MPs and both have | :05:46. | :05:52. | |
been members of the pro-Saudi or poly parter mail -- Parliamentary | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
group. If you look at MPs' interest, you will see that Crispin Blunt has | :06:00. | :06:09. | |
connections with a military company. He said the work was unrelated to | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
Saudi Arabia. John Spellar has a record of defending arms sales to | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
Saudi Arabia on the basis that it creates British jobs. None of this | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
is unusual, or improper, but it gives us a sense of where people | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
stand. What might you have an idea of the extent of British arms sales | :06:30. | :06:37. | |
to Saudi Arabia. About a third of our arms exports go to Saudi Arabia. | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
What is startling is the extent to which it has increased since the | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
campaign in Yemen. According to the draft report, the UK sold more than | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
?1.3 billion of arms to Saudi Arabia in the first 12 months of the war. | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
To put it in context, that represents a 30 fold increase on the | :06:59. | :07:05. | |
same period of the previous year. Any response tonight from the | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
Government? The Foreign Office, who did not want to come on the | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
programme, sent us a statement, saying what they usually say, that | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
they operate one of the most robust arms export control regimes in the | :07:19. | :07:20. | |
world and that they are satisfied that are in line with international | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
obligations. The problem is that this report in its current form | :07:26. | :07:27. | |
suggests that that is not credible. Well, last night, the Saudi Foreign | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
Minister entered the debate, saying it was in Britain's interest | :07:33. | :07:34. | |
to supply Saudi with arms for Yemen to help them fight | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
Iran-backed rebel groups there, which would increase | :07:38. | :07:39. | |
the risk of terrorism Certainly, British-Saudi | :07:40. | :07:41. | |
relations are complicated - their tentacles go beyond economics | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
to security and diplomacy and So, can we afford to upset | :07:47. | :07:48. | |
Saudi Arabia on the question of arms sales, or does | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
the question betray cowardice? Joining me now, Simon Mayall, | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
former Lieutenant General and former senior British military advisor | :07:56. | :07:57. | |
on the Middle East. And Hilary Benn, former | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
Shadow Foreign Secretary. Very nice to have you both here. | :08:01. | :08:11. | |
Hilary Benn, you wanted the Government to be investigated over | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
this. From what is coming up tonight, what do you make of it? | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
Where are we? It remains to be seen what report the committee on arms | :08:19. | :08:26. | |
export controls finally decides. I've been calling for some months | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
for arms sales to be suspended because there have been numerous | :08:31. | :08:38. | |
reports of breaches of international humanitarian law by both sides. And | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
I think it is important to emphasise that. The rebels and the Saudi | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
coalition. We have legislation, and crazed TV and to -- and criterion to | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
says we should not be exporting if there is a clear risk of serious | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
violations. For me, the issue is, are we upholding the law that | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
Parliament has passed? It seems extraordinary to ignore that, if all | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
the signs are that we are breaking humanitarian law. I don't think that | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
has been proven yet. What Gabriel was indicating was the usual, dare I | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
say, conflicting interests within these committees. There are those, | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
including those who gave evidence. I gave evidence to a committee. There | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
are those who are viscerally against the whole of the defence industry | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
and defence sales. There are people on it who are viscerally against the | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
Saudi Government for a number of reasons. There are people who are | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
deeply, I have to say, misinformed about the realities of the situation | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
in Yemen. And there are those who really are not being really sensible | :09:49. | :09:57. | |
about the threats. Is Hilary Benn one of those? He might have | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
perfectly respectable concerns about issues to do with Saudi Arabia. | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
There is a big regional issue here about who is really responsible when | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
50,000 rebels are able to hold in hock 27 million people in Yemen. And | :10:14. | :10:20. | |
we know where the finger points, I'm afraid, and it is to Iran, who are | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
interfering across the region. Would you accept that Saudi Arabia becomes | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
a lightning rod for this type of criticism? There is perhaps a good | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
taste amongst a lot of the British public over our relations to Saudi. | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
It is an important one. The security cooperation we have with them, | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
because we face a common threat, is important. With people you have a | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
long-standing relationship with, you have to be honest. Simon is right | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
that the rebellion, there is a humanitarian catastrophe in Yemen, | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
and the Saudi led coalition is supported by a UN resolution, but | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
that is about how that campaign is conducted. Given that we have | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
received repeated reports of civilians being hit and affected, | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
and that's why international humanitarian law is so important. | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
The way to resolve the argument, Emily, that has been going on is to | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
have an independent, international investigation. Which we know is not | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
going on because Saudi wants to conducted itself. You are happy for | :11:29. | :11:36. | |
Saudi to conduct its own... 14 nations are in the joint assessment | :11:37. | :11:43. | |
team. What you make of the UN report calling the Saudi operation against | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
civilians widespread and systematic? What would it take to make you | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
uncomfortable with this situation? I have to say, the nature of the | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
operation is extremely complex. But you didn't think it should be | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
investigated. I don't think we have enough weight of evidence, I'm | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
afraid, that tells us we should be suspending one of the most important | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
aspects of our relationship with a key ally in the Gulf, who is | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
involved in a major aspect of countering so-called Islamic State. | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
It is about sceptre -- separatism and security. And whatever they do | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
in Yemen, perhaps we should look farther afield unthinkably risks to | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
Britain. I don't think we should be doing that. The UK Government has | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
showed itself incapable of doing its job. The first part of this year... | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
It is not just the Government, it is people like John Spellar on your | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
site. It has not applied its own legislation and for a long time has | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
said, we've made an assessment and we don't think there are breaches of | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
international humanitarian law. They said that to me as Gabriel was | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
reporting on this programme. Then on the last day of the Parliamentary | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
session, they said, that is not quite right, we have made an | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
assessment. And then on Monday, the Foreign Secretary said, when it | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
comes to this question, are there serious violations? He said, based | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
on the information we have, we don't think that test has been met. We | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
don't know what assessment has been done. In fairness to Saudi Arabia, I | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
don't think it is fair to axe -- expect them to do it in a way that | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
will command confidence. Should we pause are selling of arms and still | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
expect them to help out on all the things Simon was talking about? | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
Would they still do that? In the context of our failure to tackle | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
Assad and our Sunni Muslim allies in the Gulf when we did a nuclear deal | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
with Iran, in the context of not supporting Bahrain, this would be | :13:54. | :14:01. | |
yet another blow to any sense of the Americans and ourselves being | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
reliable allies. So we shut our eyes? We engage, and if you don't | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
wish to be engaged, and they feel deeply insecure at the moment, they | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
will go to people who could not care less about humanitarian law, and | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
that is the Russians, the Chinese and the Iranians. Moral relativism | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
is a dodgy place to be. If we don't sell them arms, the Russians will, | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
and that will be worse. That is a weird place to come from. The report | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
shows that there has not been clear-cut evidence of breaches. That | :14:33. | :14:40. | |
is precisely the argument for having an independent international | :14:41. | :14:42. | |
investigation. The sooner that can be done and we can answer the | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
question about breaches of humanitarian law, we can then take | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
the appropriate action. It is our legislation. The last Labour | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
Government put it on the statute book. It is important to uphold it, | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
including in conversation with our friends and partners. That | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
relationship with Saudi Arabia is important, even though we have | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
criticisms on their record on human rights and the death penalty, which | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
I oppose. Thank you both for coming in. | :15:11. | :15:12. | |
So grammar schools are back in the headlines this evening. | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
After yesterday's accidental ministerial leak reinforced | :15:16. | :15:16. | |
suspicions that they are back on the Government agenda, | :15:17. | :15:18. | |
the Prime Minister was quizzed on the topic earlier | :15:19. | :15:20. | |
today by backbenchers, many of whom would be happy | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
Nick Watt's here and has the latest. | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
Take us through the meeting. The new Prime Minister is more than a few | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
words but she faced into the crumbling dry and the Conservative | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
party by saying that she wants to move ahead with their plans to | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
expand the grammar school system in England and she went to that meeting | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
and said they would be an element of selection but then said, we already | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
have selection in our system, selection by house price. And she | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
would like to do with that, focusing reforms on disadvantaged children | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
and one idea doing the rounds is you could say that grammar schools would | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
have to give 50 presented the places to the poorest children, those are | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
the ones on Free School meals. We thought this was an issue that has | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
bedevilled English politics for the last 40 years so we thought we would | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
take a look at the dilemmas facing Theresa May. | :16:19. | :16:20. | |
It is a line no political leader has been able to cross in four decades. | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
Now Theresa May wants to go where Margaret Thatcher dared not | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
tread as Education Secretary and as Prime Minister. | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
It goes right to the core of what I believe as a Conservative. | :16:36. | :16:44. | |
That we should have the opportunity to progress in life, | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
that where we end up in life should not be dictated by where we start. | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
It does seem to me absurd that if parents and communities | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
want something similar, they should be barred | :16:57. | :16:58. | |
But grammar schools are a toxic issue and there are Tories | :16:59. | :17:09. | |
who agree with Labour, who say they actually fail | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
The evidence is that even if, historically, grammar schools did | :17:13. | :17:21. | |
enable kids from very poor backgrounds to get | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
on and have an opportunity, nowadays grammar schools are very | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
much occupied by kids from affluent backgrounds and very few low income | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
working class kids that we all care about have the opportunity | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
of getting into grammar schools and that is the situation in Kent, | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
it is the situation across the country and the outgoing | :17:41. | :17:42. | |
Chief Inspector of Schools made that point very powerfully the other day. | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
That is the evidence he sees as well. | :17:47. | :17:48. | |
Theresa May believes the reforms lie at the heart of her vision | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
of creating a country that works for everyone and not | :17:53. | :17:54. | |
But the Prime Minister knows that she needs to move with care | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
because there are doubts in her party right up | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
to Education Secretary, Justine Greening, who is adopting, | :18:07. | :18:08. | |
in the words of one minister, a sinuous approach on this. | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
I have been told the reforms will be introduced incrementally, | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
with no wholesale change, in line with the thinking | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
of the brains behind the idea - her joint Chief of | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
Amid signs of unease amongst some of the Tory modernisers sacked | :18:24. | :18:45. | |
by the Prime Minister, Theresa May made clear to the 1922 | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
Committee this evening that she would move with caution. | :18:49. | :18:56. | |
Graeme Brady, who resigned from the Tory front bench in 2007 | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
when David Cameron backed a speech by David Willetts rejecting a return | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
I think the only concern that would arise is if there was any | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
suggestion of a big top-down reorganisation being imposed | :19:09. | :19:10. | |
on areas, whether they wanted it or not. | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
I don't think anybody is talking about that. | :19:15. | :19:16. | |
What we are looking at here, I hope, is a modest measure | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
to provide more freedom, to provide more choice for parents | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
and for communities and to free people up to have these kinds | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
But Labour are confident they can block it. | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
I think that this was not in the Conservative manifesto. | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
Therefore, first of all, the House of Lords will not feel | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
they are bound by the Parliament Act because it was not in the manifesto. | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
There are many Conservative MPs who have doubts or are seriously | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
opposed to this policy as well as many that support it. | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
So I think that first of all, Theresa May will struggle to get | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
this through the House of Commons and then she would struggle to get | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
Theresa May believes she has found the elixir to reach out to | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
Others think she has opened a can of worms. | :20:10. | :20:18. | |
Theresa May was pressed again on her plans for Brexit today | :20:19. | :20:20. | |
She managed to hold off the questions from MPs and insisted | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
that she had no plans to "reveal our hand prematurely". | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
But she's likely to come under more pressure tomorrow | :20:29. | :20:30. | |
Nick is here with me now and has the details. | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
What is happening? Tomorrow we will see the preparations for Britain's | :20:38. | :20:46. | |
Brexit negotiations move from neutral into first gear, Theresa May | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
will host the president of European Council for breakfast and it'll be | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
their first meeting since becoming Prime Minister and has been a | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
rotation in Brussels that Brussels has not triggered Article 50, the | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
mechanism taking the side of the EU and friend Donald Tusk leaves he | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
will have it clear in his mind that Britain will be triggering it and | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
they will be triggering that in the New Year and from behind-the-scenes | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
were getting an idea of the shape of how the UK sees those negotiations. | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
One thing we are hearing is that senior ministers believe that | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
Theresa May will concentrate on what are described as a few iconic | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
issues, maybe only half a dozen, and what that is about is ensuring she | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
manages to get the best deal for British goods and services and they | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
say, 20 million other issues- pensions reform officials in the | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
commission, we believe that to the officials. The other thing is the | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
negotiations will be underweight in the New Year but they expect | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
theatres for the French and German elections. Thank you very much for | :21:50. | :21:51. | |
that. News now of fresh problems | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
for the independent Newsnight has learned | :21:55. | :21:55. | |
that the leaders of one of the main groups representing survivors | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
of alleged abuse - a group who have been designated | :22:00. | :22:01. | |
official participant status by the inquiry - have lost | :22:02. | :22:03. | |
faith in it and will recommend to their members | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
that the group abandon it. We'll speak to the group's | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
leader in a moment. It was over one month ago that we | :22:10. | :22:23. | |
got the unexpected news that Justice Lyle Gothard would quit from this | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
enquiry, the third share in fractionally over 90 years since it | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
was set up. In terms of why she quit, we had a brief obligation of | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
correspondence had been hurt and the new Home Secretary and told us | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
little and that prompted the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee | :22:45. | :22:52. | |
Keith Vaz to call just as Goddard. And we got that committee today. | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
Minus Keith Vaz for reasons that have been well documented and also | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
minus Justice Goddard, who chose to submit written evidence to the | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
committee and in that evidence there was something that is causing | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
problems. She complained that she was unable to select her own staff | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
for the enquiry, her own secretary it and she accused the Home Office | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
of fixing the way staff was elected so the secretary at was stuffed full | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
of Home Office civil servants and she said they were bureaucratic in | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
their approach but it is not that I position that is a problem for the | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
survivors. Learn about to hear from one of the main survivors groups, | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
who represents over 600 children who were in Lambeth's care homes in the | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
latter part of the 20th century and many say they burn abused and the | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
problem here is this is the Home Office, one of the institutions who | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
stand accused of failing children in the past. Lambert is one of 13 | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
strands in this enquiry, it is one of the key once that has been | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
started on, one of the ones that will report back first when this | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
enquiry does finally report stop it was raised in the Select Committee | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
today by Chukka Umunna, the Labour MP who represents the constituency | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
in Lambeth and this issue of Home Office staff essentially having a | :24:18. | :24:19. | |
big role in the enquiry when the Home Office is one of the | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
institutions who stand accused. Amber Rudd said that Justice Goddard | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
was mistaken and she had been free to pick her own staff. Why does this | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
matter? There is an argument to be made that it does not matter, if | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
survivor groups want to lose faith, and they don't want to be part of | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
the enquiry, that is their business and the enquiry carries on but the | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
reality is that firstly they might have important information to impart | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
and it is also important for the enquiry to be seen to be credible, | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
to have the support and the belief of those who were abused and it is | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
also worth saying that this enquiry is under flak from all sides, many | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
say the scope is far too big and it should be scaled back, something | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
Amber Rudd said she did not think should happen. And you have that | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
criticism and also the survivors. Thank you. | :25:13. | :25:14. | |
Well, Raymond Stevenson, representive of the Shirley Oaks | :25:15. | :25:15. | |
What is your sense, your concerns? We had concerned six months ago when | :25:16. | :25:28. | |
we met with the enquiry team and a first question I asked was how many | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
people weren't for the Home Office and we always knew during the | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
investigation that they were implicated in what took place at | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
Shirley Oaks and a failure to intervene so to read the document | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
today from Justice Goddard and read her reasons for being concerned | :25:44. | :25:52. | |
matching the reasons we expressed a while ago is very concerning. Do you | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
really not believe that Home Office staff members today, all these years | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
later, cannot be impartial? We're not going to take that risk. Some of | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
our members have been through investigations before which had Home | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
Office members and staff as part of that and we have been through that | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
so this is about the third investigation Lambeth has been | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
through so what we wanted from this was followed to be truly independent | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
and we were sold the theory that it would be. If Justice Goddard is | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
concerned, we are definitely concerned. There is another issue- | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
the chair has spent 30 years in the social service department, that | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
would have been another condition for us because we are accusing the | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
social services of also being part of this so there has been a sea | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
change in non-2 weeks, and you have Justice Goddard highlighting these | :26:46. | :26:47. | |
concerns that we expressed. What would you recommend to your members? | :26:48. | :26:55. | |
At this moment in time, we recommend that we pull out. We have given the | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
enquiry an opportunity to meet us, we contacted them non-2 weeks ago | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
and we're still waiting for that meeting. We don't know how they will | :27:03. | :27:09. | |
jump through the hurdles of having two people compromised, the Home | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
Office is compromised if they are as involved as it seems they are. If | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
you pull out and others follow, this could be the beginning of the end of | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
the whole thing? We are lucky, we set out to investigate this | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
ourselves and we will produce our own report on the first 100 pages | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
will be presented next week. It is a damning indictment of what took | :27:34. | :27:42. | |
place in Lambeth and also it is a macro of what took place around the | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
country. We wanted to join this enquiry to share our report with | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
them and that they are unable to receive this in an independent we | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
were definitely going to publish it ourselves. Thank you very much for | :27:55. | :27:55. | |
coming in. When disgraced boss Mike Ashley | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
turned up at an inspection of a Sports Direct factory this | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
morning, they frisked him and found Nothing illegal | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
about that, of course. Yet somehow we're conditioned | :28:05. | :28:06. | |
to find raw, ready cash a sign of the underhand these days - | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
or at least something slightly And now there are esteemed voices | :28:10. | :28:11. | |
ready to make the argument A leading US economist suggests that | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
central banks should phase out paper Lewis Goodall tries | :28:16. | :28:23. | |
to figure it out. # Money, money, money, | :28:24. | :28:30. | |
money, money #. How many of us would pay | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
for something with 50s? And even if we did, how many | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
shopkeepers would accept them? This is at the heart of Harvard | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
economist Ken Rogoff's thesis. That high denomination banknotes - | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
?50 notes or $50 bills in the US - are used for organised crime, | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
tax evasion and even spur If you see a briefcase of $100 | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
bills, you know where it is from, as any fan of Breaking Bad | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
will tell you. Rogoff believes that abolishing | :29:03. | :29:04. | |
high-value cash notes would allow central banks to stimulate | :29:05. | :29:16. | |
the economy by making negative At the moment, if negative rates | :29:17. | :29:18. | |
are in place, ie banks are charging you to deposit money, | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
you may as well hold them in cash. By abolishing high-value notes, | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
you remove that option and make But from gold coins to the gold | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
standard - money has existed in high-value form | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
since the ancient world. How prepared would people be | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
to give up that right? Ask the Weimar Republic | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
or Harold Wilson - politicians have oft come unstuck | :29:44. | :29:45. | |
messing with our money. In this uncertain financial world, | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
it might take a brave one to ask us It doesn't mean, of course, | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
that the pound here in Britain, in your pocket or purse | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
or in your bag, has been devalued. Ken Rogoff joins us now | :29:57. | :30:04. | |
from Boston and Fran Boait - the Executive director | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
of Positive Money - is with me now. Thank you for joining us. Ken | :30:08. | :30:22. | |
Rogoff, how do you see this working? To be clear, I am in favour of less | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
cash, rather than being without cash. I think it would be eight | :30:26. | :30:36. | |
mistake. It has convenience for small transactions. If you look | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
around the world, countries are swimming in big bills that most | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
people never see. There was a joke that the 500 euros note, everyone | :30:47. | :30:54. | |
knew about it but no one had seen one. We have 36 $100 bills for every | :30:55. | :31:05. | |
man woman and child in America, on what the same in the Eurozone and | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
Japan. Central banks have been surveyed and they say, people love | :31:10. | :31:17. | |
our currency. If we are swimming in cash we never use and most of us | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
never see, what is the point? In the UK, cash is only 3% of all the money | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
that we use. The remaining 97% is digital that we use with our debit | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
cards. It is an interesting idea to move towards less cash in society, | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
but a big part of the debate which isn't being discussed is, what is | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
that cash replaced with? The electronic money we use through | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
debit cards is not the electronic version of cash. They are different | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
because of the institutions that create them. Is that not the point, | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
that suddenly you have the privatisation of money? If I have | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
wads of cash, I can keep it under the bed whatever I want, but as soon | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
as it belongs in a digital structure like a bank or in society, they can | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
do with that what they want. The UK is in a different position than the | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
United States and Europe. You don't have... We have the $100 bill, euro | :32:17. | :32:25. | |
has the 500 euros bill. Singapore has a 10,000 note. The UK is in a | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
different position. That said, if you look at actual sales and retail | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
shops, they are not using so much these large notes. But if you look | :32:36. | :32:46. | |
at when they seized drug... Big busts and so on, they find them a | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
lot. Cash is declining in the legal economy and rising in the | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
underground economy. It is an ideal striking a balance. And there is | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
this seediness that is associated with wads of cash. If you open a | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
suitcase and it has cash, you don't think what a wonderful surprise. You | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
think of what on earth has gone on here? There is that connotation. I | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
am not denying that there are issues of tax evasion, and I'm not denying | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
that abolishing big notes could help with that. But it throws a bigger | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
questions, such as, what is money for? How do we design a system that | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
works were people? I think if we're going to worry about tax issues, the | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
seediness of big suitcases full of money, the biggest tax justice | :33:33. | :33:40. | |
issues are around corporate tax avoidance. I don't think they are | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
bigger quantitatively. What about the idea that money is a very public | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
currency, for want of a better word? As soon as it is digital, you lose | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
that. I'm not getting rid of smaller notes that most people use. It's | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
perfectly possible, and I discuss it in my book, for the Government to | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
provide its own electronic currency at a subsidised rate. In the UK, | :34:07. | :34:15. | |
this has been long considered, but I thought about giving low income | :34:16. | :34:23. | |
people debit cards. We need to think about central banks issuing digital | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
cash. There is more and more research to say that they want to | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
move in this the Wrexham. At the same time, we need to look at the | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
actual system and how it works, and the structure that underpins it. It | :34:35. | :34:41. | |
is not necessarily that simple to move to an economy that gets rid of | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
cash and replaces it with a digital currency completely. But I think I | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
would agree that we need to move in that direction, and we need to think | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
about money being a public good and how we make it work for society. Do | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
you think there is ever a danger, when you start to play around with | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
money in this way, that you destroy the value of it? I don't think so, | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
but I look at it very carefully in the book. There are all sorts of | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
subtle issues about, if you get rid of too many notes, can the central | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
bank still control the currency? If currency were all electronic, it | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
looks different from Treasury bills and it is difficult to look at | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
deposits. It has to be done slowly. You don't know what is going to | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
happen. I am looking at ten, 20 years, and once you get going, I | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
think it is important to include financial inclusion. Last word. | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
Negative interest rates are bad idea. There are better ways to | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
stimulate and boost demand. I couldn't disagree more! Thank you | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
both very much. Alongside Watt, Faraday | :35:51. | :35:52. | |
and Stevenson, the launch of an identical, expensive | :35:53. | :35:53. | |
new rectangle that is missing a phone jack probably | :35:54. | :35:55. | |
won't warrant its own set of commemorative stamps | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
in years to come. Which heralds the question | :35:59. | :36:00. | |
of the night. If the brand new iPhone 7 | :36:01. | :36:02. | |
is the best our leading inventors can do to excite us, | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
have we reached the high Or does the absentee phone jack | :36:06. | :36:07. | |
signify greatness to come? Ladies and gentlemen, | :36:08. | :36:14. | |
our presentation will begin shortly. So, how does the CEO of the world's | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
most valuable company begin his big | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
product launch of the year? # I did it all #. | :36:24. | :36:35. | |
. You get the sense there is a bit | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
more sizzle than sausage | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
with Apple at the moment. It's the best iPhone | :36:44. | :36:45. | |
that we have ever created. Yes, there were some neat | :36:46. | :36:47. | |
new features but nothing to rival the startling | :36:48. | :36:49. | |
innovation of the Jobs era. At some point the new | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
computers will end up collectors like Max Smith, | :36:55. | :36:56. | |
a repair shop in East London. But some economists believe | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
that we are now at the end of this period | :37:03. | :37:04. | |
of extraordinary technological That all the big changes that have | :37:05. | :37:06. | |
transformed our societies The challenge for the future | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
is how do we satisfy the wants and needs | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
of more and more people | :37:17. | :37:17. | |
with minimal economic growth? Economist Robert Gordon created this | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
graph showing economic growth in the leading | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
industrial nation - that was first There has been a blip, | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
he says, over the past 100 years from innovations like | :37:30. | :37:36. | |
the steam locomotive, the telegraph But the trend, he says, | :37:37. | :37:38. | |
is very much now downwards. The problem we face is that | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
all these great inventions, we have | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
to match them in the future. And my prediction that we're not | :37:47. | :37:57. | |
going to match them brings us down from the original 2% growth down to | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
0.2%, the fanciful curve that I drew you at the beginning. The theory is | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
that most of the huge advantages of organisation, allegation, sanitation | :38:11. | :38:12. | |
and computing have already been raped. What is left is marginal, | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
incremental evolution, not revolution. According to other | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
academics, this pessimism couldn't be more unwarranted. I think the | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
really important age of innovation is still ahead of us. We have | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
innovated a lot in terms of gaining control of the world outside, but we | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
haven't really began in terms of changing the world inside us, just | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
as in the Bible God has the ability to create animals and plants and | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
humans are according to his wishes, Sylvie are now gaining with the help | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
of biotechnology and artificial intelligence is the ability to start | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
engineering and manufacturing living beings. I think that in the next | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
century, in the 21st-century, the main products of the human economy | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
will not be textiles and food and iPhones, they will be bodies, brains | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
and minds. Some economists believe that what is missing today are | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
engaged state institutions to set the direction for innovation. Beef | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
fame Apollo man on the and programme from Nasa actually ended up over | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
time, and that is another thing, allowing that time to take place, | :39:27. | :39:34. | |
ended up producing most of the technology that is in the iPhone. | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
What makes the smart -- iPhone smart not stupid are things like GPS, | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
voice-activated systems, as well as the touch-screen display. All those | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
were publicly financed. Without some idea of the big goals for | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
innovation, perhaps we end up pursuing the short-term, marginal | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
and trivial. And producing a pristine, Mira- like surface. There | :40:01. | :40:10. | |
is a parallel with the hierarchy of needs. Our society progresses, we go | :40:11. | :40:18. | |
for things like focusing on survival, to establishing the social | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
order, to self actualisation. We become more obsessed with ourselves, | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
and that is what innovators are responding to. It may be, then, that | :40:27. | :40:33. | |
the future will contain innovation, but not innovation that leads to | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
economic growth or makes the growing global population more prosperous, | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
and that truly is a challenge for the innovators. | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
And that was it from David Grossman. Almost time to go, but one story to | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
bring you on the front of the Times. MPs will be leaving Parliament in a | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
?4 billion restoration plan. It is the first time since 1941. Theresa | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
May taking action to recommend that they decamp, and the MPs will go. | :41:04. | :41:12. | |
The House of Lords will move to the Queen Elizabeth conference centre. | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
That's it for tonight. Tomorrow will be a very special day | :41:18. | :41:19. | |
in the hearts of true sci-fi fans - it's the 50th anniversary | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
of the first ever screening And just in case you think | :41:24. | :41:25. | |
it was just a TV show, ask the staff at Nasa | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
or the Jet Propulsion Laboratory Ask any Western scientist | :41:31. | :41:32. | |
or engineer involved The largest federation of | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
scientists, engineers and explorers. So, from all of us here | :41:36. | :41:42. | |
at Nasa headquarters... | :41:43. | :41:45. |