07/09/2016 Newsnight


07/09/2016

Is the report into Saudi arms sales being whitewashed? Will grammar schools return? Plus, new developments in the child abuse inquiry, going cashless, and Iphones and innovation.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 07/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

If Saudi Arabia is using British weapons to bomb Yemen,should we be

:00:00.:00:08.

Newsnight learns of turmoil at the heart of the establishment

:00:09.:00:12.

as senior MPs try to water down the draft report

:00:13.:00:15.

We bring you what appears to be the anatomy of a whitewash.

:00:16.:00:21.

I've got documents that show how some MPs want to remove references

:00:22.:00:25.

to violations of international law and calls for a suspenison of arms

:00:26.:00:28.

sales from an influential Parliamentary report.

:00:29.:00:30.

Hilary Benn and a former general will help us unpick it.

:00:31.:00:36.

Time for school for the boys of Bristol Grammar School.

:00:37.:00:48.

And will she ever convince anyone else?

:00:49.:00:54.

Nowadays, grammar schools are very much occupied by kids from affluent

:00:55.:00:56.

backgrounds and very few low-income, working-class kids that we all care

:00:57.:00:59.

about have the opportunity of getting into grammar schools.

:01:00.:01:03.

We're going to make some history together today.

:01:04.:01:09.

It's the best iPhone that we have ever created.

:01:10.:01:19.

Is innovation dead, or has it just moved to Asia?

:01:20.:01:32.

Do weapons sold to Saudi Arabia by Britain break

:01:33.:01:39.

international humanitarian law with their use in Yemen, and if so,

:01:40.:01:41.

Newsnight has learnt of extraordinary divisions betwen

:01:42.:01:49.

Newsnight has learnt of extraordinary divisions between

:01:50.:01:50.

the legislators trying to answer that exact question.

:01:51.:01:52.

Last night, this programme saw evidence that the Committees

:01:53.:01:54.

on Arms Export Controls was recommending Britain

:01:55.:01:56.

stop selling weapons to Saudi for use in Yemen,

:01:57.:01:58.

in a war where many civilians have been bombed.

:01:59.:02:01.

But tonight, further leaks show certain MPs trying to water

:02:02.:02:05.

down the draft report, with some rowing back altogether.

:02:06.:02:07.

The committee met again earlier this evening to try to hammer

:02:08.:02:10.

Gabriel Gatehouse has been following the story.

:02:11.:02:12.

How did it end? Late. We don't know whether it ended in agreement,

:02:13.:02:25.

because the members are sworn to secrecy and won't tell us. Given the

:02:26.:02:31.

divisions, I very much doubt it. The draft report we saw yesterday

:02:32.:02:35.

basically said it was inevitable that weapons supplied by Britain

:02:36.:02:42.

were being used by the Saudis in the coalition in Yemen, in contravention

:02:43.:02:45.

of international humanitarian law, that's basically war crimes. It is a

:02:46.:02:50.

draft, and tonight, we've seen proposed amendments. We've got 11

:02:51.:02:55.

pages here in total. This is the kind of things that happens with

:02:56.:02:58.

these reports, people write it up and then amendments coming, but what

:02:59.:03:03.

is unusual is to get the insight into the process, especially on this

:03:04.:03:08.

most controversial of issues. Most of the amendments come from two MPs

:03:09.:03:14.

- Crispin Blunt and John Spellar. What we see, really, is a concerted

:03:15.:03:19.

effort to water down, or in some cases completely eliminate, the

:03:20.:03:26.

legality of the issue of Britain's arms sales. Let's look at the

:03:27.:03:29.

summary. Here is the original draft. It says there has been very serious

:03:30.:03:34.

evidence of violations of humanitarian and human rights law by

:03:35.:03:46.

the Saudi led coalition in Yemen, including the targeting of civilian

:03:47.:03:49.

areas and medical facilities will top both John Spellar and Crispin

:03:50.:03:54.

Blunt want the term allegations to be used. Crispin Blunt once

:03:55.:04:00.

references to civilian areas removed altogether. The draft goes on, we

:04:01.:04:05.

believe there must be an independent, United Nations led

:04:06.:04:10.

investigation of these violations, and we call upon the UK Government

:04:11.:04:16.

to support and press for such an investigation. Crispin Blunt

:04:17.:04:19.

slightly softened the language on this to refer to alleged violations

:04:20.:04:25.

by all parties to the conflict. John Spellar wants the reference to an

:04:26.:04:28.

independent investigation removed altogether. Both Blunt and Spellar

:04:29.:04:36.

take exception to the following sentence:

:04:37.:04:49.

They both want that changed to a simple allegation. Then comes the

:04:50.:04:58.

recommendation. We therefore recommend, the draft says, that Her

:04:59.:05:02.

Majesty's Government suspend sales of arms that could be used in Yemen

:05:03.:05:08.

to Saudi Arabia until the independent UN led investigation has

:05:09.:05:12.

come to its conclusions. Crispin Blunt replaces that recommendation

:05:13.:05:15.

with a reference to a legal case that will come before the High Court

:05:16.:05:20.

next year. John Spellar removes it altogether. What might you mentioned

:05:21.:05:26.

Crispin Blunt and John Spellar, talk us through who they are. Crispin

:05:27.:05:31.

Blunt is Conservative MP for Reigate in Surrey, chair of the influential

:05:32.:05:35.

foreign affairs select committee. John Spellar is a former Armed

:05:36.:05:45.

Forces Minister. They are both verbally senior MPs and both have

:05:46.:05:52.

been members of the pro-Saudi or poly parter mail -- Parliamentary

:05:53.:05:59.

group. If you look at MPs' interest, you will see that Crispin Blunt has

:06:00.:06:09.

connections with a military company. He said the work was unrelated to

:06:10.:06:14.

Saudi Arabia. John Spellar has a record of defending arms sales to

:06:15.:06:18.

Saudi Arabia on the basis that it creates British jobs. None of this

:06:19.:06:24.

is unusual, or improper, but it gives us a sense of where people

:06:25.:06:29.

stand. What might you have an idea of the extent of British arms sales

:06:30.:06:37.

to Saudi Arabia. About a third of our arms exports go to Saudi Arabia.

:06:38.:06:43.

What is startling is the extent to which it has increased since the

:06:44.:06:47.

campaign in Yemen. According to the draft report, the UK sold more than

:06:48.:06:54.

?1.3 billion of arms to Saudi Arabia in the first 12 months of the war.

:06:55.:06:58.

To put it in context, that represents a 30 fold increase on the

:06:59.:07:05.

same period of the previous year. Any response tonight from the

:07:06.:07:09.

Government? The Foreign Office, who did not want to come on the

:07:10.:07:12.

programme, sent us a statement, saying what they usually say, that

:07:13.:07:18.

they operate one of the most robust arms export control regimes in the

:07:19.:07:20.

world and that they are satisfied that are in line with international

:07:21.:07:25.

obligations. The problem is that this report in its current form

:07:26.:07:27.

suggests that that is not credible. Well, last night, the Saudi Foreign

:07:28.:07:32.

Minister entered the debate, saying it was in Britain's interest

:07:33.:07:34.

to supply Saudi with arms for Yemen to help them fight

:07:35.:07:37.

Iran-backed rebel groups there, which would increase

:07:38.:07:39.

the risk of terrorism Certainly, British-Saudi

:07:40.:07:41.

relations are complicated - their tentacles go beyond economics

:07:42.:07:46.

to security and diplomacy and So, can we afford to upset

:07:47.:07:48.

Saudi Arabia on the question of arms sales, or does

:07:49.:07:52.

the question betray cowardice? Joining me now, Simon Mayall,

:07:53.:07:55.

former Lieutenant General and former senior British military advisor

:07:56.:07:57.

on the Middle East. And Hilary Benn, former

:07:58.:08:00.

Shadow Foreign Secretary. Very nice to have you both here.

:08:01.:08:11.

Hilary Benn, you wanted the Government to be investigated over

:08:12.:08:14.

this. From what is coming up tonight, what do you make of it?

:08:15.:08:18.

Where are we? It remains to be seen what report the committee on arms

:08:19.:08:26.

export controls finally decides. I've been calling for some months

:08:27.:08:30.

for arms sales to be suspended because there have been numerous

:08:31.:08:38.

reports of breaches of international humanitarian law by both sides. And

:08:39.:08:41.

I think it is important to emphasise that. The rebels and the Saudi

:08:42.:08:47.

coalition. We have legislation, and crazed TV and to -- and criterion to

:08:48.:08:53.

says we should not be exporting if there is a clear risk of serious

:08:54.:08:58.

violations. For me, the issue is, are we upholding the law that

:08:59.:09:02.

Parliament has passed? It seems extraordinary to ignore that, if all

:09:03.:09:07.

the signs are that we are breaking humanitarian law. I don't think that

:09:08.:09:13.

has been proven yet. What Gabriel was indicating was the usual, dare I

:09:14.:09:19.

say, conflicting interests within these committees. There are those,

:09:20.:09:23.

including those who gave evidence. I gave evidence to a committee. There

:09:24.:09:28.

are those who are viscerally against the whole of the defence industry

:09:29.:09:33.

and defence sales. There are people on it who are viscerally against the

:09:34.:09:37.

Saudi Government for a number of reasons. There are people who are

:09:38.:09:42.

deeply, I have to say, misinformed about the realities of the situation

:09:43.:09:48.

in Yemen. And there are those who really are not being really sensible

:09:49.:09:57.

about the threats. Is Hilary Benn one of those? He might have

:09:58.:10:01.

perfectly respectable concerns about issues to do with Saudi Arabia.

:10:02.:10:07.

There is a big regional issue here about who is really responsible when

:10:08.:10:13.

50,000 rebels are able to hold in hock 27 million people in Yemen. And

:10:14.:10:20.

we know where the finger points, I'm afraid, and it is to Iran, who are

:10:21.:10:25.

interfering across the region. Would you accept that Saudi Arabia becomes

:10:26.:10:30.

a lightning rod for this type of criticism? There is perhaps a good

:10:31.:10:36.

taste amongst a lot of the British public over our relations to Saudi.

:10:37.:10:42.

It is an important one. The security cooperation we have with them,

:10:43.:10:45.

because we face a common threat, is important. With people you have a

:10:46.:10:50.

long-standing relationship with, you have to be honest. Simon is right

:10:51.:10:57.

that the rebellion, there is a humanitarian catastrophe in Yemen,

:10:58.:11:02.

and the Saudi led coalition is supported by a UN resolution, but

:11:03.:11:06.

that is about how that campaign is conducted. Given that we have

:11:07.:11:11.

received repeated reports of civilians being hit and affected,

:11:12.:11:15.

and that's why international humanitarian law is so important.

:11:16.:11:19.

The way to resolve the argument, Emily, that has been going on is to

:11:20.:11:25.

have an independent, international investigation. Which we know is not

:11:26.:11:28.

going on because Saudi wants to conducted itself. You are happy for

:11:29.:11:36.

Saudi to conduct its own... 14 nations are in the joint assessment

:11:37.:11:43.

team. What you make of the UN report calling the Saudi operation against

:11:44.:11:50.

civilians widespread and systematic? What would it take to make you

:11:51.:11:54.

uncomfortable with this situation? I have to say, the nature of the

:11:55.:12:00.

operation is extremely complex. But you didn't think it should be

:12:01.:12:04.

investigated. I don't think we have enough weight of evidence, I'm

:12:05.:12:09.

afraid, that tells us we should be suspending one of the most important

:12:10.:12:13.

aspects of our relationship with a key ally in the Gulf, who is

:12:14.:12:18.

involved in a major aspect of countering so-called Islamic State.

:12:19.:12:25.

It is about sceptre -- separatism and security. And whatever they do

:12:26.:12:29.

in Yemen, perhaps we should look farther afield unthinkably risks to

:12:30.:12:34.

Britain. I don't think we should be doing that. The UK Government has

:12:35.:12:38.

showed itself incapable of doing its job. The first part of this year...

:12:39.:12:43.

It is not just the Government, it is people like John Spellar on your

:12:44.:12:48.

site. It has not applied its own legislation and for a long time has

:12:49.:12:51.

said, we've made an assessment and we don't think there are breaches of

:12:52.:12:55.

international humanitarian law. They said that to me as Gabriel was

:12:56.:13:00.

reporting on this programme. Then on the last day of the Parliamentary

:13:01.:13:03.

session, they said, that is not quite right, we have made an

:13:04.:13:07.

assessment. And then on Monday, the Foreign Secretary said, when it

:13:08.:13:13.

comes to this question, are there serious violations? He said, based

:13:14.:13:16.

on the information we have, we don't think that test has been met. We

:13:17.:13:20.

don't know what assessment has been done. In fairness to Saudi Arabia, I

:13:21.:13:26.

don't think it is fair to axe -- expect them to do it in a way that

:13:27.:13:30.

will command confidence. Should we pause are selling of arms and still

:13:31.:13:37.

expect them to help out on all the things Simon was talking about?

:13:38.:13:43.

Would they still do that? In the context of our failure to tackle

:13:44.:13:49.

Assad and our Sunni Muslim allies in the Gulf when we did a nuclear deal

:13:50.:13:53.

with Iran, in the context of not supporting Bahrain, this would be

:13:54.:14:01.

yet another blow to any sense of the Americans and ourselves being

:14:02.:14:04.

reliable allies. So we shut our eyes? We engage, and if you don't

:14:05.:14:10.

wish to be engaged, and they feel deeply insecure at the moment, they

:14:11.:14:15.

will go to people who could not care less about humanitarian law, and

:14:16.:14:19.

that is the Russians, the Chinese and the Iranians. Moral relativism

:14:20.:14:24.

is a dodgy place to be. If we don't sell them arms, the Russians will,

:14:25.:14:27.

and that will be worse. That is a weird place to come from. The report

:14:28.:14:32.

shows that there has not been clear-cut evidence of breaches. That

:14:33.:14:40.

is precisely the argument for having an independent international

:14:41.:14:42.

investigation. The sooner that can be done and we can answer the

:14:43.:14:46.

question about breaches of humanitarian law, we can then take

:14:47.:14:51.

the appropriate action. It is our legislation. The last Labour

:14:52.:14:54.

Government put it on the statute book. It is important to uphold it,

:14:55.:14:59.

including in conversation with our friends and partners. That

:15:00.:15:03.

relationship with Saudi Arabia is important, even though we have

:15:04.:15:06.

criticisms on their record on human rights and the death penalty, which

:15:07.:15:10.

I oppose. Thank you both for coming in.

:15:11.:15:12.

So grammar schools are back in the headlines this evening.

:15:13.:15:15.

After yesterday's accidental ministerial leak reinforced

:15:16.:15:16.

suspicions that they are back on the Government agenda,

:15:17.:15:18.

the Prime Minister was quizzed on the topic earlier

:15:19.:15:20.

today by backbenchers, many of whom would be happy

:15:21.:15:23.

Nick Watt's here and has the latest.

:15:24.:15:29.

Take us through the meeting. The new Prime Minister is more than a few

:15:30.:15:35.

words but she faced into the crumbling dry and the Conservative

:15:36.:15:39.

party by saying that she wants to move ahead with their plans to

:15:40.:15:42.

expand the grammar school system in England and she went to that meeting

:15:43.:15:47.

and said they would be an element of selection but then said, we already

:15:48.:15:52.

have selection in our system, selection by house price. And she

:15:53.:15:57.

would like to do with that, focusing reforms on disadvantaged children

:15:58.:16:01.

and one idea doing the rounds is you could say that grammar schools would

:16:02.:16:05.

have to give 50 presented the places to the poorest children, those are

:16:06.:16:09.

the ones on Free School meals. We thought this was an issue that has

:16:10.:16:14.

bedevilled English politics for the last 40 years so we thought we would

:16:15.:16:18.

take a look at the dilemmas facing Theresa May.

:16:19.:16:20.

It is a line no political leader has been able to cross in four decades.

:16:21.:16:25.

Now Theresa May wants to go where Margaret Thatcher dared not

:16:26.:16:31.

tread as Education Secretary and as Prime Minister.

:16:32.:16:35.

It goes right to the core of what I believe as a Conservative.

:16:36.:16:44.

That we should have the opportunity to progress in life,

:16:45.:16:48.

that where we end up in life should not be dictated by where we start.

:16:49.:16:51.

It does seem to me absurd that if parents and communities

:16:52.:16:56.

want something similar, they should be barred

:16:57.:16:58.

But grammar schools are a toxic issue and there are Tories

:16:59.:17:09.

who agree with Labour, who say they actually fail

:17:10.:17:12.

The evidence is that even if, historically, grammar schools did

:17:13.:17:21.

enable kids from very poor backgrounds to get

:17:22.:17:25.

on and have an opportunity, nowadays grammar schools are very

:17:26.:17:31.

much occupied by kids from affluent backgrounds and very few low income

:17:32.:17:34.

working class kids that we all care about have the opportunity

:17:35.:17:37.

of getting into grammar schools and that is the situation in Kent,

:17:38.:17:40.

it is the situation across the country and the outgoing

:17:41.:17:42.

Chief Inspector of Schools made that point very powerfully the other day.

:17:43.:17:46.

That is the evidence he sees as well.

:17:47.:17:48.

Theresa May believes the reforms lie at the heart of her vision

:17:49.:17:52.

of creating a country that works for everyone and not

:17:53.:17:54.

But the Prime Minister knows that she needs to move with care

:17:55.:18:00.

because there are doubts in her party right up

:18:01.:18:06.

to Education Secretary, Justine Greening, who is adopting,

:18:07.:18:08.

in the words of one minister, a sinuous approach on this.

:18:09.:18:11.

I have been told the reforms will be introduced incrementally,

:18:12.:18:14.

with no wholesale change, in line with the thinking

:18:15.:18:20.

of the brains behind the idea - her joint Chief of

:18:21.:18:23.

Amid signs of unease amongst some of the Tory modernisers sacked

:18:24.:18:45.

by the Prime Minister, Theresa May made clear to the 1922

:18:46.:18:48.

Committee this evening that she would move with caution.

:18:49.:18:56.

Graeme Brady, who resigned from the Tory front bench in 2007

:18:57.:18:59.

when David Cameron backed a speech by David Willetts rejecting a return

:19:00.:19:02.

I think the only concern that would arise is if there was any

:19:03.:19:08.

suggestion of a big top-down reorganisation being imposed

:19:09.:19:10.

on areas, whether they wanted it or not.

:19:11.:19:14.

I don't think anybody is talking about that.

:19:15.:19:16.

What we are looking at here, I hope, is a modest measure

:19:17.:19:19.

to provide more freedom, to provide more choice for parents

:19:20.:19:23.

and for communities and to free people up to have these kinds

:19:24.:19:27.

But Labour are confident they can block it.

:19:28.:19:32.

I think that this was not in the Conservative manifesto.

:19:33.:19:36.

Therefore, first of all, the House of Lords will not feel

:19:37.:19:39.

they are bound by the Parliament Act because it was not in the manifesto.

:19:40.:19:44.

There are many Conservative MPs who have doubts or are seriously

:19:45.:19:48.

opposed to this policy as well as many that support it.

:19:49.:19:54.

So I think that first of all, Theresa May will struggle to get

:19:55.:19:58.

this through the House of Commons and then she would struggle to get

:19:59.:20:01.

Theresa May believes she has found the elixir to reach out to

:20:02.:20:09.

Others think she has opened a can of worms.

:20:10.:20:18.

Theresa May was pressed again on her plans for Brexit today

:20:19.:20:20.

She managed to hold off the questions from MPs and insisted

:20:21.:20:25.

that she had no plans to "reveal our hand prematurely".

:20:26.:20:28.

But she's likely to come under more pressure tomorrow

:20:29.:20:30.

Nick is here with me now and has the details.

:20:31.:20:37.

What is happening? Tomorrow we will see the preparations for Britain's

:20:38.:20:46.

Brexit negotiations move from neutral into first gear, Theresa May

:20:47.:20:50.

will host the president of European Council for breakfast and it'll be

:20:51.:20:55.

their first meeting since becoming Prime Minister and has been a

:20:56.:20:59.

rotation in Brussels that Brussels has not triggered Article 50, the

:21:00.:21:02.

mechanism taking the side of the EU and friend Donald Tusk leaves he

:21:03.:21:07.

will have it clear in his mind that Britain will be triggering it and

:21:08.:21:11.

they will be triggering that in the New Year and from behind-the-scenes

:21:12.:21:16.

were getting an idea of the shape of how the UK sees those negotiations.

:21:17.:21:19.

One thing we are hearing is that senior ministers believe that

:21:20.:21:23.

Theresa May will concentrate on what are described as a few iconic

:21:24.:21:28.

issues, maybe only half a dozen, and what that is about is ensuring she

:21:29.:21:33.

manages to get the best deal for British goods and services and they

:21:34.:21:38.

say, 20 million other issues- pensions reform officials in the

:21:39.:21:42.

commission, we believe that to the officials. The other thing is the

:21:43.:21:46.

negotiations will be underweight in the New Year but they expect

:21:47.:21:49.

theatres for the French and German elections. Thank you very much for

:21:50.:21:51.

that. News now of fresh problems

:21:52.:21:54.

for the independent Newsnight has learned

:21:55.:21:55.

that the leaders of one of the main groups representing survivors

:21:56.:21:59.

of alleged abuse - a group who have been designated

:22:00.:22:01.

official participant status by the inquiry - have lost

:22:02.:22:03.

faith in it and will recommend to their members

:22:04.:22:06.

that the group abandon it. We'll speak to the group's

:22:07.:22:09.

leader in a moment. It was over one month ago that we

:22:10.:22:23.

got the unexpected news that Justice Lyle Gothard would quit from this

:22:24.:22:31.

enquiry, the third share in fractionally over 90 years since it

:22:32.:22:35.

was set up. In terms of why she quit, we had a brief obligation of

:22:36.:22:40.

correspondence had been hurt and the new Home Secretary and told us

:22:41.:22:44.

little and that prompted the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee

:22:45.:22:52.

Keith Vaz to call just as Goddard. And we got that committee today.

:22:53.:22:59.

Minus Keith Vaz for reasons that have been well documented and also

:23:00.:23:03.

minus Justice Goddard, who chose to submit written evidence to the

:23:04.:23:06.

committee and in that evidence there was something that is causing

:23:07.:23:10.

problems. She complained that she was unable to select her own staff

:23:11.:23:16.

for the enquiry, her own secretary it and she accused the Home Office

:23:17.:23:21.

of fixing the way staff was elected so the secretary at was stuffed full

:23:22.:23:26.

of Home Office civil servants and she said they were bureaucratic in

:23:27.:23:32.

their approach but it is not that I position that is a problem for the

:23:33.:23:35.

survivors. Learn about to hear from one of the main survivors groups,

:23:36.:23:41.

who represents over 600 children who were in Lambeth's care homes in the

:23:42.:23:45.

latter part of the 20th century and many say they burn abused and the

:23:46.:23:49.

problem here is this is the Home Office, one of the institutions who

:23:50.:23:54.

stand accused of failing children in the past. Lambert is one of 13

:23:55.:24:00.

strands in this enquiry, it is one of the key once that has been

:24:01.:24:04.

started on, one of the ones that will report back first when this

:24:05.:24:08.

enquiry does finally report stop it was raised in the Select Committee

:24:09.:24:12.

today by Chukka Umunna, the Labour MP who represents the constituency

:24:13.:24:17.

in Lambeth and this issue of Home Office staff essentially having a

:24:18.:24:19.

big role in the enquiry when the Home Office is one of the

:24:20.:24:23.

institutions who stand accused. Amber Rudd said that Justice Goddard

:24:24.:24:28.

was mistaken and she had been free to pick her own staff. Why does this

:24:29.:24:33.

matter? There is an argument to be made that it does not matter, if

:24:34.:24:37.

survivor groups want to lose faith, and they don't want to be part of

:24:38.:24:41.

the enquiry, that is their business and the enquiry carries on but the

:24:42.:24:45.

reality is that firstly they might have important information to impart

:24:46.:24:49.

and it is also important for the enquiry to be seen to be credible,

:24:50.:24:52.

to have the support and the belief of those who were abused and it is

:24:53.:24:58.

also worth saying that this enquiry is under flak from all sides, many

:24:59.:25:04.

say the scope is far too big and it should be scaled back, something

:25:05.:25:08.

Amber Rudd said she did not think should happen. And you have that

:25:09.:25:12.

criticism and also the survivors. Thank you.

:25:13.:25:14.

Well, Raymond Stevenson, representive of the Shirley Oaks

:25:15.:25:15.

What is your sense, your concerns? We had concerned six months ago when

:25:16.:25:28.

we met with the enquiry team and a first question I asked was how many

:25:29.:25:32.

people weren't for the Home Office and we always knew during the

:25:33.:25:36.

investigation that they were implicated in what took place at

:25:37.:25:39.

Shirley Oaks and a failure to intervene so to read the document

:25:40.:25:43.

today from Justice Goddard and read her reasons for being concerned

:25:44.:25:52.

matching the reasons we expressed a while ago is very concerning. Do you

:25:53.:25:56.

really not believe that Home Office staff members today, all these years

:25:57.:26:02.

later, cannot be impartial? We're not going to take that risk. Some of

:26:03.:26:07.

our members have been through investigations before which had Home

:26:08.:26:13.

Office members and staff as part of that and we have been through that

:26:14.:26:16.

so this is about the third investigation Lambeth has been

:26:17.:26:19.

through so what we wanted from this was followed to be truly independent

:26:20.:26:23.

and we were sold the theory that it would be. If Justice Goddard is

:26:24.:26:27.

concerned, we are definitely concerned. There is another issue-

:26:28.:26:33.

the chair has spent 30 years in the social service department, that

:26:34.:26:36.

would have been another condition for us because we are accusing the

:26:37.:26:39.

social services of also being part of this so there has been a sea

:26:40.:26:45.

change in non-2 weeks, and you have Justice Goddard highlighting these

:26:46.:26:47.

concerns that we expressed. What would you recommend to your members?

:26:48.:26:55.

At this moment in time, we recommend that we pull out. We have given the

:26:56.:26:59.

enquiry an opportunity to meet us, we contacted them non-2 weeks ago

:27:00.:27:02.

and we're still waiting for that meeting. We don't know how they will

:27:03.:27:09.

jump through the hurdles of having two people compromised, the Home

:27:10.:27:13.

Office is compromised if they are as involved as it seems they are. If

:27:14.:27:18.

you pull out and others follow, this could be the beginning of the end of

:27:19.:27:24.

the whole thing? We are lucky, we set out to investigate this

:27:25.:27:27.

ourselves and we will produce our own report on the first 100 pages

:27:28.:27:33.

will be presented next week. It is a damning indictment of what took

:27:34.:27:42.

place in Lambeth and also it is a macro of what took place around the

:27:43.:27:46.

country. We wanted to join this enquiry to share our report with

:27:47.:27:50.

them and that they are unable to receive this in an independent we

:27:51.:27:54.

were definitely going to publish it ourselves. Thank you very much for

:27:55.:27:55.

coming in. When disgraced boss Mike Ashley

:27:56.:27:58.

turned up at an inspection of a Sports Direct factory this

:27:59.:28:01.

morning, they frisked him and found Nothing illegal

:28:02.:28:04.

about that, of course. Yet somehow we're conditioned

:28:05.:28:06.

to find raw, ready cash a sign of the underhand these days -

:28:07.:28:09.

or at least something slightly And now there are esteemed voices

:28:10.:28:11.

ready to make the argument A leading US economist suggests that

:28:12.:28:15.

central banks should phase out paper Lewis Goodall tries

:28:16.:28:23.

to figure it out. # Money, money, money,

:28:24.:28:30.

money, money #. How many of us would pay

:28:31.:28:36.

for something with 50s? And even if we did, how many

:28:37.:28:39.

shopkeepers would accept them? This is at the heart of Harvard

:28:40.:28:44.

economist Ken Rogoff's thesis. That high denomination banknotes -

:28:45.:28:48.

?50 notes or $50 bills in the US - are used for organised crime,

:28:49.:28:53.

tax evasion and even spur If you see a briefcase of $100

:28:54.:28:56.

bills, you know where it is from, as any fan of Breaking Bad

:28:57.:29:02.

will tell you. Rogoff believes that abolishing

:29:03.:29:04.

high-value cash notes would allow central banks to stimulate

:29:05.:29:16.

the economy by making negative At the moment, if negative rates

:29:17.:29:18.

are in place, ie banks are charging you to deposit money,

:29:19.:29:24.

you may as well hold them in cash. By abolishing high-value notes,

:29:25.:29:27.

you remove that option and make But from gold coins to the gold

:29:28.:29:31.

standard - money has existed in high-value form

:29:32.:29:37.

since the ancient world. How prepared would people be

:29:38.:29:40.

to give up that right? Ask the Weimar Republic

:29:41.:29:43.

or Harold Wilson - politicians have oft come unstuck

:29:44.:29:45.

messing with our money. In this uncertain financial world,

:29:46.:29:48.

it might take a brave one to ask us It doesn't mean, of course,

:29:49.:29:51.

that the pound here in Britain, in your pocket or purse

:29:52.:29:56.

or in your bag, has been devalued. Ken Rogoff joins us now

:29:57.:30:04.

from Boston and Fran Boait - the Executive director

:30:05.:30:07.

of Positive Money - is with me now. Thank you for joining us. Ken

:30:08.:30:22.

Rogoff, how do you see this working? To be clear, I am in favour of less

:30:23.:30:25.

cash, rather than being without cash. I think it would be eight

:30:26.:30:36.

mistake. It has convenience for small transactions. If you look

:30:37.:30:43.

around the world, countries are swimming in big bills that most

:30:44.:30:46.

people never see. There was a joke that the 500 euros note, everyone

:30:47.:30:54.

knew about it but no one had seen one. We have 36 $100 bills for every

:30:55.:31:05.

man woman and child in America, on what the same in the Eurozone and

:31:06.:31:09.

Japan. Central banks have been surveyed and they say, people love

:31:10.:31:17.

our currency. If we are swimming in cash we never use and most of us

:31:18.:31:23.

never see, what is the point? In the UK, cash is only 3% of all the money

:31:24.:31:28.

that we use. The remaining 97% is digital that we use with our debit

:31:29.:31:34.

cards. It is an interesting idea to move towards less cash in society,

:31:35.:31:38.

but a big part of the debate which isn't being discussed is, what is

:31:39.:31:42.

that cash replaced with? The electronic money we use through

:31:43.:31:46.

debit cards is not the electronic version of cash. They are different

:31:47.:31:51.

because of the institutions that create them. Is that not the point,

:31:52.:31:56.

that suddenly you have the privatisation of money? If I have

:31:57.:32:00.

wads of cash, I can keep it under the bed whatever I want, but as soon

:32:01.:32:05.

as it belongs in a digital structure like a bank or in society, they can

:32:06.:32:11.

do with that what they want. The UK is in a different position than the

:32:12.:32:16.

United States and Europe. You don't have... We have the $100 bill, euro

:32:17.:32:25.

has the 500 euros bill. Singapore has a 10,000 note. The UK is in a

:32:26.:32:31.

different position. That said, if you look at actual sales and retail

:32:32.:32:35.

shops, they are not using so much these large notes. But if you look

:32:36.:32:46.

at when they seized drug... Big busts and so on, they find them a

:32:47.:32:52.

lot. Cash is declining in the legal economy and rising in the

:32:53.:32:56.

underground economy. It is an ideal striking a balance. And there is

:32:57.:33:00.

this seediness that is associated with wads of cash. If you open a

:33:01.:33:04.

suitcase and it has cash, you don't think what a wonderful surprise. You

:33:05.:33:08.

think of what on earth has gone on here? There is that connotation. I

:33:09.:33:15.

am not denying that there are issues of tax evasion, and I'm not denying

:33:16.:33:19.

that abolishing big notes could help with that. But it throws a bigger

:33:20.:33:23.

questions, such as, what is money for? How do we design a system that

:33:24.:33:27.

works were people? I think if we're going to worry about tax issues, the

:33:28.:33:32.

seediness of big suitcases full of money, the biggest tax justice

:33:33.:33:40.

issues are around corporate tax avoidance. I don't think they are

:33:41.:33:46.

bigger quantitatively. What about the idea that money is a very public

:33:47.:33:52.

currency, for want of a better word? As soon as it is digital, you lose

:33:53.:33:57.

that. I'm not getting rid of smaller notes that most people use. It's

:33:58.:34:02.

perfectly possible, and I discuss it in my book, for the Government to

:34:03.:34:06.

provide its own electronic currency at a subsidised rate. In the UK,

:34:07.:34:15.

this has been long considered, but I thought about giving low income

:34:16.:34:23.

people debit cards. We need to think about central banks issuing digital

:34:24.:34:26.

cash. There is more and more research to say that they want to

:34:27.:34:29.

move in this the Wrexham. At the same time, we need to look at the

:34:30.:34:34.

actual system and how it works, and the structure that underpins it. It

:34:35.:34:41.

is not necessarily that simple to move to an economy that gets rid of

:34:42.:34:47.

cash and replaces it with a digital currency completely. But I think I

:34:48.:34:51.

would agree that we need to move in that direction, and we need to think

:34:52.:34:55.

about money being a public good and how we make it work for society. Do

:34:56.:34:58.

you think there is ever a danger, when you start to play around with

:34:59.:35:03.

money in this way, that you destroy the value of it? I don't think so,

:35:04.:35:09.

but I look at it very carefully in the book. There are all sorts of

:35:10.:35:14.

subtle issues about, if you get rid of too many notes, can the central

:35:15.:35:17.

bank still control the currency? If currency were all electronic, it

:35:18.:35:24.

looks different from Treasury bills and it is difficult to look at

:35:25.:35:28.

deposits. It has to be done slowly. You don't know what is going to

:35:29.:35:32.

happen. I am looking at ten, 20 years, and once you get going, I

:35:33.:35:36.

think it is important to include financial inclusion. Last word.

:35:37.:35:42.

Negative interest rates are bad idea. There are better ways to

:35:43.:35:47.

stimulate and boost demand. I couldn't disagree more! Thank you

:35:48.:35:50.

both very much. Alongside Watt, Faraday

:35:51.:35:52.

and Stevenson, the launch of an identical, expensive

:35:53.:35:53.

new rectangle that is missing a phone jack probably

:35:54.:35:55.

won't warrant its own set of commemorative stamps

:35:56.:35:58.

in years to come. Which heralds the question

:35:59.:36:00.

of the night. If the brand new iPhone 7

:36:01.:36:02.

is the best our leading inventors can do to excite us,

:36:03.:36:05.

have we reached the high Or does the absentee phone jack

:36:06.:36:07.

signify greatness to come? Ladies and gentlemen,

:36:08.:36:14.

our presentation will begin shortly. So, how does the CEO of the world's

:36:15.:36:20.

most valuable company begin his big

:36:21.:36:23.

product launch of the year? # I did it all #.

:36:24.:36:35.

. You get the sense there is a bit

:36:36.:36:38.

more sizzle than sausage

:36:39.:36:43.

with Apple at the moment. It's the best iPhone

:36:44.:36:45.

that we have ever created. Yes, there were some neat

:36:46.:36:47.

new features but nothing to rival the startling

:36:48.:36:49.

innovation of the Jobs era. At some point the new

:36:50.:36:54.

computers will end up collectors like Max Smith,

:36:55.:36:56.

a repair shop in East London. But some economists believe

:36:57.:37:02.

that we are now at the end of this period

:37:03.:37:04.

of extraordinary technological That all the big changes that have

:37:05.:37:06.

transformed our societies The challenge for the future

:37:07.:37:11.

is how do we satisfy the wants and needs

:37:12.:37:16.

of more and more people

:37:17.:37:17.

with minimal economic growth? Economist Robert Gordon created this

:37:18.:37:22.

graph showing economic growth in the leading

:37:23.:37:26.

industrial nation - that was first There has been a blip,

:37:27.:37:29.

he says, over the past 100 years from innovations like

:37:30.:37:36.

the steam locomotive, the telegraph But the trend, he says,

:37:37.:37:38.

is very much now downwards. The problem we face is that

:37:39.:37:42.

all these great inventions, we have

:37:43.:37:46.

to match them in the future. And my prediction that we're not

:37:47.:37:57.

going to match them brings us down from the original 2% growth down to

:37:58.:38:03.

0.2%, the fanciful curve that I drew you at the beginning. The theory is

:38:04.:38:10.

that most of the huge advantages of organisation, allegation, sanitation

:38:11.:38:12.

and computing have already been raped. What is left is marginal,

:38:13.:38:18.

incremental evolution, not revolution. According to other

:38:19.:38:21.

academics, this pessimism couldn't be more unwarranted. I think the

:38:22.:38:26.

really important age of innovation is still ahead of us. We have

:38:27.:38:31.

innovated a lot in terms of gaining control of the world outside, but we

:38:32.:38:35.

haven't really began in terms of changing the world inside us, just

:38:36.:38:41.

as in the Bible God has the ability to create animals and plants and

:38:42.:38:46.

humans are according to his wishes, Sylvie are now gaining with the help

:38:47.:38:51.

of biotechnology and artificial intelligence is the ability to start

:38:52.:38:55.

engineering and manufacturing living beings. I think that in the next

:38:56.:39:00.

century, in the 21st-century, the main products of the human economy

:39:01.:39:05.

will not be textiles and food and iPhones, they will be bodies, brains

:39:06.:39:11.

and minds. Some economists believe that what is missing today are

:39:12.:39:15.

engaged state institutions to set the direction for innovation. Beef

:39:16.:39:20.

fame Apollo man on the and programme from Nasa actually ended up over

:39:21.:39:26.

time, and that is another thing, allowing that time to take place,

:39:27.:39:34.

ended up producing most of the technology that is in the iPhone.

:39:35.:39:40.

What makes the smart -- iPhone smart not stupid are things like GPS,

:39:41.:39:46.

voice-activated systems, as well as the touch-screen display. All those

:39:47.:39:51.

were publicly financed. Without some idea of the big goals for

:39:52.:39:56.

innovation, perhaps we end up pursuing the short-term, marginal

:39:57.:40:00.

and trivial. And producing a pristine, Mira- like surface. There

:40:01.:40:10.

is a parallel with the hierarchy of needs. Our society progresses, we go

:40:11.:40:18.

for things like focusing on survival, to establishing the social

:40:19.:40:23.

order, to self actualisation. We become more obsessed with ourselves,

:40:24.:40:26.

and that is what innovators are responding to. It may be, then, that

:40:27.:40:33.

the future will contain innovation, but not innovation that leads to

:40:34.:40:38.

economic growth or makes the growing global population more prosperous,

:40:39.:40:41.

and that truly is a challenge for the innovators.

:40:42.:40:47.

And that was it from David Grossman. Almost time to go, but one story to

:40:48.:40:52.

bring you on the front of the Times. MPs will be leaving Parliament in a

:40:53.:40:57.

?4 billion restoration plan. It is the first time since 1941. Theresa

:40:58.:41:03.

May taking action to recommend that they decamp, and the MPs will go.

:41:04.:41:12.

The House of Lords will move to the Queen Elizabeth conference centre.

:41:13.:41:17.

That's it for tonight. Tomorrow will be a very special day

:41:18.:41:19.

in the hearts of true sci-fi fans - it's the 50th anniversary

:41:20.:41:23.

of the first ever screening And just in case you think

:41:24.:41:25.

it was just a TV show, ask the staff at Nasa

:41:26.:41:30.

or the Jet Propulsion Laboratory Ask any Western scientist

:41:31.:41:32.

or engineer involved The largest federation of

:41:33.:41:35.

scientists, engineers and explorers. So, from all of us here

:41:36.:41:42.

at Nasa headquarters...

:41:43.:41:45.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.

Is the report into Saudi arms sales being whitewashed? Will grammar schools return? Plus, a look at new developments in the child abuse inquiry, going cashless, and Iphones and innovation.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS