07/09/2016 Newsnight


07/09/2016

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If Saudi Arabia is using British weapons to bomb Yemen,should we be

:00:00.:00:08.

Newsnight learns of turmoil at the heart of the establishment

:00:09.:00:12.

as senior MPs try to water down the draft report

:00:13.:00:15.

We bring you what appears to be the anatomy of a whitewash.

:00:16.:00:21.

I've got documents that show how some MPs want to remove references

:00:22.:00:25.

to violations of international law and calls for a suspenison of arms

:00:26.:00:28.

sales from an influential Parliamentary report.

:00:29.:00:30.

Hilary Benn and a former general will help us unpick it.

:00:31.:00:36.

Time for school for the boys of Bristol Grammar School.

:00:37.:00:48.

And will she ever convince anyone else?

:00:49.:00:54.

Nowadays, grammar schools are very much occupied by kids from affluent

:00:55.:00:56.

backgrounds and very few low-income, working-class kids that we all care

:00:57.:00:59.

about have the opportunity of getting into grammar schools.

:01:00.:01:03.

We're going to make some history together today.

:01:04.:01:09.

It's the best iPhone that we have ever created.

:01:10.:01:19.

Is innovation dead, or has it just moved to Asia?

:01:20.:01:32.

Do weapons sold to Saudi Arabia by Britain break

:01:33.:01:39.

international humanitarian law with their use in Yemen, and if so,

:01:40.:01:41.

Newsnight has learnt of extraordinary divisions betwen

:01:42.:01:49.

Newsnight has learnt of extraordinary divisions between

:01:50.:01:50.

the legislators trying to answer that exact question.

:01:51.:01:52.

Last night, this programme saw evidence that the Committees

:01:53.:01:54.

on Arms Export Controls was recommending Britain

:01:55.:01:56.

stop selling weapons to Saudi for use in Yemen,

:01:57.:01:58.

in a war where many civilians have been bombed.

:01:59.:02:01.

But tonight, further leaks show certain MPs trying to water

:02:02.:02:05.

down the draft report, with some rowing back altogether.

:02:06.:02:07.

The committee met again earlier this evening to try to hammer

:02:08.:02:10.

Gabriel Gatehouse has been following the story.

:02:11.:02:12.

How did it end? Late. We don't know whether it ended in agreement,

:02:13.:02:25.

because the members are sworn to secrecy and won't tell us. Given the

:02:26.:02:31.

divisions, I very much doubt it. The draft report we saw yesterday

:02:32.:02:35.

basically said it was inevitable that weapons supplied by Britain

:02:36.:02:42.

were being used by the Saudis in the coalition in Yemen, in contravention

:02:43.:02:45.

of international humanitarian law, that's basically war crimes. It is a

:02:46.:02:50.

draft, and tonight, we've seen proposed amendments. We've got 11

:02:51.:02:55.

pages here in total. This is the kind of things that happens with

:02:56.:02:58.

these reports, people write it up and then amendments coming, but what

:02:59.:03:03.

is unusual is to get the insight into the process, especially on this

:03:04.:03:08.

most controversial of issues. Most of the amendments come from two MPs

:03:09.:03:14.

- Crispin Blunt and John Spellar. What we see, really, is a concerted

:03:15.:03:19.

effort to water down, or in some cases completely eliminate, the

:03:20.:03:26.

legality of the issue of Britain's arms sales. Let's look at the

:03:27.:03:29.

summary. Here is the original draft. It says there has been very serious

:03:30.:03:34.

evidence of violations of humanitarian and human rights law by

:03:35.:03:46.

the Saudi led coalition in Yemen, including the targeting of civilian

:03:47.:03:49.

areas and medical facilities will top both John Spellar and Crispin

:03:50.:03:54.

Blunt want the term allegations to be used. Crispin Blunt once

:03:55.:04:00.

references to civilian areas removed altogether. The draft goes on, we

:04:01.:04:05.

believe there must be an independent, United Nations led

:04:06.:04:10.

investigation of these violations, and we call upon the UK Government

:04:11.:04:16.

to support and press for such an investigation. Crispin Blunt

:04:17.:04:19.

slightly softened the language on this to refer to alleged violations

:04:20.:04:25.

by all parties to the conflict. John Spellar wants the reference to an

:04:26.:04:28.

independent investigation removed altogether. Both Blunt and Spellar

:04:29.:04:36.

take exception to the following sentence:

:04:37.:04:49.

They both want that changed to a simple allegation. Then comes the

:04:50.:04:58.

recommendation. We therefore recommend, the draft says, that Her

:04:59.:05:02.

Majesty's Government suspend sales of arms that could be used in Yemen

:05:03.:05:08.

to Saudi Arabia until the independent UN led investigation has

:05:09.:05:12.

come to its conclusions. Crispin Blunt replaces that recommendation

:05:13.:05:15.

with a reference to a legal case that will come before the High Court

:05:16.:05:20.

next year. John Spellar removes it altogether. What might you mentioned

:05:21.:05:26.

Crispin Blunt and John Spellar, talk us through who they are. Crispin

:05:27.:05:31.

Blunt is Conservative MP for Reigate in Surrey, chair of the influential

:05:32.:05:35.

foreign affairs select committee. John Spellar is a former Armed

:05:36.:05:45.

Forces Minister. They are both verbally senior MPs and both have

:05:46.:05:52.

been members of the pro-Saudi or poly parter mail -- Parliamentary

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group. If you look at MPs' interest, you will see that Crispin Blunt has

:06:00.:06:09.

connections with a military company. He said the work was unrelated to

:06:10.:06:14.

Saudi Arabia. John Spellar has a record of defending arms sales to

:06:15.:06:18.

Saudi Arabia on the basis that it creates British jobs. None of this

:06:19.:06:24.

is unusual, or improper, but it gives us a sense of where people

:06:25.:06:29.

stand. What might you have an idea of the extent of British arms sales

:06:30.:06:37.

to Saudi Arabia. About a third of our arms exports go to Saudi Arabia.

:06:38.:06:43.

What is startling is the extent to which it has increased since the

:06:44.:06:47.

campaign in Yemen. According to the draft report, the UK sold more than

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?1.3 billion of arms to Saudi Arabia in the first 12 months of the war.

:06:55.:06:58.

To put it in context, that represents a 30 fold increase on the

:06:59.:07:05.

same period of the previous year. Any response tonight from the

:07:06.:07:09.

Government? The Foreign Office, who did not want to come on the

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programme, sent us a statement, saying what they usually say, that

:07:13.:07:18.

they operate one of the most robust arms export control regimes in the

:07:19.:07:20.

world and that they are satisfied that are in line with international

:07:21.:07:25.

obligations. The problem is that this report in its current form

:07:26.:07:27.

suggests that that is not credible. Well, last night, the Saudi Foreign

:07:28.:07:32.

Minister entered the debate, saying it was in Britain's interest

:07:33.:07:34.

to supply Saudi with arms for Yemen to help them fight

:07:35.:07:37.

Iran-backed rebel groups there, which would increase

:07:38.:07:39.

the risk of terrorism Certainly, British-Saudi

:07:40.:07:41.

relations are complicated - their tentacles go beyond economics

:07:42.:07:46.

to security and diplomacy and So, can we afford to upset

:07:47.:07:48.

Saudi Arabia on the question of arms sales, or does

:07:49.:07:52.

the question betray cowardice? Joining me now, Simon Mayall,

:07:53.:07:55.

former Lieutenant General and former senior British military advisor

:07:56.:07:57.

on the Middle East. And Hilary Benn, former

:07:58.:08:00.

Shadow Foreign Secretary. Very nice to have you both here.

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Hilary Benn, you wanted the Government to be investigated over

:08:12.:08:14.

this. From what is coming up tonight, what do you make of it?

:08:15.:08:18.

Where are we? It remains to be seen what report the committee on arms

:08:19.:08:26.

export controls finally decides. I've been calling for some months

:08:27.:08:30.

for arms sales to be suspended because there have been numerous

:08:31.:08:38.

reports of breaches of international humanitarian law by both sides. And

:08:39.:08:41.

I think it is important to emphasise that. The rebels and the Saudi

:08:42.:08:47.

coalition. We have legislation, and crazed TV and to -- and criterion to

:08:48.:08:53.

says we should not be exporting if there is a clear risk of serious

:08:54.:08:58.

violations. For me, the issue is, are we upholding the law that

:08:59.:09:02.

Parliament has passed? It seems extraordinary to ignore that, if all

:09:03.:09:07.

the signs are that we are breaking humanitarian law. I don't think that

:09:08.:09:13.

has been proven yet. What Gabriel was indicating was the usual, dare I

:09:14.:09:19.

say, conflicting interests within these committees. There are those,

:09:20.:09:23.

including those who gave evidence. I gave evidence to a committee. There

:09:24.:09:28.

are those who are viscerally against the whole of the defence industry

:09:29.:09:33.

and defence sales. There are people on it who are viscerally against the

:09:34.:09:37.

Saudi Government for a number of reasons. There are people who are

:09:38.:09:42.

deeply, I have to say, misinformed about the realities of the situation

:09:43.:09:48.

in Yemen. And there are those who really are not being really sensible

:09:49.:09:57.

about the threats. Is Hilary Benn one of those? He might have

:09:58.:10:01.

perfectly respectable concerns about issues to do with Saudi Arabia.

:10:02.:10:07.

There is a big regional issue here about who is really responsible when

:10:08.:10:13.

50,000 rebels are able to hold in hock 27 million people in Yemen. And

:10:14.:10:20.

we know where the finger points, I'm afraid, and it is to Iran, who are

:10:21.:10:25.

interfering across the region. Would you accept that Saudi Arabia becomes

:10:26.:10:30.

a lightning rod for this type of criticism? There is perhaps a good

:10:31.:10:36.

taste amongst a lot of the British public over our relations to Saudi.

:10:37.:10:42.

It is an important one. The security cooperation we have with them,

:10:43.:10:45.

because we face a common threat, is important. With people you have a

:10:46.:10:50.

long-standing relationship with, you have to be honest. Simon is right

:10:51.:10:57.

that the rebellion, there is a humanitarian catastrophe in Yemen,

:10:58.:11:02.

and the Saudi led coalition is supported by a UN resolution, but

:11:03.:11:06.

that is about how that campaign is conducted. Given that we have

:11:07.:11:11.

received repeated reports of civilians being hit and affected,

:11:12.:11:15.

and that's why international humanitarian law is so important.

:11:16.:11:19.

The way to resolve the argument, Emily, that has been going on is to

:11:20.:11:25.

have an independent, international investigation. Which we know is not

:11:26.:11:28.

going on because Saudi wants to conducted itself. You are happy for

:11:29.:11:36.

Saudi to conduct its own... 14 nations are in the joint assessment

:11:37.:11:43.

team. What you make of the UN report calling the Saudi operation against

:11:44.:11:50.

civilians widespread and systematic? What would it take to make you

:11:51.:11:54.

uncomfortable with this situation? I have to say, the nature of the

:11:55.:12:00.

operation is extremely complex. But you didn't think it should be

:12:01.:12:04.

investigated. I don't think we have enough weight of evidence, I'm

:12:05.:12:09.

afraid, that tells us we should be suspending one of the most important

:12:10.:12:13.

aspects of our relationship with a key ally in the Gulf, who is

:12:14.:12:18.

involved in a major aspect of countering so-called Islamic State.

:12:19.:12:25.

It is about sceptre -- separatism and security. And whatever they do

:12:26.:12:29.

in Yemen, perhaps we should look farther afield unthinkably risks to

:12:30.:12:34.

Britain. I don't think we should be doing that. The UK Government has

:12:35.:12:38.

showed itself incapable of doing its job. The first part of this year...

:12:39.:12:43.

It is not just the Government, it is people like John Spellar on your

:12:44.:12:48.

site. It has not applied its own legislation and for a long time has

:12:49.:12:51.

said, we've made an assessment and we don't think there are breaches of

:12:52.:12:55.

international humanitarian law. They said that to me as Gabriel was

:12:56.:13:00.

reporting on this programme. Then on the last day of the Parliamentary

:13:01.:13:03.

session, they said, that is not quite right, we have made an

:13:04.:13:07.

assessment. And then on Monday, the Foreign Secretary said, when it

:13:08.:13:13.

comes to this question, are there serious violations? He said, based

:13:14.:13:16.

on the information we have, we don't think that test has been met. We

:13:17.:13:20.

don't know what assessment has been done. In fairness to Saudi Arabia, I

:13:21.:13:26.

don't think it is fair to axe -- expect them to do it in a way that

:13:27.:13:30.

will command confidence. Should we pause are selling of arms and still

:13:31.:13:37.

expect them to help out on all the things Simon was talking about?

:13:38.:13:43.

Would they still do that? In the context of our failure to tackle

:13:44.:13:49.

Assad and our Sunni Muslim allies in the Gulf when we did a nuclear deal

:13:50.:13:53.

with Iran, in the context of not supporting Bahrain, this would be

:13:54.:14:01.

yet another blow to any sense of the Americans and ourselves being

:14:02.:14:04.

reliable allies. So we shut our eyes? We engage, and if you don't

:14:05.:14:10.

wish to be engaged, and they feel deeply insecure at the moment, they

:14:11.:14:15.

will go to people who could not care less about humanitarian law, and

:14:16.:14:19.

that is the Russians, the Chinese and the Iranians. Moral relativism

:14:20.:14:24.

is a dodgy place to be. If we don't sell them arms, the Russians will,

:14:25.:14:27.

and that will be worse. That is a weird place to come from. The report

:14:28.:14:32.

shows that there has not been clear-cut evidence of breaches. That

:14:33.:14:40.

is precisely the argument for having an independent international

:14:41.:14:42.

investigation. The sooner that can be done and we can answer the

:14:43.:14:46.

question about breaches of humanitarian law, we can then take

:14:47.:14:51.

the appropriate action. It is our legislation. The last Labour

:14:52.:14:54.

Government put it on the statute book. It is important to uphold it,

:14:55.:14:59.

including in conversation with our friends and partners. That

:15:00.:15:03.

relationship with Saudi Arabia is important, even though we have

:15:04.:15:06.

criticisms on their record on human rights and the death penalty, which

:15:07.:15:10.

I oppose. Thank you both for coming in.

:15:11.:15:12.

So grammar schools are back in the headlines this evening.

:15:13.:15:15.

After yesterday's accidental ministerial leak reinforced

:15:16.:15:16.

suspicions that they are back on the Government agenda,

:15:17.:15:18.

the Prime Minister was quizzed on the topic earlier

:15:19.:15:20.

today by backbenchers, many of whom would be happy

:15:21.:15:23.

Nick Watt's here and has the latest.

:15:24.:15:29.

Take us through the meeting. The new Prime Minister is more than a few

:15:30.:15:35.

words but she faced into the crumbling dry and the Conservative

:15:36.:15:39.

party by saying that she wants to move ahead with their plans to

:15:40.:15:42.

expand the grammar school system in England and she went to that meeting

:15:43.:15:47.

and said they would be an element of selection but then said, we already

:15:48.:15:52.

have selection in our system, selection by house price. And she

:15:53.:15:57.

would like to do with that, focusing reforms on disadvantaged children

:15:58.:16:01.

and one idea doing the rounds is you could say that grammar schools would

:16:02.:16:05.

have to give 50 presented the places to the poorest children, those are

:16:06.:16:09.

the ones on Free School meals. We thought this was an issue that has

:16:10.:16:14.

bedevilled English politics for the last 40 years so we thought we would

:16:15.:16:18.

take a look at the dilemmas facing Theresa May.

:16:19.:16:20.

It is a line no political leader has been able to cross in four decades.

:16:21.:16:25.

Now Theresa May wants to go where Margaret Thatcher dared not

:16:26.:16:31.

tread as Education Secretary and as Prime Minister.

:16:32.:16:35.

It goes right to the core of what I believe as a Conservative.

:16:36.:16:44.

That we should have the opportunity to progress in life,

:16:45.:16:48.

that where we end up in life should not be dictated by where we start.

:16:49.:16:51.

It does seem to me absurd that if parents and communities

:16:52.:16:56.

want something similar, they should be barred

:16:57.:16:58.

But grammar schools are a toxic issue and there are Tories

:16:59.:17:09.

who agree with Labour, who say they actually fail

:17:10.:17:12.

The evidence is that even if, historically, grammar schools did

:17:13.:17:21.

enable kids from very poor backgrounds to get

:17:22.:17:25.

on and have an opportunity, nowadays grammar schools are very

:17:26.:17:31.

much occupied by kids from affluent backgrounds and very few low income

:17:32.:17:34.

working class kids that we all care about have the opportunity

:17:35.:17:37.

of getting into grammar schools and that is the situation in Kent,

:17:38.:17:40.

it is the situation across the country and the outgoing

:17:41.:17:42.

Chief Inspector of Schools made that point very powerfully the other day.

:17:43.:17:46.

That is the evidence he sees as well.

:17:47.:17:48.

Theresa May believes the reforms lie at the heart of her vision

:17:49.:17:52.

of creating a country that works for everyone and not

:17:53.:17:54.

But the Prime Minister knows that she needs to move with care

:17:55.:18:00.

because there are doubts in her party right up

:18:01.:18:06.

to Education Secretary, Justine Greening, who is adopting,

:18:07.:18:08.

in the words of one minister, a sinuous approach on this.

:18:09.:18:11.

I have been told the reforms will be introduced incrementally,

:18:12.:18:14.

with no wholesale change, in line with the thinking

:18:15.:18:20.

of the brains behind the idea - her joint Chief of

:18:21.:18:23.

Amid signs of unease amongst some of the Tory modernisers sacked

:18:24.:18:45.

by the Prime Minister, Theresa May made clear to the 1922

:18:46.:18:48.

Committee this evening that she would move with caution.

:18:49.:18:56.

Graeme Brady, who resigned from the Tory front bench in 2007

:18:57.:18:59.

when David Cameron backed a speech by David Willetts rejecting a return

:19:00.:19:02.

I think the only concern that would arise is if there was any

:19:03.:19:08.

suggestion of a big top-down reorganisation being imposed

:19:09.:19:10.

on areas, whether they wanted it or not.

:19:11.:19:14.

I don't think anybody is talking about that.

:19:15.:19:16.

What we are looking at here, I hope, is a modest measure

:19:17.:19:19.

to provide more freedom, to provide more choice for parents

:19:20.:19:23.

and for communities and to free people up to have these kinds

:19:24.:19:27.

But Labour are confident they can block it.

:19:28.:19:32.

I think that this was not in the Conservative manifesto.

:19:33.:19:36.

Therefore, first of all, the House of Lords will not feel

:19:37.:19:39.

they are bound by the Parliament Act because it was not in the manifesto.

:19:40.:19:44.

There are many Conservative MPs who have doubts or are seriously

:19:45.:19:48.

opposed to this policy as well as many that support it.

:19:49.:19:54.

So I think that first of all, Theresa May will struggle to get

:19:55.:19:58.

this through the House of Commons and then she would struggle to get

:19:59.:20:01.

Theresa May believes she has found the elixir to reach out to

:20:02.:20:09.

Others think she has opened a can of worms.

:20:10.:20:18.

Theresa May was pressed again on her plans for Brexit today

:20:19.:20:20.

She managed to hold off the questions from MPs and insisted

:20:21.:20:25.

that she had no plans to "reveal our hand prematurely".

:20:26.:20:28.

But she's likely to come under more pressure tomorrow

:20:29.:20:30.

Nick is here with me now and has the details.

:20:31.:20:37.

What is happening? Tomorrow we will see the preparations for Britain's

:20:38.:20:46.

Brexit negotiations move from neutral into first gear, Theresa May

:20:47.:20:50.

will host the president of European Council for breakfast and it'll be

:20:51.:20:55.

their first meeting since becoming Prime Minister and has been a

:20:56.:20:59.

rotation in Brussels that Brussels has not triggered Article 50, the

:21:00.:21:02.

mechanism taking the side of the EU and friend Donald Tusk leaves he

:21:03.:21:07.

will have it clear in his mind that Britain will be triggering it and

:21:08.:21:11.

they will be triggering that in the New Year and from behind-the-scenes

:21:12.:21:16.

were getting an idea of the shape of how the UK sees those negotiations.

:21:17.:21:19.

One thing we are hearing is that senior ministers believe that

:21:20.:21:23.

Theresa May will concentrate on what are described as a few iconic

:21:24.:21:28.

issues, maybe only half a dozen, and what that is about is ensuring she

:21:29.:21:33.

manages to get the best deal for British goods and services and they

:21:34.:21:38.

say, 20 million other issues- pensions reform officials in the

:21:39.:21:42.

commission, we believe that to the officials. The other thing is the

:21:43.:21:46.

negotiations will be underweight in the New Year but they expect

:21:47.:21:49.

theatres for the French and German elections. Thank you very much for

:21:50.:21:51.

that. News now of fresh problems

:21:52.:21:54.

for the independent Newsnight has learned

:21:55.:21:55.

that the leaders of one of the main groups representing survivors

:21:56.:21:59.

of alleged abuse - a group who have been designated

:22:00.:22:01.

official participant status by the inquiry - have lost

:22:02.:22:03.

faith in it and will recommend to their members

:22:04.:22:06.

that the group abandon it. We'll speak to the group's

:22:07.:22:09.

leader in a moment. It was over one month ago that we

:22:10.:22:23.

got the unexpected news that Justice Lyle Gothard would quit from this

:22:24.:22:31.

enquiry, the third share in fractionally over 90 years since it

:22:32.:22:35.

was set up. In terms of why she quit, we had a brief obligation of

:22:36.:22:40.

correspondence had been hurt and the new Home Secretary and told us

:22:41.:22:44.

little and that prompted the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee

:22:45.:22:52.

Keith Vaz to call just as Goddard. And we got that committee today.

:22:53.:22:59.

Minus Keith Vaz for reasons that have been well documented and also

:23:00.:23:03.

minus Justice Goddard, who chose to submit written evidence to the

:23:04.:23:06.

committee and in that evidence there was something that is causing

:23:07.:23:10.

problems. She complained that she was unable to select her own staff

:23:11.:23:16.

for the enquiry, her own secretary it and she accused the Home Office

:23:17.:23:21.

of fixing the way staff was elected so the secretary at was stuffed full

:23:22.:23:26.

of Home Office civil servants and she said they were bureaucratic in

:23:27.:23:32.

their approach but it is not that I position that is a problem for the

:23:33.:23:35.

survivors. Learn about to hear from one of the main survivors groups,

:23:36.:23:41.

who represents over 600 children who were in Lambeth's care homes in the

:23:42.:23:45.

latter part of the 20th century and many say they burn abused and the

:23:46.:23:49.

problem here is this is the Home Office, one of the institutions who

:23:50.:23:54.

stand accused of failing children in the past. Lambert is one of 13

:23:55.:24:00.

strands in this enquiry, it is one of the key once that has been

:24:01.:24:04.

started on, one of the ones that will report back first when this

:24:05.:24:08.

enquiry does finally report stop it was raised in the Select Committee

:24:09.:24:12.

today by Chukka Umunna, the Labour MP who represents the constituency

:24:13.:24:17.

in Lambeth and this issue of Home Office staff essentially having a

:24:18.:24:19.

big role in the enquiry when the Home Office is one of the

:24:20.:24:23.

institutions who stand accused. Amber Rudd said that Justice Goddard

:24:24.:24:28.

was mistaken and she had been free to pick her own staff. Why does this

:24:29.:24:33.

matter? There is an argument to be made that it does not matter, if

:24:34.:24:37.

survivor groups want to lose faith, and they don't want to be part of

:24:38.:24:41.

the enquiry, that is their business and the enquiry carries on but the

:24:42.:24:45.

reality is that firstly they might have important information to impart

:24:46.:24:49.

and it is also important for the enquiry to be seen to be credible,

:24:50.:24:52.

to have the support and the belief of those who were abused and it is

:24:53.:24:58.

also worth saying that this enquiry is under flak from all sides, many

:24:59.:25:04.

say the scope is far too big and it should be scaled back, something

:25:05.:25:08.

Amber Rudd said she did not think should happen. And you have that

:25:09.:25:12.

criticism and also the survivors. Thank you.

:25:13.:25:14.

Well, Raymond Stevenson, representive of the Shirley Oaks

:25:15.:25:15.

What is your sense, your concerns? We had concerned six months ago when

:25:16.:25:28.

we met with the enquiry team and a first question I asked was how many

:25:29.:25:32.

people weren't for the Home Office and we always knew during the

:25:33.:25:36.

investigation that they were implicated in what took place at

:25:37.:25:39.

Shirley Oaks and a failure to intervene so to read the document

:25:40.:25:43.

today from Justice Goddard and read her reasons for being concerned

:25:44.:25:52.

matching the reasons we expressed a while ago is very concerning. Do you

:25:53.:25:56.

really not believe that Home Office staff members today, all these years

:25:57.:26:02.

later, cannot be impartial? We're not going to take that risk. Some of

:26:03.:26:07.

our members have been through investigations before which had Home

:26:08.:26:13.

Office members and staff as part of that and we have been through that

:26:14.:26:16.

so this is about the third investigation Lambeth has been

:26:17.:26:19.

through so what we wanted from this was followed to be truly independent

:26:20.:26:23.

and we were sold the theory that it would be. If Justice Goddard is

:26:24.:26:27.

concerned, we are definitely concerned. There is another issue-

:26:28.:26:33.

the chair has spent 30 years in the social service department, that

:26:34.:26:36.

would have been another condition for us because we are accusing the

:26:37.:26:39.

social services of also being part of this so there has been a sea

:26:40.:26:45.

change in non-2 weeks, and you have Justice Goddard highlighting these

:26:46.:26:47.

concerns that we expressed. What would you recommend to your members?

:26:48.:26:55.

At this moment in time, we recommend that we pull out. We have given the

:26:56.:26:59.

enquiry an opportunity to meet us, we contacted them non-2 weeks ago

:27:00.:27:02.

and we're still waiting for that meeting. We don't know how they will

:27:03.:27:09.

jump through the hurdles of having two people compromised, the Home

:27:10.:27:13.

Office is compromised if they are as involved as it seems they are. If

:27:14.:27:18.

you pull out and others follow, this could be the beginning of the end of

:27:19.:27:24.

the whole thing? We are lucky, we set out to investigate this

:27:25.:27:27.

ourselves and we will produce our own report on the first 100 pages

:27:28.:27:33.

will be presented next week. It is a damning indictment of what took

:27:34.:27:42.

place in Lambeth and also it is a macro of what took place around the

:27:43.:27:46.

country. We wanted to join this enquiry to share our report with

:27:47.:27:50.

them and that they are unable to receive this in an independent we

:27:51.:27:54.

were definitely going to publish it ourselves. Thank you very much for

:27:55.:27:55.

coming in. When disgraced boss Mike Ashley

:27:56.:27:58.

turned up at an inspection of a Sports Direct factory this

:27:59.:28:01.

morning, they frisked him and found Nothing illegal

:28:02.:28:04.

about that, of course. Yet somehow we're conditioned

:28:05.:28:06.

to find raw, ready cash a sign of the underhand these days -

:28:07.:28:09.

or at least something slightly And now there are esteemed voices

:28:10.:28:11.

ready to make the argument A leading US economist suggests that

:28:12.:28:15.

central banks should phase out paper Lewis Goodall tries

:28:16.:28:23.

to figure it out. # Money, money, money,

:28:24.:28:30.

money, money #. How many of us would pay

:28:31.:28:36.

for something with 50s? And even if we did, how many

:28:37.:28:39.

shopkeepers would accept them? This is at the heart of Harvard

:28:40.:28:44.

economist Ken Rogoff's thesis. That high denomination banknotes -

:28:45.:28:48.

?50 notes or $50 bills in the US - are used for organised crime,

:28:49.:28:53.

tax evasion and even spur If you see a briefcase of $100

:28:54.:28:56.

bills, you know where it is from, as any fan of Breaking Bad

:28:57.:29:02.

will tell you. Rogoff believes that abolishing

:29:03.:29:04.

high-value cash notes would allow central banks to stimulate

:29:05.:29:16.

the economy by making negative At the moment, if negative rates

:29:17.:29:18.

are in place, ie banks are charging you to deposit money,

:29:19.:29:24.

you may as well hold them in cash. By abolishing high-value notes,

:29:25.:29:27.

you remove that option and make But from gold coins to the gold

:29:28.:29:31.

standard - money has existed in high-value form

:29:32.:29:37.

since the ancient world. How prepared would people be

:29:38.:29:40.

to give up that right? Ask the Weimar Republic

:29:41.:29:43.

or Harold Wilson - politicians have oft come unstuck

:29:44.:29:45.

messing with our money. In this uncertain financial world,

:29:46.:29:48.

it might take a brave one to ask us It doesn't mean, of course,

:29:49.:29:51.

that the pound here in Britain, in your pocket or purse

:29:52.:29:56.

or in your bag, has been devalued. Ken Rogoff joins us now

:29:57.:30:04.

from Boston and Fran Boait - the Executive director

:30:05.:30:07.

of Positive Money - is with me now. Thank you for joining us. Ken

:30:08.:30:22.

Rogoff, how do you see this working? To be clear, I am in favour of less

:30:23.:30:25.

cash, rather than being without cash. I think it would be eight

:30:26.:30:36.

mistake. It has convenience for small transactions. If you look

:30:37.:30:43.

around the world, countries are swimming in big bills that most

:30:44.:30:46.

people never see. There was a joke that the 500 euros note, everyone

:30:47.:30:54.

knew about it but no one had seen one. We have 36 $100 bills for every

:30:55.:31:05.

man woman and child in America, on what the same in the Eurozone and

:31:06.:31:09.

Japan. Central banks have been surveyed and they say, people love

:31:10.:31:17.

our currency. If we are swimming in cash we never use and most of us

:31:18.:31:23.

never see, what is the point? In the UK, cash is only 3% of all the money

:31:24.:31:28.

that we use. The remaining 97% is digital that we use with our debit

:31:29.:31:34.

cards. It is an interesting idea to move towards less cash in society,

:31:35.:31:38.

but a big part of the debate which isn't being discussed is, what is

:31:39.:31:42.

that cash replaced with? The electronic money we use through

:31:43.:31:46.

debit cards is not the electronic version of cash. They are different

:31:47.:31:51.

because of the institutions that create them. Is that not the point,

:31:52.:31:56.

that suddenly you have the privatisation of money? If I have

:31:57.:32:00.

wads of cash, I can keep it under the bed whatever I want, but as soon

:32:01.:32:05.

as it belongs in a digital structure like a bank or in society, they can

:32:06.:32:11.

do with that what they want. The UK is in a different position than the

:32:12.:32:16.

United States and Europe. You don't have... We have the $100 bill, euro

:32:17.:32:25.

has the 500 euros bill. Singapore has a 10,000 note. The UK is in a

:32:26.:32:31.

different position. That said, if you look at actual sales and retail

:32:32.:32:35.

shops, they are not using so much these large notes. But if you look

:32:36.:32:46.

at when they seized drug... Big busts and so on, they find them a

:32:47.:32:52.

lot. Cash is declining in the legal economy and rising in the

:32:53.:32:56.

underground economy. It is an ideal striking a balance. And there is

:32:57.:33:00.

this seediness that is associated with wads of cash. If you open a

:33:01.:33:04.

suitcase and it has cash, you don't think what a wonderful surprise. You

:33:05.:33:08.

think of what on earth has gone on here? There is that connotation. I

:33:09.:33:15.

am not denying that there are issues of tax evasion, and I'm not denying

:33:16.:33:19.

that abolishing big notes could help with that. But it throws a bigger

:33:20.:33:23.

questions, such as, what is money for? How do we design a system that

:33:24.:33:27.

works were people? I think if we're going to worry about tax issues, the

:33:28.:33:32.

seediness of big suitcases full of money, the biggest tax justice

:33:33.:33:40.

issues are around corporate tax avoidance. I don't think they are

:33:41.:33:46.

bigger quantitatively. What about the idea that money is a very public

:33:47.:33:52.

currency, for want of a better word? As soon as it is digital, you lose

:33:53.:33:57.

that. I'm not getting rid of smaller notes that most people use. It's

:33:58.:34:02.

perfectly possible, and I discuss it in my book, for the Government to

:34:03.:34:06.

provide its own electronic currency at a subsidised rate. In the UK,

:34:07.:34:15.

this has been long considered, but I thought about giving low income

:34:16.:34:23.

people debit cards. We need to think about central banks issuing digital

:34:24.:34:26.

cash. There is more and more research to say that they want to

:34:27.:34:29.

move in this the Wrexham. At the same time, we need to look at the

:34:30.:34:34.

actual system and how it works, and the structure that underpins it. It

:34:35.:34:41.

is not necessarily that simple to move to an economy that gets rid of

:34:42.:34:47.

cash and replaces it with a digital currency completely. But I think I

:34:48.:34:51.

would agree that we need to move in that direction, and we need to think

:34:52.:34:55.

about money being a public good and how we make it work for society. Do

:34:56.:34:58.

you think there is ever a danger, when you start to play around with

:34:59.:35:03.

money in this way, that you destroy the value of it? I don't think so,

:35:04.:35:09.

but I look at it very carefully in the book. There are all sorts of

:35:10.:35:14.

subtle issues about, if you get rid of too many notes, can the central

:35:15.:35:17.

bank still control the currency? If currency were all electronic, it

:35:18.:35:24.

looks different from Treasury bills and it is difficult to look at

:35:25.:35:28.

deposits. It has to be done slowly. You don't know what is going to

:35:29.:35:32.

happen. I am looking at ten, 20 years, and once you get going, I

:35:33.:35:36.

think it is important to include financial inclusion. Last word.

:35:37.:35:42.

Negative interest rates are bad idea. There are better ways to

:35:43.:35:47.

stimulate and boost demand. I couldn't disagree more! Thank you

:35:48.:35:50.

both very much. Alongside Watt, Faraday

:35:51.:35:52.

and Stevenson, the launch of an identical, expensive

:35:53.:35:53.

new rectangle that is missing a phone jack probably

:35:54.:35:55.

won't warrant its own set of commemorative stamps

:35:56.:35:58.

in years to come. Which heralds the question

:35:59.:36:00.

of the night. If the brand new iPhone 7

:36:01.:36:02.

is the best our leading inventors can do to excite us,

:36:03.:36:05.

have we reached the high Or does the absentee phone jack

:36:06.:36:07.

signify greatness to come? Ladies and gentlemen,

:36:08.:36:14.

our presentation will begin shortly. So, how does the CEO of the world's

:36:15.:36:20.

most valuable company begin his big

:36:21.:36:23.

product launch of the year? # I did it all #.

:36:24.:36:35.

. You get the sense there is a bit

:36:36.:36:38.

more sizzle than sausage

:36:39.:36:43.

with Apple at the moment. It's the best iPhone

:36:44.:36:45.

that we have ever created. Yes, there were some neat

:36:46.:36:47.

new features but nothing to rival the startling

:36:48.:36:49.

innovation of the Jobs era. At some point the new

:36:50.:36:54.

computers will end up collectors like Max Smith,

:36:55.:36:56.

a repair shop in East London. But some economists believe

:36:57.:37:02.

that we are now at the end of this period

:37:03.:37:04.

of extraordinary technological That all the big changes that have

:37:05.:37:06.

transformed our societies The challenge for the future

:37:07.:37:11.

is how do we satisfy the wants and needs

:37:12.:37:16.

of more and more people

:37:17.:37:17.

with minimal economic growth? Economist Robert Gordon created this

:37:18.:37:22.

graph showing economic growth in the leading

:37:23.:37:26.

industrial nation - that was first There has been a blip,

:37:27.:37:29.

he says, over the past 100 years from innovations like

:37:30.:37:36.

the steam locomotive, the telegraph But the trend, he says,

:37:37.:37:38.

is very much now downwards. The problem we face is that

:37:39.:37:42.

all these great inventions, we have

:37:43.:37:46.

to match them in the future. And my prediction that we're not

:37:47.:37:57.

going to match them brings us down from the original 2% growth down to

:37:58.:38:03.

0.2%, the fanciful curve that I drew you at the beginning. The theory is

:38:04.:38:10.

that most of the huge advantages of organisation, allegation, sanitation

:38:11.:38:12.

and computing have already been raped. What is left is marginal,

:38:13.:38:18.

incremental evolution, not revolution. According to other

:38:19.:38:21.

academics, this pessimism couldn't be more unwarranted. I think the

:38:22.:38:26.

really important age of innovation is still ahead of us. We have

:38:27.:38:31.

innovated a lot in terms of gaining control of the world outside, but we

:38:32.:38:35.

haven't really began in terms of changing the world inside us, just

:38:36.:38:41.

as in the Bible God has the ability to create animals and plants and

:38:42.:38:46.

humans are according to his wishes, Sylvie are now gaining with the help

:38:47.:38:51.

of biotechnology and artificial intelligence is the ability to start

:38:52.:38:55.

engineering and manufacturing living beings. I think that in the next

:38:56.:39:00.

century, in the 21st-century, the main products of the human economy

:39:01.:39:05.

will not be textiles and food and iPhones, they will be bodies, brains

:39:06.:39:11.

and minds. Some economists believe that what is missing today are

:39:12.:39:15.

engaged state institutions to set the direction for innovation. Beef

:39:16.:39:20.

fame Apollo man on the and programme from Nasa actually ended up over

:39:21.:39:26.

time, and that is another thing, allowing that time to take place,

:39:27.:39:34.

ended up producing most of the technology that is in the iPhone.

:39:35.:39:40.

What makes the smart -- iPhone smart not stupid are things like GPS,

:39:41.:39:46.

voice-activated systems, as well as the touch-screen display. All those

:39:47.:39:51.

were publicly financed. Without some idea of the big goals for

:39:52.:39:56.

innovation, perhaps we end up pursuing the short-term, marginal

:39:57.:40:00.

and trivial. And producing a pristine, Mira- like surface. There

:40:01.:40:10.

is a parallel with the hierarchy of needs. Our society progresses, we go

:40:11.:40:18.

for things like focusing on survival, to establishing the social

:40:19.:40:23.

order, to self actualisation. We become more obsessed with ourselves,

:40:24.:40:26.

and that is what innovators are responding to. It may be, then, that

:40:27.:40:33.

the future will contain innovation, but not innovation that leads to

:40:34.:40:38.

economic growth or makes the growing global population more prosperous,

:40:39.:40:41.

and that truly is a challenge for the innovators.

:40:42.:40:47.

And that was it from David Grossman. Almost time to go, but one story to

:40:48.:40:52.

bring you on the front of the Times. MPs will be leaving Parliament in a

:40:53.:40:57.

?4 billion restoration plan. It is the first time since 1941. Theresa

:40:58.:41:03.

May taking action to recommend that they decamp, and the MPs will go.

:41:04.:41:12.

The House of Lords will move to the Queen Elizabeth conference centre.

:41:13.:41:17.

That's it for tonight. Tomorrow will be a very special day

:41:18.:41:19.

in the hearts of true sci-fi fans - it's the 50th anniversary

:41:20.:41:23.

of the first ever screening And just in case you think

:41:24.:41:25.

it was just a TV show, ask the staff at Nasa

:41:26.:41:30.

or the Jet Propulsion Laboratory Ask any Western scientist

:41:31.:41:32.

or engineer involved The largest federation of

:41:33.:41:35.

scientists, engineers and explorers. So, from all of us here

:41:36.:41:42.

at Nasa headquarters...

:41:43.:41:45.

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