04/10/2016 Newsnight


04/10/2016

Evan Davis meets the prime minister, and there is a discussion of the war with ISIS for Mosul and an interview with Britain's newest Nobel Prize winner.


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Transcript


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Ladies and gentleman, it is your new Prime Minister.

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And piece by piece this week, we are slowly getting to know her.

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I've got a task to do, as Prime Minister.

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To reinstate some trust for the British people with

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Well, there's a bigger issue of trust we have at the

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moment, which is us delivering on the Brexit vote.

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She's firmly resisting giving much away about herself and her plans.

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But we've been trying to break through the defences, speaking

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She was contemplating standing for the

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There is no criticism of her to say she had that ambition.

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And I think she has thought hard and long.

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Also, if I might say so, she's worked hard.

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Also tonight, the nearby oilfields torched

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by Islamic State still burn, as the two million residents

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of Mosul are told to prepare for the massive US-led offensive

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And the three British Nobel prize winners for physics who were part

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We hear from one of the recipients, Duncan Haldane.

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As well as Sir Martin Rees, the Astronomer Royal.

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Hello, welcome back to the Tory conference, here in Birmingham,

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where there is really only one big star right now, Theresa May.

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There are lots of small stars, softly glowing on the sidelines.

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That's the cabinet, but the new Prime Minister

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And we will be focussing on what we know of her style

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But before we do, we have news of another party

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leader this evening, Diane James, very recently elected

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Our political editor Nick Watt is with me.

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Extraordinary. 18 days since she was elected. What do we know about the

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circumstances? In the last hour Diane James has issued a statement

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saying she is standing down for personal and professional reasons.

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In this statement she issued to the Times newspaper she has cited, for

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example, she was very shaken when she was back at on a train on her

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way to Cardiff in recent days. That shook her. There are also evidently

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medical problems within immediate member of her family. Interesting

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comment that state when she is talking about that she won the

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enthusiastic support of party members 18 days ago but then she

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goes on to say "It has become clear I do not have sufficient authority

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nor the full support of my MEP colleagues and party offices to him,

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changes". That is upon which I based my

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campaign. Interesting, on the official papers you have to sign,

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confirming you are leader, she added the word, in Latin, under direction.

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She has never been officially made a leader. But there is no debate about

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the fact that Ukip has had a horrendous success in the referendum

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but then complete enclosure. Arguably, Ukip is this country's

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most successful party ever, they were set up to do one thing and it

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has been achieved. Take us out of the European union. To mulch was

:03:37.:03:43.

leader contest. Diane James, or those you MEPs in Strasbourg, she

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had dinner with Nigel Farage and he has told LBC this evening that he

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does not rule out a return to the leadership. He has done that before.

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Maybe Steven Woolfe, another one of those high-flying MEPs. He failed to

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submit his nomination papers on time. He has a second chance if it

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comes to that. Thank you, we will hear from you in the programme.

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Now here, Theresa May is very much on top here.

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But for one who is so much the centre of attention,

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she exhibits a certain reluctance to open up.

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That's not a criticism, it's an observation.

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Tomorrow is her day, when she makes the most

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important speech of her year, addressing the conference

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But today was her day, too, with a number of interviews.

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All of us trying to get some kind of clue as to her intentions.

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At this point that reticence works to her advantage, because everybody

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But can she really hope to sustain the acclaim?

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Our political editor Nick Watt has been looking at what's known

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Rarely in our recent history has a political

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leader risen so far, while revealing so

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In the autumn sunshine of Birmingham, this week,

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our new Prime Minister, who has been on the front line

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of British politics for the best part of two decades...

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I was the first to promote for a woman Chairman and she became

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the first woman Chairman of the Conservative Party.

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I know that in Theresa there is real steel.

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Theresa May is enjoying something of a political honeymoon,

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which is lasting longer than the brief excitement

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The last Prime Minister to take over without an election.

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Officials regard her as "No Drama Theresa"

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and are struck by how she's taken the preparations for today's

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Friends say that the honeymoon is not down to luck,

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You should remember, Nick, she was contemplating standing

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And there's no criticism of her to say that she had that ambition.

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And I think she has thought hard and long.

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Also, if I can say, she's worked hard at her brief on whatever she's

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been doing, Home Secretary or whatever.

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And, so, she was well prepared for coming into office.

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Theresa May has slipped naturally into her new role.

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The atmosphere in Downing Street is said to be orderly and calm,

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And her days as party chairman have paid off,

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as she looks at ease with grassroots Tories in Birmingham.

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She's somebody that is at home with the Conservative Party,

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she likes the Conservative Party, she came up through it.

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And I would think, in just about every constituency, there

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I think the fact is, and I'm sure that David Cameron

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will probably accept this, there wasn't a great

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He got them into a position to win elections.

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And he ran a difficult coalition for five years.

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I think, however, with Theresa there is an almost immediate sense

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The Tories have long known that Theresa May is a pragmatist.

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But this week, she's been selling herself to the conference

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as a leader driven by political passions, as she talks

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But if she wants to succeed, one former minister passed over

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in the reshuffle suggests that she should do more to build up

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Theresa has been a member of our party and really at

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the core of our party, counsellor and Chairman,

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going to association dinners for many, many years.

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And really respected and liked, because of all of that,

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David never had that advantage because she was so much younger.

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But, actually DC did go out into the tea room and he was in

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But she needs to do that. Those things are important.

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Listen, if you can socialise with all our wonderful members,

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Old colleagues say that even the happiest of honeymoons

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And the inhabitants of Downing Street can

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become consumed by the inevitable incoming fire.

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The thing about being Prime Minister is that the bullets

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In other departments, it's not so intense.

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But, actually, the Department where it is most intense,

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outside of Number Ten, is, undoubtedly, the Home Office.

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If five people in the Conservative Parliamentary party are not onside

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and the other parties get their act together,

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then she won't be able to get her wishes through the House of Commons.

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After a tumultuous few months for the Tories, Theresa May

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aims to set the seal on a lasting relationship

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The next challenge is to win round the country by finally

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Nick is with me again to look ahead to tomorrow.

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His whole programme, today. What do we know about the speech tomorrow

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this is Theresa May's big chance to explain to the country her guiding

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philosophy and everyone had an idea of her big message, we need to look

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at a little noticed section of her interview with the Sunday Times at

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the weekend when she said that government can be good. She had to

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look at a little noticed section of her interview with the Sunday Times

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at the weekend when she said that government can be good. She had

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talked a lot this week about how she use the levers of the state. We

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should look at one of the key lines in the speech she made in this city

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on July 11 when she launched her national leadership campaign, which

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didn't last very long. She said "We don't hate the state, we value the

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role that only the state can play". Do you see an ism here, a

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philosophy, a guiding principle, intellectual underpinning? I

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certainly see a rejection of one ism, if you are saying you don't

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hate the state, you are rejecting Margaret Thatcher's famous statement

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that there is no such thing as society. A mild rebuke to David

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Cameron who famously responded to Margaret Thatcher by saying there is

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such a thing as society, is just not the same as the state. He was wary

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of the state. But if we want to know what is going on, the philosophy, we

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should turn to a friend of this programme, Danny Finkelstein, he has

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his finger on the Tory polls and he has an interesting column in

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tomorrow's times. To understand what Theresa May is up to, he says we

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need to think of two moment in 20th-century US history. Firstly,

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look-back two decades to a famous editorial in the conservative

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American magazine the weekly standard. Saying the Conservatives

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should talk about the role of government and not its limits. The

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editorial turned way back to the turn of the sentry at the Republican

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president, Teddy Roosevelt, who embraced progressive ideas and

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demanded a square deal for workers. Teddy Roosevelt. Nick, thanks.

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Well, let's hear from the Prime Minister herself.

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She gave a number of tightly-timed interviews to broadcasters this

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afternoon, before we had any foreknowledge of her speech.

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So would she give us any clues as to her approach to government?

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We thought we might talk a little about moral

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dimensions to public life, because you, in a way, wanted

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to change quite a lot about Britain and make it a country

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I just wondered whether there was, whether that meant there

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was an ethical gap in your view of it, that you think

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So, I wanted to explore that with you.

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Well, I think it's very important that people don't feel

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that economic growth, the benefits of what is happening

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in society, are only being felt by a privileged few.

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I think it is important that government ensures that we do

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have a country that works for everyone, and that comes

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It means an economy that works for everyone, where economic

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benefits are spread more across the country.

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A society that works for everyone, so individuals, I have always

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believed that individuals need to have the opportunity to get

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on in life as far as their talents and hard work will take them.

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I want to explore it on a few specifics, so let's take

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And David Cameron once said he begrudged the fact that some

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companies put chocolate oranges by the checkout where

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you are tempted to buy them, rather than real oranges.

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So, if I'm a company and I can make money by selling chocolate,

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even though it might be better for the customers if I sold fruit,

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In looking at businesses, I'm very clear that we need

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to deal with corporate irresponsibility, when we see that.

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Which is why I have already spoken about some of the changes I am

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looking at in terms of corporate governance and we will be bringing

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forward some proposals later this year in that area.

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I think people want to feel that everybody plays by the same

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And feel that there isn't just one law for the privileged few

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Does that mean sometimes companies should do more

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When it comes to tax, for example, they say the obey the law,

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Is that enough, if you are pushing the rules to the very limit, or not?

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I think companies must recognise that actually they have

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For any company, they don't just do things on their own,

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they have a reliance on people in their community,

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This is why I'm talking about issues like consumer representation

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being on boards, worker representation being on boards.

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I think it is looking at that wider community in terms of the impact

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Let's take another area, which is party funding.

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You will know lots of people have given money to political

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parties and have ended up in the House of Lords.

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A lot of people would say that's not a country working for all,

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that's giving rich people more power over our country than other people.

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Could you imagine giving peerages to Conservative Party donors?

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First of all, the question about party funding is one,

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of course, there have been several attempts to change

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One of the reasons why the attempts to change the rules on party funding

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and to bring in some limits to individual donations have

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faltered is because the Labour Party is unwilling to see changes to trade

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Which of course often has a direct impact on who they have affected

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Which of course often has a direct impact on who they have elected

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as their leader and what policies they choose to follow.

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Yes, but I didn't hear the answer to the question.

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Is it possible, because others have tried to get to grips

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You are trying to get to grips with things that other people

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haven't got to grips with, so is it possible that you would be

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giving peerages to people who have made large donations to your party?

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The answer to that is, Evan, that at the moment

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with everything I'm looking at, the last thing I'm thinking

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I've got a task to do as Prime Minister, it's to deliver,

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to reinstate some trust for the British people

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There is a bigger issue of trust that we have at the moment,

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which is us delivering on the Brexit vote that took

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But this means you could be giving peerages to people

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who are giving donations, and that isn't the country working

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for all, that is the most simple example that you,

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Theresa May, could stop here and now in this interview,

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by just saying, by the way, give money to the Tories, we are not

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What I think is important in terms of the honours system,

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and I said this the other day, is that it is an honour system that

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rewards those who have made contributions to our society.

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If you look at the vast majority of people who receive honours,

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actually they are people who are working in their local

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I think it's important we have a system that recognises

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when people are contributing to our society in that way.

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Let me try one last one, foreign policy.

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Robin Cook famously talked about an ethical

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Did you see foreign policy as needing a strong ethical dimension?

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And I would cite an example, which is British

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Select committee reports have said those are probably being used

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We are selling the arms to Saudi Arabia, but atrocities

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in Yemen being perpetrated, by British weapons.

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Is that something Britain should be doing, or not?

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First of all, we have one of the strongest regimes in terms

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of exports of arms anywhere of any country in the world.

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In this case, is it working in this case?

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We have one of the strongest regimes in relation to arms exports of any

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We have been very clear, I have been very clear

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personally with Saudi Arabia that we expect these issues

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And if necessary, lessons to be learned.

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But what is important in foreign policy I think, first of all,

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is that we consider what is in the British National interest.

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We are going to be taking, continuing to take,

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but enhancing our global role, our role on the world stage.

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As we come out of the European Union.

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That is about the partnerships we form around the whole of the world.

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People listening to this would say, what I'm hearing from Theresa May

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is not quite as different to what I might have expected

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I would be hearing about a new regime, you ethical standards,

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a determination if you like to sweep away some of the privileges

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and institutions that have been dominating or existing,

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Are you that determined to change things?

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If you listen to my speech that I'm going to give to the party

:17:19.:17:21.

conference tomorrow, I'm setting out the sort of economic

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and social reform that I want to see for a country that

:17:24.:17:26.

With us here is the Cabinet Minister James Brokenshire,

:17:27.:17:33.

He's someone who served in the Home Office under Theresa May

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and is seen as one of her closest allies in the Cabinet.

:17:37.:17:44.

Interesting watching that, she really is not someone who gives, she

:17:45.:17:54.

retreats quite often to save lines on issues rather than thinking

:17:55.:17:58.

aloud. Is that because she does not know what her mind is all because

:17:59.:18:05.

she is keen not to say too much at this point. From all my experience

:18:06.:18:09.

in working with Theresa May over the last six or eight years, through her

:18:10.:18:13.

time as Home Secretary, she has been very much a big picture issue person

:18:14.:18:19.

as well as down into the detail. What you see from her is that

:18:20.:18:22.

clarity of thought she understands and watches going to get across in

:18:23.:18:27.

terms of the themes that matter to her. She is a serious politician and

:18:28.:18:30.

thinks carefully about everything she says. She is very much into that

:18:31.:18:36.

level of detail, I think she wants to think things through instead of

:18:37.:18:40.

giving an off-the-cuff answer. She does not want to black stuff out.

:18:41.:18:48.

Isis bows it is reminiscent of Gordon Brown, not just quite

:18:49.:18:51.

answering the question when it is given. I cannot see that comparison!

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It is the very focused and detailed approach that the Prime Minister

:18:58.:19:01.

gives. That is the skill we need at the moment when we are looking at

:19:02.:19:05.

Brexit, at this detailed negotiation we have coming up. I think it is

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that approach that she brings. Disciplined message. Let us talk

:19:12.:19:16.

about Brexit and Northern Ireland, your patch, the issue of the border

:19:17.:19:20.

between North and South is a very sticky one. Is it possible that

:19:21.:19:26.

Britain will leave the single market and not be in the so-called customs

:19:27.:19:32.

union that is the EU at the moment, which effectively is the kind of

:19:33.:19:35.

trading zone with a wall around it that has tariffs on certain items

:19:36.:19:40.

coming from abroad. We have come to no conclusions. There has been no

:19:41.:19:46.

analysis that concludes on this. So we're not going to give a running

:19:47.:19:51.

commentary. It is possible because you have not come to a conclusion on

:19:52.:19:58.

it. The bit I want to investigate, if the South of Ireland is on one

:19:59.:20:03.

side, in one customs union and the North in a different one, there has

:20:04.:20:07.

got to be a customs post of some kind between the two. Well we have

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come to no conclusions, we are seeking to achieve the best outcome

:20:12.:20:17.

of the negotiations for Northern Ireland... You are just parroting

:20:18.:20:21.

stuff, and to the question. We will be coming to that as part of the

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analysis, as part of that point. But there is a strong desire to see that

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we do not return to the borders of the past, something that I have been

:20:32.:20:35.

clear on. How we have the Common travel area that has served us since

:20:36.:20:40.

about 1923 between the Republic of Ireland and the UK. And that sense

:20:41.:20:44.

also of the land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of

:20:45.:20:57.

Ireland. And how that benefits goods and services and intends equally of

:20:58.:20:59.

politics and identity. Everyone shares the objective but if for

:21:00.:21:01.

example Britain is importing stuff from the United States and the EU

:21:02.:21:04.

wants to charge tariffs on those items, the EU with said we need a

:21:05.:21:09.

customs post otherwise people will import it into the North of Ireland,

:21:10.:21:13.

exported into the South without paying the European tariffs, and

:21:14.:21:18.

customs will not work. Have you worked out a way of the UK not being

:21:19.:21:22.

in the customs union without having a customs post? As we have not

:21:23.:21:29.

reached any conclusions I will not comment on the detail of what we are

:21:30.:21:33.

preparing. But we're working closely with the Irish government who have

:21:34.:21:36.

this shared objective because of the benefits for the Irish economy and

:21:37.:21:42.

also the UK economy around this. Is it acceptable that there might be

:21:43.:21:47.

not a border, but at customs post, and honesty box if you like, or

:21:48.:21:54.

maybe not actually a physical honesty box but a system in which

:21:55.:21:59.

you have to make a declaration within 30 days of exporting. Are

:22:00.:22:06.

these acceptable ways of Britain leading the customs area? I

:22:07.:22:10.

understand your desire to get more detail, we are not going to provide

:22:11.:22:14.

that level of detail on this. But I can say clearly that we want to see

:22:15.:22:18.

the freest trade of goods and services between the Republic of

:22:19.:22:23.

Ireland and the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland. That benefit that

:22:24.:22:28.

we see. The way technology has moved on, I spoke about the Common travel

:22:29.:22:33.

area, and the way the digital use of information, all these issues we are

:22:34.:22:36.

discussing clearly with the Irish government. Let's just move on,

:22:37.:22:45.

Amber Rudd today hinted in her briefings that companies might be

:22:46.:22:50.

asked to publish how many international staff they employ, the

:22:51.:22:52.

proportion of staff better international as opposed to British.

:22:53.:22:57.

Do you think that is something shameful about companies employing

:22:58.:23:00.

foreign staff, that there should be embarrassed about it and should try

:23:01.:23:05.

to get that number down? As a government we have set clearly we

:23:06.:23:08.

want to attract the brightest and the best to come to the UK. To

:23:09.:23:13.

contribute to our economic growth and prosperity. That is something I

:23:14.:23:18.

was clear on when I was at the Home Office making those points. When we

:23:19.:23:23.

look at transparency, those pressures that are there on the

:23:24.:23:28.

public services, pressures about the speed and the rate of migration. It

:23:29.:23:33.

is about bringing greater control and transparency. Naming and shaming

:23:34.:23:38.

companies because they employ foreigners, is that what we have

:23:39.:23:43.

come to, is that the country that is open to the world that we have been

:23:44.:23:48.

talking about. There is an issue in relation to skills for example,

:23:49.:23:52.

companies and UK have under invested in skills and training of workers

:23:53.:23:55.

here in this country and therefore that sense of the work we need to do

:23:56.:24:02.

to give skills to workers here and equally with apprenticeships, the

:24:03.:24:05.

2.9 million were developed, all these issues together. And this is a

:24:06.:24:11.

complex issue when you look at controlling migration. Then would

:24:12.:24:16.

you not want to publish something on skills, or training budgets, or

:24:17.:24:19.

apprenticeships. But to focus on the number of foreigners that you

:24:20.:24:23.

employee, is that really the Britain you want to be living in? What I

:24:24.:24:29.

want to do, what I want to see as the government is that we are

:24:30.:24:32.

outward looking, we are attracting skilled workers to come to the

:24:33.:24:36.

country to provide that strength and growth that we continue to want to

:24:37.:24:40.

see. But I think it is important that we focus on skills and

:24:41.:24:44.

training, on that balance of employment so we're seeing, as Amber

:24:45.:24:49.

Rudd has highlighted today, we want to consult on EU migration policies,

:24:50.:24:55.

to see how we can bring those controls because that is what

:24:56.:24:58.

matters. That is the message that came from the referendum and that is

:24:59.:25:01.

what Amber Rudd has been saying today.

:25:02.:25:03.

Well, if the Conservative Party is a delicate ecology of different

:25:04.:25:06.

political creatures, then there's one species

:25:07.:25:07.

which is noticeable by its absence here in Birmingham: the so-called

:25:08.:25:10.

Cameroons, friends and allies of the former Prime Minister.

:25:11.:25:12.

There have been few sightings, so we sent our resident twitcher

:25:13.:25:15.

Lewis Goodall to try to find some evidence of them.

:25:16.:25:29.

The most endangered species at this conference are the Cameroons.

:25:30.:25:33.

And we at Newsnight are worried about their welfare.

:25:34.:25:35.

They used to be dominant here, some worry they are now extinct.

:25:36.:25:38.

You haven't seen any Cameroons knocking around, have you, at all?

:25:39.:25:45.

We're looking for some Cameroons, have you seen any?

:25:46.:25:52.

You know, you're trying to find an endangered species.

:25:53.:26:05.

You know, miss is a strong word, isn't it?

:26:06.:26:09.

George Osborne, Michael Gove, they used to run this place.

:26:10.:26:12.

Would you say you're sort of a Cameroon, Mr Gork?

:26:13.:26:25.

Now we have another very good Prime Minister.

:26:26.:26:29.

Mr Willetts, you are a Cameroon, aren't you?

:26:30.:26:31.

I certainly served under David Cameron's government

:26:32.:26:32.

Are you worried that that part of the party has disappeared,

:26:33.:26:38.

No, I think that the modernisers and moderates in the party are alive

:26:39.:26:43.

and well and kicking and well represented

:26:44.:26:44.

Hello, it's Lewis Goodall from Newsnight.

:26:45.:26:56.

I'm making a piece about what's happened to the Cameroons,

:26:57.:27:02.

We are just slightly worried they might be extinct.

:27:03.:27:13.

That's day three of the Conservative Party Conference.

:27:14.:27:27.

Tomorrow is the last day and some would say that is fortunate,

:27:28.:27:30.

because the pound has been sinking since the Tories got

:27:31.:27:33.

here and we can't afford for them to keep the conference going.

:27:34.:27:36.

But for now, back to you Kirsty in London.

:27:37.:27:42.

The Radio of the Republic of Iraq in Mosul started broadcasting

:27:43.:27:46.

to residents of the city today with advice about how to stay safe

:27:47.:27:49.

during the expected US coordinated offensive to dislodge Islamic State.

:27:50.:27:51.

Mosul is the last major city in Iraq under the control of IS,

:27:52.:27:55.

and Prime minister Haider al-Abadi wants to recapture it before

:27:56.:27:58.

President Erdogan of Turkey has already announced the date

:27:59.:28:03.

on which he believes the huge operation will begin -

:28:04.:28:06.

October 19th - unconfirmed of course.

:28:07.:28:09.

What is definite is that the population of Mosul -

:28:10.:28:12.

up to two million people, who have been brutally

:28:13.:28:14.

repressed for two years, are facing weeks of extreme danger

:28:15.:28:18.

when the imminent encirclement to oust their oppressors begins.

:28:19.:28:21.

Here's our diplomatic editor Mark Urban.

:28:22.:28:30.

It was in Mosul that Iraq's army crumbled,

:28:31.:28:33.

And in Mosul that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi declared his caliphate.

:28:34.:28:43.

Capturing the place gave the Islamic State

:28:44.:28:45.

It's where the whole campaign against

:28:46.:28:55.

It's where Isis became something, became known to

:28:56.:28:58.

the international community, to the regional players.

:28:59.:29:00.

It's important because the end of the so-called

:29:01.:29:02.

caliphate, or the Mosul liberation, begin select phase of this whole

:29:03.:29:09.

process, of this campaign, of this conflict.

:29:10.:29:13.

Since the IS high watermark, when they were 20 miles

:29:14.:29:15.

from Baghdad, the group has been forced out of Tikrit,

:29:16.:29:19.

In Syria, Turkish troops and American backed militia have

:29:20.:29:25.

cleared them from most of the Turkish border.

:29:26.:29:28.

Movements between the jihadists' major strongholds, Raqqa

:29:29.:29:32.

And it's bound to grow harder still as Iraqi forces

:29:33.:29:38.

France has now joined in air strikes it says will begin the

:29:39.:29:46.

The Americans have committed additional troops and

:29:47.:29:51.

whereas at first neither the White House nor its allies wanted people

:29:52.:29:54.

on the ground, there are now coalition troops joining the Iraqi

:29:55.:29:57.

The coalition is providing headquarters support, that

:29:58.:30:05.

means logistics, flying in to provide food, fuel,

:30:06.:30:08.

ammunition, also providing intelligence and providing

:30:09.:30:09.

a large number of air strikes and also artillery strikes fired from

:30:10.:30:12.

Mosul is currently surrounded on three sides by Kurdish forces.

:30:13.:30:24.

To the north-west, there are groups guided by US and British

:30:25.:30:27.

To the south, though, at Qayyarah airbase, the Iraqi army

:30:28.:30:33.

is assembling its armoured brigades, which will push north assisted by US

:30:34.:30:38.

and French artillery on the ground, as well as air support.

:30:39.:30:45.

Over the next two weeks, they will shape the battlefield with

:30:46.:30:48.

these strikes and in a fortnight,

:30:49.:30:49.

begin the ground advance to tighten their encirclement.

:30:50.:30:54.

Opinions differ as to how well IS will fight.

:30:55.:30:58.

Publicly, coalition commanders are expressing

:30:59.:31:00.

cautious optimism about the offensive.

:31:01.:31:04.

Privately though, many acknowledge that Islamic State

:31:05.:31:06.

forces in Mosul could collapse very quickly.

:31:07.:31:12.

If success happens in that way, it could bring a whole new set

:31:13.:31:15.

of challenges in a place that has been contested between different

:31:16.:31:17.

regional powers and their proxy militias for decades.

:31:18.:31:26.

Secret footage taken in the city with a population

:31:27.:31:29.

of nearly two million shows them awaiting in trepidation.

:31:30.:31:34.

Having experienced the brutality of IS

:31:35.:31:41.

rule, people in Mosul now fear a long battle and fresh sectarian

:31:42.:31:43.

We as citizens think that the situation in Mosul

:31:44.:31:49.

after it is liberated will get even worse.

:31:50.:32:09.

The chances of it turning sour is very high, simply because Isis

:32:10.:32:12.

Mosul is contested for strategic reasons, the Kurds have territories

:32:13.:32:18.

there that they are disputing, the same applies to Baghdad.

:32:19.:32:23.

Whatever happens after Mosul will decide the shape

:32:24.:32:25.

When the Iraqi army abandoned Mosul in 2014, locals

:32:26.:32:30.

It was a measure of how badly relations between Sunni

:32:31.:32:43.

citizens and a largely Shia army had degenerated.

:32:44.:32:45.

The Iraqi authorities today will need to tread carefully

:32:46.:32:47.

in the city's reconquest is not to generate fresh strife.

:32:48.:32:56.

"We have more Nobel Laureates than any country outside America,"

:32:57.:32:58.

And that total has now gone up, after three British

:32:59.:33:02.

scientists were awarded the Nobel Prize for Physics.

:33:03.:33:06.

David Thouless, Duncan Haldane and Michael Kosterlitz

:33:07.:33:10.

who are at three different American universities, collaborated

:33:11.:33:12.

in the 1970s and 80s here in the UK on research into the behaviour

:33:13.:33:15.

After the announcement, the Astronomer Royal Sir Martin Rees

:33:16.:33:21.

noted that all three had "defected" to the US in the 80s when university

:33:22.:33:25.

budgets were being squeezed, and that there was a serious risk

:33:26.:33:27.

that there could be a renewed surge of defections -

:33:28.:33:30.

spurred, he said, by the kind of rhetoric in the Home Secretary's

:33:31.:33:33.

speech today, in which she announced plans for new restrictions

:33:34.:33:36.

In a moment, I'll be speaking to Duncan Haldane live

:33:37.:33:43.

from Princeton University but first, earlier this evening I spoke

:33:44.:33:45.

I asked him what a great day this was for science in the UK.

:33:46.:33:53.

It is, these three people were trained in Britain,

:33:54.:33:55.

But sadly, they are in all cases working in the US now,

:33:56.:34:03.

So, the Home Secretary today, Amber Rudd, at conference said that

:34:04.:34:08.

what she was going to do was move to limit the number

:34:09.:34:11.

of overseas students, but always be able to bring

:34:12.:34:13.

In terms of the scientific world, what is your reaction to that?

:34:14.:34:22.

I think let's recall that these three people went to the US

:34:23.:34:25.

in the early 1980s, that was the Thatcher period,

:34:26.:34:27.

And many people defected at that time.

:34:28.:34:34.

I think that in the last 20 years, UK science has greatly strengthened

:34:35.:34:37.

and that is partly, incidentally, because it has become more

:34:38.:34:39.

international and far more involved with mainland Europe.

:34:40.:34:45.

And it would be very sad if this was jeopardised, of course,

:34:46.:34:47.

by limiting immigration and by the difficulty

:34:48.:34:49.

I thought Amber Rudd's speech was really deplorable because that

:34:50.:35:04.

would certainly lead to difficulties and the perception

:35:05.:35:06.

is often worse than the reality, that is the problem.

:35:07.:35:09.

People feel they are not welcome and they will not apply to come

:35:10.:35:12.

We have really gained tremendously, if we think of other Nobel Prize

:35:13.:35:17.

winners in recent years, they have come to this country.

:35:18.:35:19.

The president of the Royal Society, Mr Ramakrishnan, is an Indian

:35:20.:35:23.

And we had two Russians who came to Manchester, via Holland.

:35:24.:35:31.

And they got a Nobel Prize, for discovering grapheme.

:35:32.:35:35.

And we benefit from that sort of thing and it would be very sad

:35:36.:35:39.

if the mentality changes so that these people

:35:40.:35:40.

But surely, in a way, if there is even a limiting

:35:41.:35:48.

because of the fact that we are leaving the EU, it

:35:49.:35:51.

will encourage scientists to make, perhaps reach out and make

:35:52.:35:53.

It perhaps will encourage more creative thinking about the kind

:35:54.:35:58.

We benefit from the EU, but we certainly

:35:59.:36:03.

In my small department at Cambridge University,

:36:04.:36:06.

the last five appointments we made were three from the EU,

:36:07.:36:09.

And that is typical of the University, we are very global.

:36:10.:36:17.

And the point is it is very important to remain

:36:18.:36:19.

Do you think we are doing the right things now to breed the next

:36:20.:36:24.

generation of Nobel Prize winners in the United Kingdom, or not?

:36:25.:36:28.

I think in the last ten or 20 years, the gradient was positive.

:36:29.:36:32.

But the worry is that could all be lost by the perception

:36:33.:36:35.

Because two things happened, first, outstanding foreigners won't be able

:36:36.:36:44.

to come and work here, people who are working here

:36:45.:36:46.

And of course young people will feel that science is not a career

:36:47.:36:51.

where they can do the best work in this country,

:36:52.:36:53.

So it's all very sensitive to the perception and whether

:36:54.:36:58.

And the risk is we lose the rather high morale we have had

:36:59.:37:03.

Lord Rees, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

:37:04.:37:07.

Well, Professor Haldane joins us down the line

:37:08.:37:10.

Good evening. Many congratulations. Thank you very much. We will come on

:37:11.:37:26.

and talk in a minute or two about what Lord Rees was saying. How did

:37:27.:37:32.

you find out you had won the Nobel prize? Well, I got the usual

:37:33.:37:37.

telephone call, which here, in the United States, comes in at 10:15am

:37:38.:37:45.

Swedish time but it was for 15 AM in the morning, US time. LAUGHTER

:37:46.:37:52.

Not very considerate of them! -- for 15 AM. It was a welcome call even

:37:53.:37:56.

though it work me up from my sleep. We saw earlier that you went to

:37:57.:38:00.

lectures at delivered your lectures to great applause.

:38:01.:38:04.

It was a late-night programme, very hard to summarise what you do in 30

:38:05.:38:11.

seconds, but over those years when you three worked together, was there

:38:12.:38:15.

one eureka moment when you realised you were something together? I think

:38:16.:38:21.

we didn't really work together, I mean, I was inspired by ideas that

:38:22.:38:28.

David Thouless had. In all our ways, we realised that while the laws of

:38:29.:38:34.

quantum mechanics had been well-known for many years, Einstein

:38:35.:38:37.

thought it was wrong and he proposed very interesting tests, which he

:38:38.:38:41.

thought would refute quantum mechanics but all they did was

:38:42.:38:45.

strengthen it. Knowing the laws of it doesn't tell you the amazing

:38:46.:38:48.

things they can do. What all three of us have done in our different

:38:49.:38:54.

ways is discovered very unexpected things that quantum mechanics does

:38:55.:38:59.

allow to happen. You were then able to pursue your career. By going to

:39:00.:39:05.

the United States. Now you heard Lord Rees say that he is concerned

:39:06.:39:10.

that with the impact of Brexit, that the best students will not come here

:39:11.:39:16.

and he won't be able to collaborate as easily with students for a double

:39:17.:39:19.

from the EU. Do you recognise the picture he paints? -- with students

:39:20.:39:27.

as easily. It is a very international enterprise, scientific

:39:28.:39:31.

research. It is important that one can have the best students coming.

:39:32.:39:35.

They are the fuel which drives enterprise, in many ways.

:39:36.:39:41.

One of the key thing is perhaps lacking in the 1970s and 1980s in

:39:42.:39:50.

British science funding was an idea that the government funding should

:39:51.:39:58.

be useful. All the most used -- most useful discoveries come from what is

:39:59.:40:05.

called curiosity -based research. That was something that was very

:40:06.:40:10.

strongly favoured by the National science foundation in the United

:40:11.:40:13.

States. They did a lot to create a very exciting atmosphere. In the UK,

:40:14.:40:21.

a lot has changed. It has become realised again that the goods

:40:22.:40:24.

discoveries don't come because you set out to make them, they come

:40:25.:40:29.

because you are doing something you find interesting. Many times, one

:40:30.:40:33.

will discover something that turned out to be useful and stimulating. Do

:40:34.:40:41.

you agree with Lord Rees, that any way of reducing that through

:40:42.:40:44.

particular mechanisms that we might lose because we are outside the EU

:40:45.:40:48.

and therefore there will be fewer collaborations with different

:40:49.:40:53.

parties presumably what you think, that scientific research has to

:40:54.:40:56.

flourish all the time and it shouldn't be restricted? On the face

:40:57.:41:02.

of it, not being in the EU doesn't mean that scientific research

:41:03.:41:08.

shouldn't continue. I don't want to comment on the detail of immigration

:41:09.:41:12.

issues being discussed. But it is very crucial that one is able to

:41:13.:41:19.

attract the best and brightest students from wherever one can get

:41:20.:41:25.

them for these advanced scientific research. If anything will hinder

:41:26.:41:36.

that, that is a very bad thing for science. I don't want to comment on

:41:37.:41:40.

whether these new rules being proposed will do that.

:41:41.:41:44.

Congratulations once again, I hope your celebrations are long into the

:41:45.:41:45.

night. Thank you. Emily's here tomorrow.

:41:46.:41:47.

Till then, goodnight. Hurricane Matthew leaves a trail of

:41:48.:42:05.

devastation through the

:42:06.:42:06.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis. Evan meets the prime minister, and there is a discussion of the war with ISIS for Mosul and an interview with Britain's newest Nobel Prize winner.


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