12/10/2016 Newsnight


12/10/2016

Has Brexit caused a run on Marmite? Russia, Boris and Syria. Can Trump win? Newsnight talks to the shaken baby syndrome doctor who was struck off. Plus Werner Herzog.


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Major brands are pulled from supermarket shelves

:00:00.:00:13.

A temporary blip or a new way of shopping?

:00:14.:00:21.

We ask the man who built up one of the UKs biggest supply chains.

:00:22.:00:25.

The election of Hillary Clinton would lead, in my opinion, to the

:00:26.:00:29.

almost total destruction of our country as we know it.

:00:30.:00:33.

Can Trump still beat Clinton?

:00:34.:00:38.

Is it possible that shaken baby syndrome doesn't exist?

:00:39.:00:44.

The pathologist who dared to ask the question faces being struck off

:00:45.:00:47.

- the medical establishment damning in their condemnation of her.

:00:48.:00:49.

Next week she appeals that decision -

:00:50.:00:51.

And Werner Herzog chats happily through a semi-apocalypic

:00:52.:00:58.

vision of the future- his latest creation - Lo And Behold.

:00:59.:01:06.

The Internet is a manifestation of evil itself. Are you a ring I Abaul

:01:07.:01:25.

a reliable narrator, Werner? Absolutely, and it doesn't matter if

:01:26.:01:26.

you enhance facts or change things. When Brexit becomes about Marmite,

:01:27.:01:32.

you can be pretty sure it will start This evening, the product emerged

:01:33.:01:36.

centre stage of a row between a supermarket and a supplier

:01:37.:01:40.

over the strength of the pound. Major household brands

:01:41.:01:43.

are running low at Tesco The Anglo-Dutch company is believed

:01:44.:01:46.

to have demanded a 10% price rise due to the falling value

:01:47.:01:56.

of the pound and halted deliveries to Tesco when the supermarket

:01:57.:01:59.

refused to pay more. This is a very big deal because it

:02:00.:02:20.

is about the main thing happening in the UK at the moment, the

:02:21.:02:26.

double-digit fall in sterling. Against all of our trading partners,

:02:27.:02:30.

the pound is at a historic low, and this is the fundamental fact of life

:02:31.:02:34.

for a bit. What this effectively means is that prices and incomes in

:02:35.:02:40.

Britain have fallen relatively compared to prices and incomes in

:02:41.:02:43.

the rest of the world, so this dispute between Tesco and Unilever

:02:44.:02:46.

is about who bears the burden of that. Is it Tesco and Unilever or is

:02:47.:02:54.

it the customer? But the pound has always been very good for exporting?

:02:55.:02:57.

Yes, and we made a hacker this moment as the critical moment when

:02:58.:03:03.

Britain change the way its industrial model works, and our

:03:04.:03:11.

exporters took off. Our big devaluations have genuinely been at

:03:12.:03:19.

the end of periods when we have had tight monetary policy. So they come

:03:20.:03:23.

with big listenings of policy. This devaluation is being driven by the

:03:24.:03:27.

fact that investors don't have as much confidence in Britain, and

:03:28.:03:31.

don't want a hold as much sterling stuff as they used to, so it is

:03:32.:03:36.

different beast. If they were right to have less confidence in Britain

:03:37.:03:45.

as a trader than they do it, then it will be harder for us to do it. If

:03:46.:03:50.

our exporters can take advantage of this change in sterling, selling

:03:51.:03:53.

will rise back up again. Thank you for that.

:03:54.:03:55.

Lord Christopher Haskins, former head of Northern Foods,

:03:56.:03:57.

Lord Haskins, thank you for your time this evening. We know that

:03:58.:04:08.

these sorts of rows emerge quite often between a supplier and a

:04:09.:04:11.

supermarket. What makes this time different? Because first of all

:04:12.:04:16.

there has been a huge build-up of tension between the brand companies

:04:17.:04:21.

and the supermarkets for years and years. The supermarkets don't like

:04:22.:04:27.

selling with brands who determine the Rawls. And you have had this

:04:28.:04:31.

enormous war within the supermarket between the discounters and the

:04:32.:04:36.

Tescos of this world, so the pressure is there. Thirdly, you have

:04:37.:04:40.

the online tension which affects the supermarket business generally at

:04:41.:04:45.

any rate, people don't want to go to supermarkets as much as they did.

:04:46.:04:49.

Then finally you have Brexit which throws a huge wobble, undoubtedly

:04:50.:04:54.

what Unilever is doing is justified in terms of the economics of it, but

:04:55.:05:00.

Tesco is worried that the others may not follow suit. They will have to,

:05:01.:05:05.

because the costs as a result of devaluation are too big for any

:05:06.:05:09.

company to carry. So your sense is who is going to emerge from this

:05:10.:05:14.

stand-off as the winner? Nobody. They are all going to lose. Unilever

:05:15.:05:20.

will have to suffer a little bit because the premiums they have got

:05:21.:05:23.

for their products won't be as big as they could be, and the Aldis of

:05:24.:05:32.

this world will have to put up their prices, so the relationship between

:05:33.:05:35.

Aldi and Tesco will be an interesting one, there is oversupply

:05:36.:05:39.

in the market, and this is its as abated by a price increase like

:05:40.:05:45.

this. If the pound is weak at the moment, this could be a temporary

:05:46.:05:49.

blip. This could level itself out again and we won't see these prices

:05:50.:05:56.

this - long. I think that is unlikely, I think the pound was

:05:57.:05:59.

overvalued before Brexit, and is now getting to its proper level. I

:06:00.:06:05.

suspect it is going to go below its proper level and there will be a

:06:06.:06:11.

serious problem for inflation in 6-12 months' time. So what about the

:06:12.:06:18.

British shopper and the effect it will have on us now? It will bring

:06:19.:06:27.

back to reality to people the consequences of leaving the European

:06:28.:06:31.

Union. It will certainly relies that whatever benefits that may be, there

:06:32.:06:35.

will be no economic benefits for the consumer as the result of what is

:06:36.:06:41.

happening. As you said, you are a staunch remain, and people on the

:06:42.:06:46.

other side will say, don't jump to conclusions. But in terms of what it

:06:47.:06:49.

means for our shopping habits, it doesn't mean we will never have

:06:50.:06:54.

marmite on the shelves again? No, that is where Unilever will win,

:06:55.:06:58.

because despite the fact that people may grumble about paying more for

:06:59.:07:03.

it, they will pay more, and that is the strength of a good brand. But

:07:04.:07:07.

then those people have less money to spend on something else, so it will

:07:08.:07:12.

affect shoppers' behaviour in eight substantial way, and the argument is

:07:13.:07:17.

which of the products will survive and which will do badly. So tonight

:07:18.:07:23.

we are looking principally at Tesco and Unilever. You think this is

:07:24.:07:28.

going to be a pattern repeated throughout supply chains and

:07:29.:07:32.

throughout supermarkets? Inevitably. Tesco happened to be the biggest,

:07:33.:07:39.

but Sainsbury will be facing the same problem, the same tensions with

:07:40.:07:45.

the likes of Unilever and Nestle. The interesting point is how the

:07:46.:07:50.

discounters who are apparently prospering at the moment, how they

:07:51.:07:53.

are going to deal with this situation, because they will have to

:07:54.:07:56.

deal with these price increases. What would be your estimate in terms

:07:57.:08:04.

of the increase on a family shop? The indication is, Unilever want to

:08:05.:08:08.

put their prices up by 10%, so if they want to do that, it is unlikely

:08:09.:08:15.

that the impact on inflation going forward is going to be less than 5%,

:08:16.:08:21.

something like that. The agricultural commodity products work

:08:22.:08:24.

in a different way, but I would have thought that we are looking at food

:08:25.:08:29.

inflation of 5% in 12 months. At what point do you think this becomes

:08:30.:08:34.

hard politics? I think it was HSBC who said last week the pound is now

:08:35.:08:39.

the de facto opposition. If you see this in terms of Theresa May's

:08:40.:08:46.

comments or statements about a hard Brexit in March, do you expect her

:08:47.:08:50.

to modify that language to change the date, or is that now set in

:08:51.:08:56.

stone? I think that is a big question. The politics seem to have

:08:57.:09:00.

overtaken the economics in the last ten days. The economics may be

:09:01.:09:06.

hitting back now. The moment the great British public realises there

:09:07.:09:09.

is a real cost to pay for Brexit, the Government will have to take

:09:10.:09:13.

account of that, and I suspect in the middle of next year, that is

:09:14.:09:16.

exactly the situation we are going to be in, or there will be a crisis

:09:17.:09:22.

and politicians who want Brexit, never mind what, are going to have

:09:23.:09:26.

to think again. You know the inside story of how a supply chain works. I

:09:27.:09:32.

am expecting a lot of people will be surprised to hear that marmite was

:09:33.:09:35.

imported, or any of the other products that are not made here. Do

:09:36.:09:39.

you think we will start buying more locally now? There is a limit, we

:09:40.:09:47.

have always been big importers of food, 40% of our food is imported.

:09:48.:09:52.

You can do a little bit in terms of improving domestic production, but

:09:53.:09:55.

that could have happened at any time, there is no particular reason

:09:56.:10:01.

why each would strengthen now. Like the doctors, we suddenly say we need

:10:02.:10:04.

those extra doctors, we could have had them five years ago, but

:10:05.:10:08.

suddenly because of Brexit we want them. There are fundamental

:10:09.:10:14.

structural issues which will not go away by a knee jerk reaction to

:10:15.:10:20.

leaving the European Union. Lord Haskins, thank you for joining us.

:10:21.:10:25.

Can Boris Johnson stay on message four days in a row,

:10:26.:10:28.

the Prime Minister quipped just a week ago.

:10:29.:10:30.

The Foreign Secretary finds himself at the centre of his first

:10:31.:10:37.

discomfort after he called for protests outside

:10:38.:10:40.

the Russian Embassy as a response to Moscow's actions in Syria.

:10:41.:10:46.

This was him in the House of Commons yesterday.

:10:47.:10:48.

I would certainly like to see demonstrations outside

:10:49.:10:50.

If Russia continues on its current path, then I believe that great

:10:51.:10:54.

country is in danger of becoming a pariah nation, and if President

:10:55.:10:57.

Putin's strategy is to restore the greatness and glory of Russia,

:10:58.:11:00.

then I believe he risks seeing his ambition turned to ashes.

:11:01.:11:09.

The Foreign Secretary stands accused tonight by Russia of Russophobic

:11:10.:11:15.

hysteria - there's a word you never knew existed.

:11:16.:11:17.

Then this afternoon Jeremy Corbyn's spokesman suggested protestors might

:11:18.:11:21.

just as well target the US embassy, which he said was just as guilty

:11:22.:11:24.

Plenty there to put to Oksana Boyko of TV channel RT, previously

:11:25.:11:31.

Thank you very much indeed. I know it is late where you are. Have the

:11:32.:11:48.

remarks hit home in Moscow? Absolutely they hit home, not only

:11:49.:11:53.

in Moscow but also in Paris, his French counterpart questioned

:11:54.:11:58.

whether it was really the job of a Foreign Minister to call for public

:11:59.:12:03.

agitation or to organise public demonstrations, and this theme has

:12:04.:12:08.

been really taken up either Russian Foreign Ministry. The spokeswoman

:12:09.:12:12.

said that that played into Russia's long-held perception of the British

:12:13.:12:18.

foreign policy and intelligence establishment trying to manipulate

:12:19.:12:23.

public unrest and trying to use civil society for their own less

:12:24.:12:30.

than honourable goals. I don't know if the BBC audience knows, but there

:12:31.:12:34.

has been a well established evidence of a number of British agencies

:12:35.:12:41.

trying to run social media accounts for the opposition, supporting the

:12:42.:12:46.

so-called rebel groups in Syria by providing arms or by providing

:12:47.:12:54.

training... We don't know... Or at least not objecting to the policy.

:12:55.:12:59.

We have no evidence of that. But let me ask you simply, is Boris Johnson

:13:00.:13:09.

welcome in Moscow? Well, Russia will deal with any official. We do not

:13:10.:13:14.

have this concept of welcome or not welcoming anyone. Russia's Foreign

:13:15.:13:21.

Minister Sergei Lavrov just today said that Russia is planning a

:13:22.:13:24.

meeting this coming Saturday with Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey, and

:13:25.:13:29.

those are countries that have enormous differences with Russia

:13:30.:13:32.

when it comes to Syria, but Russia is ready to engage anyone if that

:13:33.:13:36.

will help to bring peace to Syria and to minimise the civilian death

:13:37.:13:40.

toll. So if Boris Johnson wants to do that, I'm sure he will be

:13:41.:13:43.

welcome. It is very interesting, Oksana, to hear Jeremy Corbyn's

:13:44.:13:50.

adviser saying he thought the ball might as well protest the US

:13:51.:13:52.

embassy. Is he right? Well, again, I am not in the

:13:53.:14:04.

position of deciding who is right or wrong, but if you actually cover

:14:05.:14:11.

that conflict and you try to be objective, and look at this conflict

:14:12.:14:16.

from all the sides, you would recognise that every major power

:14:17.:14:21.

that intervened in that conflict has committed mistakes, let's put it

:14:22.:14:26.

that way. I don't know if they could be called war crimes, but Americans,

:14:27.:14:31.

Turks, Russians, Syrians, they did indeed kill civilians on the ground.

:14:32.:14:36.

If you look at the American advance on my beesh, there are lots of

:14:37.:14:45.

reports of mass casualties there, so if you look at the act of all

:14:46.:14:51.

parties, you can see that all of them have the actions that have led

:14:52.:14:58.

to civilian casualties. D6 Putin is scared of protest outside the

:14:59.:14:59.

embassy is? LAUGHTER

:15:00.:15:13.

The question is maybe very British, but the answer would be very

:15:14.:15:18.

Russian, no, he's not. Thanks for joining us.

:15:19.:15:23.

This time next month, whatever happens overnight,

:15:24.:15:25.

the world will be looking at a brand new US President.

:15:26.:15:27.

Tonight, Donald Trump contemplated losing for the first time,

:15:28.:15:29.

telling voters that if he failed to win the Presidency it would be

:15:30.:15:32.

the single greatest waste of his time and money.

:15:33.:15:35.

So much of the last year has focused on the personalities

:15:36.:15:37.

A billionaire businessman and reality TV star

:15:38.:15:42.

and the first woman ever to have made it this far.

:15:43.:15:45.

But tonight, after a couple of extraordinary new polling

:15:46.:15:47.

numbers, we want to bring you the State of the Race

:15:48.:15:50.

Is it still possible for Trump to win?

:15:51.:15:54.

And why might the battleground states now include places that

:15:55.:15:58.

haven't changed their political allegiance for the last 60 years?

:15:59.:16:01.

It is not just the images which are the same every election, but that

:16:02.:16:12.

most of the states vote the same way by miles, red for republican and

:16:13.:16:18.

blues a Democrat, so the Republicans will always get Texas and the

:16:19.:16:24.

Democrats always get Delaware. This is a reminder of how Obama was

:16:25.:16:30.

victorious in 2008. Taking those traditional

:16:31.:16:34.

swing states of Ohio and Florida. Romney just managed to take Indiana

:16:35.:16:36.

and North Carolina off him. And even in this, the year of Trump,

:16:37.:16:41.

a lot of projections of the result Except over the last couple

:16:42.:16:44.

of days, two extraordinary Today's poll has Trump at just 26,

:16:45.:16:49.

level with Hillary Clinton, and only just outstripping

:16:50.:17:05.

the independent candidate, McCain won it with 59% of the vote,

:17:06.:17:07.

Romney with 55% to Obama's 41%. Now Trump is beating Hillary

:17:08.:17:20.

by just five points there, and this guy is winning the race

:17:21.:17:22.

there with the under 40s. What would you do if you were

:17:23.:17:32.

elected? About Aleppo? What is Aleppo? You are kidding? No. This is

:17:33.:17:43.

a big crowd. The winner is the first to reach 270 electoral college

:17:44.:17:48.

votes, the trouble for Donald Trump, even if he holds everything that

:17:49.:17:52.

Mitt Romney won, he is still 64 votes short, and Clinton comes to

:17:53.:17:57.

the race with a blue walk at the last six elections have seen 18

:17:58.:18:01.

states plus Washington, DC always voted Democrat, that is around 220

:18:02.:18:07.

electoral votes even before the race even starts. It could be there are

:18:08.:18:14.

shy Trump supporters out there who are not telling pollsters what they

:18:15.:18:17.

really think, but if that is true that there needs to be an awful lot

:18:18.:18:20.

of them to deliver him the presidency.

:18:21.:18:22.

Joining me now, Democrat pollster Celinda Lake from Washington DC

:18:23.:18:24.

and Republican strategist and pollster Frank Luntz -

:18:25.:18:26.

who works continuously with focus groups -

:18:27.:18:29.

Frank, I heard Trump speak of the massive electoral disadvantage she

:18:30.:18:39.

has, is that right in mathematic terms? -- he has. The Republicans

:18:40.:18:45.

have the bondage in terms of who comes out to vote, but the polling

:18:46.:18:50.

only matters in terms of who comes out to the polls -- have the

:18:51.:18:54.

advantage. It is almost impossible to move. He has deteriorated so much

:18:55.:19:01.

in the last ten days that it will be a serious uphill climb if he is to

:19:02.:19:06.

make it close on election day. The Democrats must feel they have this

:19:07.:19:12.

comfort ring, the blue wall, if she is already on 240, what you make of

:19:13.:19:17.

polls like Utah and Alaska which almost like they could be in play?

:19:18.:19:23.

-- do you make. We have polled for the Utah Democratic party and I

:19:24.:19:27.

would say that is very much in play. These are idiosyncratic states, Utah

:19:28.:19:33.

has a heavy more modern population, religious group which Mitt Romney

:19:34.:19:40.

was a part of, and which has despised Donald Trump from the

:19:41.:19:44.

beginning. Gary Johnson has real appeal there. There is no question

:19:45.:19:50.

Trump has put into play states like Arizona, Georgia, South Carolina,

:19:51.:19:54.

that have not been in play before, and I think the interesting question

:19:55.:20:00.

is what happens down ballot. The presidency, while not be taken for

:20:01.:20:05.

granted, and my good friend Frank is right, the Democrats have to focus

:20:06.:20:08.

on getting their vote out, but the question on the table is what

:20:09.:20:13.

happens underneath. Where do the disaffected voters go in the Senate

:20:14.:20:17.

and the house races? A spectacle it, presumably. What about postal voting

:20:18.:20:25.

and early voting? -- a split ticket. About a quarter is done ahead of

:20:26.:20:30.

time, and some states it could be 40-50%, a state like Oregon, which

:20:31.:20:35.

votes 100% by postal ballot, but make no mistake, the election has

:20:36.:20:40.

already gone and the voting has all the begun in the central states and

:20:41.:20:44.

even though Donald Trump did relatively well, I use the term

:20:45.:20:47.

relatively in the last debate, his negatives are so high and the

:20:48.:20:52.

hostilities towards him so great across the country, he will need an

:20:53.:20:58.

absolute... I don't use a home run, but he will need, if you can help me

:20:59.:21:07.

with cricket. Poker, inside strip. That is better. You have got to

:21:08.:21:14.

watch Florida, Pennsylvania, Clinton is now up, and Ohio, where they are

:21:15.:21:21.

even, and only one state Iowa, where he is leading, which is a

:21:22.:21:25.

traditional democratic state. I mentioned this idea of the shy Trump

:21:26.:21:32.

supporters, we are very sceptical of pollsters in this country, is it

:21:33.:21:35.

possible that we have just overlooked this, and that there is a

:21:36.:21:40.

very good ground war and a passion which replaces a ground war which

:21:41.:21:45.

could carry him through? There is no ground war, that will carry him

:21:46.:21:49.

through, the grassroots organisations are in a shambles.

:21:50.:21:53.

There is a very good ground ball on the side of the Republicans. You are

:21:54.:21:59.

right, there are two things going on, and I also believe in the secret

:22:00.:22:07.

Trump vote. In online surveys he does better, than in person surveys,

:22:08.:22:15.

especially with women. You could ask how could any woman vote for Donald

:22:16.:22:20.

Trump? But the other thing, who is going to turn out to vote? There are

:22:21.:22:24.

enthusiasts on beat Trump side who will turn out to vote, but Democrats

:22:25.:22:29.

have a great grassroots organisation -- the Trump. We will fight to get

:22:30.:22:36.

the unmarried people and the people of colour out. If there is a big

:22:37.:22:41.

female vote which doesn't admit to pollsters that they actually quite

:22:42.:22:45.

like Trump. I have been challenging that. They are very few voters who

:22:46.:22:51.

are undecided, they are uncommitted, the differences undecided are going

:22:52.:22:54.

back and forth between Clinton and surname Aqua, they are not many of

:22:55.:22:59.

those that, but the uncommitted say they will not vote but they haven't

:23:00.:23:05.

committed to a candidate -- Clinton and Trump. She is winning the

:23:06.:23:12.

uncommitted vote by two to one. The working-class votes at which has

:23:13.:23:16.

been the bulk of the Democratic support for the last 20 years, Trump

:23:17.:23:21.

is doing better amongst them the most Republicans ever do. And that

:23:22.:23:25.

is the only thing he has got left which could put him over the top.

:23:26.:23:30.

You would still call the Republicans the party of the right or has that

:23:31.:23:39.

disappeared? We would call the Republicans the party of the wrong.

:23:40.:23:45.

Yes, they are the more Conservative Party and that hasn't disappeared.

:23:46.:23:49.

In presidential politics it is also about character and about

:23:50.:23:55.

temperament and who is qualified to lead. And whether you have the

:23:56.:23:59.

character to be president, and in the end I think a lot of women in

:24:00.:24:04.

particular will ask themselves to things, is this man a bully, can I

:24:05.:24:09.

let my daughter watch the President of the United States on TV? Do I

:24:10.:24:15.

trust this man with the nuclear" Mark three check marks against him.

:24:16.:24:22.

-- the nuclear codes? What about the turnout question of what is this

:24:23.:24:25.

doing to political discourse and how willing people are to spend the

:24:26.:24:31.

money on the bus? It is giving everyone a headache, everyone is

:24:32.:24:36.

feeling like a child of divorced parents who does not want to live

:24:37.:24:42.

with either of them, make no mistake, 53% of people have an

:24:43.:24:45.

unfavourable opinion of Hillary Clinton, that's never happened to a

:24:46.:24:51.

democratic candidate, but it just happened 63% have an unfavourable

:24:52.:24:56.

opinion of him. If Trump had been locked in the Tower of London jail

:24:57.:24:59.

for a hundred days he would have been elected because the election

:25:00.:25:04.

would have been all about her. Now, she's not defending Hillary Clinton,

:25:05.:25:07.

she is attacking Trump, if it is about him, he loses, if it is about

:25:08.:25:16.

her, she loses. So they should both shut up. And God help us all. Thanks

:25:17.:25:19.

for joining us. A pathologist who questioned

:25:20.:25:22.

whether Shaken Baby Syndrome exists will appeal next week

:25:23.:25:24.

against a decision by the General After 32 years in her job,

:25:25.:25:26.

Waney Squier was denied the right to practice after she was found

:25:27.:25:31.

to have strayed beyond her field of expertise - accused of giving

:25:32.:25:34.

deliberately misleading She claims that she's been silenced

:25:35.:25:35.

because she challenges the establishment -

:25:36.:25:39.

and the medical orthodoxy around When is it right for doctors to

:25:40.:25:52.

challenge established science? That is the test for the judges next week

:25:53.:25:58.

when pathologist Waney Squier appeals against being struck off.

:25:59.:26:04.

She is coming here to the Appeal Court to try and clear her name.

:26:05.:26:08.

Seven months ago the General Medical Council through the book at her.

:26:09.:26:11.

They called her irresponsible, dishonest, and a liar, but she says

:26:12.:26:17.

she is only in trouble because in an out-of-court she dares to call

:26:18.:26:24.

Shaken Baby Syndrome rubbish. Around 250 people a year face criminal and

:26:25.:26:29.

family court cases on the basis of Shaken Baby Syndrome. The theory

:26:30.:26:34.

goes that the babies who suffer three symptoms together, blood over

:26:35.:26:37.

the brain, bleeding behind the eyes, and brain damage, must have been

:26:38.:26:44.

violently shaken. But sceptics like Waney Squier said there is no good

:26:45.:26:48.

science behind the theory. We got in touch with a number of experts who

:26:49.:26:53.

regularly give evidence for the prosecution of Shaken Baby Syndrome

:26:54.:26:55.

cases but none of them would appear on Newsnight. Now 350 scientists

:26:56.:27:02.

have written to the British medical Journal questioning the decision to

:27:03.:27:07.

strike doctor Waney Squier off and they include Professor Peter Fleming

:27:08.:27:13.

the man who cut cot deaths. And a pioneer of evidence -based medicine.

:27:14.:27:18.

And an internationally renowned paediatric pathologist. On Shaken

:27:19.:27:23.

Baby Syndrome the two sides could not be further apart. In March GMC

:27:24.:27:29.

said that doctor Waney Squier's evidence was deliberately

:27:30.:27:32.

misleading, dishonest, and it had the potential to subvert the course

:27:33.:27:39.

of justice. Her fellow pathologist disagrees. The problem is that in 40

:27:40.:27:47.

years we have not been able to demonstrate the traditional theory

:27:48.:27:52.

of Shaken Baby Syndrome and other things that were not considered

:27:53.:27:57.

before are being demonstrated like shortfalls cabbages similar

:27:58.:28:02.

features. -- can reduce similar features for the signs of archers --

:28:03.:28:10.

science advances frequently for the they were upset they were losing

:28:11.:28:14.

cases because of defence experts like her questioning Shaken Baby

:28:15.:28:19.

Syndrome. Do you still give evidence in these cases? No, I don't. Why

:28:20.:28:25.

not? Because I'm afraid of the possible consequences. Did you

:28:26.:28:29.

believe this day would come when you were inside? No. In March Newsnight

:28:30.:28:37.

spoke to Suzanne Holdsworth, her conviction for the murder of toddler

:28:38.:28:42.

Carl Fischer was overturned after Waney Squier re-examines the

:28:43.:28:48.

evidence. It felt like I'd won the lottery. It was amazing. Something I

:28:49.:29:01.

never thought I would do. So if it wasn't for people like Waney Squier,

:29:02.:29:07.

people like me with the imprisoned still. -- would be in prison still.

:29:08.:29:16.

Today there are few experts willing to challenge Shaken Baby Syndrome.

:29:17.:29:21.

In cases where science effectively determines guild or innocence, how

:29:22.:29:26.

fair can a trial be if the defence scientists are silenced in court?

:29:27.:29:31.

It is the real case of science against the law, the tribunal was

:29:32.:29:40.

pretty damning in what it found. John went through that. You have

:29:41.:29:49.

been reckless and irresponsible. That is correct, yes. You don't

:29:50.:29:54.

think they shouldn't be looking into you in this way, presumably? It is

:29:55.:30:00.

the role of the GMC, to look into this sort of complaint, but I

:30:01.:30:05.

challenge the determination and I'm taking this to appeal and that will

:30:06.:30:11.

be held next week. Do you accept any of these findings, that your

:30:12.:30:18.

research did not support your opinion, that you went outside your

:30:19.:30:21.

field, you were looking at things you shouldn't have? No, I don't. But

:30:22.:30:29.

I think... I don't want to discuss by own case now because it is coming

:30:30.:30:33.

to appeal next week and I don't think it is appropriate for me to do

:30:34.:30:36.

so. There are far more important issues we need to discuss and that

:30:37.:30:41.

is the fact that there is the evidence to support this hypothesis

:30:42.:30:44.

of Shaken Baby Syndrome and yet it is still being used every day in our

:30:45.:30:50.

courts as the basis on which is very important decisions are made about

:30:51.:30:54.

whether people might go to prison or babies are going to be taken away

:30:55.:30:55.

from their families. What should they use, then, if they

:30:56.:31:04.

are going to try to ascertain what happened? If they say your research

:31:05.:31:09.

doesn't stand up and you say their research is not solid enough, what

:31:10.:31:14.

should they go on? We need a thorough independent review of

:31:15.:31:18.

shaken baby syndrome. The courts need to know that there is no

:31:19.:31:22.

scientific evidence to support it. There never has been. It has been a

:31:23.:31:27.

hypothesis for 40 years, and research over the last four decades

:31:28.:31:31.

has not provided any evidence to show that this hypothesis has any

:31:32.:31:37.

validity at all, and it is not right that it should be still used in

:31:38.:31:42.

courts when it hasn't any validity, and this must be investigated. We

:31:43.:31:49.

need to have a real, full inquiry into it. Why would the GMC go to

:31:50.:31:56.

these lengths? This isn't a personal vendetta against you, presumably, it

:31:57.:31:59.

is a council trying to get the job right? The circumstances of the

:32:00.:32:03.

complaint against me were that the police were concerned that they were

:32:04.:32:09.

losing convictions because people like me were popping up and

:32:10.:32:13.

challenging shaken baby syndrome, and there have been attacked on

:32:14.:32:18.

people who challenge shaken baby syndrome not only in this country

:32:19.:32:22.

but in the United States and around the world, because we are a minority

:32:23.:32:26.

and we are challenging what is a mainstream hypothesis. And what do

:32:27.:32:33.

you think will happen as a result of if you are struck off, if the appeal

:32:34.:32:38.

doesn't go your way? It is very concerning, because as we have

:32:39.:32:41.

already seen, other people who would be in a position to come and give

:32:42.:32:44.

evidence in the courts in these cases won't do so. There are many

:32:45.:32:51.

people who could give very helpful evidence to the courts, but they are

:32:52.:32:55.

frightened to do so because they may suffer the same fate, which leaves

:32:56.:32:59.

us in the shameful position where our courts cannot get defence

:33:00.:33:04.

experts to come and assist in these cases where parents are being

:33:05.:33:10.

accused of abusing their infants. But it seems like those on the

:33:11.:33:15.

shaken baby side won't talk either. This sounds like an extraordinarily

:33:16.:33:19.

dangerous position to be in where we don't know how to get to the truth

:33:20.:33:23.

of this because both sides are either being silenced or choosing

:33:24.:33:26.

silence. And that is obviously wrong. If the other side don't wish

:33:27.:33:33.

to speak, why not? We need a public debate, a public inquiry to see what

:33:34.:33:38.

is really behind shaken baby syndrome and if it is suitable to be

:33:39.:33:42.

used in court. Waney Squier, thank you for coming in.

:33:43.:33:46.

You know how we like to send you off to bed with a song in your heart?

:33:47.:33:50.

Well, how about this: a solar flare will one day turn the Internet

:33:51.:33:53.

haywire, leading to the end of civilisation as we know it.

:33:54.:33:56.

That cheery prospect is raised in a new documentary, Lo Behold,

:33:57.:33:59.

by the acclaimed and idiosyncratic filmmaker, Werner Herzog.

:34:00.:34:01.

He'll be talking about it as part of a UK wide screening of the film

:34:02.:34:05.

tomorrow night at the BFI London Film Festival.

:34:06.:34:07.

Here's our own inscrutable cineaste, Stephen Smith.

:34:08.:34:10.

We have a certain reverence. In his adventures in the Internet with

:34:11.:34:23.

artificial intelligence, Werner Herzog's gift for the unexpected

:34:24.:34:28.

doesn't desert him. He finds a robot maker in love with his star centre

:34:29.:34:33.

forward. This year is robot eight. Its pattern includes four green dots

:34:34.:34:39.

on top, and it is one of my favourites, actually. Beautiful. Do

:34:40.:34:49.

you love it? Yes, we do. Menus night met the jet-lagged but pretty much

:34:50.:34:52.

in control Werner Herzog earlier today, we asked a well-known

:34:53.:34:54.

football fan if robot layers could be the real thing. If robots becomes

:34:55.:35:05.

mechanically so good that they can run like a human, then they can do

:35:06.:35:10.

it, because strategically, they are very far advanced, and you see

:35:11.:35:16.

computer programmes, how for example they have a free kick, and how they

:35:17.:35:21.

strategise positioning, it is very impressive. Sooner or later,

:35:22.:35:27.

somebody would have to teach them how to cheat. They may already be

:35:28.:35:35.

cheating. We do not know exactly. But we do know that whatever is

:35:36.:35:40.

within human beings will eventually end up on the Internet, and in our

:35:41.:35:48.

anonymity, the human race is a very vile and very debased, and it is not

:35:49.:35:54.

the Internet that is debased, it is the human people. Werner Herzog's

:35:55.:36:03.

beautifully composed oeuvre, which I have done my best to emulate, is

:36:04.:36:09.

surrounded by fan boy reverence. Is it possible that somebody has missed

:36:10.:36:15.

the humour? When you are sitting in the theatre, you feel the rubles of

:36:16.:36:18.

laughter, nobody can miss the humour. The biggest laughter is when

:36:19.:36:23.

you have dissed monks in saffron robes against the empty skyline of

:36:24.:36:31.

Chicago. Then we met some stragglers left behind. They are all on their

:36:32.:36:38.

smartphones. Have the monks stopped meditating? Have they stopped

:36:39.:36:44.

praying? They all seem to be tweeting.

:36:45.:36:56.

Laughter doesn't stop from beginning to end during this sequence. It is

:36:57.:37:03.

like our programme! That is good to. We wanted to get a quick exterior

:37:04.:37:11.

shot of Herzog in his native habitat. There is probably a long

:37:12.:37:14.

German compound noun to describe his good cheer in the face of adversity.

:37:15.:37:22.

Nobody cares about my films. The example... What is that? The last

:37:23.:37:27.

time he spoke to the BBC, someone shot him with an air rifle.

:37:28.:37:34.

Strangely enough, I seem to be a statistical anomaly. I have

:37:35.:37:36.

attracted disasters. You would never guess from close kin

:37:37.:37:50.

ski's tentative performance that he and director Hertzog what always at

:37:51.:38:01.

loggerheads. There was the steamship that Herzog hauled over a mountain.

:38:02.:38:06.

Nobody believed in moving the ship over the mountain. A delegation of

:38:07.:38:11.

actors and technical people came to me.

:38:12.:38:18.

Give it a go! And tried to dissuade me from my own

:38:19.:38:30.

madness. And it was suspicious. The only thing that counts is what you

:38:31.:38:36.

see on the screen. When he is not directing, Herzog has

:38:37.:38:44.

been known to lend some middle European menace to the multiplex.

:38:45.:38:49.

You say nothing, but I see defiance in your eyes. That is a look I have

:38:50.:38:53.

seen many, many times when the soldier comes and you watch how he

:38:54.:38:58.

dies, it will change you. You will want to forget me then.

:38:59.:39:02.

Sources close to Herzog told us he wouldn't disparage an offer to play

:39:03.:39:13.

James Bond baddie. Let's close with an aphorism.

:39:14.:39:18.

It is better to ask the question that is deep and strange and

:39:19.:39:22.

unexpected than having an answer to everything.

:39:23.:39:27.

Werner Herzog on the rights of question to ask. Let's just take you

:39:28.:39:32.

through the papers before we go. In the times, a story that ministers

:39:33.:39:36.

are hiding a report on migrant numbers, it suggests that only 1% of

:39:37.:39:40.

international students break the terms of their Visa by refusing to

:39:41.:39:45.

leave, research which they say threatens to undermine Theresa May's

:39:46.:39:52.

plan to crackdown on student recruitment. They also go with the

:39:53.:39:55.

Marmite row. The Financial Times has the story about the UK facing ?20

:39:56.:40:01.

billion Brexit divorce Berlin Brussels budget wrangle, and it also

:40:02.:40:08.

highlights the Marmite. The Daily Mail has why did Will Young walk-out

:40:09.:40:16.

on Strictly and Theresa: I'm siding with Britain's who voted for Brexit.

:40:17.:40:23.

Now don't go away - No Such Thing As The News

:40:24.:40:27.

But we leave you with a postscript to the current craze for dressing up

:40:28.:40:31.

In Whitehaven, Cumbria, the local fancy dress store has

:40:32.:40:35.

deployed someone dressed as Batman so the local children can sleep

:40:36.:40:38.

But based on our brief research, we think it might not end well.

:40:39.:40:44.

You shouldn't have made Captain Clown mad!

:40:45.:40:51.

OK, captain! Give it the old heave Ho.

:40:52.:41:16.

This could be the start of a beautiful friendship.

:41:17.:41:26.

Good evening. High-pressure has dominated the charts, but low

:41:27.:41:30.

pressure is coming our way.

:41:31.:41:32.

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