11/10/2016 Newsnight


Whitehall's plan to keep paying into EU funds after Brexit, Trump supporters, officials are overruled on the Garden Bridge and the truth about Oskar Schindler.

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Leaving the EU was supposed to get us back the billions we send


If we vote leave we can take back control of our borders and huge sums


of money, ?10 billion a year net. We reveal how the government


is considering continuing to pay billions to Europe for access


to the single market I was getting beaten up for 72 hours


on all the networks for Locker room talk, what ever


you want to call it. Donald Trump's behaviour


may outrage millions, but are some just as ready to ignore


it for their dream of a better life? I don't think it can get any


worse than it is now. I don't know if we'll ever see


someone like this again. The plan to memorialise


Oskar Schindler in the famous factory where he saved more


than a thousand Jews So was Schindler more


a crook, and a Nazi Spy I'll be asking an historian


how we should view him. The clamour at Westminster for MPs


to have a vote on its Brexit strategy before triggering


the formal process for leaving the EU will reach the floor


of the House tomorrow in a Labour led debate, but what will that


strategy actually be? There is one aspect of Britain's


relationship with Brussels on which she has been deafeningly


silent - the billions we contribute Could that be because we won't be


getting them back any time soon? Our political editor


Nick Watt has the story. Every week we send ?350 million to


Brussels. Money that is wasted. Remember that talk about ?350


million in the referendum campaign and how it would be coming back


after we left the EU? I be noticed hardly anyone in government is


talking about that now -- have you noticed hardly anyone. To everyone


here this morning, and the millions beyond... When Theresa May laid out


her red lines Brexit she spoke about sovereignty and immigration but


pointedly said nothing about getting her money back. Newsnight has


learned that senior Whitehall officials believe the UK may have to


make generous contributions to the EU even after Brexit as a way of


securing preferential trading terms. One member of the Cabinet has told


Newsnight that the UK is likely to have to pay quite a lot to secure


access to the single market and an insider has described this as the


dog that has embarked. First they will have to contend with vote Leave


campaigners. It was part of the holy trinity of the Brexit campaign, you


can't have one without the other, that this what we campaign for and


that is why the British people voted Leave, we have the bargaining chips


and there is no need for Theresa May to capitulate, and if she does she


might find herself out of a job because that is not the Brexit that


the British people voted for and that is not what even her own


backbenches and some of Cabinet team voted for. Some members of the


Brexit secretary David Davis's camp have said the UK should no longer


make payments to the EU but Newsnight understands that officials


are wondering whether the UK may end up paying into a fund to help


develop new EU member states in Eastern Europe, Poland but like to


preserve the bite of its citizens to work in the UK, may decide it has


more to gain from financial support -- Poland would like to preserve the


right. I imagine we will have to pay something close to what Norway pays.


Charles Grant is convinced that Theresa May is keeping her options


open. The fact that Theresa May has singled out the fact we will not


accept the European Court of justice rulings and that we will restrict


immigration but has said nothing about budget contributions makes me


think she might be prepared to make such contributions, to a development


fund for Eastern Europe that will be a quasi-EU budget. Some were Finn


campaigners are -- some Leave campaigners are sanguine about this.


It might be the case that we have to contribute to stabilise their budget


for maybe 3-5 years but the point is, at the end of that we can say


no, we don't want to put a penny more into your kitty and we don't


want to contribute your budget and that choice will be with us. The


chairman of the House of Commons Treasury select MIDI says Britain


might need to make a payment in perpetuity. -- -- we want to fall


back immediately on WTO rules, that would risk an economic shock and an


economic downturn given the high degree of trading at the moment


between Britain and the EU. It was mixed signals for the Prime Minister


this week as she met fellow EU leaders, but back home one of the


leading lights of the Bo Diddley camp said they would be comfortable


with the UK making half of its current contributions -- leading


lights of the vote Leave camp. Nick Watt reporting -


the government has told us they're not providing a running commentary


on their negotiating position, but we have been very clear that


all decisions about taxpayers' money Joining us is John Redwood MP -


a leading Brexit campaigner. All this talk about what Brexit was


actually four, what do you think it is for? It is very clear, we voted


to leave, that is what it said on the ballot paper and be consistent


slogan of the campaign was to take back control and when we were asked


for more detail we always itemised borders and money and laws. It was


very clear what we were voting for. Money was very clear. It was a


matter of contention how much it actually was. This question ?350


million a week, it was brandished on buses and spoken about, but it is


not being spoken about now. Quite rightly the Prime Minister is not


going to give you a running commentary. It is silly of the BBC


to run these stories. She mentioned immigration. We have not sent the


letter and there are no negotiations on anything because we have not even


notified them formerly we are leaving which she says she will do


early in the New Year and you can't make up these stories because some


official in Whitehall is not happy. They are not made up. I'm sure the


officials exist, but they are not speaking for the government, and as


you have reported the government is not going to provide a running


commentary and there is no shred of evidence that the government wishes


to give away this money. If we gave away the full net contribution. ?10


billion. That would be twice as much as the amount we have to pay in


tariffs, so that would be a very stupid deal. She said in her speech


about sovereignty and immigration, but she did not talk about the money


at all. Money is part of sovereignty. What do you think of


the idea of a contribution? You are not sovereign if you have to keep


paying money away to a foreign power. It depends how you are


paying, if you are paying to a different fund. Not necessarily


money that is going into a EU budget. It is a stupid level of


detail which is not on the government's agenda and not part of


any formal discussions. If there is a situation where we dealt with free


movement of people and where we had access to the single market. Where


we have control of it? Yes. We will have access to the single market,


America and China have access to the single market, but they don't have


any special deals with the European Union. You don't understand what the


issue is. At the moment, the question of financial service, of


huge importance, there has to be a dear? There are various ways this


can be done, the United States has lots of good access to the European


market. Do you realise there are many more passports on the continent


into London because we have the biggest market than passports out of


London onto the continent? Why do these continentals want to lose


their passports? The ones I speak to want to keep their passports and we


will say to them they can keep their passports and we will have our own.


It has to be a negotiation. It doesn't have to be. You think we


should send a letter in get out, I know that. And offer them very


generously to carry on trading as we are at the moment, they have a


massive surplus with us and that suits us well, and when they reflect


on it, the member states will say this is what they want. Is Angela


Merkel going to say I'm recommending a 10% tariff on German cars? She


will not say that. Francois Hollande, is it going to say to


French agriculture, I recommend you pay a high tariff into Britain when


you sell cheese and wine? No way. If there is a negotiation and it comes


down to a contribution, a financial contribution into a development of


East European countries. You pay them money to buy their imports,


absurd. There are officials who have a different view, apparently. I


don't think you will find the Brexit ministers have a different view, to


the extent they are allowed to have one. If David Davis, Boris Johnson,


Liam Fox, the Brexit is committed they failed to get a deal without


financial contributions from Britain into a EU fund, should they resign?


-- the Brexiteers. This is a set of silly questions. We haven't even


sent the letter and I've made it very clear that there is need to pay


money into the EU budget because they want to sell us their goods.


John Redwood, thanks for joining us. "The shackles are off", Donald Trump


announced today on twitter after House Speaker Paul Ryan became


the latest senior Republican to back away from the candidate,


following the publication of a video showing Trump bragging


about groping women. He went on to say that "disloyal"


Republicans are more of an impediment to victory


than as he called her "crooked Then he went into Twitter over drive


throwing insults at John McCain Many in both parties,


Republican and Democrat have been wondering aloud how


it is that the election race, What's going on that so many


will vote for a candidate who stands Gabriel Gatehouse has been


to the town of Youngstown, Ohio, Trace the arc of American


history and it runs In the golden age of postwar


America politicians came to Youngstown with the promise


of an ever brighter future. As the country thrived,


so did this city. In Youngstown today there


is a feeling that America Donald Trump promises to make


America great again. And beyond the bluster,


the buffoonery, the offence of his campaign, that is a message


that resonates deeply Youngstown was once


at the heart of a thriving A place of opportunity


and hard work. A place where each generation


could expect to be a little more Somewhere along the way


something went wrong. We need to, for lack of a better


term, stop the bleeding here. We've lost enough and we


can't stand any more. In Ohio, the average household


is nearly $10,000 a year worse off than it was at


the turn-of-the-century. Not a bigot, just a thoughtful


American father of four who sees no future for his family


in the status quo. You cannot have a new car


and a new house and that's why, the idea that we would have it


better than our parents, We've done a real good job


of creating entry-level positions. You know, there is a new McDonald's


open, you know, minimum wage, Plaza Doughnuts opened its doors


on the 22nd of November 1963, the day John F.


Kennedy was shot dead. In that America the Democratic party


could rely on the blue-collar vote. What he stood for in 1963


has nothing in common with the Democratic party


of today. They have lost touch with us


as the working class. They don't represent us,


and the Republican side don't And now we have a man who is


standing on the outside of that. Trump is effectively


a third-party candidate. In our quest to understand this


phenomenon we are going to be spending time with people who work


two, even three jobs People look at Donald Trump


and they say he is a clown, he's a buffoon, he's


a bankrupt businessman. He took the risk


and he created jobs. Obviously he knows much


more about business He does not know as much


about having a second This is true, this is true,


he knows probably nothing The steel mills began


to close in the late 1970s. Throughout the 80s and 90s


and into the new century In 40 years the population


of Youngstown has shrunk by half. Even in the suburbs, behind a facade


of affluence, many middle-class families are barely clinging


to a lifestyle they could once More than likely I am


thinking our kids will If you walk around there are so many


people looking for work When she lost her job


as a technician in a medical centre, Carrie and her husband Anthony set


up a real estate business. They went bankrupt and Youngstown


took yet another hit. Why do you think Trump is the person


who can sort that out? My version of that is


he's not a politician. They've had control for so long,


it's always been career politicians that run,


there has never been anybody It's the same old, that is all


you're going to get, He could shake it up to such


an extent that it could fall apart. No, because I don't think it can get


any worse than it is now. It's never going to get better


and this is like our one chance I don't know if we'll ever see


somebody like this again. Some of the other things that


people, that have made people feel uncomfortable,


especially some of the remarks he has made about women,


does that bother you? I think our media


slaughters him all the time. I mean you turn it on and they just


rip him apart constantly. And that makes me like him more,


they are actually doing a bad job, if they want me to dislike him


they are making me like him more because I look at the media not


liking him, the Republicans who don't like him,


the Democrats who don't, there are so many people,


I've never seen so many people Do you have any more to say


about those comments Trumps remarks about women may


eventually prove to be his undoing. I don't even think she is loyal


to Bill, you want to know the truth. Donald Trump has charged


into Washington wielding And really, folks really,


why should she be, right? Yet millions of Americans


are still willing him on. He calls his opponent a traitor


and a criminal. He wants to ban Muslims


from entering the US. He's even refused to reject


the support of the Ku Klux Klan. But he presents these


remarks as an attack But if I get elected president


I will bring it back. You won't find much


support for Donald Trump His assault on the norms


of political discourse feels dangerous, as if it


could legitimise a racist backlash. They need to reel him


in and check him. Ryan Gilchrist has run this barber


shop for 20 years. Like most people in Youngstown


he voted for Obama. But after eight years


he says little has changed. I was glad to see that a black


man achieved that. On those premises, and those


premises only am I glad But, did he really help


us in this community? I'm not going to say


that he really did. Many will vote for Hillary but many


won't vote at all. Somehow in this election it's Trump


who's taken on the mantle for change and even here there are


a few who think Trump Maybe it's a Hail Mary,


what we call a Hail Mary, just throw the ball up and see


who catches it. But it would be great


to have a different view, even if it's just for four years,


just for four years, just give this man an opportunity


to see what he can do differently. There's a battle going on that's


as much about what can be said As the gap between rich and poor has


widened so too has the gulf between liberal and conservative


America. And in that space the Trump


candidacy is formenting There are still blue


collar jobs in Ohio. This company makes parts


for pressurised storage tanks. Chad, who we met


earlier, works here. Among these men there


is a feeling of alienation. A sense that they've lost control


of America's cultural identity. I understand the gay thing


and I can live with all that, but when we start supplying


bathrooms and different types of rooms and all this other kind


of stuff and titles, things for people that don't


want to be considered a man or a woman I think


we are going too far. It does feel, I don't know,


maybe you don't feel it, You know, because you are a racist


or a bigot or a homophobe, You're no longer allowed


to have an opinion. And that's a key thing


about Donald Trump isn't it, he says things that nobody


else says, right? I don't always agree


with everything that comes out of his mouth but,


he says it. And we shouldn't be


afraid to say it. You know, that shouldn't be


a problem, here of all Whatever happens to Trump,


the political parameters Many people see their country run


by an elite whose allegiances, cultural and economic,


lie not with them but with other You know, what do we produce


that's being exported? And this in a way is the system


that the whole globalised world is now based


on and Trump is saying... Why do we care about


the global system? Everything about Trump's campaign,


from his crude rhetoric to his cut out the dead wood attitude,


it all adds up to one This is America, where you can


still have it all. The story of America today is not


one of universal decline. In many parts this is


still a country of vast But the middle-class is no


longer growing. 20 miles south of Youngstown


is the great Ohio River. It forms in Pennsylvania, flows west


to the Mississippi and then south This artery which has transported


pioneers and traders, weapons and steel, has been


a witness to the building of America The Trump phenomenon transcends


the traditional divisions It's an expression of a much more


fundamental shift in This is about a breakdown in


the relationship between the people America is a country


where rituals matter. In Youngstown's relatively affluent


suburbs the high school football These are people who have


a track record of picking We've come here to catch up


with Carrie, whose daughter is busy out there somewhere waving


the flag for her team. For Carrie, her conservative values


are best served by a man who threatens to bring


down the establishment. People in Britain and in Europe


and in other parts of the world are quite worried by some


of the things Donald Trump says. To me I think it's time to put


America first, I really, I feel like what's going on right


now, it isn't working so why not try If it fails, we've failed under


Obama. It's worth the risk


is what you're saying? I think we have to try


something different, America is contemplating


a leap into the unknown. The normal rules appear


to be suspended. Their standard bearer may be


an offensive showman but millions still believe he's the one to make


America great again. Gabriel Gatehouse reporting -


joining me now from New York is Catherine Rampell


who is an opinion columnist good evening Catherine. Before we


talk about the Twitter storm tonight from Donald Trump can we talk about


Youngstown, it was quite clear that these are people who have thought


about this a lot and whatever flaws Donald Trump as they are willing to


overlook them or they are irrelevant to them because they think they've


got the last throw of the dice with him. Yes I think that's exactly


right. They think that politics as usual is not helping them, that the


politicians who are already in Washington, a contingent that is


apparently in cahoots with Hillary Clinton, do not have their best


interests at heart. Donald Trump represent something else. Maybe


that'll be something bad, maybe it will be something good, he is like


an experimental drug, you will try something different and maybe the


side effects will be terrible but maybe there will be an upside. I


think that's the psychology around a lot of the fervour supporting Donald


Trump. After Paul Ryan the house speaker said he would no longer


support Donald Trump Donald Trump said the shackles were off and a lot


of people tweeted goodness me we did not know they were on in the first


place. I wonder if in these last few weeks things will get not only dirty


but also divisive within the Republicans? The Republican National


committee has come out behind him but 40 senior Republican senators


and Congress have come out against him. 30 of whom have actively said


they would vote for him. Yes, the question is how many will join them.


There were a number of politicians who came out against Donald Trump,


Republicans from his own party, immediately after that table leaked.


After the debate happened on Sunday night when Donald Trump did not come


out and completely implode, that seemed to staunch the bleeding. If


Republicans are not wholeheartedly endorsing him it does seem to have


stopped the steady trickle away from his campaign. For several months


now, arguably since he started over a year ago there has been an uneasy


relationship between the Republican leadership in the United States and


Donald Trump where they have not been wholly supportive of him but


they are afraid of alienating his devoted followers, the Republican


base. So going forward, they are having to balance whether they


should openly condemn him, whether they should openly and endorse him,


perhaps vote for his rival Hillary Clinton who is despised by the


Republican base, whether they should do all those things and potentially


risk turning they are more loyal followers against them because those


followers are also devoted to Donald Trump. Yes, and this idea that he is


emerging as a third-party candidate in a sense, an independent


candidate, and when all the tawdry stuff comes and goes and goes round,


fundamentally what people are looking for is an answer to their


economic woes and they don't see that with any of the elites in


Washington. They don't seem to, there is also a


question about how much this is based on economics and economic


stagnation and I feel for the Americans who feel their standards


of living have not improved and in fact they might have deteriorated.


There's another side to Donald Trump's appeal, the angry white,


feeling disenfranchised voter but people who feel like there face in


society, relative place, has been falling and there are minorities who


are rising maybe at their expense, they see this as a 0-sum game, and


there is a very large part of his rhetoric which is explicitly


appealing to those feelings of racial resentment, ethnic


resentment, so it is not entirely about economics, although that is


clearly a part of the picture. Thanks for joining us.


Now to a Grande Projet, that you might have noticed


Newsnight has developed a fondness for discussing.


Yes, it's London's Garden Bridge project.


According to a report today by the National Audit Office


government ministers have repeatedly handed over public money


against official advice so that now the taxpayer stands to lose


?20 million if the bridge project is cancelled.


The idea is the Londoners to have a beautiful way to cross the river


Thames on foot, but there has been opposition to this idea from the


very beginning and some people say it is a vanity project, of Boris


Johnson and the former Chancellor George Osborne, but as the costs


have crept up it is currently ?185 million, and as revealed by


Newsnight, the funding shortfall has grown, those concerns are being felt


more widely. Today the National Audit Office has disclosed that at


the outset officials in the Department for Transport thought


there was a significant risk that the garden bridge would approve poor


value for money for the taxpayer. -- proved. Despite that ministers


ploughed ahead, agreeing to fund the project to the Chudinov ?13 million.


-- to the tune ?30 million. The concerns about value for money,


though, meant that the government initially placed a cap on how much


could be spent before building work started. But we learned today that


they increased it on three separate occasions. The Department for


Transport's financial exposure of how much they would lose if the


bridge failed increase Tom and original ?8.2 million to ?25 million


-- increased from an original. It is slightly lower now because the


Transport Secretary has reduced the amount of costs he is willing to


cover. The big jump was too much for top officials, and having originally


not encouraged the original cap, they have now sought ministerial


direction and they have asked ministers to take responsibility for


a decision they don't agree with. Philip Rutland wrote to the then


Transport Secretary expressing his concerns.


A civil servant asking for ministerial direction is not common,


recent example was over the funding of the children's charity Kids


Company, but despite concerns raised by his top officials, the then


Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin agreed a further ?50


million of taxpayers money to be put potentially on the line, because he


thought failure to underwrite the garden bridge would increase the


risk of it failing altogether and if that happened the 35mm pounds of


public money already spent would be gone -- 35mm pounds. The one


question remaining unanswered, why was it so important for this project


to go ahead? We have officials at the Department for Transport saying


this is high risk and poor value for money and they were repeatedly


overruled by ministers. What we don't know is what it was given so


much priority. We may not know the answer to that yet but today's


report leaves little doubt about the difficulties facing the garden


bridge. There remains a significant risk that the project will not go


ahead. Schindler's Ark by Thomas Keneally,


and the Speilberg film inspired by it, Schindler's List,


brought to the world versions of the story of Oskar Schindler,


a double dealing Nazi party industrialist whose actions saved


more than 1,000 Jews. But plans to turn his now derelict


textile plant, which was the only Nazi concentration


camp on Czechoslovakia, and where he is reputed to have


planned his act of heroism, into a museum to Schindler,


have run into opposition. There are other versions


of the Schindler story which are much more complex,


and for some Czechs, the fact that their countryman


was a Nazi spy is a reason not His name is synonymous throughout


the world with heroism. Nazi businessman Oskar Schindler,


played here by Liam Neeson in Stephen Spielberg's classic


Schindler's List, was portrayed in the film as an almost


saintly figure. But the real Oskar Schindler,


it seems, might not have His factory which once saved


the lives of more than a thousand Jews is now derelict,


but plans to turn it into a museum have met opposition


in what is now the Czech Republic. Schindler, who spied


on Czechoslovakia for the Germans before World War II, is accused


of being a national traitor. He is remembered by many


as a drinker, a womaniser, One writer has even


accused him of lying That Schindler was no


saint is not disputed. But, say his defenders, a flawed


character did not prevent him So, have we been hoodwinked


by Hollywood into believing Or do the imperfections


in his character only serve to make his story


all the more remarkable? Dr Helen Fry is an historian


and Honorary research fellow Do you understand why there is this


conflict over the establishing of a museum to him? Yes, the difficulty


is the character of Oskar Schindler, very complex, but he is also viewed


as like a traitor because he was spying for Germany as a Czech


national, which is now the Czech Republic, in the 30s. In the barn up


to 1938, before Germany overran Czechoslovakia in 1939 -- run up.


And he was also involved in the plans for the invasion of Poland?


Absolutely, he was arrested by the cheque covenant, which was then


check Slovakia -- the Czech government. The land was given over


to Germany, he was released, which is remarkable, as part of the


agreement. In 1993 he had his title of righteous Gentile and the Jews


recognised his heroism, is that enough? In his lifetime, that is


quite rare, because often it takes a long time to be back nice and it


needs eyewitnesses, and that is the crucial thing and one of concern,


with the passing of eyewitnesses, how stories and others like this are


told. Interesting. Eyewitness stories are now being denied by some


people. And yet you think eyewitness was the best form of testament?


There is a worrying development in what was the former Eastern Bloc, in


the Czech Republic, and I've also seen this in the concentration camp


north of Berlin, which was behind the Iron Curtain at one point, this


denial of Jewish suffering. In Sachsenhausen, for example, there


was a denial that Jews actually died there, that had suffered there.


Expressed quite openly? Yes, I was told to stop filming, and that was


quite a shock and very disturbing. You do a double check about your


faxes historian and you think, no, I've interviewed people who have


survived and who have survived such an house, but this is mainly a


tribute to Russian suffering -- Sachsenhausen. There has been an


upswing in this kind of revisionism? More studies need to be carried out


into whether this is part of a trend of a rising anti-Semitism or whether


this is a anti-Jewish... It is not based on historical reality, that is


the danger, and when you have a coming from the mouthpiece of


politicians in the Czech Republic, that is very dangerous, because they


are respected. The other way to put this is on the balance, and some


people in the Czech Republic would say that it is no doubt he saved


many Jews but he was also a traitor to their country and they do not


want him lauded because he is such a traitor in the run up to the Second


World War. It is a bit of balance. It is. The Guardian reported about


one of the Czech Republic MPs who has come out and said there is


evidence that Schindler said Jews, -- no evidence that Schindler saved


Jews, that is a very concerning shift towards what is essentially an


anti-Semitic Holocaust Miles Storey and we have got to be alert and


guarded and we cannot assume that in every generation that these stories


are safe -- denial story. You hope the museum will be built? I hope so,


I hope there will be enough people east and west to come together to


make it happen. Thanks for joining us. Britain has become a


record-breaker. Guinness officials have confirmed that the new


Queensferry Crossing is the world's largest freestanding balanced


cantilever. For a short while at least until it connects at both


ends, but for now we can enjoy this in all its world beating glory.


A bit more cloud around and a bit more breeze, not as Chile to start


tomorrow morning. Generally more cloud in the skies above, cloudy in


eastern Scotland and North East


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